France with the largest Sunni muslim population in the EU has just suffered yet another racially/religiously motivated massacre of civilians. Given that Merkel has just opened the doors to Syrians I bet that her popularity is going to drop a few more points, and that Germany's and other EU countries immigration policies are going to be rapidly revised.

I welcome input from others.

This was always going to be the end result of multiculturalism.

Australia had just been lucky before. Not forgetting that
The Italian, German and Japanese, Australians were
interred in World War Two. Because there were enemy agents amongst
them sending information to the enemy.
In a war where it wasn't just the volunteer army but the sons and
fathers of just about every family in Australia who had men of fighting age, the Australians weren't going to tolerate any threat
to their families bought about by enemy citizens within.

And rightly so.
They only tolerate it now, because the war is paid for like paying
a man to fix your tap or something and it isn't affecting the population on a personal, all in, basis.

All wars are over control of land and territory, the taking or defending of countries. These terrorist attacks are exactly that.
Not terrorist attacks but territorial attacks, We have threatened
and put the territory of the sunni muslims at risk.
We are now in a territorial fight to the death with them in the middle
east.

Plus they also have their eye on taking Europe and the West if
they can, because with so many muslims in western countries, they
have friends who will support their ambitions to take the West and they are well aware of the possibilities and have an expectation
that if they keep attacking the big western lion. Hit and run, hit and run, they might stand a chance of bringing it down.

When Osama Bin Laden called for a Jihad on Westerners I think he
thought the muslims in western countries might rise up, but there
really wasn't enough of them to do that at that point. Keep bringing them in here and eventually they will have the numbers to wage civil war.

France is suffering what Israel has suffered for decades. You can thank secularist for being in denial of the death ideology and continuing to trash the normal family and every other Christian benefit the West embraced. The hatred of Christ and His teachings has produced a western culture totally bereft of any decency. Secularism has much in common with Islam. They are both death cults and are not interested in truth.

runner-
the church teaches love and peace and the brotherhood of man
the same ideology that the hippy leftists preach, peace and love
brother, so let all these foreign tribes in here and they'll all
hold hands with us and we'll live in peace for evermore.

This has never happened in history except for short periods of history. sooner or later this leads to civil wars, demands for
separatist states, guerilla warfare, plots to put a catholic queen
on the throne of England, so as to take control of England.

I said we would be killed in our own cities 25years ago
as a result of multiculturalism. Well I and others "told
you so."
The proof is there for all to see.

Mankind is a species and we are territorial.

The first attacker to be identified in the Paris outrage, a Syrian entered the EU via Greece in October as a refugee and it's being reported that the cell was operating out of Brussels.
Believe me, I'm not gloating but we "racists" predicted this and we have been screeching about it for months. To be honest it's not even a prediction, all we did was listen to ISIS and take their threats seriously, they promised to send "battalions of Lions" mixed in with the refugees and they threatened to deluge Europe in a human wave of Asylum seekers to cause chaos and disunity.
Well played ISIS, you're as good as your word.

I wrote this here in 2005, after the London bombings and the usual Muslim 'condemnations':

(start)I can even sympathize with Muslims when people question their sincerity, and even their loyalty. ...However, I am very skeptical about Muslims 'condemnations of terror'.

I do not know what is in the hearts of any Muslim. I do know what Muslim's do whereever they are a majority - and it ain't pretty. The fact is that wherever Islam dominates, other religions as well as women and other groups are discriminated against and persecuted.
Based upon this, I have every right to doubt the honesty and sincerity of Muslims. We cannot put our families and civilization in jeopardy because something hurts your feelings. Based upon Islamic countries and websites, there is no doubt that if Muslims ever control a Western country, out goes personal freedom, and in comes sharia law, persecution, hate, anger, killings, and all the other things that bring such joy to the hearts of so many Muslims.

I couldn't care less what Muslims say or how many times they condemn terror. The only valid clue to what Muslims really believe is how they treat people where they are a majority. In case you haven't noticed, they don't even treat other Muslims well. So quit blaming it on everybody else and take a good, hard look at your religion, your sacred writings and even the life of your prophet.

When Islamic countries permit Christian and Buddhist missionaries to walk the streets of Libya and Iran, when non-Muslims have exactly the same rights as Muslims do in all Islamic countries, when women can drive and vote in Arabia, when little girls are not pushed back into buring building because their knees may show, when Copts are not killed and kidnapped by Muslims in Eqypt, when people can openly criticize the life of Mohammud, when men who commit honor slayings are condemned to 30 years, etc... (and etc, you get the idea) THEN we can assume that Muslims are really against terror.(end)

Nothing has changed. We are Stupid, Muslims are deceitful or in denial.

Oh yes, I might have also mentioned, maybe a couple of dozens times in these last 10+ years, that "It will get worse" and that "blood will flow" in my dozens of posts here on The Forum, most of them about a certain religion.

Ha! I am a prophet. Bow before me you infidels and don't forget to mumble the words "praise be upon his black, wrinkled heart" after you mention the sacred word "kactuz".

Thank you. I am sure all of you will take these words seriously.


Oh yes, It will get worser!

I said in 2001 that the war on terror would only lead to more terror.
Right wasnt I!

You cant make war on people and expect them to just roll over and accept it. They WILL fight back.
There will be more of these attacks and they will get worse and worse until we stop bombing, killing and terrorising people. Many of them innocent civilians. This is our fault as much as the terrorists. We are the killers and the murderers just as much as they are.
We are guilty.

