Two Liberal Primers, Mike Baird from NSW and Will Hodgman, Tasmania, have offered to help with any increased effort by Australia in assisting with the humanitarian crises unfolding in Europe. Liberal back benchers Craig Laundy and Russell Broadbent have called on the government to do more. Bill Shorten has joined the calls for an increase in the number of Syrian refugees. Tony Abbott has dispatched immigration Minister Peter Dutton to Geneva to hold talks with UNHCR about what further contribution Australia can make. Abbott has not committed to numbers, other than to say “significant”, which indicates a substantial increase on the more than 4400 people from Syria and Northern Iraq Australia took last year.
From what I have read so far I must commend those Liberals who have stuck their necks out on this, it would be so easy for them to go with the flow of the extreme right of the party, and condemn these human beings to their fate, as I am sure there are many on the forum who are ready and willing to do so

Dear Paul,

Thank You for this discussion.

The Saturday Age, Sept. 5th, 2015
pointed out - here in Australia, one of the wealthiest
and most fortunate parts of our planet we should never
forget that there are millions of people across the world
who are prepared to die to have a chance to approximate
a lifestyle we sometimes take for granted.

For the most part these people are fleeing persecution and
life-threatening conflicts. The overwhelming majority as The
Age states of the 60 million displaced people in the world,
a staggering and historically large number, do not want to
leave their homes, their communities, the lives they have
built.

The Age says - they are desperate human beings. The truth
is that the number of asylum seekers at any given time is
primarily a function of local strife (push factors) rather
than immigration policies elsewhere (pull factors).

Australia, the world's 12th largest economy despite having
only about one third of 1 per cent of the world's population,
is a wonderfully wealthy and lucky nation. Much of what we have
achieved is the result of hard work and decency, of cherishing
each other's rights and enshrining them in a system based
on opportunity and democracy, on the rule of law,
on family values and community.

And much of our fortune comes from -
We happen to live on a part of the planet blessed with
abundant natural resources.

There are many things we need to improve here.
But that does not mean we cannot simultaneously show
compassion and enlightened self-interest by reaching out to
a lot more of the world's needy during these terrible times.

I agree with The Age editorial when it states that we have
to be part of a global community.

That is why it is so important that now our current
government has changed its mind and decided to show the
world that Australia is truly decent and strong by agreeing
to increase its intake of refugees. We will now be seen as
global leaders, and we shall have more ability to influence
events beyond our borders.

Foxy and Paul, if we are one of the wealthiest countries, why on earth is our health system so under funded, or why are our seniors forced to either wash their cloths of heat their rooms, as they can't afford both.

We have unemployment at record highs, and that's using the fudged figures government agencies provide plus, our youth unemployment is at crisis point. Yet you want to bring more moths in, more that will in all likelihood be totally non productive, resulting in even more strain on our already under funded essentials.

While most of us can't help but feel sorry for these people, it's pointless offering assistance if we don't have the money.

Besides, whether we like it or not, many if these people have placed themselves in the position by uncontrolled breeding. A tough stand but so very true. I had two children because that's what I felt I could afford. Surely parents have to take responsibility fir their children, regardless of where they live.

As has been said before, how many are you two prepared to billet in your homes?

Yes, at last the PM is listening to members of his own party, as well as others in Parliament on this issue.

I have been embarrassed up to now at the cold shoulder Abbott was showing to the over-run European countries trying to manage this crisis alone.
If we were in the same situation as them, I have no doubt they would offer to take some refugees, and who knows what lies ahead with our Indonesian and Malaysian neighbours?

I would hate for many Aussies to feel the same as some others on this forum and make this a religious/racist issue. We are proud Aussies and most of us are brighter than that, thank goodness.

The Australian magnet. What other countries give refugees, no wonder they want to come here.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-03/how-asylum-seeker-help-compares-in-major-european-union-nations/6745490

Dear Rehctub,

Your questions should be addressed to the current
government. They have to stop blaming others and take
responsibility for their own incompetence. Hence their
slide in the polls.

Dear Paul,

Did you happen to watch "Q and A," last night?

The general consensus seems not only that Australia should
increase its intake of refugees, but that it should also
send financial aid as well. Also, the figure of 30,000
was mentioned which is small compared to what countries
in Europe are taking and providing financial assistance
as well.

Interesting though that the US is not helping out financially
or taking refugees - when as someone mentioned their
involvement in the region has contributed to the causes of
this tragedy.

What a bunch of hypocrites. Every measure to raise revenue has been opposed by Labour/Greens and the foolhardy Senate. Now they want to spend billions on a rescue mission. They will continue to want more money spent on hospitals, education and roads and cry like babies if asked to contribute.

Hi Foxy,

Missed Q&A 'T' and I were in the city at the rally in support of our Syrian brothers and sisters, a big crowd in Sydney and I believe a massive turnout in other cities across Australia. The US is disappointing, as part of the problem, like us, they also need to be part of the solution.

Runner, the 'Good Samaritan' I know some christian folk and I don't believe for a moment your are a christian, you don't have a christian bone in your body. Read your bible and tell me how we should treat others, before you spit your hate and venom around the place

'Runner, the 'Good Samaritan' I know some christian folk and I don't believe for a moment your are a christian,'

With the judgement you show with most things and people it shows I am on the right tract.

