In my view the ‘Heir Apparent’ to the Prime Ministership of Australia is not Labor’s mediocre leader Bill Shorten, but the far more dynamic, competent small ‘l’ Liberal, Malcolm Turnbull. Turnbull would be a better choice for Australia, and a better leader than the big ‘C’ conservative Tony Abbott can ever be.
Abbott is desperately trying to shore up his leadership by demanding errant government members, particularly cabinet members “toe the line”. This demand is squarely aimed at the most disobedient of all, Malcolm Turnbull, who I am sure will take great heed of Abbott’s warning. Turnbull seems to hold a different view on nearly everything compared to Abbott, particularly when it comes to policy matters, along with crises matters like Bishop and Heydon.
Another big test of leadership for Abbott is coming in a month, the WA by election for the seat of Canning, which the Liberals hold by a 12% margin, but polling suggests the contest will be close. A Liberal loss would be a disaster in no uncertain terms, and the blame would be sheeted home directly to Tony Abbott. Then Turnbull could make his move, as his fellow Liberals if they do not already realize it, are staring defeat in the face under Abbott at the next general election, whilst almost certain victory would be guaranteed with Turnbull. For the survivalist in Liberal marginal seats the leadership would become a no contest as they certainly would choose Turnbull over Abbott.

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/liberal-ministers-sounding-out-colleagues-on-leadership/story-fns0jze1-1227487986029

From the Greens Protest Party, rumour-mongers and purveyors of endless crap.

Surprised any Greens and their mates the CFMEU have come up yet from their booze-ups to celebrate continued freedom from scrutiny. No sense in allowing those lowly union members to have any rights, eh what?

I understand that you want to minimise the damage, Paul, but why have a Prime Minister in the first place?

Turnbull sure would make a better PM than the Abbott regime. At least Turnbull talks sense, with out the crap. He is a Liberal, and not a conservative infiltrator.

I don't think there is anyone else to pick from. Morrison has his head on the block with his dealings in immigration, and refugees. When the royal commission starts that is. The rest of are corrupt, or just plain stupid

Dear Paul,

Michael Gordon in his recent article
for the Fairfax media - tells us that the latest Fairfax
poll reveals a massive swing of more than 7 per cent
against the government since the last election.
That the government faces a 36- seat electoral wipe-out.
The Canning election in September will be a good
indication of where the government stands.

This result will clarify the choice for Liberal Party MPs,
if and when they decide they cannot go to the next election
under Mr Abbott's leadership.

Malcolm Turnbull as Gordon points out, has firmed as the
public's choice of Liberal Leader - while the Coalition
vote has gone backwards since the Prime Minister survived a
leadership spill motion in February.

Malcolm Turnbull we're told has a whopping 18 per cent lead
over the next most favoured choice in Julie Bishop, a 26 point
lead over Mr Abbott, a 36 point lead over Scott Morrison, and
the struggling Joe Hockey.

Malcolm Turnbull is seen as more in sync with an electorate
that wants more action on climate change and supports
marriage equality.

However, Mr Turnbull still trails Mr Abbott amongst conservatives
and his actions have enhanced his standing amongst non-conservatives
like distancing himself from Mr Abbott's alarmist rhetoric on
Islam.

Much of Mr Turnbull's support is coming from those who
say they won't vote for the Liberal Party under the current
leadership. A switch to the former leader should therefore
do more than any of the alternatives to improve the
Coalition's prospects.

It will be up to the Liberal Party MPs to decide what they
are going to do and which leader will give them the best chance
of winning the next election.

It will be interesting to see what they decide.
Personally I wouldn't be betting with full confidence - just yet.

The only people who want Turnbull as PM are Labor voters, or people who certainly do not vote for the Coalition. These people underline just how far to the left Turnbull is. He is only intrested in power for himself. His first attemt to get into politics was to approach LABOR.

Of course the Left wing loons want Turnbull for PM!

If turdbull becomes leader does that mean I can call him an assassin and death squad member. It was good enough for rabbott to scream it across the table at Shorten in question time.

I believe that Sportsbet is offering about the same odds for Plibersek replacing Shorten as for Turnbull replacing Abbott.

So it must also be true to say Plibersek for (Labor) Opposition Leader, sooner than later.

Now, what about that new Greens Leader who is being white-anted by that nasty Watermelon faction? Presumably he will be gone sooner than later too.

Beach, your first rant could not be further from the truth. "rumour-mongers and purveyors of endless crap." This is not rumor it is based on fact. The fact is a loss in Canning will see the end of Abbott. The Liberals hold the seat by 11.8% with the polls predicting a 10% plus swing. The Liberal vote is evaporating by the day.
For those who don't know it, Robert Menzies founded the Liberal Party as a liberal progressive party, Malcolm Turnbull is actually a true liberal where as Abbott and others are conservatives in the mold of the British Conservative Party.
As for the Greens, Turnbull would impact on our vote as many social progressives who are economic conservatives would again vote Liberal. About 20% of Green voters preference the Liberals over Labor.

ttbn, I think the opposite is the case. Most of the Left want Labor to win the next election, and that would be far easier with Abbott as PM. It's really only those who want someone to depose Shorten ASAP who want Tunbull to challenge Abbott now.

It's only by the standards of the Right that Turnbull's at all to the Left. Any objective measure shows there's very little leftish about him.

There you are Graham, the perfect poll for you.

Do one on who would vote for collation if lead by Turnbull, & who would not.

You could also ask who would vote Labor if Turnbull were to switch parties, something I could see the slime ball doing if made a good offer.

All these lefties want the bloke, & I don't know a single coalition voter who does want him, or would ever vote for a party he lead. Why the hell don't they adopt him, & get him out of an otherwise decent party.

It must be obvious Labor & the slimeball were made for each other.

"The first party to change its leader will win the next election"

[Not my words, but I can't remember where I saw them...]

Why is a true liberal getting Liberal voters on here in a flap. I only assume they vote Liberal. Hasbeen with "It must be obvious Labor & the slimeball (Turnbull) were made for each other. Hasbeen as some said at the time Ronald Reagan was a communists, or was that Ronald McDonald, I always get them two confused. Its all a matter of perspective, and where you sit on the political spectrum, is it nice out there sitting on the extreme right with Beach and Genghis Khan.
Beach continues to nut on about the Greens, with Greens leader Richard Di Natale "being white-anted by that nasty (non existent) Watermelon faction." I must talk to the wrong people, so far in NSW all I have got from fellow Greens is they like him, I'll let you know after I hear him speak in Sydney next month.

mikk; "If turdbull becomes leader does that mean I can call him an assassin and death squad member" sure can, all's fare in love and politics! Abbott can say what he likes.
Quoting one Liberal MP ""People left [Parliament] last week like stunned mullets and are not sure what this week will bring. The government's problems run deep."

Back to the topic, can I ask, what should Liberal voters who can't stand Turnbull going to do, I he is leader come next election? PUP's turned to PULP and Pauline is back in her fish and chip shop.

Now why would the govt wish to change leaders?

Er....?

Oh yes.....

"Inside the Prime Minister's inner circle, they tell themselves that they can win the next election because Bill Shorten is so hopeless.

They've told themselves that 166 times in a row; that's the number of consecutive polls since the government was ahead in any of them.That's counting all the surveys conducted by all six national pollsters, according to the research consultant John Stirton."

No-one lies and misleads parliament like Tony Abbott.

Here's the latest of his whoppers to be blown out of the water:

"When it comes to Australia's largest coal mine, the Abbott government has a difficult relationship with the truth. If you haven't heard, Australia is under siege from a new kind of eco-warrior, one with a manual and money for legal challenges designed to endlessly frustrate economic development.

At the centre of this battle is the proposed Carmichael coal mine in Queensland. The mega mine, led by Indian billionaire Gautam Adani, has had its federal environmental approval set aside. Why? Because a Queensland environment group – the Mackay Conservation Group – exercised its legal rights and used a federal court challenge to expose a flaw in the government's assessment of that project."

"This is a project that will create 10,000 jobs." Prime Minister Tony Abbott, question time, Tuesday, August 18"

(Govt spokesmen have been unfurling this load of cobblers every time they've been asked, but good old Tones doesn't flinch from taking the opportunity to mislead parliament)

Here's the reality:

"This number, straight out of Adani's press material, was challenged in a separate Queensland land court case in April this year by Adani's own expert, Jerome Fahrer from ACIL Allen. Dr Fahrer conceded 1464 jobs would be created. What's more, Adani has been laying off workers, as Fairfax Media revealed recently, including its project manager Parsons Brinckerhoff and most of the staff in its Brisbane office."

That's 1464 jobs to be created over thirty years.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/tony-abbott-sinks-lower-than-bill-shorten-in-fairfax-ipsos-poll-20150816-gj0ber.html#ixzz3jJDaEnoj

That's the kind of integrity Hasbeen's pin-up boy, Abbott, displays...wonder why the wheels are falling off the govt jalopy.

Sorry...left one of the links out above.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/adani-mine-a-20b-project-creating-10000-jobs-the-abbott-governments-myths-busted-20150819-gj2u2o.html

A Poirot you left on lie out. The indians are currently connecting their poorer areas to the grid so they can have electricity. So much for Abbott's coal for India plea.

Turnbull is the coalitions only hope of survival.

The impartial judge doing the stacked royal commission, is being talked about by the Gov; general, that will test his impartiality also.

The leaks are getting bigger and bigger, Abbott should take the hint and resign, after all he has no authority. A trigger for a DD election has been passed by legislators, so the possibilities are endless aren't they.

mikk,

You could certainly call Turnbull those things. So would I. In fact, I think of him in those terms now! He is certainly determined to harm Abbott, and he will even continue to try to get the Coalition kicked out, so enormous is his ego and his thirst for power. Turnbull would be happy to serve as leader (he would lead anything) of the opposition before he became PM. He thinks he is smart, but he is utterly transparent.