FIGHT WAR NOT WARS!

'I said in 2001 that the war on terror would only lead to more terror.
Right wasnt I!

actually totally wrong mikk as usual. The acceptance of Islam as a religion of peace is what has led to terror. Islamist are doing what they have always done but fools who have tried to throw all ideologies and religions in one box ( usually secularist) are reaping what they have sown. Try thinking instead of fitting your warped views in your little pathetic narrative.

Mikk,
The war has been going for 1400 years. Again, you're listening to the wrong people, ISIS has a plan, that plan is based on the prophecies of Mohammed, the early stages of that plan involve drawing the armies of "Rome" into a ground war culminating in an apocalyptic battle at a place called Dabiq in Syria.
The battles we see now are the "wars of greedy men" leading up to the holy war, the present leaders will not be at the head of the armies of Europe and Islam, it's predicted that a Jihadi war chief will emerge in Syria who is so savage that he will "rip the bellies of pregnant women".
Stop listening to the Liberal Muslims, ISIS and Al Qaeda are the front line fighters and the directors of the war on the West and they are quite openly discussing their plans, the sermons are delivered as a promise, not a threat.

Liars!

Moslems were not like this 100 years ago.
Terrorism is a modern phenomenon, funnily enough started by jews in their quest for a homeland 100 odd years ago.

If you idiot godbothers want a war against each other fine. Just leave the rest of us out of it. None of you are honest. All religions are bloodthirsty hate machines and are undeniably at the root of all our wars today. There is nothing peaceful about your hatred runner. You hate the moslems, the moslems hate the jews, the jews hate the xians. Youre all just sick and twisted throwbacks to the dark ages. Thinking does not come into it does it. You are all the same. Terrorists.

Dear God, Please protect us from your followers.

mikki

My prediction of the attacks in Australian cities
predates yours by at least 10 to 15years
Long before the terror attacks began.

History tells me, that all the wars fought through the centuries are between two tribes,(ethnic groups) over control of countrys.

The first world war was kicked off by the resentment of Serbs over
German control of their territories. They asassinated the Archduke
of the royal family. Germany marshalled the army to go to the Serbian
area to deal with them. Knowing what was about to happen, the serbs
called on the Russians to protect them, and so began world war one.
Territorial control conflict.

In world war two, when Germany was decimated by the great Depression,
One tribe, the German tribe, absolutely annihilated the other to take
back control of the German country and vastly depleted economic cake.

Should I mention, the 16th century, when the British army walked
into Ireland and set up government, followed by thousands of
British settlers eager to take the land.
The Irish who objected were beheaded and slaughtered.

And so many decades later, we see the rise of the IRA,
It was a territorial fight not a religious one,
The Ira, made no secret of the fact that they wanted an
Irish Republic. Which loosely translated means, no British
rule. In other words get off our territory.

I could go on with war after war pointing out the territorial
motivation.
Racism is in fact, aggression based on territorial hostility.

They'll never teach that fact in Universities they are too busy
teaching Hippie love and peace and wars about intolerance ideology.

That's why I knew multi-culturalism would at some point lead to
attacks on Australian cities, civil wars and demands for separatist
states etc. History doesn't lie. And the evidence is right
across history.

Then there is of course the territorial dogfight between the
Palestinians and Israel, A territorial war in every respect.

Mikk,
Liar! Muslims were worse 100 years ago, remember a little thing called the Armenian Genocide? There was also the Greek Genocide, 400,000 Greeks were massacred in Ottoman territory during WW1, the Assyrian Christian purges in Iraq led by the Kurds, anti Shia massacres etc etc.
100 years ago our grandfathers were also facing human wave assaults from Turkish Jihadis screaming "Allahu Akbar" as they charged across no man's land in the Dardanelles, Syria and Palestine.

"All wars are over control of land and territory...These terrorist attacks are exactly that."

Sorry Cherful, but you've fundamentally misunderstood the motivations of ISIL and its adherents. Sure they require some territory to fund their programme. But they already have that.

ISIL is of the view that the end-times are near. The prophecies see their caliphate as the harbinger of the return of the Mahdi which will be followed within 19 years by the final judgement day. To instigate the end-times, the armies of 'Rome' must be battled and defeated and 'Rome' (or perhaps Constantinople) occupied. So they are interested in causing the unbelievers to accept the battle that will initiate the glorious time.

Occupation of Europe is not a priority although conquest in whatever form of Rome would be seen as a partial fulfillment of the prophecies. Equally the reversal of what bin Laden called the tragedy of Andalusia (ie the Christian reconquest of Spain) would be seen as a major plus by the caliphate.

For the individual suicide bombers, the aims are a bit more complex. First they are soldiers and slaves of the caliphate and therefore are obligated to follow its dictates. But they are also after individual salvation. They believe that dying in war for Allah elevates them above other Mohammedans. They get a express pass into Paradise and the ability to nominate their family to get a similar pass. And of coarse they also get their 72 permanently virginal wives. (allah had to find over 500 virgins yesterday!).

We fundamentally misunderstand the nature of this war if we think its over territory and resources. The war with ISIL is a war over ideas and world-views. We can, if we choose, easily defeat them militarily. But defeating the ideology is a different matter. The best we can hope for is to isolate ourselves from it and to sanitise our society of it ie keep its adherents out of our nation.

However the current crop of Quislings ruling Europe seem to be actively inviting the threat in. Europe will, if it isn't already, rue the day.

Most of the refugees marching into Europe are Sunni Muslims.