No increase in overall numbers, said Abbott. The limit stays at 13,750 per annum. That should be scrapped, too. The time has come to put up the shutters before the West is swamped by Islam, run by Islam, ruined by Islam. European countries had already thrown in the towel by agreeing to the EU debacle; now they are committing suicide by not repelling country-shoppers who don't want to stop where they land; oh no, they demand to be sent to their countries of choice - the richer ones like Germany and Sweden or, how about Canada where they can get a new set of teeth for nothing. What fools Westerners have become!

Dear Paul,

Good on you for attending the rally in Sydney.
We would have gone - however at present I've got
a husband and grand-child with the flu. I'll
probably get it next.

It is sad that some people do not see our moral
and legal obligations to help those poor desperate
human beings. But Thank God there's enough people who do
have compassion and a sense of decency. People like
yourself and your wife and family.

Paul1405, "The US is disappointing, as part of the problem, like us, they also need to be part of the solution"

Any chance of you and the Greens ever criticising Saudi Arabia and the wealthy Arab states along the Persian Gulf for doing SFA, squat? Y'know, before you go smearing the US and Australia, who are putting the lives of their own young men and women on the line, something that is not being done by the hordes of young men fleeing Syria and leaving their women and children at risk?

<How many Syrian refugees have the Arab world’s six wealthiest nations resettled? Close to zero

Ishaan Tharoor, Washington Post | September 7, 2015 11:06 AM ET

..A fair amount of attention has fallen on the failure of many Western governments to adequately address the burden on Syria’s neighboring countries, which are struggling to host the brunt of the roughly 4 million Syrians forced out of the country by its civil war.

Some European countries have been criticized for offering sanctuary only to a small number of refugees, or for discriminating between Muslims and Christians. There’s also been a good deal of continental hand-wringing over the general dysfunction of Europe’s systems for migration and asylum.

Less ire, though, has been directed at another set of stakeholders who almost certainly should be doing more: Saudi Arabia and the wealthy Arab states along the Persian Gulf.

As Amnesty International recently pointed out, the “six Gulf countries — Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain — have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees.”

..Moreover, these countries aren’t totally innocent bystanders. To varying degrees, elements within Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the U.A.E. and Kuwait have invested in the Syrian conflict, playing a conspicuous role in funding and arming a constellation of rebel and Islamist factions fighting the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

None of these countries are signatories of the United Nations’ 1951 Refugee Convention, which defines what a refugee is and lays out their rights, as well as the obligations of states to safeguard them...>

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/how-many-syrian-refugees-have-the-arab-worlds-six-wealthiest-nations-resettled-close-to-zero

Dear Paul,

The Gulf countries have contributed to humanitarian aid.
Saudi Arabia has given 18.4 million dollars to the
United Nation's Syria response fund so far this year,
while Kuwait has given more than 304 million, making it the
world's 3rd largest donor. It turns out that the United
States has given the most - 1.1 billion dollars and has
agreed to re-settle about 1,500 Syrians. The Gulf countries
have taken 160,000 Syrians in the last 3 years.

Of course finger-pointing is happening that not enough is
being done. Many in the Gulf States are blaming the US and the
West for letting the conflict fester for more than 4 years
while Mr Assad's forces deployed chemical weapons and
bombed civilian areas causing so many people to flee.

Dear Paul,

I forgot to add the website of the article by
Ben Hubbard (NY Times) that explains the current
situation more clearly of why the Gulf States
are under attack for their response to the
Syrian refugees. It's worth a read.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/06/why-gulf-states-wont-do-more-to-help-refugees-fleeing-syria-for-europe.html

Foxy - $10 says that the audience were vetted in advance to stack it in favor of what the producers wanted.

If you think that was not a biased result you are kidding yourself.

Fox,

From your link and should we take it that you side with "Kuwaiti commentator Fahad Alshelaimi who said in a TV interview that his country was too expensive for refugees, but appropriate for laborers"?

<The Arab nations of the Persian Gulf have some the world's highest per capita incomes. Their leaders speak passionately about the plight of Syrians, and their state-funded news media cover the Syrian civil war without cease.

Yet as millions of Syrian refugees languish elsewhere in the Middle East and many have risked their lives to reach Europe or died along the way, Gulf nations have agreed to resettle only a surprisingly small number of refugees.

..humanitarian groups are increasingly accusing the Arab world's richest nations of not doing enough to help out.

Accenting that criticism are the deep but shadowy roles countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia have played in Syria by bankrolling rebels fighting President Bashar al-Assad.

And wealthy Gulf citizens — with or without their governments' knowledge — have helped fund the rise of Syria's jihadists, according to American officials.

"Burden sharing has no meaning in the Gulf, and the Saudi, Emirati and Qatari approach has been to sign a check and let everyone else deal with it," said Sarah Leah Whitson, executive director of Human Rights Watch for its Middle East and North Africa division. "Now everyone else is saying, 'That's not fair.' "

There are, in fact, hundreds of thousands of Syrians in the Gulf, where vast oil wealth and relatively small citizen populations have made the countries prime destinations for workers from poorer Arab countries and elsewhere. While many expatriates are professionals who have built lucrative careers there, most are low-paid laborers who give up their rights to get jobs and can be deported with little notice.

