Under the guise of Kids Help line which is supposed to give assistance to those being bullied at school we have it promoting gender reassignment to those teens not happy with their gender. As a society we outlaw F.G.M but promote gender reassignment which is a radical surgical procedure with physical and emotional complications that cannot be reversed.

http://www.kidshelpline.com.au/teens/get-info/hot-topics/sexuality-and-identity.php

I've read the link and not found any promotion of gendernreassignment, just a paragraph describing its existance. Have I missed something. "Sexual Identity is not the same as identifying as a different gender or feeling like you're in the 'wrong body'.

'Working it out' for some people may be about determining which gender they are. Sometimes people are born feeling they are in the 'wrong body' and may experience themselves to be the opposite sex to their anatomy. Someone born with a female body may feel 'male' or with a male body may feel 'female'. Sometimes people decide to make physical changes to their body through surgery and hormone treatments so that their body aligns with who they are. This is called 'transitioning'. Being transgender/transsexual is not the same as being gay or lesbian. Transgender people can also identify as being heterosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual. Being transgender is also different to being intersex." Elsewhee in the page it encourages people to take their time and seek help.

My overall impression was of encouragement not to to rush into identifying with a particular label of sexuality based on teenage confusion and experimentation.

R0bert

Gender dysphoria is a real condition but the big teaching hospitals in the U.S have now scrapped their gender reassignment clinics and refer such patients to psychiatrists for treatment.
Gender dysphoria needs to be seen in the same light as other OCD type behaviours and young people who suffer from this disorder need referrals for treatment by professionals, which is what Kids Help Line does.
Encouraging them to act on their delusions and undergo surgery and other treatments is setting them on a path which for the majority leads to further anguish and often suicide, which is why gender re-asignment is deemed un-ethical by many top line medical services.

Dear Josephus,

I read the link you referred to. It just informed people about the different categories and cautioned teenagers not to rush into anything. The website contained:

"Unfortunately there isn't a series of steps you can take or a test you can do to work out your sexuality. Some people work it out quickly while others take a lot longer to work through their feelings and find themselves. There is no rush. Feelings of uncertainty and confusion may be a normal ongoing part of being a teenager while discovering who you are. Sexuality can also be a fluid and changeable thing for some people and not so easy to categorise or label."

The above simply seems sensible advice. Please cite where the website promoted anything.

Whoever wrote and whoever approved its posting of that article for
students should be sacked.
The whole context is that same sex attitudes and activity are normal.

It is not! The simple proof is that such activity cannot result in
procreation. As to being born in the wrong body is nonsense and is
totally at conflict with the DNA.
The physical construction of our bodies is final proof.

No logical opinion to the contrary can possibly exist.

The whole homosexual arena is a fashion !
Indeed a very dangerous fashion.

"The whole homosexual arena is a fashion !"

Its a very long lasting fashion then. It's been in fashion for all of recoded history despite the sick reality that during most of that time it's been accompanied by massive social stigma, death penalties, bashings, torture etc.

It's a fashion that's common not just with humans but across the animal kingdom (as is different sex pair bonding so don't get too excited by the animal bit).

The context is more that sexuality is a tough issue for some made far worse by proponents of hatred. The context is that far too many kids (and adults) don't cope with the conflict between what they are experiencing and some social stigmas unfortunately still pushed by some sad minds and in parts of public discourse.

Sexual activity between adult heterosexual couples where one or both is infertile can't result in procreation either. Would you have those past child bearing years stigmatised for sexual activity that can't result in children?

Is it not enough to accept that sexual intimacy plays more than one role in human interaction, procreation just being one of them and for most of us the overwhelming majority of our sexual encounters will not result in a child.

R0bert

Surely you can't be serious Josephus and Bazz if you think the link you gave in any way promoted transgender lifestyles or gender reassignment surgery to kids?

Yes, it mentioned gay and transgender people, because, like it or not, they do live in our community, but just mentioning these people is not 'promotion' of their lives.
If that were the case, then wouldn't Josephus be 'promoting' the very lifestyle he hates, just by posting this thread?

I doubt anyone would willingly decide to be gay or transgender just for the fun of it, given the extreme hatred that ignorant people like you two go on about all the time.
Are we just going to have yet another homophobic thread from the usual subjects, just so they can spew their own brand of hatred all over this forum again?
Off you go then.....

Gawd Robert what a stupid comment, has anyone ever read anything so insane ?;
>
Sexual activity between adult heterosexual couples where one or both
is infertile can't result in procreation either. Would you have those
past child bearing years stigmatised for sexual activity that can't
result in children?<

You cannot deny Suzie that it has been promoted as fashionable.
Even the gay pride parade is part of that promotion.
Ask any advertising man or women if it is not effective advertising.
All the protestations will not change the facts and the logic

"Gender reassignment promoted by Education Department"

I cannot work out whether you are deliberately or inadvertently misguided, Josephus...

Kids Helpline is a service of BoysTown, a not-for-profit organization established by the De La Salle Brothers. So if you need to protest to the Vatican remember that Pope Francis is touring the USA at the moment and might be slow in catching up with any email complaints.

" As to being born in the wrong body is nonsense and is totally at conflict with the DNA. The physical construction of our bodies is final proof."

Bazz, try decoding these and get back to us about your 'logic':

46,XX DSD; 46,XY DSD; Ovotesticular DSD; 46,XX testicular DSD; 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis.

I can see both sides of the argument in the responses and want to put forward some of the difficult thoughts and questions and I truly hope it doesn't offend anyone.