Paul,

In answer to you question, if Turnbull took over, I would cast an informal vote, unless a genuine conservative stood in my electorate, but that is highly unlikely.

Gosh, what sly dogs some are, posing as being concerned for a glorious future for their hated adversaries the LNP, but really fearing the leader they also say is their (leftists) best chance of ever winning an election after the Rudd-> Galah'd + treacherous Greens-> Rudd again, debacles.

Marxist cunning.

Anyhow to use a term of Marxist origin (Greens Watermelons would snap to attention), commodification, which the leftists rather love having had their red-headed wonder commodify air and tax the public for it, their poster boy Malcolm Turnbull would be the number one choice today of anyone interested in commodification.

Mind you, the jury would be out on who would get the prize as the pollie with the mostest where endless commodification to relieve the public of their hard-earned is concerned.

That Italian-suited, antique clock collecting Keating of 'Banana Republic' (ill-)fame would come in first most exasperated taxpayers would say.

The greasy-haired, teared-up Bodgie who also lives the millionaire life could have given Keating a run, but he was hobbled by his attraction to other more colourful pursuits.

There are some very short memories around here.

Tony Abbott allows very funny news paper cartoon characters. All the past prime ministers have made embarrassing cartoons enjoyable to enough to buy news papers.

Malcolm Turnbull sounds too intelligent to be an embarrassing image prime minister.
Malcolm Turnbull would not make good believable bad embarrassing news stories.

Did you see Tony Abbott standing under a "reject shop" sign, allowing a picture with Tony Abbott seen with the words "Reject".

August 19, Tony Abbott was seen in a cattle pen, cattle running around Tony Abbott. The day's media news about politicians leaking information, could have had more quotes about herding politicians in his party.

Embarrassing important political people, for some reason proves democracy is realist. Politicians are like religious priests and ministers, as to convince congregations, praying to god is real. Politicians are there to convince citizens democracy is real.

Y'know, if the redhead could have got her way she would be the star (Prime) Minister for Commodification.

Galah'd's big-assed move to commodify and tax the air Aussies breathe was simply breathtaking.

Galah'd to member of the public, "That air you have been breathing is full of poisonous carbon monoxide. Your fault. So now I am going to have to tax you for it and give most of the money to foreigners just to teach you lesson".

Member of the public, "Ouch! About the fate of the rest of that tax money?".

Galah'd, "I have a jet waiting and some very nice tourist spots to visit, so never you mind".

The bitterness of those who said he would never be PM after seeing off Turnbull, Rudd, Gillard, Rudd continues to manifest. The hatred seems so ingrain that even if he had a conversion moment like Rudd and wore a rainbow tie the media would suddenly be stumped that he might show such lack of integrity and morals as what they and his haters have.

As a long time conservative, if Mr M. TURNBULL were ever to become our Prime Minister, I'd vote informal. I neither like him nor trust him !

It is interesting to see that Paul prefers a liberal as PM over any of the incompetents from Labor or the Greens.

Aint it the truth o sung wu, only an idiot, or a Labor voter, synonymous really, would trust the slime ball.

I do find it interesting that these Labor/Green types, who are so good at picking dropkicks as leaders, [think Whitlam, Keating, Latham, KRudd, & Gillard & the harpies from the south], should be so drawn to him. Even if you personally liked him, the fact that they do should give you pause to rethink your reasoning.

Don't worry mate, even the entitlement bludger crowd are going to realise that with Labor, pretty soon there would be nothing left in the trough to get their snouts into. With the experience of Grease lenders are going to be reluctant to lend money to spendthrift governments.

A Quick look at our Labor dills up here will show the lefties owe too much to too many in payback, for them to be able to run a sensible budget.

Chifley must be spinning in his grave.

Been a while since my last post but thought I might make a comment on Abbott.

Don't like the bloke, don't like his politics, his ethics, his bullying or his lies. However the last few months I have seen him on television he has looked really quite drawn and colourless.

There might be a few reasons for this, the strain of the job could be getting to him or the continued internal strife within his own party might be taking its toll. But it feels like there might be something else and I'm hoping it isn't medical in nature. I want him out of government at the next election, sooner if a Liberal party room ballot can arrange it, but I want it to be the will of the people or the will of the party that sees him off rather than ill health.

SteeleRedux,

It's called "the wheels falling off" syndrome.

No wonder Abbott is looking strained...everything he set in place to thump Labor with has turned on him. Karma has been winding up for this for a while - and now it's unleashed itself upon the hapless Abbott.

"Tony Abbott was far from Canberra on Wednesday morning, up to his ankles in bulldust, and wishing, without doubt, he could stay there.

Back in Parliament House, his ministers were pondering a confidential briefing note that instructed them to put their recent festival of leaks behind them and to tell anyone who asked that "our cabinet is functioning extremely well"."

But wait....

"The entire briefing note was promptly leaked to the press gallery. We are not making this up."

Lol!

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/up-to-his-ankles-in-bulldust-tony-abbott-hoofs-it-leak-follows-20150819-gj2pdw.html#ixzz3jKunB94j

Tones has tried everything in the book in an attempt to fool the nation into believing he knows what he's doing at this juncture.

Ever since the IPA agenda was fulsomely stymied, he's been struggling to come up with something...anything...

And now cabinet is leaking like a sieve.

Not the sort of thing to bring a glow to one's cheeks.

I couldn't agree with you more there HASBEEN. Anyway, before the next federal election, I'm quite sure the Royal Commission into Union behaviour will have travelled a little further. Gathering up as it goes, the odd shred of Labour detritus as it ponders ever onward, with or without the present incumbent, as the Royal Commissioner ?

o sung wu,

I think TURC, whether or not it sticks with Heydon, has been pretty much comprehensively rendered legless by recent machinations.

It was always seen as a witch hunt - put in train by the Liberal apparatus to thump Labor.

Nice to see it all come back and bite Abbott on the arse.

Poirot, Abbott has told his ministers to stop taking leaks outside of the cabinet room, he is sick and tide of having to try and mop up the mess!
Shadow, unfortunately if Turnbull was to grab the top job he would have to sack three quarters of the useless cabinet, Hocking, Joyce, Morrison etc, etc by no means a complete list. At the last federal and state elections I preferenced the Liberal candidate second, as they were true liberal progressives and the ALP candidates were labor right conservatives. Nothing wrong with voting for a Liberal progressive in my book. Sometime after Menzies formed the Liberal Party as a progressive party the conservatives moved in and took over. Menzies was an enigma, a conservative on many issues, but liberal in other ways.

Oh is Abbott still PM. The mouth frothers had me believe he was gone last November then January then February.

runner,

"Oh is Abbott still PM. The mouth frothers had me believe he was gone last November then January then February."

Hey, hey....stunning isn't it!

With a bit of luck, they'll shamble their way to the next election with Tones still at the helm.

We can only hope.....

Billions of $ for renewables ready, but not while Abbott is there, the environment is not worthy of investment while we have an unknown quantity in office.

We are in a mess, without proper government, we need to clean this dysfunctional regime up before Indonesia deserts us altogether.

The general consensus from political commentators on
The Drum, The Insiders, and generally in the newspapers,
seems to be that voters crave more than anything else
stability and certainty - not just after the Rudd/Gillard
years but at a time of deep economic uncertainty and even
amid the shock they've had in the past 12 months
when the return of "adult government" only gave them
more uncertainty in the form of the 2014 budget and
February's almost leadership coup.

We're told that the Prime Minister is desperate to shut
down any possible area of Labor attack - yet all he is
currently achieving is open warfare within his own
ranks on a range of contentious issues with policy chaos,
gay marriage, national security, and pronouncements to his
Ministers. He is actually fomenting division between
his cabinet and the party room.

Whether that leads to further leadership challenges -
time will tell. However, it's not looking good as the polls
and the party leaks currently indicate.
But as I stated earlier - I would not bet either way as yet.

cont'd ...

I forgot to add that replacing Mr Abbott with
Mr Turnbull may seem like a great idea to some.
However, the economic problems as well as the
contentious issues will still exist. Miracles
don't happen over night. There are also many in
the conservative ranks that will not accept Mr
Turnbull's stand on climate change or gay marriage -
and this could cause further and continued divisions
within the ranks. I'm not sure what the answer
is - hopefully it will become clearer closer to the
next election.

G'day there POIROT...

You may be right, it was a very stupid oversight by someone or other, in the Liberal Party to invite the current Royal Commissioner into Unions, as a keynote speaker, at a fundraiser of all things !

That said, I reckon there's a lot of 'product' yet to be adduced into evidence ? The stupid part of it, as you've quite rightly opined, the entire Commission is now been rendered effectively unconscionable, notwithstanding how much illegality is yet to be uncovered ?

Bloody hell they're stupid, some of those in the LNP ? Surely they could have seen a 'conflict of interest' emerging from such an injudicious invitation. On a personal note, I (personally) don't believe the Royal Commissioner, HEYDEN J would have a bias. He is a very august jurist held in the highest regard by all those in the legal profession.

But we all know that old chestnut 'justice must be seen to be done', and any suggestion of a politically biased 'judgement' one way or the other, well nothing's 'seen' is it...?

"There are also many in the conservative ranks that will not accept Mr
Turnbull's stand on climate change or gay marriage"

Interesting too that global warming and gay marriage are the keystone issues that Shorten's Labor will be campaigning on in the forthcoming federal election.

o sung wu,

"...On a personal note, I (personally) don't believe the Royal Commissioner, HEYDEN J would have a bias. He is a very august jurist held in the highest regard by all those in the legal profession."