This group now contains many Syrians who have fled the war, although they get none of the protections or financial support that come with legal refugee or asylum status, nor a path to future citizenship — benefits Gulf countries do not grant.>

Dear Philip,

I have no way of knowing about whether the
audience was "stacked" in favour of what the
producers wanted as you suggest. Although
logic dictates that this would be a rather
difficult thing to do when allowing people
into the auditorium as everyone is allowed in.
So I'm not too sure about your suggestion.
As for the panel? That usually has a pretty good
representation from all sides of politics.
Mike Baird, the Liberal NSW Premier was very impressive
last night. Sadly he's a state politician. We could
use him in Canberra. We need more like him.

otb,

Which part of -
LEAVE ME ALONE!
do you not understand.

Foxy, it might be open to everyone to go BUT a simple phone call to a few advocacy groups will soon fill it with what the producers want.

Dear Philip,

I've been watching the program for a long time
now, and to me, it seems like there's a very
wide variety of opinions and views presented
both in the audience and the panel.

Still, I suppose neither of us can be 100 per cent
certain of what goes on behind the scenes.
We can only go by what we see (or want to see) and
even that is influenced by our own subjective views.

Hi Foxy, the Syrian catastrophe is the greatest humanitarian crises in Europe since WWII. Presently there is between 11 and 12 million people displaced because of the civil war. There are 4 million Syrians registered with the UN as refugees, over 50% are children. 7.6 million are displaced within Syria with the largest external numbers located in Jordan and Lebanon, with a large number possibly 1,000,000 or more having escaped into northern Iraq in 2013, these refugees are now trapped by the conflict in that country. Many more have moved into Turkey hoping to make the crossing into Europe. The situation is deteriorating by the day, but many countries are reacting positively to the crises.

This catastrophe has cut across party political lines in Australia, with Liberal MP Ewan Jones calling on his own government to take 50,000 Syrian refugees. The Greens are supportive of a one off increase in the total refugee intake by 20,000 and Labor 10,000. The government is to announce its response to the cries tomorrow. What ever the numbers are and the final outcome as far as Australia is concerned I hope it is as Abbott said "substantive", nothing less will do.

Foxy, There would be few people who are not disturbed by what's going on at present, but not one person is able to explain just where the money is going to come from here or what we are going to cut funding to in order to accommodate the extras.

Perhaps you might try to give it a go, or perhaps Paul can explain, otherwise what you are saying are just words.

I sincerely hope the both of you earn in excess of $150K per year,meaning you don't get supported in any way by the top 20odd % of tax payers, because if youre not, you are simply willingly committing other people's money.

Words are cheap, especially when you don't have to foot the bill. I just hope you're not guilty of cheap words, while expecting others to pay.

Food for thought hey!

Rehctub, if this Government can find money to pay for a royal commission into trade unions, and is also considering to pay for a plebiscite to consider gay marriage, and pay for 'chaplains' at public schools, they can also decide to scrap all that rubbish to assist some refugees.

We took in Europeans and Vietnamese after their respective wars, and this is no different. People like you carried on about the "Reds Under The Beds', the Yellow Peril, and the Commies when all those other refugees came to Australia.
We aren't doing so bad after all the racist rants after all...

Dear Suse,

Well said.

I couldn't have said it any better.

Thank You.

You're welcome Foxy :)
Luckily, most Aussies feel the same as we do over this refugee crisis, so I wouldn't get too upset over the rants of the few radicals on this site.

Cheers,
Suse.

Butch, a typical response. Oh! How shocking, these poor people are deserving of our help. Then the excuse why you can't help, or should not help. I'll tell you where the money is coming from OUT OF YOUR POCKET! No pussy footing, you can pontificate and procrastinate until the cows come home on this, but at the end of the day the refugee crises facing the world will still be there and growing to such an extent that no one will be immune from its effects, not you, not me, no one. Your comfy lifestyle is under threat, no two ways about it. We the world can work to resolve the problems, and they are huge problems facing us, no one can deny that, or we can doom ourselves to failure by putting self interest first. It may not effect you and I greatly in what is remaining of our life, but if we live long enough it certainly will, or at least have a major impact on our children and grandchildren. 40 million refugees in nothing compared to say 1 or 2 billion, and that could well be the future, I sincerely hope it is not. if we act now we may just provide a better tomorrow for ourselves and our children, we can only hope.

Exactly what solutions do the Greens have, Paul1405? Education and enlightened sex planning including abortion are impossible dreams in the undeveloped countries where keeping the women pregnant is the goal (and not only of 'men') and is decreed by archaic creeds like Islam.

If it were possible you could place that 40million asylum seekers and economic migrants today, but then there would be 40million+ as the ignorant populations got to work to top up and have more to send to those countries foolish enough to wear a blindfold while throwing open their doors.

So out with it by all means, what exactly do your Greens Left recommend? That is outside of their and the Greens usual vicious sledging of any young Aussies who want to have children and their insistence that Australia solve the overpopulation problems of the world.

So much for the Greens idealism and moralising about sustainability, they always refuse to nominate a ceiling for Australia's population; how that target is to be reached; how water, food and energy are to be secured and sustainable; and how it is all going to be paid for.