Its hard for straight people to understand gay people.
A lot of straight people have never been gay before so we don't understand what or why gay people are gay.

So, from a straight persons point of view...

We read this article and it says...
Let me quote.
Many common cultural and religious beliefs and attitudes may promote an idea that 'normal' is about being heterosexual and being a 'female' or 'male' based on the body you are born in.

From a straight persons point of view...

Is it not reasonable to think that if a person is old enough to have sex and when they take their pants off there's a penis there, but they are confused about whether they are a boy or a girl that that person doesn't have sexuality issues they have mental issues?
Is that not a reasonable question or assumption? - from a straight person?

Is it not reasonable for a straight person to ask if a gay person is at war with their own DNA? Incongruence? Out of kilter?

Another thing the article said was 'Questioning: Hasn't identified with any labels as above. Some young people identify themselves as "questioning" because this takes the pressure off having to have a label.

Most of the blokes I know would agree that "If your questioning, you're gay."

I understand that they have to put the information out there to help people who do have these issues.

My problem is it just seems too easy these days to be gay.
That making it accepted so much promotes it, embraces it, celebrates it.
And don't forget these are confused kids.
If you're gay it might be helpful, but if you're actually straight it might confuse the adolescent more.

I don't see any need to discriminate against gay people, but I can't be forced to embrace and celebrate their way of life either.

Armchair critic I see your point, and in fact I really feel turned off by the thought of lesbian sex, because I was born heterosexual and nothing on this green earth could have made me swing to the other side, at any stage of my life.
How about you?

Why would ANYONE choose to be gay?
They have to face stigma and inequality all their lives from people like Constance and Bazz, who seem to think they actually CHOSE to feel attracted to people of their own sex.
Do you see what I mean?

On the other hand, people can be born gay, but choose not to live that life and force themselves into marriage with someone of the opposite sex, because it is just easier not to cause angst amongst their family, religion and heterosexual friends.
These people do a terrible injustice to their spouses though, because they are living a life based on lies, and don't feel attracted to their spouses.
Is that fair, on either of them?

Thus, we need to support young people who think they may be gay, because it usually means they are gay. Otherwise many people will live a dreadful life of lies, leading to increased substance abuse and suicides.

The religious fundos like Father Joe believe ignorance is the way. To these zealots sexuality is a taboo subject for all, and particularly for children, with any discussion strictly off limits. Given the creationist nonsense these people peddle, can one expect anything less. The claim that the web site 'Kids Helpline' is promoting gender reassignment shows just how far some religious, with their homophobic paranoia, are detached from the reality of the real world. The religious bigots have always been the chief persecutors of those they perceive as different, including homosexuals.

The education department ought to be teaching teenagers good maintenance of their bodies, to be contented with their body they have not be confused about their gender. Most teenagers do have identity issues.

I can remember at 16 dreaming I was giving birth. But that never gave me the idea I was actually in a female body. Homosexual males are males not women in a male body, and it should not be suggested they need sexual readjustment to become women.

Almost half the teenager girls if they were happy with their body would say- NO! Having seen the emotional and eating disorder effects of teenage girls being bullied about their bodies; e.g. for not developing breasts; these girls do not need to be suggested they have the wrong body.

Josephus, perhaps you should have actually read the page at the link you provided. Others have pointed out already it's not the education department. You appear to be in agreement with the author of the article "Homosexual males are males not women in a male body, and it should not be suggested they need sexual readjustment to become women."

For the part that seems most relevant to your concerns

"Sexual Identity is not the same as identifying as a different gender or feeling like you're in the 'wrong body'.

'Working it out' for some people may be about determining which gender they are. Sometimes people are born feeling they are in the 'wrong body' and may experience themselves to be the opposite sex to their anatomy. Someone born with a female body may feel 'male' or with a male body may feel 'female'. Sometimes people decide to make physical changes to their body through surgery and hormone treatments so that their body aligns with who they are. This is called 'transitioning'. Being transgender/transsexual is not the same as being gay or lesbian. Transgender people can also identify as being heterosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual. Being transgender is also different to being intersex."

R0bert

For those that do not believe the site is Govt funded and in part of an anti-bully programme for schools, see.

http://www.kidshelpline.com.au/teens/get-info/school-assignments.php

As WmTrevor has already pointed out, Kids Helpline is a service of the not-for-profit organisation BoysTown. You can see a breakdown of their funding here:

http://www.boystown.com.au/about/funded.php

Most of their funds come from their 'Art Unions' with only 12% coming from the Government. BoysTown are a national organisation, and not beholden to the Education Department of any State or Territory.

Bazz, are you on something? The idea that sex for fun and not babies is abnormal is frigging hilarious. Good luck selling that one, mate. I don't know a man on this Earth that would refuse a blowjob just because you think they're abnormal.

If someone thought they were a dog would you graft a tail on them and tell them to bark ?

A silly comment ? Of course it is ! Just as silly as telling someone
to believe they are the other sex and then send them to a surgeon.

No, any responsible sane person would have their DNA checked, because
there are people with deformations, but we are talking of "normal"
people, then send them to a psychiatrist.

Bazz who is telling anyone they are the wrong sex?
Isn't it the people who feel they are the wrong sex that are dealing with these issues?

It isn't an easy thing to do you know, to tell someone else you feel you were born in the wrong body. I would imagine you would have to be pretty sure you felt this way before you would consider opening yourself up to ridicule and possible rejection by people like yourself.
What difference does it make to you or your life anyway, unless it is someone you know well?