Here's what Dyson Heydon thinks on the matter - his words:

"It is fundamental to the administration of justice that the judge be neutral. It is for this reason that the appearance of departure from neutrality is a ground for disqualification. Because the rule is concerned with the appearance of bias and not the actuality, it is the perception of the hypothetical observer that provides the yardstick. It is the public's perception of neutrality with which the rule is concerned."

Sums up succinctly what this is all about.

otb,

It's not just Mr Shorten and Labor but - as with all political parties -
they undoubtedly select platforms that they feel will
win them votes with the electorate. For example, Mr Abbott and
the Coalition did precisely that with choosing
the "Carbon Tax," and "Stop the Boats,"
issues during the last election.

If the electorate would not have been concerned about those
issues - they would not have been raised.

Of course politicians don't always get the mood of the
electorate right as history has shown.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for that quote - "straight from the
Horse's mouth," so to speak.

It does then sum up the situation succinctly,
as you put it.

His position appears to be untenable.
He now has to do the right thing.
Justice must not only be done.
It must be seen to be done.

I dare say that the Justice will resign. He's an
intelligent man and he must realise that if he
stays he would be throwing away the good reputation
he spent a lifetime acquiring.

Foxy,

"I dare say that the Justice will resign. He's an
intelligent man and he must realise that if he
stays he would be throwing away the good reputation
he spent a lifetime acquiring."

Actually, I think you're right.

He's got nothing to gain by staying (under the circumstances) - and everything to preserve by resigning.

Hi there FOXY & POIROT...

As much as it pains me to say, I'm inclined to agree with you both. He should seriously consider stepping aside, and have government appoint another equally eminent jurist to step into the role of Royal Commissioner. If for no other reason, of giving the appearance of total neutrality both to the installation of the RC himself, and the Commission, in toto.

Compatrots Foxy and Poirot, this old lefty says; Heydon will not resign yet I hear what you say and certainly agree, he should go!

Dear Poirot and O Sung Wu,

I guess only time will tell what decision
the Justice is going to make.

We'll probably not know until sometime next week.
However, I don't think he's got much choice
if he is to retain his credibility especially
since his own words give him no other choice.

You're right FOXY, he really has no choice if he wishes to retain the eminence in which he's held by most of his fellow jurists.

Back to the topic.

Much of Malcolm Turnbull's support seems to be
coming from those who say they will not vote
for the Liberal Party under the current leadership.
However the question to be asked is - would a switch
to the former leader do more than any of the alternatives
like Julie Bishop, or Scott Morrison, improve the
Coalition's prospects?

Malcolm Turnbull still trails Mr Abbott amongst conservatives.
Many don't like his stance on climate change and his support
for same-sex marriage.

It's a conundrum. Malcolm Turnbull has firmed as the public's
choice of Liberal Leader - while the Coalition vote has gone
backwards since the PM survived a leadership spill motion
in February. This is a choice that Liberal Party MPs are
faced with - whether to go to the next election under Mr
Abbott's leadership or choose another leader amongst the
available alternatives.

What the left whingers are forgetting is that for a judge to recuse himself, the apprehended bias needs to be substantive.

http://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/civil/disqualification_for_bias.html

"Judges should not accede too readily to applications for disqualification, otherwise litigants may succeed in effectively influencing the choice of judge in their own cause:"

The commission at hand is complicated by being direct to public, so the public does not get second hand news. so you could say the commissioner has been judged by many thousands of viewers.
This taken into account he is doomed and has shyt in his own nest.

Hi Foxy, Turnbull would attract many (a majority) of swinging (non committed voters) plus as new leader he would enjoy a honeymoon period. If I was him I would push myself front and center along with a higher profile for my deputy Julie Bishop, who I believe has strong voter appeal. I would make all sorts of conciliatory noises on major issues, climate change, gay marriage, economy, etc etc. I would lock Tony and Joe in a soundproof windowless room, Morrison for Treasure, not much choice there, reshuffle the cabinet, not much choice there. Call a snap election to "let the people decide" as soon as it was clear I have my nose in front that is. Another 3 years. Although those National are always going to be a problem along with a number of my own, gee I'll appoint Tone to the High Court or make him the Ambassador to Iceland. Joe would do well at the World Bank or some such place. Long term I would try and attract good Liberals and new blood from the states Mike Baird for eg would fit nicely into the Ambassador to Iceland's old seat.

Shadow, i don't think that spplies to Royal Commissions as they have no litigants.

Aidan,

The litigants are the unions. The caveat is to prevent every single judge being forced to resign through phantom perceived biases.

Timing is often a key weapon in politics, obviously.
The time between the start a new Royal Commission and announcement of the findings might mean voters will not really know about BS until after next years (2016) national election.

With the acid test of Abbott's leadership about to unfold, the people of Canning WA are to pass judgement in a by election 19th September. Things are hotting up, it has come to light that the 'Rambo' candidate for the Liberal Party Andrew Hastie led troops that were involved in cutting off the hands of Afghan fighters, according to Hastie "his troops had done what was appropriate,", All rather abhorrent to the good folk of Canning.

Why twist the truth. Liberal candidate Andrew Hastie was on a flight when the hands were cut off for identification. He was a soldier at the time, not Rambo. And my guess is the hands were cut off dead corpses, absolutely different to a head being cut off a living person.
Taliban use improvised explosive devices knowing that they blow the legs and/or balls etc off their victims.

When might we hear news from the point of view of the alleged 16 year old rape victim who accused Shorten?

Whatever party wins the Canning election, will Malcolm Turnbull or Bill Shorten try to HELP world economic recovery by generating PRODUCTIVE business and employment and prosperity so there is less poverty and unrest and war?


http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/liberal-candidate-andrew-hastie-says-he-has-been-cleared-of-wrongdoing-in-afghan-war-incident-20150822-gj5b5h.html

Can you define what sort of identification would be involved by cutting the hands off a person. Why not a finger.

The Hastie anomaly, at the time of the scurmish Hastie was in the air albeit above the skirmish area, most likely directing actions from a vantage point. An inquiry held behind closed doors is not a good look let alone dictating what gets reported.

Which finger? Which finger is which finger when the others are not there to be seen? Which finger might be on file?
Anyway I do not agree with such departmental approved lack of respect for the dead.

Why not cut off economists and fix the world economy with common sense so there is prosperity and peace?

Was it a charter helicopter? LOL

[Deleted for abusive language.]

Mr Hastie said he was in a helicopter above the scene — and not on the ground — when the incident happened.

Good leaders take the blame not pass it on.

doog.

Nowhere near the incident.

For the first time, Captain Hastie also revealed that not only was nowhere near an incident, he was in the helicopter.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/canning-candidate-captain-andrew-hasties-rage-at-fairfax-smear-over-taliban-war-crime-accusations/story-fnii5s3y-1227494279022

Okay folks about time to get real.

Captain Hastie was in a helicopter orbiting the operations area and in command of his troop. Within that troop was a Corporal who removed the hands of three Taliban fighters.

The Geneva Convention Article 15 directly proscribes such an act.
“"At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled."”

The ICRC's rules of customary international humanitarian law include “Rule 113. Each party to the conflict must take all possible measures to prevent the dead from being despoiled. Mutilation of dead bodies is prohibited.”

And finally our own rules;

“The ADF's Law of Armed Conflict states that: "The remains of the dead, regardless of whether they are combatants, non-combatants, protected persons or civilians, are to be respected, in particular their honour, family rights, religious convictions and practices and manners and customs. At all times they shall be humanely treated and protected against pillage and despoilment."”

And just in case some of you morally barren Abbott supporters are still trying to justify the actions of the corporal please remember this, the intelligence unit that told these particular soldiers that it was permissible to sever the hands of these fighters was disbanded.

The matter was “taken extremely seriously by the ADF and by the International Security Assistance Force that has overall command of international troops in Afghanistan”.

Cont...

Cont...

The Australian command in the area at time withdrew all SAS operations for a period of a week while the matter was dealt with, much to the chagrin of the US forces.

“The ABC understands it took three days for the senior command at Tarin Kowt to realise what had happened, but as soon as it was known an operation pause was put in place. The pause, which lasted a week, upset the US command as it had a direct impact on a broader ISAF operation that included US forces.”

In my mind Hastie certainly needs to answer some questions about his own conduct because something doesn't ring true.

Was he present for the briefing of his unit by the now disbanded intelligence unit? If so did he counter the assertion it was okay to despoil a body? If he didn't then we assume he was okay with their directions, if so why would he have reported the corporal's actions up the chain of command?

If he wasn't at the briefing then why not? In most cases that would be regarded as a failure. If a soldier under his command went 'rouge' then I wouldn't have been directing blame his way but this is significantly different. If it wasn't his responsibility that Australian troops were taken out of a vital operation for a week then whose is it? His Lieutenant? A Major?

The Liberal Party are spectacularly good at dodging responsibility, just look at the record of our Wheat Board being the world's largest funneller of illegal funds to the Hussain regime. Not a single politician's head rolled. If there is not more light shed on his actions and a better explanation from Mr Hastie then I think he is going to fit right in.

I think the lefties are going to get us.

I'm dizzy just from watching them spin. I must admit this SteeleRedux bloke can out spin most of them. His bulldust is so thick you couldn't wade through it.

I am so glad my son has resigned from the navy. Most of this lot are not worth defending.

Dear Hasbeen,

Lol.

I swear, stick you in front of any decent sized windfarm and Australia's energy needs would be solved in a flash. I'm sure there are one or two OLO posters who could give you a spell on the odd occasion but you still remain our chief blowhard.

As to spin it seems when you are faced with a few hard facts you spin on your heels, cross your arms, and say Hurmph!

Well mate if you want to claim what I have written was bulldust you at least have to challenge something, anything. You didn't because as usual you couldn't.