Suze, you are living in the past my dear, a time when we HAD MONEY TO SPARE and unless you have been living in an isolated cave somewhere, you would realize that there are so many of OUR OWN PEOPLE doing it tough out there, many of whom are worthy refugees having paid tax their whole working lives and raised decent children along the way much of which has been achieved WITH TAXPAYERS ASSISTANCE.

Foxy and Paul, I thought that would hit a nerve, especially since there is a one on eight chance you don't contribute one red cent towards situations like these.

As for a possible solution to this funding, what about we all lobby the government members to donate 20% of their overly generous super funds because after all, they are all high income earners and their supers are bordering on ridiculous, especially when former PM's get rewarded for stuff ups.

Christian refugee will call homosexuality sin
Muslim refugee will call for homosexual to be beheaded
Left to deceitful and ignorance to see or acknowledge the difference

Dear Rehctub,

Paul and his wife and family attended the rally
for Syrian refugees in Sydney.
He showed his humanity by doing so. He gave of his time
to try to sway our government into increasing the intake
of refugees during this global tragedy. I also give of my
time by working as a volunteer with refugees (I don't
get paid for it). I also give of my time - willingly to
try to help people. I have been doing this for some time.
The same as I volunteer at an aged care facility as well -
and have done so for many years.

Shame on you for questioning what other people do
or do not do as a strawman argument in this issue.
Instead of criticising others - what contribution and
example can you show us.
What do you do for your fellow human beings - apart from
criticising?
Self-interest does not matter a great deal when people need
help and are in dire straights.

As for how this country is going to fund this help?
We've always managed to provide help to others in the past
and I'm sure we will this time around.

Perhaps the large
multi-national corporations could be asked to contribute
by paying their share of taxes, or the government could look
at the costs involved in keeping people on Christmas Island
and Nauru or what it costs in providing our ex-PMs in luxury
for life, or how many overseas trips are really necessary for
our politicians when the same result could be achieved by
a simple telephone call, as in the case of Mr Dutton's
recent trip - and the list goes on.

Your concern for this country is admirable. There are many
things we need to improve here. We need to ameliorate some
terrible injustices and remove barriers to equality and
opportunity. But that does not mean we cannot simultaneously
show compassion and enlightened self-interest by reaching
out to a lot more of the world's needy during these
terrible times.

What I don't do Foxy is willingly commit other people's money.

Ill am saying to you is that uless you have a way of personally providing financial support, what gives you the right to demand others contribute.

By all means volunteer, but don't demand others money be committed, especially when we are borrowing just to keep the wheels turning

Dear rehctub,

As a taxpayer, a citizen, a voter, of this country, I
am entitled to make my wishes known to the government
as are you. Therefore you are quite free to let the
government know how you feel on this issue. However,
most Australians it appears do not agree with you -
therefore I think you'll be out-voted in this matter.
But go right ahead and continue expressing your views.
I ,and the rest of the country will do the same.

Foxy, I mean no disrespect, but views are simply words. Where is the money going to come from, and what will have to miss out.

Now if it comes from foreign aid, I have no real problems, but we must also remember getting them here is just the beginning, evidence being in the mess created when Rudd launched his grand plan.

On that note, do we allow the illegals who are in camps in to make room for these people?

How many of these people you are wanting to help could be extremists. I have no idear, do you!

Where were these watermelon greens and labor in the first few years of the Syrian crisis? In 2012/13 Juliar and her cronies only gave sanctuary to 98 Syrians, yet when TA is already granting asylum to 4000 p.a. we get these sanctimonious twerps hypocritically calling for vast numbers of asylum places.

I also note that these same left whingers that are so determined that the government spend $billions on these refugees are also the ones that scream blue murder when Hockey tries to reduce spending in other areas.

As the Christians and other minorities are the most persecuted in Syria, I see justification in giving them priority.

Don't be silly Shadow Minister .
Where is it written anywhere that only Labor or Greens supporters are supportive of taking in Syrian refugees?
You really have no idea.

Do you think Abbott and his merry crew would even consider increasing the number of these refugees coming to Australia if it was only the opposition demanding it?
I personally know many Liberal supporters who have been disgusted at Abbott's slow reaction to requests for assistance in this current crisis.

As for Abbott suggesting piously that we would accept Syrian refugees of 'minority' groups, who are hard done by, no one believes he is not really saying " yes, ok then people, we will take in more refugees, but only if they aren't Muslims".!

What a dreadfully racist and embarrassing thing to say. Is one Syrian Muslim family who have been bombed out of their homes and livelihoods any less needy than the Syrian Christian family next door to them?

No one can say who is violent and who is not out of groups of thousands of these refugees, but we have to take that chance if we are any way human, and if we want to assist the European countries (the ol' Mother Countries?) that many on this forum profess to love so much...

Well, Tony has out-Billed Bill with 12,000 country shoppers from Syria. Bishop chunters on about persecuted minorities - Christians.

Just imagine the piles of head scarfs that nobody owns all over Europe.

