Following a meeting in Melbourne Australia of "Australians for Reconciliation in Syria" (AMRIS) today, 3 September 2015, spokesperson David Macilwain said that AMRIS unequivocally condemns atrocities committed by 'Islamic State' in Syria.

AMRIS deplores, however, the decision by the Australian Government to follow the lead of the United States in taking military action against IS within the borders of Syria, one of the founding members of the United Nations, without the consent of the Syrian Government.

Mr Macilwain said, "Such action will do little to 'degrade and destroy’ the terrorist group, whose control over territory has only continued to increase despite a year of US Coalition airstrikes. Furthermore there have been significant civilian casualties and damage as a result of those airstrikes, leading to further refugee flows."

We should all deplore the idea Australia bombing Syria. Non-participating citizens would certainly be killed by Australian bombs in Syria, just as the bombs being dropped, to no avail it seems, are killing civilians now in the Middle East. ISIS is getting stronger than ever.

Also, hasn't it sunk into Abbott's thick skull that, every time we become involved in a conflict that really has nothing to do with us, we get a flood of invaders in hired boats from the countries we are 'helping'? It started with Vietnam, which we helped America LOSE, and it has continued since. The current cessation in arrivals will last only as long as the Coalition government does. When Labor gets back in, the invasion of illegals will start again.

I deplore the idea of anyone bombing Syria, not that it matters much anymore.
This whole thing is a proxy war to remove Assad and I wont be fooled by the Wests ulterior motives.
I also oppose attacking ISIS in Syria without Assad's approval and oversight.

Syria is one more issue on which Australian Nationalists and the True Left should be in agreement and showing solidarity, if we want an end to Saudi led Sunni imperialism and a return home by the refugees from Europe or even if you favour liberal,multicultural, pluralistic societies across the middle east Assad is the example and his style of government the only hope. The median IQ level across the region is drastically lower than that in the West or in North Asia, around 80 points, the only way to hold societies full of dumb people together and stop them from killing each other is with dictatorship, secret police, capital punishment and zero tolerance policing.
Both Left and Nationalist have to accept that ISIS is the real Sunni Islam, it's Islam as it's been practiced for the entirety of the movement's existence, the fact that Abbott and Shorten are too cowardly to even pronounce it's name in English doesn't change that fact. Reinstate the Shia and Alawite dictatorships, arm Assad, Al Sadr and Hezbollah and carpet bomb the ISIS strongholds until nothing is left alive, then the reconciliation and disarmamanet process in Syria can begin and the "Balkanisation" of those counties can be implemented so this can't happen again.

Family of drowned toddler Aylan Kurdi had been given FREE housing in Turkey, while father’s story is full of holes.
"Abdullah Kurdi’s story is made-up. But his lies are now being used and rewarded by the media in full blown propaganda, while pressuring policies to force Europe to take in more economic migrants who have never experienced a war zone.
Abdullah was never on that boat to watch his wife and children drown. That’s why he was the only survivor. The first time he learned of their death was from the hospital after the photos of his young son was circulating in the media. Listen to all the contradictions and holes in his story.
This was an attempt to send his wife and children into Europe before his own arrival to apply for refugee status as a lone woman with children, while they never even lived in a war zone."
http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/family-of-drowned-toddler-aylan-kurdi-had-been-given-free-housing-in-turkey-while-fathers-story-is-full-of-holes/

He should be gaoled Jay but as usual rewarded by the regressive media. Disgusting!

THe full story for those interested in what actually happened.

http://whitelawtowers.blogspot.com.au/2015/09/family-of-drowned-toddler-aylan-kurdi.html?m=1

Once these Syrian refugees crossed into Turkey
They were no longer in a war zone. Their need to seek asylum was no longer necessary. Why did they then get onto boats and cross
Over to Europe.

Turkey is a Muslim country from what I've read. Why come to a predominantly
Christian Europe. We all know the Muslims have no tolerance for Christian beliefs.
They are economic migrants not asylum seekers.

I do however feel sad when I see the little children in this situation?
Would Arab nations ever tolerate, 100s of thousands of Europeans arriving
In their countries. Especially Christian ones. Ditto. Africa or India.

Cherful wrote, on Saturday, 5 September 2015 10:12:09 PM, "We all know the Muslims have no tolerance for Christian beliefs."

How do you know?

In Syria, amongst the strongest supporters of the Syrian government, led by Alawite Muslim President Bashar al-Assad, is the Syrian Christian community. Many of those Syrians still speak Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus Christ.

In fact, some ostensible Muslims do murder these Syrian Christians as well as other Muslims in Syria. These are the terrorists, armed and paid for by the United States, France and their regional allies including Turkey and the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. These Christians are defended against these 'Muslim' terrorists by the Muslims of the Syrian Arab Army.

This whole drama comes from the same idiots who brought you the "Colour Revolutions", "Occupy" and the "Arab Spring", unnamed sources in Austrai intelligence have been quoted as saying that U.S NGO's have been organising the boats in Libya and paying the crews.

Should read Austrian intelligence,sorry, no link, the page is suspect.
"An anonymous employee from the Austrian Defense Office, which is operated by the Austrian Federal Ministry of Defense, says that some groups in the USA are paying smugglers to get more African and Middle Eastern immigrants into Europe. “Traffickers demand exorbitant sums to bring refugees to Europe illegally. The conditions are often very poor, but still a transport does currently cost 7000-14000 Euro…” the Austrian Defense Office employee told Info-Direkt.at.

“There are insights that organizations from the US have created a co-financing model and contribute substantial amounts to trafficker’s costs. Not every refugee from North Africa has 11,000 euros in cash. Nobody asks where the money comes from.”

