In another place at another time, an infamous line from the ‘Gestapo’ was “PAPERZ PLEASE!” and woe betide anyone without the correct papers.
Australia is a much different society in 2015 than Nazi Germany was in the 1930’s. We pride ourselves on being a tolerant liberal democracy, but recent events calls into question just what direction is Australia heading, and is the day not that far off when our own ‘security forces’ .randomly accost citizens in the street with the demand ‘PAPERZ PLEASE!’ and woe betide anyone without the correct papers.

This weekend past it was proposed that Australian Border Force check people's visas on the streets of Melbourne, as part of a police operation in the city's CBD, this was firstly confirmed by the Federal Government, then later denied by The Department of Immigration. Is this simply a forerunner to what will become common place as Australia, in the name of security, moves to embrace the ideals of the police state?

In any society, including Australia, there are those that are willing to give up freedoms in the name of security, particularly when they feel threatened by “others” within, and believe giving up their own freedoms will not impact greatly on themselves, but deliver them the necessary security they so desire . Many think giving up a few liberties is a small price to pay for guaranteed security. How far are some of us prepared to go with this? All the way!

Paul 1405,
I explained this to Suse yesterday and she shut up with her nonsense so I'll explain it to you as well in the hope that you'll do the same.
Victorians are subject to random stops, indentity checks, vehicle inspections, drug and alchohol testing and so forth, for anyone who has to move around the city this is almost a daily occurrence.
Victoria Police, Vicroads, the Taxi Directorate, the Department Of Justice and Border Force already set up vehicle checkpoints all over the city every day and all motorists diverted by the road block have to pass along a line of inspectors before they can proceed with their journey.
Explain to me why pedestrians and public transport users in the CBD shouldn't also be subject to the same level of scrutiny?
On one level I agree with you, this country is being strangled with red tape and every time you turn around there's a person in a high vis vest wagging their finger at you, but guess what? The infuriating part of this for most people is the fact that these petty bureaucrats, rent-a-cops and inspectors are almost all immigrants from India, China and the UK!
Paul I wonder how long it is since you've visited central Melbourne? Checking up on people who "look foreign" as Fairfax put it means literally nothing in reality because in the CBD all you see are foreigners these days, therefore it makes perfect sense to look for illegal immigrants in an immigrant enclave.

Dear Paul,

Don't be too concerned. The people in Melbourne
showed quite clearly that they will not tolerate
this kind of behaviour from authorities and the
government backed off.

People should make their feelings known more often.
In any case the only time I have been asked by any
sort of "authority," to show anything was at a railway
station - when they asked me for my ticket.

Nobody has ever stopped me in the city of Melbourne and
asked me for any sort of ID. It's never happened to me
or any of the colleagues I work with.

Paul1405, "Gestapo" "Nazi"

LOL, the rabble-rousing Watermelon Greens are at it again.

It makes sense for the police to have officials from various departments on hand for referral. It is where offending is common. They would be accompanied by child welfare officials if doing spot checks in some of the beach areas for example.

Not so long ago I arrived on an evening flight to find myself as one of the fortunate few with a pre-booked limo and could give two other passengers a lift. Police and Dept of Transport were believed to be conducting a check of cab licences and of course the numerous 'holidaying' Asians who were working off the same licence were chasing cab work anywhere else but the usually popular and profitable airport run. The police probably had an official from Immigration on tap for advice.

As far as I am concerned Melbourne's CBD is still part of Australia and not some "immigrant enclave" that deserves vigilant policing. To say those on four wheels are subjected to a long line of "inspectors" and therefore that in itself justifies those on two feet being randomly subjected to something the same is preposterous.
Civil liberties are increasingly coming under attack from the extreme right, who's beliefs are now well and truly in-bedded in the psychic of some within the Abbott Government and the Labor Opposition. Without diligence those freedoms taken for granted will be eroded slowly but surely, even by some with good intentions.

Martial law coming to a town near you.

You can not compare road traffic with pedestrians. Road users need pulling up so they can pay fines to keep the state going, fines in areas that is.

Never have I ever been pulled up at all, on the street. That is about as far wrong as you can get it. It does not happen.
Every body was a foreigner at some time or another, now there are sons and daughters of foreigners.

I am not sure what the Greens have got to do with it. Get bak in your limo and mind ya own business, we did not need to know that.

The whole thing was an Abbott prank to spread fear around, as Mr Smiths speech said We are under constant attack. It should have said I am under attack

Paul, Foxy just concede defeat on this point, Socialist Alternative were protesting Pyne in Footscray in the morning and then they skedaddled back to the city to block Flinders St in the afternoon.
They don't represent the people of Melbourne they're paid agitators who can at most pull about 50-60 people to an event, did you see their laughable "victory rally" in the city square in July?
According to the ABS two thirds of the permanent residents of the Melbourne CBD were born overseas, so yeah in actual fact it is an immigrant enclave what's more there are thousands of overseas guest workers and students living there so the proportions are even higher in reality.
Go there and walk around on a week night after all the office workers have gone home to the suburbs, all you see are Asians and a few White hipsters in the bars and laneways.

The rabid right, hate any referee to Nazism, its all rather inconvenient, yet you Beach are forever banging on about Trotsky, Trotskysts, Stalin, Stalinests, Marx, Marxists and the Watermelon Greens, whilst claiming that modicum of moderatcy.
A typical ploy of the extreme is to present the erosion of civil liberties as moderate but necessary, and normality will be maintained for the majority.

Thanks Foxy, its the same in Sydney. begs the question. Why can't you show your paperz, if you have nothing to hide. As Beach said "it makes sense." does it not?

What juvenile rot! Paul, try thinking for yourself for a change and give the ratbag press a miss. You are one of the 'useful idiots' playing into the hands of the media, which thinks that they should decide who runs the country.

I have always been vaguely antagonistic towards twitter. It seemed to be a place for a lot of trolling and verbal garbage being strewn around but after the instant demo against the border farce in Melbourne, it has changed my mind and I realise that it is an extremely necessary tool for democracy.
When talking about demands for your ID when on the street, it is not legal for the police ( or anyone else) to ask for anything other than your name and address WHEN carrying out an investigation and NOT just because they feel like it or to help abort win the Canning election.

The police dog can sniff first for drugs.

Hey, wait a bit, maybe just maybe that is why the Greens are so opposed to those nice doggies who sit down so politely and attentively.

ttbn, obviously you have thought long and hard on the subject, and have come to the conclusion these things are best left to the police pleasant dreams. Oh, and thanks for the insults.

If Police State means deporting potential terrorist then let it be a Police State. Those who object are free to leave. Maybe they want us to becaome a total mess like Greece and other European countries.

Paul,

No need to thank me. It's my pleasure. But you are the one insulting the intelligence of people who actually remain calm and wait until the truth emerges. Even after you have heard (assuming you actually listen to anyone else) that the whole thing was caused by a poorly worded press release, inflated by a bunch of moronic feral demonstrators, you still want to keep up the rant. And, the suggestion that Australia has any chance of becoming a police state can come only from a ranter and raver.

You want to talk about insults. Just look at yourself. You are insulting Australia and most Australians by spouting this drivel.

Paul,
Yes but Socialist Alternative, The Socialist Alliance and the Socialist Equality Party actually describe themselves as Trotskyites and regularly hold lectures and study sessions all about Trotsky, what else are we supposed to call them?
The Anarchists describe themselves as Anarchist, the Spartacists describe themselves as Communist but can you tell me the name of one single group or individual on the scene at the moment who describes themselves as Nazist or National Socialist?

Dear Paul,

Last year there was a revelation that members of the
Royal Australian Navy responsible for carrying out
"Operation Sovereign Borders," were also members or
supporters of the anti-Muslim Australian Defence League.
This caused a great deal of embarrassment to the
authorities. It also generated no small amount of
concern amongst the broader public.

http://newmatilda.com/2014/01/29/who-are-australian-defence-league

Perhaps that's why Melburnians took so strongly to the
streets recently.

Dear Paul,

I forgot to add this other website that
you may also enjoy:

http://theguardian.com/Australia-news/2015/aug/28/f-is-for-farce-how-australian-border-force-united-the-nation-against-it

It's worth a read.

Foxy, there were only 50 people at Friday's protest on Flinders St and they were almost all Socialist Alternative's usual rent a crowd of paid agitators. Look a the photos, even The Age put the number of protestors at 50, though they did post photos of the crowd mingled with pedestrians and passers by at one of Melbourne's busiest intersections.

Look at the photo and notice the crowd waiting to cross the road at the top left: http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/6732944-3x2-700x467.jpg
This is what the rally looked like when the pedestrians began to cross: http://goo.gl/uHrFEb
The massively exaggerated figure given by the ABC of 200 people is not a big rally for Melbourne but the real number of protestors was no more than 50-75 at most.

The last few pages have illustrated how to make fools of yourselves.

If anyone wants to se a Fascist manifesto just check the Greens' website.

"If Police State means deporting potential terrorist then let it be a Police State. Those who object are free to leave...."

Wow! - runner....great to know you're in favour of totalitarian regimes.

You're exactly the type of ignorant chump the Abbott govt has cooked up its terror hysteria to influence.

"The new law enforcement agency that came controversially to public attention on Friday, the Australian Border Force, is building a 5000 to 6000-strong body of officers, most trained for use-of-force operations.

Several thousand are already trained to use guns, and eventually the agency will have about twice as many weapons-ready officers as in the agencies it replaced, according to a senior official."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australian-border-force-to-have-up-to-6000-officers-most-trained-in-use-of-force-20150831-gjc0tx.html#ixzz3kTr1tt68

New paramilitary wing of the govt - nice little private army Abbott's putting together.

What a dangerous little man he is - no criticism from otb, of course - who doesn't recognise an extremist when he sees one.

ttbn,

"....Even after you have heard (assuming you actually listen to anyone else) that the whole thing was caused by a poorly worded press release, inflated by a bunch of moronic feral demonstrators..."

Poorly worded press release...Lol!

It doesn't matter what sort of debacle this govt constructs - and this one had sinister overtones - we can always depend on it to attempt to weasel out of it using weasel words.

This press release was carefully constructed - and went to the minister's office "twice". I quotes the most senior ABF officer in Victoria - quotes him!

"“ABF officers will be positioned at various locations around the CBD speaking with any individual we cross paths with,” Mr Smith said.

“You need to be aware of the conditions of your visa; if you commit visa fraud you should know it’s only a matter of time before you’re caught out.”"

The message was deliberate and couldn't have been any clearer...how is that poorly worded?

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/releases/abf-joining-inter-agency-outfit-to-target-crime-in-melbourne-cbd

.....

Robert LePage,

I find I don't get into scraps on twitter - if someone wants to troll or argue unreasonably, I simply block them and they are no longer visible on my twitter feed.

But yes - the minute journalists alerted tweeters to the ABF's plans for Melbourne, twitter went into overdrive. There's nothing like it for sharing information.

L-Plate fascism finds it difficult to get a foothold in the modern world of social media exchange.

What is a little bit strange to me is exactly what kind of papers would they would be asking for anyway?

I am not aware say that "Permanent/Temporary Residents" are required to carry their passports. Is it any different for tourists or students?

And Immigration no longer verify peoples' credentials by a piece of paper in their passport anyway. You can still pay extra to have a piece of paper in your passport but that is no longer required. The system is now all online.

Perhaps they had a known list of individuals who had overstayed or otherwise contravened their visa conditions and they were just trying to nab known offenders by identifying them by some other piece of id.

Of course runner is in favour of authoritarianism and totalitarianism.
He subjugates himself to and worships the biggest authoritarian there is.

Do what I say or I will give you eternal damnation. Thats the voice of an authoritarian tyrant and a bullying blackmailer.
Thats who runner and his ilk bow down to and follow. Thats why he is so quick to profess his love for a police state.

I wonder if he would be so keen on a secular police state like pol pot, the ussr or nth korea?

Nah. runner wants a theocratic police state.
Christian sharia law.

Bring back the inquisition hey runner. A few burnings at the stake maybe. Chop a few hands off. Or is that too basic for you lot? I know you like your medieval torture implements. The rack and those iron maiden thingys.
Maybe a few witch dunkings. That would be good christian fun wouldnt it.
Youve already started reviving the crusades and your "mates" the jews are doing there best on the armageddon front.
So maybe all hope isnt lost runsie.

But I wouldnt bet on it. :)

Quite right Dream On, I don't think anyone in Liberal officialdom thought about anything much at all re this ridiculous debacle! Who carries all their 'papers' around with them in Australian capital cities anyway?

It isn't as simple as OTB and JOM seem to think it would be...like getting picked up for traffic offenses, drunkenness, or drug offenses. What rubbish.
How would they decide who to ask to show their visa or passport 'papers', as opposed to seeing the actual offenses happening with alcohol, drugs or speeding for instance?

I can see it now. As several 'suspected-terrorist-looking' men walk along Little Collins Street in the Melbourne CBD, they are stopped by the Border Patrol Good Ol' Boys who dramatically yell at them 'Show Me Your Papers!".
So the men , all speaking in an Aussie accents, flip out their Aussie birth certificates...

I'll also add that Bill Shorten's response, while the debacle was still unfolding, was spectacularly unimpressive.

He did a good impression of a wet lettuce draped over a fence.

It seems he couldn't garner the prevailing mood of outrage when he first spoke. Noting he came out the next day comparing it to the Prince Philip debacle, it was a particularly notable instance of Shorten waiting to see which way the wind blew.