Father Joe, it seems you can't take a trick on this one, claiming a website is promoting something it is clearly not, then claiming the organisation behind that web site is government funded when clearly it is not. If the site was government funded so what, it is providing a valuable public service.

When it comes to a total waste of public money, there is none bigger waste than the $243.8 million committed by the Federal government over four years to the ridiculous 'National School Chaplaincy Programme'. Paying religious zealots vast sums of money to enter schools and promote bigoted nonsense with their superstious misinformation to children is a blight on society! And that's to put it mildly.

I think the website is great. It tells teenagers that whatever they feel they are not the only one in the world that feels that way. I can remember being a teenager and wondering if there was something wrong with me when I started to have wet dreams, but there was nobody I could talk to. Later my mother told me she was aware of it. I was angry at her because she could have set me straight and didn't do it. I am heterosexual, but I imagine I would have been much more disturbed if I had doubts abour my sexual nature in addition to the doubts about what was happening to my body.

continued

continued

As a teenager I often disliked my parents and felt very guilty about disliking my parents. Then I read a book which liberated me from my guilt. The protagonist, Ernest Pontifex, lived in the nineteenth century, had far worse parents than mine and hated them far more than I hated mine. He was depicted as a very decent man who broke off contact with his stifling parents. The book was The Way of All Flesh by Samuel Butler.

I read the book again this year and, to my surprise, still enjoyed it. One excerpt from the book:

"To me it seems that youth is like spring, an overpraised season--delightful if it happen to be a favoured one, but in practice very rarely favoured and more remarkable, as a general rule, for biting east winds than genial breezes. Autumn is the mellower season, and what we lose in flowers we more than gain in fruits. Fontenelle at the age of ninety, being asked what was the happiest time of his life, said he did not know that he had ever been much happier than he then was, but that perhaps his best years had been those when he was between fifty-five and seventy-five, and Dr Johnson placed the pleasures of old age far higher than those of youth. True, in old age we live under the shadow of Death, which, like a sword of Damocles, may descend at any moment, but we have so long found life to be an affair of being rather frightened than hurt that we have become like the people who live under Vesuvius, and chance it without much misgiving."

The website can do for teenagers who are in doubt about their sexuality what "The Way of All Flesh" did for me.

I think Bazz's voice of dissent is at least somewhat valid.
They do eventually go too far with these things you know so its not really wrong to hold an alarmist position.

Lets take a look at whats going on in America.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/08/oregon-offers-minors-taxpayer-funded-sex-change-sans-parental-consent/

http://www.infowars.com/state-using-taxpayer-funds-to-implant-10-year-olds-with-birth-control/

Ive got questions to the commenters that think this is all ok.

Do you guys have a red line, or as attitudes change, will you keep moving the goalposts?

At what point do you think it's NOT OK for a child/adolescent to have this info given to them? And without parental consent?

What age is it ok for a stranger to sit down and discuss sex-change therapy, gender identity issues and birth control with your child, without your consent?

Tony Lavis said;
Bazz, are you on something? The idea that sex for fun and not babies
is abnormal is frigging hilarious. Good luck selling that one, mate.

Where did I say anything like that ?
Just do not make up stories and attach them to me, it is a very
objectionable practice. I await an apology.

'Sexuality and Identity' is only one page on what is a very good website for kids. Easy to read site where information is geared to kids needs, nothing like that was available in my day. My partners 9 year old granddaughter has recently experienced bullying at school, mainly from one other girl, and a couple of the boys joined in. Seems they don't like her black skin, part Cook Islander and part Maori who likes the surf and sun, so she is well colored at times. Her mum spoke to her teacher about it, and hopefully it will stop. I'll text her with that website and maybe she will find it helpful.

//Where did I say anything like that ?
Just do not make up stories and attach them to me//

Well then it appears more than one person is using the your account. You might like to set up a new one if your current one has been compromised.

On Monday 28th September somebody - apparently not you - asserted that sexual acts which cannot produce issue are abnormal:

//The simple proof is that such activity cannot result in
procreation.//

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=7013#214657

The alimentary passage is a completely different anatomical system to the reproductive system. Oral sex cannot possibly result in procreation, so by the reckoning of whoever it was that hijacked your account yesterday oral sex is abnormal. Of course, whoever hijacked your account yesterday is clearly barking mad, so nobody is going to pay any attention to their rantings and ravings anyway.

Sorry I mistook you for your account hijacker. You really should get that sorted out though - whoever is doing it has said some spectacularly foolish things which then reflect badly on you.

The "kids help line" is promoted in schools as an anti-bully programme. "Boystown" put the programme together which the schools have adopted. I worked for 12 years for a post graduate science professor Alexander Boden who wrote many science books for schools and universities. He was not part of the Education Department but they adopted his text. Similarly with "Kids help line".

"Do you guys have a red line, or as attitudes change, will you keep moving the goalposts?"

Anything to do with genetic and medical sciences, social and legal issues will see goalposts moving, Armchair Critic. Sometimes I suspect the goalposts are moving themselves.

But the parental consent question is valid and as vexed as it has been throughout history.

For example, in the Oregon link you referenced the age of medical consent is 15. So, of the "56 minors [who] have received assessments or therapy" the 27 who were 15-17 did not necessarily require parental consent although the report gives no information as to whether it was obtained or not. Nor do we know whether the 17 people who received hormone or other drug treatment included any from the cohort below 15, but even if this were so parental consent was required.