The employee said that there was a “strict news blackout” on how the African and Middle Eastern immigrants were able to pay the traffickers fees.

Here's a few readers reactions taken from
The Age newspaper, Saturday September 5th, 2015:

1) We should favour beds over bombs.
It's time Australia opened its doors.

2) Mr Abbott, how many adults and children,
Syrian and others, do you think will soon be
fleeing Australian bombs?

3) Julie Bishop opposes dropping food
into Syria because its indiscriminate
but dropping bombs isn't?
Sort that one out.

4) Hopefully, George Bush, Tony Blair, and
John Howard will be re-incarnated as refugees.

5) Abbott should look at our treatment of refugees
when he talks about covering up evil.
We're still not allowed to know.

6) Those little shoes.

Finally in The Age Editorial on Saturday, we're told:

"...the threats to humanity do not stop at national
borders. And through trade agreements and in
international forums and organisations, we have reached out
to the world. That is why it is so disappointing, and
reflects so badly on our nation, that our recent and current
governments have treated asylum seekers so appallingly.
As founding signatories to the United Nations refugee
convention, Australia has a legal obligation to over-turn a
policy that should never have existed. We clearly have a
moral obligation. And, again,
it is in our enlightened self-interest to do so,
if we help those in need in the bad times, we will be
seen and treated as global leaders, giving us much more
ability to influence events beyond our borders."

"The Age would like to appeal to the goodness that clearly
drives our communities, and to the people we elect to make laws,
to seize this moment to emerge from a sad and shameful
chapter of our modern history. We can and should increase our
humanitarian intake of asylum seekers and we can and should
work with other nations, particularly in our region, to set up
a system to process such people quickly and kindly. We can and
should use the image of Aylan Kurdi's death to show the
world we are truly decent and strong."

Foxy the mainstream media and Fairfax media in particular is full of lies, it's not until you step out from behind the computer and actually involve yourself in "controversial" activity that you see just how wide the gulf between fact and the fiction written in The Age really is.
Anything you read on Fairfax, The ABC or Newscorp sites is basically fiction, they literally just make stuff up to suit their globalist-capitalist agenda, I'd take it with a grain of salt.
I challenge you to pick a cause which challenges the capitalist orthodoxy, it doesn't matter what it is and become involved, put your boots on the ground so to speak, you'll see what I mean.
I've personally been attending the UPF rallies and observing their counter demonstrations, I've been cynical about the media for a very long time but even I was shocked by the bias and outright falsehoods in the reports from people like John Elder, Chris Vedalgo and Bianca Hall.
Foxy they're liars and while I don't feel sorry for our side, mainly because we're winning at this point I do feel sorry for the well meaning, good hearted people such as yourself who've been gulled by the capitalist media.
Multiculturalism is the central pillar and most potent tactic of 21st century globalist capitalism, support for multiculturalism and open borders is support for imperialism and, yes, support for the Syrian bombing campaign, it's no longer possible to look at it any other way.
The "refugees" flow in, people like you are mollified for a while and the corporate spokespeople like Abbott, Obama, Merkel and Cameron live to fight another day.

malthusista wrote on Sunday, 6 September 2015 1:17:12 AM

"In Syria, amongst the strongest supporters of the Syrian government, led by Alawite Muslim President Bashar al-Assad, is the Syrian Christian community. Many of those Syrians still speak Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus Christ.

In fact, some ostensible Muslims do murder these Syrian Christians as well as other Muslims in Syria. These are the terrorists, armed and paid for by the United States, France and their regional allies including Turkey and the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. These Christians are defended against these 'Muslim' terrorists by the Muslims of the Syrian Arab Army."

I think the posting above should be compulsory reading for Prime Minister Abbott.

If PM Abbott wants to help Syrian refugees as he is indicating, then Australia and allies should be helping President Assad to regain control of Syria.

It is apparent at least some Middle East countries need a dictatorship to maintain control of the different tribes and religious followers.

Prime Minister Abbott should step up like a man and ask President Assad for agreement and assistance to drop bombs in Syria.
And the United States and all allies should do the same.

Regaining peace while developing prosperity in Syria would end the refugee exodus and most Syrians would surely return to their homeland.

Here is an interview with Assad. I found it at "The Saker"- if you want to get a fresh perspective on world events this blog is amazing.

“We rely firstly on people, of course after relying on God, but if you don’t have public support then you cannot withstand. If you don’t have public support then there is no value for any political or national direction you adopt as a president or official or state. First, you rely on the people, and second on friends who stand firm alongside Syria and support in the region and in the world,” His Excellency said. ...

“It was proposed that the crisis had political causes. This is incorrect. As I said before, the cause is foreign interference, but we went along with all that was proposed. They said the problem is about the constitution, so we amended the constitution . They said the problem is about the laws, so we changed the law. They said the problem is about the economic track of the state’s economic policies, so we changed many of those policies at that time. ...

Regarding some proposals that suggest things like revising the constitution or holding elections under international supervision, His Excellency said that things like revising the constitution aren’t a problem..."
http://thesaker.is/president-bashar-al-assads-al-manar-august-25-2015-interview/

Assad is not perfect, but Syria was a secular (with a sizable Christian minority) safe and prosperous country before it was torn apart by the US backed war. What is the plan if Assad goes? Will it become another failed state like Iraq and Libya? ISIS is a creation of the US, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey. There are many sources confirming this, including the ex-spy chief, ret Lieutenant General Michael Flynn check out his interview on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG3j8OYKgn4 - need to go in about 8 mins.