' Bring back the inquisition hey runner. A few burnings at the stake maybe. Chop a few hands off. Or is that too basic for you lot? I know you like your medieval torture implements'

you r of course describing the abortion industry Mikk. Don't forget you can get good money for baby parts. Thankfully though Mikk your Creator has given you choices even though you make terrible ones. Its the Sercularist/femimist/homosexual lobby that act as dictators.

btw Susie is right about many illegals not having papers. The regressives taught them to ditch their papers before arriving here.

Speaking of Shorten, he actually queried the veracity of his own side's knee-jerk, overblown squealing about a non-occuring visa check by asking would they really do such a thing and advertise it beforehand?

Setting his mouth in motion while his brain was still idling, probably, he inadvertently scored a point for Abbott with his unusually sensible comment.

ttbn,

".....by asking would they really do such a thing and advertise it beforehand?"

Only because one has to be incredulous at the ABF's swaggering stupidity in releasing a document that warns their supposed targets to lie low in the city on that Saturday.

Imitating their creators, the ABF would appear to be a couple of bricks short of a load as well.

Except that Abbott and his cohorts thought they could slip that one through - that having the ABF visible patrolling the streets and hassling people through racial profiling would become the accepted norm - as in:

"With a particular focus on people travelling to, from and around the CBD, the group of agencies will work together to support the best interests of Melbournians, targeting everything from anti-social behaviour to outstanding warrants."

(What have anti-social behaviour and outstanding warrants got to do with the ABF?)

"The inter-agency outfit will continue to work together on an ongoing basis to target crime in and around the Melbourne CBD to make the city a safer place for everyone"

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/releases/abf-joining-inter-agency-outfit-to-target-crime-in-melbourne-cbd

And it might have worked in days gone by - before Australians could communicate nation wide with the click of a button.

"....he inadvertently scored a point for Abbott with his unusually sensible comment."

Tony Abbott didn't score any points in this latest debacle - not one.

We've watched Abbott for two years, beating the war drums, bellowing his terror hysteria, standing next to flags and uniforms, dressing up former immigration officials in black sinister uniforms and insignia.

Let's just say when that press release arrived the other day - it wasn't a surprise - and the good and reasonable folk of Australia told him where to stick his paramilitary fetish.

The OP is foolish stirring, as are a number of replies.

It would be a waste of time asking the Greens (Protest) Party or Socialist Alternative (they are much the same serial activists?) what they would recommend that the Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) should do about Visa overstayers and Non-Citizens working illegally.

However where conservative estimates suggest that the pool of unlawful non-citizens is 60,000 (and could exceed 90,000) most reasonable, thinking citizens would be concerned that DIMIA implemented effective and efficient controls to treat the risks. For instance, that DIMIA cooperates and coordinates with other government authorities with shared concerns, intel and operational capabilities. Examples could be ATO and police.

There is no surprise that the same activists who oppose the highly successful policies that have put the people smugglers out of business and who refuse to accept that refugees in the queue should come first and not be displaced by economic migrants who can pay criminals, are also here opposing actions by DIMIA and other agencies to deter and collar visa overstayers and illegal workers.

You would think that these whining, serial-protestor leftists would realise that not pursuing visa overstayers who break the rules is being damned unfair to the many migrants who do obey the rules and come here legitimately.

otb,

"You would think that these whining, serial-protestor leftists would realise that not pursuing visa overstayers who break the rules is being damned unfair to the many migrants who do obey the rules and come here legitimately."

Nice try...but this whole episode is not about tracking down visa overstayers.

It's about the Abbott regime beefing up immigration into a paramilitary unit - spending over $6 million on new black uniforms - and then (and only then) attempting to deploy them in visible fashion on the streets.

Why did this whole set up occur when it did?

Because that's when the uniforms were up and running. That's when the ABF would have been a fully identifiable adjunct to ordinary police... a sort of Abbott Brown Shirts - except in black.

Sinister and menacing, given time, they would have paraded around picking off this one and that at will - and you can bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't have been singling out the Anglo-Saxons - for "anti-social behaviour and outstanding warrants"

So a ready made harassment machine - on the streets of our cities.

Yep, that's the Australia I grew up in - Not!

What drivel OTB. You couldn't give a damn about the migrants who are already here, and even less about the refugees waiting in the camps overseas.

Any intelligent person knows that Abbott and his merry men (and one lone woman- not a feminist though...thank God!) are all about presenting themselves , to the gullible people who believe such rubbish, as our manly saviors from the marauding Muslim hoards who are out to violently take over Australia.

Abbott and Co. will save us though, by catching these terrorists as they walk around the Melbourne CBD ...carrying 'papers' that show they are terrorists of course.

Poirot,

That is absolute bunkum and you know it.

If there are 60,000 plus Visa overstayers and illegal workers and 20,000 are being added annually, what performance targets would you set and what strategies would you recommend?

Visa over-stayers are at the mercy of employers, crooked employers, that is where the fault lies no TFN no work. Employers that employ persons with no TFN need to be dealt with so overstay does not happen. It shows some employers are rotten to the core just like the Conservative govt;. who can not control their own rules of visa.

I can't wait for the day Abbott declares he is fighting "The never ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way."

Have any of the rabid right posters here applied for a job with Australian Boarder Force, applications close this Sunday, Father's Day, how appropriate, you can fight for 'The Fatherland' and get to carry a gun, and wear a snappy black uniform at the same time, that in itself should appeal to most of you. All that's required is you have your PAPERZ! in order and are willing to attend the "college" for six months.

Thanks Foxy for those links they made for interesting reading. Have to go now there are half a dozen burly looking blokes in black bashing on my door, have to run! Oops where's my papers.

Beach, do you still favor the formation of a paramilitary 'Citizens Militia' which you put forward on the forum previously? It would dove tail nicely with Abbott's Boarder Force. It could assist to restore "law and order" if things should ever get out of hand.

Paul1405,

Your nose will be a metre long. LOL

I said first up that it would be a waste of time asking the Greens (Protest) Party or Socialist Alternative (they are much the same serial activists?) what they would recommend that the Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) should do about Visa overstayers and Non-Citizens working illegally.

There was no need to prove me right.

otb,

"....what strategies would you recommend?"

Well Id recommend any strategy be inside the law for a start.

But Greg Jericho puts it better than I.

"But that was the whole point of the furore: what was being proposed by the ABF was outside the law.

One of the great things about social media is that people from all walks of life use it - including lawyers. And thus it did not take long for lawyers such as Leanne O'Donnell to tweet links to the relevant sections of the Migration Act.

This showed it was clearly outside the ABF's legal bounds to be "speaking with any individual we cross paths with" about the state of their visa or any other matter.

At 12:54pm, the ABF issued a clarification, blaming any misunderstandings on "media reports". It tweeted shortly afterwards, "The ABF does not and will not stop people at random in the streets," which was fine, except that was the exact opposite of what its own regional commander had said it would be doing.

By this point, the crowds in Melbourne were already gathering, but no one from the ABF or from the office of the Minister for Immigration and Border Protection, Peter Dutton, had appeared to explain the situation.

It was this silence that showed that social media was not over-reacting.

This Government has gone out of its way to keep the actions of the Border Force secret. And once again this was the case with the Minister's office immediate response being to state that Operation Fortitude is an "operational matter" and Ministers do not direct ops.

Thus we had a department suggesting that it would be doing something outside the law, and the Minister responsible wanting to say nothing.

Random visa spot checks are no small matter - the Prime Minister recognised as much when he said the media release "was over the top and wrong because we would never stop people randomly in the street demanding their visa details. We don't do that sort of thing in Australia and it will never happen under this Government.""

Etc...

otb,

"I said first up that it would be a waste of time asking the Greens (Protest) Party or Socialist Alternative (they are much the same serial activists?) what they would recommend that the Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) should do about Visa overstayers and Non-Citizens working illegally."

So your suggestion is to start up a govt paramilitary unit - dress them in sinister uniforms and deploy them on the street to randomly harass "foreign looking" people?

Right then....

Here's the link to Greg Jericho's piece.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-31/jericho-social-media-and-the-border-farce/6738140

Reports that some Navy personnel are involved with racist anti-Islam groups have caused alarm. The far right has been reorganising around Islamophobia for some time, writes Andy Fleming

The recent revelation that members of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) responsible for carrying out "Operation Sovereign Borders" are also members or supporters of the anti-Muslim Australian Defence League (ADL) has caused a great deal of embarrassment to the authorities

Abbott has serious leanings toward jack boot tactics. The Boarder force is just another extension of Sovereign boarders.

Poirot,

You were asked the very simple question,

"If there are 60,000 plus Visa overstayers and illegal workers and 20,000 are being added annually, what performance targets would you set and what strategies would you recommend?"

However you ducked it. You like other serial critics have nothing to offer.

As soon as Nazis are called into a discussion you know the posters have no argument, and it doesn't take much more than the mention of Border force to get the fringe whingers goose stepping everywhere.

The operation fortitude organised by the Victorian state police (reporting to Daniel Andrews of Labor) had organised:-

"Metro Trains, Yarra Trams, the Sheriff’s Office, Taxi Services Commission and the ABF will join Victoria Police as part of the inter-agency operation. With a particular focus on people travelling to, from and around the CBD, the group of agencies will work together to support the best interests of Melbournians, targeting everything from anti-social behaviour to outstanding warrants."

With not one mention of stopping people and asking for visas. However, for the pinheads of the twitterati, facts are a pale substitute for their delusions, and instead of the CBD getting a demonstration of police involvement, they got a handful of indigent half wits blocking traffic.

Of course the closest Australia got to a police state was the labor green attempt to impose state censorship on all media.

It is really quite amazing how in this one page the Greens who have not said anything, have been described as, Fascists, Socialists, Socialist alternative and Water melon greens.
It shows how the forces of evil are prepared to smear everybody who is against their ideas of the perfect state and utter hate propaganda to do this.
We seem to be dividing into two camps of extreme right and the "others".

When you see what is happening to refugees in the rest of the World it must be obvious that what is happening here is but a small part of the approaching crisis.
All of the horror unfolding now started from the invasion of the middle east by the Bush, Blair and Howard regime..
None of this would be happening if they had kept out of Iraq and Afghanistan.
It has a long way to go before it is over.

SM,

""Metro Trains, Yarra Trams, the Sheriff’s Office, Taxi Services Commission and the ABF will join Victoria Police as part of the inter-agency operation. With a particular focus on people travelling to, from and around the CBD, the group of agencies will work together to support the best interests of Melbournians, targeting everything from anti-social behaviour to outstanding warrants."

"With not one mention of stopping people and asking for visas...."

Why, in that case, were the ABF involved at all?

But it was mentioned obliquely, as in:

"“ABF officers will be positioned at various locations around the CBD speaking with any individual we cross paths with,” Mr Smith said."

And not so obliquely:

“You need to be aware of the conditions of your visa; if you commit visa fraud you should know it’s only a matter of time before you’re caught out.”"

So SM's argument is instantly blown out of the water.

Lol!...Godwin's Law is invalidated when yer govt forms armed paramilitary units and seeks to deploy them on the streets to harass people.

Hi Paul,

I'm very surprised at how many people on this thread seem to think that this idea would work - of course they don't think it should be implemented, BUT they do seem to think it would work, if it were.

Ask yourself: if you are an Australian citizen, what papers are you required to carry on your person at all times ? None. You can go for a stroll through the city streets on a Sunday afternoon with no papers.

So if somebody is stopped, and simply says, I'm a citizen, bugger off, what could any 'Gestapo' do ? Except, of course, bugger off.

Another point: around half of Australia's population was either born overseas, or has a parent who was. Another 1-2 % in the cities is Indigenous. What are the chances of a mis-directed apprehension ? How does a 'Gestapo' tell the difference between who may not have the right papers, and who doesn't need any at all ?

Try to think an issue through: this one was never going to fly.

Joe

Poirot,

Why was the border force involved? you ask

The BF was only a small portion of the operation organised by Vic Police under the command of the supreme fascist Daniel Andrews, in a continuation of operations that taken place many times before.

At no point in the communique was it mentioned that people would be asked for their visas or passport, which would be useless anyway as no one is required to carry them, which essentially blows your argument right out of the water.

It is typical of the far left whingers to deliberately misinterpret whatever they want, then start howling that they want their delusion stopped, which other than taking Prozac is impossible.

What can we expect next from these pinheads? Claims that random breath tests are racial profiling by paramilitary units.

What a joke.

Poirot,

You accusing the ABF, of swaggering stupidity! Takes one to know one, as they sway. Although, I must say that you are probably unable to swagger and be stupid at the same time.

Hi Joe,

At no time in my original post did I suggest Australia had become a police state, even the title (question) 'Is Australia Ready to Become a Police State?' indicates I do not believe Australia is such now, but there is a possibility in the future that could become a reality. I did use the Nazi's 'Gestapo' which is a infamous example of the excesses of secret police operating under a totalitarian regime, I described Australia as a tolerant liberal democracy, at this time i believe it still is.
My concern is there are indication that we are moving ever slowly away from the liberal democracy and towards something far more sinister and dangerous, recent and past events indicate that is the case.

The Australian Border Force removed about 30 detainees from the Maribyrnong Detention Centre in a raid early on Friday that a witness described as "brutal and intimidating".

A refugee advocate speculated the raid was undertaken to make way for any visa defaulters nabbed in the Melbourne CBD in the infamously cancelled Operation Fortitude.

But that claim was emphatically denied by an Immigration Department spokesman who said the operation was a routine search for unauthorised and illicit contraband.

"The Department can confirm a number of detainees were recently transferred within the detention network, as part of a pre-planned move," said the spokesman.

"The searches conducted at the MIDC on Friday were not linked to the transfers. For operational and security reasons we cannot comment further."

According to one source, a team of up to 70 officers from the ABF, its dog squad and Serco Emergency Response Team swooped on the centre at 2.30am.