My father was a naval officer and he was in charge of a team of naval clearance divers. They were some seriously hard nuts but I would give you this for free my friend, there is no way in the world they would have thought despoiling the corpse of a fallen foe was acceptable as you seem to do.

Oh! I think I have unintentionally opened a can of worms on this one. 'Hatchet' Hastie was hovering above in a helicopter directing "operations" at the time. Was Bronnie Bishop on board, were they heading to a Liberal Party fundraiser? I'm sure the helicopter was taxpayer funded, please explain.

SteeleRedux, are you crazy?
Captain Hastie is the one who reported the matter.

Captain Andrew Hastie, 32, has revealed in his first public speech to the WA Liberal Party that he ordered the investigation into his own troops and was personally cleared of any wrongdoing.

“It is true as reported that I wasn’t at the scene of the incident when it happened. I was in fact above and away in a helicopter orbiting overhead,’’ he said.

“When I became aware, I did what I was required to do and promptly reported the incident up the chain of command

YOUR Sun newspaper.

In his address, Mr Hastie directly confronted media reports that he was the commanding officer He confirmed that he had not been at the scene at the time, but was instead in a helicopter overhead.

of a troop of soldiers investigated after amputating the hands of Taliban fighters to use for identification.

Make up your mind J/F which way u want it.

doog, please correct you wording and sentences and ask your question properly.

Dear JF Aus,

These are the words of Mr Hastie;

“I can say with great confidence that those soldiers involved directly with the incident were acting in what they believed to be the appropriate process laid out by defence.”

If he himself believed that at the time they were acting in the 'appropriate process laid out by defence' then why did he report the incident?

The answer seems to be that he was not aware that his troops held a view of acceptable behaviour contrary to his.

As the Captain in charge of this troop of 30 men that surely falls within his area of responsibility.

A direct question for Mr Hastie might be 'Do you believe removing the hands of a fallen foe is acceptable behaviour for members of the ADF to engage in?'

'If not then how was it that members of a unit under your direct command came to hold the view that it was acceptable which directly resulted in halting Australia involvement in an ongoing operation for a week and for a member of your unit being still under investigation? Do you accept any responsibility for that occurring?'

I think Bill Shorten should absolutely answer questions about what occurred while he was in charge of his union and to be held to account. Why should this be any different?

Captain Hastie did not remove the hands and he was away from the incident when it happened.
If the taliban had uniforms and dog tag identification under rules of war there would probably be no need for fingers.

Did Capt Hastie know it was ok at the time? If he did, why would he report the matter? Is it a rule to report removal of hands for identification under such circumstances?

As for Bill Shorten, the alleged rape is a separate issue to union funds and it wod be best if he completely cleared the air on the matter if he wants to be the PM.

JF Aus,

"If the taliban had uniforms and dog tag identification under rules of war there would probably be no need for fingers."

Since when is it necessary to collect "fingers" off dead bodies for identification?

If ID is "so" important, why are their no DNA kits provided?

"And" what are the chances of prints being successfully recovered from dead hands somewhere down the track? - the lapse of time, its effect on the dead tissue, and atmospheric conditions are hugely important here - not to mention contamination.

JF Aus - can you provide this forum with details of the "data base" which would supposedly give information to our forces for the "iffy" identification by fingerprint of the detached hands of fighters?

Or do you just believe any old story trotted out to glide over the controversy?

Poirot,
I understand our forces might seek positive identification in some cases to establish if they have killed the leader or some other key individual they have been seeking.
The Taliban are dressed as civilians, obviously without identification, this is no clearly defined war.

Obviously if our forces have hit their key man they stop wasting time looking further. They obviously stop using helicopters looking for people who are confirmed dead by fingerprinting or whatever other means. Do you understand Poirot? Nobody I know of except you Poirot, has indicated they fingerprint all dead Taliban.

Did I mention a data base? I think they could match print data after they raid the home or base where the target was frequenting prior to death.
Probably they use DNA for serious cased like Bin Ladin.

I am not a defence expert but I am becoming somewhat of an expert from reading people like yourself Poirot, using whatever non sense you can spin to discredit members of the present government. Are you one of Shorten's union army mentioned in some papers?

Why Poirot are you not ripping into the Taliban and their bombs that blow the genitals off human beings? They even kill innocent girls that dare go to school?

Why not commend Hastie for having the guts to be a sitting duck target up there in a helicopter.

JF Aus,

It's apparently quite difficult to take prints from a deceased person - and the conditions have to be optimal. Forensic teams go to a extreme lengths to attempt such a thing - and often fail even when the conditions are near perfect.

I suspect that the condition of the hands would have been far from that in the middle of a torrid theatre of war.

"...Do you understand Poirot? Nobody I know of except you Poirot, has indicated they fingerprint all dead Taliban."

Gawd!...that was my point, JF Aus

There is no comprehensive database, even if they could get prints of those hands.

I think the explanation for the taking of those hands is bollocks.

"I am not a defence expert but I am becoming somewhat of an expert from reading people like yourself Poirot, using whatever non sense you can spin to discredit members of the present government. Are you one of Shorten's union army mentioned in some papers?"

Goodness me, an "expert" no less.

Yep, well I'm growing accustom to your simple-minded retorts on here too, JF Aus.

They're quite something!

Poirot,

Try this for a simple-minded retort.
You do not need to lower yourself with ad hom when you are unable to provide sensible reply. If my retorts are simple as you claim, give me an example if you can. I might then be able to elaborate to enlighten you.

As for fingerprinting, there is no problem for about 3-4 hours, until rigor mortis sets in.
http://www.ehow.com/how_8431441_fingerprint-dead-rigor-mortis.html

I think our armed forces go on patrol or mount missions when fighting the Taliban and accordingly they do not sleep in trenches or camp near the enemy overnight. SAS likely return to base by helicopter, including with fresh evidence. So freshly killed enemy fingers would not be difficult to fingerprint. If i am incorrect please let me know. RIP that Taliban.

I think taking hands would infuriate the enemy but perhaps sometimes such things have to be done. In comparison, look at what the Taliban does as a matter of course.

How do you think Malcolm Turnbull would handle such need for fingerprints, compared to Bill Shorten?
There is now digital fingerprint technology but carrying weight of fragile extra equipment for rarely needed fingerprints, instead of carrying extra ammunition, I think would be out of the question.

Try to give Mr Hastie some respect for doing his job and doing it as best he could.

JF Aus,

"You do not need to lower yourself with ad hom when you are unable to provide sensible reply...."

Oh you mean like these ad hom's you sprinkled around earlier on this thread?

"SteeleRedux, are you crazy?"

"doog, please correct you wording and sentences and ask your question properly."

"....I am becoming somewhat of an expert from reading people like yourself Poirot, using whatever non sense you can spin to discredit members of the present government...."

(hypocrite)

It's a dubious proposition to suggest that hands of deceased fighters, taken hurriedly in the field in Afghanistan, and transported willy-nilly to any sort of ad hoc lab, would be in any condition to be fingerprinted by the time it was convenient to do so.

This is my point.

It's not as if these "fingers" were undisturbed in situ at a crime scene where forensics could carefully use techniques to attempt to recover prints.

Dear JF Aus,

What on earth is this?

“How do you think Malcolm Turnbull would handle such need for fingerprints, compared to Bill Shorten?“

The Australian high command thought so little of this method they shut down operations for a week. There has been an investigation ongoing for over 2 years into the incident. The International Security Assistance Force that had overall command of international troops in Afghanistan was said to have taken the matter “extremely seriously”.

I would hope and expect both Turnbull and Shorten to have taken the matter extremely seriously as well. What would you rather they do?

You however seem to want it as SOP.

Well what is the next step? Perhaps this?

“A Gurkha soldier of British troops in Afghanistan has been ordered to return and is facing court martial after he decapitated a dead Taliban fighter with his ceremonial knife to prove the militant's identity. The soldier, who is in his early 20s, initially told investigators that he unsheathed his khukri - the symbolic weapon of the Gurkhas - after running out of ammunition, army sources said. But later the Taliban fighter was mutilated so his identity could be verified through DNA tests.”
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/gurkha-soldier-removed-for-beheading-taliban-man/article1-574242.aspx

Is this okay in your book? It certainly isn't in mine.

Cont...

Cont...

Then there was this little gem from you;

“Why not commend Hastie for having the guts to be a sitting duck target up there in a helicopter.”

I have no idea of the bravery of Hastie although I suspect it is very high, but to intimate that he was presenting himself as a sitting duck by being “above and away in a helicopter, orbiting overhead” (Hastie's words), is inane. By far the biggest threat to life and limb from being in a helicopter in Afghanistan was from mechanical failure or pilot error. Of the very few claimed by enemy fire most were taken out by RPGs either on or just above the ground such is the bereft nature of the military capabilities of those they were fighting. I suspect those in his troop on the ground fighting at close quarters might have a different idea of what constituted the safer situation between his and theirs.

I believe Hastie did have a case to answer when someone under his command broke the rules of engagement and caused the Australian contingent to be withdrawn from the battlefield for a week compromising an ongoing operation. Failures obviously occurred.

Now he may well have answered that case in a military setting but he also has to answer it to the people of Canning. I think he is being badly advised, he needs to park the jingoistic clap trap and speak frankly about the incident without hiding behind the Abbotts and Bishops and Bolts of this world

No wonder defence force recruitment is becoming much harder.

Even an idiot can see most of our lefties are not worth defending.

Why would any sane person risk their lives, or serious injury when they are likely to come back, if they do, to a ruined country, controlled by ratbags.

yep the left will always back sleazy lawyers and academics who have never done a thing for this country except to trash it. You are right Hasbeen. Once I thought I would be prepared to defend this nation but with so many lowlifes (mainly from the left media) one wonders why anyone would. They continue to line their pockets with tax payer money and then trash any sort of decency. No wonder we have so many UN officials flying around in jets telling the average aussie that he/she is selfish for heating their houses. They really make you vomit.