Jay of Melbourne, I agree, I think the left and the nationalists can both support the idea that bombing Syria is not in our or the Syrian's best interests.

I think where that unity dissolves is over the threat posed by Muslim immigration. While I think you are correct that the elites have encouraged Muslim immigration to disrupt our society. I think the Muslim threat is purposefully oversold by the mass media and politicians. I think it is a useful boogey man, a useful tool to keep us afraid and divide us.

You know and I know that Al Qaeda, ISIS, Muslim Brotherhood, are all supported by the US and British military industrial complex. They kill many more Muslims than they do infidels. If the US and its allies stopped funding and supporting them they would fade away.

They are a useful tool as they can be used to fight proxy wars eg Syria, Libya, Iraq to destabilise these countries and give us an excuse for yet another Western war of liberation which strangely never brings the freedom or better life we promised, but without fail Western corporations get in and extract oil, gas and get billion dollar no bid reconstruction contracts.

However, these extremist Jihadists are also great for whipping up fear and terror domestically. We fall over ourselves to give up our freedoms and liberties to feel safer, but it is never enough. Why is that? After 15 years of the war on terror we feel more afraid than ever.

"Why of course the people don't want war.... it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." H Goering

>>"We all know the Muslims have no tolerance for Christian beliefs.”<<

This should rather state “for those who convert to Christianity”.

One example: Recently in a refuge camp Suhl in (eastern) Germany (holding 18000 but designed for 1200), nobody wanted to share the bedroom with a young Afghan after he announced his conversion. He was mobbed day after day until he erupted, tore out some pages from a koran and flushed them. This is when the riots broke out. The mob chased the poor bloke through the town until he found refuge in a local police station. Firemen and ambulance were scared to interfere. At the end 17 injured, including six policemen and damage in hundreds of thousands. A man who had helped them to settle a year ago had his car smashed (allegedly the insurance would not cover it, since the riots were classified as “Act of God”). See http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33999801 or in more detail in German in http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article145779834/Das-Multikulti-Krisengebiet-im-Thueringer-Wald.html .

Today, hundreds or thousands of Germans are cheerfully welcoming hundreds of thousands of exhausted refugees mainly from Syria and other Muslim countries, and that is good so. However, the above example shows what can happen after a year, if applications for asylum are not processed fast enough.

There were other examples of lesser riots, e.g. in Czechia, not as rich as Germany (and pork in Europe is much cheaper than beaf) when the imam forbade them to eat at the canteen because the meal contained pork sausages. And Slovaks are rebuked by Brussels when they say that for their culturally homogeneous and poor country it is easier to integrate Christians than Muslims.

Indeed, here in Europe the refugee tsunami (some call it Voelkerwanderung, migration of nations e.g. along the route Turkey-Greece-Macedonia-Serbia-Hungary-Austria-Germany) is growing into a problem for which there are no simple - even less simplistic - answers. It might easily mean the end of EU as we have known it.

OLO is so entertaining !

We should condemn ISIS for its utter savagery. We shouldn't bomb ISIS.

Assad is a brutal dictator. We shouldn't get involved in the war between Assad and ISIS.

We shouldn't bomb ISIS without Assad's approval. Bombing ISIS is actually a devious US attack on Assad.

The US is financing people-smugglers across the Mediterranean. The US and the EU are in league to keep out refugees.

The EU, the US, Canada and Australia should increase their refugee intake, of the most destitute and desperate. Ultimately, the current problem must be solved at source, although obviously this will take enormous effort, a very long time and cost an enormous amount of bloodshed. So, in the meantime, all countries should recognise their human responsibilities for people suffering from wars and corruption not of their own choosing and open their arms to genuine refugees.

Oops, sorry, that last one was mine :)

Joe

Oops,

"(holding 18000 but designed for 1200),"

should obviously be

"(holding 1800 but designed for 1200),"

Yes Loudmouth, it is a madhouse.
What no one seems to have learnt, or perhaps it is too politically
incorrect to consider.
The Arabs are unable to compromise with each other.
That is the source of most of their upheavals.
People who have genetic mental difficulties often exhibit that behaviour.
This is a racial trait due to their thousand years plus of marrying their cousins.

Not taking this into account becomes frustrating because solutions
that seem reasonable to others are rejected.
It also explains their intolerance of others and it has been written
into their religion.

Watching the crowds breaking through the wire and walking enmass
across the paddocks looks to me like an invasion and it quackes like an invasion.

It turns out that a number of the 'refugees'are from Pakistan. Regressive hatred of Christianity has largely led to this idiot destruction of Europe. Age of reason!

If employment with $100 a day take home pay was available for these people there would be no such civil unrest or exodus.

It's chronic hardship and boredom and irritability associated with hunger and irritability, that breeds discontent, hopelessness and unrest.
And of course there are the opportunists that use that situation.

It is not inbreeding or thousands of years of whatever that turned the US & co against Assad.

And where is the proof and trial that proves Bashar al-Assad brutal?

Assad was educated in the US and on return in a news interview he sounded like and appeared to be a decent and sensible man.
It was his father that started that dictatorship.

What's more, very recently it has been seen that ISIS is using chemical weapons, not Assad.

If people really have to talk about the drowned child here, it should be recognized that the poor little boy's tragic death was caused by his stupid and self indulgent parents, one of whom wanted to get a new set of teeth in Canada.

These truly awful invaders were not refugees by an definition; they had lived safetly in Muslim Turkey for three years and the father had work there. You really have to ask yourselves why Muslims claiming Western bias towards them are country shopping for Western countries only. Perhaps you need to learn more about Islam, and realise that immigration (legal and illegal) is one of the most important weapons to introduce a world caliphate. Don't worry about ISIS in Muslim countries; worry about the unarmed invaders of the West.