Are we not at war with certain Sunni muslims.

Is it really Assaud they are fleeing from, not so much Isis.

These muslims staged a big uprising against Assaud
storming into Syrian cities by the thousand and thousands.

As we see in Europe big hoards like this can
lead to anarchy and overthrow of government.

Assuad then decided it was war and turned the army on them

Bear in mind the history of the Ottoman Empire in The middle east,
they were muslims and slaughtered Europeans wherever they could
find them.
Putin probably is reading the situation with Assuad
better than the West is, because he would understand the history
of European slaughter in Europe and the middle east under the
muslim ottoman empire.

There would have been the rapes that conquest brings.
Assuad and the people around him look more like a mixed ethnic bloodline of Europe and Arab bloodline to me, whereas the Sunni muslims staging revolts in the streets of Damascus etc, are pure sunni Arab.

Putin may be protecting a related bloodline in Assuad and the tribe around him. Just a thought I wondered about. Going on the very
European looks of some of the people around Assaud and reporters reporting from the capital Damascus.

These territorial hostilities have long historys.

I think we can all agree that all races, countries and religions have massacred others at some time in the past. I doubt the current terrorists have killed as many people as the Germans did, and the rest of the countries fighting in WW 1 and 2 wars, back in those dark days.

The question still remains as to how, in these days of such ease of travel, do we stop anyone going to another country with the intention of committing terrorist acts if they really want to?
You can rant and rave all you want about Muslims, Islam, ISIS or whomever, but I don't see any answer....

Mhaze
Sorry Cherful, but you've fundamentally misunderstood the motivations of ISIL and its adherents

I think my assessment of the true motivation of Isis, is spot on.
Because they want to think of themselves as holy and not of the devil
like the Infidel, they cannot think of their behaviour as being
satanic, so they delude themselves and the world instead that
their motive is holy, therefore it is justified and not murder.

Religion has been used as a smoke screen for basic nasty Human motives
plenty of times before, by the Christian religion,too.

Isis proclaim all these holy excuses, but it is their actions that
say loud and clear, what their base motives are.

When they say, "they want a muslim caliphate world wide,"
Compare it to what Hitler and the Nazis said,

We want a German state of blonde haired blue eyed Germans
worldwide.
Sound familiar?

Right across history,excuses by races and countries,
abound, as to why right was on their side, and when they
can't find a just sounding reason they will play the holy war card in
the name of religion.

But the end result is always ethnic cleansing and the taking of
territory and of course the women.
Typical male territorial behaviour to bring territory under
their control by shooting all the males and taking the females
to produce their offspring only into the territory.

Every male in every species on this planet does this.

Lions will kill the cubs of another male when they manage to take
his territory and take the females to breed their own cubs, this is a genetic survival advantage to them.
What Isis is doing is almost text book, animal and human behaviour.

Look past the excuses and right sounding reasons for wars in
the history books, and you will soon see, that the end result
was the taking or keeping of territory by one side or the other.
and the cleansing of the non related bloodline off the land.

Rich territorial resources are fought over as well.

"Every male in every species on this planet does this...What Isis is doing is almost text book, animal and human behaviour"

Aha! So the lesbian feminists are right then. Boys ARE made of 'Snips & snails & puppy dogs tails' and all manner of things disgusting and can do no better. No chance of making a boy into an imperfect girl, even. It IS their genetic inheritance and there is no changing destiny. Whereas 'Wonderful Womyn', Earth Mothers all, are truly marvelous creations, but NOT of a male God.

The only question that remains is how to get that Feminist Caliphate in place and pronto! That useful idiot Malcolm Turnbull is helping for a time, but he too will be up against the wall when the time comes, eh what?

Yes I know, just another stupid bloke and stupid because men can never see things your way.

Yes of course OTB!
All this terrorism is the lesbian feminists fault no less (and the straight feminists no doubt....in fact, ALL women.)

I can see all those dreaded women now, racing around shooting and bombing everyone.
Maybe those Paris terrorists were actually women dressed as men?
Wow, if only everyone else was as bright as you...

This time I will gloat because among other things we "Racists" have been warning Leftists and Liberals that they and their Cosmopolitan, Hipster lifestyles are the real target of the Muslim Jacobins.
Islamists don't attack hard targets like PEGIDA, Front National or Britain First rallies, they don't target right wing politicians and journalists, no, they hit soft targets like Left wing Charlie Hebdo, a concert hall full of young hipsters, bars and cafes.
The Mujahideen don't attack the conservative, working class people because that would likely provoke a very real, very violent backlash, even a pogrom, they attack instead the Liberal, the intellectual and the cosmopolitan. If those bombs had gone off at a suburban soccer match in Paris or in a bar in the Banlieus there would be Mosques in flames and running battles in the streets between French and Muslim youths.
Get it through your heads O' you compassionate Liberal minded people, it's you they want to kill and us they are wary of, it's your Gay rights, your Feminism, your hipster popular culture which enrages contempt in the Jihadi while our "islamophobia" does nothing but draw a line over which they (as yet) do not dare step.

Rubbish JayofMelbourne.

How on earth would those filthy terrorists know who the hell was in the cafes, concerts and other places they hit? I doubt these violent people ran in to check there were only non-Muslim, non-feminist, non-conservatives or equally mad white supremacists in all those French areas before they started shooting or bombing the places, do you?

I wouldn't be so smug if I was you, as I am almost certain these terrorists wouldn't be too keen on racist white supremacists and mad nationalists at all...

