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The Forum > General Discussion > Another Massacre in Chicago....

Another Massacre in Chicago....

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"Six found slain in Gage Park home, including child: 'We don't know what happened'"

This is another in a long line of similar happenings in Chicago and across the USA.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-multiple-people-dead-southwest-side-20160204-story.html
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 2:36:00 PM
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I'm not sure that's a massacre by Chicago terms.
One person in Chicago is shot every 2.8hrs.
Just one suburb has had over 40 shooting victims already this year (gang violence) and the total for Chicago this year is 312 shooting victims.

You might think with stats like these I might be against guns, but its a complicated situation in that Chicago already is a 'gun free zone' and has stringent gun control laws in effect.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 3:49:01 PM
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"However, they [police] do not believe that the killing was random and believe that the family was specifically targeted, saying the murders may be linked to a drug cartel."

If true its just another example of the mayhem caused by the 'War on Drugs'. Legalise the bloody things and there'll be no need for wars on drugs or wars between dealers and cartels. The homicide rate in the US will fall by at least 50%, insurance premiums by a similar amount. The goals will empty. Drugs could be sold under government licence, controlled and monitored. Addicts would get a fixed known dose so overdoses would fall.

Prohibition never works. Never.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 3:53:55 PM
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Are you sure it's not working mhaze. As a way to have an undesirable element of society exterminate themselves, I get the impression it might be working very well.

The losers are gone, & the cops have a reason to lock up the winners. What better system could their be?
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 4:23:25 PM
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I am amazed that in a gun-toting country like America, especially in Chicago, that there wasn't someone in that house that could have defended the others against the killer with the knife?

Obviously, the good ol' US God given right to bear arms didn't help at all in this case.
If drugs were involved, I guess murder is often the result, no matter by what means.
It is very sad, especially for the child.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 8:08:06 PM
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Suse,

Chicago has very, very strict gun laws and the ordinary citizen in Chicago is deterred from having any effective means of self defence, just like Australia.

Wonder why the Australian media didn't highlight this massacre?
Maybe because it involved knives.

Wonder is that the Greens didn't hop on the bandwagon and start screaming for stricter knife laws.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 8:46:17 PM
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"gun-toting country like America, especially in Chicago"

That is your uninformed prejudice at work. In fact, Chicago does have the most restrictive gun laws or close to it, of anywhere.

What you and ors do when you follow the lemmings, placing trust in the word of politicians and others with a secondary political agenda is roll logs in the way of change.

It is not convenient for Obama for instance to be accountable for his own ineffectiveness in combating violence. It is far easier for the Obamas of the world and they are on both sides of politics, he is more hypocritical, to avoid the real, not so easily identified or resolved, causes of violence, such as the forever escalating drug trafficking and the gangs involved in it.

Why is serious violence so predominately black on black, gangs and drug culture? Obama isn't interested. He is a politician and populism and easy 'solutions' are the order of the day. One thing is certain though, which is that Obama and other politicians are wilfully and cynically ignoring and even denying advice that is being afforded to them by well-meaning, intelligent and experienced people within his administration.

As long as career politicians can get away with that they will always be able to block the entry of the far better qualified and able men and women who are always there in business waiting for the call and opportunity to take up a leadership role for a time in government.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 8:49:19 PM
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What are you on about Onthebeach? Do you deny that the US has a far worse gun culture than Australia? Of course you can't.

As for Chicago, one doesn't need to look far to get informed about their continuing gun problems, regardless of the 'stricter' gun laws you haven't cited. Uninformed maybe?

Apparently 2015 finished in Chicago with 431 shooting murders, and 26 stabbing deaths.
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2015-chicago-murders/explore-data

These were just the deaths, there were 2986 shooting victims in Chicago in 2015 alone.
I would hate to have seen the figures before if these are improved!
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 10:13:38 PM
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Suseonline, "Do you deny that the US has a far worse gun culture than Australia?"

It has all been laid out in front of you so many times. Once again, sit back, have a glass of cold water and educate yourself,

Chicago,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFEwh_6_Ju8
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 9 February 2016 11:18:20 PM
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Suse,

"These were just the deaths, there were 2986 shooting victims in Chicago in 2015 alone."

Just imagine how much worse it could have been if Chicago was not a gun free zone.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 7:39:16 AM
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Hi Suse,

"Strict" gun laws in the state of Illinois include the right to carry a concealed hand gun, you don't have to have it strapped to your leg Dodge City style, but hidden in your coat. You never know when you might run into a sassy backdating checkout chick down at the market and that gun will come in handy.

You need a $10 licence to carry a gun in Illinois;

The cost of FOID card is $10.00. Applicants must be Illinois residents and include their Illinois Drivers License or State ID card number on the application. Applicants under the age of 18 must have a parent's signature on the application. The parent must be eligible to have a FOID card.

For a person who supports an 'Armed Citizens Militia' like OTB, those Chicago laws would seem rather draconian.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 7:52:00 AM
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So when people are killed by guns, the cause is guns.

And when people are killed by knives, the cause is guns.

Meanwhile these people were really killed by the insane war on drugs. Tens of thousands world-wide die each year because things that were legal 150yrs ago are now illegal. Police forces are corrupted. Violent revolution is financed. Goals are filled.

All so that the wowser end of society can dictate to their moral 'inferiors' what they can and can't put in their bodies.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 8:16:52 AM
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Since I posted the statistics of 312 gun shooting victims in Chicago yesterday, I may as well post them again today.

Today's stats - 335 shooting victims.
That's 23 people who were shot in Chicago since yesterday.
Gun laws are working good aren't they?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 9:51:19 AM
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That should be a sassy back chatting checkout chick, don't want to shoot the wrong people.

In Arkansas to get a 5 year concealed gun carry self protection permit, all you basically have to do is declare allegiance to the United States and the Arkansas constitution, then the state coppers will give you your permit. Not sure if you have to hold your hand over you heart or not, like the Yanks do on TV, while you say it, and I don't know if there is a fee, maybe its free.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 9:59:23 AM
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Mhaze, who has said the knife murders were caused by guns?
You are getting a little silly now.

We all know that when Is Mise thought up this thread, he really wanted a discussion on guns.
He is fixated on guns....along with comrade Onthebeach....
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 10:06:46 AM
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Ah Chicago, I remember it fondly.

When my wife and I were staying there with a friend once, we went to a liquor store and as we were walking to the counter to pay, we caught the tail end of a conversation between the shop assistant and a young man of African American appearance. It seems the young man was under age (21) and didn't have ID so the shop assistant refused to serve him alcohol. The young man shouted as he was leaving, "You punk ass b**ch ass b**ch, I'm comin' back, I'm comin' back with a gun!"

The blood drained from the shop assistant's face. We decided to pay quickly and go. A short time later we had to pass the liquor store again, this time there were several police cars parked outside. They take it very seriously when you threaten someone with a gun, even if you don't actually have one on your person at the time.

Ah, what a wonderful time it was to feel so safe in a country that has so many guns in it. I'm sure I would felt even safer if I knew that it would become easier for even more people to carry firearms so that they could protect me.
Posted by Bugsy, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 10:41:31 AM
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The elephant in the room is that it is 'Afro-American' Culture, Black Culture that sees offence taken quickly, as a routine and even minor disagreements resolved with violence.

Acting out as a Negro American who has the right to do so because of discrimination against long dead relatives he likely didn't know or care about. -Otherwise than as a present-day excuse for self entitlement, sloth and crime.

The awful, inconvenient truth for that self-promoting, cultural BS artist Obama, is that Afro-American culture, easily recognisable (and deliberately so) by their separatism encouraged by meddling leftists and their social experimentation, IS trivial, slack, blaming (blaming others!) and always violent and self-defeating.

Obama is as separate and fearful of that Black Culture as working and usually well-educated Aborigines are of their 'long-grassing' extended relatives in Australia. In the US there has always been a bifurcation between the person with Black (or whatever) heritage who has pride in himself and is responsible for his own choices and the self-indulgent, excuse-making, lazy, dependent and violent mob.

Of course it is much easier for the slick, fast-talking Barack Obama to now launch upon 'gun culture' as his excuse for achieving SFA for Afro-American ferals who have a tradition of wreaking mayhem, especially against the claimed 'Bros'.