Of the 29 minors receiving assessments or therapy which required parental consent (<15) I hope it was of benefit to both the patient and the parents.

"What age is it ok for a stranger to sit down and discuss sex-change therapy, gender identity issues and birth control with your child, without your consent?"

Probably a meaningless question in an age when we have the smartphone equivalent of kids gossiping behind the shelter sheds... except they can do it in real-time, high definition colour and with people and sites anywhere reached by the interwebiverse.

Oh, and they are cluey enough to know how to erase phone browsing histories.

I'm trying hard to follow your thoughts in starting this thread Josephus... So are you objecting to anti-bullying programs in Education Department schools or to ones that don't encourage bullying kids perceived to have gender identity problems?

Which ignores that much of the problem for them in schools is they are bullied.

Just as some kids might be unreasonably bullied because they are so confused about their paternity they think they have a heavenly father... which is wrong, of course.

The bullying that is, although...?

Where does it say in the website put up that anyone is going to sit your child down and explain transgender sex reassignment surgery?
I think they just want to try and stop the bullying of kids who are already well aware they are different from others .
Does anyone have a problem with that?

As I have said before, I doubt that the mere mention of the words transgender or homosexual will encourage anyone to take up that identity unless they were already born that way.

Tony Lavis;
A typical cowards wriggle. You know exactly what was the meaning of
what I wrote, but you want to spin it just to be nasty.

Are you a politician, you would go far there.
I gather an apology would be too much of a climb down for you.

WmTrevor,
"Probably a meaningless question in an age when we have the smartphone equivalent of kids gossiping behind the shelter sheds... except they can do it in real-time, high definition colour and with people and sites anywhere reached by the interwebiverse."

A few years back I may have said exactly the same response as you have.

But this is what "they" (the people who provide funding for these agendas) want you to think.
They want you to think "Why bother?", so that they can influence your child and not you.

Kids Help Line may be privately funded, but what are the agendas of the entities who provide funding for it?
Its like politics, "we'll donate X amount to your organisation if you provide support for our agenda".

And what if the agenda of these other people is not education, but indoctrination?
They are pushing so much political correctness it scrambles kids minds and they cant think for themselves and are easily influenced.

Have you not heard they have banned the words 'boy' and 'girl' and the new politically correct terminology is 'purple penguins'?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2787443/Politically-correct-Nebraska-school-district-gets-gender-inclusive-tells-teachers-purple-penguins-preferable-phrase-girls-boys-referring-students.html

This stuff isn't just ridiculous, its an agenda.
They are trying to destroy the traditional family unit and make everyone dependent on the state.
Order Out Of Chaos - Doctrine of the New World Order

I know that kids can get any measure of porn and info from the web these days easily on their own.
The point is if another adult is going to influence the decisions of your child without your consent.

- If you are foolish enough to allow that to happen, more fool you.

That is why it was a most important question rather than an irrelevant one.

Suseonline,
I didn't say kidshelpline.com.au stated they would sit down with your child and discuss gender reassignment surgery without parental consent, you misunderstood me.

I inferred that was the direction this ideology was heading here in Australia based on what is happening in other countries.

Bazz you chose to use a statement which in pretty much any reading claims that sexual activity that cannot lead to procreation is not normal - unless it's actually just about the same sex part and the other is a dishonest excuse tacked on to try and pretend it's about something other than your prejudices. You would not do that would you?

"The whole context is that same sex attitudes and activity are normal.

It is not! The simple proof is that such activity cannot result in
procreation"

As I've already mentioned human sexual activity covers a much wider role than just procreation. Using my earlier example (if the thought of oral sex is a bit much for you) heterosexual people past childbearing age generally still engage in sexual activity for the physical pleasure and for the intimacy it brings (and maybe some other reasons - memory on this is fuzzy but I think ejaculation may have a link to reduced rates of testicular cancer).

The lack of the possibility of procreation does not make it unnatural. The thought of it may be distasteful to some but as long as no one is forcing them to take part it's not their problem.

It is certainly a problem if the squimish are able to get enough social taboos placed around things that they don't personally like (or in the case of some religious fundies that they crave but which are forbidden by their faith) to make difficult something thats between consenting adult humans (that was added for the religious fundies who seem to often be fixated on sex involving 9 years and or family pets) and a core part of their makeup.

R0bert

//Kids Help Line may be privately funded, but what are the agendas of the entities who provide funding for it?//

Did you miss my link that showed the breakdown of BoysTown's funding, Armchair Critic? Here it is again:

http://www.boystown.com.au/about/funded.php

And for those who don't believe in following links:

69% of their funding comes from their Art Unions (a fancy name for a fancy raffle. I think it is safe to assume that the agenda of the people who provide this portion of the funding - i.e. the people who buy their raffle tickets - is to win a nice house).
15% comes from fees for the various services they provide
12% comes from the Government. It is safe to assume these guys do have an agenda, but I'm not sure that it has anything to do with wacky conspiracy theories.
3% comes from corporate & philanthropic income. These guys might have various agendas. Or they might just think that BoysTown are a worthwhile charity.
1% comes from interest & other income.