They are believed to have woken the detainees, handcuffed them and put them on buses bound for chartered flights.
The men, some of whom are asylum seekers, were then taken to an undisclosed location.

Fairfax Media understands they were en route to Yongah Hill Detention Centre, north-east of Perth, and Christmas Island Detention Centre.
The ABF officers and Serco ERT team then continued to search each of the remaining 90 detainees –including 10 women – and their rooms until 5.30pm on Friday.

The source, who did not want to be named, said there were "distressing scenes" at the centre, with the men "screaming" while being forcibly removed.
The detainees were "terrified" of being taken to Christmas Island as they would be cut off from their friends and family, he said.
"There is an atmosphere of fear and intimidation at the centre now," he said.
"One of the detainees said 'we are treated like dogs'."

On the Beach (where I hope to be soon)

It is worth noting that one does not need to be a citizen to work here lawfully. For example, "Permanent Residents" have the same set of rights as citizens except they cannot vote.

I think that there is still some sort of working holiday visa and of course the specialist worker visas.

...

Thereafter, the right demands a solution to the existing and allegedly growing pool of those who have in some shape or form contravened their visa conditions, if I do not misunderstand?

That, in and of itself, is not an unreasonable demand. But, the question is how to do this, is it not, and herein we find the point of contention from the two opposing poles of the political divide.

..

*NOTE*

The game of politics in and of itself is such that when it comes to swaying the general public disposition this way or that that it seems quite plain that both sides can be accused from time to time of not letting facts get in the way of a good story.

..

So, we can of course look to what is currently being done to identify and apprehend those who have contravened their visa conditions.

One way of course is that when a person attempts to secure employment, the employer has to ensure that the applicants papers are in order. My wife, who graduated more than a year a go and who now is in full time employment did at all times when applying for positions have to provide a great ream of identity and other documents, including her passport and residency papers. The same goes for the education facilities.

Thus, to my way of thinking, when employers are found to be derelict in their duty in this regard (and especially if they are also ripping off or otherwise exploiting their workers) they need to be punished to the extent that few of them anymore are so stupid as to give any serious consideration to doing the wrong thing.

Joe,

"So if somebody is stopped, and simply says, I'm a citizen, bugger off, what could any 'Gestapo' do ? Except, of course, bugger off."

Offensive language, refusing to comply with a lawful request, how's that for starters?

Of course neither would stick but proving one's innocence takes time and money, whereas the prosecution is done at the taxpayers' expense

Hi Paul,

Well, you did answer your own leading question in the affirmative:

'Many think giving up a few liberties is a small price to pay for guaranteed security. How far are some of us prepared to go with this? All the way!'

Dream On,

As far as I can understand you, am I correct in assuming that your wife conducts job interviews on the street ?

To repeat, for those disinclined to think, and as another intelligent poster has pointed out above, seemingly to no avail: if you walk around without any papers, no copper can touch you: you just say you're a citizen, and that would be that.

This whole children's story was never going to get off the ground. Try to think of the consequences. You might as well get all indignant about somebody talking about Green Eggs and Ham.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Is Mise,

Hypothetically, perhaps Mr Andrews' state police might ping you for offensive language (Labor Party members are notorious for their linguistic delicacies), but I don't think the Border Force people would have those sorts of powers. Paul would be relieved.

Joe

Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 12:42:06 PM

" ... As far as I can understand you, am I correct in assuming that your wife conducts job interviews on the street ? ... "

Yeah Joe, I think you have failed to comprehend what I said and might like to have another look.

" ... To repeat, for those disinclined to think, and as another intelligent poster has pointed out above, seemingly to no avail: if you walk around without any papers, no copper can touch you: you just say you're a citizen, and that would be that. ... "

Joe, what you have written here mate is completely incorrect. If an officer of the law requests you identify yourself, then that is what the law requires and to refuse is an arrestable offense. What the individual has to do is state their identity, and then the officer will run you through the now far larger guvment data base and draw his/her own conclusion.

[Deleted for abusive language.]

...
Police are not nice people. Some of them do have their heart in the right place; I played in a marching band for a few years with a decent policeman. But some Policemen are just thugs and bullies who get into the job because they like to wield authority over other people. For these sort of Policemen - who sadly seem to be in the majority - wise-guys who don't kowtow to their authority are the worst sort of criminal (even said wise-guy hasn't technically done anything illegal).

Saying "I'm a citizen, bugger off" or words to that effect is exactly the sort of thing that is likely to infuriate the petty bullies. What the Gestapo can, and will, do is gang up with some of their mates and kick seven kinds of shyt out of you - perhaps tase you if they really don't like the cut of your jib - then defend their actions after the fact with some flimsy pretext about 'resisting arrest' or 'carrying a (non-existent) concealed weapon' or whatever will get them off Scot-free for an assault that would normal citizens before the magistrate on assault & battery charges.

Dream On,

But you don't have to carry papers with you. And as Toni points out in the posts below mine, they have to have some reason to stop you, otherwise it would be profiling. Yes, if you are driving, you have to have your driver's licence on you: I got pinged last week for driving in a wayward manner, changing lanes too many times, and got a caution: fair enough. Luckily, I hadn't started my drinking session at that point.

So let's be clear about this storm in a thimble: nobody has the power to stop you for nothing; you don't have to carry papers with you; unless you are explicitly told that you have been stopped on suspicion of committing an offence, you don't even have to give your name etc.

Sorry to disappoint the pseudo-Left, and others looking for a stick to shove up Abbot's, but no, we're not heading towards a police state. ISIS hasn't taken over yet: you still have your head on your shoulders, your wives and children haven't been raped and shot yet.

Oops, I apologise for causing offence to your new besties :)

Joe

*Dream On*

" ... But you don't have to carry papers with you. ... "

That's correct. And, if you had noted my earlier post, you would have seen that I raised that very point earlier. In any event, we can agree to agree on that.

However, not withstanding *ToniL's* comments, you must recognise that there is some variance across different state jurisdictions. That's the first thing.

The second thing is that I would expect that the statutory authority guvening ABF would be somewhat different to the local state police, and further I would be surprised if that same authority wasn't tailored to enable them to do their job of establishing id.

So, if you were put on the spot and replied:

JLM: " I'm Joe LoudMouth. Ozzie citizen, proud of it and don't hassle
me."

ABF: " Is that so Mr Loudmouth you say. Just one moment Sir."

..

ABF: " So Mr LoudMouth, when were you born? What is your current residential address and what is your phone number? "

..

Of course, if you answered these questions satisfactorily, then you would no doubt be free to go. If not however, and you failed to explain yourself to the satisfaction of the interrogating officer, I suspect that you would land up in the back of the paddy wagon.

We all have our freedoms and the police have a rigid set of rules to follow, but insist on the first and the second may be broken.

Reasonable grounds?

"He reached behind his back, Your Honour, and being apprehensive that he was reaching for a weapon, I hit him".

Passing a note to your defender, because you can't talk properly yet, you deny reaching behind your back but the Magistrate doesn't believe you and hands down a suspended sentence because you appear to be of good character, usually.

SM,

"At no point in the communique was it mentioned that people would be asked for their visas or passport, which would be useless anyway as no one is required to carry them, which essentially blows your argument right out of the water."

Hohoho!....of course there wasn't - it's obvious from this wording that ABF officers planned to use their ESP super powers to glean the status of people as they walked by....

"“ABF officers will be positioned at various locations around the CBD speaking with any individual we cross paths with,” Mr Smith said.

“You need to be aware of the conditions of your visa; if you commit visa fraud you should know it’s only a matter of time before you’re caught out.”"

You write:

"It is typical of the far left whingers to deliberately misinterpret whatever they want, then start howling that they want their delusion stopped, which other than taking Prozac is impossible."

So lets get this straight. Abbott goes to all the trouble and expense of kitting immigration out in shiny black uniforms, bestowing them a brand new title (which sounds like something out of a B-Grade seventies TV show) - as soon as the uniforms are in place, he decides that all that regalia would look great and suitably menacing on the streets - the ABF releases a communique along those very lines...and you say the lefties misinterpreted it.

The only ones who didn't see it for what it was appears to be the extreme far-right, who are ably represented on this forum.

We all know that immigration and police cooperate and work together on occasions. The difference here was Abbott and Co beefing up a department into a paramilitary unit and deploying them on the streets for no good reason except to intimidate.

Interesting that you see that as entirely acceptable.

Hi Poirot,

Yes, hyperbowl sure is fun.

You claim that Abbott is behind all these fascist Gestapo tactics of stopping people on the streets for nothing: I'm surprised you didn't see the CIA connection ? That it's the Yanks behind Abbott behind Quadvliet behind this idiot junior clerk who knocked up this stupid notion ? You're getting soft, Poirot :)

And ask yourself, who's really behind the CIA ? Truly ruly ? Which raises the burning question: where's Arjay ?

Obviously Abbott has made a grievous mistake: in putting into place this fascist policy, (1) he neglected to take direct control of all media outlets first, to prevent anybody raising any objections to it; and (2) he didn't mobilise all his supporters out there to form thuggish militias in order to help the fascist police of the ABF and that other fascist, Andrews.

So what's been the bottom line ? Nothing's happened. We all walk the streets free.

I wonder if the citizens of Mosul could say the same. Now THAT's fascism.

Cheers,

Joe

Poirot, it's a bit like one of those snappy black uniforms coming up to a students face and saying, in a rather loud voice, at point blank range "We have WAYZ and MEANZ of making you COOPERATE! The student replies "Now sir, let me point out the legal ramifications of all this for you." "RAMIFICATIONS, RAM-I-FCATIONS! I will ram the fications up your ###!" "Sorry sir, in that case sir, here is my passport, birth certificate, library card and my entire collection of Batman thingies. hope they help"

Yeah, Loudmouth,

Fancy if we had a PM who day after day, week after week,, positioned himself next to flags and uniforms, shrieked incessantly about "death cults" in some wanna-be attempt to present himself as the leader who's gonna protect his people from all those foreign beasties fighting thousands of miles away.

Just because his stupid shenanigans turned out be half-arsed attempts at priming us to accept his stupid no-policy agenda, doesn't mean we shouldn't recognise them for what they are...the ridiculous machinations of a lying scoundrel who, once his IPA agenda was shot down in flames, had nothing else to offer but flags, fear and uniforms.

Did you catch this latest quarter's growth figures?...0.2% (Greece had 0.8%)...and the only reason we didn't flatline with no growth at all is because of the govt's ramped up defence spending.

"Was it felicitous timing or a happy coincidence?

A surprise 41.5 per cent jump in government spending on defence equipment helped Australia's economy grow by 0.2 per cent for the three months to June."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abbott-government-spending-on-defence-equipment-keeps-economy-growing-20150902-gjdgdw.html

As at last Friday, 28 August 2015, gross government debt was $384.7 billion – the highest level ever recorded. This represents an increase of $111 billion from the level inherited by the Abbott government in September 2013. It is just as well Treasurer Joe Hockey scrapped the debt ceiling legislation early in the Abbott government’s term because he would now be having to introduce legislation to have the ceiling raised beyond $400 billion, a figure that will be exceeded before year end.
All of which makes a mockery of the Coalition’s claims of reducing debt and deficit. It has failed dismally. Or that the level of government debt is at emergency levels and is a disaster for our economy.
We seldom hear those rhetorical flourishes from Mr Abbott or Mr Hockey now days as they know that under their stewardship, debt is certain to exceed $425 billion when the election is called in the second half of 2016 – it might even be $450 billion is the government keeps spending like a drunken sailor and does nothing on the revenue side to pay for it.

Doog,

Thanks for yet another hare brained conspiracy theory from the far side.

Paul,

Your go to point is to refer to the Nazi's at the first opportunity. This flight of fancy is far from your first and unlikely to be your last.

Poirot,

Even when you cut and paste a comment from the description of what the ABF will be doing together with a comment from the end you still spectacularly fail to show that the ABF was proposing to stop people and ask for their visas.

Using your logic:

You don't like black? That's racist of you.

What would you prefer? Brown like the Nazis, Red like the NKVD, Green like the KGB. Pick one.

@DreamOn, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 12:20:49 PM

Thank you for your reply. I hope I have got back to you before that deserved beach vacation.

Yes employers should be required to check ID and so on but it is very much like rental housing, where the unscrupulous who are very likely ethnic themselves take advantage of the (self-imposed) vulnerability of Visa overstayers and those who just want to fade into the population. By way of example, friends who are travelling rented their home to a early forties couple who had teamed up to come to Australia. It later transpired that the couple were sub-letting rooms with multiple bunks and sleeping bags everywhere. Even double-dipping with their lodgers, the beds were never cold. Yes, they had other money-making action going too.

Australians are like innocents abroad. We are so trusting, poorly informed on risks and we don't like to offend by asking for basic documentation. References don't matter any more, documentation is easily concocted, the risk management has to be proactive and practical. The couple mentioned before showed higher study/research grants, all half-truths or bogus. Foreign nationals, they had pulled the same stunts before here and in other countries with various success. Once again they managed to pull the wool over the eyes of Immigration, trusting businesses, helpful members of the public and ATO. -They usually worked as individuals, are very professional at what they do and make very good use of migrant and other advocacy services to check for opportunities. They have damn good stories and make astute use of the Net as a learning network. Any opportunities and lapses by authorities in a country like Australia are on the native drums fast and the response is immediate.

When it comes down to it, authorities depend mainly on citizen-reporting of suspected Visa abusers and on luck through picking them up through a sweep. Only the 'L' Plate fraudsters are at risk of being caught by police.

SM,

"Even when you cut and paste a comment from the description of what the ABF will be doing together with a comment from the end you still spectacularly fail to show that the ABF was proposing to stop people and ask for their visas."