Frankly, what can be done from the outside to change a culture within a culture, particularly where so many who are part of it o are earning their daily bread as social change 'consultants' have a vested in it remaining as it is and worsening.

Otherwise, there is nothing that prevents Afro-Americans from taking responsibility and choosing a different path in life. That would require shedding those excuses, victimhood (their choice, again) and self-entitlement though.

Just as in Australia many thousands of indigenous are making the right choices for themselves and their families, and locking out those 'long-grassing' distant relatives who would molest their women and children is part of that.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 11:02:49 AM
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Paul,

You are confusing Illinois law with Chicago law, Chicago is in Illinois but Chicago City law takes precedence over the State law.

Criminals in Chicago, just like criminals in Sydney, take no notice of the gun laws.

Suse,

I'm not fixated on guns but rather on the right of citizens to self defence.
I started this thread to illustrate the fact that the media in this country are biased, had the victims been shot there would have been immediate coverage and the Greens would have been on the bandwagon screaming for more gun control but as it was the knife it was ignored.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 11:09:28 AM
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All guns and rifles are very bad and must be stopped in all our citys or really bad things will happen to people who should not have them otherwise bad things happen to them. Noone in a town or city need a gun or a rifle ever. Noone at all. In my old country people with guns or rifles are shot with no body warning them, because you get shot if even seen with a gun or rifle, with no questions asked by them either. Guns and rifles are very bad and no reason why anybody need one in the citys or towns at all. Big sign with pictures at railway stations and bus stations and airports of guns and rifles, showing you will get shot if you carry gun or rifle for any reason. Noone asking you why even, you just get shot without any talking or asking why?
Posted by misanthrope, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 1:09:12 PM
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"You are getting a little silly now."

Well Suse I was just using a little poetic licence to summarise the thread. A story about drugs and knives gets hijacked, at your instigation, into another (yet another) excuse to lambast the USA for believing things you don't understand.

The homicide rate in the various US towns is less dependent upon the number of guns and/or the level of stringency in that town's or state's gun laws, than upon the relative poverty of that town's inhabitants and the consequent level of drug violence.

Chicago is among the worst cities in the USA in terms of extreme poverty rates. Why? Well its been run by the Democrats for the better part of the last century. Nothing more need be said.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 2:15:14 PM
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Mhaze, no one hijacked this thread. Didn't Is Mise himself illustrate his intentions above re gun deaths versus knife deaths in the media?

Is Mise, I doubt our media report on every gun or knife related death in the USA, or we would be hearing only those reports 24 hours a day!
The fact remains that there isn't much a Government can do to regulate knife use in homes, obviously.
But they sure should do more on gun control...
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 2:44:20 PM
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Suse,

"But they sure should do more on gun control.."

What should they do, in your opinion?

Don't you think it a little unreasonable that a farmer can take his rifle and go hunting for a dangerous scrub bull and fix a fence or two whilst hunting but if he takes the rifle with him, with the intention of defending himself if the scrub bull should attack him whilst he is fixing a fence, then he is guilty of an offence because no one is allowed to have a firearm for the purpose of self defence?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 3:10:16 PM
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Oh don't be silly Is Mise.
Who on earth would say anything against a farmer shooting a 'dangerous scrub bull' that was charging him? I know of no such law, and how could that be proved anyway?

You know very well that this law is in place to stop people easily carrying guns and casually shooting anyone who upsets or frightens them, no questions asked first. As I said before, there seems to be an awful lot of shooting deaths in America, but not many seem to be in self defence?

A handy gun left in several places in the house, or on the person, doesn't seem to be 'protecting' many people in the US, so why should we slack off our gun laws so we can be more like the good old shoot-em-up Cowboys in that trigger happy country then?
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 8:45:23 PM
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Suse,

"Oh don't be silly Is Mise.
Who on earth would say anything against a farmer shooting a 'dangerous scrub bull' that was charging him? I know of no such law, and how could that be proved anyway?"

That is the law, are you now saying that some of our firearms laws are silly?
Is it not silly to have a law that cannot be proven?

It's like the offence of taking a brolly out with the intention of defending oneself against nesting magpies or, furled, for protection against dogs etc.

In Australia one is not allowed to possess ANYTHING for the purpose of self defence and that includes a knowledge of Martial Arts if such knowledge was acquired/is possessed for the purpose of self defence.
Knowledge can come under the umbrella of 'thing'.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 9:28:23 PM
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Oh my God is Mise you have got to be kidding! I really struggling believe you have just used the deaths of these people to invent some fallacious defense of guns?

How do you do it? What warped set of values allows you to disregard the bleeding obvious and take one tragic incident involving knives in one of the most gun infected parts of the US to try and put stabbings on a par with shootings?

Shameful.

Let's get a little perspective shall we. Gage Park is middle tier of the 77 Chicago community areas for crime.

Here are its statistics for homicide for the last 10 years.
http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/neighborhood/gage-park/#homicide_link_4456105

Please note of the 65 reported homicides in Gage Park over the described 10 year period, 54 or 80% of them were from gunshots. All this in a community of around 40,000 people or the equivalent of Manly NSW.

And what were the number of shooting deaths in Manly for the same period? Looks like zero mate. None, zilch, zip.

You want to march us on the path to Gage Park. I want us to stay where we are. That is fair enough but please use such a damning example as you have done to support your case. It is just plain idiotic.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 10 February 2016 11:10:15 PM
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//Is it not silly to have a law that cannot be proven?//

Isn't it not silly to not use sentences which don't employ so many double negatives?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 11 February 2016 12:13:28 AM
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Is Mise we have clashed many times over the years on the question of gun control and I'm sure we'll never see eye to eye, but to use the deaths of 6 innocent family members including a child by stabbing as justification for the relaxation of gun laws, I assume that's what you want for Australia, is as SteeleRedux rightly points out a new low even for you.

Here in NSW we have the Bobbsey Twins, the Two Bobs, from The Shooters and Hooters Party with their child like thinking when it comes to gun laws and gun control. This pair of bozo's are forever prattling on about the rights of gun owners in the NSW Legislative Council. Never once have they showed the slightest concern for the victims of gun violence. At one time I thought that these gun happy politicians, and their supporters, were simply misguided, and one day would see the error of their ways, eventually coming to a position of reasoned sensibility, alas, such a position for these selfish, self centered, gun happy bogans is not possible, while ever their only concern is ones own perverse pleasure to be had with firearms. Their motto should be "Stuff the innocent dead, I'm having fun!"

Fortunately the people of New South Wales have strong voices in the five Greens council members led by David Shoebridge to counter the excessive demands on gun laws, by the minuscule minority of society led by the Two Bobs from The Shooters and Hooters Party.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 11 February 2016 4:42:52 AM
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SteeleRedux,

You declare that you don't want Manly, NSW to go the way of Gage Park, a suburb of Chicago considering the latter's record of violent crime.

Too easy! Just don't slavishly repeat the social policy mistakes, examples being in immigration and multicultural policy, that led to those high crime numbers in Gage Park.

Gage Park Demographics 2010
• White 4.74%
• Black 5.42%
• Hispanic 89.21%
• Asian 0.3%
• Other 0.33%

OVERVIEW OF GAGE PARK
DEMOGRAPHICS [US Census and City of Chicago sources]

Population (2010) 39,894
Chicago 2,695,598
Area 2.20 sq. mi
Chicago 227.6 sq. mi
Population density 18,147 /sq. mi
Chicago 11,844 /sq. mi
Per-capita income $12,014
Chicago $27,148
Households below poverty level 20.8%
Chicago 18.7%
Unemployed 14.0%
Chicago 11.1%
Living in crowded housing 17.4%
Chicago 4.7%
No high school diploma 54.1%
Chicago 20.6%
Age: under 18 or over 64 40.4%
Chicago 34%
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 11 February 2016 5:39:15 AM
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Steele,

"Oh my God is Mise you have got to be kidding! I really struggling believe you have just used the deaths of these people to invent some fallacious defense of guns?"

I merely set out to illustrate the selectivity of reporting in the media. I did not mention guns.

Toni,

The sentence is grammarly correct, if not analyze it.

Paul,

That's the funniest post from you yet.

Australia now has just as many guns [and better and far more accurate] than pre-1996 yet the crime rate with firearms is falling, seems that more guns mean less crime.

"A study has found Australians now own as many guns as they did at the time of the Port Arthur shootings in 1996.

