Dear otb,

You were the one who brought up the kids where
"slut walks, welfare dependence and demonstrations
and the like are usual..." and now you appear to
have done a back-flip and attack me for calling
them "unfortunate." You can't have
it both ways. Why then did you bring them up
in the first place.
First you degrade them and then you
make up the falsehood that I am the one trying to
humiliate them in some way. Then you even bring
in that old chestnut - "feminism," into it.
Goodness me!

These are the kids needing
the most help and understanding.
Because kids need
good social skills in order to succeed.
As I clearly told you
in my previous post. If kids aren't learning
these basic skills at home,
we need to be teaching them at school.
They're the ones with problems not the ones
who are open, forthright, caring and polite - these kids
are not the ones with problems. The kids without manners will
lose out and never know why. And if you don't think that
would be unfortunate - then you're the one with the problem
not me.

Dear rehctub,

I've been making quite clear in this discussion that
it is about parents and teachers working together and
teaching children good manners and curtesy for others.
However, the problem is - that not all parents take
the time to teach their children the basics in social
behaviour - and that's where schools can come in and
help as Julie Bishop wants done.

Dear otb,

I meant to add that "thou protests to much, methinks."

If you are so pro the "traditiona" methods of raising
children then you would be very much for the teaching
of manners in schools for the children who miss out on
this in their home environment. But I suspect that with
you it's all a front to continue to dig your boot into
any good idea that is raised by a female - be it Julie
Bishop or myself.

Sad really - and shame on you!

Foxy, we are fast headed for, if not already there, to a situation whereby. not even our police can question a minor. So what hope would a school teacher have to questioning their manners.

Bringing back the cane would be a good place to start. A curfew for minors under the age of 15, say 10 pm would also make headway.

Dear rehctub,

I's not about teachers questioning children's manners.
It's about teaching by example. And it should
start at home (of course) and continue at schools.

I remember one of my teachers who knew the core truth
of education. "Self-hate destroys, self-esteem saves."
This principle guided all her efforts on our behalf.
She always minimized our deficiences, neutralised our
rage, and enhanced our natural gifts. She never so to
speak, forced a dancer to sing or a singer to dance.
She allowed each of us to light our own lamp.
We loved her. I remember one of her favourite
anecdotes:

"Brown and Green met after an interval of twenty years.
Brown was surprised to see Green so rich and
prosperous, for he had been such a backward student
in school. "How did you do so well?" asked Brown.
"Well," answered Green, "I knew I wasn't as smart
as the rest of you, so I looked for a simple business.
I found a product I could make for one dollar and sell
for five, and, believe me, over the years, these
four percents really add up."

We got the point and saw hope - even if we were not
geniuses.

All children need - are the right teachers.

rehctub,

I can just see it now,

How to instil manners 101.

Give 'em a damn good thrashing.

They'll be bowing and scraping and uttering please and thank yous in no time. (until they get out of earshot of their mentors:)

As I recall when I was merely a young detective in short pants, it was only the boys who were allowed to be caned....and funnily enough it was the same boys who always ended up sitting outside the headmasters office...and who proudly displayed their welts to the other boys when it was all over...kind of like a sore red palm-shaped trophy.

I'm still of the opinion that n class devoted to manners will have no fundamental effect on those kids who don't display them. Manners and respect for others should be upheld and reinforced in the daily life of school and across the entire spectrum of disciplines. That's much more likely to be experienced by the children as something of value in that they will reap the benefit of their interactions - as opposed to someone droning on in class with fictional examples.

Foxy,

With respect, you are modelling the deliberate murkiness, lack of accountability and duck-shoving that pervade the State and federal education departments.

If you really want to get to the root of the problems being encountered in schools you could listen to Preschool teachers talking about the minimum care children they get from both ferals and from double income professionals. They wouldn't say which are worse. 'Manners' instruction (although I reckon you are more about some of your usual themes) cannot address that.

Some teachers are part of the problem, but that issue presents too much fodder for one post.

The social experiments have failed and that should be the first priority for a comprehensive audit by someone independent.