I note that Loudmouth's 'rebuttal' on Monday, 7 September 2015 10:37:56 AM of:

Bjelly on 6 September 2015 10:43:35 PM ;

Jay Of Melbourne on Sunday, 6 September 2015 7:43:48 PM, and 6 September 2015 8:08:58 AM ;

JF Aus on Sunday, 6 September 2015 10:04:34 PM ;

Armchair Critic on Friday, 4 September 2015 6:39:27 PM ;

ttbn, Friday, 4 September 2015 12:06:20 PM and

myself on 6 September 2015 1:17:12 AM and 4 September 2015 1:48:57 AM

... does not address any of the substance of those posts.

Hi Malthusia,

Probably because I wasn't rebutting anyone specifically, only trying vainly to show up inconsistencies in various arguments.

Here's another one: ISIS is just a bit-player in the Middle East [even though it controls a larger territory than New South Wales with perhaps five million people under its fascist control, has an army larger than Australia's, and has driven many millions from their homes]. We should take twenty thousand Syrians.

I certainly agree that we should take twenty thousand Syrians: the most persecuted twenty thousand: Yazidis, Kurds, Turkmens, Christians, Druses, and a hundred other persecuted minorities who have never done any harm to anybody. The Saudis can take Sunni refugees, and the Iranians and Iraqis can take Shia refugees. Funny, I don't see them rushing to make offers.

ISIS a bit-player ? I wonder who di Natale thinks are the main players then ?

Joe

>>The Saudis can take Sunni refugees, and the Iranians and Iraqis can take Shia refugees. Funny, I don't see them rushing to make offers<<

The Saudis, although not taking any refugees themselves, promised to help Germany to cope with the influx by financing the building of 200 new mosques! (http://www.ibtimes.com/amid-muslim-refugee-crisis-saudi-arabia-vows-build-200-mosques-germany-2090905).

//The EU, the US, Canada and Australia should increase their refugee intake, of the most destitute and desperate.... So, in the meantime, all countries should recognise their human responsibilities for people suffering from wars and corruption not of their own choosing and open their arms to genuine refugees.//

But if you do that then you open the door to people who aren't like us, who will be a drain on our economy and who are trying to invade and conquer our country by stealth so they can convert us all to their barbaric religion.

Just look at what happened after the Vietnam War... we opened our door to genuine refugees suffering because of war, and even though Australia was much wealthier back in the 1980's the huge influx of country-shoppers looking for a government handout bankrupted the country because refugees don't contribute to the economies of countries they resettle in. Not only did they bankrupt us, we all have to speak Vietnamese and follow the Vietnamese folk religion. How on Earth could anybody think it is sensible to repeat these mistakes with Syrians?

//........ Australia was much wealthier back in the 1980's the huge influx of country-shoppers looking for a government handout bankrupted the country because refugees don't contribute to the economies of countries they resettle in. Not only did they bankrupt us, we all have to speak Vietnamese and follow the Vietnamese folk religion. How on Earth could anybody think it is sensible to repeat these mistakes with Syrians? //

?

Meanwhile malthusista, I was suggesting that Australia and allies remove their iron curtain and work legally with President Bashar al-Assad and Russia and Iran to make the the process legal, to bring about peace and prosperity.

Hi Toni,

Thanks, there's another one:

(a) " .... you open the door to people who aren't like us, who will be a drain on our economy and who are trying to invade and conquer our country by stealth so they can convert us all to their barbaric religion."

(b) We shouldn't bomb, or take any hostile action, against the fascist ISIS thugs.

Thanks. Actually, Vietnamese is quite a beautiful language, I've tried to learn the basics. For some years, I sold Vietnamese coffee at the Sunday markets and met some really great people. They'd often been through hell, but were usually happy and positive. Bloody good workers too.

But you're entitled to your views: after all, there is no law against being a bigot, and OLO is the best forum for all of us, decent people AND bigots.

Joe

The sudden upsurge in immigrants arriving may not be as spontaneous
as perhaps we thought.
Specifically what started the sudden surge out of Turkey and Lebanon ?
Was there an Arabic twitter and facebook campaign ?

The Greeks have discovered a container of "aid for immigrants" that had
a lot of military style rifles packed in the container.
Most of the voice was in Greek so it was hard to get the gist about it.

Was that part of a plan to arm the "refugees" of whom some 70% are
unaccompanied males of military age ?
This plan was floated sometime ago from memory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn-UCR5p0y0&feature=youtu.be

It could all be a misunderstanding, but ---

The Syrian Girl video: #RefugeeCrisis: What the media Is hiding

https://candobetter.net/node/4571#comment-177299

Below is of the start the transcript of the above 13:24 minute video “#RefugeeCrisis: What The Media Is Hiding, Help #SyrianRefugees Go Home” by Mimi al Laham, also known as “the Syrian Girl”.

This is Syrian Girl. The media’s painting the refugee crisis as an acute issue, but the Syrian war and refugees had been there for four years and Aylan [Kurdi] wasn’t the first child refugee to drown. Last month an eleven year Syrian girl old drowned off the coast of Egypt. So, why is there such a media push now? Well, it’s just in time for when France, Britain and Australia were asked to join the US’s war on Syria. In fact, the US asked Australia to join his coalition a week before Aylan died. So, they’re using sympathy for this child’s death to drop bombs on more children while crying crocodile tears over them as they run from those bombs.