More than 1 million guns were destroyed in the aftermath of the massacre, but research shows Australians have restocked over the past 10 years, importing more than 1 million firearms.

Despite that, the number of gun-related deaths has halved since the gun buyback"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/4463150
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 11 February 2016 6:38:03 AM
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So are these all registered and legally owned firearms Is Mise?

What's the breakdown on weapon type? Are there as many semi-automatics or automatic weapons as previously? These are the ones that were specially targeted as being used in massacres.

I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of these weapons were purchased legally, by people who are members of gun clubs and have had the requisite background checks.

I am also guessing that they weren't semi-automatic weapons, but you may tell me differently.

The fact that 'gun' (generalised) ownership has increased under our laws and yet crime hasn't risen, indicates to me that our guns laws are working and shouldn't be changed or relaxed. Thanks for this information Is Mise.
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:46:36 AM
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There are more than three hundred million guns in people's hands in the US. With every massacre, more people rush out and buy more guns, right or wrong.

What government authority could even begin to confiscate so many weapons ?

The horse has bolted.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:55:32 AM
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Bugsy

"So are these all registered and legally owned firearms Is Mise?"

Yes, the thousands of illegal ones are another issue.

"Are there as many semi-automatics or automatic weapons as previously?"
There are no legally owned automatics, except for minuscule special exemptions; there are less semi-autos but many thousands of repeating rifles that are faster than many semi-automatic ones.
There are now more semi-auto pistols, at a guess.

"I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of these weapons were purchased legally, by people who are members of gun clubs and have had the requisite background checks."

100% legal purchases and ditto on background checks, only the better class of citizen can have a firearms licence.

"The fact that 'gun' (generalised) ownership has increased under our laws and yet crime hasn't risen, indicates to me that our guns laws are working and shouldn't be changed or relaxed."

Port Arthur was but a blip on the continuing downward trend in gun and other crime.
It is worth noting that Australia's second worst massacre, or mass killing, was done with a .22rf single shot rifle and a rubber mallet
(Clifford Bartholomeu, 10 murdered, 1971 in South Aust.).

Port Arthur is also notable for the left-handed Bryant pulling off feats of marksmanship firing right handed, or so some reports by witnesses say.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 11 February 2016 1:25:26 PM
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So, Is Mise, you would certainly disagree with American organisations like the NRA and some Republicans that believe that crime rates increased after the introduction of our current gun laws?

It appears that some people in the pro-gun group are under the apprehension that people who support the current firearms laws think that they are just all gun nuts and the laws should be tightened. Not at all. I think that for the most part legal gun ownership is being kept well regulated and in the hands of responsible people. That is, they are working.

I just don't think that they need to be loosened for your convenience.
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 11 February 2016 2:20:36 PM
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The second worst massacre in Oz was by diesel fire bomb and killed 15 patrons and staff of the Whiskey Au Go Go nightclub in Brisbane, 1973. One could also list the loss of lives and assets from deliberately lit bushfires.

It only took 2X23 litre cans containing diesel and it could have been less. Had petrol been used, the explosion and enormous heat would have resulted in no survivors from the 100 present.

An offender has many options apart from the noisy firearm that betrays their crime, usually results in witnesses to their escape, retains fingerprints and DNA and is difficult to dispose of.

As long as the callous, irresponsible, audience-hunting media sensationalise the crime and give the offender enormous publicity then and forever later (as the do with Bryant), would-be offenders will use the firearm, or bomb, whatever they see as the gold standard for media attention and worldwide notoriety.

However the likelihood of becoming a victim of a mass homicide by firearm in the US is probably far less than that of being hit by lightning.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 11 February 2016 3:21:13 PM
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//However the likelihood of becoming a victim of a mass homicide by firearm in the US is probably far less than that of being hit by lightning.//

It isn't. The National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration give an average figure of approx. 500 lightning strikes per year, with 9-10% of those resulting in fatalities. There were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870, according to the Mass Shooting Tracker, which catalogues such incidents. In other words, you're almost ten times more likely to be killed in a mass shooting than you are to be killed lightning if you have the misfortune to live in the States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike
http://www.shootingtracker.com/Main_Page

When you stop to think about it, it's quite weird that mass shooting kill more people than lightning. We don't know how to prevent lightning strikes, whereas we have a much better idea of how to prevent mass shootings: limit access to firearms. It's difficult to carry out a mass shooting with a slingshot. The fact that the mortality rate for mass shootings is nearly ten times that of lightning strikes, when it should be much lower, is testament to how ridiculous America's gun laws are.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 11 February 2016 4:10:44 PM
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When you want to make stupid comparisons with numbers that are easily available onthebeach, FFS at least make a 5 minute effort to look them up.

US deaths at mass shootings in 2015: 475

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604

US lightning deaths in 2015: 26

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/fatalities.shtml

The number of school shooting incidents alone (not deaths), was 64!

Now if you want to say a 'victim' of either homicide was either shot but not necessarily dead, then we can look at the stats again:

Number of wounded in mass shootings in the US 2015: 1870 (reference given above)

Number of people struck by lightning in the USA each year: an estimated 330/year on average (2004-2013 period)
http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml

If you broaden the definition of 'victim' to include those families and friends psychologically traumatised by mass shootings, then that number will again be far higher.

At least try and pretend that you have some empathy.
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 11 February 2016 4:15:11 PM
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Toni Lavis,

That site you linked to has been criticised before. Just taking the first report of the newly 'improved' reporting as an example, there were three shooters and two deaths. Sure presents as one of the usual gang on gang fights over drug territory.

Doesn't seen to fit the image of mass homicides that is spruiked as something that 'gun control' would prevent. More illegal guns being used illegally (of course) by offenders who have no regard for laws and in fact breaking laws figures as part of their usual modus operandi.

Having dismissed the very first case off the list, why bother going further.

Bugsy uses the same source.

It is back to the same ground treaded so often before, where politicians like Obama are using 'gun culture' to excuse and shirk their responsibilities for social problems that they cynically contributed to through ill-advised populist policies.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 11 February 2016 4:32:30 PM
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Hi Toni,

Limit the number of arms ? Certainly, make sure that any new applicants have psych and police tests, and impose awaiting period.

But with three hundred million weapons already out there in the US, other options would have to be developed. I was going to suggest better safety education in schools, but since shooting things is so exciting, that may only encourage students to get a weapon as soon as they are old enough.

Hanging murderers from gibbets ? Drawing and quartering ? I don't know what might work - maybe far more educational opportunities so that people can avoid going down those paths, but that's far more difficult in current economic conditions (and it didn't seem to work in the good times).

Any ideas ?

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 11 February 2016 4:38:49 PM
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OK, so I had a quick look at the video report for the second 'mass murder' on the new revised Tracker linked to by Toni and Bugsy.

Mexican Village Nightclub/bar environs and police say it evolved from a dispute between a number of parties.
One dead and three different bullet cases. Points to more than one assailant.

In the video interview a city leaders said outright that "This is not a police problem, this is a problem with some folks in our community..". He'd know, why not believe him?

So again to apply Occam's Razor it is social problems, most likely gangs, drugs and drug territory disputes, or simply imported Hispanic ways of resolving their disagreements that is the problem.

Much easier for Obama and Democrats to dismiss it all as a 'gun control' problem instead.

The feckless media are happy to run with simple stereotyping. That makes for easy sensationalism and investigative journalists are shouldered aside by the cheap young tabloid hacks that are so abundant in the US and in Australia.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 11 February 2016 5:05:07 PM
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Bugsy,

"I just don't think that they need to be loosened for your convenience."

I'd just like to see the stupid anomalies removed, that's all.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 11 February 2016 5:15:06 PM
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SO, the number of gun deaths by your methodology onthebeach would be..?

Effectively zero?

Less than 26? Which is the number that die by lightning?

Give me a break. You pull statements about calculable probability out of your wazoo, and then have the temerity of dismissing all the numbers to you because you think the first couple of recorded incidences sound like 'gang fights' and don't fit your idea of a 'mass shooting'?

Yeah whatever dude.

One thing I certainly agree on is that the US is not going to get this under control any time soon. It just can't, and that's so sad.
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 11 February 2016 10:45:45 PM
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From the homepage of mass shooting tracker:

"Gun Violence Archive has always used the FBI derived definition:

FOUR or more shot and/or killed in a single event [incident], at the same general time and location, not including the shooter."