Suse,
You're wrong, read the ISIS statement on the attacks, it's exactly as I've said, do you think I don't do my research?
http://www.vox.com/2015/11/14/9734794/isis-claim-paris-statement

In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficent

Allah (ta'ala) said, They thought that their fortresses would protect them from Allah but Allah came upon them from where they had not expected, and He cast terror into their hearts so they destroyed their houses by their own hands and the hands of the believers. So take warning, O people of vision [Al-Hashr:2].

In a blessed battle whose causes of success were enabled by Allah, a group of believers from the soldiers of the Caliphate (may Allah strengthen and support it) set out targeting the capital of prostitution and vice, the lead carrier of the cross in Europe — Paris. This group of believers were youth who divorced the worldly life and advanced towards their enemy hoping to be killed for Allah's sake, doing so in support of His religion, His Prophet (blessing and peace be upon him), and His allies. They did so in spite of His enemies. Thus, they were truthful with Allah — we consider them so — and Allah granted victory upon their hands and cast terror into the hearts of the crusaders in their very own homeland.

Cont: And so eight brothers equipped with explosive belts and assault rifles attacked precisely chosen targets in the center of the capital of France. These targets included the Stade de France stadium during a soccer match — between the teams of Germany and France, both of which are crusader nations — attended by the imbecile of France (Francois Hollande). The targets included the Bataclan theatre for exhibitions, where hundreds of pagans gathered for a concert of prostitution and vice. There were also simultaneous attacks on other targets in the tenth, eleventh, and eighteenth districts, and elsewhere. Paris was thereby shaken beneath the crusaders' feet, who were constricted by its streets. The result of the attacks was the deaths of no less than two hundred crusaders and the wounding of even more. All praise, grace, and favor belong to Allah.

Allah blessed our brothers and granted them what they desired. They detonated their explosive belts in the masses of the disbelievers after finishing all their ammunition. We ask Allah to accept them amongst the martyrs and to allow us to follow them.

Let France and all nations following its path know that they will continue to be at the top of the target list for the Islamic State and that the scent of death will not leave their nostrils as long as they partake in the crusader campaign, as long as they dare to curse our Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him), and as long as they boast about their war against Islam in France and their strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate with their jets, which were of no avail to them in the filthy streets and alleys of Paris. Indeed, this is just the beginning. It is also a warning for any who wish to take heed.

Allah is the greatest.

(And to Allah belongs all honor, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites do not know) [Al-Munafiqun: 8].

JoM, I didn't know you were Muslim?
Do all the other good Ol' boys know?

Multiculturalism can take (at least) two forms: one focussing on diversity, and another focussing on inclusion. Each has very different implications for the notion of an Australian community

One way for governments to go is to welcome people from overseas, fund their particular 'community' organisations, schools and media, each in its own cocoon, as part of a diverse and extremely colourful and quaint collection of 'communities'.

A more difficult task faces a government which is focussing on an inclusive community built around what are broadly upheld as Australian values - basically, the values of the Enlightenment, of equality and the rule of law, in the interests of a common, open, multi-faith community, built on broadly-shared values. If a government chooses this path, it would be obliged to constantly promote the imperatives of commonalities, common rights and responsibilities, and build around that adherence to those Australian values, and forswear divergent values which do not fit easily into that common framework.

There is an enormous amount of play in the concept of 'Australian': one can adhere to Greek or Filipina or Chilean or Dinka traditions, culture and social relationships simultaneously with adhering to Australian values. But if we are to remain one, every-blossoming, ever-enriching Australian 'community', then major divergences in values would need to be tempered to come broadly into line with those of the general community.

If we are to have an inclusive community, then that inclusion must be anchored around the values that we more or less share in common. This doesn't mean that we have to live in each pockets or constantly be looking over each other's shoulder, but every Australian, from no matter what background, is equally entitled to the protection of the law on the one hand, and to social opportunity on the other.

Joe
www.firstsources.info

Do you hear yourself Cherful?

You, according to you (!), are much better informed about Daesh's motive and those of its adherents than they are themselves. They, according to you, have deluded themselves about what their real motives are. Seriously? Wow I bet they wish they had someone like you on board to tell them what their real aims are.

I agree that most wars in most times of history in most parts of the world are fought over resources or for security - more the later than the former, but that's a different discussion. But that doesn't mean that all wars at all times are fought for that reason. You've fallen for the oldest syllogism in the book...

All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs, therefore my dog is a cat.
All wars are fought for territory. This is a war, therefore its about territory.
I doubt you'll see the logic but others might.

These people are zealots, thoroughly imbued with the teachings in their holy books. Their religion isn't a 'smokescreen', its the whole picture. They haven't deluded themselves into thinking their acts are holy. In their terms they are holy.

Its a common error by those unfamiliar with historical research to project your own thinking, motivations and prejudices onto others. Its clear that for most civilisations and movements, aggression is about gaining some material advantage. But if you do a little (well actually a lot) of reading about what Daesh says its aims are and what their holy texts tell them their aims should be, you'll soon learn that their thinking is very different to what you imagine.

Hi Mhaze,

Hmmmm .... I think you snookered yourself :)

All cats have four legs (as do most mammals). My dog has four legs. Therefore the best one can say is that it is a mammal.

"All wars are fought for territory. This is a war, therefore its about territory."

Well, yes: that is precisely how you have define a 'war', 'all wars', war as a form of conflict which is invariably a fight for territory: 'all' wars. The implication is that, if it is not a fight for territory, then it is not a war.