I was somewhat pleased with the governments bipartisan approach to this crises, having announced Australia will take 12,000 additional refugees, more than Labor wanted, but less than what the Greens asked for, and a lot less than the 50,0000 Liberal MP Ewan Jones called for. Good to see the rednecks within the Liberal Party failed to gain the ascendancy and humanitarianism is still alive and well, even if it has taken a battering over the last few years. Obviously Mr Jones was not the only positive voice within the party on this, with many others holding similar views.
As for the raving right on the forum, they will be most disappointed and now have to accept the inevitable. Butch you need to get things into perspective, if Australia was to chip in a $100 million, that would only be a little over $4 per head, not a huge impost by any measure. In fact i am sure there are many Australian willing to throw in a lot more than four bucks, or in your parlance a half kilo of sausages.
As for what I do or don't do on this, I don't wish to beat my own drum, but I'll do a little bit more than that $4, and my partner "T" has indicated that she wishes to be involved with this and will phone a Muslim activist friend today as to what help she can be. These things usually take some time to get off the ground.

Well good for you Paul, but please remember, when we see more cut backs in our local services, or increases in what we pay for services just remember this issue.

While im not racist, I can't imagine the reception I woukd receive should I lob on thir doorstep with my extended family, with no papers.

This is sadly a religious war that has gone on for centuries and will sadly go on for centuries to follow. If we want to rid the world of the likes of ISIS, the opportunity has past with the influx of extremist we, and other nations allowed into our countries.

Welcome to world war three people as it's started without a shot being fired. Economic strangulation is the latest weapon of mass distruction.

Dear Rehctub,

I wish that I could give you a big hug and
re-assure you that your fears are really
unwarranted. That everything will be allright.
The following link provides some information that
may help appease your concerns. It shows that
Australia takes in such a small amount of refugees,
compared to developing countries - that we really
have nothing to be concerned about. Anyway I hope
this will help you:

http://www.factsfightback.org.au/does-australia-take-the-most-refugees-check-the-facts/

The real cost of saddling ourselves with the totally unnecessary burden of 12,000 mainly useless people has settled at 1 billion dollars at a time when our economy is hopeless, and the same stupid politicians who buckled to European and UN pressure were telling us that they would have to put up taxes. (To cover their other reckless and unnecessary spending). The worst single urger and Liberal bleeding heart (apart from federal backbench drones nobody has heard of), Premier Baird, has been pushing for an icrease in the GST for some time - the inconsistent, two-faced oik.

Oh for a political party with courage and concern for Australia and Australians; people with the sense to know that Australia is not what is by luck; it is because we are the exact opposite of those people wanting to leave countries they have ruined or never developed because they are not like us.

Foxy I too am a tax payer. I pay my own income tax, I work for free for the other tax payers by way of collecting GST for them and I work for free calculating and paying wages, taxes and super for my staff, with the taxes being part of the consolidated revenue you are wanting to spend, I also pay more in taxes than I draw out. So no, I reject your claim that as a tax payer you have the right to lobby government to spend our taxes on external matters, unless of cause you are one of the 20odd percent who actually pay positive taxes.

By all means be entitled to your vote, but unless you are in the 20% bracket, then I'm afraid you are in fact trying to spend other people's money.

Dear Rehctub,

If you object so strongly to your elected government
allocating financial aid to the current refugee crisis,
then you are within your rights to refuse to pay your
share of taxes. But of course be prepared to face the
consequences. Of course your can always stand in front
of Parliament House and protest - or work towards
removing the current government.

"… increased effort by Australia in assisting with the humanitarian crises unfolding in Europe. "

The biggest humanitarian crisis unfolding in europe is packs of Muslim refugees and immigrants in Sweden raping white women, and no-one dares talk about it because racism.

Suze,

I did not claim that only labor and the greens were calling for the settlement of Syrian refugee, quite the contrary. Before the toddler drowned and the twitterati swung into action, the liberals were bringing in 4000 p.a. in stark comparison to the 98 brought in under the labor / green coalition. Labor is the most generous when in opposition.

Secondly I wondered who would be idiotic enough to try and play the race card, and you won the prize. It is no secret that Yazidis, Christians and other ethnic minorities in Syria and Iraq have been singled out for special executions, slavery etc by ISIS, and would have the greatest difficulty returning to their homes.

The preference should always go to those in the greatest need.

The rabid right are beside themselves on this one! Poor old Tone has let them down, he is not working to script. In fact he has actually done something good for once, how dare he. A new knuckle draggier has jumped on board to spit his own form of hate and venom, welcome aboard, not, what ever your name is.

Butch, when you are forced to post "While I'm not racists" You answer your own question! You are trying to justify your own racism.
Well good for you Butch, doing all that philanthropic work for your fellow man, collecting taxes or whatever you claim you do, good for you! You and those of your ilk have lost this one, and I am glad.

Hi Foxy as I type this I've got some background music playing, and what's playing now Bob Marley's 'Three Little Birds' here it is on Youtube, for no other reason than inspiration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaGUr6wzyT8

The fac is we live in a country that has adopted the attitude of, have as many kids as you like, because the tax payer will foot the bill.

Many other countries are not stupid enough to adopt this 'she'l be right mate" attitude and we are opening the flood gates to our over generous welfare system, you know, the one that's buckling under the strain and in danger of having the payees (the top 20%) say, enoughs enough.

So go ahead an gloat Paul as you have just denied your grand children and their childrens childrensome of the luxuries of life you took for granted.

Rehctub "The preference should always go to those in the greatest need."

