Being Australia Day today - it's a day of
mixed emotions as we look at the past and
look to the future. Some people have brought
up the subject of whether we need a new flag
should we become a Republic.

I thought it might be interesting to see what
the posters of OLO think, and why.

Your thoughts please?

Yes, we need to get rid of the ridiculous Cross of Saint Patrick which is an affront to vexillology; other than that it's OK as it is.

Dear Is Mise,

So you want St. Patrick's Cross deleted but you're
ok with the rest of the Union Jack?

I don't think we need a new flag. However if we do decide to change it, I think we should use the kangaroo from the Australian Made logo.

Dear Aidan,

Google images for new Australian flag.
There's quite interesting designs using
the kangaroo logo as well as other designs.

Funnily enough, if we were to divest ourselves from our current flag, and I see no real reason why we should, I would like to see it replaced with the existing Aboriginal flag with it's striking colour mix.

It is time to change the flag to represent the new Sino-Australian nation. The Anglo-Australian nation has come to an end so we should definitely remove the Union Jack from the flag's canton and replace it with something that signifies our Chineseness. As such I would suggest retaining the Southern Cross and States' star but using the red and yellow flag of our new brothers - the Peoples Republic of China - as the canton.

Mr Opinion,

The Union Jack is not on the Australian flag.

Foxy,

Yes, keep the same flag but just remove the so-called Cross of St. Patrick.

Hi Foxy. I do think we should change the Australian flag.
I think there is too much blue on the current boring flag, so I would like to see warm Australian colours of red and gold added to the current flag.

We need to keep the southern cross stars, but not a Commonwealth star, as some have suggested.
We need to move on from Britain and add Aboriginal symbols like a kangaroo or boomerang.

Maybe I will design one myself :)

Foxy,

Seen them before. Just saying that's the best one if we do decide to change flag.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Suseonline,

A kangaroo that includes a boomerang is better than one or the other.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Is Mise,

The Union Jack is the pattern of the British flag. We certainly do have it on the Australian flag at the moment.

WTF do vexillologists have against the Cross of St. Patrick?

______________________________________________________________________________________

Mr Opinion,

Though Australia has a long history of Chinese immigration, the actual numbers of immigrants are much lower than those from the UK. Even among recent arrivals they're only slightly lower than Poms, and way behind Indians. Chinese people may be more visible (as they tend to live near CBDs and universities) but it's likely most of the people you assume to be Chinese aren't.

And more importantly, we don't have constitutional links to the PRC (or the ROC or any other Chinese territory), nor even strong cultural links. Whereas from Britain we inherited a lot of laws and a language, and we source a significant proportion of our media from there too.

//Yes, keep the same flag but just remove the so-called Cross of St. Patrick.//

Feck off. The only change the union flag needs is the addition of the cross of St. David or the Welsh wyrm.

//The Union Jack is the pattern of the British flag. We certainly do have it on the Australian flag at the moment.//

No, we have a union flag: the term jack only correctly applies when it is being flown on a naval vessel.

As for a new Australian flag: I like the eureka stockade flag.

I believe there are more pressing issues to deal with than the superficial nonsense of flag changing.

John Key in New Zealand has committed $26M(NZ) to discuss the 'New flag' non issue. Certainly a non issue with most Maori. Firstly there were thousands of entries from the sublime to the ridiculous, one a giant black kiwi with lazer beams shooting from its eyes (it didn't win). NZ had a vote and five contenders were picked from I think 20 nominated by an expert panel, what a flag expert does when he's not experting flag contenders is anyone guess.
Now the 5 contenders are going to go up against the existing flag (which for some Kiwi's looks too Australian) in another vote off.
Key is doing all this as a distraction from the other problems facing NZ.
I asked my partner if she was going to vote in the referendum? Her reply; What, waste my time voting for a piece of pakeha rag when our people suffer the way they do at the hands of such people.
The United Tribes of Aotearoa had their own flag in 1835, long before the European produced his. Another interesting story how that flag came about. Aotearoa shipped a boat load of trade goods to the NSW Colony (Sydney) to sell. The NSW Governor confiscated the entire cargo and the boat on the illegal flimsy grounds the ship did not fly a recognised flag. NSW still owes the Maori $40m (today's value with interest) for that boat and cargo.

o sung wu " I would like to see it replaced with the existing Aboriginal flag with it's striking colour mix." You are not as conservative as you pretend to be. You can't be conservative and have a conscience at the same time, one or the other will have to go, otherwise you are in danger of being labeled a "progressive", by you know who.

Dear Aidan,

Have you ever been to Sydney? One of the first comments people from overseas say after visiting Sydney goes something like 'I thought I was in Hong Kong". In another 10-15 years urban Australia will be almost totally Chinese. Your typical Aussie in suburban Sydney is selling up and heading for the bush to make way for the influx of Chinese. I reckon that every second person you see on the streets of greater Sydney is Chinese. I don't know what part of Australia you live in but I'm pretty sure from your comments that it definitely isn't Sydney. Why don't you come and have a look for yourself if you don't believe what I am saying is true.

As early as 2006, Brisbane to take an example was over 25% migrants. That is from the ABS.

The cost of providing the necessary road, health, energy and water infrastructure is horrendous and has been breaking the backs of young workers especially for years. Simply put, the taxes and housing costs are so high through unnecessarily extreme immigration numbers that government reports state that young Aussie couples are not able to have the children they have worked and planned for. -Because they cannot afford to do so (or cannot afford a child until too late for the woman's fertility).

On many threads previously, I have provided population break-downs from reliable sources as the government 'Population Atlas'. However there is no way astroturfing lobbyists for 'Open Borders' and 'asylum seekers' and who have been sucking $millions out of the taxpayer for years are going to be interested in numerical and financial facts. But then the 'Big End of Town' is not interested either and for obvious self-serving reasons.

That is even where Labor State Premiers themselves have admonished the federal government and pleaded for the excessive immigration to pause and continue more sensibly and at a greatly reduced level.

The three political parties who monopolise the media, Labor, LNP and Greens, have the tiger by the tail where excessive immigration and the reckless 'diversity-Australia-has-to-have' policies are concerned. All are caught up in a Ponzi scheme of immigration, cynically serving their own political interests, which is usually the short term goals of winning marginal seats (in the Weast of Sydney for example) and political populism where the tabloid media are concerned (and the ABC is fighting hard to be included in that category).

A new flag is just another cynical diversion to keep discussion and any close examination away from the problems of over-zealous immigration, new records that were set annually for years, and the effects of that on the exasperated public.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions.

There obviously are pros and cons concerning replacing
our flag. These should be decided by the Australian public
in which direction the country wants to go.
My preference would be for a new flag - and there are so
many designs to chose from. However I would prefer that
we become a Republic first - hence the removal of what
represents the UK from the flag. I would prefer for us
to be an Independent nation, ruling ourselves, and not
tied to a Head of State who represents another country
and their interests - hence a new flag. I think the
Southern Cross should be part of the design - but not
the Commonwealth star.