Why don't you write a nice letter to the FBI telling them that their definition of mass shooting is wrong? I'm sure they'll pay lots of attentions to your concerns and not just dismiss them as the rantings of some antipodean nutjob who thinks he knows the FBI's job better than the FBI.

//But with three hundred million weapons already out there in the US, other options would have to be developed.//

Ban the sale of ammunition outright. A gun without bullets is an unwieldy club. People will have ammunition stockpiled - hardcore gun-nuts probably tons of the stuff - but once it's all been used up, that's it, no more. The threat of scarcity might encourage them to conserve their ammo by not shooting people unless it's absolutely necessary. This solution protects people's 2nd amendment rights - they can still have as many guns as they want - but it effectively renders their guns harmless. A win-win.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 12 February 2016 12:35:06 AM
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Lol Toni Lavis...I think you just might be onto something there.
A good idea, but the bang-bang boys on this forum will not like it!
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 12 February 2016 1:30:56 AM
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Comparing apples with apples.

The common, historical understanding of mass homicide is the Columbine tragedy in the US and Port Arthur in Australia. What I said is perfectly right, such mass homicides are relatively rare.

What the Obama administration and its FBI has done is grossly exaggerate the figures by vastly broadening the definition, by including all other criminal offenders for example gang crimes and for instance by stretching the term homicide to include any injury, including injuries not directly attributable to a bullet, such as broken glass.

That is self-serving for the Obama administration, for the Democrats and for the FBI, which would like more funding taken from other services and delivered to it.

Reminiscent of the feminists isn't it, where the definition of 'domestic violence' has been broadened to include a withering look or allegedly not giving enough money. It is a con trick there too, because when DV is mentioned one imagines actual and likely serious injury (and of course always caused by men). It is all black and white with no other nuances nor contributors. Masterful propaganda and achieved very largely through the powerful Hegelian Paradigm.

Shamefully misleading and gets the leftists like Obama off the hook by stonewalling any critical thought and examination of the real contributing factors, which can be unforeseen negative consequences of the social reengineering of the leftists. Problems like the links between fatherless homes and youth gang membership, drug taking and self-harm.

Even gun control activists are criticising the cynical, politically-driven gross enlargement of the definition of mass homicide, agreeing with other commentators that it is alarmism and is fomenting public fear (for the political purposes of Obama and the Democrats).

Typical of leftists to play fast and loose with the facts and they need to, to cover up the accumulating negative consequences of their social experimentation gone bad.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 12 February 2016 5:23:14 AM
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"That site you linked to has been criticised before" who by, Charlton Heston.
Thanks Toni for that link, it blows holes in OTB's argument that more Americans are killed by lighting than mass shootings. Beach might have one of his virus infected pro gun sites that will refute your stats. I can hardly wait. This is the same OTB who previously posted his support for a 'Citizens Militia' in Australia. I assume the purpose of the CM would be to put down riots by feminists, communists, Stalinist's, Fabian's, Greens, pinko's, you get the picture.
Although Is Mise would have us believe the claims of mass shootings in the United States are simply fabrications by radical left wing publication such as 'The New York Times', who on a lazy news day, invent these falsehoods!
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 12 February 2016 6:06:54 AM
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Toni,

Except for flintlock/percussion muzzle loaders and breach loaders that use external ignition.
Then there would be the people who saw a quick buck in smuggling ammunition....hang on that wouldn't work, prohibition of grog was such a success, damn!
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 February 2016 7:25:22 AM
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Suse,

When are we going to hear your ideas on stricter gun laws; accompanied, of course, by reasoned explanations based on evidence and with references?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 February 2016 7:53:16 AM
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Well, if you want to compare apples with apples onthebeach, why don't you provide your own stats and numbers of mass shootings that fit your particular definition. Then we can compare those numbers to your little offhand comment about lightning strikes and still find out you're full of it.

Until you can provide numbers (which we have done and you didn't like) and not just hand waving, it's only so much lefty bashing wind coming out your rear end.
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 12 February 2016 8:11:19 AM
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//Then there would be the people who saw a quick buck in smuggling ammunition....hang on that wouldn't work, prohibition of grog was such a success, damn!//

No, prohibition isn't perfect and people do find black market solutions to get around it. But we still prohibit stuff, like smack, because policy makers seem to take the view that if we legalised it we'd wind up with more smackheads than we have under prohibition. They may well be right.

Banning the legal sale of ammunition won't stop it being sold on the black market. But it will reduce it's availability and increase it's price - if people have to pay through the nose for a single bullet it might encourage them to conserve their ammo by not shooting people unless it's absolutely necessary. Also, those that are caught buying and selling black-market ammo can be punished and have their ammo confiscated, which will hopefully deter others from doing likewise and stops at least one ammo-pusher from hawking his filthy wares.

There will still be ammo available, just as there is still smack available, but there won't be as much of it. An imperfect solution is better than throwing your hands in the air, declaring the problem intractable and not doing anything about it.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 12 February 2016 9:00:33 AM
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Hi Toni,

Yes, prohibition may work with many people, but perhaps precisely the 'wrong' ones: those who really want tovstock-pile ammunition might form yetanother readymarket for Mexican smugglers.

I'm intrigued by your suggestion that " .... the threat of scarcity might encourage them to conserve their ammo by not shooting people unless it's absolutely necessary." My heart goes out to all those people who don't shoot other people unless it's absolutely necessary, it must create many moral dilemmas for them.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 12 February 2016 9:21:20 AM
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Toni Lavis,

How many bullets do you figure a criminal needs and uses? Not many most would say. Think about it.

Next, criminals have little regard for laws and they do break laws. It is part of their modus operandi. For the drug-dealing gang member a weapon is one of the tools of trade.

They illegally procure and hold their guns with no difficulty at all. THe price of a box of ammunition is going to be a problem? How?
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 12 February 2016 9:32:13 AM
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A car is more useful to an offender than a firearm and is usually a necessity.

Here is an idea, why not make fuel prohibitively expensive to stop those crims in their tracks? [sarcasm alert]
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 12 February 2016 9:35:19 AM
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It is great to talk about gun control and avoid those thorny social problems, drug trafficking, gangs and so on.

Yay for that Obama, he did learn a lot from the master, Oz PM John Howard's advice, "It's the gun culture and do I have a deal for you. It's a hare called gun control, you just set it to run and they chase after it. Meanwhile you're home free, no problems. Well, no problems you'd care to discuss that is".
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 12 February 2016 9:47:19 AM
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Nobody is ignoring our social problems OTB, but you (and others) do seem to be using them as a smokescreen for inaction on regulating inherently dangerous goods. This turn of argument doesn't quite make sense to me, you seem to be removing the gun problem from other problems and blaming it on those other social issues. I take the view that they are all parts of a wider more complex problem, and we can take action on all of them at once, not piecemeal. Guns, drugs and other issues can all have coordinated efforts at managing them. One problem is NOT an excuse to avoid tackling another.

In fact, many seem to be using our social problems as excuses for making it easier to obtain said weapons for the purposes of self-defence and not acknowledging that this is contributing to the loss of safety. Not so much in Australia, as Is Mise has shown, but certainly in the USA.

I know prohibition (at least in the long term) doesn't work, but we have done reasonably well at managing social problems before. Not ridding ourselves of them, but at least reducing their impacts.

Gun regulation is one of those methods. If there are serious anomalies in the legislation, then by all means, we should be able to streamline that. Those I am up for discussion about. But they have to be serious and real, perceived slights or insults on character don't count.

As an aside, still no numbers from you yet OTB?
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 12 February 2016 10:30:31 AM
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Bugsy,

Here's one for starters, after the first 6 months on a 12 month Probationary Licence one may purchase (if permission is given) two pistols.
Either a centre fire (powerful) and/or an air pistol (not powerful) or a black powder pistol (powerful) but not a .22rf pistol (not powerful).

Or one can buy a .22rf pistol and/or any of the others above except a centre fire pistol.

So one can buy a .357 Magnum and a .44 Colt Dragoon, both very powerful pistols but not a .357 Magnum and the very weak, by comparison, .22rf.