Anyway, for those interested in a philosophical critique of fundamentalism, and the weak support for Enlightenment values in Europe, try this article by Pascal Bruckner:

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1146.html

in which he points out that: "Denouncing the excesses of the Enlightenment in the concepts that it forged means being true to its spirit."

Exactly !

Joe

Loudmouth (or Joe?),

You missed my point. I was parodying Cherful's thinking. He has stated earlier that this must be about territory because all wars are about territory. I was pointing out that the logic doesn't follow in the same way as the famous dog-is-a-cat syllogism doesn't follow.

Hi Mhaze,

Not really: it depends how you define war: if you declare that "all wars (A) are about territory (B)", and (C) is a war, then B follows from your first premise.

Your first syllogism breaks the Law of the Excluded Middle: If you re-phrased it as follows: all four-legged animals (B) are cats (A), my dog (C) has four legs (B), therefore it is a cat (A), that would be logical, but because your first premise is false (since not all four-legged animals are cats), of course the conclusion is false.

As it stands, if you had said: all cats (A) have four legs (B), all dogs (C) have four legs (B), therefore my dog (C) is a dog (C), no worries, the premises AND the conclusion are true, but you're not saying much.

Perhaps what you are getting at is that since, you may suggest, ISIS (A) is not fighting a war (not B), i.e. a conventional war, therefore its fight is not about territory (not C). Is that it ? Of course, the conclusion still doesn't follow from the premise.

Cheers,

Joe

mikk - "This is our fault as much as the terrorists. ... We are guilty."

I think it is fair to say that this kind of viewpoint is akin to an IMMUNODEFICIENCY DISEASE in our community.

I base this judgement on the fact that those who hold this viewpoint DO NOT extend the same rationale to the "white" disaffected elements of the community they tend to deem "racist".

The same logic should apply to ALL members of the community, national and global. If angry Non Muslims are somehow responsible for Moderate Muslims becoming Radical Muslims, why can't one rationalise the same logic for why the so-called Anglo 'racists' (e.g. Cronulla rioters) become who they are seen as in the media as angry and resentful? Why are the latter the 'racists' who need to act more responsibly but not the former? Are the former Moderate Muslims seen as child-like somehow and not capable of responsibly taking a different course of action than to be pushed into sypathising for Jihad by their apparent racist Anglo neighbours?

Who is the CAUSE and who is the EFFECT??

Loudmouth,

Huh?

I'm perfectly aware that the logic doesn't follow either for cats/dogs or for war. That's the point.

I don't understand why you don't understand so I can't help you.

Still its good to see that you've got the jargon down pat..." Law of the Excluded Middle". Wikipedia can be very useful at times, n'est pas?

Genius Bogan.
Yeah that "logic" is normally espoused by people who have little to no contact with Muslims or other minorities, we "racists" take Muslims seriously, we don't infantilise or idealise them and we see them as agents rather than helpless objects.
The "do gooders" want to speak FOR Muslims, we want to speak TO them, we want to negotiate a way out of this mess so we have no use for political correctness and if those negotiations require an end to liberalism, globalism and cosmopolitan values as the norm then that's the price which has to be paid.
The problems in Muslim lands need to be solved by Muslims and the diaspora in our countries need to make a choice, emigrate and fight to free your faith of corruption or stay home,stay neutral and stay silent.

FellowBogan,

I put this up earlier on another thread:

"In the light of the atrocities in the Sinai, Beirut and now Paris, we must support our fellow-Australian Muslims to root out the scum within their midst who may be supporting these sorts of low-life mongrels, or planning to copy-cat their activities.

"Not all Muslims wholeheartedly support terrorism: we all have to believe that. So in their efforts to expose and cast out anybody within their midst who supports such vile acts, the Muslim population of Australia needs the support of the non-Muslim community wherever possible.

"IF, IF these vile, gutless actions have indeed been carried out by Islamists, and IF, IF there are Muslims in Australia who support these murders of innocent people, then the Muslim population has an extra obligation to identify and expel such criminals, and for that reason, they need our support. IF, IF the Koran can be used to justify such criminal acts, then the Muslim population may need our sympathy as they disavow such interpretations."

A bit intemperate, you'd agree, but the gist of it is that, in the interests of inclusive multiculturalism and the aspiration that all Australians should make up one, inclusive, community, we all have a positive and supportive role to play. BUT, within that community, Muslim Australians have a special responsibility to root out fascism and terrorism within their sub-community.

After all, imagine some crackpot group of Australians in New Zealand, determined, no matter how, to terrorise and conquer New Zealand and bring it into a 'Greater Australia'. Wouldn't other Australians in New Zealand have a special responsibility to identify, expose and expel such expatriates in their midst, in order to protect New Zealand's inclusive-multicultural society ? And to persuade any of their compatriots who are thinking that way not to get involved with any forms of terrorism ?

Joe

Rather than wondering why these attacks happened I'm wondering why we didn't see it coming.

I knew SOMETHING was going to happen when Russia went into Syria and blocked western plans to remove Assad.

France was ripe for it.
They had intervened and commenced bombing in Syria against Islamic State. (We're also in this position)
So they were a potential target for an attack that could said to be a 'reprisal' for intervening in Syria.

The result of this attack will be increased support for action by EU member states as well as support for western intervention on the ground in Syria against IS.

Maybe even UN resolutions and NATO forces.