Just look at this headline from the Sun: “BOMB SYRIA” “FOR AYLAN”. You’d think they’d make themselves less obvious. This is the city that Aylan comes from. The area was blown to smithereens by the US. Rupert Murdoch couldn’t even wait for Aylan’s body to go cold before he started exploiting it for more war on Syria. …

Bazz,

Of course it isn't spontaneous. The main tactic to achieve a world caliphate is immigration, legal or illegal. If unarmed invasions are allowed to continue, ALL people in the weak, suicidal West will have their bums in the air and their heads facing Mecca. Those chumps wanting to bomb ISIS have their eyes on the wrong target.

Hi Methusalista,

Thanks for another one:

(a) The US is all-powerful and all-evil;

(b) The US is engineering a campaign to overwhelm Europe with refugees, and by putting all their governments at such an inconvenience, is trying to persuade them to join in the bombing of ISIS.

(c) Kobane, where that child came from, wasn't destroyed in the fighting between ISIS and the Kurdish patriots but by US bombs, before the US stepped up bombing raids on ISIS. Devilishly cunning - who would suspect that they could destroy a city before they began bombing, while ISIS stood idly by ?

(d) Therefore Murdoch is engineering all of it, to sell more papers.

Brilliant ! Amazing how the minds of some people work.

Joe

Loudmouth wrote:

(a) The US is ... all-evil;

That happens to also be the view of Paul Craig Roberts, who worked as an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan administration.

See http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/09/06/us-government-continues-prove-evil-incarnate/

Ah yes Loudmouth, the same studio Fox made the
moon landing, 2000 a Space Oddessay and 9/11.

Hi Methusalista,

So .... you're saying that a member of the Reagan administration is slagging the Obama administration ? Okay ..... and your point is ?

Sometimes things are not hard to understand. A Syrian girl dies and it gets very little attention. Two small boys are drowned, in the midst of tens of thousands of people trying to flee across the Aegean and Mediterranean and it gets attention. Well, yes: tens of thousands are fleeing, and this is one of the consequences. Seventy one people dying and rotting in the back of a truck is another consequence.

I don't think we've seen the crest of this wave yet :( Millions want better lives, away from civil war and brutality and corruption - and all just a boat-rip away from Europe. With winter approaching, I fear there will be many, many more drowned in the seas. And sooner or later, Europe will turn off the tap of compassion. Other ways have to be found to stop the flow of misery.

So how can this ghastly war in Syria be brought to an end as soon as possible ? Say, in the next five years ? Which is the worstest enemy in this war ? ISIS. Which is the second worstest enemy ? Asaad. One thing at a time.

What will replace Assad, IF Syria survives as an entity, which is unlikely ? Hopefully, a democratic, popularly-elected government - but such transitions have been very rare in history: people who have never known anything but dictatorship may not have a very developed notion of fair play, of democracy, of one-person-one-vote, and whoever gets most votes (more or less) wins, which might mean that the party you don't like gets in.

It's a complicated world, Methusalah :)

//(b) We shouldn't bomb, or take any hostile action, against the fascist ISIS thugs.//

I don't know about not taking any hostile action. But just bombing won't do much except make lots of rubble. The Krauts tried it on the British during the WW2 and it didn't stop them losing the war. Airstrikes are nice because the good guys don't get hurt, but I'm not sure how effective they are a winning strategy.

//Actually, Vietnamese is quite a beautiful language, I've tried to learn the basics. For some years, I sold Vietnamese coffee at the Sunday markets and met some really great people. They'd often been through hell, but were usually happy and positive. Bloody good workers too.//

Thanks for reiterating my point.

Loudmouth wrote: "Which is the second worstest enemy ? Asaad."

Perhaps you could watch the 56:28 minute interview of President Bashar al-Assad on 10 Sep 2013 by Charlie Rose of 60 minutes at https://candobetter.net/?q=node/3445 and tell us what questions he should have put to President Bashar al-Assad in order to better make his audience what a horrible person al-Assad was.

Loudmouth wrote:

What will replace ... is ... hopefully, a democratic, popularly-elected government

Syrians already have a democratic, popularly-elected government.

On 4 June 2014 President Bashar al-Assad won overwhelming endorsement of the Syrian voters. 88.7% of the 73.42% of eligible Syrian voters who voted, voted for President Bashar al-Assad. So, of 15,845,575 Syrians eligible to vote, eligible voters 10,319,723 or 65.13% voted for Bashar al-Assad. The validity and fairness of that election was verified by international observers at a press conference at the United Nations headquarters in New York on 19 June 2014. See https://candobetter.net/node/3888 with embedded 53 minute video.

Name one leader of any of the governments opposed to President al-Assad who enjoys anything close to that level of public support?
the Syrian government has far more legitimacy than any of its international opponents

I have seen an increasing number of comments recently that it is not
realistic to expect Islamic Arab countries to accept democratic government.
The suggestion is that their history, tradition and their
religion precludes the acceptance of democratic systems and the
separation of government, courts and religion.

Those three principles are completely at odds with Islam.
It is now ingrained with the people and they see our governments as
being very weak, something we all agree with at times.
It took our forebears hundreds of years to break the connections and
indeed the reformation to enable the parliament to insist on its
separation from executive of government.

The above comments are the reason that the west's understanding of
what the Arab Spring was about was so wrong.
It never was a thrust for democratic government, it was a protest
against unfair government, high prices for food and a failure to bring
prosperity to the masses of the people.

Prime Minister Abbott, here is more compulsory reading for you. (copied and pasted from above comments on OLO).