//Have you not heard they have banned the words 'boy' and 'girl' and the new politically correct terminology is 'purple penguins'?//

"Purple penguins" was given as an example of a classroom name. At my second primary school the infants classes were named (after native Australian flora) rather than numbered - I didn't start there until year 2, so I was a Grevillea for that year. Maybe things would have been different if I'd been a Pansy. When I was in my junior years of high school the classes in my year were named after the seven colours of the rainbow: I started in 7 Red and stayed there until the end of year 10. I can't say that it did me any harm being red or a grevillea, and it certainly didn't cause me any gender confusion when teachers referred to us as 'Reds' rather than 'boys and girls'. It may, however, have made me more open to the concept of socialism (a joke)

If the Nebraskans want to call their (presumably primary school) classes 'purple penguins', 'green gorillas' or 'yellow yaks' I fail to see how that could be regarded by any remotely sane person as some sort of sinister plot to indoctrinate children. Were you high when you wrote that post?

//This stuff isn't just ridiculous, its an agenda.
They are trying to destroy the traditional family unit and make everyone dependent on the state.
Order Out Of Chaos - Doctrine of the New World Order//

Oh for heaven's sake...

Now who's being ridiculous, Armchair Cretin? Kids Helpline are a free telephone counselling service which assist kids who are dealing with a vast array of issues such as mental health, bullying, drugs, body image, etc. Do you really think that kids who ring up in search of counselling don't deserve to be given frank, honest information and support? Even when the issues they seek counselling about concern sexuality? Would it best just to let google give them the answers, instead of a trained counsellor?

Kids Helpline are not the footsoldiers of the Freemasons, hell-bent on tearing down the social order and sapping our precious bodily fluids. You are tilting at windmills. Again. Get off the drugs, dude.

I'm the biggest fanboi in the entire universe for the use of hyperbole, Armchair Critic... especially at funerals. But don't say "Have you not heard they have banned the words 'boy' and 'girl'..." and then link to a source that shows that they didn't.

It distracts from any valid argument you thought you were making.

Speaking only for myself, despite still receiving the BoysTown Art Union brochures though not having bought tickets for 15 years, my agenda in contributing to their funds was the hope of winning a 1-2 million dollar home or apartment in Melbourne, Sydney or the Sunshine Coast in Queensland.

"Kids Helpline are not the footsoldiers of the Freemasons, hell-bent on tearing down the social order and sapping our precious bodily fluids."

Agreed, Toni, not even "to sap and impurify"...

So I have looked to the motives of the Christian Brothers of the Lasallian tradition who lead the management and operation of BoysTown and Kids Helpline and found: Saint John Baptist de La Salle's "five core principles [are], in no particular order or priority: Concern for the Poor and Social Justice; Faith in the Presence of God; Quality Education; Respect for all Persons; Inclusive Community." Also, "a Lasallian is committed to the respect and reverence of others as valuable and important in the eyes of God. This leads to a view that the education of the individual is something supremely valuable and worthwhile for its own sake, not just for the convenience of society."

The atheist part of me thinks the God reference unnecessary, but I forgive them that.

"The point is if another adult is going to influence the decisions of your child without your consent."

This includes Advertising Agency Creative Directors and they've been influencing decisions without your consent, like forever!

"They are pushing so much political correctness it scrambles kids minds and they cant think for themselves and are easily influenced."

That is only true until kids realize their parents lied about Santa and after that point young people are increasingly skeptical - at least they are if you've been a good example as a parent (except for the lying bit).

If they even suspect you are untruthful about the "loving them unconditionally no matter what and that there is nothing you can't talk to me about" part of parenting, then you have created a problem. However, unintentionally.

Hi Toni Lavis,
No, I didn't the first time sorry so I apologise if I implied that maybe Boystown was receiving large donations from other entities.
(And for being slack and not checking the info you posted the first time)

Boystown only has 3% corporate funding so all you guys are right at least in that sense.

I'm not opposed to anything on the kidshelpline.com.au site.
I see there's a wealth of good information on the site and the sexuality and identity page is just a small part.

I may have acted a little over-critical in regards to kidshelpline.com.au but I do worry and have concerns about the way some of these agendas are promoted elsewhere.

My point in presented the topic was to expose ideas given to children is that if boys can only relate well to other boys and cannot relate to girls maybe they are homosexual, and similar with girls who cannot relate with boys they may be lesbian.

This is often the case in dominant one gender families, and they need socializing opportunities with the opposite gender. They do not need suggestions they might be homosexual. I have a close friend with a dominant elder brother and mother who he most of his life could only build close friendships with other men. In his thirties he befriended a whole family because he loved children, he never married but now in his late sixties has built a close friendship with a fine lady. All his life he had been classed as being a homosexual, and is saddened by the fact he never married and had his own children. Because peers classed him as homosexual.

Boyish girls, or effeminate boys they do not need suggestions they might consider a gender change if they are net fitting in with peers. Girls who are very masculine and not developing breasts they might consider a gender change. This can deny them happiness in later life as they have missed out on their own children.

josephus wrote:

"This can deny them happiness in later life as they have missed out on their own children."

Dear Josephus,

One can be quite happy in life without having children. A person who seeks happiness and lives through his or her children may have few inner resources. I have three children. They are away living their own lives. They are now independent of me, and that's great as far as I am concerned.

One of the great problems in the world today is the fact that population is continually increasing. No species including ours can increase indefinitely.

Happiness is not denied because one does not have children. There are many sources of happiness. Children can also be a great source of unhappiness. Hitler, Stalin and other monsters had mothers and fathers. Would they have been a source of happiness to their parents? Children are not an unmixed blessing.

Too many children are being born, and too many of those who are born are trouble.

If homosexuals and transexuals are less likely to have children we would be better off if we had a greater percentage of them in the population.