I can't help it if you haven't got the nous to understand what was in the press release....even Abbott worked that one out:

"The Prime Minister said an ABF media release that stated officers would be "speaking with any individual we cross paths with" was "over the top and wrong".

"I want to make it absolutely crystal clear, as far as this Government is concerned, people will never be stopped in the street randomly and asked for their visa details," Mr Abbott told reporters in Sydney."

(Absolutely crystal clear that when you've been caught out trying something on - that you should deny it!:)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-29/abbott-promises-abf-will-never-stop-people-for-visa-checks/6734910

.....and everyone else.

http://www.smh.com.au//breaking-news-national/labor-wants-dutton-to-explain-fortitude-20150830-41w1k.html

Der......

Reality that way ->

Poirot That way <-

Dumbed-down twitterarty sucked in by tabloid reporting.

As if Immigration hasn't been on hand before over the years AND UNDER DIFFERENT GOVERNMENTS when Victorian police have worked with other government agencies, State and federal, at airports, train stations and work sites.

Is it that name 'Border Force' that has upset the luvvies? Labor proposed 'Coast Guard', but Labor's amalgamation would have been horrendously expensive.

In any event, how can the PM be responsible for decisions being taken at middle management level and paperwork probably drafted at a much lower level in the hierarchy? Abbott wouldn't have even know until after the event.

Poirot, thanks for the update on the Abbott Disaster, we should no longer refer to it as a government, as that is an insult to previous governments, disaster is a far more apt description.

Business confidence down, market in free fall, unemployment up, economic growth at almost zero, the Aussie dollar not worth a drachma. The national debt has gone through the roof, as Abbott's 3 ring circus continues to lunge from crises to crises, just note this latest one under circus master Tony Baloney. Where are the 'Usual Suspects' when you need them, they were all for an election when things were relatively good, a couple of years back, where are they now? Come on Silent Minister how about it? This mob has to go, get rid of Tone and his useless sidekick Cocky Joe for starters, agree?

Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 3 September 2015 10:35:34 AM

" ... When it comes down to it, authorities depend mainly on citizen-reporting of suspected Visa abusers and on luck through picking them up through a sweep. Only the 'L' Plate fraudsters are at risk of being caught by police. ... "

Hmmm, I think that when it comes down to it, people need to eat to survive etc

But for those who have contravened their visa conditions, the lawful opportunities for them to earn are closed. If they turn up at Human Services, they're gone for all money.

That leaves cash employment or being harboured by other members of the community. Thus, targeted sanctions against employers who do not do the lawful thing and others who would harbour them is surely part of the answer. And there are already sanctions in place such that if another permanent resident harbours a contravener, then they themselves may also end up getting deported.

However, unscrupulous employers do not appear to face anything so harsh (though I would be pleased to be corrected on that one) and that is something that needs to be rectified.

DreamOn,

Just remember that paid employment is usually small beer and backpackers picking fruit.

Make no mistake that the police and cooperating agencies are much more interested in criminals, esp gangs and other bad types.

otb,

"Dumbed-down twitterarty sucked in by tabloid reporting."

Lol!....journalists tweeted the initial press release - but from then on it was twitter driving the story.

"In any event, how can the PM be responsible for decisions being taken at middle management level and paperwork probably drafted at a much lower level in the hierarchy? Abbott wouldn't have even know until after the event."

Double Lol!....that's not what Tony "the buck stops with me" Abbott had to say when he first took govt.

Excuses, excuses....

As I mentioned, none of it was a surprise. We'd been following the the multi-million dollar splash on "B...B...Border Force" - this was the culmination of Abbott's agenda.

Paul1405
If you have nothing to hide then so what?
Love the black uniforms though
A designers masterpiece.
100% intimidation factor
Did think a gold plated AR15 would have been a great accessary.

Chris,

I have it on 'good authority' that the Force is to be armed with Luger pistol copies (originals are a bit expensive) just to preserve the look of black uniformed smartness.
Officers will be allowed to have silver or nickel plated versions as silver goes well with black but gold is considered to be just a bit ostentatious.

Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 3 September 2015 12:39:31 PM

" ... Just remember that paid employment is usually small beer and backpackers picking fruit. ... "

But that provides a good place to hide, does it not?

" ... Make no mistake that the police and cooperating agencies are much more interested in criminals, esp gangs and other bad types. ... "

And I suspect that that is why ABF has been developed into a more specialised enforcement wing.

..

Still, what are the alternatives to an indiscriminate sweep? And is there really a need? I've heard people claim that there is, but are the ways in which visa contraveners have been dealt with in the past really failing us so badly?

Shadow Minister said "Your go to point is to refer to the Nazi's at the first opportunity. This flight of fancy is far from your first and unlikely to be your last."

Now who has been talking Nazi today, none other than your fearless leader himself, Tony Abbott.

From SMH; <<Backlash after Tony Abbott says Islamic State terrorists are worse than Nazis>>

<<Who can forget the "jobs Holocaust" he claimed Labor had presided over, or his labelling of Bill Shorten as "Dr Goebbels of economic policy" - both slurs quickly withdrawn amid parliamentary uproar.>>

SM I look forward to your comments on have Abbott rates Nazis

Chris, have you put your job application in yet? They close Sunday. With your CV you should be a shoo-in. The snappy black uniform will make a real change from your usual attire, the white bed sheet with the over the head look. LOL

Well I really haven't heard about this ABF until reading this forum now.

So my response might seem ignorant as I don't know much of the facts.

Shadow Minister wrote "Metro Trains, Yarra Trams, the Sheriff’s Office, Taxi Services Commission and the ABF will join Victoria Police as part of the inter-agency operation. With a particular focus on people travelling to, from and around the CBD, the group of agencies will work together to support the best interests of Melbournians, targeting everything from anti-social behaviour to outstanding warrants."

I read all the posts and cant believe anyone hasn't suggested this.

It looks like they are building a transport surveillance grid...
(Or more specifically a response team to make full use of such a surveillance grid)

It also reminds me of ICE in the US (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)

Why would they involve taxis?
trams.. trains?

They all have cameras.

The ABF don't necessarily need to ask anyone's ID if the surveillance grid is already identifying known targets within a database with facial recognition software. I'm talking about people already known to authorities such as people with outstanding warrants and overstayed visa's who already have their photos on file.

The operatives can walk around in nice and friendly mode, and then go into take-down mode once the system identifies a known offender.

I'm only going on whats been written here in this forum.
If this isn't what it is today, this is what it probably soon will be.

This most certainly IS the Police State.
They will start using public transport monitoring systems for the apprehension of any and all wanted people.

Tell me I'm wrong.

What is need on this is a reality check, when it comes to illegal "overstayers" living within Australia. From the SMH December 2014.

The department says an estimated 62,100 people were unaccounted for in Australia during 2014, which is roughly 1.2 per cent of the 5.5 million people who enter the country each year on temporary visas.

Where do they come from? In 2013 by nationality came from China (7690), Malaysia (6420), the US (5220) and the UK (3780). I suspect the high number of Chinese and Malays may be many students who overstay and the Americans and Brits backpackers who go beyond their temporary visa. Many may well eventually voluntarily return home. On top of new arrivals there are to quote the national president of the Migration Institute of Australia, Angela Chan, "They may have been here for 20 years and you know, have just forgotten to do something about their visas. And they have now become a substantial part of the community, they are employed and they have connections here."
Given what is known about overstayers is Abbott and Dutton overstepping the make with their poorly paid, under trained, paramilitary Australian Boarder Force? I think so.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/the-australian-border-force-recruitment-drive-what-australias-newest-security-agency-is-looking-for-in-new-recruits-20150830-gjbb2k.html

Armchair Critic,
It already exists and has for a long time.
John Anderson (ex MP) created it and I think it was called The Australian Transport Authority
I am searching my record for the story so stay tuned.
Somebody filed it under 'conspiracies'

Armchair Critic,
Scrub that name: The Australian Transport Authority
It was: Office of Transport Security Organization and according to Canberra it doesn't exist and never did.
Office of Transport Security

Minister; John Anderson


Andrew Tongue; (FAS) Head of Dept
Judy Chandler; (EA) Dep Head of Dept

Governance

Sandra Dilley; (Dir)


Maritime Security; John Kilner (AS) Judy Chandler (EA

Maritime Security Policy
- Helen Dorning

Maritime Assessment and Review
- Patricia Georgee

Maritime Security Capability Building
- David Harrod (A/g)

Security Identification
- Patricia Liubesic

Security Analysis
- Tony Beard

International Relations
- Lance Thomas

Regional and Freight Security; Vicki Dickman(AS) Hannah Lukasiak (EA)

Freight Security
- Winton Brocklebank

Regional Airports and General Aviation
- Julie Fox

Transport Strategy
- Sharon Ronald (A/g)

Regional Airline Security
- Andrew Lalor

Aviation Security; Andy Turner (AS) Carolyn Shelper (EA

Aviation Security Capability Building
- Rita Parker

Compliance Operations (Aviation)
- Mike Frazer

Security Standards
- Leigh Crutchley

Legislation Implementation
- Darren Crombie

Aviation Security Programs
- Steve Dreezer

National Audit and Compliance Reform
- Tony Mazzer

Paul1405,

Your 'reality check' didn't include the concerns and reviews by previous governments OF BOTH PERSUASIONS and one with Greens sidekicks (Gillard), that were concerned to control Visa overstayers and others with an interest in fading into society.

Your outrage is bollocks. Police State? It is just the Greens and other serial activists trying to draw attention to themselves to get cheap headlines, or any exposure at all.

Hi ChrisGaff1000,
I don't know anything about the Office of Transport Security Organisation or even anything about the Australian Border Force for that matter.

But one can assume where technology and security are headed, and read between the lines of what was said.

I suspect that they didn't plan for so much backlash, which is why they are making a big deal out of the "clumsy comment".
I suspect they intended to carry out operation, catch a heap of baddies, parade with news headlines about what a success the operation was and continue to implement their agenda.

It was things like 'taxis', and people with 'outstanding warrants' and were not going to ask people for ID.

Why do they need use-of-force and deadly-force (gun)if they are just targeting visa over-stayers??

They aren't going to identify people with outstanding warrants by asking them, because people will just give false info.

So they are going to identify people using other methods.

By using automated facial recognition software they can take all the people out from in front of the security screens and put them out on the beat.

This is a public transport related operation.
The only thing I didn't see as part of the grid was buses and vic-roads.

These new guys can take the job of picking up wanted people away from police so police can focus on police work.

This is going to be like a response team to people located on public transport.

This is going to be one step short of intercepting and black-bagging wanted individuals and throwing them into a van.. They are putting an immigration spin on it, but obviously they intend to incorporate it with general domestic police duties as well otherwise they wouldnt have mentioned people with outstanding warrants.

Just my uninformed guess.

Paul,

At last you admit that you are far worse than Abbott. In the last few months you have climbed into your jack boots and used Nazi references many times wrt the liberals and the new border force, yet can only find TA comparing ISIS that routinely hold mass executions to the Nazis which is in my opinion completely valid.

Armchair critic,

As for the visa over stayers, that is the ultimate furphy. From what I remember about 90% are visitors that overstay their visa but leave soon after. Those that stay get no free health, education nor housing and cost the government nearly nothing.

Paul,

I'm sure that you and other Greens will join with me in condemning Tony Abbott's authoritarian banning of the Adler Lever-action shot gun.
This temporary banning of a lawfully imported and fully legal gun by Prime Ministerial decree goes against all that the Greens purport to stand for and against the rule of law.
The Government has now backed off, but for how long?
http://davidleyonhjelm.com.au/senator-leyonhjelms-statement-on-the-adler-shotgun-ban/

SM,

"At last you admit that you are far worse than Abbott. In the last few months you have climbed into your jack boots and used Nazi references many times wrt the liberals and the new border force, yet can only find TA comparing ISIS that routinely hold mass executions to the Nazis which is in my opinion completely valid."

Of course it would be "valid" in your opinion....you snuggle up to Abbott's vacuous rubbish all the time.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/04/the-nazis-ashamed-abbotts-third-reich-comparisons-are-not-gaffes?CMP=share_btn_tw

"At one level, the comparison could be read as simply cynical, condescending and lazy. It’s another attempt to scare people so they come running for Daddy and elect the Coalition, with its perceived strength on national security.

But it’s also infantilising, because it presumes the public has no broad historical awareness.

Isis are barbarous rapists and murderers, who may yet play a role in wiping out Christianity and a number of ethnocultural groups in the areas they control. But there’s also no comparison between the threat they present and that of Nazi Germany.

The Nazis converted a major democracy with a sophisticated industrial economy into a war machine. By the time the Final Solution began in earnest, they had conquered Europe – and its major powers – from the English Channel to the Caucasus, and had soldiers from Norway to North Africa.

This scale and the machinery of an advanced state is what enabled them to carry out industrial-scale extermination as well as opportunistic murder. Isis, by comparison, are opportunistic gangsters visiting further ruination on two failed states, and trying to jerry-rig their own state machinery in the rubble.

The west’s role in creating the conditions that led to it, and our incompetence in dealing with the consequences, should not lead us to overstate their capacities.

What’s more, the Holocaust was a state secret not because, as Abbott claimed, the Reich was ashamed of its actions, but because they didn’t want anyone interfering with their ongoing genocide."

More pathetic waffle from Abbott - a midget on the world's stage - who's turning rhetorical somersaults in his bid to find a war.

Hi Poirot, your above post is the best one on this entire thread, most thoughtful, and it shows your knowledge on the subject, pity Abbott does not share your understanding.