On 4 June 2014 President Bashar al-Assad won overwhelming endorsement of the Syrian voters. 88.7% of the 73.42% of eligible Syrian voters who voted, voted for President Bashar al-Assad. So, of 15,845,575 Syrians eligible to vote, eligible voters 10,319,723 or 65.13% voted for Bashar al-Assad. The validity and fairness of that election was verified by international observers at a press conference at the United Nations headquarters in New York on 19 June 2014. See https://candobetter.net/node/3888 with embedded 53 minute video.

Name one leader of any of the governments opposed to President al-Assad who enjoys anything close to that level of public support?
the Syrian government has far more legitimacy than any of its international opponents
(end copy paste)

Prime Minister Abbott, if you want reconciliation and peace in the Middle East then you could lead the process by assisting the Assad government to force ISIS out of Syria.

JF Aus do you know if voting is compulsory ?
Probably not, as it is not very common.
I suspect in countries with religious divides the percentages may only
mostly be of one religious group. Difficult to determine that.
A big uncertainty.
The civil war that followed proves my point.

Bazz, I think the great division between religions and tribes in the Middle East is why a dictatorial type of government is most suited to those countries, such as Syria.

Iraq and Syria were both doing reasonably well socially and economically until the west decided to force democracy.

And anyway, what is democracy as we know it here?
Just look at major media in Australia dumbing down and also influencing the thoughts and votes of our people.

JF Aus
Actually the religion of both sides demands a theological dictatorship
and the minorities are crunched in between.

Well our democracy is not perfect but is way ahead of any alternative.

I agree, Bazz.
But think how good genuine democracy could be.
Wishful thinking.

Just because The 100's of thousands of males coming into Europe
Are not armed doesn't mean they are not an invading force.

It means that any army can land on the shores of any country and say
We are not armed so you have to let us in.

The taking of countries without an armed fight.

Wow! All the wars in history need never have been fought.
They could have just thrown away their weapons and overrun any country they liked
The idea of it is ridiculous.

I always said you can't apply civilian law courts in a war situation.
As has just been witnessed in Europe it means you can't defend
your country from mass invasion because you are not allowed to use force. Ridiculous.

Cherful, you forgot to mention that when they arrive they are re settled including with fortnightly income.

https://candobetter.net/node/4592

Interview with President Bashar al-Assad: 'If you are worried about refugees, stop supporting terrorists'

Previously published (15/9/15) on RT. Watch the full version of the interview with President Bashar al-Assad on http://www.rt.com/on-air/ at 03:00 GMT today on 16 September (1:00PM in Australia's East or 11:00PM in WA).

Europe is "not dealing with the cause" of the current refugee crisis, Syrian President Bashar Assad said in an interview with Russian media, RT among them, adding that all Syrian people want is "security and safety."

"It's not about that Europe didn't accept them or embrace them as refugees, it's about not dealing with the cause. If you are worried about them, stop supporting terrorists. That’s what we think regarding the crisis. This is the core of the whole issue of refugees.

...

President al-Assad has also given lengthy interviews in English with interviewers less sympathetic than Lizzie Phelan of RT. This includes Charlie Rose of 60 Minutes and the BBC.

Hi Methylista,

A sympathetic interview with Assad on Putin's RT ? Of course.

Of course, the West must help Syria to destroy ISIS. But what comes afterwards, i.e. that they can and/or should do something about ? Supporting a broad democratic movement ? Sure, if one existed. Leaving Assad in place, after all of his brutality, indeed genocide of his own people ? Back to Square One ? Then why on earth should the West ever bother getting involved against ISIS in Syria ?

Clearly, the back-channels are probably working overtime to pressure Assad, once ISIS is defeated, to take part in a coalition government which totally excludes ISIS and any jihadists, but includes democratic forces, such as they are, and Sunni who are, after all, the majority of the population; obviously all of the persecuted minorities have to be represented as well. With such disparate elements, the whole circus would have to be overseen by international forces, a coalition of the West and Russia.

The failure of the Arab spring everywhere except the more cosmopolitan Tunisia, raises the possibility that, in their current religious and ideological states, democracy is simply not a full-on option. Of course, it should be supported wherever it arises, but we would be kidding ourselves if we think that people can lurch from a dogmatic/either-or ethic which has always favoured some form of dictatorship of the most powerful (the only complaint being that it is not 'our' dictatorship), to anything faintly resembling democracy.

From this perspective, the Assads have been simply more of the same, at the tail-end of 1350 years of absolute power. Spengler likened the civilizational ethic of the Middle East, Persia (as it was in his day) and Tsarist Russia - 'Petrinism', he called it: all were about as far removed from anything democratic as you could get. Those poor buggers have a very, very long row to hoe.

Joe

Methusalista,

Oh, and the chatter on those back-channels probably involves making it clear to Assad that, during any Western attacks on ISIS, he is not to simply leave the West to it while he gets stuck into the various other groups. After all, the West can always simply stop their attacks on ISIS in Syria, and focus on Iraq.

Joe

OZ MEDIA BREAKTHROUGH ON SYRIA: LATELINE TONY JONES INTERVIEWS DR BOUTHAINA SHAABAN, PRESIDENT AL-ASSAD'S KEY ADVISOR

https://candobetter.net/node/4593

Finally the Australian media has shown some professionalism and has asked questions of the 'other side', Syria, instead of simply making it up. And it was Tony Jones of the ABC who courageously led the way on http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4314916.htm Lateline tonight. President al-Assad's advisor, Dr Bouthaina Shaaban, does an admirable job of clarifying the problem and sorting out priorities. Mr Jones asks questions that reflect Western paranoia, but Shaaban is not diverted from her representation of the needs of the Syrian people. "...Targeting presidents in the Middle East does not aim at presidents. It aims at destroying our country, turning our identity, erasing our cultural heritage, destroying our institution. It is Syria that has been targeted, it is not President Assad. President Assad is standing with his army and people to fight for the unity and territorial integrity of his country and this is what we are doing here." This interview probably comes in the wake of the Russian interview with President Assad republished at https://candobetter.net/node/4592 . Dare we hope that justice might prevail; that some sense of proportion might restore itself in the western world's to date unhealthy interest in 'regime' changes in the Middle East, each of which has been more of a humanitarian disaster than the last? Yes, we dare hope. Thank you Tony Jones.