Foxy,

I don't see any motivation to change the flag until such time as we become a republic. While I support becoming a republic, I agree with Turnbull that this is not the time to hold a referendum on the issue, primarily because given the mood of the public presently it is very likely to lose. This will not only cost $ms but block any further attempt for another couple of decades.

As for changes in the flag design, I am a traditionalist preferring references to heritage rather than populist current issues than could change in a decade or two.

You can tell we are in for a bad time. It is always the same when things are going pear shaped that the old red herrings of republics and new flags pop up to distract the proles.
Next on the agenda will be another push for same sex marriage.
It is of course not going to make one iota of difference to the Armageddon getting closer by the day of global warming, huge refugee intakes, peak oil ( yes it has peaked but the Saudis are playing silly buggers with flooding the market) and of course our own state of politics which could well be screened as the latest comedy.
Oh well as the sea level rises. Sydney gets blown away with a Tornado, all the trucks and cars stop dead with no fuel after the Iranians block the Straits of Hormuz, Europe collapses due to millions of refugees and of course the BIG financial crisis hits.
Still we will go down with (all) new flags flying.

As some one stated - the only constant in life
is change. Many fear it yet it often turns
out not to be as bad as we thought it would be.
Perhaps we should embrace it?

For those that understand the symbolism of our current flag knows the history it represents. Any other flag would merely be a work of art and not have the same symbolic meaning or history. What has a kangaroo or boomerang hold in symbolism for our culture or history? A flag must represent a culture or history.
Example:
Blue represents the sky under which we live
Stars represent our aspirations of endeavor
White the purity and integrity of our laws
Red the blood we shed in endeavor to protect our culture.
The crosses the unity of peoples as the foundation of our culture

Fox, "Perhaps we should embrace it?"

The high pressure salesman's tactic, "Trust me, just buy it" (and have your regrets later).

You are asking the public to suspend their critical judgement and take everything on trust, "Never you mind".

Of course you also favour censorship. For example, you rigidly defend the noxious affront to free speech that is Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.

The leftist 'Progressives' have earned a reputation for throwing the baby out with the bathwater and refusing (of course) to be accountable for the unforeseen (one would hope unforeseen) negative consequences of their social experimentation.

What about those 'Struggle Streets'? "Nah, lets spend millions on a new flag. Imagine of all of the rejigging we can do behind the scenes".

So many diversions and so few policies, NONE whatsoever, to improve the lot of the ordinary working young people and young couples too who are staggering under the burden of taxes and user pays to support leftist social reengineering (and the negative consequences).

Dear Shadow Minister,

I also am more of a traditionalist.
The only thing I would like changed in a new flag
is to have the symbols that represent the UK
removed once we become a Republic.

Dear Josephus,

Beautifully put.

I think many people would agree with you.

Possibly what should be removed is the symbols
of the UK. Australia has changed and is not what
it used to be. And, because something has served
us well but no longer represents us does not
mean we should hang onto it (as for example -
knights and dames honours).

Hi there PAUL1405...

I'm sorry there ol' mate but I'm not up with these new tags, 'progressives' etc ? While it is quite true, I am very conservative, I really do find the Aboriginal Flag particularly attractive with it's colour scheme - Black Yellow Red very representative of our huge dry continent, I would've thought? What do you reckon Paul, do you like it?

My humble interpretation of the flag's original meaning?

Black - represents our original inhabitants;
Yellow - representing our vast deserts; and
Red - representing the burning, red hot Sun.

Pretty apposite I would've thought? Only my own opinion Paul?

OTB,

You're reading far too much into things.
After all you don't know me.
Have a nice day!

Foxy,

The only certainties in life are change, taxes and death.

Death and taxes I try to avoid, and change I try to control.

Dear Shadow Minster,

Each to their own.

If we all saw the world in exactly the same
way, there would be no problems with
disagreement among observers.
But what a dull place this would be.
People tend to see the world from a viewpoint of
subjectivity based on personal values and
experience.

Toni Lavis,

No we most certainly do not have the Union Flag on our flag. Something that is part of a flag is not itself a flag. But the pattern is the Union Jack whether or not it's on a flag.

Anyway, the claim that the Union Flag is only the Union Jack when it is being flown on a naval vessel is itself dubious, as it only dates from Victorian times and was never universally accepted.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Mr Opinion,

I'm in Adelaide, but I've been to Sydney twice last year (and several times before that). But I'm wondering how much of it you've seen, as you seem to be assuming the entire conurbation has the demographics of Ultimo or Chatswood! Have you ever been to the Northern Beaches? Glenfield? Bankstown? Blacktown? Rouse Hill? Castle Hill? Auburn? Lakemba? Bondi? You don't see nearly as many people of visibly oriental ethnicity in any of those places. And I remind you again that many people of oriental ethnicity are not Chinese at all.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

onthebeach,

The main problem isn't the cost of the infrastructure, it's the irrational fear of debt that forces governments to foist the cost of it onto the present generation even though future generations will be the main beneficiaries.

AusFlag's websites has some very good arguments
for "Does Australia Need A New Flag?"

They argue the following:

Australia's flag has changed many times.
Our present flag dates from only 1953.
It is usual for national flags to change
from time to time as a nation evolves.

The latest version of the British flag dates
from 1801. That of Canada from 1985. South
Africa from 1994. From France 1848. Israel 1948,
Japan - 1854, Spain 1936 and the United States
1960.

Australia and New Zealand are the only two major
Independent Commonwealth countries that retain
British Ensigns as their national flag.

Some of the reasons given fro why we should change
are: 1) It is not uniquely Australian.
Our flag is often confused with the New Zealand flag
which is very similar to ours. For example when
then Prime Minister Bob Hawke visited Ottawa the
New Zealand flag was raised by mistake.

2) As a defaced British Ensign our flag signifies our
subordination to Britain.

3) The 1900 Australian Constitution and Statute of
Westminister Act (adopted by Australia in 1942) and the
proclamation of the Australia Act in 1986 made it quite
plain that the British Parliament has not control over
the Independeny Commonwealth of Australia. The systems
of Government are completely separate.

4) However the current Australian flag implies Australia
is a colony like Hone Kong and Falkland Islands.

http://www.ausflag.com.au/flag_should_change.asp

Dear Aidan,

I just took a look out of the window. And guess what, you're right, I can't see any Chinese in Sydney. I don't know how I got it so wrong. Do me a favour will you, and poke you head out the window and see how many Eskimos are in Adelaide.

To evaluate the population of Sydney travel on the peak trains out of Central to the north and west and see the population mix. Chinese, Koreans, Philippians, Malayan, Indians and Arabs, about 15 % other nationalities.