Dear Josephus,

The issues you complain about, such as encouraging gender-reassignment, are dwarfed by grave ideology of that web-site.

What can be more shocking and disturbing than their motto: "Sexuality is not about choosing, nor is it 'just a phase', it is about who you are"?

That statement tempts children to diminish their view of themselves to some physical function, denying their spiritual essence. No wonder those children who are under their influence have a higher tendency for suicide.

My advice to children with sexual problems is:
"Sexuality is not a big deal, it's just coming from your body and you are not your body. For your own happiness, ignore it and concentrate instead on your studies, spiritual development and other worthwhile projects: if you do, sexuality will fade away and stop bothering you any more in your life. Otherwise you would be chasing the wind and never be content."

Dear Yuyutsu,

We are our body. There is nothing of us outside of our body. Our mind and whatever feelings we have, even those of spirituality, come from our body. When we die and our body decays that is the end of us.

david f,
Which body are you talking about? as every cell of your body has been borrowed from the Earth by eating and drinking, and every cell of your body has been replaced in 21 years.

So what is You? You are the life that has inhabited that cell structure for as long as you have lived. You are your character, motives, creations, emotions, actions, thoughts and wisdom and the changes you have made in community. None of that is your body cells, your body cells have merely been the vehicle in which you have moved to achieve these things.

Children need to realize this and not be body focused, but character focused.

Dear David,

I feel sad for you for thinking that you are just a body - as well as for others who as a result of believing this to be the case, desperately believe that if they fail to recognise and fulfil that body's sexual desires then they fail altogether in fulfilling life's purpose.

Even if your statement: "Our mind and whatever feelings we have, even those of spirituality, come from our body" is true, then all it would mean is that once our body dies, we will no longer have a mind and feelings - OK, I don't deny that possibility but even in that case it still wouldn't stop us from being who we are, it would only make us devoid of mind and feelings.

We have been already through this logic:

1. We are our body.
2. When we die and our body decays that is the end of us

Therefore:

2A. When we die and our body's body decays that is the end of our body
2B. When our body dies and our body's body's body decays that is the end of our body's body
2C. When our body's body dies and our body's body's body's body decays that is the end of our body's body's body
...

Believing that one is one's body is appealing because it allows for the comfort of helpless irresponsibility, including in the area of sexuality.

Dear Josephus,

There is a continuity even though all the cells may be replaced. Our character like everything else about us comes from our body. Without our body we don't exist. Children like everybody else should know what is real. Our body is not only the vehicle. It is what we are.

God and all the other supernatural fantasies are only human inventions. Our physical being and the matter and energy around our physical being are the only reality.

david f,
I know some very distorted bodies who are wonderful characters, and some wonderful bodies who are very distorted characters. Our bodies do not produce who we are, our spirit produces who we are. Our spirit is formed from ideas presented to us throughout our learning. Ideas are learned are not physical though they are stored in the physical brain. What is transferred from one body to the other is spiritual - the real being of ourselves.

Dear Josephus,

If you want to believe in nonsense, you will believe in nonsense.

The real being of ourselves is our body - not some imaginary spirit. What we imagine is not what is real.

Tamum shud

I should recognize it is pointless conversing with a spiritually dead person. The living dead!

Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny.

Dear Tony,

Agreed - There's no mystical energy field that controls your destiny.
To the extent that destiny exists, you are its sole master.

<<I've seen a lot of strange stuff>>

Have you directly seen your own ears?

There is no way one could ever see God because one can only see that which stands apart from himself/herself.

What it takes to know God, is to know yourself.
What it takes to know yourself, is to cease looking outward for indirect sensual perception.

//There is no way one could ever see God because one can only see that which stands apart from himself/herself.

What it takes to know God, is to know yourself.
What it takes to know yourself, is to cease looking outward for indirect sensual perception.//

You're talking nonsense again and way off-topic as usual. Give it a rest. And watch Star Wars. It's good for you.

Toni Lavis,
Have you really seen life? You have seen the effects of the living, have you seen the substance of their motivation? You might have seen the chemical activity of the brain, but have you seen the reasoning? You have only seen the out-workings of a persons reasoning. No two persons reason the same for their actions based on their percepthe message.tions.

Do words or ideas have a physicality? They only have a physicality when applied in reality. One plus one equal two is an idea but only when one object is added to another are there two objects in reality. Have you seen the physicality of words floating in the air to the ear of another? Yes there is a vibration caused in the air, but only the mind can determine the message and the motivation of the speaker. Animals can hear the same message and their brain receive but do they understand? It takes more than chemistry and physics to communicate an idea, they are just the wires to transfer the idea.

And you're off topic ON YOUR OWN THREAD. Perhaps all the armchair philosophers who are going to solve the great materialism/spiritualism question once and for all could start a new thread and carry on with their navel gazing over there, and try to stay on topic on this thread?

The Bishop of Cloyne's theory of Immaterialism shall not interfere with the enjoyment derived from the concept of my pet unicorn!

"No two persons reason the same for their actions based on their perceptions."

Now... try to correlate that positional statement with the point of your thread topic which is to interfere with the actions of others for reasons sufficient to them and having no apparent consequence to you, Josephus.

Dear Tony,

Please allow me to explain why spirituality is most relevant to this topic:

The "Kids Help" group, encourage children to make a big deal of their gender and sexual-preferences, to the extent that they claim that "sexuality is about ... who you are".