...

There are many good honest and decent people at the Australian ABC, let's hope Tony Jones is one of them.
Many are held back by agenda of others.

I wonder if there might eventually be Nuremberg-type hearings to find and prosecute those responsible for the worsening death and destruction in Syria consequent to political spin 'news' and inaction to aid the Assad government.

JF Aus,
I doubt if the politics of the ABC will ever change as it is in its DNA.
Let me tell you a story about my son.
The day he started work there a friend told him if he was a liberal
voter to not let on about it if he wanted a career there.

A joke about it was that there were no gays in the closet there as it
was full of Liberal voters.

Bazz, I think change has to occur especially because of social media revealing for example, other views such as OLO's malthusista is bringing into the open.
Fingers crossed anyway, for a peaceful and prosperous future for as many people as possible.

Thank you, JF AUS, Bazz

INTERNATIONAL ALLIANCE'S STRIKES [LED BY US, BRITAIN, AUSTRALIA AND FRANCE] IN SYRIA VIOLATE INTERNATIONAL LAW

https://candobetter.net/node/4595

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=68&v=2jzQOfpKBaM

The air strikes carried out by the international alliance against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria "ISIS" terrorist organization in Syria contradict with the international law and don't affect the capability of the terrorist organization, Russia's Permanent Representative to the UN Vitaly Churkin said.

What our western partners are doing in Syria is considered a flagrant violation of the international law as they justify their steps by the Article 51 of the UN Charter on the right to self-defense, Churkin said in a press conference in New York Wednesday, adding that they carry out strikes in the territories of a sovereign country without the approval of its government.

...

Damascus says the three countries should stop sending terrorists into Syria if they want to fight terrorism.

Donald Trump has said in relation to war in Syria causing refugees to spill into Europe, "let them kill each other and then pick up the pieces".

The pieces are already being picked up off beaches and from boats and where floating dead in the water.

America must take down it's modern day iron curtain and help President Assad and Russia to gain control of peace in Syria.

If American and Russian people can join in peace in the space station it should be possible for America to now urgently join Russia to help regain peace in Syria.

Why is US Secretary of State John Kerry not helping to stem the flow of desperate people out of Syria?

What justifiable reason does John Kerry have to go after Assad?
What has Assad been convicted of doing? Exactly what?

Lives of many good Syrian people are being lost.
There has to be justifiable reason to not help stem such loss however possible to now urgently achieve.

Picking up the pieces is not justifiable, as the World Court may eventually find.

John Kerry has blood on his hands.

The Trump approach is a disgrace.

JF Aus, you missed the most important question;
Why do they get into boats when they could catch a bus or train from
Instanbul or simply walk across the border between Turkey and Greece or
Bulgaria ?

Is being boat people more dramatic ? Or just plain stupid ?

malthusista, I do not think that it is as simple as you make it out to be.
If attacks are being made from ISIS controlled areas where the Government
of Syria has no control, then it is either an attack by the Syrian government
or the Syrian government has lost the territory.
Also there is the law regarding hot pursuit.

I think to say it is illegal is drawing a long bow.

Malthusista,

Just to elaborate on Bazz's comment:

Question - has ISIS launched attacks on Iraq from Syrian soil ? Yes ? Then the Iraqis - and whoever they choose as their allies - are entitled, under international law {'hot pursuit'], to pursue and destroy ISIS, in Syria.

Actually, in law, they are entitled not just to pursue ISIS into Syria and destroy its forces there, but to occupy that territory. Whether or not it is still technically part of Syria is probably irrelevant in law.

And surely the Russians know this. So why are they hostile on attacks on ISIS in Syria ? Of course, they are not colluding with them, but is it more a matter of support for Syria's national pride, an assertion of Syria's rather thread-bare sovereignty ? Over territory that they haven't controlled for years ?

OF COURSE, Russia wants to be the only big-power meddling in Syria, that's understandable. But Russia has no right to speak about eastern Syria, bits of Syria that Assad hasn't controlled for years - and on the basis of Russia's own rationale for its invasions of Georgia, the Crimea and eastern Ukraine, it can't now criticise whatever is happening in eastern Syria. Sauce and goose ....

Joe

Malthuista said;
Damascus says the three countries should stop sending terrorists
into Syria if they want to fight terrorism.

If that is the case why are we stopping them at the airport and will
gaol them if they are silly enough to come back ?
We gaol them & do not cut their heads off !
Anyway, in this new form of warfare I doubt if there are any rules.
The present rules are to cover where large armies sweep across a
country with a front of hundreds of miles wide.
Malthusister, it is no longer the dark ages.

The air activity severely limits ISIS's ability to move columns along
the roads in day or night. It is beginning to look like their expansion
has been restricted. They are starting to stagnate and that ultimately
leads to surrender or suicide. I hope the latter.

Bazz, not all thre boat people are coming from Turkey.

There is yet another important question.
Syrian refugees should be able to just step into Israel where they could be cared for while working in a Kibbutz until peace in their country returns.

Surely Israel can afford a to care for a few such asylum seekers.