Lol! You must be very naive indeed if you think Abbott and Co are very concerned at all about '...those in greatest need.' I believe ISIS is not very choosy about who they kill?

Abbott makes it abundantly clear he doesn't want Muslim refugees coming here, and that is wrong.

Hungarian troops are heading to their border to block the invaders. Austria Is considering cutting rail services from Hungary.

Whoopee, and good luck to them!

....Abbott makes it abundantly clear he doesn't want Muslim refugees coming here, and that is wrong.

What, don't we have enough for you yet Suze.

I wouldn't let any more in refugees or not. Muslumisum has been a failure wherever they go.

Suze,

You are attributing my quote to butch, and if you don't believe that ISIS targets non Muslims for special barbarity, you are unbelievably naive.

One of the objectives of stopping the boats was to prevent the quota of refugee places being filled by economic migrants and queue jumpers as happened under labor. With the boats stopped, places can now be given to those in greatest need.

I think we are finished here. Big Girl's Blouse Abbott has buckled as usual, and we are getting 12,000 country-shoppers on top of all the other economy-sapping bludgers we already have.

Shadow, I take it you are in agreement with the governments decision to take 12,000 additional refugees?

ttbn, if you were to hop a plane to say New Zealand, then there would be one less, am I correct?

Paul,

I do agree. That was the whole point of stopping the boats to prevent people dying, and ensuring that those that got sanctuary were the most deserving. Women, children, families especially persecuted ethnic minorities are the most deserving.

"Women, children, families especially persecuted ethnic minorities..."

Why sanitize discrimination with pretty words? Why not just say it like it is, on national security grounds? Religious extremism and violence is most likely to emanate from followers of Islam, as world events have proven over the last 15 years.

So as not to increase that likelihood in Australia, Islamic refugees should be resettled here in proportion to their already existent proportion of our population. This should appease the Islamic community that currently feels aggrieved by the LNP's obvious discrimination.

Better, IMO, find 12000 atheists amongst the 60 million refugees so we don't risk having more "Christian" likes of runner in our midst trying to rule over us with their fairy-tales.

LF,

Discrimination on the basis of need is the purpose of foreign aid, and if you can't see that I seriously question your ethics. Are you so against anything the coalition does that you are prepared to abandon any decency to criticize

No minority is more despised and marginalized by all religious sides in the ME than atheists, where non-belief is a bigger crime than belief in an alternative god.

Obviously, Islamic Australians and their supporters must be as devoid of ethics as me given their opposition to the LNP policy, which is clearly discriminatory as Muslims are not the minority they need to be to receive Australian succour under it. Around 30% of refugees were Muslim in 2013 and that figure is probably much higher with developments in Syria since then.

A pox on all religions, AFAIAC, that seek to rule the lives of everyone with their fairy-tales.

LF,

I am an atheist, and have no truck for religiosity from anyone. In the middle east, people are defined by their heritage, Christians are from Christian families, Shiites from Shiites, Sunnis from Sunnis, Yazidis from Yazidis etc. ISIS is predominately Sunni, and they treat Shiite and Kurd Muslims badly, but reserve special barbarity for ethnic Christians, Yazidis and other non Muslim ethnicities. Unless Aus intends to take all 4m Syrian refugees, then they need to discriminate in terms of need, and the ethnic minorities are definitely the worst off.

What do you propose? A lottery, spin the bottle?

Kurds and Shia are fleeing death just the same as the rest. Those of that persuasion in Australia feel discriminated against under the current policy and might just go for spin the bottle or a lottery instead.

What I'm saying is the discrimination should be faced squarely rather than covering it with a fig-leaf. The policy should be presented as necessary on security grounds.

Smoke and mirrors has always been big in the politics of all sides, so don't think I'm singling out your beloved LNP on this one. Australian Muslims need it spelled out to them rather than drawing conclusios: http://www.icv.org.au/index.php/latest-news/media-releases/382-icv-urges-pm-to-be-fair-and-transparent-in-refugee-intake

LF,

We are facing the reasons squarely, you are the one that seems a little twisted.

Everyone is fleeing from the fighting and "death" the minorities have not just suffered threats from war but threats from persecution in the middle east for decades, and if the fighting does cease, are the most likely to face continued risk of persecution and death if returning.

I am still looking for some reasoning from you why those most in need should not get preference.

I think it's fair to suggest Muslims have shown they are unable to prevent their own from radicalizing so why on earth would we consider taking more in, needy of not.

Butch, a racists statement, not even worth commenting on!

Nothing racist about it Paul, real , but not racist. You see many people confuse racism with realisim.

Ahh... the old 'I'm not racist, but....' statement.

I'm not racist, but Welshmen and Kiwis root sheep.

Ok, so tell me, what's racist about saying we don't want any more people who have known extremists who follow their religion/faith. In fact, non Muslims have even converted to Islam and become extremists.

What's racist about suggesting we don't need any more of these people in our country who themselves CAN NOT guarantee some from within will turn against us.

Sorry, but my rule has always been prevention is better than cure. I think I will stick with that, even if I am seen to be racist, because after all, I have a duty to help provide my grandson with the same peace loving environment I enjoyed as a kid, even though I've missed the boat.