No one in Government has yet been able to give a sensible reason.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 February 2016 10:54:07 AM
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"One person in Chicago is shot every 2.8hrs"

Poor bastard.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 12 February 2016 1:33:35 PM
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Is Mise, I am fairly happy with Australia's gun laws, but would prefer we have guns only available for military, farming and law enforcement purposes.
There is no need for gun clubs or shooting 'for pleasure' in our society.

I don't need to provide any references or stats for my opinions....unless I give wild stories about lightning strikes....
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 12 February 2016 6:36:55 PM
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Suseonline, "There is no need for gun clubs or shooting 'for pleasure' in our society"

There is no need for anything in 'our' society. That is the extension of your authoritarianism, that everything relies on the State for approval. Big State idealism. Citizens should be thankful for what they are allowed to do, eh? Or more likely, what Suseonline says they should be permitted to do.

It is the stance of the totalitarian left.

How come Howard's gun control didn't stop Sydney's Martin Place gunman, Man Haron Monis from unlawfully obtaining and criminally using an illegal firearm?

What about Curtis Cheng, who was shot in cold blood with an illegal weapon, how do you explain that 'gun control' was ineffectual there too?

As for the outrageous claims here that mass homicides in the US are daily events, I am damned sure that is just Obama and others whipping up fear for political purposes.

It does not require any figuring to arrive at the conclusion that mass homicides are they are traditionally and commonly understood, the San Bernardino and Sandy Hook tragedies as examples, are rare and unusual events in the US. Although I imagine they are on the rise. Perhaps that says something about the social experimentation that the leftists like Obama have been dabbling in.

What conflating those very particular events with other general crime does is deny funds for the independent rigorous research that such murders require.

Cynical, manipulative Obama and the Democrats are doing exactly what John Howard did at the time of Port Arthur, distract attention away from the unique crime and in Howard's case, deny the victims, their loved ones and the Australian public the opportunity for a Royal Commission into the tragedy. That doesn't benefit the public at all.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 12 February 2016 8:38:28 PM
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Onthebeach, I am just happy we don't have the same gun laws as the US, who are now beyond saving.
Nothing you raving 'righties' can say will change my opinion, and that is all it is, my opinion, not anyone else's.

You stick with your opinion...all the while with your head in the sand as far as gun laws go. The gun murder statistics in both the US and Australia are quite easy to read and understand for most bright people....left or right.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 12 February 2016 10:08:24 PM
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Suseonline,

You should be thankful that Australia doesn't have the social and cultural problems that contribute to those extraordinary high levels of violence apparent in 'Afro-American' and Hispanic areas of the US.

Not something that Obama wants to talk about.

You need to admit the obvious fact that 'gun control' is directed exclusively at confiscating legal firearms from lawful, licensed owners and is not concerned at all and nor is it effective against anyone who doesn't comply with laws, that is, offenders.

That was the surprise(?!) for John Howard's 'gun control': that offenders don't apply for licenses (wouldn't get them anyhow); they import their own illegal guns; they don't register guns (the firearms registry is a white elephant as other countries found before Howard); and of course they use them to break more laws.

BTW, how do you figure that Bryant (Port Arthur) was able to obtain and use a firearm that had been previously been surrendered to police in an amnesty? So much for 'gun control', bans and gun confiscations preventing criminals. Any wonder then PM John Howard was determined to block any independent inquiry into the Port Arthur murders. It is awful to even contemplate, but there is nothing, nil, nada, in Howard's 'gun control' that would stop or even deter another Bryant and he has minimal IQ (also relevant to the commission of the offences).
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 13 February 2016 5:19:35 AM
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I actually don't care about who does or doesn't perpetrate the gun violence in America Onthebeach, I am just glad we aren't suffering the same fate here.

With the school gun massacres at least, I can't recall seeing your dreaded African Americans as the perpetrators, at least for the major ones shown by the media?
Maybe there is a conspiracy to keep those other massacres from being shown?

In any case, you are now just trying to flog a dead horse on this issue.
See you all on another thread.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 13 February 2016 10:12:25 AM
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Suseonline, "I actually don't care about who does or doesn't perpetrate the gun violence in America.."

You are in denial of the abundant evidence that the so-called 'gun culture' problem is actually a well-identified 'social culture' problem.

Obama and ors are trying to shift the blame for the negative outcomes of multiculturalism and their own failed leftist social policies and experimentation.

So much for 'diversity' always being a social or economic good. The idealistic, now excuse-making Angela Merkel has inflicted a similar problem and future on Germany.

Regarding the separate problem of the infrequent and unique "mass shooting" where Virginia Tech., Colombine and recent schoolshootings are concerned it is correct that the offenders are also very different indeed. Such dreadful murders have been responsible for only a small fraction of the people murdered annually and stand out and already stated as unique, requiring separate research and remedies.

Suicide too involves different subsets of the population and successful versus threatened and attempted different again.

Wouldn't it be much easier if it could all be blamed on a 'gun culture' so politicians and others with their secondary agendas can come up with pat 'solutions'?

Nothing like a self-promoting, side-stepping, moral BS artist like Obama for denying the obvious though and ducking any accountability. In Australia, the then PM John Howard did a lasting disservice to the victims, their relatives and the public by ruthlessly blocking the Royal Commission that should have been held into the Port Arthur massacre.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 13 February 2016 12:32:22 PM
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In these times of probable terrorist attacks anywhere in the world at any time, including the US, a gun buy-back scheme is likely to be the last thing that any politician would be stupid enough to recommend.

Who would give their guns back ? Perhaps only the most law-abiding. Who would keep theirs ? The rest.

With three hundred million weapons in circulation, it would simply not be on anybody's agenda.

.... Just in case anybody was going to recommend it .....

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 13 February 2016 12:43:55 PM
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I would not have any problems at all if all if my neighbours like many thousands of other Aussies had current firearms licences. I would prefer it.

That way I am sure they have all passed character and background checks with flying colours and are good citizens. Just pleased to have a buffer of good, solid, law-abiding citizens of many years standing surrounding my home and family.

I have no such assurances where 'that' highly secretive 'gun control' outfit is concerned and the alleged two or three secret squirrel activists behind it. They run a site where the begging bowl is always out for public donations, but refuse to volunteer even the basic details that any reputable group, organisation or business would provide without question. Examples being, owners, directors, current membership, sources of funds and other support, overseas sponsorship if any, how the money is expended, independent auditing, links and so on.

It is simply amazing, unreal, how the 'fact checking' (that is a laugh) ABC continually provides a free podium for gun control 'spokespersons', ranting activists who appear out of the blue with with talking sheets(provided by whom?) and impressive-sounding, self-awarded titles. Always only leading questions from the ABC, strange that is.

The ABC doesn't make it a rule to provide balance by inviting representatives of the many thousands of ordinary licensed citizens, such as the SSAA and others, despite the fact that their members are being attacked and maligned.

What is even more amazing is that in all of the time the ABC has been giving a free podium and free runs to those secretive 'gun control' advocates, the ABC has never found it necessary to ask any of the obvious due diligence questions.

Not information that the public should be expecting to inform themselves, obviously. Just trust the ABC and never you mind.

Gun control is NOT cost efficient and effective firearms regulation based on risk analysis and evidence. It is nothing like that.

Gun control is about disarming the ordinary law-abiding citizens of western democracies: confiscations and bans and stripping rights from ordinary law-abiding citizens.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 13 February 2016 3:17:38 PM
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Look... we have the makings of our first regiment of 'Citizens Militia' under the command of Colonel Wilhelm Beach. Marching down Main Street, with the Colonel at the head, followed by Bob and Betty Burtstill from number 12, with their AK47's slung nicely over their shoulders, and look, there's the little Burtstill's carrying AK23 1/2 (the junior model). Old Fred from number 17 is bring up the rear in his slinky new Abrams Tank, got a good trade on the Kingswood. Freds a veteran of WWI you know.
An ideal Sunday morning in suburbia. The world is at peace and safe from you know who....feminists, commo's pinko's you get the drift.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 13 February 2016 5:49:05 PM
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Carrying on Paul's fine homey story.....Suddenly, Beach's street is disturbed by screams and gunshots, as Bob chases Betty out onto the street and shoots her dead in front of the neighbours.

Apparently she told Bob she was leaving him, and this fine upstanding citizen who previously passed all the 'tests' needed to purchase a gun in the suburbs went crazy and picked up his handy nearby shotty and showed Betty just what happens to any of his ' possessions' who pi##ed him off! Little Billy-Bob and Betty-Sue are now left without their mum, and daddy is off to jail.