Our Prime Minister feels that there should not
be a push for a Republic at the moment. Hence
I would take it that there's no pressing need
for a new flag:

Here's the explanation he gave:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01=26/republic-push-not-a-pressing-issue-for-australia-pm/7114916

Aidan,

First off in is the British Union Flag that is on the Australian Flag, the Union Jack is the flag flown from the Jack shaft of Naval ships that belong to a country that is a Union, the USA has a Union Jack as did the old USSR and the former Union of South Africa.

The Cross of St, Patrick is BS and doesn't and never did represent Ireland.
When that country was forced into union with the rest of the British Isles the Government in London needed a symbol for Ireland on the Union Flag. The recognized Irish symbol was the Harp but it couldn't be fitted into the new flag without putting it in a dominant position so the Red Saltire of the Fitz Geralds (a Norman family) was chosen as it fitted well with the Scots Cross of St Andrew.

The other piece of BS associated with it is that only Martyrs have crosses and St.Patrick was not martyred but died peacefully of old age, in bed.

Aiden

Don't bother with Mr O. You cannot reason someone out of a prejudice that they haven't reasoned themselves into. Mr O has decided we're being overrun by the great yellow hoards and and little things like the facts aren't really of concern for him.

Its a perfect example of uninformed drivel and it just demeans others to try to reason with that drivel.

Josephus, how exactly do you know the people you see are from those countries you mention?
Is it just their facial features, speech and colour you are going on?

How do you know they weren't all born in Australia, or maybe even have family who have been here for generations?

You don't know...

Dear mhaze (& others of a like persuasion),

Can you really blame me if I don't like the fact that Australia's politicians and business leaders have been selling out the Anglo-Australian nation to China for the past three decades?

Hi o sung wu, I do like the Aboriginal flag, and there were plenty flying at the demo on Tuesday, but I do not want it for Australia's national flag, I don't believe it is inclusive enough of all Australian's to warrant it becoming our national symbol. It can be part of it, but not in its entirety.
On the Aboriginal question, I am about reconciliation with our indigenous brothers and sisters, not confrontation, there are those within the Koori community who are angry, and justifiably so, and want to direct that anger towards confrontation with the gubba, but they are a minority and not supported by the vast majority. As a pacifists I cannot, and never will, support any kind of violent action to achieve any goal, no matter how desirable it is.

Paul,

"As a pacifists I cannot, and never will, support any kind of violent action to achieve any goal, no matter how desirable it is."

Not even to save your own life or that of a loved one, or even a stranger against unlawful and potentially fatal attack?

What's wrong with retaining the Southern Cross part of
our flag and simply removing the British symbols?
Our nation has now evolved from what it
once was - and should represent all
of us. Australia's flag as stated earlier has changed many
times. Our present flag dates from only 1953.

Australia and New Zealand are the only two major independent
Commonwealth countries that retain British Ensigns as their
national flags.

If the dominant culture of Australia has moved away from the English language and laws, Westminster Parliament history and conventions; then it is time to change the flag. Think about what our culture is represented by - golden sand beaches, rugged red earth, blue water, Aluminum cans, broken glass and a swinging fist in anger?

Dear Josephus,

The Australian people should choose the design of their
new flag. At present it is not uniquely Australian and
it does get confused with the New Zealand flag. I mentioned
earlier that when the then Prime Minister Bob Hawke visited
Ottawa they raised the New Zealand flag by mistake.

As a defaced British ensign - our current flag signifies our
subordination to Britain. The current Australian flag implies
that Australia is a colony like Hong Kong used to be and
the Falkland Islands.

This does need to change. The design we choose is up to
the people of this nation.

Josephus>> If the dominant culture of Australia has moved away from the English language and laws, Westminster Parliament history and conventions;<<

Josephus. we should still retain the vast majority of the Westminster system, there is no call to ditch that, just to change the flag and appoint an Australian citizen as head of state.......the rest stays. Regarding the design of the flag, the Aboriginal flag with the southern cross would suit me.

Foxy,

"As a defaced British ensign - our current flag signifies our
subordination to Britain. The current Australian flag implies
that Australia is a colony like Hong Kong used to be and
the Falkland Islands."

you forgot to add that other well known British dependency,
Hawaii!

"The flag of the state of Hawaii (Hawaiian: Ka Hae Hawai) is the official standard symbolizing Hawaii as a U.S. state. The same flag had also previously been used by the kingdom, protectorate, republic, and territory of Hawaii. It is the only U.S. state flag to feature the Union flag of the United Kingdom, a remnant of the period in Hawaiian history when it was associated with the British Empire."

Those backward Hawaiians, fancy remembering one's history on one's flag.

Hi PAUL1405...

OK then. How about we replace the Union Jack with the current Aboriginal flag in the top left hand corner, and retain the Southern Cross as it is? That is of course, it's necessary that we change our existing flag at all?

Pacifism, I think we're all essentially peace loving Paul. Unfortunately, circumstances and some people have a way of unilaterally dislodging that pacifism from us, whether or not we wish it to be so? In my case, first it was Vietnam, and later during my working life, I met some really vile, revolting people that took every ounce of self-control to prevent me from beating the 'bejesus' out of them! And had I weakened for just a moment in time, and I did (occasionally) come awfully close, I'd be spending my retirement, luxuriating in the Long Bay Ranch, at Malabar.

Dear o sung wu,

If we are going to become a Sino-Australian nation then we need a symbol to demonstrate this. I think my suggestion of replacing the Union Jack in the canton with a miniature of the red and yellow Peoples Republic of China flag is ideal. It will maintain our image of the southern land while providing for the incorporation of Chinese who will eventually count as the largest ethnic group in Australia within the next few decades. You and everyone else on The Forum needs to stop living in the shadows of the disappearing Anglo-Australian nation and start to embrace your new Chineseness.

A flag emblazoned with the gold rocker, "Welcome to Wonderful Centrelink", would suit the meddling apologists and the millions awaiting a return to Labor+Greens 'Open Borders'.

Oh and in the superior position a sheep being solidly rogered by a wolf would be a nice touch for Labor's Fabians.

Add an emasculated white 'Jack' in the lower far corner. -So apt for the the very vocal Anglophobic dominatrix Jennys, radfembots left over from the previous Millenium.

Dear Is Mise,

You need to research the history of the Hawaiian flag
and what it means to the Hawaiin people. The Union
Jack had a different connotation to them:

http://www.to-hawaii.com/hawaii-flag.php

oops my apologies for the typo in my previous post:

http://www.to-hawaii.com/hawaiian-flag.php

OTB,

Too rude!

Foxy,

You said, "....our current flag signifies our
subordination to Britain...."

Why does the Union Flag on the Flag of Hawaii not symbolize the same thing?

Hi there Mr OPINION...

I dunno Mate, perhaps a nice rickshaw in the top left-hand corner of the flag? We might as well, they'll own us shortly with the amount of investment they're pouring into the country? Is any one of our overpaid politicians watching how much (quality) agricultural land and valuable resources the Chinese are buying up recently? How about the huge dairy conglomerate in Tasmania, the biggest and best in Australia, has been purchased by a Chinese Billionaire and is only waiting for the FIRB to sign off on the deal.