From the SMH;

Australia's peak Jewish group has rounded on Prime Minister Tony Abbott for suggesting Islamic State terrorists are in some ways worse than the Nazis.
Executive Council of Australian Jewry president Robert Goot said Mr Abbott's comparison of the Islamic State and Nazi Germany was "injudicious and unfortunate".

The Nazis did terrible evil but they had a sufficient sense of shame to try to hide it.

But hours later Mr Abbott said: "I stand [by] what I said, not by the interpretation that other people might want to put on it."

Saying; "The Nazis did terrible evil but they had a sufficient sense of shame to try to hide it."

Can be interpreted as saying "The Nazis were bad, but underneath there was some good in them, after all they did try to hide what they had been doing."

Is there a doctor in the house! Abbott has contracted 'Foot In Mouth' once again!

G'day Is Mise and others, so the gun happy brigade have had some kind of victory, you say. They can now do their favorite Rambo impersonations with this pump action shot gun, that should clear the bus stops! You have also won the praise of that phony senator from NSW David Leyonhjelm, who won office by deception, presenting himself as a liberal democrat when he is no such thing. I have no respect for such a gutless charlatan who is to weak to honestly represent himself to the people, and care nothing of what he says.

Shadow, Tony Abbott is Basil Fawlty without the mustache "Listen, don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right." No you didn't Tone!

Thanks, Paul, although the body of that post was an article quote - with which I'm in full agreement.

Here's an in depth analysis of Border Force:

http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/immigration/2015/09/05/inside-border-forces-power/14413752002322

"What has changed, rapidly and profoundly, is the raison d’être of the Immigration Department. Its DNA has been forsaken. First is its abandonment of historical focus – that of the settlement and integration of refugees, a focus that has happily distinguished Australia from much of the world. “There was a range of things the department once did – for example, Harmony Day, humanitarian settlement, multiculturalism,” a source says. “All these are stripped from Immigration now. Broadly, there has been very little promotion of multicultural policy by this government...."

"Mike Pezzullo – Mr Secretary – oversees a dramatically militarised department, one that functions with increasing secrecy. There is now a command and control system; its senior bureaucrats wear military tunics. Long-term public servants, asked to exchange policy for army salutes, have left. About a quarter of senior executives are gone. Remaining immigration staff are now the beta tribe to the big dogs of Border Force, creating internecine angst, while the media team field daily questions about abuse exercised in their name."

"“They’ve cut down on the sharing of information,” a source says. “A lot. And there are now many physically quarantined places in the building at Belconnen. There used to be just one area that if someone who wasn’t authorised to be there – like, they were employed by the department but were visiting that particular work station – then people would call out ‘Stranger on the floor’ and that was a sign to stop talking and clear your desk of anything sensitive. Well, now there are many such areas.”"

Etc....

Paul,

First, it's not a pump action shotgun but a lever action gun, this type has been legal in Australia since the first ones were imported in the 1890s, over 100 years ago.
Are you not concerned at the arbitrary actions of the PM?

Why would he want to ban a particular brand, the Adler, when it's use and ownership comply with Australian law?

One would have thought that the Greens would be leaping to the defence of the importer and his customers who had already paid deposits.
Let the Govt. get away with this and what might be next?
Don't the Greens believe in defending the rights of Australians who comply with the law?

Storm in a tea-cup.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-13/adler-shotgun-importation-ban-to-be-lifted-after-leyonhjelm-deal/6694586

Lever action shotguns. As far as I remember, there has never been a lever-action shotgun until recently, and I started shooting 57 years ago. Also as far as I remember, when Howard introduced his draconian anti-gun laws you could not own a semi-automatic or pump-action rifle, only bolt-actions or lever-actions. I believe that lever-action rifles are still legal, and you can buy them in centre-fire calibres lethal up to 1,000 metres.

A shot gun, even loaded with 00 buckshot or SG shot, which is used to kill lions at close range, would not give you a tickle at 100 metres. So, if you can have a deadly lever-action rifle, why not a lever-action shotgun? Once again, we are dictated to by people who don't know their backsides from their elbows.

And for all you knee-jerkers who talking about a "police state" now, you are looking in the wrong direction too late. The first rule for a dictatorship is: DISARM THE POPULATION. Australia has already started, and there is talk, right now, of extending bans.As a law abiding citizen who shot mainly targets but who no longer has a firearms permit through choice, I would have no hope of getting one again.

ttbn,

Winchester introduced their lever action shotgun, the Model 1887, in 1887
and I believe that the first ones were imported into Australia after 1889, at least the earliest one that I've seen here was made in that year.

I bought my first M.1887 from Smith's Sports Store in Sydney way back in about 1956, they were rather a clumsy gun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1887/1901

Unless you've done something drastic there is no reason why you should be refused a Firearms Licence, many people are taking up the sport of target shooting with rifle, pistol or shotgun again, and anew, as it's one of (if not) the safest sports and men and women, boys and girls can all compete on a level playing field, age and gender make no difference.

Is Mise, i have to agree guns don't discriminate men and women, boys and girls, can all die at the point of a gun!

"lethal up to 1,000 metres". ttbn is that lethal to humans, odd how the gun happy brigade are quick to say they have no interest in the killing of their fellow man, but are just as quick to say what the lethal human range is for their guns.

//many people are taking up the sport of target shooting with rifle, pistol or shotgun again, and anew//

Sport? Come off it, if target shooting counts as a real sport so do darts, ten-pin bowling, snooker and rhythmic gymnastics.

Toni Lavis & Paul1405,

LOL, ignorant metropolitan Greens.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain

Here you go Whingers, proving there is life outside of paying urban baristas too much for vanilla soy bean latte,

<Laura Coles has won gold in the women's skeet to claim Australia's first shooting medal of the Commonwealth Games.
The 27-year-old exercise physiologist shot 14 out of 16 targets in the gold medal shoot-off against Wales' Elena Allen, who missed three shots to finish with silver on Friday.>
http://www.theage.com.au/commonwealth-games-glasgow-2014/commonwealth-games-news/laura-coles-claims-commonwealth-shooting-gold-20140726-zx327.html

<Department of Primary Industries Agricultural Protection Officer, Suzy Balogh, is the first Australian woman to win an Olympic shooting gold medal.

Balogh, 31, won gold in the Olympic women's trap shooting in Athens yesterday.

Normally based in Orange, Balogh worked out of the DPI's Queanbeyan office in the lead-up to the Athens Olympics so she could fulfil training commitments.
She led from the second round of the preliminaries and through the final, claiming victory with an overall score of 88, four ahead of her nearest rival.>
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/archive/news-releases/general/26/suzy_wins_gold

Just a few examples of many.

International [ISSF] competition - 2015 calendar
http://www.issf-sports.org/calendar.ashx

That's not the point Paul,
the point is the PM's arbitrary banning of something, in this case a gun, that is legal in this country; do you support such arbitrary action by Tony Abbott and if so why?

Poirot,

That was probably the most feeble logic I have ever seen. We all know that ISIS are not German nor are they invading Russia, but their penchant for genocide and execution of people based on race, gender and religion, compares closely with the SS of the Nazis. And if you cannot see that, your intellectual faculties are even weaker than I suspected.

Secondly, while I understand that the greens think that ISIS is all the west's fault and that they are not responsible for their own actions, and the hacking off of peoples heads is a sign of their inner angst at being victims of western capitalism, the fact is that they originated in Syria where the West was not involved, and their psychopathic tendencies are entirely their own.

Poirot,

I looked up your link to the Saturday Paper, and I was not disappointed. Where do you find these collections of losers.

The Saturday paper is yet another one man blog with a string of polemics written by the "chief" or only correspondent who rehashes the same theme every week with articles that are refreshing free of any research.

These blogs to which you keep referring are manned by pinheads that like to play journalist, but whose skills are suitable only for serving fast food. I guess the excrement they post is a result of their resentment of many years of being ignored, either that or having been dropped on their heads as children.

What's your point, OTB? Rhythmic gymnastics is an Olympic event and I've already indicated that I don't think it counts as proper sport. That goes for synchronised swimming, dressage and shooting too.

The only events that involve shooting and count as proper sport in my book are the pentathlon from the Summer games and the biathlon from the Winter games.

At one time both bear baiting and cock Fighting were considered sports, more recently Is Mise has demonstrated his support on the forum for the barbaric pursuit of greyhound racing as a legitimate sport, it must be the destruction of those poor woodland creatures that appeals to him. Next thing I know he will be telling me how much he enjoys watching bikini clad women partaking of that exciting "sport" of jelly wrestling down at his local on a Friday night!

As for Tony Abbott, Is Mise, he is well known for his so called captains calls, this must be another one, at least full of good intentions. Should direct your question to Shadow Minister he is a sicko-phantic supporter of Tony Baloney not me.

Beach, as a avid supporter of a paramilitary citizens militia, I can fully understand where you are coming from on this topic, the basement headquarters of Jim Saleam and Australia First in Tempie Sydney they think just like you.

Poirot, thanks for that well researched article in 'The Saturday Paper' by the outstanding journalist Martin McKenzie-Murray a former Canberra speechwriter and advisor to the Chief Commissioner of Victoria Police. It makes a refreshing change from the rubbish published in the Murdoch fish wrappers Shadow is always posting.

Toni Lavis,

You are showcasing your ignorance and unreasoning bigotry. You are thinking only of those sports that involve large muscle movements. You would regard weightlifting, shot put and javelin as sports, I assume? What about cricket, the 'flanneled fools' who stand for hours in the Australian sun?

Not everyone is equipped for, nor interested in such sports but they do have a place. I competed for years and represented two States in several sports, where my greatest enjoyment was surf ironman and surf ski. However I was advantaged by inherited physical features for instance height and by my living environment which was close to facilities and a good clubs.

It is possible that more women than men might enjoy the discipline, ballet and finer judgement of rhythmic gymnastics. They are right to have sports they enjoy.

Shooting is possibly the only sport that is truly non-discriminatory and easily accessible at low cost for recreation. All are welcomed and coaching is free. You compete against yourself. There is no pressure to compete or win. It is absolutely safe. It is easy to try out, individually or in groups, just by ringing the nearest SSAA, city or town.

http://www.shootingaustralia.org/in-sport/paralympicprogram.htm

Paul,

Ducking for cover as usual, and I didn't support live bait training of greyhounds, in fact exactly the opposite, but I'll forgive your memory slip.
Why do you think that Tony had the best of intentions in banning the Adler?
Why ban it at all?

That link again,

http://www.shootingaustralia.org/in-sport/paralympicprogram.html

Of course the good thing about shooting sports is that you are among civil, law-abiding and reputable citizens, men and women from all walks of life and many retired as well. A good social time out among people where status and so on are irrelevant.

This will be common place in Australia if the pro gun lobby get their way.

Dolan Springs, Arizona: An instructor at a shooting range in Arizona has died after a nine-year-old girl shot him in the head with an Uzi sub-machinegun he was showing her how to use.

Shooting is the only "sport" that if you don't like your opponent you can shoot him dead. Talk about bad sportsmanship!

I Paul,

You suggest that "Shooting is the only "sport" that if you don't like your opponent you can shoot him dead."

Of course, you're right: in boxing and wrestling, one does not have immediate access to a firearm.

Since you put this thread up, I'm presuming that you have some concerns about Australia becoming - or already being - a police state. A bit like, say, Putin's Russia, or Assad's Syria, or Xi's China, or under ISIS - is that what you had in mind ?

I admire your courage, putting up posts alerting us to the dangers around us, and braving the knock on the door at 3 a.m., for the good of the rest of us. Do you reckon you could get away with some of your comments in those other jurisdictions ?

We all need heroes, and if you are marched away, never to be heard of again, put through a mincing machine like in Saddam's Iraq or dropped out of a plane over the ocean like in Argentina or beheaded or burnt alive as in We-all-know-where, rest assured that I, for one, will remember you.

Best of luck,

Joe

Paul1405 brings a reality to Otto that surpasses Kevin Kline's acting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5IQnQhzMSI

The Greens Senators need the dupes who serve to put them in those comfy seats.

Hi OTB,

Yes, perhaps what is needed is some sort of elementary political guide-book for children - and also an 'Idiot's Guide to Useful Idiots' for those who have accidently become adults.

Maybe, Paul, you could write the early chapters ?

Joe

I'm not a supporter of guns, but I must that Paul appears a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic when he writes such crap. What is clear is that Paul has no clue about shooting or sport in general.

"Shooting is the only "sport" that if you don't like your opponent you can shoot him dead. Talk about bad sportsmanship!" probably takes the cake. What about archery, or even the javelin, or for that case what's stopping a gymnast shooting a rival?

Just recently we had the half wit dinner tally claiming that ISIS were only bit players in Syria, and that taking out this murderous organisation which was the cause of many refugees fleeing was going to make things worse. This comes from the same fevered thinking that thinks EMOs are threatening because they dress in black.

Toni,

Care to tell us why you don't consider target shooting to be a sport?

Paul,

When you talk about fascist state methods do you also consider:
NSW Greens' policy
"24. Regular unannounced checks by police or another enforcement body to ensure that individuals and clubs are abiding with firearm storage regulations;"

Do the Greens prefer that this be done in the middle of the night?

Don't throw stones, Paul, glass houses and all that.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Seeing as you brought up the topic of archery,
and the javelin as sports. What about fencing
which is quite popular as well? And there's heaps
more sports where "weapons" are used - even for
example - martial arts, and boxing would probably
qualify in certain cases. However out of all these
sports - how high are the statistics of people actually
being killed by these "weapons," when compared to guns?

Look at the United States - where gun control virtually
does not exist. How high are the stats there.
God Bless America!

