I have just come across an article taken from
The Age, written in 2006 in which then Federal
Education Minister Julie Bishop stated that
schools have a duty to champion good manners,
tolerance, and respect.

Ms Bishop spoke of her days -
when the National Anthem was played at school
assemblies and values were taught in schools.

I thought this would be an interesting topic
for discussion and relevant to the way students
are educated today. I agree with Ms Bishop and
her criticism that students
were being taught all about their rights to the
detriment of their responsibilities.

Ms Bishop claimed that
teaching good manners would lead to calmer classrooms
and good relationships between teachers and students.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/teach-manners-in-schools-minister/2006/11/06/1162661617864.html

What do you think?

Of course good manners should be promoted and upheld in the school situation - as they should in all institutions.

However, to me the foundational learning environment for manners is the home where first interactions take place. It certainly not difficult to instil basic respect and values starting in the early years - and yes they should be reinforced wherever a child attends.

Just as an aside, my boy who's home educated obviously doesn't have to stand at school assemblies for the National Anthem (although his older sister did when she attended school)- yet he has an almost innate respect for such things - and on the occasions where we've attended ANZAC commemorations and the like, he's treated it as the solemn occasion it is - no prompting, he just knew from the example he saw around him.

The answer is 'Yes', but I hesitate because as soon as we say that something "should", the government turns it into a law.

I am personally grateful for the manners I learned in school, especially because we had an extraordinary teacher who knew well how to impart and explain them, but what constitutes proper manners can become controversial, so this should be at the discretion of each school and its availability of great and respectful teachers rather than be dictated from above. The worst manners can be acquired when teachers attempt to teach respect while being disrespectful themselves.

Manners should be taught at home, and then expanded upon at school.

However, Kids can be taught all the best manners in the world at home, but these can only really be tested when the kids are away from their home environment and interact with other kids and adults out in the wide world.

How else will they learn the effects of bad manners in a social or formal learning situation if they never experience bad manners around them?

So yes, manners should be taught at school as well as at home.

Giving schools --dominated as they by PC culture --the license to teach manners will just provide lefty teachers with another avenue of indoctrination. Given time i can envisage a whole raft of new manners embedding themselves ...like it is not right to eat pork since it offends some other students sensibilities.

And this has a nice pertinence:
<<Ms Bishop spoke of her days -
when the National Anthem was played at school
assemblies and values were taught in schools.>>

Nowadays there are schools where students think it proper manners not stand for the national anthem...and their teachers permit it.

The last thing we need is for something else to be added to the curriculum in schools. As it is, all too many teachers & schools are failing in their real job, to teach the 3 Rs.

Until we see kids coming out of schools literate in both English & math, it would be a better idea to weed out some of the garbage they do try to teach.

Now we could try to practice manners in schools, but that would require a major rethink in dress standards for teachers to start with. I have been amazed at what some teachers, yes particularly some ladies, consider appropriate dress standard to go to work, in this case school.

At a P&C meeting a while back a few mothers, not regular P&C attenders, came to complain about teacher dress standards. They said they were having trouble getting their daughters to wear school uniforms, when many of the younger lady teachers were wearing jeans & similar sporty clothes, more suitable for a picnic, than a day at work. Their daughters wanted to wear their jeans too.

I had a little trouble containing my mirth, until a few days later I looks around when at the high school, & by far the worst & most inappropriately dressed were some of the younger lady teachers, not the kids.

Setting a standard for manners would be hard, when the teachers have no respect for standards.

hasbeen,

I don't think teaching manners should be specifically "taught" as a discipline in the curriculum.

I just assume that it would be an innate part of the experience pervading the learning experience in general, whether it be in a school or any other institution..

Anyone who works with kids just naturally demands good manners in their presence surely?
I don't think singing the national anthem has anything to do with manners, and I don't think turning this thread into another racist rant is appropriate either SPQR.

That is very bad manners....

@Suze,

<< I don't think turning this thread into another racist rant is appropriate either SPQR.
That is very bad manners....>>

Talking of teachers Suze, you are getting to sound more and more like some old authoritarian schoolmarm.

Please tell me, Miss, where i used racism?

SPQR "Please tell me, Miss, where i used racism?"

It's Mrs. to you SPQR!