Syria is just the stepping stone in the greater plan to take out Iran so of course the US was never going to allow Assad to stay and they needed leverage against the Russian intervention which had stymied their plans.

The US has a split personality like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
It has one official position and operations what it tells the public and the world, and then it has its covert CIA run operations which probably support and help the Jihadi's against Assad.

If an attack happened here it would force our government to commit more to the war in Syria and therefore help bolster the US position in Syria
(we wouldn't put our tail between our legs and run away, it would demand a increased response)
- So, sadly we're ripe for it too.

I’m surprised by the level of justification being offered by the apologists for ISIS. That Suze has to dig to the depths of the brutality of Hitler and Stalin nearly 4 generations ago is no justification for the level of Islamic medieval barbarity on display today, but rather a measure of the revulsion that should be reserved for these savages.

What is also not in doubt is:
That this barbarism in Paris is the result of Islamic fundamentalists
That this savagery is targeted specifically at civilians that are not Muslim (or in Lebanon not Sunni),
That some of these thugs entered the EU as “refugees”, and the rest are home grown,
That Islamic leaders take no responsibility whatsoever.

Already, Angela Merkel’s open door policy is beginning to crumble as Poland is now refusing to take the 160 000 refugee quota it had been given, and other countries are likely to follow suit. I guess that the boat turn back policy is looking a much better option now.

Cherful is right when he says that it is all about territory.
The Koran calls on moslems to spread Islam over the whole world.
Nothing very remarkable about that, I think all religions have that aim.

What is different is that the Koran calls for the spread of Islam to
be done by the sword if the infidels will not submit to Islam.
That program started in Mohammad's lifetime in the attacks on nearby
towns in Arabia.
It then spread to all of Mesopotamia including Judea.
As the Jews were not in Judea in numbers, the Romans having driven
them out in the first century.

There is another part of the Koran that states that an area occupied
by moslems always remains moslem land. This is at the root of the
claim by Arabs in Palestine that the Israelis are occupiers.
In fact it is the Arabs who are the occupiers.
The Crusades were an attempt to restore Christianity and the Jews
to Jerusalem.

Likewise the Arabs now claim that Paris is moslem land because moslems live there.

I just wonder how long before Lakemba and Bankstown receives a demand for Sharia Law.
Now looking at what is happening in France with so many no go areas
in Paris & France generally can you see where they are going ?

We have a choice, we can submit to Islam or we face continuing attacks
by terrorists. The choice really is that stark.
This generation might hammer them down but like other generations
before us, it will emerge again.
Just like the Austrians and the Poles defeated the moslems at the
gates of Vienna, we may have to fight them at the gates of Paris.

As there is no possibility of an accommodation or the defeat of Islam
short of the Koran being rewritten, then the long time solution must
be the total isolation of the Middle East and the deportation of all Moslems to the Middle East.
If that is unacceptable, then nuclear war is the last option.

Interesting article in today's Australian by Neil Ferguson.
He suggests that what Europe is experiencing is the same Decline & Fall
as the Decline & Fall of Rome.

He compares the Vandals and German Tribes that sacked Rome with the
Islamists and with the economic decline of Rome.
Europe today is entering the End of Growth period caused by
diminishing returns which Joesph Trainter described in his book The Collapse of Complex Societies.

Rome was like Europe suffering from a declining population and a loss
of Military will and power.

Now that the democratic Kurdish forces have driven the fascists out of Sinjar, they are discovering mass graves of women too old to sell in the sex-slave markets.

No doubt Grateful and his useful idiot companions on the pseudo-left would find some way to weasel out of this, but possibly the Islamo-fascists could find something in the Koran to justify murdering middle-aged women - after all, to coin a phrase, even the Devil can cite scripture for his purpose.

As an atheist, of course I don't believe in any gods, but I am beginning to believe in the existence of Devils. And in their little helpers in our midst.

Come to think of it, they've been quiet lately. But they'll think of something.

And mikk, there have been splits and factions and extremists within Islam since Omar and Hussein - there have been rival 'caliphates', rival centres, rival emirates, upsurges in extreme 'devoutness' from the very beginning. When the British got to northern Nigeria in the late 19th century, they found themselves in the middle of violent schisms raging across the Sahel. And of course, there was the Mahdi in the Sudan. In Libya, the Italians were always battling a sect which believed the next Messiah would be born of a man, so they all went around in baggy trousers (well, you never know). Extremist groups have devastated parts of Indonesia, especially Aceh, over the past century. Etc. etc. It's as if Islam has always been ripe, over-ripe, for all manner of crackpot extremists. So be careful of your new f&%*-buddies.

Joe

Today Muslims are living in fear across the Islamic world.
Under Ataturk, Turkish women were liberated from a Face and head covered future.
Today even the President and PM of Turkey have forced their wives to cover their heads.
Arab Petrocash has changed the face of the Islamic world.
Under Colonial Rule Malaysia Brunei and Indonesian women did not have to have head covering.
Today the macho Muslims have taken control and the fairer sex are living in fear.
Welcome to the Macho world/

I note the Grand Mufti In Australia has not angrily condemned the perpetrators of murder in France in the name of Allah. He heads 500,000 followers in Australia. He is hiding his real feelings about the Islamic caliphate for the Middle East. Muslims are cowards as they do not face soldiers with guns they murder unarmed innocents instead.

Russia absolutely smashes ISIS in Syria and France gets attacked? The USA and Israel funded ISIS and Al Qaeda.