Fox, "United States - where gun control virtually does not exist"

BS and a false comparison anyhow as you would be well aware. Then again maybe it still hasn't sunk in that the US gun crime is hugely black on black, gangs and drugs.

Fox, "However out of all these sports - how high are the statistics of people actually being killed by these "weapons," when compared to guns?"

Comparing the sport of shooting and local and international competition combined, I would dare say that the deaths of competitors while competing (include training too if you like) would be vastly higher in (say) cycle riding, hurdles or even weightlifting. I son't know of any injuries and certainly no deaths involving competition involving firearms.

Of course you are trying to conflate the legitimate recreational and sporting use of firearms with the ferals and gangs who unlawfully obtain and use firearms.

That is the deceit of 'gun control' - the alleged few moonlighting public servants in Australia are so secret squirrel as to conceal even the very basic information about themselves and their political and overseas links. For instance, with that billionaire currency dealer the French court found to be illegally trading and who is alleged to be behind leftist activism in the US and other countries. Now what would a billionaire currency dealer gain from that?

According to United Nations data compiled by The
Guardian's Simon Rogers:

Homicides by firearm per 1 million people.

In advanced countries according to the Human Development
Index. Numbers are for 2012:

Australia - 1.4
New Zealand- 1.6
Germany - 1.9
Austria 2.2
Denmark - 2.7
Netherlands - 3.3
Sweden - 4.1
Finland - 4.5
Ireland - 4.8
Canada - 5.1
Luxembourg - 6.2
Belgium - 6.8
Switzerland - 7.7
United States - 29.7

Why does the United States have so many gun homicides than other
advanced countries?
One possible answer is that Americans own much more guns than
their peers around the world. And empirical research shows places
with more guns have more homicides.

Mass-shootings are increasing according to the UNODC Small arms
survey, via The Guardian.

It is disturbing that in the United States if someone asks about
movie theatre shootings. The first response is -
which one?

Here are more stats taken from the web:

"It is pretty hard to count up all the guns in the
US - especially given how varied different states'
licensing and
registration policies are. A 2012 Congressional
Research Service Report estimated that there
were 310 million civilian guns in
2009, 114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million
shotguns. The Small Arms Survey, which measures gun
prevalence internationally estimated that there were 270 million
in 2007. The latter estimate suggests that there were 88.8 guns
for every 100 people in the United States in 2007, there were
about 307 million people in the US in 2009, which would mean
the Congressional Research Service estimated there were more
guns than people in America."

As I stated previously - God Bless America.

Fox,

You are fooling yourself, not anyone else.

You could put a million firearms in the hands of one law-abiding citizen and there are many thousands of such licensed law-abiding citizens in Australia, and be well assured that NO crime would even be committed.

You deliberately disgrace them when you conflate their licensed firearm ownership and legal, appropriate use with ferals and drug-dealing gangsters who would never get a licence even if they tried (and would likely be collared instead for an outstanding warrant).

I am advised that the female form of Otto is Ottilie. So don't feel left out, you do share something more with Paul1405 than being joined at the hip politically and applauding each other. You would be rocked to realise that.

Dear Foxy,

Just to stick my oar in: are you suggesting that there is some connection between recreational shooting and guns on the streets ? Maybe one way around some of the problems may be to somehow restrict gun-use precisely to shooting schools, ranges and galleries, with no gun to be removed. Of course, the horse has bolted well and truly over there, so I really am whistling into the wind. Sorry :(

Love,

Joe

"Maybe one way around some of the problems may be to somehow restrict gun-use precisely to shooting schools, ranges and galleries, with no gun to be removed"

That still manages to conflate the unlawful possession and use by some with the lawful recreation and sports of the majority who have nothing to do and abhor the ferals and crims. In Australia the small number of crimes involving firearms are overwhelmingly committed by the drug gangs and specifically the OMG bikies that the Greens and Labor protect. -See the recent developments in Queensland where the successful anti-bikie laws are being given the 'deep six' treatment by Labor Premier Palaszczuk.

Cars are much far more essential to crime than firearms. When steering locks were installed on motor vehicles there was a sudden and permanent drop in crime in Australia.

Lock up all cars and use public transport with a national identify card to board and alight?

Some figures on mass shootings in the U.S:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

Looks like people who get their guns legally do kill people. Mass shootings are only a fraction of the total homicide rate and more people might be killed with illegal guns in the U.S. - but it seems that people with legal firearms are more likely to commit mass shootings.

Some of you might also be interested to note that about three quarters of these shooters were white.

Foxy,

In fencing swords are used, in parts of the world people are being murdered with swords, so by your reasoning we should equate fencing and those that practice it with ISIS or other murderous groups.

By the way, darts were weapons of war and one variety are still used and you forgot to mention the discus, a truly fearful weapon.

On a per participant basis far more people have been injured by javelin throwing as a sport than have been injured in the sporting shooting disciplines.
Here's a recent javelin incident in which an official was killed.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/29/javelin-toss-goes-horribly-wrong-referee-dies-after-being-speared/

Here's some interesting statistics from the USA

"Unintentional
Firearms Fatalities at All-time Low
Data released by the National Safety Council demonstrates that
unintentional firearm-related fatalities continue to remain at
historically low levels. In fact, in the last two decades the number
of unintentional firearm-related fatalities has declined by 58 percent
– from 1,441 unintentional fatalities in 1991 to 600* in 2011.
Firearms are involved in ½ percent of all unintentional fatalities in the United States. In a side-by-side comparison, firearms rank among
the lowest causes of injury."
http://www.nssf.org/pdf/research/iir_injurystatistics2013.pdf

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

The US certainly has serious issues with guns.
We lived and worked in the US for close to ten years
and we had a relative in the LAPD. Most other
countries severely restrict private handgun ownership,
however as you can see from the stats given earlier
there are millions of handguns in the US - and weapons
of this type are used in more than half of the tens of
thousands of murders that occur each year.
The average handgun rate as shown was many, many, times
the average rate for Sweden,
Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Austria,
Denmark, Netherlands, Finland, Ireland, Canada, Belgium,
and so on.

We might well ask why does the US permit a widespread access
to handguns? One reason is the persistent belief that,
since criminals have guns, law-abiding people need them for
self-protection. Actually, gun-owning households are much
more likely to suffer fatalities from their own weapons than
from those of outsiders.
Several studies have shown that only a small percentage of
all slayings in gun-owning households were for self-
protection; the remainder were suicides, homicides, or
accidental deaths, almost all involving family members,
friends, or acquaintances.

A second reason for the proliferation of handguns is the
belief, deeply held by many Americans, that gun ownership is
an individual right. And of course the third reason is that
the gun-lobby in the US is extremely powerful.

For granting this liberty to the individual, American society
pays the price in the deviance of those who abuse it.

See you on another discussion. For me this one has now
run its course.

Toni Lavis,

As you admit yourself, mass killings are rare (but sensationalised and continually replayed by the media) and account for a tiny fraction of the injuries and deaths from violence in the US. That is not even taking into account the numbers injured and killed by knives, baseball bats (loved by black gangs) and other means.

From your link, the information seems suspect to say the least. For example, "We have updated this database with the mass shooting at a military center in Chattanooga, Tennessee". The crimes were committed by a Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez. If you know that the particular guns he used were obtained legally you had better inform the FBI who do not say that at all.

This fellow,

<immediately after the shooting, Abdulazeez’s father apologized for the damage his son had done. “He was distraught,” Issa said. “His voice was broken, and he said he was very sorry for what his son caused to the community of Chattanooga and the Islamic community here.”

Issa wondered if Abdulazeez had been radicalized during his several trips to Jordan, the last in 2014 when he was in the region for seven months.

“It has to be the overseas trip that caused this,” he said. “That’s the only thing I can figure out.”>

Combined with his diagnosed depression and other erratic behaviour he is not someone who would be allowed a licence here, ever.

Multiple homicides are linked to media sensationalising prior incidents.

In Australia there was a brief period of time where a number occurred. An absence of such incidents before and after.

Why that is so is not known. But it challenges the over-simplification (and ineffectiveness) of 'gun control'.

For example it could have had to do with inflammatory statements in the media by gun control activists who made such offences 'sexy' and newsworthy at the time.

How to explain the Hilton Hotel bombing by Evan Pederick (one dead but hundreds were targets); the mass killings, human and animal and destruction of property by arsonists lighting bushfires; or the Whiskey Au G Go multiple homicides in Brisbane?

Man Haron Monis, the Sydney siege gunman
entered the Lindt Café with a hidden gun.
The inquest heard Monis's 1950s-era shotgun
was easily acquired shortly before the siege.

Things could be much worse in this country if
guns were as freely available in this country
as they are in the US.

Foxy,

Why didn't our stringent gun laws stop Monis?

The Lyndt Cafe siege was a massacre in the making and not one of those hostages had anyway of defending themselves.

// "We have updated this database with the mass shooting at a military center in Chattanooga, Tennessee". The crimes were committed by a Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez. If you know that the particular guns he used were obtained legally you had better inform the FBI who do not say that at all.//

Not according to CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/17/us/tennessee-naval-reserve-shooting/

"Abdulazeez had a handgun and two long guns in his possession when police in the Tennessee city killed him Thursday, and another rifle was seized when police searched his home, the official said.

The 24-year-old engineering graduate wore a "load-bearing vest" that allowed him to carry extra ammunition, said Ed Reinhold, special agent in charge of the regional FBI office.

It does not appear that the weapons were purchased recently, the law enforcement official said. Reinhold said earlier Friday that "some of the weapons were purchased legally and some of them may not have been."

Toni,

Funny thing was that that particular shooting was on a military base and no one was armed, seems that soldiers in the US are not allowed to be armed.

Hi Joe,

Possibly you did not read my opening post when I said "We (Australians) pride ourselves on being a tolerant liberal democracy."

"I (Joe) admire your courage, putting up posts alerting us to the dangers around us, and braving the knock on the door at 3 a.m.
Such cynicism is beneath you, but feel free.

Those sitting comfortably in their easy chair, saying "it can't happen here", are deluding themselves. Things can change, and yes given the right circumstances a tolerant liberal democracy can change overnight to become a Putin's Russia, or Assad's Syria, or Xi's China, or under ISIS or something else.
For sometime governments of both persuasions have been making small changes to Australia in the name of "security", some of those changes have been necessary, but there is a balance which needs to be maintained. Abbott's over use of words like "death cult" feed the fears of ordinary people, and conditions them into accepting other "necessary" changes to their freedoms and liberties.

Joe, the gun issue was introduced to the thread by me old sparing partner on the subject Is Mise, and I always feel obliged to answers his concerns on such matters.

'Idiot's Guide to Useful Idiots', again Joe I'll leave that in your incapable hands. Maybe Beach can write the foreword for your
book.

Hi Foxy,

Some interesting stats you have posted, can you change that 29.7 figure for the USA to say 2.7 its never a comfortable stat for the pro gun lobby. Beach has previously expressed his support on the forum for a paramilitary well armed citizens militia, masquerading as a family fun shooters club, no doubt with people such as himself calling the shots. Given the rabid postings on here of the pro gun clique it is easy to understand why no one should be allowed to carry such an offensive weapon as a firearm, to dangerous!

//seems that soldiers in the US are not allowed to be armed//

Of course they aren't, Is Mise. Check out this picture of various uniforms worn by American soldiers:

http://i.imgur.com/Nldz4oD.jpg

Those things that look like rifles? They're just military-issue B.S. Detectors, which are the standard equipment of all US soldiers since B.S. Johnson of Sitka, Alaska, invented the device in 1863. Prior to that American soldiers had to make to do with replica B.S. Detectors fashioned from balsa wood and polystyrene and painted to look like the real thing.

So now it's 'Levity' Lavis?
Care to explain why the police had to be called to the army base and why it was they that shot the gunman?

Paul,

Anything on those unannounced Green sanctioned calls by the police on law abiding citizens who have been judged to be of good character by the Police Commissioner?

onthebeach
Had a bit to do with the Hilton thing back then
Pederick was a police informer with a very dubious record.
We locked the wrong people up for that one although we later admitted it but couldn't bag the ASIO people,

We all know the police did the Whiskey Go Go thing. John Andrew was one of my Sydney snitches and a scapegoat.
Why would you parole and deport someone who allegedly committed such a horrible crime after a relatively short time in the clink if it wasn't to shut down the show.

Is Mise, I am both comfortable and supportive of Greens policy on this, and firearms policy in general. As I have answered your questions, I have one for you concerning;

An instructor at a shooting range in Arizona has died after a nine-year-old girl shot him in the head with an Uzi sub-machinegun he was showing her how to use the weapon.

Who do you consider at fault, assuming you consider someone at fault? To make it easy multi choice.

(A) The instructor for putting his big head in the road.
(B) The 9 year old girl for being so stuiped in not knowning how to use a sub-machinegun
(C) The fools in government who allow such lax'd laws that puts an horrific weapon in the hand of a child.
(D) Other, please explain your answer.

Take your time i am sure the answer requires a lot of thought. Waiting.

Dear Paul,

It is a bit disturbing when people fight over who can
be allowed to have a marriage licence but don't give a
shyte about who can have an assault rifle.

Fox,

You and Paul1405 are joined at the hip politically, so there is no surprise that you would be trying to support, even out-do his outrageous claim that Australia has become a 'Police State'.

You are the poster who wasted pages asserting that 'Schoolies' were more dangerous than the outlaw bikies and their violence on the Gold Coast.

At the time the bikies' violence and fights over drug territory, had spilled over to brawls in family restaurants and the bikies surrounding a police station, holding the police hostage and threatening theirs and their families' lives if they didn't set a bikie free.