And what is it exactly that the 'Foreign Investment Review Board' is doing? Are they even open for business? And is it true, they're entirely staffed and administrated by the Chinese themselves, and answerable only to Beijing? Moreover, I've heard that it's soon to be gazetted, the 26 January 2017 next, Australia Day, is now to be known as; Sino-Australia Day!

Well it does coincide with the Chinese New Year so why don't we combine the two events and call it Chinese New Year Australia Day. It's the future!

Dear Mr Opinion,

Why select China?

Australia is no more Chinese than it is Indian.
Or any other ethnicity.
There are also many people
from the US, New Zealand, Malaysia,
Sri Lanka, Indonesia, just to mention a few..

They're all now Australian.

Dear Mr Opinion,

"I just took a look out of the window. And guess what, you're right, I can't see any Chinese in Sydney. I don't know how I got it so wrong. Do me a favour will you, and poke you head out the window and see how many Eskimos are in Adelaide."
None on my street. I thought I saw some but on closer inspection they turned out to be Chinese :-)

On a more serious note, what point were you trying to make? I don't dispute there are Chinese people in Sydney. As it's currently our second largest source of migrants, that's only to be expected. But that doesn't mean most people are Chinese. You can't determine the demographics of an entire city from what you see in Chinatown.

"If we are going to become a Sino-Australian nation then we need a symbol to demonstrate this. I think my suggestion of replacing the Union Jack in the canton..."
I'm quite surprised you don't think having a canton on our flag is itself a symbol of of our Chineseness :-)

"with a miniature of the red and yellow Peoples Republic of China flag is ideal."
Not for those who see it as a symbol of the PRC's corrupt and oppressive government.

"It will maintain our image of the southern land while providing for the incorporation of Chinese who will eventually count as the largest ethnic group in Australia within the next few decades. You and everyone else on The Forum needs to stop living in the shadows of the disappearing Anglo-Australian nation and start to embrace your new Chineseness."
It's been 228 years since the First Fleet arrived. In another 228 years it's a near certainty that most young Australians will have Chinese ancestry... but also British ancestry. And probably also American, South African, Vietnamese, Greek, Spanish, Maori, Indian and Indonesian ancestry. And also ancestors from Thailand, PNG, Japan, Korea or the Philippines. But they won't identify as any of those.

They'll identify as Aboriginal!

Many people seem to agree on a new flag.
And the removal of the British symbolism.
The three things that are being stressed
are - simplicity, Southern Cross, and
Green and Gold

Fox, "Many people seem to agree on a new flag"

That's your echo chamber.

Walk outside and see how people are out there demanding that government spend millions on a flag when there are other priorities.

Foxy,

I'm waiting patiently.

OTB,

You call me an "echo chamber?"

Thank You. That's a compliment and I
don't get many of those from you.
It means I'm merely repeating what people
are saying.

Also, that's a good thing. It means I'm standing
out. I'm different than the other people in your
niche and that's exactly where I want to be.

Dear Is Mise,

Check out the link I gave on page 8.
It explains the difference between
what the Union Jack means to Hawaii.
It should be quite clear.

When I drove and walked the streets on Tuesday the only flag I saw was our current one and people were waving it happily, saying, "Happy Australia day!"

I did see one or two aboriginal flags on public buildings, but that represents aboriginal culture.

Foxy,

That does explain the difference but you were talking about perceptions and I ask you, why would peoples perceptions be different?

Hi, o sung wu, I wasn't going to get into a discussion about 'flags' I think its superficial and there are far more pressing issues, but I like talking to you.
If I was having a pick the one in the link below would do me, but if you want the Aboriginal colours, I'm sure that could be accommodated by replacing the green and gold of the 'southern horizon' as they call it at the bottom with the black, yellow and red.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-26/alternative-australian-flags-ranked-by-university-survey/7113992

The Long Bay Hilton, the state government are keen to sell it off for development, its on very valuable land at Malabar. I used to go there when the nursery operated to buy plants, the gates wide open the inmates in their prison greens taking my money and tending the shrubs. One of the best places to get good quality plants in the east, it had a top reputation, Cons make very good gardeners, its not open anymore, that is a shame. they used to have a top class vegie garden as well, grew everything, the worlds biggest caulies etc, the inmates didn't go short for fresh vegies that's for sure. I'll have to ask me old mate about that, he was a tower guard at The Bay for about 30 years, a crack shot, and don't try to escape he didn't miss so he told me.
The Malabar headland is under threat including the ANZAC rifle range, again a juicy bit of land prime for development. Been an issue between state and feds for years. its got a reprieve at the moment, but how long that will last we don't know. The 'Pony Club' is coming back, after being kicked off the headland, that's good.

o, sung wu, we always enjoy the annual rugby league clash between our team The Tigers, 90% Maori, and 'La Per' 90% Aboriginal, the two best teams in the comp. Done the haka on them last year, but it didn't do us any good, they still won by about 10.

An interfering Labor PM, Whitlam, who couldn't manage the important things such as the economy, was responsible for 'that' unsingable dirge of an anthem.

The imperious Whitlam, the cartoonists had him imagining he could walk on water, also got every merchant and naval seaman completely offside by suddenly and unilaterally announcing that the blue version of the national flag was to be used by the Navy and he assumed, by merchant and recreational skippers. It was just another of his 'captain's picks' of which there were many, as he sought to occupy himself and the electorate with 'cakes and circuses' as the nation headed towards banana republic status.

The Australian Red Ensign continues to fly proudly on thousands of vessels daily. In the face-off between an imperious dictator like Whitlam (and his 'International Socialist' mob) and the citizens of Australia, that is what civil disobedience does. The Canberra feds have had to recognise that in writing, they couldn't do anything else.

Now along comes 'Whatever She Says' L'il Willie Shorten, the sly and devious fixer for Union bosses, who hasn't got a policy to speak of and would very much prefer to spruik trashing the Marriage Act and flags instead.

My father was given when he was a boy a flag from the first World war the flag with red as the background instead of blue. I passed it on some 40 years ago to a boy collecting national flags.

Beach "dictator like Whitlam" you are so far right, your wrong. What sort of country do you have in mind for Australia. I can still remember you calling foe a 'Citizen Militia'. In your ideal world we would all be celebrating 'Fearless Leaders Birthday'.

It will be interesting to see what sort of designs
people come up with for a new flag - when and if
Voters decide to replace the current one.
Our current Prime Minister does not appear to be
in a hurry for a Republic. He seems to think that
we should wait until after the Queen's reign.
Of course we don't need to be a Republic to have a
new flag - although I think it would make more
sense if we were.

Dear Paul,

here's a link about the achievements of Gough Whitlam.

Strange they talk about his achievements as being many.
and all positive.