Escape the lies from our presstitute media on MSM. Dr Paul Craig Roberts is the ex -assistant secretary to the US Treasury.
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/11/16/washington-refines-its-false-flag-operations-paul-craig-roberts/

Dear Armchaircritic,

Indeed. France was the first country to commence bombing ISIS after the US and have been at it a year. Other countries include Turkey who suffer 90 dead in a bombing last month and Russia who lost over 200 in an aircraft bombing. Australia is obviously on the list and it would be foolish to think otherwise.

One can only imagine the impotent rage of being continuously being bombed from the air and unable to strike back militarily. Therein lies the attraction for attacking a soft target.

As mentioned in another thread I think we have little choice but to put soldiers on the ground against ISIS. It would give them a retaliatory target and further it would hasten their demise.

But to just keep on waging this war from the air puts Australian civilian lives at greater risk.

The second option is to bow out. This is being contemplated by the new government in Canada but unlikely to happen here as Australia has too much invested in its relationship with the US.

Personally, I've been on the side of Assad right since the start.
Its not that I necessarily support Assad himself or his government, Its just that I was aware of US neocons plans for M/E nations and I oppose that plan and of covertly destabilizing other nations.

It's wrong and it only creates more problems.

I support the Russian intervention in Syria.

The situation the world is in is complicated.

As for wars, I don't really think any nation should involve themselves in war unless they themselves have been attacked on their own soil. Therefore don't go to war unless its in absolute defense of your own nations territory.

I guess its reasonable to help an ally with a foreign entanglement if its reasonable to think your own national security would be placed at risk if your allies nation is placed at risk also.

And I guess our security is at risk if the US is at risk.

The US is at risk because its losing global hegemony.
It is covertly destabilizing nations to support the US dollar and the petrodollar.

So the US is most certainly the 'bad side' not the good.
They are taking us towards another world war that they may not win this time.

What do we do?

I hope Russia makes the decision to commit more troops into Syria before the US starts a full scale war against IS, expected anytime.

http://mothership.sg/2015/11/singaporeans-response-to-isis-attacks-goes-viral-internationally/

"I want to thank well-meaning non-Muslims who, in the wake of these attacks, have emphasised that they have been carried out by a small, twisted minority. A terrorist’s goal is to sow hatred and discord, and by not giving in, you are defeating their plans.

But I want to say that as a Muslim, I wish that we weren’t so quick to emphasise that this has nothing to do with us. While I personally have never killed anyone and none of my friends and family have ever resorted to violence, radicalism has everything to do with Islam. And the failure to address that out of a well-intentioned commitment to tolerance is making the problem worse."

ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and it is an Islamic problem. Let me say it again to be perfectly clear. ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and they are a cancer at the heart of Islam. And the problem will not go away until Muslims confront that.

There are no Christians in ISIS. There are no Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Taoists, Houngans, Catholics, Wiccans, Hindus or even Scientologists in ISIS. ISIS is a Muslim organisation and they kill in the name of Islam.

So don’t say that ISIS aren’t ‘true Muslims’ or that they are ‘not really Muslims’. The so-called ‘Caliph’ Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic studies.

So if you feel that Muslims are being oppressed or killed in Muslim countries, I expect you to also be just as outraged by ISIS. Because they have killed more Muslims in Iraq, Syria and Jordan than the entire US army. They have done more damage to the name and reputation of Islam than any Western nation. ISIS is Islam’s biggest enemy, not the US, not Israel or France or Germany or the Russians."

Armchair wrote,

"As for wars, I don't really think any nation should involve themselves in war unless they themselves have been attacked on their own soil."

AND

"I support the Russian intervention in Syria."

Pretty much says it all. I think we can assume Armchair's real premise is that "I don't really think any nation [named the USA] should involve themselves in war".

Just one question...
The US basically stayed out of the ISIL issue (at least militarily) up until the Yazidi crisis arose where an entire culture was slated to be wiped out by having the men killed and the women raped, enslaved, on-sold, force-converted and impregnated. (10 yr old girls cost a mere $124 and are, by the grace of Allah, of an age to be used).

So, was the West wrong to use military force to try to save these people?

Shadow Minister, I have mentioned this link in another thread but think it relevant to mention here... if you find yourself with a spare 40 mins I believe you might find this interview, which I chanced upon, an interesting, backgrounding set of historical and political issues encompassing 'ways-forward-observations' in an ISIS infected world...

"Rise of ISIS & Collapse of a Culture with Philippe Assouline"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ6NiM-F6jI

Editor Of Iraqi Daily: The Arabs And Muslims Must Acknowledge Their Direct Responsibility For The Terror Sweeping The World

"We cannot shake off our responsibility for the new and terrible terror attack that recently struck Paris, the French capital. We, the Arabs and Muslims, cannot renounce our direct role and our close connection to the terror attacks that have been flooding all the countries of the world, including our own countries, for two decades or more.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8860.htm

I must admit that I am disappointed by the spineless posters who seem to think the only reason that ISIS attacked any country is because they are being attacked, with the hopeful opinion that if we leave them to murder others, that they will leave us alone.

These barbarians have shown that they are perfectly prepared to attack, murder and enslave anyone that comes across their path.

ISIS's most effective recruiting tool is the fact that it controls a large area and population, if this can be taken away from them along with the income stream it provides, ISIS will fade away to yet another group of whack jobs.

Jay of Bleak City,
That link you put up was interesting not because
it said what probably many moslems believe but because of the insight
it gave to what is taught in schools, universities & mosques.

