AJP: offenders do not consider the consequences of their actions at all, or seriously miscalculate the risks when they do; so to that extent, it is accurate to simply say that the death penalty doesn’t deter.

True. But the Death Penalty does get rid of Societies rubbish permanently. It also saves the tremendous expense of looking after them for the rest of their lives.

AJP: only certainty and swiftness seem to have an effect.

Yes, I believe the Bali Nine should have been tried in a week & executed in the following week. It would have solved this drawn out circus instigated by the Media.

AJP: It was also once "obvious" that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it.

There are a few people on OLO that still believe that. ;-)

AJP: If anyone's interested in deterrence theory and what the data actually says, then I would recommend reading some peer-reviewed literature.

The trouble is with some peer-reviewed literature is that it's some persons personal view backed up by like minded peoples view. It has the semblance of believability but so does someone's opposite view backed up like minded peoples opposite view. It really doesn't mean much. Their opinions are as good as mine if I have a group of like minded individuals who agree with me.

Dear Is Mise,

I'm starting to wonder if you can really be this dense.

Perhaps we should take this slowly and see if anything clicks.

In the first couple of years of kitesurfing we lost quite a few riders, 24 in one year from memory. I got myself pretty badly trashed a couple of times, once pissing blood for a very long, rather torrid evening. My reward? Mastering a sport that was in its infancy and gave loads of pleasure along with the occasional terror.

Most of us know that if we stick a couple of knives into a toaster to free a piece jammed bread while the toaster is still we face a real chance of serious harm. But there are a few who, even knowing the likely consequences, do exactly that. The potential reward? A slice of toast.

Hearing the back stories of the others of the Bali 9 is a case in point. There was really little trouble in getting the crew together for this job.

Scott Rush (19) was applying for the Airforce but he decided to go for a night on the town with a mate Michael Czugaj (19) who he use to play footy with in high school. While out they met a bloke named Tan Duc Thanh Nguyen (21) who talked them into the scheme.

Norman (19), Lawrence and Stevens all worked in the same catering firm as Chan. All were employed with regular work but even knowing the risk put their hands up to do a run to Bali. Few could be called seasoned criminals carefully weighing the risks but rather impetuous Aussie teenagers deciding to take a punt.

Their reward? Quite a bit of money.

Cont...

Cont...

I've done some pretty stupid things that may well have ended in my demise for zero monetary reward, and I'm ashamed to say there were times I put others at risk because of my actions. At the time though it was all about the thrill and little regard for the consequences.

But there is a whole lot of difference between somebody dying because of their own stupidity and having another human being deliberately loading a bullet into a firearm, taking aim and shooting someone else through the heart. Virtually all the Western nations of the world bar the US have decided that the sanctity of life far outweighs any nebulous gains of capital punishment. They see its abolition as a mark of civilised behaviour.

I would say if you flashed the promise of six months wages for a quick trip to Bali under many a young Australian's nose, even if you warned them there was a fair amount of risk involved, you would have little trouble finding another nine jumping at the chance. I'm just as sure there are any number of them doing that run right now.

Deterrence my arse.

Should they be murdered for it? Not in my book.

Dear Is Mise,

If you actually read the link I gave to the
article in the Jakarta Post and still think
that the death penalty in Indonesia is a
deterrent to drug traffickers there - then
you're obviously not interested in the facts
as presented by the Jakarta Post which makes it
quite clear that - according to the 2013 Annual
Report of Indonesia's National Narcotics Agency
(BNN) there were 260 drug traffickers arrested in
2013 and increase from 157 people in 2011 and
202 in 2012. These numbers show that while
the death penalty is continuously imposed and
executions are carried out, the crime of drug trafficking
shows no sign of abating.

It seems obvious that the death penalty does not deter
drug traffickers. The Jakarta Post also states that
in the past few years there have been cases where drug
traffickers were able to operate from inside the
prison. This indicates that they are not afraid of the
penalty because they can bribe prison officials
and other law enforcers. Hence the argument that the
death penalty carries a deterrence effect is implausible.

But there's more. Go back and have another re-read of the
Jakarta Post. This time with an open-mind. Perhaps then
you will understand the point that is being made regarding
the death penalty in Indonesia for drug traffickers.

Although I suspect, that you will not modify your judgements.
In any case - I am tired of arguing. I have no wish to
quarrel. I've done a tremendous amount of research on
the subject of capital punishment. Decisions about capital
punishment, are not really about deterrence. They are about
retribution - or in Indonesia's case currently - they're
political.

Let us leave it at that.
There's nothing more that I care to add.

Jayb,

<<But the Death Penalty does get rid of Societies rubbish permanently.>>

Not very reliably or fairly given the arbitrariness of its application in countries where it’s practiced.

<<It also saves the tremendous expense of looking after them for the rest of their lives.>>

It certainly doesn’t in the US, and I’m pretty sure an Australian model would look quite similar. Death row inmates can spend up to 25 years on death row and add to that the fact that cases seeking the death penalty cost at least double in court. The death penalty usually costs more that LWOP in the US and never less.

<<Yes, I believe the Bali Nine should have been tried in a week & executed in the following week.>>

Those on death row are there for a long time to ensure guilt and to wait for any possible future advancements or understandings that may find or make us aware of mistakes (e.g. DNA technology, the realisation that eye witness testimony is extremely flawed). Even a corrupt cesspit like Indonesia can appreciate this.

Many people in the US every year are taken off death row after it was found that they were innocent or not legally deserving of the death penalty.

<<The trouble is with some peer-reviewed literature is that it's some persons personal view backed up by like minded peoples view.>>

No, peer-reviewed literature requires evidence. A peer-reviewed paper can’t just be someone’s personal opinion. It needs to be backed up with a lot of evidence. The scientific method and the peer review process guard against what you seem to think happens too. On top of all that is the fact that academics get a kick out of picking out flaws in each other’s work and earning a name for themselves in the process.

The idea that millions of academics around the world are all so selfless and determined to maintain a particular view that they’ll sacrifice their chance at prestige in the name of some greater cause is beyond over the top and the stuff of conspiracies.

Folks,

Even if crime in general goes up there is no way that it can be shewn that punishment did not act as a deterrent, for the number of people deterred cannot be calculated.

Fear of punishment acts as a deterrent otherwise there is no point in having punishment.

Therefore the death penalty acts as a deterrent, if anyone can't see this then.....