JF Aus, how would Israel be able to sort out the ISIS in the crowd from
the genuine asylum seekers.
As you can see the Germans are having the same problem as we did.
The ones we see on TV are coming mostly in small boats that appear to
be piloted by someone who has never seen the sea before.
Are you suggesting that they are coming from Lebanon, if they are it is
in ships and not rubber duckies. ?

Why are they not travelling from Turkey by road ?
It has to be stupidity.
Why am I the only one to ask this question ?

Bazz, I think Israel would have the best experience to sort out the killers and criminals. It would be a good opportunity for Israel to work toward peace in the region.

I think you are asking the land travel from Turkey question because the news reporting is confusing.
I think most of the passengers are coming from the coast of Libya and I think some of the people smuggler drivers leave from Turkey and go to Libya to pick up their passengers, a very lucrative cash on the spot cargo. Smugglers go where the money is.

The drivers must have some experience otherwise they would not get so far out to sea. However even most experienced drivers would not have experience with heavy cargo, especially heavy cargo that is not tied down and that rolls like jelly causing imbalance in reasonable open water swells. Those desert dwelling passengers have no idea of balancing the boat when needed.

No JF Aus,
You are thinking of those going to Italy. It would be an impossible
voyage in a rubber ducky to go from Lybia to Greece. You could not
carry enough fuel anyway.

No they are traveling the strait between Turkey and the Greek Islands
distances about 20km. On the TV taken in Kos you can see the mountains
in Turkey in the background.
Some are traveling from Lybia, but must be getting there by air.

If they went via Istanbul they would end up a lot further North and
would not have to get from the Islands to Athens.
No stupidity seems the most likely explanation.

What do you think would happen if they arrived in Israel with a
hostile Arab population at hand with a contingent of ISIS arriving in
the crowd of refugees. Anyway, they would probably refuse to go there.

Hi JF Aus,

Obviously one question is why Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are not taking refugees. The more crucial question is why none of the refugees seem to want to go there.

We should sympathise with the Gulf States, they're probably much more preoccupied with building 72 islands in the shape of virgins, for luxury apartments; and kilometre-high towers. Perhaps they could call them 'Babel'.

Israel has absolutely no obligation to take hostile populations into its territory. Why on earth should it ? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they already have, perhaps Christians or Druse. Their hospitals have been caring for wounded from both/all/every side, it seems. They don't really have a dog in this fight, and the less Israeli involvement in any way, the less complicated life will be for them. If Iran gets involved - and that might only happen if the West doesn't get stuck well and truly into the ISIS fascists - the picture might change.

Here's a scenario: The West, Russian and Iran agree to a truce between such pro-democratic groups as there may be, and Assad's forces, to join in a combined effort to utterly destroy the fascists. Any breach by either the West or by Russia/Iran and all bets are off.

Once, after some years, ISIS has been destroyed, some years hence, and hopefully by which time democratic forces and anti-ISIS Sunni forces have got themselves organised, and perhaps the country has been partitioned into a Sunni state and a coalition of democratic forces and a Shia-Alawite-Christian state, ........ hmmm ...... I haven't thought this right through, have I ?

And probably no-one has :(

Joe

JF, you can see them every night arriving in the Greek Islands in
small boats. Boats like that CANNOT carry enough fuel to get from
Turkey to Lybia. It is JUST IMPOSSIBLE !

Hans Tholstrup went from Victoria to Tasmania in a rubber boat with a mini moke on top of it. I wonder the miles from Libya to Greece, Crete anyway.
I think many people are coming by sea from Libya to Italy and Greece.
The different media reports are confusing as I have said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/scores-dead-refugees-boat-libya-coast-150826143403778.html

But I see your point about those arriving at Kos. I think they would go that way to miss danger in Turkey, in the notorioius Kyber Pass for example, maybe.

Hi Loudmouth,

Maybe the refugees don't want to go there because ISIS wants their lot to go with the stampede to Europe.

The shape of islands does not interest me, I would just like one of those teapots from Babylon. Like Major Nelson has.

I have always been pro American especially since they came and fought for Aus in nearby Pacific Islands, but I also agree with Putin helping Assad to regain control.

I think democracy is untenable among so many tribally religious people. I think it needs a dictator to control peace there as best as possible.

JF Aus said;
Turkey, in the notorioius Kyber Pass for example, maybe.

Now I know you are not just a troll, but really incapable of anything.
Just in case I am wrong and you really are suffering from dementure
I would like to inform you that the Kyber pass is between Pakistan and
Afghanistan. Or is it India and Afghanista

Bazz,
Oh well it's late afternoon and it sounded like what I was thinking of.
What is the name of the treacherous mountain pass in Turkey?
Or am I incorrect about that also?

JF Aus,
I don't know of any difficult pass in Turkey. As far as I know it is
just a normal road between Turkey and Greece and between Turkey and
Bulgaria.
I know some went through Macedonia so they may have gone by road.

I see more have drowned going to the Greek Islands and also more were
drowned in the Mediterranean going from Lybia to Italy.
They need Tony Abbott over there, instead they got Sarah Hanson-Young !

Oh well some people are slow learners

Bazz,
I hasten to add I was in Greece in 1970 when an American was caught with drugs that later resulted in the film Midnight Express.
At the time those of us on the road were hearing about dangers in Turkey including high and very cold mountain passes. I think there were bandits in those years.
That's where in my memory in reply to you was coming from.
And my apologies for being incorrect about the Kyber Pass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountain_passes_in_Turkey

JF, I had a look at the link to passes, none of them are in the region
NW of Instanbul. Still I have never been in Turkey so do not have
first hand knowledge of the area.
The Orient Express used to go the Instanbul. So I presume the line still exists.