Hi SM,

I suspect that, once IS is destroyed in Syria and Iraq, other versions will spring up elsewhere in the Muslim world, and that that is going to keep happening for decades yet. Alrready this year, according to an article in today's Austtalian, Boko Haram has killed more innocent people than IS, at least officially - we'll see when the dust settles over Syria and Iraq, if ever.

The problem is that Islam can be used, or at least bits of its book can, to justify the most vile crimes, and as long as clerics like the grand mufti issue ambiguous statements, new recruits for anti-West, pro-fascist and ardently Islamist groups like IS, will continually be generated out of the Muslim population. Islamism is a logical out-growth from standard Islam, a reaction to the West at the same time as its adherents take advantage of the benefits of the West, its technology for instance.

I think we are in for a very long haul, a struggle between different value systems, cultures, ideologies, between the supposed values of a very distant and primitive past and those of very uncertain future. Utopians of all sorts, including the pseudo-left in the West, hanker for certainties, so they're willing to trade, hoping theirs will be the last heads to roll.

Perhaps it's not too grandiose to suggest that IS and its related fascist groups are forcing the entire world, seven billion of us, to re-assess our values, to make explicit what we, each and every one of us, believe in and stand for.

Yes, it's going to be a very, very long struggle - sometimes war, sometimes passionate discussion and analysis, back and forth, until either the values of human rights and freedoms prevail, or the reactionary certainties of a dead past prevail. Nothing is inevitable. It's going to be up to all of us.

Joe

Joe, I think you have nutshelled it effectively.
I agree when it is hammered down it will go quiet but later will be
reestablished and make a nuisance of itself again.
It has been like this for 1400 years.

In our time there has been a lot of money available from sources in
Saudi Arabia & groups in other moslim countries. These sources get
their funds directly or indirectly from oil.
Once that source dries up they will revert to Mohomadd's example and
raid banks. They did that when they first got established, in that they
took the funds from the banks in Mosul and Raqqe.
Now I doubt if the banks in those cities carry any or very little cash.
They are existing on oil sales but the US is trying to stop those
transactions. Eventually they will run out of money.

Currently Saidi Arabia is on an austerity drive due to the low price.
Saudi needs US$90 to break even on their national budget.
The lack of funds may reduce their interest in the outside world
while they blame everyone else in the ME.

The real financial difficulty in the ME may not occur for 10 years.
If I am correct in that time scale it means they will be operating
in the current mode for some time yet, unless hammered down.

The Islamic model cannot produce a viable society as can be seen in
the mess into which the Middle east is currently descending.
Oil income has produced a surge in an unsupportable population.
Hence the surge in immigrants to Europe.

Until the ideas and the religion of Islam is shown to be false and intellectually foolish, radical Islam will exist. Close Mosques and Islamic schools unless They are open to public scrutiny, and all teaching be in English, and all teachers be university trained in Australia.

'Until the ideas and the religion of Islam is shown to be false and intellectually foolish, radical Islam will exist.'

True Josephus but no more so than secular humanisn totally devoid of rationality and morals.

Couldn't agree more Josephus, but it takes better equipped politicians
than we now have. Even Abbott pussyfooted around the problem, yet
look where it got him.

Everyone, except a female relative, that I have spoken to wants a very
much more hardline program against the moslem problem.
There is real anger out there.
Our local polly held a meeting for voters a few days ago and he got the
message, but it was all the party line of course and glazed over look.

He also pushed the "Growth growth growth" line and actually said that
you can have growth without using more energy !
What a dill ! and I might be forced to vote for him because the
alternative is worse !!

Reading today we now have 145 Muslims in the Army and a radical Imam Chaplain in the Australian Army being paid $71,000 p/a by the Australian taxpayers. We have sold out Australia to Islam as their loyalties is to Allah and his sharia laws first above our values of freedom. They owe no loyalty to Australia and its people.

Here is something I don't understand, how does anyone live in this country for 25 years and still not speak English? The Grand Mufti is insulting all of us by refusing to speak English. This guy isn't so old he was incapable of learning the language of the country he chose to migrate into, so what is he playing at? How has he supported himself the past 25 years?

Something else is confusing me... if we have dozens or 100s of people the police and secret service are 'watching' because they are acting suspiciously like terrorists, why are they just watching? The time has come to round them up, take them out of society and provide them a one way ticket to the Middle East.

Forget their civil rights, if they want participate in or fund radicalisation or send money to terrorists, get the hell out, even if they were born here. If they feel their roots and heart belongs to another country, group and way of life then get the hell out!

We should have to wait for them to kill someone if we suspect that's what they are planning.

Why haven't we seen a protest organised by the Muslim community with a 1000+ supporters marching in the streets to show they are against ISIS?

Con Hippy, I think the problem is that they are in contact with
others that have a similar contact patten and give indications that
they "might" be of the terrorist bent. Unless they do something like
send money to the ME, there is nothing to prove in court.
Also we might well be learning much by just watching.

I understand where you stand on this.
I do think that the phrase "moderate moslem" is past its use by date.
If they are a moslem then they must adhere to the sharia law and if
the opportunity comes about they must, and will accept it.

If they do not they are not a moslem and should drop all pretense.

I think I will join the Australian Liberty Alliance Party.
Seems a very level headed group. Run by family orientated people,
the two women involved are wives & mothers and the men are employed
or are self employed. They say they do not want to be a single issue
party. Their major policy is for a 10 year moratorium on Islamic
immigration. So I will watch and see how it goes, but it does look
promising.