Beach "That way I am sure they have all passed character and background checks with flying colours and are good citizens. Just pleased to have a buffer of good, solid, law-abiding citizens of many years standing surrounding my home and family."

Lol......yeah right, coz no one who legally owns a gun ever killed anyone or committed any gun-related crimes.....
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 13 February 2016 7:58:41 PM
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Hi Suse and Paul,

Yes, it's not nice that so many people have guns. Terrible. So dangerous. Awful.

So what do we do about it ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 14 February 2016 8:34:51 AM
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//So what do we do about it ?//

* Don't emigrate to America.
* Don't let Australia become America: we've already got good control laws. All we have to do is ignore people like beach asking to us to loosen them, and I think we'll probably be all right.

In the case of America, I think the horse has already bolted.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 14 February 2016 10:18:45 AM
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Toni Lavis, "All we have to do is ignore people like beach asking to us to loosen them, and I think we'll probably be all right"

You might give an example where I have done that.

Like some other Jackasses you are clueless about the regulations and their operation and have nothing of value to contribute, hence the inane forum bait.

The firearms registry for instance is a repository of data gathered on the thousands of licensed people who obey the law and register their firearms. Howard must have been very surprised when offenders didn't volunteer to register their guns.

Police in weapons branches would far prefer to be collaring criminals which is why they became police, instead of wasting their scant resources gathering data on thousands of reputable citizens who comply with laws and have no reasonable likelihood of ever using their valuable assets to offend. Ex-PM Tony Abbott learned through sad experience that offenders do not register their guns and the data held is not reliable (the embarrassing debacle over the Martin Place terrorist).

However the registry is a one stop information bank for criminals wanting to identify members of the public who own firearms and where they are held. There are continual allegations that firearms registry data security has been compromised and supplied to outlaw motorcycle gangs.

My first interest as always and my posting record across the board bears witness to it, is value for getting the best money and accountability for the money government extracts compulsorily from taxpayers.

Howard's gun control did nothing whatsoever to control or even mildly deter the illegal ownership and of course illegal use firearms and the offenders were most happy with all of those police resources being (mis)directed to looking over the shoulders of already checked and certified reputable licensed citizens instead.

Here is a small challenge, give one example where Howard's hugely expensive 'gun control' firearms registry has ever solved a crime.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 14 February 2016 11:03:09 AM
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To correct the typo and worth repeating anyhow,

"My first interest as always and my posting record across the board bears witness to it, is getting the best value and accountability for the money government extracts compulsorily from taxpayers"
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 14 February 2016 11:13:02 AM
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That would be very interesting; a list of the crimes solved through the various Firearms Registries.

Remember that if your list is very long there is a word limit, but you can make a number of posts.

Looking forward to the Revelations.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 February 2016 12:57:18 PM
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<<I (Beach) would not have any problems at all if all if my neighbours like many thousands of other Aussies had current firearms licences. I would prefer it.>>

Beach, I don't know if you live in a rural or urban environment, but I do know you live in a fools paradise to make such a statement. Making gun licences as freely available as driving licences, that is what you are saying. Like the driving test, which proves you were a competent driver on the day of the test, a gun licence simply shows you were deemed to be of good character and background, when you applied for the licence, and that can be debated as to its value and accuracy.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 14 February 2016 6:23:02 PM
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Beach, you make these unsubstantiated statement, and present them as fact.
<< There are continual allegations that firearms registry data security has been compromised and supplied to outlaw motorcycle gangs.>>

Who exactly are making these allegations? If anyone is making such allegations, it would not be the gun lobby by any chance. would it!
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 14 February 2016 7:02:00 PM
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Paul1405,

You have followed on from your childish posts to sledge and derail the thread with more of the same.

How typical that is for the Stalinist NSW 'Watermelon' Greens who picketed an innocent ordinary small business owner whose only 'crime' where the serially protesting Greens were concerned was that he was of likely Jewish heritage and the lunatic Greens were going on about an international blockade.

There is no doubt at all that Greens leader Richard do Natale needs to do something about Lee Rhiannon and her NSW Watermelons, the limp, silly, serially protesting Sandalplank and all.

Now Paul, just talking about real crimes, what do the Greens intend to do about their cosy relationship with the CFMEU?

What about in Queensland too, where the Greens and Labor are deep sixing the highly successful anti-bikie (and anti criminal gang) VLAD law that was supported by the High Court of Australia? Businesses and residents of Brisbane, SE Qld and especially the Gold Coast have pleaded for the VLAD law to continue. But no, the anti-democratic, outlaw motorcycle club supporting Greens and Labor's Palaszczuk Government are not listening.

Meanwhile, local papers like the Queensland Times fill their columns with the regrowth of new and old bikie gangs and their drugs, crime, standover tactics, violence and guns.
http://www.qt.com.au/topic/bikie-gangs/

With a federal election on the way, the people of Queensland will be remembering the Greens and Labor for their utter hypocrisy that puts the lives of police and the public and especially youth tourists visiting the Gold Coast on the line.

What utter garbage that the Greens care at all about the victims of crime.

to be continued..
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 14 February 2016 8:36:00 PM
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Jeez the old fella gets a real froth up don't he?
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 14 February 2016 8:42:51 PM
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continued..

Where the Greens need to be very, very careful Paul 1405, is in the encouragement they give through their support and fomenting of protests, to already politically alienated youth to believe that there is no effective place or way for them to be heard in the existing political framework.

That is damned irresponsible of the Greens.

What the Greens should be doing instead is supporting the civics education of youth and already disaffected interests, introducing them to parliament and showing them how to approach politicians and other decision makers in a calm, reasoned, reasonable manner with facts and an understanding of the limitations of budget, practicality and so on.

Paul1405, you are continually saying you are a Green and were an unsuccessful Greens candidate in the NSW local government election. You say you are comrades with 'Aunty Lee' and best mates with lightweight Greens 'Sandalplank'. You should be having a good long look at your own posts on OLO and what your behaviour says to youth who might participate in the forum.

The very last thing youth should be doing is disempowering themselves and becoming the superficial, forever blaming, forever deliberately misinterpreting, serially protesting nuisances that the 'Watermelon' Greens faction has become in NSW.

Now, what about after all your years of uninformed comment YOU finally take some minutes to acquaint yourself with the firearms regulations so that you can finally participate in a higher level discussion and what can be done for the public good?
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 14 February 2016 8:49:21 PM
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//Jeez the old fella gets a real froth up don't he?//

Doesn't he just? I would recommend a nice long run and a cold shower - might calm him down a bit.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 14 February 2016 11:01:58 PM
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Beach, you are having a go at me the armadillo, water off a ducks back. About derailing the thread, Jews, Greens, CFMEU, how derailed can you get. I have a memory like an elephant when it comes your posts, and like it or not, I recall on another 'gun' thread with Is Mise you expressed support for a 'citizens militia' type org in Australia. Do you still support that concept?

I ask again: Beach, you make these unsubstantiated statements, and present them as fact.
<< There are continual allegations that firearms registry data security has been compromised and supplied to outlaw motorcycle gangs.>>
Who exactly are making these allegations? If anyone is making such allegations, it would not be the gun lobby by any chance. would it! Maybe it is those outlaw bikie gangs you go on about.

Possibly you are a closet supporter of outlaw bikie gangs, with your belief in an open slather policy when it comes to gun control. If you are not, your way would certainly play into the hands of the criminal class with no gun control laws.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 15 February 2016 6:31:35 AM
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Paul1405,

You are right there, you certainly do have a considerable hide. The Greens in Qld for instance, are on the public record for demanding withdrawal of the highly successful VLAD law. That is against substantial public, business and police support for the legislation which was supported by the High Court.

As usual I will leave your Straw Man distractions and forum baiting to one side.

As for the white elephant NSW firearms registry that costs millions a year to operate but has never solved a crime, it is public knowledge and mentioned in the NSW parliament that corrupt police were among 16,000 people who had free access to the names, addresses and firearm details of every licensed firearm owner in NSW.

It is a matter of fact that the entire database of the NSW Police Firearms Registry was 'available to any sworn officer or unsworn civilian employee for at least two and a half years (from 2008 to 2011), a period during which a number of police employees were exposed and charged with serious criminal offences'.