You also defend Labor Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk MP, who along with the Greens promised before the Qld election to 'deep six' the police-supported, highly successful anti-bikie law and is now doing so. Meanwhile foreign gangs for instance the 'Black Power' bikies from NZ have moved their operations to Queensland.

otb,

At no time have I ever asserted that that schoolies
are more dangerous than bikie gangs. That is absolute
nonsense. That particular discussion was as I recall
about violence on the Gold Coast - and what hotel
owners were doing in preparation for schoolies week
to protect their properties as a result of damage
done by schoolies in the past.

As for the law Review undertaken by the current Queensland
government - that was explained fully as to why this
initiative was undertaken by the Attorney-General.

You need to read what people say not what you think they
say.

You need to stop your ad hominem attacks that try to negate
opinions by alleging negatives about people supporting
those opinions. This is a technique used by trolls on
the web. It's time you changed your technique. Otherwise
the assumption will be that you are indeed nothing more
than a troll.

Paul,

In the case that you cite the law is obviously at fault along with the range officials for not following proper procedures.

Why do you think that unannounced inspections of law abiding citizens premises are justifiable, saying that it is Greens' policy begs the question.
Would you also allow random unannounced searches of known Greens for cannabis possession

otb,

I learnt at a very early age how to identify mean,
nasty people. People to be avoided at all costs.
Luckily, I have met very few in my life-time.

Ever since you have joined the forum - you have made
me a target. I have tried to engage and inter-act
with you yet you seem hell-bent on your persistent
attacks to provoke a reaction from me. I have tried
scrolling past your post. I have tried explaining
my opinions to you. I have even tried calling a truce
and asked for civil behaviour. Nothing worked. Finally,
I have asked you to stop addressing posts
to me.

If you continue with these tactics - they are a
form of bullying and harassment - and I shall be forced
to take it up with the moderator.

So once again I shall state - kindly stop addressing
posts to me.
I am not interested in any inter-action with you.
I do not care what you think or what you have to say
on any topic. Please leave me alone!
There are plenty of other people you can address on this
forum who might be interested in your opinion.
I am not one of them.

//Care to explain why the police had to be called to the army base and why it was they that shot the gunman?//

I dunno. Maybe the soldiers were all pacifists? It seems unlikely. But it seems more likely than the U.S. Government disarming its own military. Why don't you try googling it? You know how to operate a search engine, don't you? If not, ask somebody else: you don't employ me as a researcher and it isn't my job to answer all your questions because you're too lazy to seek out the answers to your own questions.

//Why do you think that unannounced inspections of law abiding citizens premises are justifiable//

For exactly the same reason that RBT of law abiding citizens is justifiable. It's a good deterrent against people doing the wrong thing.

If you give people forewarning that you will be breath testing along Roman Rd. 6-9PM on the 7th of September, you will catch no drink drivers and consequently have zero deterrence effect on that risky and antisocial behaviour.

Kitchens are the same. If the health inspector tells the head chef he'll be coming round in a week, he'll be met with a kitchen cleaner than your average operating theatre. They won't get fined or shut down, and there will have been zero deterrence on their risky and unhygienic practices. If the healthie shows up unannounced, then the dirty buggers won't have time to get the fridge below 296K or fish out the dead cat from beneath the bench.

If the police tell somebody they'll be coming round in a week to ensure they are complying with the conditions of their firearms license, that gives them sufficient warning to conceal any illegal firearms and to properly secure the legal ones. Once again, nobody gets caught and there is no deterrence.

But if you know there's a chance you could get caught and punished, then you are less likely to take the risk. Unannounced compliance checks are generally a good way for police and other authorities to deter some types of crime in a financially viable manner.

Fox, "At no time have I ever asserted that that schoolies are more dangerous than bikie gangs"

Oh yes you damn well did.

Well, Levity, US soldiers are not allowed to be armed on Base unless doing duties which require them to be armed, just the same as in Australia.
That's why the police had to be called to deal with the situation.

Fortunately in NSW firearm inspections are carried out at a mutually agreeable time; the NSW Police respect the fact that Licenced Firearm owners are good citizens, the Greens would overturn this and introduce methods more in keeping with their role model the former, unlamented, USSR.

Bye the way, could you qualify for a pistol licence?

//Well, Levity, US soldiers are not allowed to be armed on Base unless doing duties which require them to be armed, just the same as in Australia.//

Well I can't do much about that, can I? Take it up with U.S. Admiralty.

I'm not the soldiering type and what the various Generals/Admirals/Air Marshalls decide to do on Australian bases is not really my place to comment on as a civilian. Of course, if they're getting pressure from the Ministry of Defence then it is our right and duty as citizens to demand accountability from our Government. Why don't you write the Hon. Kevin Andrews MP a letter laying out your concerns about the lack of readily available guns in military bases? I'm sure he'll be very glad to receive it. And so will ASIO.

//Fortunately in NSW firearm inspections are carried out at a mutually agreeable time//

An inspection carried out at a mutually agreeable time is a waste of everybody's time. And my taxes.

//the NSW Police respect the fact that Licenced Firearm owners are good citizens//

Holy sh!t, the NSW police can read minds now? I'd better get myself a protective al-foil thought helmet.

//Bye the way, could you qualify for a pistol licence?//

Who knows? The question is: could I be bothered? And the answer is: no. My fishing licence costs enough and I'd much sooner spend the time, money and effort getting my boat licence even though my kayak is sufficient for my needs and doesn't need a licence. Honestly, what would I do with a pistol? What use are the damn things? Boats are fun. I really don't get why some people get so excited about guns.

Is Mise, good to see you recognise that gun control laws are necessary. A 9 year old child been given a sub-machinegun to play with is stupid in the extreme, what purpose could it possibly serve. Some in the Australia gun lobby want little or no control over guns, similar to the US model. Put simply I wish for every gun on the planet to disappear.

Paul,

Then the men with spears and swords would rule,as they did in the past before sheer physical strength was the decider.

Samuel Colt made all men and women equal,

"Fear no man, no matter his size,
Just call on me, I'll equalize."

How are you getting on with jackboots in the night as the powers move in to do an unannounced search of your home?

otb,

Listen you pest - what part of
LEAVE ME ALONE!
do you not understand.

Paul1405, "An instructor at a shooting range in Arizona has died.."

Human error. To be found in everything that people do. An example that proves the exact opposite of what you intended.

Fortunately shooting ranges are so well supervised that accidents are exceedingly rare. Police are always called and of course any accident is reported world-wide by the gun prohibition activists. So it isn't like the accidents involving hand tools, examples being chain saws and brushcutters that are easily acquired by the untrained.

You could attempt to remove all risks by wrapping people in cotton wool, but then life would be very limited indeed and more would die from diabetes and other diseases of the couch-dwelling hysterical whiners.

Toni,

Glad to see that you are a hunter.

Paul,

The subject that I raised was not guns but the arbitrary action of the PM in banning the Adler shotgun.
The gun was incidental it could have been legal dishwashers or solar battery chargers.
No one has yet come up with a reasonable explanation of the ban, it was allegedly the rate of fire but as a normal old run of the mill double barrel shotgun can fire 5 shots in 5 seconds I don't see what the problem is.

//Glad to see that you are a hunter.//

I am not now and have never been a watch with a hinged cover protecting the glass. Are you feeling all right, Is Mise? You might need to talk to your GP or phamarcist about what medications you're taking if you can mistake me for a timepiece.

Toni,

You said that you have a fishing licence, one may then assume that you go hunting fish.

Is Mise, please explain why a 9 year old child would have a need to be playing with a sub-machinegun? I think it shows the mentality of the gun lobby, it would not have been her choice but that of crazy gun happy adults. All part of that toughening up process. LOL

Can't keep those children wrapped in cotton wool, let the toddler play with dads circular saw, Kids playing with circular saws and loaded guns, would certainly stop many dying from diabetes in later life, they wont reach their teenage years, a perverse form of population control. LOL

In the end they can all join the paramilitary citizens militia as members of The Beach Brigade, children armed to the teeth with sub machineguns and double barrel shoot guns, hate to think what the adults will be toting, Howitzers. LOL

"Fortunately shooting ranges are so well supervised" 9 year old girls hardly ever shoot an adult with a sub-machinegun, just now and then. LOL

"as a normal old run of the mill double barrel shotgun can fire 5 shots in 5 seconds I don't see what the problem is." If a 9 year old can have a sub-machinegun, surely a 5 year old should be okay with a old run of the mill double barrel shotgun. Amazing logic, fits the gun happy brigade to a tee.

//You said that you have a fishing licence, one may then assume that you go hunting fish.//

I wouldn't really call it hunting, but I guess you could think of it that way. I'm pretty lazy even by the standards of recreational fishermen, and my 'hunting' basically involves casting out, inserting rod into rod-holder then sitting around relaxing until the fish hunt down my bait. It should be noted that I'm not a very successful fisherman: but fishing isn't really about catching fish unless you're a commercial fisherman.

Fishing rods are not very dangerous. You only need a licence to catch fish - there is no restriction on anybody buying a fishing rod. I have no statistics because I doubt anybody has collected them, but if you were to compare countries on the basis of fishing rod ownership, I suspect you would find no correlation between overall homicide rates and widespread proliferation of fishing rods. It would be much harder to compare rates of homicide by fishing rod because these statistics are probably not collected either.

However, there seems to be a correlation between more guns and more people using them to kill each other. I believe many people go hunting with bows. What's wrong with that? People have been doing it for centuries. And whilst homicide by bow is a real possibility and has doubtless occurred in a few cases, you never hear about archery enthusiasts going on killing sprees or kids accidentally killing themselves or others with bows. You can't just pick up a loaded bow and inadvertently kill somebody the way you can with a gun (unless it's a crossbow and they're illegal).

Toni Lavis, "However, there seems to be a correlation between more guns and more people using them to kill each other"

The crowing of the rooster causes the sun to rise too.

It is a fool who doesn't look to the person who committed the crime and social and economic policies.

Meanwhile in Queensland Labor Premier is busily giving the highly successful anti-bikie law the deep six and the gangs are back in colours and with a vengeance. It is back to daily reports like this,

<NEWS
Woman rushed to hospital after alleged road rage crash
JESSICA HUXLEY GOLD COAST BULLETIN SEPTEMBER 09, 2015 8:27AM

WITNESSES to a terrifying road rage attack on the Gold Coast yesterday morning say a man was bashing a trapped woman with a brick after he ran her off the road.

The woman, mother-of-one Tara Brown, was rushed to Gold Coast University Hospital in a critical condition after her car was allegedly forced down an embankment into a front yard during a crash at Macquarie Ave, Molendinar at 8.45am.

The man, believed to be her ex and former Bandido Sergeant-at-arms Lionel Patea, allegedly stole a white council ute but later surrendered to police at Coomera and has also been taken to hospital, allegedly with stab wounds.>

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/crime-court/woman-rushed-to-hospital-after-alleged-road-rage-crash/story-fnje8bkv-1227517333738

More detailed report,
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/young-mum-fights-for-life-after-alleged-assault-by-bikie-ex-partner/story-fntwpug1-1227518527822

The government should ban Jeeps (the vehicle used to run her off the road) and bricks and pointed/edged weapons (the weapons involved)?

The alleged offender also featured in the brawl that

No need to finish off that last sentence, here is a report featuring the said Lionel Patea and other 'misunderstood boys who only want to ride motorbikes'.

Whoops, busy day, some of us have to put our hours into work and tax paperwork. That link,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-14/accused-instigator-of-gold-coast-bikie-brawl-sentenced/6697226

Hi OTB,

From that news report:

"Lawyer for Teamo Alastair McDougall said outside court his client was glad the matter was "completely behind him".

"He's a single dad ... all he wants to do is get home to his boys and look after them," Mr McDougall said."

And bash the odd woman's head in with a brick. So misunderstood :(

I'm surprised how many bikies seem to be non-Anglo. At the risk of stereotyping, maybe the notions of the Marxist anthropologist Oscar Lewis, of an alienated population, with a very casual attitude to right and wrong, and to violence, that he characterised (I think incorrectly) as expressions of a 'culture of poverty', may be relevant here: to large sections of some migrant populations, who perhaps arrived, or grew up, in Australia AFTER the big economic boom of the 1960s, and who couldn't get an economic and social foothold in Australian society, crime and violence may be an easy option for such populations.

Something similar happened, after all, to Aboriginal populations who moved to the cities just a bit too late, after the mid-sixties, who couldn't find their feet in unfamiliar environments until it was too late - say, post-1972, when jobs were drying up. Often many of those alienated Aboriginal people went back to country towns, or festered in outlying suburbs, which now are notorious for the incidence of idiotic and petty crime - and not-so-petty crime.

The bottom line is that there are populations with a very easy-going attitude to crime and violence. Hence they drift to the bikies.

You know I'm right.

Cheers,

Joe

The history of bikie gangs in this country is
interesting as is the crime profile of outlaw
motorcycle gangs put out by the Crime Commission.
The fact sheets are worth a read:

http://www.crimecommission.gov.au/publications/intelligence-products/crime-profile-fact-sheets/outlaw-motorcycle-gangs

Loudmouth,

Is IS all society's fault. Even where the gang members are being imported. Well, according to the criminals themselves, their expensive lawyers and faux leftists, that is.

Fox,

LOL, when was that politically sensitive and diplomatic brochure drafted and under whose administration?

There were enough bikies rioting in Broadbeach Qld for police to be rushed from Brisbane, Ipswich, North Coast and other centres. The bikies surrounded a police station, threatening police and their families too. All in a day's work apparently. So the image of 'just a few naughty lads is absolute cr@p.

It is incontrovertible that many police and their loved ones were threatened and feared for their lives and close family. The threats continue.