I guess it would only be a few people who'd see the list
mentioned on the link as negative and unimportant.

http://www.whitlam.org/gough_whitlam/achievements

G'day there PAUL1405...

Yeah, I don't mind that (first flag featured in your ABC link) as our new flag, it has a certain brilliance, as well as looking fresh with that colour scheme. And is amazingly bright, representing the panache our country is renowned for Paul!

I've heard the government is looking at options to sell the ANZAC Rifle Range, with the land possibly being rezoned for housing? Somehow I think it highly unlikely Long Bay Gaol itself would be sold anytime soon. The government has ploughed too much into the place in terms of capital investment, to even contemplate closing it.

Furthermore the various stakeholders, representing the judiciary, legal profession, medical, police, even inmates families, wouldn't wish to see the place closed, until and unless a suitable facility could be found.

Yes Foxy, Gough Whitlam's achievements were huge, compare Gough's time in office with his immediate Liberal predecessor William McMahon, who although being a nice bloke, achieved nothing in almost 2 years.
Gough Whitlam is a red rag, in more ways than one, to those of the rabid right, people like Beach.

A bit more Gough and his flakey Ministry and that new flag the leftists are spruiking (they don't want to talk about the CFMEU, 'Struggle Streets and so on) would have featured a bunch of bananas, for the Banana Republic.

Both Hawke and Keating ran anti-Whitlam agendas and policies. Guess why.

It is worth remembering too that Gough Whitlam was yet another Labor PM who desperately tried and failed to rid Labor of the interference and dead hand of the faceless men, now faceless women and men, LOL.

Worst thing is that Labor is full of yes-men and yes-women who are careerist politicians in it for themselves. There is no-one in Labor who would or could ever challenge the union heavies. The CFMEU has treacherous Greens by the short and curlies too.

Dear Paul,

Unfortunately many people remember what the
Governor-General did to Gough Whitlam, rather
than what Gough Whitlam managed to achieve
during his term in office. A list of his
many achievements are listed on the web.

He wasn't perfect of course. What politician
is. But he passed many bills that were for the
good of us all. Medicare was just one for which
I shall be grateful, as well as free university
education.

cont'd ...

We do need a new flag.

Get rid of the British symbolism.

We don't need sybols that are not uniquely
Australian. That infer our subordination
to Britain Our systems of government are
completely separate from the British and our
flag should reflect that. Our national flag
should reflect the fact that we have
changed and evolved as a nation. And keeping
British Ensigns on their national flag
gives the wrong impression. It's an
anachronism.
Even the Queen agrees it should change.

Under Gough and his way-out Ministry, Jim Cairns et al, Australia went damned close to becoming a Banana Republic, with a flag with a bunch of (imported) bananas. Just ask Hawke and Keating.

One more of his major mistakes was the tsunami of taxpayers dollars that set up the victim industry, which continues to be millstone carried by by the taxpayer today. A victim industry where billions of dollars annually go into maintaining the gravy train - pyramids of bureaucrats and NGOs and consultants draining the bucket of taxpayers dollars.

Maybe a flag with a bunch of bananas and the Gravy Train chugging its way across.

It is a rather peculiar belief for some people
that there are people in this country who are
in poverty because they are idle and prefer
to live on "handouts." This view seems to be
fervently held by those who don't know poor
people, who have never tried to raise a family
om welfare payments and have not the vaguest idea
what poverty is really like.

Opinions polls repeatedly show large sections of
the population favouring cuts in welfare spending
or favouring plans to "make welfare recipients go
to work."

These attitudes bear little relationship to reality.
Why do these curious myths persist?
Probably because in this country people feel that
everyone has the same chance to get ahead. If those
who get ahead can claim credit for their success
, then those who fall behind must, logically, be
blamed for their failures. The poor are therefore
supposed to need incentives to work, rather than
help at the expense of the taxpayer.

However there are few complaints, about how
this country pays out far more money in
"handouts" to the non poor than to the poor - in forms
of tax loop-holes and other benefits. This fact generally
escapes attention because these benefits take the
indirect form of hidden subsidies or tax deductions rather
than the direct form of cash payments.

cont'd ...

Our new national flag should be of a design that
would represent all of us in this nation - not
just a select few. It should be uniquely Australian.
Therefore keeping the Southern Cross in the
design would do us all proud and it would be something
that no one could object to.

Dear Foxy,

It must represent a Sino-Australian nation. Similar to the way the Union Jack in the canton and the Southern Cross were intended to represent an Anglo-Australian nation. You must take into account that the Chinese will be the principal ethnic group in Australia within the next few decades. It would be a waste of time to start planning for a new flag that does not take this into account. I have already suggested that a miniature of the red and yellow of the Peoples Republic of China should replace the Union Jack in the canton.

Dear Mr Opinion,

The people of this nation should vote on the design
of the new flag. The same as they should vote on whether
we're going to become a Republic.

It's up to the majority vote of the people of this nation
what design they choose and with what they identify.
Whether Chinese will be the majority at the time of the
vote of the design - we have to wait and see.
The majority may well choose some other design to the one
you're suggesting.

The flag, republic, trashing the Marriage Act are all the diversions of a Labor Party that cannot get its own house in order.

Remember Latham's criticism?

<Former Labor leader Mark Latham slams Labor over gay marriage

FORMER Labor leader Mark Latham has slammed his party’s “obsession” with gay marriage saying it should focus on the nation’s “Struggle Streets” instead.

He told 3AW radio Bill Shorten’s private members bill to push for changes to the marriage act to allow same-sex couples to tie the knot, to be introduced into parliament on Monday, was nothing more than a symbolic gesture.

He said the biggest social issue facing Australia was unemployment, drug use and homelessness in suburbs such as Mt Druitt which was the focus of the SBS documentary, Struggle Street.

“If you are interested in equality and social justice in Australia then what was the really big event in the month of May,” he said. “We had the Struggle Street documentary which revealed that in the nation’s public housing estate, most notably in Mt Druitt people live in conditions that you wouldn’t wish upon your dogs. Absolute chaos, despair and hopelessness in their lives.

“And surely, you would have expected a serious national response from the party of social justice?

“We didn’t hear anything.

“They’re obsessed, instead, by gay marriage.”>

Government needs an effective Opposition, but for years Labor leaders have been frustrated by factions dominated by union heavies.

Shorten is frozen, incapable of dealing with the festering sores, especially from the CFMEU links, that were laid bare not only by the recent Royal Commission, but by Labor leaders themselves, obvious examples being Whitlam & Rudd, but all have had to kow-tow to capricious union demands.

Dear Foxy,

It will definitely be determined by the Chinese majority.

Dear Mr Opinion,

Predicting the future is risky at the best of times.

OTB,

The Labor Party is not our current government.
They no longer control the running of this country.
they are in Opposition. Policies are currently
made by the Coalition. You should talk about them.
We now have a new Prime Minster and what he and his
team will decide to do and where they will direct
funding is what should matter to you is you're
genuinely concerned.
You are directing your criticism at the wrong
people. Its the policies of the current government
that matter.
BTW - Mark Latham is no longer in Parliament. What he thinks
is of little relevance to most people.