What better way of compromising the safety of every licensed person and his/her loved ones? Once compromised there is no way of recovering the situation. The personal information wasn't even classified. In fact it was unclassified! Imagine if it was one's Tax File Number, but giving far more information.

Of course had the lack of security of personal information affected criminals the Greens would be outraged and demanding that heads roll. As shown by Labor and the Greens in Queensland, bikies and organised crime figures have RIGHTS. It is just that Labor and the Greens are casual and frivolous where law-abiding citizens and victims of crime are concerned. Just as they are ignoring the Royal Commission findings on the CFMEU and others they happen to be in bed with.

Now, what about you give an example where the gun registry has solved a crime?
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 15 February 2016 7:23:20 AM
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Where are the posts on all the crimes solved?

I was so looking forward to some interesting reading.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 12:29:20 AM
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Beach, if as you claim <<It is a matter of fact that the entire database of the NSW Police Firearms Registry was 'available to any sworn officer or unsworn civilian employee for at least two and a half years (from 2008 to 2011), a period during which a number of police employees were exposed and charged with serious criminal offences'.>> Has that situation been rectified, in the ensuing 5 years, if so that should allay your fears, However that does not diminish the importance of a gun registers. Your extreme views of favoring no gun control laws what so ever is nothing short of a recipe for disaster. To add, how many people were charged with unlawfully accessing the gun register and using it to commit serious crime?

Is Mise, like driving licences do not directly prevent road carnage, and you can not quantify how many lives are saved each year because we have a driving licence system in place, but it is fair to say licences do save lives. A gun register is much the same, it is a way of tracking who has what, and that in itself is a deterrent for some. I and others rest a little easier at night knowing a gun register is there helping to protect the community from people with guns. A register is not the be all and end all, but a piece that forms that much needed umbrella of protection for the community from the gun happy brigade.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 6:01:43 AM
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Meanwhile, in Victoria and coming to a street near you and earlier for your children at entertainment venues where drugs are as available as bottled water,

"Secret informer links Victoria's most powerful bikie boss Amad 'Jay' Malkoun with suspected firearms traffickers

VICTORIA'S most powerful bikie boss has been linked to a group of suspected firearms traffickers by a secret police informer.

In a rare glimpse inside the secretive world of arms dealing, the Herald Sun has uncovered allegations that Comancheros boss Amad "Jay" Malkoun has links with individuals who police suspect may be illicit gun runners.

In allegations raised with police, a private jet pilot who is an associate of Malkoun is alleged to have used the plane to traffic weapons for the Comancheros.

It is alleged the pilot is also an associate of underworld figure Mick Gatto, who is himself a mate of Malkoun.

Another Malkoun associate who owns nightclubs around Melbourne is considered by police to have had potential involvement in arms smuggling.

Outlaw motorcycle gangs are considered by law enforcement to be key players in the illicit firearms trade. Gatto claims to have no involvement in gun running.

Police have been told that outlaw motorcycle gangs are dealing in Uzis, M16s and M25 sniper rifles.

Police around the country have warned outlaw bikie gangs are a threat, dealing in extortion, drug running and money laundering."
http://tinyurl.com/hhwkuu3

Howard's 'gun control' is a morass of non-productive bureaucratic procedures, paperwork and fees directed at the respectable, law-abiding, licensed citizens who are already known not to offend.

It has had no effect whatsoever on criminals, obviously.

tbc
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 6:17:27 AM
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continued..

It is ludicrous that police in weapons branches and in short-staffed local stations are wasting their time and everyone else's, recording and red-flagging ordinary citizens on police computers as 'persons of interest', printing reams of forms to complete, continually looking over their shoulders and conducting random, fully uniformed raids on their homes to inspect and interrogate.

It is regulations based on evidence that is required. The resource-intensive, time-wasting, non-productive bureaucratic busywork of Howard's 'gun control' was always a political sham: bunting to cover-up for the lack of a Royal Commission into Port Arthur; and, to distract from poor political decisions, examples being the closure and sale of C'wealth mental health facilities and inadequacies policy and planning.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 6:18:31 AM
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Aw gee, Paul, and here was I and lots of others believing that Firearm Registries helped to solve crime.
Does that mean that the claims, when they were set up, about how they would help solve crime, were nothing more than political hot air?

Maybe that's why the Canadians (whose model we adopted) abolished their Firearms Registery as a money wasting failure.

If it didn't work in Canada why would it work here?

The various motor registries have helped solve crimes.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 3:35:22 PM
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Toni,

Do away with all ammunition and you have a solution that exists only in your own mind.
Out in the real world of the well informed there are air guns, linear accelerators (Gauss rifles) and electronic ignition firearms using propellants easily obtained from the supermarket.

Just Google Gauss rifle for a mind widening slice of information.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 5:11:29 PM
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How many rounds do you reckon there are in sheds across Australia ?

That horse has bolted, well and truly.

So what then ? Tighten up on any new purchases and registrations, written records of purchases of both guns and ammunition, only with ID. Waiting period while psychiatric checks.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 17 February 2016 5:22:58 PM
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That would be one way, Joe, but the same criteria would need to be applied to politicians.,or anyone seeking public office.

But how to stop the modern guns, especially the ray guns that are being developed, both by professionals and amateurs.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 18 February 2016 1:30:46 AM
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It wouldn't matter how much of that antique ammunition is in 'sheds'. Farmers and cullers for example, are obliged by the tyranny of distance and expensive freight charges (Howard's bureaucratic regime had a nasty effect there too) to have more stock.

Nothing to do with the bikies and other gangs, often Middle Eastern, whose business model requires illegal weapons, scary 'gangsta' models, they bring in through Australia's porous borders and that hit and miss Customs inspection, where Canberra will not adequate staff and skill customs officers.

While on the subject, it appears that many of what police publicity and meeja hacks call discoveries of 'weapons caches' (along with other ludicrous descriptors such as 'high powered' -Daisy air rifles in one photo supplied to tabloid hacks by police spin doctors), arise from far less exciting, mundane circumstances, a legitimate firearms dealer has not been coping so well with the bureaucratic paper chase that is 'gun control'.

The gunsmith could in turn remark that if the police firearms registries were to be charged an convicted for all of their errors there wouldn't be a staffed weapons branch in the country. They'd be wearing their own cuffs.

Tony Abbott was hugely embarrassed through making ass of himself by stating emphatically that the Martin Place terrorist used a registered gun. No it wasn't and as a sawn down piece it was illegal anyhow. However the main point there is that Howard's 'gun control' was once again revealed as wrongly targeted (against law-abiding, licensed citizens) and laughingly ineffective against offenders.

John Howard the wedge-politician, with an obviously ill-fitting, over-large bullet proof vest (for the media photos), standing in front of thousands of respectable licensed Aussies and blame-shifting Port Arthur to them, epitomises the lie of 'gun control'. Trampling over the rights of good men and women who do obey laws and confiscating their lawfully procured and used property is NOT going to deter or 'control' criminal offenders.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 18 February 2016 1:42:25 PM
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What is needed is evidence-based regulations and a proper, independent examination of the roots of violence in Australia. That and charges and severe PUNISHMENT for the gangs who quite obviously are adept at influencing and managing politicians behind closed doors.

Honestly, how does it work that one of the first priorities of the arrogant Labor and Greens in Queensland is disrupting and 'deep sixing' the success VLAD anti-criminal gangs laws? That is in direct conflict with what police, business and the population of Qld want.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 18 February 2016 1:45:44 PM
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Toni,

Some info from Wikipedia: The most common air gun calibers are

.177 (4.5 mm): the most common caliber. Mandated by the ISSF for use in international target shooting competition at 10m, up to Olympic level in both rifle and pistol events. It has also been adopted by most National Governing Bodies for domestic use in similar target shooting events. It has the flattest trajectory of all the calibers for a given energy level, making accuracy simpler. At suitable energy levels it can be used effectively for hunting.
.22 (5.5 mm & 5.6 mm): for hunting and general use. In recent years air rifles and pistols in .22" (and some other calibers) have been allowed for use in both domestic and international target shooting in events not controlled by the ISSF. Most notably in FT/HFT and Smallbore Benchrest competitions. These events often allow the use of any caliber air gun, up to a maximum which is often .22", rather than a fixed caliber.
Other less common traditional calibers include:

.20 (5 mm): initially proprietary to the Sheridan multi-pump pneumatic air rifle, later more widely used.
.25 (6.35 mm): the largest commonly available caliber for most of the 20th century.
Larger caliber air rifles suitable for hunting large animals are offered by major manufacturers. These are usually PCP guns. The major calibers available are:

.357
.45 (11.43 mm)
.50 (12.7 mm)
.58 (14.5 mm)
Custom air guns are available in even larger calibers such as 20 mm (0.79") or .87 (22.1 mm)."