Dear Hasbeen,

You'll have your chance at the next election to get
rid of the ratbags currently ruining this country.
Perhaps then we may have a better chance of getting
the right sort of leadership. Leaders who are
up to the job. Not ones who just want the job - and
will do anything to get it - on both sides of politics.

We have a leader who is hell bent on doing things as he sees fit without proper consultation or guidance from his party, why is this the case ,does he think his nominations would not pass scrutiny or does he think his colleagues are not capable of judgment as he is.

Whatever it is something has to give eventually. I feel it is the latter. On the 23.08.15 Abbott visited one of Au’s media men Kerry Stokes. Why is this necessary to bring down a jet plane to visit someone at their mansion in Broom, when he has a report on media business from the ACMA with their proposals for Re Regulation of media and broadcast laws.

Is not Turnbull supposed to be in charge of that, or does our PM think its better he and kerry handles it, then again there may be other things at play. How many would be politicians in Canberra is there that get paid for doing nothing, because Abbott wants the lot.

"a ruined country, controlled by ratbags."

Damn straight.

Finally Hasbeen talking some sense.

Lol!...Hasbeen.

We certainly are controlled by ratbags at the moment.

I can see you're hankering to come over into the light - just a jump to the left.....

I never give any credit to The Mad Monk, Tax Em' Tony or Tony Baloney but I have to give credit where credits due to Tony Abbott for taking the time to visit the remote island of Mer in the Torres Strait and paying his respects at the grave of Eddie Koiki Mabo. Abbott paid tribute to Mabo saying, "He (Eddie Mabo) was a giant of your island and of your people. He was a warrior who fought for justice and now he rests amongst the other warriors of your people. He was your father, your brother, your kinsman and he's our citizen." Well said Tony.

Na Poirot, I'd never make it with the green left.

I can't spin fast enough, or lie with a straight face.

I'm not much good at ripping off rank & file union members either, so I'm just not suited for it.

LOL, one minute Poirot and SteeleRedux have got Captain Hastie directly above the theatre of war seemingly watching the hands being cut off, and therefore they indicate Capt Hastie is an accessory to the alleged mutilation.

Next Poi and Steel infer helicopters are so high and far away they are safe from ground fire and only crash due to mechanical failure, the latter that is probably claimed by allies to stop the enemy getting credit.

This thread is about Turnbull and I think also about the opposition leader. So why not ask what Turnbull and Shorten would do about the Hastie situation, about the suggestions being bandied about against Hastie here on this thread, dirt about him being selected for the Liberal seat?

With Bin Ladin they took the whole body.

I hope Turnbull gives Hastie a medal for having to cope with all the un-Australian criticism.

I only asked SteeleRedux the question. I did not say it as fact, as you do with your simple mindedness ad hom, Poirot.

Poirot they don't need forensic teams or a lab to take fingerprints. They just need as many fingers as possible, palm prints too, and a clean dry place without being shot at, such as back at their base within a few hours.

Give Mr Hastie a break and respect.
And have a look at the question doog tried to ask, the sentence is cyber-broken up and I don't understand the question.

Anyway back on topic, maybe Turnbull will be the same as Abbott if the extreme right of the Liberal Party is still calling the shots.

What about Julie Bishop as PM? Or Anthony Albanese?

JF Aus,

"LOL, one minute Poirot and SteeleRedux have got Captain Hastie directly above the theatre of war seemingly watching the hands being cut off, and therefore they indicate Capt Hastie is an accessory to the alleged mutilation. and therefore they indicate Capt Hastie is an accessory to the alleged mutilation."

Please link to any post where Poirot cites:

".....Captain Hastie directly above the theatre of war seemingly watching the hands being cut off..."

"Next Poi and Steel infer helicopters are so high and far away they are safe from ground fire and only crash due to mechanical failure, the latter that is probably claimed by allies to stop the enemy getting credit."

Please link to the post where Poirot infers:

"...helicopters are so high and far away they are safe from ground fire and only crash due to mechanical failure..."

More baloney from a poster who doesn't care what he says, regardless of whether or not it has any veracity.

"Poirot they don't need forensic teams or a lab to take fingerprints. They just need as many fingers as possible, palm prints too, and a clean dry place without being shot at, such as back at their base within a few hours."

Yes they do if they're dealing with dead bodies or body parts - and as I mentioned, goodness knows what condition those body parts would be in once they've been dragged through the turmoil of war in outback Afghanistan.

"Anyway back on topic, maybe Turnbull will be the same as Abbott if the extreme right of the Liberal Party is still calling the shots."

Turnbull will only get up if the "extreme right" lose control...and seeing that Rupert is wining and dining Morrison of late, it doesn't look like they're going to give up without a fight.

Abbott and his inept government continues to take a hiding in the polls. The latest 'Newspoll' of 1700 voters has Labor leading the Coalition 54/46. Given the long term disastrous polls, plus Abbott's continuing personal low popularity rating with voters, a loss in the Canning by-election would be the final nail in the coffin for Abbott and Turnbull would make his move sooner rather than later. The Liberals controlling faction, the extreme right 'Uglies', would have little option other than to let the hated Turnbull take the reins. Turnbull would move quickly to redirect Liberal policy on a number of fronts. Any failure by Turnbull would see the extreme right white anting him in favor of Morrison.

It's amazing how the subject moved from who should be PM to arguing the toss about whether or not a Liberal candidate was involved in the removal of the paws of some Islamic terrorist animals - you know, those people who whip off the heads of men, women and children at the drop of a hat; the same creeps who burn people alive in cages.

He could have minced the creatures up, and fed them to the dogs for all I care. Perhaps if some of the whingers and whiners here had taken part in deadly combat against people of the sort Captain Hastie was up against, they might shut their gobs and show some respect for our brave soldiery.

Dear Hasbeen,

You kind of have a point there, when the Liberals steal it is often off their own, and politely described as 'overspending', that is until it gets just too obscene to ignore.

Quote;

A SENIOR Abbott government senator and Tasmania's future premier knew about Damien Mantach's overspending before he was appointed the Liberals' Victorian state director. MR Mantach had to repay $47,981 to the party's Tasmanian branch after his time as state director, before he went on to steal more than $1.5 million over four years from the Victorian Liberals.

Tasmanian Premier Will Hodgman - who was then opposition leader - said he and Senator Eric Abetz were told in 2008 that Mr Mantach had to repay the money when he left the state. "I was spoken to and briefed ... and appropriately so, as was Senator Abetz as the leader in the federal parliament," Mr Hodgman told the parliament on Tuesday.

"We were briefed by the senior members of the state executive as to Mr Mantach incurring a liability, that liability being repaid and Mr Mantach's employment concluding.

End quote
http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/news/national/vic-libs-probe-printing-payments/story-fnjbnvyf-1227497373187

Isn't 'overspending' such a gentrified euphemism.

Dear ttbn,

What of gob full of ignorant jingoistic garbage.

The Taliban are not ISIS and as nasty as they are their body count in Afghanistan is a mere shadow of that inflicted by Western powers.

There have been instances of Taliban beheading prisoners but they are very few and nothing of them beheading “woman and children at a drop of a hat”.

On the rare occasion beheadings do take place the Taliban leadership at least acknowledge them as “contradictory to rules of engagement”.

Cont..

Cont..

Quote;

“The Taliban admitted that its fighters beheaded seven Afghan soldiers during clashes last week in the northeastern province of Badakhshan. The Taliban acknowledged that the beheadings are “contradictory to rules of engagement,” but then justified the gruesome acts as revenge for Afghan soldiers mutilating Taliban fighters.
In a statement released today on Voice of Jihad, the Taliban’s official media outlet, the jihadist group said it “launched its usual investigation” of the reports of the beheadings “as part of its Islamic and humanitarian responsibility.”
...
The Taliban claimed that after a clash on March 20 in the Wardoj district, “the invader nurtured mercenaries [Afghan soldiers and police] brutally shot the martyrs in the face to the point they were unrecognizable in violation of all principles of Islam and humanity as well as all established rules of war.”

End Quote
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/04/taliban-admit-to-beheading-afghan-soliders-in-revenge.php

When news that Australians such as those in Mr Hastie's troop have been found to be acting “contradictory to rules of engagement” the main response was the AFP was called in to discover who leaked it. There is no acknowledgement that the rules had been broken by Abbott and ilk when they patently had. This should be beneath us.

I want my government to be far better than the Taliban because I believe sincerely that on the whole Australians wish to see our military uphold the highest standards of professionalism and probity, which to a large degree they do.

It is a weak kneed populist prime minister and the Bolts of this world who are pandering to jingoistic clowns like yourself and as a consequence pissing whatever moral standing we have left up against the nearest wall. People like you who are determined to mince Taliban fighters up and feed their remains to the dogs. What a disgusting, miserable and pathetic sentiment, one unworthy of any decent Australian.

You sir are a blight.

Steele, could not agree more with your sentiments regarding the comments of ttbn "He could have minced the creatures up, and fed them to the dogs for all I (ttbn) care". This is the type of person who agrees with Abbott as he pontificate on the richestness of the war, and the virtues of Australians in a conflict some 11,000 Kilometers from home. What are we fighting for? If it is for no other reason than to act in unison with our perceived "enemy" the Taliban.

Poirot, I have not quoted you directly.
Stand back and look at the discussion.
You have been passing the ball so to speak, while playing the same game toward the same goal as/with SteelRedux.
You did not actually make such comment but I think by lack of adverse comment you do infer the situation SteelRedux is stating is correct.
You have not challenged him in any way so I have commented toward both of you.