The feds are playing catch-up on methamphetamine ATM. Guess what? The OMG bikies feature prominently in the import, manufacture and distribution of all manner of drugs. On the Gold Coast only a year ago Rebels bikies were arrested in connection with an alleged racket importing $20 million amphetamines from the UK.

What about this,
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-23/gold-coast-mongols-president-nick-forbes-arrested-treasurer/6567172

This is the Palaszczuk Labor government in action (lack of action!),

<Broadbeach bikie brawl: no appeal of sentences, says D’Ath

ATTORNEY General Yvette D’Ath will not consider lodging an appeal against penalties handed out to bikies invovled in a mass brawl at Broadbeach, despite none of them being given any jail time.

Even though gang members threatened to slit a bystander’s throat, king-hit a police officer, terrorised families and menaced a vastly-outnumbered group of police, Magistrate Michael Quinn yesterday allowed 18 of the men to walk free.

The incident led to the then-LNP Newman government introducing tough anti-bikie laws and closing down the clubs.

Burleigh MP Michael Hart wrote to Ms D’Ath, calling for her to step in and appeal against the sentences, saying the departure of former Chief Judge Tim Carmody last month had led to a “softly-softly” approach in the courts.>
http://tinyurl.com/osf4ta3

The Crime Commission in the link given earlier has
a variety of publications on organised crime in
Australia - including a 2015 Report. Anyone with
enough intelligence can simply click on the provided
information.

As far as laws and bikie gangs in Queensland are concerned
there are also plenty of sites available on the web that discuss
the ineptitude of the previous LNP government's rush
to get their draconian laws through - which would have
had serious repercussions in the state.
Many Queenslanders objected to the laws. And as the facts
showed - their effectiveness was questionable.
Hence the election
of a new government by a landslide in that state.
People made their feelings known.
The laws are now being examined by a taskforce that will
ensure that the new laws will not be the shambles of the
past ones. Representatives from all facets of the police
force, the law, and appropriate organisations are part of the taskforce.

The following link explains the lessons to be learned from
the Queensland stuff up:

http://theconversation.com/queensland-holds-lessons-for-states-set-to-crack-down-on-bikies-43317

Fox,

Out of all of the serious problems affecting Queensland such as unemployment especially consequent to the reduction in mining, homelessness, drugs and violent crime, why would the first priority of the Annastacia Palaszczuk Labor government be to deep six the proved successful Queensland's Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment (VLAD) Act that put bikie gangs on the back foot?

It is disingenuous to sledge the anti-bikie law for the number of convictions under that Act (only the most senior police could lay a charge), when there were hundreds of successful charges laid and intel gathered through the apprehensions and investigations it enabled (which was the intent of the law).

Now the gangs are back with a vengeance and new gangs, sensing the softening of government resolve in Queensland are moving in,

<Violent New Zealand Black Power gang has moved into the Gold Coast and there’s nothing cops can do

A NEW Zealand street gang notorious for brazen violence, drugs and extortion has moved into the Coast’s northern corridor and there is nothing anti-bikie police can do about it.

Black Power is actively recruiting Maori and Pacific Islander members and has moved into the drug trade in the south east corner.

..The New Zealand Police said the gang is involved “in serious violence, selling and distributing drugs, possessing firearms and offensive weapons, and using intimidation and threatening tactics in pursuit of their criminal activities”.

The criminality and brutality of the gang is well documented in New Zealand.>
http://tinyurl.com/lrfwbjp

Paul,

I can't honestly be bothered responding to your drivel.

//Toni Lavis, "However, there seems to be a correlation between more guns and more people using them to kill each other"

The crowing of the rooster causes the sun to rise too.//

No it doesn't. Why don't people ever pay attention during their physics lessons? The Earth's rotation on its axis causes the sun to rise. This isn't quantum electrodynamics, OTB. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you.

Correlation does not imply causation. And it is unreasonable to argue that guns are a sufficient or necessary cause of homicide in and of themselves. But if more guns correlates with more people using them to kill each other - and it does - then surely that is an undesirable result and something that should be avoided at all costs.

Toni,

But ...... after the rooster crows each morning, isn't it obvious that the sun then comes up ? How else can any reasonable person explain it ? You can go on about the earth's axis and mumbojumbo like electrodynamics and yadayada but any reasonable person knows the truth.

Earth's axis etc.,? Mere correlation. And as you rightly say, "Correlation does not imply causation."

Joe

Toni Lavis,

You are just wasting your time and everyone else's with your adolescent immaturity.

//But ...... after the rooster crows each morning, isn't it obvious that the sun then comes up ?//

Which rooster, Joe? There are lots of them. Probably, somewhere out there, there is a rooster crowing right now. Sun's not due up for a few hours yet (we can predict the when the sun will rise because of a science called astronomy). Maybe it's just the wrong rooster. Probably, somewhere out there, a rooster will crow just before dawn, local time. But he's just as equally likely to be the wrong rooster, and therefore a rubbish herald of the rising sun. Maybe the Greenwich Observatory or the Bureau international des poids et mesures keep the Official Rooster.

//How else can any reasonable person explain it ?//

There are any number of methods by which one can demonstrate that the Earth is sphere and that the it rotates on its axis. Put the two together, and all you need is a sun and... hey presto! the thing rises and sets all by itself without any need to imagine giant dung beetles, chariots of fire or Official Roosters.

//Earth's axis etc.,? Mere correlation.//

It really isn't. If you don't accept that the Earth rotates then you have to accept that everything rotates around the Earth. This is an old-fashioned view but perfectly consistent with relativity theory. Either way, something is rotating.

//You are just wasting your time and everyone else's with your adolescent immaturity.//

Those in glass houses...

If you don't want people taking the piss out of appallingly stupid remarks like 'roosters make the sun rise', my advice would be to refrain from making appallingly stupid comments like 'roosters make the sun rise'. Surely it can't be that hard for somebody as bright as you.

Hi Toni,

Exactly ! There are roosters all around the world - thank God! - who crow just before the sun rises in their part of the world. Of course, in the NEXT part of the world, roosters crow later, that's obvious, and so on, and so on, all around world.

I know it is a difficult concept to get used to but when you think about it, you know it makes sense. The earth just sits here, and - because of the roosters - the sun goes around and around it. And it's been doing that for hundreds of years, ever since the earth and the sun were invented.

Sometimes I'm amazed that people just can't see what is right in front of their noses. How else can you explain it ? And what do you think if, one day, those roosters decided not to crow ? What then ? Hmmm ? It's just too horrible to think about.

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Roosters crow; hens deliver.

Is Mise, I take it you have no justification for a 9 year old girl to be in charge of a sub-machinegun, why not your usual line of "well, its legal".
I am always happy to reply to your dribble, and I will in this case, as soon as you post your answer.

John Howard has taken another swipe at the pro gun lobby! Good on him.

//The earth just sits here, and - because of the roosters - the sun goes around and around it. And it's been doing that for hundreds of years, ever since the earth and the sun were invented.

Sometimes I'm amazed that people just can't see what is right in front of their noses. How else can you explain it ?//

Joe, you and runner ought to team up and co-author a science textbook for young earth creationists. I'm sure it will be a best seller.

Runner you profess to being a Christian. What sect do you belong to? The Branch Davidians, your beliefs seem to fit right in with theirs, lots of mumbo, and heaps of jumbo.

Hi Toni,

If I had the energy, I would love to set up a religion based on the worship of roosters, they do such a wonderful job. I would have teams of priestesses, dancing and calling out "We love rooster", or something like that. Perhaps Foxy could be recruited as Head Priestess. As the only priest, or Head Rooster, I would have the arduous task of keeping all the priestesses happy. Well, someone would have to do it.

One of my religion's main functions would be to bring humour into the lives of the humourless, Toni. Just watch roosters in a chook-yard: endless hours of fun, once their day's work is done.

Now, how to register it as a charity, and apply for public funds.

Thanks for the advice,

Joe

Paul,

In answer to your

"Is Mise, I take it you have no justification for a 9 year old girl to be in charge of a sub-machinegun, why not your usual line of "well, its legal".
I am always happy to reply to your dribble, and I will in this case, as soon as you post your answer.

John Howard has taken another swipe at the pro gun lobby! Good on him."

I thought that I'd replied sufficiently when I said:

"Paul,

In the case that you cite the law is obviously at fault along with the range officials for not following proper procedures...."

To which you replied:

"Is Mise, good to see you recognise that gun control laws are necessary. A 9 year old child been given a sub-machinegun to play with is stupid in the extreme, what purpose could it possibly serve. Some in the Australia gun lobby want little or no control over guns, similar to the US model. Put simply I wish for every gun on the planet to disappear.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 7 September 2015 8:42:50 PM"

How many times must one answer a question before you manage to grasp that an answer has been given?

As for John Howard taking a swipe at the Gun Lobby, well that's a bit unfair, after all he is the Father of the Gun Lobby in Australia; doesn't he appreciate the unique honour that shooters did him in naming the JWH cartridge after him?

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

I'm not too keen on roosters.
Bad experience during my childhood.

We had a very feisty one who used to attack me
every time dad made me go into the chook's yard
to feed the chooks.
This creature would wait for me and then as I approached
would fly at me - scaring the life out of me.
Dad finally got rid of him.

In any case - regarding roosters crowing. I thought
a rooster crows only when he sees the light. Put him
in the dark and he'll never crow.

Dear Foxy.

Well, if I do start up a religion, the offer still stands :) I can't imagine anybody or anything wanting to attack you - did you mistake his ardour for aggression ?

Hmmmm, a rooster starts crowing AFTER he first sees the light ? Since the first imperative of any new ideology is to suppress doubt and enforce agreement, we would probably have to outlaw such misinformation. And like any half-decent ideological movement, that would mean that we have to initiate and give full reign to the 'extractors' beloved of every revolution, to root out non-believers: the 'National Keepers of the Veritable Dawn' [ ].

Love,

Joe

Is Mise thanks for that response and it is very good that you can see the dumbness of the gun lobby and the stupidity of the politicians who have framed laws to suit this crazed minority. Be thankful here in NSW we have The Greens working to protect us from this ratbag element. I am sure David sends his love to you brother Is Mise.

Are you saying there is a bullet out there with John Howard's name on it? I certainly hope not!

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Ah, but we must not feel compelled to
embellish the truth - when starting up a
new "ideology," whether it's about
rooster, or "facts" like - that more
guns make places safer, or that Australia
takes in the most refugees, or that
climate change is nothing more than a Greenie/Labor
lie, or that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling WMDs,
or that US President Obama is a closet Muslim
who was born in Kenya, and so forth.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

BTW - my grandchildren love the film,
"Rock-a-Doodle." A delightful musical
adventure from Don Bluth, the creator of the
animated classics "An American Tail," and
"The Land Before Time, combining live action and
animation, including the voices of Glen Campbell,
Christopher Plummer and Phil Harris. It's a fast-
paced tale of friendship, courage and rock 'n' roll.

The story becomes a real adventure when flood waters
threaten to destroy the farm and only Chanticleer the
rooster can stop the rain by bringing up the sun with
song, but he has left the farmyard and found overnight
success as an Elvis-style rock 'n' roll singer named
"The King." The animals set out to find Chanticleer in the
big city and save the farm against all-odds.

Hi Foxy,

Hmmm ....... we could build a sort of Bible around that story - Chanticleer as a Moses figure, bringing down the True Written and Unchangeable Word of God out of a cave or from behind a bush. Or even as a Jesus figure - although of course, for that, we would probably have to kill him off, then resurrect him, something like that. Well, if other religions can invent their origin and salvation myths, so can we.

Hey, there could be good money in this :)

Thanks, partner !

Love,

Joe

Paul,

Could you ever graciously admit that you had made a mistake?

"Is Mise thanks for that response and it is very good that you can see the dumbness of the gun lobby and the stupidity of the politicians who have framed laws to suit this crazed minority.[that is not what I said] Be thankful here in NSW we have The Greens working to protect us from this ratbag element.[ HEAVEN PROTECT US!!] I am sure David sends his love to you brother Is Mise.

Are you saying there is a bullet out there with John Howard's name on it? I certainly hope not!"

No, Paul, a cartridge named in his honour, as it is a legal round that is more powerful than the one that in stupidity was banned, presumeably because it was considered to powerful.
We can't get an answer on why calibres larger than .38 were banned, not even from the Greens who supported the idiotic measure.

I'm all for sensible laws but not vindictive ones or ones that achieve nothing positive.

Such as one may have a spent cartridge case on a pencil in all the Australian states except WA where it is a criminal offence, on the plus side one may have a pistol, if it's really needed, for self defence in WA but not in the rest of the country; so much for uniform national gun laws

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Nah. I'd rather write stories about -
puff-less dragons, prankster spirits,
sun-loving snowmen, big-footed pixies,
and glass-slippers (story of Cinerella
from the slipper's point of view).

As I said Roosters have been done to death -
and I couldn't beat Rock-a-Doodle. and Chanticleer.

Joe,

Where does your religion stand on the subject of idolatry? Australia has long and proud tradition of Big Things, but nothing that could compare with the scale of Christ the Redeemer in Rio. Would this new religion get behind the construction of an Giant Cock statue to really put Australia on the map as the home of Big Things?

Hi Toni,

Thanks for that: I hadn't thought about it but on the subject of a Rooster-based religion, I'm happy to put my Giant Cock wherever it can give pleasure and inspiration. It would have to be something that could be seen from outer-space, or on Google Earth.

Now: Orpington or Leghorn ?

Thanks again, Toni,

Joe

Joe,

I like the Welsummer:

http://www.backyardpoultry.com/wiki/index.php/Chicken_Breeds_Chart

I don't know much about live poultry, I just think it's a nice-looking cock.

Well, thank you, Toni :)