Best of luck trying to 'gun control' the air that we breathe.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 18 February 2016 3:46:23 PM
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Spot the difference:

(1) John Howard implements 'gun control'.

- Not a ripple from organised crime and other drug-dealing, violent filth responsible for gun crime and all manner of other violence.

- No effect whatsoever on reducing or even slightly inhibiting offenders who instead are very pleased that government is blaming ordinary law-abiding citizens for their crime.

- It is all business as usual and boom times for Middle Eastern thugs who are taking over outlaw bikie gangs, shooting up neighborhoods and staking out their exclusive neighborhoods and drug empires.

- No concern at all from leftist human rights lawyers about ordinary law-abiding citizens being recorded on police computers and labelled as 'persons of interest' like common criminals, being constantly monitored by police and being subjected to random inspections and interrogations in their homes by uniformed police with the fully marked police vehicle outside.

(2) Qld Premier Campbell Newman implements his Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act 2013 (VLAD) after bikie thugs surrounded a police station, demanding release of a suspect. It is one of many acts of defiance and violence by the gangs, including brawling in a family restaurant. VLAD is an act of the Parliament of Queensland to "severely punish members of criminal organisations that commit serious offences".

- Organised crime including the drug-dealing outlaw motorcycle gangs, are vehemently opposed,

- Labor and Greens are vehemently opposed, despite the clear support of the public, business and police for the much-needed and in practice highly successful VLAD.

- A bevvy of self-declared 'human rights lawyers', some well known for representing notorious criminal figures, declare that VLAD law is 'unfair' to criminals. They shamelessly continue with their claims that bikies 'rights' are affected, despite the failure of the bikies' challenge to the High Court.

- Bikies and other crime gangs wind down their operations in Qld and depart for easier pastures, incidents of violence and gun offences markedly reduced as police take advantage in particular, of the vastly improved intel from VLAD.

tbc
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 19 February 2016 11:49:04 AM
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contd..

(3) The incoming Labor Palaszczuk government moves with extreme haste to spike the guns of the hereto successful VLAD and to deep six the legislation.

- Immediate protests from the public, business and police who demand for the VLAD laws to continue. Palaszczuk ignores protests and continues with Labor's 'review' of the VLAD law.

- Police and courts see an immediate increase in the activity of crime gangs and bikies who thumb their noses at authority and are publicly boasting that they are again untouchable and it is back to business as usual.

- Police report that new particularly violent gangs are setting up business in Queensland. Wars over drug and stand-over territory are on the increase.

Now if you were a criminal which would you prefer?

The 'gun control' of those secret squirrel overseas interests who are constantly interfering in the domestic affairs of western democracies and whose avowed goal is to disarm the law-abiding, licensed civilian populations.

Or,

Regulations based on EVIDENCE, on risk analysis and properly constructed treatments. Regulations like Premier Newman's well-targeted VLAD that quickly and very obviously reduced organised crime in Queensland?

Trampling over the rights of good men and women who do obey laws and confiscating their lawfully procured and used property is NOT going to deter or 'control' criminal offenders.

Next question, is it dumb-arsed laziness, political cynicism or something more sinister that causes some politicians to support the fraud of 'gun control' and to undermine obviously successful initiatives like courageous Campbell Newman's Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act 2013, to "severely punish members of criminal organisations that commit serious offences".
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 19 February 2016 12:11:22 PM
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Toni,

It seems that the first use of a military repeating rifle was by Austria in the 1780s, this was an air gun and held enough air for around 30 shots.

Best of luck controlling the ammunition; you could try controlling the manufacture of round lead balls, but if they have a tiny hole through them to take fishing line then they are sinkers.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 19 February 2016 3:16:34 PM
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Don't forget the laser guns, pew pew!

A ban on 9V batteries!
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 19 February 2016 10:09:48 PM
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Good point, Bugsy; laser guns are only in their infancy but already home made ones are able to ignite paper and capable of causing temporary blindness at some distance, and possibly permanent blindness.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 20 February 2016 2:22:28 PM
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I guess that's why laser devices above 1mW are already restricted.

pew pew

How's those home made lightsabers coming along? Let me know when you finally make them, I want one.
Posted by Bugsy, Saturday, 20 February 2016 2:59:37 PM
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Bugsy,

Seems that a simple magnifying glass is used to concentrate the beams or some such, I'm not an experimenter in that field.
I prefer 18th Century firearms technology.

Some one remarked that defensive use of firearms doesn't seem to be used, here's one example:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/11/worker-fired-for-carrying-gun-on-company-property-given-job-back.html
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 20 February 2016 4:09:11 PM
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Another crazed gun owner has gone on a rampage in the US, when will it stop? Uber driver Jason Dalton has been charged with six counts of murder over an alleged shooting rampage in Mitchigan. In a lawless gun happy society like the US, this type of thing is common place. Unfortunately there are those in our own society who would be happy to see gun laws here relaxed to the point where rampage murders by gun owners like Jason Balton would also become common place.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 23 February 2016 8:16:14 PM
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Sorry Is Mise,

My internet has been having some issues for the past few days. I'd have responded to you sooner otherwise, for I am intrigued by the notion of a hand held linear accelerator. My understanding has long been that coil guns are only practical on the scale of artillery weaponry, and that a hand-held gauss gun has about as much basis in fact as the Arnold Schwarzenegger film 'Eraser' (in which Arnie wields two rail guns with devastating effectiveness, with zero recoil. I love action movie physics.)
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 23 February 2016 10:39:12 PM
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Toni,

Glad your computer is computing!!

Just Google Gauss rifles and there is quite a bit about them and there is a good video of a holf
dozen bottles of soft drink being busted with a steel projectile, enough power for the gun used to be a lethal weapon.
Not up to the power of air guns and cross bows but still effective.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 24 February 2016 2:44:51 AM
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Is Mise, what about the here and now? It wasn't a half dozen bottles of soft drink that gun owner Jason Dalton busted in Mitchigan! It was a half dozen innocent people.
Like those unreal Hollywood movies, some on the gun lobby side are living in a make believe Rambo world where gun toting citizens like this Jason Dalton would be given a free hand to carry out death and destruction on the rest of the community, Rambo style.
Unlike the Hollywood version we can't just walk out of the theater and back into reality, that is the reality!
What type of weapon(s) did Dalton use, was it all done legal?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 February 2016 4:45:01 AM
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//Just Google Gauss rifles and there is quite a bit about them//

Is there much discussion of the physics? That's what interests me. The speed and power with which the projectile is expelled is far less fascinating than the underlying mechanism by which it is propelled.

If I google gauss rifles, am I just going to wade into a big dick contest about muzzle velocity (yawn), or I will I get a proper insight into the underlying physics?

//Good point, Bugsy; laser guns are only in their infancy but already home made ones are able to ignite paper and capable of causing temporary blindness at some distance, and possibly permanent blindness.//

Class 4 lasers are used in industry to cut steel; I'm pretty sure you're made of weaker stuff than steel. The closest I've come is a class 3 infrared laser (twice the fun, because the beam is invisible).

And yes, they can send you blind. Happily, they won't stunt your growth or make your palms hairy.

//How's those home made lightsabers coming along?//

Lightsabers don't utilise laser technology. Why does everybody get this wrong? They must all be trekkies. A lightsaber blade is made of plasma, not coherent light. Look it up on Wookieepedia, you god-damn trekkie.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 24 February 2016 9:09:07 PM
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Paul,

The latest shooting in the US rather illustrates my point, 6 dead by gun and it gets Australia wide coverage whereas the 6 by knife didn't rate a mention.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 24 February 2016 9:50:24 PM
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Sorry Tony, I must have got confused when I was watching the Doctor blast Emoks with his sonic phaser thingy.
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 25 February 2016 8:40:22 AM
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