Presently I now anxiously await your comment or no comment about Taliban having their face shot off by Afghans nurtured by invaders. Will you again seemingly support the SteelRedux comment?

What is such Taliban propaganda doing on this thread anyway, a thread about Turnbull that has led to comment about the new Liberal candidate.

I wonder Poirot if you will now come to your senses and change sides and direction toward discussion that has now expanded to faces being blown off because of invader nurturing.

JF Aus,

"Poirot, I have not quoted you directly.
Stand back and look at the discussion.
You have been passing the ball so to speak, while playing the same game toward the same goal as/with SteelRedux.
You did not actually make such comment but I think by lack of adverse comment you do infer the situation SteelRedux is stating is correct.
You have not challenged him in any way so I have commented toward both of you."

Well that's just not good enough....You can't run around here saying people posted things when they haven't - just because you decide to collectively lump opinions together.

This one takes the cake....

"What is such Taliban propaganda doing on this thread anyway, a thread about Turnbull that has led to comment about the new Liberal candidate."

JF Aus, you were the one who introduced the "Taliban" to this thread.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6963&page=0#212916

"Why twist the truth. Liberal candidate Andrew Hastie was on a flight when the hands were cut off for identification. He was a soldier at the time, not Rambo. And my guess is the hands were cut off dead corpses, absolutely different to a head being cut off a living person.
Taliban use improvised explosive devices knowing that they blow the legs and/or balls etc off their victims."

And here....

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6963&page=0#212974

"If the taliban had uniforms and dog tag identification under rules of war there would probably be no need for fingers."

You end your inane post with:

"I wonder Poirot if you will now come to your senses and change sides and direction toward discussion that has now expanded to faces being blown off because of invader nurturing."

(Let's reprise the final line of your paragraph above from halfway through the thread, shall we...)

"Taliban use improvised explosive devices knowing that they blow the legs and/or balls etc off their victims."

You get 10 out of 10 for hypocrisy.

Come, come JF Aus, the Canning by-election is critical to who will be PM thereafter. It is 'Hatchet' Hastie the Liberal candidate and his success, or lack of, which will determine if Abbott is to survive in the top job, at least in the short term. A defeat in what is a blue ribbon Liberal seat could only spell disaster for the PM.
Hastie has been touting his "war service" as a means of obtaining voter favor, claiming his combat skills will benefit the Canning electorate, just how I don't know! As one seeking political office Hastie has to expect attacks and questioning from the other side of politics. All's fair in love and politics!

Steeleredux,

As Hasbeen has already said, people like you are not worth defending. You do not deserve Australin citizenship if, in fact, an anti-Australian like you has it now. Shame on you!

Poirot,
The cut off hands Poirot, I was not the first to raise subject of Taliban on this thread. Who belonged to the hands Poirot, did they not belong to a Taliban? Who Poirot?
They were Taliban hands.

You Labor cyber spin doctor cronies should not be slandering returned Australian servicemen or women.

If you want Labor to win the next election then get a respected leader to replace the backstabber who put the public wish re Albanese out the vote and put himself in.

And I see Poirot you are still not passing or dropping the ball regarding the comment above from SteelRedux, you have said nothing about who shot up the faces.
I noted from a comment at the URL that SteelRedux provided, that IS may have done that shooting.

Mentored by the invaders indeed. How outrageous.

Okay JF Aus...the subject came up - and was related to Abbott's leadership, seeing that Hastie is obviously the stuff of Abbott's fantasies - and most likely another "Captain's Pick".

Just above, you seemed incredulous that we found ourselves discussing the "Taliban"!

(Notwithstanding your attempts to derail the discussion with your jibes re Shorten)

And yet you jumped at the chance to mention the "Taliban" and got stuck right into the technical detail - with relish"

"Taliban use improvised explosive devices knowing that they blow the legs and/or balls etc off their victims."

"If the taliban had uniforms and dog tag identification under rules of war there would probably be no need for fingers."

"I think our armed forces go on patrol or mount missions when fighting the Taliban and accordingly they do not sleep in trenches or camp near the enemy overnight. SAS likely return to base by helicopter, including with fresh evidence. So freshly killed enemy fingers would not be difficult to fingerprint. If i am incorrect please let me know. RIP that Taliban."

"I think taking hands would infuriate the enemy but perhaps sometimes such things have to be done. In comparison, look at what the Taliban does as a matter of course."

And...

"And I see Poirot you are still not passing or dropping the ball regarding the comment above from SteelRedux..."

I'm not beholden to comment on posts from other posters. Are you asked to pass judgement on other posters and their posts?

No you're not. You get to choose the posts with which you engage.

I must say I do like this...best hypocrisy yet.

"I did not say it as fact, as you do with your simple mindedness ad hom, Poirot."

Lol! JF Aus critques Poirot's "ad hom" with an ad hom.

Well done!

Poirot you are playing on the field that is this thread so why don't you comment fairly without political favour?

I went on to detail Taliban behaviour in order to counter accusation about Capt Hastie's whereabouts above and AWAY from the scene, and his later reporting of one of his team getting fingerprints.

The on and one stuff about the Taliban involves the new inference by SteelRedux suggesting invaders teach the shooting up of faces.

Do you think it at all possible that SteelRedux could actually be on a keyboard in Afghanistan, or that he might be a Taliban?

There was a bit on tv this morning about social web pages whipping up sympathy from ill informed young people. I think the alleged face shoot up could certainly generate such sympathy in some people too young to know reality.

What side are you on Poirot?

JF Aus,

"Do you think it at all possible that SteelRedux could actually be on a keyboard in Afghanistan, or that he might be a Taliban?"

Lol!

And why, after complaining that this thread has morphed into a discussion about the Taliban - are you still talking about the Taliban?

And....

"Poirot you are playing on the field that is this thread so why don't you comment fairly without political favour?"

Gawd - you mean like you?

"Timing is often a key weapon in politics, obviously.
The time between the start a new Royal Commission and announcement of the findings might mean voters will not really know about BS until after next years (2016) national election."

"When might we hear news from the point of view of the alleged 16 year old rape victim who accused Shorten?"

"As for Bill Shorten, the alleged rape is a separate issue to union funds and it wod be best if he completely cleared the air on the matter if he wants to be the PM."

"I hope Turnbull gives Hastie a medal for having to cope with all the un-Australian criticism."

"You Labor cyber spin doctor cronies should not be slandering returned Australian servicemen or women."

"If you want Labor to win the next election then get a respected leader to replace the backstabber..."

How about all those, Mr "comment fairly without political favour"?

(Hypocrite)

Dear ttbn,

We both have visions for the kind of Australia we want. Mine is one where we stand proud as a nation adhering to international law not only the letter but the spirit. One in which we can be justifiably proud of our Armed Forces and their conduct in the battlefield just as I was when I read this during the Gulf War.

“Australia’s F/A-18 pilots defied the orders of American commanders and refused to drop their bombs on up to 40 missions during the invasion of Iraq, it can now be revealed. In a remarkable account of how our airmen applied Australian rules of engagement, an RAAF pilot has told The Sun-Herald each of the 14 RAAF Hornet pilots aborted three to four bombing runs because intelligence given at pre-flight briefings did not concur with what they found at the target.”

This apparently upset the US command but our own high command backed the pilots with Peter Cosgrove quickly stating that there would be no recriminations for the actions of our pilots. That our rules of engagement are set at a higher standard than the US forces is something no Australian should baulk at, except for people like you.

Your vision for our nation is one where we should be comfortable having the bodies of dead Taliban fighter minced up and fed to the dogs. Why? Because you are afraid. You want any perceived threat to your safety eliminated by what ever means possible.

I want the best of part of us to be who we are and you want the worst of us. It is you and your kind with your irrational fears that bring us shame and degrade us. You are intent on harming the regard with which Australia is held domestically and internationally, and it is sentiments like the one you have expressed that signal a traitorous cancer we need to combat if we are to continue be proud Australians.

Poirot, I am standing up for Hastie and Albanese. How is that politically hypocritcal?
In any case I am over this waste of time discussion. Cheers.

Dear Paul1405,

Just flagging mate that I'm uncomfortable with the term 'Hatchet' Hastie. I don't think it reflects who you really are and is serves to assist dragging the debate into places where some on this thread are more than happy to see it.

To be clear I am not impressed by Hastie's conduct as a candidate. He seems to have very adopted an Abbott style of pugnacious which does him no favours. Perhaps it is the product of being thrown in the sharkpool of Australian politics but the considered calmness that one might expect of a former Australian Officer is missing. Perhaps it will come with a little more time.

Mike Kelly has been known to get himself in some hot water recently having to apologise for a rash tweet, but his record as a former soldier, including his unmasking of the AWB scandal and his reporting to the Australian authorities about the abuses in Abu Garhib, did not lead to him making the kind of self-serving statements that we are hearing from Hastie.

But be that as it may I don't think he warrants the moniker 'Hatchet'.

I do realise that this is coming from someone who can be as intemperate as anyone here so take it as a personal viewpoint.

Steeleredux,

What a lot of sanctimonious rubbish. I accept reasonable opinions from all quarters, but you are beyond the pale embedding yourself in the Left-crank gang.

Fear? You are the fearful one, more fearful of what foreigners think of Australia than you care about Australia itself. The rest of the world barely knows where Australia is, pal; those who do don't send much time thinking about us. Islamic terrorists and the local wannabes think that Australia is a pushover, thanks to bigmouths like you. Thankfully, even Labor wouldn't give any credence to your nonsense. I find you absolutely pathetic

Dear ttbn,

Let's see, I'm supposedly a pathetic crank because I believe in an Australia that should be able to stand tall among civilised nations while you are apparently the true patriot because you want to mince the bodies of Taliban fighters and feed them to the dogs?