Dear Foxy,

I agree. But those of us who are trained in history, sociology and anthropology, like me, are in a very good position to make some accurate determinations about possible outcomes. We can identify social trends that the rest of you are unable to see because you don't have the knowledge and analytical skills held by historians, sociologists and anthropologists. That's why I encourage people to study Arts so that they too can have that knowledge and ability that will help them better understand the world and allow them to have greater control over their lives.

Dear Mr Opinion,

I also have studied the subjects you mention
towards my Bachelor of Arts degree and
I have post graduate qualifications as well.
However, the more I study, the more I realise
how little I know and want to know even more.

I certainly would not say that I have the answers
to the big questions in life. I'm still on my
own road to discovery.

Everything is relative, everything has its story, and
everyone has obstacles to overcome. They are our
greatest teachers.

Each of us goes through transitions and transformations.
The important thing is that we acknowledge them and
learn from them.

Here's something you may enjoy:

Here's to the kids who are different
the kids who don't always get A's
the kids who have ears
twice the size of their peers
or noses that go on for days
Here's to the kids who are different
the kids who are just out of step
the kids they all tease
who have cuts on their knees
and whose sneakers are consistently wet
Here's to the kids who are different
the kids with a mischievous streak
for when they have grown
as history has shown
it's their difference that makes them unique.

(Digby Wolfe).

Fox, "Policies are currently made by the Coalition. You should talk about them"

LOL, that's the ABC's defence for its obvious lack of balance. Seconded of course by the 'independent' reviewer, the walking, talking wig - talks through it too.

The ALP and Greens get all of the free shots that way and don't have to propose or defend any alternative policies and their shabby record in government, under Rudd or Julia Galah'd for example.

All need to be subjected to scrutiny and held accountable.

Now, when will Willie Shorten do something about Labor's links with the CFMEU and others?

Dear Foxy,

Thank heavens for that! I was beginning to think that I was the only Arts graduate on The Forum.

When I describe to people what it is like to do an Arts degree I tell them it is like being placed in a room full of books. When one has completed reading all of the books he/she is given a key to unlock a bigger room with even more books. And when one has completed reading all the books in that room he/she is given another key to yet another room with even more books. And on it goes, ad infinitum. So the motto is one can never know everything. That is one of the principal things that everyone learns by studying Arts.

The professional (or vocational) degrees are a different story. In fields like engineering, law, architecture, business, etc., knowledge is basically finite. Graduates are only taught what they need to work in the profession of their choice. As such they come out of university believing that one can know everything.

Most of the Chinese living in Australia have little support for their old Country and love and enjoy our freedoms.

Mr Opinion,

I studied Arts at Sydney Uni back in the 1980s under such luminaries as R.Ian Jack, Aideen Cremmin and Sybil Jack in History; Stephen Gaukroger, Paul J. Crittenden and others that I dis-remember in Philosophy.
My memory is a blank on the English department as it is on Anthropology although I enjoyed anthrop. very much.

One of the great benefits that come to an Arts Graduate of Sydney is the lifetime pass to the Fisher Library!!

Mr Opinion,

Your "room full of books" analogy is weird. Why do you have to finish reading all the books in one room before you move on to the next? It seems so anomalous in the information age!

I am ASTOUNDED by your claim that "In fields like engineering, law, architecture, business, etc., knowledge is basically finite. Graduates are only taught what they need to work in the profession of their choice. As such they come out of university believing that one can know everything."
You're wrong on all counts:

Knowledge is not finite. There is a huge amount of it beyond what students learn in uni, and it's increasing all the time. And (at least in engineering) nor is what students are taught restricted to what they need to work in their chosen profession. Engineering probably includes more transferrable skills than anything else.

Engineering graduates nowadays don't believe they can or do know everything. But they do have a good idea of where they can find out more. And nor do they underestimate the significance of what they know. Most problems, including some that many people would consider unsolvable, can be solved without having to know everything.

Engineers know that predicted results depend very heavily on assumptions. You think you better understand the world, but it's a case of GIGO:
GARBAGE IN: You assume a much higher rate of migration from China to Australia than the statistics show.
GARBAGE OUT: You spout racist crap about us becoming "a Sino-Australian nation".
GARBAGE IN: You think a nation's flag must take ethnicity into account (even though the only ones that currently do are Ireland, Israel and a small minority of African and Caribbean countries).
GARBAGE OUT: You make the ludicrous proposal of replacing the Union Jack on our flag with it's Chinese equivalent, despite the fact that no part of Australia has ever been a Chinese colony, we don't share a legal system with China, and most Aussies can't speak Chinese.

If we ever change the flag, it will be to emphasise our independence, not our links with another country.

Dear Josephus,

I totally disagree with your comment that the Chinese living in Australia have little support for their old Country. It does not make sense in light of the historical, sociological, anthropological and archaeological evidence. The millions of Chinese of the diaspora believe that they belong to a superior race and civilisation that can be traced back 5000 years (a period contemporary with the beginnings of Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilisations). Once each year all the Chinese of the diaspora come together with the Chinese New Year festivals to partake in a celebration of their connection to each other and their ancestral homeland by recognising that they are all descended from the grassroots kin system of the original Chinese civilisation. Don't count on them being Australian when it most matters.

Dear Is Mise,

I did the first of my three Arts degrees at Sydney in the 80s too. We were probably in some of the same classes. Foxy, you and me now makes three of us on The Forum with Arts degrees. Hopefully there will be others. Keep your fingers crossed.

Dear Aidan,

You have just demonstrated that you have the typical level of education that one expects to see in an engineer. Why do you think I decided to do Arts degrees after completing my engineering degree? Most engineers I have worked with over a long period acknowledge that they have only been educated to perform in their chosen profession. If I want to know about the past, or about a particular culture, or about social behaviour, etc., the last person I would approach for an explanation is an engineer. In a nutshell, engineers are anti-intellectual and illiberal. That's what makes them engineers.

You and I, it's not you and me. Besides all that wealth of learning in such diverse subjects as, sociological, anthropological and archaeological, where did you get the time to learn to beat your own drum so loudly?

//If I want to know about the past, or about a particular culture, or about social behaviour, etc., the last person I would approach for an explanation is an engineer.//

On the other hand, if I want a bridge that stays up I'll ask a civil engineer. If my dog gets sick I'll take him to vet; if I get sick I'll visit a doctor. There are lots of degrees which are almost entirely vocational in nature, and that's because we need doctors, engineers, nurses, teachers, vets etc.

What we don't really need are huge numbers of navel-gazing BA (Bachelor of Attendance) graduates. They have their place, but if everybody wanted to major in Art History and Gender Studies instead of studying useful stuff society would run into problems.