This is the materialistic paradigm, based on the ridiculous assumption that we are bodies, hence our good lies in fulfilling the desires of those bodies. Those who follow this paradigm are destined for a life of frustration on the chase, constantly believing, all the way to their graves, that "I'm not sexually satisfied yet, but the failure of my last encounter was just an accident and the next sexual encounter will surely fulfil me".

Spirituality counters that approach and teaches that we are not bodies, hence we need not become slaves to their instinctual desires and suffer the ensuing misery.

Dear Yuyusu,

You wrote, "Spirituality counters that approach and teaches that we are not bodies, hence we need not become slaves to their instinctual desires and suffer the ensuing misery."

Kids don't need to be taught spirituality and other nonsense. We have instinctual desires. Responding to our instinctual desires either giving in to them or controlling them if it doesn't seem in our interests to give in to them is being a functioning human being.

Mankind has created myth that there is a spirit or soul which is apart from our bodies. There is absolutely no evidence to support such a contention. Spirituality is just another name for superstition and ignorance.

It seems that the Iran 'womens'soccer team is made up of men. Oh well like many lesbians its only for a period that they feel like men. The education department obviously thinks its fine.

Dear David,

There is no evidence that either giving in to our instinctual desires or controlling them is in our interests, because it is merely your subjective or arbitrarily axiomatic idea as if functioning as a human being is a good thing worth striving for, hence considered an "interest". The fact is that no values can be found in nature - use microscopes or telescopes or whatever other instrument you like: you won't find "values" anywhere, neither value-particles, value-waves nor value-forces, zilch! superstition!

For example, some people commonly say: "it is good for the vacuum-cleaner to be emptied once in a while", but it only reflects their preconceived idea that making the vacuum-cleaner continue to function for many years is good. The vacuum-cleaner doesn't care either way whether it is emptied or not. A child may claim: "the doll is tired, it wants to sleep", but that would only reflect the child's subjective preference - the doll doesn't care whether her eyes are opened or closed.

Hence, neither of us is rational, nor what we teach our children.

There is no vacuum in the minds of our children: if they receive no spiritual instruction, then they absorb and succumb to the prevailing superstition as if the desires of their bodies are important and ought to be fulfilled, including their sexual desires.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Nevertheless, spirituality is nonsense.

Dear David,

Nevertheless, materialism is harmful and even if you regard it as nonsense, you can find nothing better than spirituality to counter materialism.

Perhaps your understanding of spirituality is skewed, as expressed by you earlier: "Mankind has created myth that there is a spirit or soul which is apart from our bodies".

As far as I am concerned, if such a spirit/soul exists and can be evidenced, then it is material, not spiritual, perhaps a different kind of material, yet still material, so just to be clear, when I talk of spirituality I am not referring to any of that.

Spirituality for me is achieved by stripping materialism away, including the illusion of existence. It is an act of subtraction rather than of addition or the introduction of new elements, imaginary of otherwise. That I AM is undeniable. The spirit, or so-called "soul" is simply a name for what I truly am that remains once the illusion of the realness of matter (and/or whatever else is untrue) is subtracted. Being immaterial (which you prefer to call "nonsense"), it cannot be positively described, yet can you deny that you are?

Yuyutsu,
davidf, denies he a living person, as the life of the body is the soul. The reasoning and convictions of the mind is the spirit of the person. He denies both exist, so he is dead!

Charming as always Josephus.
One doesn't need to believe in invisible beings to be alive.

I find Davidf to be one of the more enlightened posters on this forum.
At least he has a mind of his own...

Dear Josephus,

"The life of the body is the soul." is a statement without meaning. People make such statements under the illusion that they have meaning. On the 31th of this month if I am still alive I will be 90. It is a long life. As I approach the end I am trying to discard what is unnecessary.

We are born with fists clenched to grab at life. We die with open hands letting go of what we have grabbed. I feel you have grabbed at a lot of things. I feel that some of the things you have grabbed at are statements that people have made that you think have meaning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor) tells of a doctor who tried to measure the soul. There has never been any reliable indication that the soul exists. The fact that many people believe the soul exists is no proof that such an entity exists. Many people used to believe in the existence of Zeus or other deities. Now they follow Buddha, Jesus, God or other objects of devotion. There is no more reason to believe in God than there was to believe in Zeus.

I have discarded all religious belief and have tried to discard all other unnecessary concepts. I am trying to discard a lot of material things - books I will never read, clothing I will never wear again etc.

We are slaves to imaginary concepts and material objects. While we are alive some material objects are necessary, but we can rid ourselves of those that are not necessary. We can rid ourselves of belief in unprovable propositions and imaginary entities. The more we get rid of the freer we are.

davidf,
Persons do NOT have a soul, their life is their soul. Your 90 years of living is your soul life. At death the life [soul] leaves the body, all reasoning and motivation and values no longer exist in the mind. You seen to be believing we identify an imaginary non-entity as life and spirit. All those things that identify your life is your soul and spirit, your character, motivations, imagination and creativity, actions, ideas and wisdom, not some being called spirit or soul. Though you do not recognize it, you are soul and spirit, operating in a material body.

Dear Josephus,

No matter how many times you repeat nonsense it remains nonsense.

Josephus, who told you that nonsense?
Did you read it in a book written by other men who say they 'know' this?
Who told them?
There has never been any spoken or written words re this sort of made-up stuff from any invisible being as far as I know....only from humans.

I have watched many people die, and let me tell you they just stop breathing and their heart stops, and then....nothing.