Perhaps we acknowledge we have different value systems and leave it at that.

Hi SteeleRedux, yes I take that comment, re Mr Hastie, I will refrain from such derogatory comment again, but on the other hand, (sorry for the pun) Mr Hastie sees an advantage in peddling his war record as being a benefit to the people of Canning, and a vote winner for him. So if he cops some flack from some quarters over his touting of his record, then he can expect that as he was quick to use it, hoping to gain political advantage from it. Sorry for being so heavy handed on this one (there I go again).
My understanding speaking to a Muslim friend about it, only today, the removal of the hand had more to do with Islamic belief, and a violation of that belief, than anything to do with later ID.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-22/wa-state-liberal-conference-to-focus-on-canning-by-election/6716360

Reading today's SMH, Abbott's office pushed for Washington to request that Australia extend its air strikes from Iraq into Syria. Now Abbott is touting it as a Obama administration request, and is considering it, next week Abbott will give it the go ahead. The warmonger Abbott is such a hypocrite, as more civilians will die because of it.

Paul,

The SMH hates Abbott as much as you do, and is not necessarily believable. We should not be involved in Syria, but how would deaths to civilians by us be worse than the already considerable losses caused by Islamists? Their slaughter is OK?

Steeleredux,

OK. But I cannot say that I will never comment on your fifth-column opinions against Australia. I don't "want" people minced and fed to dogs: I said I didn't care. Unpleasant things occur in war, particularly those against fanatics, who are the cause of the current problem. And I take strong exception to anyone critcising their own country and troops when they are remarkedly silent on the daily atrocities of Islamists.

ttbn, I don't hate anyone no even Tony Abbott, and now and then I will make a positive post about Abbott as i did just the other day on this thread. its on page 14.

Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 25 August 2015 6:36:02 PM

I never give any credit to The Mad Monk, Tax Em' Tony or Tony Baloney but I have to give credit where credits due to Tony Abbott for taking the time to visit the remote island of Mer in the Torres Strait and paying his respects at the grave of Eddie Koiki Mabo. Abbott paid tribute to Mabo saying, "He (Eddie Mabo) was a giant of your island and of your people. He was a warrior who fought for justice and now he rests amongst the other warriors of your people. He was your father, your brother, your kinsman and he's our citizen." Well said Tony.

The SMH is very much part of the establishment and reports the news fairly in my opinion. Unlike the rubbish in its Sydney competition Murdoch's NoNews Very Limited publications.

Like so many you fall into the trap, what atrocities we commit are negated by the atrocities the enemy commits. Distorted logic to me.

Dear ttbn,

And I can not say that I will never comment when you commit treason by trying to justify acts that erode the values we have as a nation and denigrate our sense of worth as citizens.

Or if you felt like it we might just dial back the blind jingoism (yes I've been at it too to a degree, it's just that I might be a little more seasoned at it than you), so we could both get back to reasoned debate. I will leave that in your court.

And just for the record while you might not care what is done in our name I do. Primarily because behaving within the rules of international law and more importantly the standards we have set for ourselves is simply the right thing to do.

There is another reason though, incidents like the one under discussion not only served to halt operations and reflect badly on the professionalism of our military, but they undoubtedly would have impacted on our relationship with the local Afghan forces. This directly puts Australian lives at stake as the propaganda value for those seeking to turn soldiers to commit acts against our troops is given real currency.

Why would anyone want to see that danger increase?

Paul1405, "The SMH is very much part of the establishment and reports the news fairly in my opinion"

You will do yourself a mischief being astride that picket fence. You want to leave yourself the 'out' to flog the SMH as 'establishment' when its reports don't suit your politics.

A frank, honest answer would have recognised that while the news sections of the major newspapers are generally reliable and far more credible than the 'independents', the media are more about entertainment.

The ABC's Q&A program stands out as a recent example where the senior management admitted that yes, it is just a show and scripted and manipulated as any other entertainment. It was a pity that some took it all literally. They even opposed Q&A being moved to the News division for some mild applications of the rolled up newspaper across the nose when its unpublicised informal editorial policy became too obvious.

All are in a rush to the bottom as tabloids and yes, they do spin one way or the other to sell to their audience. It is amusing how many people want their world view and opinion confirmed, only reading what they already 'know'(sic).

The print media, radio and TV too, foolishly believed that the internet would not affect the monopoly (in effect) that they enjoyed for years because Australian population is spread among coastal capitals and once a paper was established it was impossible for any other to break in.

'The Australian' and some other newspapers, some weeklies or monthlies, offered an alternate and sometimes a deeper, more balanced view. That was obviously necessary for sales.

Paul,

Yes? After you referred to Abbott as a "Mad Monk", "Tax Em Tony" and "Tony Baloney". I'm sure you really love the man. Oh, and you also called him a warmonger, even though he has mongered no wars. Incidentally, I hold no torch for Abbott, as I 've said many times. I think he is weak (pink) and I object to his poncing around around with minorities instead of running the country. I also respect your opinion of SMH, but that opinion is being held by fewer and fewer people as sales plunge. And, no, I do not justify atrocity with atrocity. My beef with you "logic" is that you damn only your own side.

Steeleredux,

You present as a very strange fellow. The "treason" is all with you, if you mean what you
say. In your last post, you referred to me as a "patriot", while you have bashed Australia ever since you graced us with your prescence.

I'm not sure why you think you are "seasoned". With no intent to put you down, I have to say that your views seem to come from immaturity and inexperience. If you feel guilty about what is "done in (your) name", you alone will have to deal with that feeling; but, do you really think that Australia and the incumbent goverment would be doing anything in the name of a person with your views? You will, I think, have to wait for a socialist government to satisfy you, such is the nature of democracy.

Dear ttbn,

I have a habit of mimicking the tone used by others. If you want to go jingoistic them I'm happy to play in that pigpen too. If you want to bandy around terms like un-Australian then I'm happy to throw a charge of treason your way.

Do I think it is edifying or conducive to solid debate? Of course not. Is it mature? Well it's about as mature as talking about mincing up Taliban bodies and feeding them to the dogs. But if that is the arena you want for the discussion I'm sadly not above it.

Now how about you showing me where I have bashed Australia in this thread. Are you really contending that questioning the despoiling of bodies is bashing Australia?

Or is it a case of me 'bashing' your version of Australia, the one you would like us to become? One where any questioning of the actions of our military is regarded as un-Australian? There are plenty of counties whose people do just that, one of them across the Pacific, thankfully we are not there yet.

ttbn,

"...Oh, and you also called him a warmonger, even though he has mongered no wars..."

Not for the want of trying.

The latest example being of him badgering Obama to be allowed to bomb Syria.

A few months back he embarrassed a group of visiting US military men at a dinner with talk of wanting to take Oz forces unilaterally into Iraq.

Then there was his Ukraine sabre rattling.

It's easy to laugh his fantasies off - as most people with any heft have done up till now. Finally the US has acceded.

'According to sources, while President Obama did raise the subject of Syria, the PM basically pushed for an invitation to join in. So this was less a formal rallying of an ally and more of a "um, sure, you can come if you want, I guess…"'

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/view-from-the-street/view-from-the-street-tony-abbott-invites-himself-to-uss-syriabombing-party-20150826-gj8es5.html#ixzz3jzrIcJwi

I mean really...a try hard with a Churchill fixation is the last thing our country needs.

Add that to his fetish for hanging out with uniformed men - and we note he's wasted $10 million dollars dressing up our customs officers in new military style uniforms - militarising anything he can get his hands on, in fact...it's pathetic.

One could dismiss him as a Walter Mitty character, if he wasn't in such an infuential position.

As it stands, he's a dangerous twerp with a penchant for all things warlike.

Remember the title of his book?

"Battlelines"....

Steele,

I don't believe that I have ever used the term "un-Australian" but don't let that worry you - you don't seem to care that you are wrong about most other things either.

Poirot,

Did Abbott really ask to bomb Syria, or was it the media who said he did? It is unlikely that you heard it first hand so, like me, you don't know whether it is true or not. Until there is firm evidence, I'll ignore it. I am not as gullible as some. Bagging Abbott all the time - or any other politician for that matter - doesn't affect me. I don't like any of them.

Beach, unlike those that would silence free speech, given the chance, where do you sit on that, I wonder. I have no problem with the establishment newspaper 'Sydney Morning Herald', which I still buy a copy of daily. At times it does publish articles which are politically critical of the left side of politics, and the Labor Party and the Greens. Again, I have not problem with that, its all part of that freedom of speech we enjoy.

ttbn, on Abbott "I'm (ttbn) sure you (Paul1405) really love the man" No I did not say that, I said I didn't hate him, there is a difference. A bit mystified by your reference to Abbott as "pink". Pink as in pinko a shade of red, or is it pink as in girly pink. Then there was the objection to Abbott "poncing around around with minorities". I assume that was to do with my praise of the man for visiting the Torres Strait islanders and Eddie Mabo's grave. Joh Bjelke-Petersen once accused Eddie Mabo of being a black communists for having the audacity to fight for justice for his people, was Eddie "pink" in your view? Would you praise Old Joh?

Paul1405.
Times have changed. The SMH is not longer the same, it is not run by the Fairfax family with their integrity.

Just a few days ago I sent the SMH a "statement to the media", about people being savaged and sometimes killed by sharks now more hungry than ever known.
The SMH did not question me or publish the information of substance I gave them.

The SMH is not reporting now obvious fact that algae is warming Arctic waters or huge areas of ocean and perhaps the whole ocean. For years the SMH has been flogging CO2 emissions trading and alternative energy while virtually gagging the real state of Australia's marine environment.
It is not being reported why Australian people now need 70 percent of their fish imported.