Dear Paul1405,

Can you please cite the Law of English that says 'Thou Shalt Not Use Informal English'? As far as I know there are no laws governing English usage and we are pretty much free to use whatever we want in whatever social context we want.

And anyone can make gain on another's transgression from formal language usage. For example you have just used 'sociological, anthropological and archaeological' as nouns instead of adjectives. I think your grammatical error is a much bigger one than mine. But don't worry, we all can work out what you are saying. And no one (except me) is worried about picking you up on it.

It is fun generalising.

Engineers are not interested in and not aware of social issues? -Of all of the generalisations here, that allegation would be the most likely to make any engineer's blood boil. Think about it, wtf are engineers designing for?

Engineers cannot perform/contribute effectively in multidisciplinary teams?

Purely vocational?

How old are you guys? All professions have changed. That is if they ever were so limited (in living memory).

It is worth noting that at one time Syd. Uni. required Engineering students (among others) to do a certain number of Arts courses, to 'humanize them', as it was put.

Nah, Mr Onion can't be bothered, not much energy expanded there cut and paste.

Engineers are not interested in and not aware of social issues? This one is.

Is Mise, a form of shock treatment?

Dear Mr Opinion,

The consumers of education today are well aware
that educational credentials are the key to
social mobility.

Traditionally, people went to university to study
academic subjects that interested them, in order
to develop and broaden their minds.

Today, many people go to university to study
vocational subjects that frequently bore them, in the
hopes of enhancing their job prospects. Even in the
past two decades, there has been a sharp decline
in the percentage of undergraduates who intend
to major in such subjects as English, foreign
languages, literature, history, and philosophy - fields
that demand reading ability, critical and analytical
thinking, and writing skills, but which do not lead
directly to specific jobs.

Twenty years ago, half of the undergraduates intended
to major in the liberal arts - the natural sciences, social
sciences, and humanities. But today less that a quarter seem
to do so.

The most popular field currently is business; a quarter
of undergraduates now choose this single field for their
major, and graduate business schools have shown a great
increase in enrollments. The major reason for this
seems to be "to be able to make more money."

Harvard introduced some humanities studies in its MBA program at least two decades ago.

The generalist study does not necessarily improve decisions. The proof of the pudding is often in the eating and that is why it is not a seller's market for BAs. If honesty was to prevail, there is a far higher likelihood that BA graduates are far more likely to present as immature in the workplace because they do not have the benefit of the required work placements of engineers (say).

With his proper study and life experience Mr Opinion was more likely to gain benefit from his later humanities programs. Many parents (and students) wish that teachers were required to get some other work experience in the real world.

Most people pick up the necessary skills on the
job, not in the classroom and the characteristics
that make for a successful career such as
initiative, leadership, drive, negotiating ability,
willingness to take risks and persuasiveness are
not even taught in colleges and universities.

Colleges and universities produce graduates with
any number of educational credentials but with
few specifically job-related skills. In fact,
many people never put the specific content of their
college or university education to direct use in
their jobs, and many of the country's
college and university graduates actually work in fields
they consider unrelated to their major subjects.

On the whole a higher credential means higher earnings,
simply because of the value the job market places on it.

Numerous studies have shown that there is little or no
relationship between educational achievement and
job achievement and job performance or productivity.

For example, good graduates in a graduate school of
medicine or education are poor predictors of whether someone
will become a good doctor or teacher.

The fact is that the skills required to get an A grade in
a university or college course on anatomy or educational
philosophy are not the same as the skills needed to deal
with a medical emergency or an unruly junior high-school
class. The schools , universities and colleges teach
anything that is directly relevant to the world of work.
As stated earlier most people pick up the necessary skills
on the job - not in the classroom.

The current flag at the top left hand corner doesn't represent our heritage, it represents those who invaded the land and butchered the inhabitants. When a multi-ethnic, multicultural band of heroes defied the British at Ballarat on December 03 1854 they set us on an unstoppable course to become a proud, independent, democratic nation which is still a work in progress. That's our heritage. Their flag, the Eureka flag, belongs where the British symbol currently detracts from our national flag.

Dear Emperor Julian,

Quite a few people recommend the Eureka Flag
as our National Flag. Some of them believe
that it stands for justice, egalitarianism,
and multiculturalism. Three things that
define Australia now.

I am hesitant about having it as our
National Flag. I admit yes - it is an
important historical artefact. However I
associate it with unions.

I would prefer simply to only remove the
British symbols - keep the Southern Cross.

One of the benefits flowing from the ground-breaking rebellion at Eureka (though a long while after it) was a nation in which workers could organise unions to protect their interests. The fact that the Eureka flag is commonly adopted by unions is hardly a surprise. The growth of unions is part of our heritage to celebrate, not to cringe away from.

Mr Opinion,

"You have just demonstrated that you have the typical level of education that one expects to see in an engineer."
If you mean the capability to think and argue logically, that's true. But perhaps more significantly, it's something you've failed to demonstrate. Have you forgotten what you learned in your engineering degree?

If you're implying that I lack education beyond "the typical level of education that one expects to see in an engineer" then I have demonstrated no such thing, and any assumption to the contrary is due to a lack of comprehension on your part.

"Why do you think I decided to do Arts degrees after completing my engineering degree?"
Either because you found you couldn't get work as an engineer or you found working as an engineer dull (possibly because engineering wasn't really your vocation but you'd been pushed by someone else into studying it). But you liked uni and there were no fees in those days, so you decided to study something completely different.

Am I right?

"Most engineers I have worked with over a long period acknowledge that they have only been educated to perform in their chosen profession."
Are you sure that refers to the extent of, rather than the reason for, their education?

"If I want to know about the past, or about a particular culture, or about social behaviour, etc., the last person I would approach for an explanation is an engineer."
It would make sense to go to someone who specialises in whatever you want to know about, but an engineer is more likely to give you a good answer than a random person.

"In a nutshell, engineers are anti-intellectual and illiberal. That's what makes them engineers."
No they aren't and it isn't. What makes them engineers is the abilities they have, many of which they acquire when doing an engineering degree. I can understand why you might jump to the conclusion that engineers may be illiberal (you're not the first conflate the different meanings of 'tolerance') but why do you think engineers are anti-intellectual?

Dear Aidan,

The reason I went on to do Arts degrees was because I thought I could do better with my life than be an engineer.

Engineers have been responsible for every created device you use today, they use the physics available to them to move mountains and launch man into the universe, and create medical machinery. They do not just talk about things they are creators and developers that have improved our lives.

Mr Opinion, "The reason I went on to do Arts degrees was because I thought I could do better with my life than be an engineer"

That is reasonable. Most engineers move onto something else and are very valuable, especially with their project management skills.

BTT

Mr Opinion,
There is a difference between the Chinese Culture and the recent Regime in power. The Taiwan population do not accept the Regime and if you understand Tienanmen square protests the population is not happy with the regime either and its flag.

http://time.com/2822290/tiananmen-square-massacre-anniversary/

Dear Mr Opinion,

"The reason I went on to do Arts degrees was because I thought I could do better with my life than be an engineer."
That sounds like an amazing achievement if you could accomplish it!