You can believe your nonsense I can observe my nonsense. The impact of your having lived lives on. No person is an Island, they have impacted this planet forever. Their life is all recorded in light years in the Universe at least.

"No person is an Island..."

A reference to John Donne, Josephus? Here is another:

“And who understands? Not me, because if I did I would forgive it all.”

Which could translate your objection to gender and sexual identity issues being from your ignorance or your lack of understanding?

Dear Josephus,

I think that David is doing a great job renouncing his material possessions - both physical and mental. It is a proper and commendable spiritual practice, especially for someone his age, indicating that he is not only alive, but also spiritually well.

I disagree with you that someone can be dead just because they fail to entertain this or another mental idea. Think for example of a baby that was abandoned and raised up by wolves: they have no language, no abstract concepts and certainly never heard of "spirit" or "soul", yet they are alive as any of us.

Perhaps as you say, the reasoning and convictions of the mind are part of the spirit of the person - I even tend to agree about it, though I am uncertain and unable to confirm it with my own direct experience, but if so, then the spirit too is material, a subtler material perhaps which may even survive the death of the gross body, yet it would still be material - thus not what I focus on and not what I was referring to in my discussion with David.

Dear Josephus,

You wrote, "The impact of your having lived lives on."

Does the impact of a particular ant or worm live on? Does the impact of a particular breeze on a particular blade of grass live on? Can such impacts be detected? Your statement sounds like a bit of human hubris to me? I expect my children and those who knew me when I was alive to remember me. However, as time passes I will be forgotten, and any impact I have made will disappear. Given enough time the names of Jesus and Shakespeare will be forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. 1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

We know now from the work of astrophysicists that the earth will not abide forever. Those who wrote the Bible did not know that, but they knew about vanity.

Your statement with which you started this string was, "Under the guise of Kids Help line which is supposed to give assistance to those being bullied at school we have it promoting gender reassignment to those teens not happy with their gender."

I looked up the reference and the help line did not 'promote gender reassignment'. Why did you make an untrue statement? Why does the help line bother you? Please examine yourself?

david f,
I have never seen or touched you as a material being; but I know you are alive because your spirit is expressed here. You would hope that your values would abound after you are dead in others thoughts.

If you read the original link it is suggesting if you believe you are born in the wrong body maybe consider gender realignment. Young vulnerable teens who are unsure of themselves do not need such suggestions.

Quote: "Working it out' for some people may be about determining which gender they are. Sometimes people are born feeling they are in the 'wrong body' and may experience themselves to be the opposite sex to their anatomy. Someone born with a female body may feel 'male' or with a male body may feel 'female'. Sometimes people decide to make physical changes to their body through surgery and hormone treatments so that their body aligns with who they are. This is called 'transitioning'

I have friends assisting male prostitutes in the Philippines to come out of that degrading industry and they assist them to find employment and self respect, to marry and build family.

Josephus, what does male prostitutes in the Phillipines have to do with gender reassignment?
There is nothing wrong with informing teenagers about all the different people, races, religions, sexualities and other differences in the wider world.
We don't want our teens believing in only a very narrow-minded existence.
We want them to be broad minded and well educated.

Surely, if you have not ever considered that you were born in the wrong body by the time you are in your teens, all the info on that condition in the world would not make anyone 'want' to go down that path?
That suggestion is simply ludicrous, and doesn't take into consideration that most teens are really quite bright these days and far less likely to be constrained by religious shackles.

Dear Josephus,

The paragraph you quoted is shocking: it suggests "...hormone treatments so that their body aligns with who they are", that is likely because the "Kids Helpline" people believe that they are a "mind".

When we are born, it is possible that OUR minds do not match with OUR bodies. In fact, it is quite common as some people would have liked to be taller or shorter, have a different skin-colour or a different-shaped nose, etc. etc.

The "Kids Helpline" group is calling on children to make a big deal over such mis-matches, at least when they occur in the area of sexuality, and that goes counter to the child's peace and spiritual well-being, promoting discontent. The correct approach is to explain to one's child that both their body and their mind are their temporary tools, that neither is "them" and so they need not fuss if the two don't match or let it distract them from a fulfilling life.

Sexuality comes from our body's genes. Those genes work in their own "interest" - not ours, affecting both body and mind in their "desperation" to multiply. Whatever they scream, it is best to ignore them!

@Suseonline Don't you mean "There is nothing wrong with informing teenagers about ...." sexuality and related abnormalities?

He would see faces in movies, on T.V., in magazines, and in books...
He thought that some of these faces might be right for him...
And through the years, by keeping an ideal facial structure fixed in his mind...
Or somewhere in the back of his mind...
That he might, by force of will, cause his face to approach those of his ideal...
The change would be very subtle...It might take ten years or so...
Gradually his face would change its' shape...
A more hooked nose...wider, thinner lips...beady eyes...a larger forehead.
He imagined that this was an ability he shared with most other people...
They had also molded their faced according to some ideal...
Maybe they imagined that their new face would better
Suit their personality...Or maybe they imagined that their
Personality would be forced to change to fit the new appearance...
This is why first impressions are often correct...
Although some people might have made mistakes...
They may have arrived at an appearance that bears no relationship to them...
They may have picked an ideal appearance based on some childish
Whim, or momentary impulse...
Some may have gotten half-way
There, and then changed their minds.
He wonders if he too might have made a similar mistake.

Flashbacks. Reminds me of a time before my mirrors started getting wrinkles.

The Argumentum ab popularis cultura cannot be a logical fallacy if it is the 'Same as it ever was...'