Why is it so? How is it possible a supposedly respected Australian journal's like the SMH can fail to report information that swimmers and consumers have a right to know? How can collapse of local seafood supply sustainability, be kept out of news media?

People might be blaming political parties or individual politicians for inaction generally, when in reality key information is kept under the table by major media.

I think many people are still relying on media polls about the 'establishment'. However consumers are often questioned in a poll when in reality they have not been informed of key information concerning the issue the poll is about.

On this thread I vote for ttbn and onb.
And I think, Paul, you are grossly incorrect wasting your money on the SMH. I stopped buying the SMH due to being brainwashed just about every day with Marion whatever going on and on and on about CO2 and emissions trading. I agree that's my choice.

The SMH is not the responsible and fair paper it used to be

Paul,

Interestingly, the Murdoch press has been doing it's thing quite well lately.

If otb is going to critique Fairfax, then it's only fair to examine the cringe-worthy conduct of its rival.

"Burwood girls high did not receive a single complaint from parents of students at the school regarding its plan to screen a documentary on gay parenting, Guardian Australia can reveal."

"“The school has not received any complaints from Burwood girls high school parents,” the department said in a statement.

After the plans made front-page news in Sydney’s Daily Telegraph, Piccoli said on Wednesday the film, part of the Wear it Purple Day campaign aimed at supporting LBTGIQ students, would need to be shown outside school hours."

"The Daily Telegraph claimed there had been “a backlash from parents”.

The story was accompanied by a comment piece headlined “Gay push should be kept out of schools”."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/26/sydney-school-received-no-complaints-from-parents-about-gayby-baby-film

The story below was completely fabricated - even down to a quote from a unionist- (original story now removed from site).

"VICTORIA Police have confirmed that there was not a raid at the CFMEU offices in Melbourne yesterday morning.

A report on heraldsun.com.au incorrectly reported that the raid had occurred.

The report said Taskforce Heracles, which was set up to investigate claims raised in the Royal Commission, had visited the union’s Swanston Street offices. The error was made by the reporter."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/police-confirm-no-raid-on-cfmeu-headquarters/story-fni0fit3-1227501542943?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HeraldSun&utm_medium=Twitter

Lol!

The Abbott roadshow rolls on. A remote school says Abbott was wrong to claim the installation of truant officers were to credit for school kid attendance.

The school says Abbott is ill-informed because attendance at school has been the same before and after.
It seems odd that our PM can get so much wrong, are these people being paid enough to warrant better performance, or is he overloaded with to much work. Seeing he is the party it could be overwork.

doog,

Not to mention the trifling matter of Border Force now patrolling the Melbourne CBD with police....a natural progression of course from the the spiffy new uniforms...

http://newsroom.border.gov.au/releases/abf-joining-inter-agency-outfit-to-target-crime-in-melbourne-cbd

"“ABF officers will be positioned at various locations around the CBD speaking with any individual we cross paths with,” Mr Smith said.

“You need to be aware of the conditions of your visa; if you commit visa fraud you should know it’s only a matter of time before you’re caught out.”"

Abbott's fascist dream fast becoming reality.

(No doubt, this Orwellian set up will go down a treat with many of the folks on OLO)

Abbott, Araldite and dynamite
Disposing of a prime minister is not something that should be undertaken lightly. It should only occur when it is determined the people have stopped listening. When that happens to a political leader, they may as well pack up and go home.

You mean this has not happened already, Abbott spruiking tax cuts for the next election. Seems this mob have lost all will power to do anything for themselves.

Why the long delays to do anything surely you don't need an election to make tax cuts. What is this supposed to prove. They are not giving time frames for these cuts, but somehow they reakon they need approval to give tax cuts

As the SS Abbott has hit the economic and political ice burg, Captain Tony is in a dither as to what to do before the un-seaworthy vessel sinks at the next election without a trace.
The latest push from the mutinous crew is to dump first mate Cokey Joe Hockey over the side. Two cabinet ministers have told Fairfax Media that talks over axing Hockey have been held. This will certainly be on the cards when the Canning by-election results roll in, it would be nothing more than a desperate attempt to shore up Abbott's leadership, and try and keep Turnbull at bay, at least in the short term.

Poirot,

As the operation fortitude was organised by the Victorian police under Daniel Andrews are you suggesting that Daniel Andrews is a fascist? As talking to people on a street corner is now fascist behaviour, then Getup and their minions should learn the goose step.

It however, was good to see the racist and protectionist policies of the labor/CFMEU being slapped down by Hawke and Carr, who made Shorten look even more like a union stooge than before.

As for bombing Syria, Australia did request that the US present Aus with a formal request to join the campaign, but only after Obama made an informal request to Abbott.

As for the SMH, it has always been well left of center, and has just been caught out over egging the cake. I would guess that its rapidly shrinking share of news readership is largely due to this.

I also see that Dyson has swatted aside the feeble but noisy calls for him to stand aside. I look forward to many more union and labor thugs being exposed as corrupt crooks.

As Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 19 August 2015 11:28:02 AM

Malcolm Turnbull for Prime Minister Sooner Rather Than Later. I fully expert Turnbell will be Prime Minister of Australia come this time tomorrow. I could see that clearly a month ago.
Unfortunately, many rabid conservatives like OTB cannot see the failure that the Abbott/Hockey government has been, calling my post <<From the Greens Protest Party, rumour-mongers and purveyors of endless crap.>> the blokes a political know nothing.
the ultra rights ttbn chimes in with <<The only people who want Turnbull as PM are Labor voters>> a reminder ttbn, they will be no Labor people voting tomorrow, another with no political nous what so ever. I have totally given up on Shadow Minister ever giving a creditable political opinion. Runner another right wing ranter who knows nothing about politics.

All I can say to the forum conservatives; How did you ALL get it so WRONG?

The Abbott/Hockey regime is a TOTAL FAILURE and a GONER!

p/s The Liberal Party has no choice, they have to vote for Turnbull, otherwise they will be seen as so divided they would lose the next election in a landslide.

Hockey was just on telly giving Turnbull a huge serve.

I feel a DD election in my waters. The LNP will win it with Turnbull.

In other words, the LNP will not win a DD with Abbott.

I'm surprised Turnbull challenged so soon. I'd expected him to either wait till near election time. Or possibly to wait until after losing the election and then trying to rebuild the party in his own image.

But despite Turnbull's track record, I'd be amazed if he's still reckless enough to triggeer a DD. There's no issue on which he can do so where his party's position is more popular than the government's. Even calling a normal election early is risky — it backfired on Gillard and Rudd.

JF Aus

Abbott couldn't win a chook raffle if he was the only one with a ticket. As an progressive I want Turnbull, but as an anti-conservative I want Abbott. I'll put the good of Australians first, I want Turnbull. If the Labor Party had a vote then Abbott would romp in. Is Tone bring alone the National this time? LOL.
The result in the blue ribbon Liberal seat of Canning WA is going to be interesting. If Abbott was to get up tonight then the Liberals can write Canning off as a loss. If Turnbull should win then it will be a Liberal win but by how much its hard to say.

A master stroke by Turnbull to crap all over Abbott today, work out why, but it was a very good move. Hockey is a fool, played right into Turnbull's hands, he knows he is a dead duck if Turnbull wins.

Right at this very moment this is about whether or not Australia moves forward or continues going nowhere.

Turnbull 54/44 How else could the Liberals vote. Can't say i'm sorry to see you go Tone.

Paul,

Considering that you have been predicting the downfall of Abbott continuously for 6 years eventually you had to be right. 50 strikes against you and 1 for you.

Farewell Tony you were the best PM in 8 years and achieved more in 2 yrs than Labor/greens in 6 yrs.

It is time for the policy-free Labor Opposition to get out its dirt file on Turnbull.

However the clock must be ticking for Wee Willie Shorten aka 'Whatever She Says'.

That is if the other ex-Gillard ministers can find enough bottle to oust him and instal another plotting Emily's Lister, this time Plibersek.

The argument in favour will be gender-based campaigning - the claim by Emily's Listers that 'women will always vote for women'. That is absolute cr@p of course and patronises women, but it is a view that has appeal in some quarters, to the aged feminist dinosaurs of the previous Millenium. -Who never wake up to educated middle class opportunists like Plibersek and Penny Wong who have piggybacked the women's movement for years for their own personal benefit.

Watch out for those gelding shears Wee Willie, for they are a-comin' to get you, 'Sooner than Later'.

Now if they get rid of those clowns Hockey & Dutton, they'll stand an excellent chance of winning the next election.

@ otb,
Watch out for those gelding shears Wee Willie, for they are a-comin' to get you, 'Sooner than Later'.

LOL.

As the dust settles, the forums little band of sycophantic Abbott supporters from the rabid right must be feeling rather shell shocked following Mondays palace coup. Hopefully Turnbull's takeover will see a new beginning for conservative politics in Australia, at least at the federal level. I am not totally opposed to Liberal governments, in fact in my home state of NSW I consider the Baird government is doing a reasonably good job, despite some glaring stuff ups with hospitals, education and transport, but is preferable to the Labor rabble led by Luke Foley.
Australia's flirtation with arch conservatism, in the form of 'Abbottism', should now be at an end. It is Turnbull's job to see that this happens, sooner the better. Cutting the head off the viper is not enough, there are those in and out of government that Turnbull will have to deal with, starting with Cocky Joe Hockey, who has to go, that is a foregone conclusion! However there are a number of other Abbott failures who also need to be dealt with, Andrews and Abetz to name but two, there are others, who guard their power jealously, and are going to prove difficult to dislodge, and not all of them are in parliament.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/malcolm-turnbull-begins-building-his-cabinet-as-tony-abbott-goes-to-ground-20150914-gjmotp.html