Did you? If so, how?

Dear Aidan,

As Sheldon in the TV sit-com Big Bang Theory would say to you: 'Remember Aidan, you're just an engineer.'

And I think that sums it up. I would hate to go through my life as an engineer while knowing that there is an opportunity do be something better. So I changed the path my life was taking and now I happy I did so. When you come to the end of your life Aidan you will still be 'just an engineer' to quote Sheldon

Mr Opinion,
Who are the ones remembered by History?
It is those who have changed the face of our planet, and have dreamed of reaching the stars - engineers.
Dreamers, planners and designers of industry and invention they have left their heritage on humanity. Artists work hang in galleries and sit on shelves in libraries and appreciation is merely appropriated by a few. Everything around your office has been created by an engineer including the books on your shelves and the paper and frames of the pictures on your walls. Do not underestimate the role of engineers!

Mr Opinion,

Yes, I'm just an engineer. So was Isambard Kingdom Brunel.
What did you manage to do that's better?

BTW, once each year all the Irish of the diaspora come together with the Saint Patrick's Day festivals to partake in a celebration of their connection to each other and their ancestral homeland... Does that mean we can't count on them being Australian when it most matters?

Mr Opinion, "And I think that sums it up. I would hate to go through my life as an engineer while knowing that there is an opportunity do be something better. So I changed the path my life was taking and now I happy I did so"

Fair enough too. I would be the last person to criticise anyone who pursues lifelong learning and a dream. Few contemplate that and even fewer take the practical steps.

I remember how years slipped by for me when I was being 'highly creative' and 'adding value', read as increasing business, for a global. Not criticising the company or the work and yes, it did produce results. I loved the challenges and the adrenalin, but there are long periods of years when all I can remember are the projects and urgency and the whole days devoted to work. Workaholic.

Now, what about a flushing toilet in the Canton of that 'Progressive' new flag? Or a baby being thrown out with the bathwater?

Mr Opinion,

I took Arts as a Mature Age Student for an interest and having been involved in engineering of one sort or another most of my working life I later took Engineering after I'd retired, mainly out of interest and to see how I'd do.
I must say that most of the other students were an interesting lot and possessed, both collectively and individually, a lot of knowledge and interests outside of their chosen profession.

I'd like to quote in part from the following
link:

"As the American comedian Jerry Seinfeld once said,
"The current Australian flag is the British flag
on a starry night."

The dominant top left quadrant belongs to the flag
of another nation, making Australian symbolically
subordinate to Britain. That is an anachronism.

This anachronism has been building in the years since
the second world war as Australia's identity
increasingly separated from Britain. Post-war migration
from war-torn-Europe helped further differentiate Australia
from Britain:

http://www.theconversation.com/a-proposal-foor-a-new-mature-australian-flag-24714

Fiji is about to unveil a new flag. The island nation is going to ditch the Union Jack from its flag. Why they waited 45 years to do so is beyond me. The indigenous Fijians owe the British nothing, the Indian population likewise.

Fiji's PM Frank Bainimarama said "The current exercise was a quest for a flag that represents who we are today, rather than our past".

New Zealand, which also has the Union Jack on its flag, will hold a binding referendum next year on whether to change it, with conservative Prime Minister John Key favouring a new design.

Is it time Australia should make such a move.

It isn't a question of whether Australia needs a
new flag. It is a inevitable.
Simply a question of when!

Well Paul1405 and ors, why didn't the the Labor+Greens sidekicks governments of Rudd->Galah'd->Rudd again, take any action? They were in power in Canberra for the long years from 2007 to 2013.

They presided over the 'Struggle Streets' identified by the 'fact-finding' ABC but did nought as well.

Ex-Labor Leader Mark Latham would know and he had this to say,

<Former Labor leader Mark Latham Slams Labor over Gay Marriage

FORMER Labor leader Mark Latham has slammed his party’s “obsession” with gay marriage saying it should focus on the nation’s “Struggle Streets” instead.

He told 3AW radio Bill Shorten’s private members bill to push for changes to the marriage act to allow same-sex couples to tie the knot, to be introduced into parliament on Monday, was nothing more than a symbolic gesture.

He said the biggest social issue facing Austalia was unemployment, drug use and homelessness in suburbs such as Mt Druitt which was the focus of the SBS documentary, Struggle Street.

“If you are interested in equality and social justice in Australia then what was the really big event in the month of May,” he said. “We had the Struggle Street documentary which revealed that in the nation’s public housing estate, most notably in Mt Druit people live in conditions that you wouldn’t wish upon your dogs. Absolute chaos, despair and hopelessness in their lives.

“And surely, you would have expected a serious national response from the party of social justice?
“We didn’t hear anything.
“They’re obsessed, instead, by gay marriage.”>
http://tinyurl.com/Gays-Labor-obsession

Interfering in the private life of gays, trashing the Marriage Act, dumping the flag, the republic NOW! are all smokescreens, diversions for Labor's International Socialists. Labor has no policies and Shorten is frozen in fear, refusing to do anything about the CFMEU and other union heavies, by whose dead-hand he won and holds down his leadership.

Foxy,

"The dominant top left quadrant belongs to the flag
of another nation, making Australian symbolically
subordinate to Britain. That is an anachronism."

and the same set up in the Hawaiian flag makes Hawaii symbolically subordinate to Britain.

Would that not be the perception of people who do not know that Hawaii is a USA state?

What an anachronism for the Hawaiians to have to suffer.

Dear Is Mise,

We've covered this topic earlier.

Hawaiians look at things differently.

Read the link I gave earlier.

Dear Aidan

Isambard Kingdom Brunel was just another engineer like you.

PS Obviously you don't understand how the Chinese kinship system works. But then that's to be expected because you're just an engineer.

Foxy,

Yes, Hawaiians look at things differently.
But a lot of Australians also look at things differently.

I'd be unlikely to support changing the flag to anything that's not based on the three part kangaroo.

________________________________________________________________________________________

onthebeach, I don't agree with Latham on much, but on this he's spot on!

________________________________________________________________________________________

Is Mise,
Originally it may have been BS, but St. Patrick's Saltire definitely did represent Ireland, and is currently the best symbol available to represent Northern Ireland.

The flags of other countries unions may technically be union jacks when flown from the Jack pole of their navy's ships. However they are not referred to as such because that would be a source of unnecessary confusion with THE Union Jack, which is the pattern of the British flag, and (slightly contentiously) the flag itself whatever it's flown from. Some 19th century pedants invented a rule that it was only the Union Jack when flown from the jack pole, but that was never universally accepted.

Dear Aidan,

Of course - but we're talking about the
meaning of the Union Jack specifically -
its meaning to Hawaiians - and it has
a different connotation to them from us.

Cheers.