Butch, do you serve "Muslims" in your shop? Or do you have a big sign in the window, which reads something like 'Towel Heads Keep Out!' WHITES ONLY! Maybe you rant on the forum about them, but I bet you don't say boo when it comes to making a quid out of them. And don't give me that crap about Muslims only buy meat from halal shops, that is not true.

Paul,

You hate Catholics, that makes you a racist?

I notice that after the initial opening of borders to migrants, everyone is now slamming the doors shut as just about every country suffers a massive voter backlash against the torrent of mostly young Muslim men, especially now that Germany etc are realizing that other countries are not interested in taking a portion of the nearly 1m immigrants that their policies attracted.

I guess that Abbott's policies of turning boats around is starting to look like the only option now.

Actually Paul, I make it very clear that I am not a Halal approved supplier and that I don't condone the practice.

Besides, I don't hate Muslims, I just hate what their preaching can do, even to your Aussies at times.

Now while I'm the first to admit that not every Muslim is a terrorist, pretty much every terrorist is a Muslim and if we were to attract just one more extremist in with these refugees, then that's one too many for my likings. Unlike the likes of yourself, I'm not willing to take that risk.

I grew up as a kid in a country that was a peace loving nation where terrorism was a word only ever heard on the news. Surely my grandson is entitled to the same.

Wrong again Shadow, (how many times have I posted that), I don't hate Catholics, or anyone for that matter, such an overused emotive term is hate. I hate the institution that is the Catholic Church, and the continuing hypocrisy of that, and other ecclesiastical organisations. I am an atheist, I have little time for organised religions as such, the Islamic religion included. Does that clear that misconception of yours up, I hope so.

"I (SM) notice that after the initial opening of borders to migrants, everyone is now slamming the doors shut" A natural reaction, people feel threaten, but like Abbott's turn back the boats it does not mean the problem has gone away, simply temporally diverted. I to have seen the images of riot police with their tear gas and water cannon "combating" refugees in Europe. The world, including Australia, is fast approaching the cross roads on the issue of refugees, at the moment about 42 million of them, that number can grow exponentially in a very short time. There is more than one scenario for solving the problem, from the extreme with guns and bullets to the humane. I for one favour the humanitarian approach, which is more expensive and more difficult and time consuming, but definitely less destructive than the extreme solution.

Butch, you did not answer the question, do you serve Muslims, and therefore profit from them? A simple yes or no will do.

"I (Butch) grew up as a kid in a country that was a peace loving nation. Obviously you didn't grow up during WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq I and II and now Syria. What might be fair to say is I grew up in a country that, although heavily involved in war, was able to keep up the appearance of peace loving. "Surely my grandson is entitled to the same" I hope not, surly he is entitled to something better.

Paul,

Your relationship with Catholics is the same as Butch's with Muslims, as so if you call butch a racist, you are essentially calling yourself a racist.

Given the last few decades, the crimes perpetrated by muslims against all other faiths, women and children, based on some muslim scholars' more extreme interpretations are sickening and eclipse even the worst abuses of the Catholic churches from the same period.

https://twitter.com/coinabs/status/644683475031715840/photo/1

People are scared of muslims for the same reasons they are scared of sharks, the danger is very rare, but it is indiscriminate and brutal, and people are leaving the beaches.

Shadow again I must say wrong again!

<<Your relationship with Catholics is the same as Butch's with Muslims, as so if you call butch a racist, you are essentially calling yourself a racist.>>

No it is not.

Butch said <<I think it's fair to suggest Muslims have shown they are unable to prevent their own from radicalizing so why on earth would we consider taking more in, needy of not.>>

A blanket statement covering all Muslims, men women and children. Irrationally Butch wants to penalize all for the actions of a few, something the vast majority have no control over. The only commonality being their religion. That is racism.

I on the other hand have said I dislike the Catholic Church, an organisation, I just as easily could have said, I dislike the KKK another organisation. At no time have I said all Catholics are responsible for the actions of the organisation and a minority of members, then demanding all be penalized in some way for the actions of that minority.
How can a person be racists towards an organisation. You are racists towards the Labor Party, ridiculous.

//pretty much every terrorist is a Muslim//

Codswallop. I used the the University of Maryland's Global Terrorism Database to have a look at terrorist attacks in Australia between 2000 and 2014; there have been more committed by non-Islamic perpetrators such as anarchists, neo-nazis and regular garden-variety nutters than there have been by the dreaded towel-heads under the beds. Check it out for yourself:

http://tinyurl.com/nc4e7xd

You are entitled to your own (medieval) opinions, rechtub. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

Toni, thanks for that link, the gullible, and we have a couple on this tread, want to believe the narrative as pushed by the likes of Bush, Howard and Blair, and more recently Abbott. Like conservatives the world over they are naturally frightened people, and susceptible to influence, particularly when that narrative plays on their already deep seated latent fears.

Paul,

Your own all encompassing denigration of the catholic faith is no better than that of which you accuse butch. Besides Butch has not accused women and children of supporting terrorism, but rather the muslim community of turning a blind eye to its more radical elements, which has substantial evidence.

TL,

I looked at your website, and of these 18 events, 4 have been terror attacks by Muslims and 4 non muslim terror attacks the other 10 are undefined. What is not covered are the many planned attacks that were thwarted by ASIO.

There have been enough actual and thwarted attacks in Australia and the world in recent years to give credence to butcher's statement, and you can start with 9/11.

While it's politically incorrect to attribute Haider's and Monis' efforts to Islamic extremism in the figures, why must ISIS or some other Islamic outfit have to claim responsibility for what it clearly spawned?

It's a fool's paradise to ignore the high proportion of real terrorism, with its clear intent to kill rather than to damage property, in the name of Islam.

//I looked at your website, and of these 18 events, 4 have been terror attacks by Muslims and 4 non muslim terror attacks the other 10 are undefined.//

You didn't look closely enough then. Count with me:

15/12/2014
Mon Haron Monis attacks the Lindt cafe in Sydney. A well known case. 
Score: Muslims 1; non-Muslims 0, unknown 0.

3/11/2014
Assailants opened fire on Rasoul Al-Musawi outside of an Islamic prayer center in Bankstown area, New South Wales state, Australia. Musawi, a Shiite religious leader, was wounded in the attack. No group claimed responsibility for the incident; however, people chanting pro-Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) statements drove by the center just before the shooting.
Score: Muslims 2; non-Muslims 0, unknown 0.

23/9/2014
Abdul Numan Haider stabs two police officers before being shot and killed. Another well known case.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 0, unknown 0.

12/8/2014
Assailants set a private vehicle on fire that belonged to an Australian Federal Police (AFP) officer outside the police station in Beechworth town, Victoria state, Australia. Perpetrator unknown.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 0, unknown 1.

18/5/2014
Informal Anarchist Federation set fire to a luxury vehicle on Moncur street in Woollahra neighborhood, Sydney.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 1, unknown 1.

18/5/2014
Informal Anarchist Federation set fire to two vehicles on Queen street in Woollahra neighborhood, Sydney.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 2, unknown 1.

24/2/2014
Assailants threw three homemade incendiary devices at the Logan Police District Headquarters in Logan City, southeast Queensland. Attack attributed to anarchists.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 3, unknown 1.

2/9/104
Assailants set fire to Gran Turismo Autos, a luxury car showroom in the West Melbourne area. The Informal Anarchist Federation claimed responsibility for the attack.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 4, unknown 1.

4/2/2014
Assailants fired on a mosque in Queens Park, Perth. Authorities believed that neo-Nazi group Combat 18 were responsible.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 5, unknown 1.

8/10/2009
An improvised explosive device destroyed a vehicle and damaged two buildings in Condell Park, Sydney. Perpetrator unknown.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 5, unknown 2.

10/12/2008
Two private vehicles belonging to Warwick....

....police officers were firebombed in Joondalup, Western Australia, by Ryan Jones (not a Muslim).
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 6, unknown 2.

8/12/2008
A Holden Rodeo ute vehicle carrying a 220-liter fuel tank was backed into the Joondalup police station and set aflame by Ryan Jones.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 7, unknown 2.

21/4/2008
A 30 mm pipe bomb rigged with external batteries and a mobile phone was detonated by the police bomb squad unit after it was found by council workers in Vale View near Toowoomba, Qld. An unidentified 21-year old male was arrested over the incident.
Score: Muslims 3; non-Muslims 7, unknown 3.

1/8/2006
A group of Middle Eastern men stoned Parramatta Synagogue’s roof and windows and damaged cars nearby. It's probably safe to say these guys were Muslims.
Score: Muslims 4; non-Muslims 7, unknown 3.

8/4/2006
The mobile phone shop of former Shapelle Corby backer Ron Bakir was firebombed at 6:00 a.m. when a man bashed the glass doors of the shop with a rock before dropping a cigarette into a canister of fuel on the footpath outside in Broadbeach, Qld. Perpetrator unknown.
Score: Muslims 4; non-Muslims 7, unknown 4.

15/10/2001
A letter delivered by mail to the U.S. Consulate in Melbourne, Australia contained an unknown chemical agent. Perpetrator unknown.
Score: Muslims 4; non-Muslims 7, unknown 5.

23/9/2001
An arsonist destroy a Brisbane mosque. It's probably safe to say this guy was anti-Muslim.
Score: Muslims 4; non-Muslims 8, unknown 5.

17/10/2000
A sniper shot at a train traveling between the between the Normanhurst and Thornleigh suburbs of Sydney. Perpetrator unknown.
Score: Muslims 4; non-Muslims 8, unknown 6.

Well, the plucky Muslims started out well with a few strong goals, but got taken by surprise by the non-Muslims scoring strongly off the backs of anarchists with some notable assists from neo-Nazis and random nutters, ending up a full four points behind and looking like the most ragtag bunch of jihadists you ever saw. A terrible result for the Muslims and a surprise win for the anarchists who will no doubt be torching a few cars tonight in celebration.

TL,

If you want to play with numbers:

Were the two attacks by Ryan Jones the firebug with a serious case of paranoid schizophrenia really acts of terrorism? I am sure that if you widen the definition of terrorist attack far enough you will get thousands. Similarly your assumption that the arson attack on a Mosque was a non muslim is courageous considering the other attacks on mosques by Muslims. And once again you have failed to take in the thwarted attempts at serious carnage by muslim extremists, or the deliberate destruction of property and assaults at the "protest". Finally considering the muslim population is >1%, that puts an entirely different complexion on the issue.