And if I tried to put all your racist comments in one post, I would go over my word allowance!

@Mrs Suze
You can't find any coz there aint any --aint that so marm ?

Are you sure it be Mrs :-/ ...you meeeeean, some god damn fool...

Good contribution Foxy. It's amazing how such a simple topic can still degenerate into false accusations and insults.

Of course manners should be taught in school as it once was unilaterally. Manners were taught generally through an example set by the teachers who also were expected to dress properly and keep themselves groomed tidily.

Many of the teachers today are young enough that they came through school systems that had already abandoned manners and discipline as essential to maintaining a higher quality / controlled learning environment.

I honestly doubt if most kids today could even provide the definition for manners. Respect has also been lost in the new age.

Thank You for all your comments.

With parents and children busier today than ever before
the teaching of good manners may be one of the things
that falls by the wayside. I personally feel that the
teaching of fair play, respect and good manners should
be part and parcel of a teacher's job. Teachers should
also set an example themselves in their behaviour and
dress. They should be role models that the young can
look up to.

Yes, I totally agree Foxy.
It is a pity however that we don't have more male teachers in the profession these days.
The boys in the classroom need male role models to show them what good manners are., as well as the girls.

SPQR, "Giving schools --dominated as they by PC culture --the license to teach manners will just provide lefty teachers with another avenue of indoctrination. Given time i can envisage a whole raft of new manners embedding themselves ...like it is not right to eat pork since it offends some other students sensibilities"

I think you are right and it is a sly Fox with considerable form in this area who imagines she has found a back-door way to achieve it. Then again it probably comes from one of 'those' sites.

Peter Hitchens courageously said on Q&A (that was predictably heavily loaded with the heroes and gurus of leftist 'Progressivism'), that the cultural war has been fought and lost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQY4BuYWD4s

As Hitchens and others have observed for years, there is no way that the cultural Marxists will ever be accountable for the unforeseen negative consequences of their social experimentation.

Feminists have partied long and hard and to incredible excesses since the Fabians' fool, Whitlam, rolled over and offered the taxpayers' teats to them, which they greedily seized and have swung from since. What about multiculturalism, a river of gold to buy votes in marginal seats.

As a taxpayer myself and a parent, I support all young workers and students who are rebelling against THEIR TAXES supporting the hordes of 'victims' and their flea-like lawyers and advocates that Whitlam legitimised and continue to be a dead weight on taxpayers.

Sorry, this should be clickable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQY4BuYWD4s

Foxy,

"With parents and children busier today than ever before
the teaching of good manners may be one of the things
that falls by the wayside..."

I don't believe that's any excuse for not instilling good manners and respect for others. Those qualities are taught through "living" them. If they are not "lived" then any contrived class designed to teach them is going to be of limited value.

I've got it all covered! Just follow the following YouTube, and she's apples!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRBVOsW3jrs

And if you are a Frank Spencer, and it don't work for you, then there is this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORXjaLLoIGg

Dear Poirot,

I totally agree. It starts in the family home
where children learn not only good manners but
also core values and ethics. If this was further
instilled in schools this could possibly reverse
the rudeness and violence that many feel has
become endemic among the young. I remember my
Scottish headmistress at the all girls' high
school that I attended and the national anthem
being played during our school assemblies as well
as her lectures even today. She was awesome (and
scary) but she left her imprint on all of us.

cont'd ...

I'll repeat what I've written in the past:

Every parent I know lives with the uneasy sense that
their children are growing up too fast, without clear
values or a real code to live by. While we spin our wheels
worrying about "reading, writing, and arithmetic" our
children may be missing the "real basics" like respect,
loyalty, and a sense of fair play. Survey after survey
shows that children who will be the best educated and
most privileged in human history, are too willing to do
anything it takes to "get ahead."

As far as teachers are concerned - most of the teachers I
know have a difficult job. Their pain comes from the
nature of life in school. Some of the teachers lose faith
and give up hope. Others clamor for reform. The more
radical seek to change systems in midstream. The more
conservative pursue palliatives. Meanwhile life in the
classroom marches on. There are children to teach,
parents to appease, and principals to account to. They
all make demands on teachers' time and energy. How to
survive with dignity is not a rhetorical question for
most teachers.

There's a story about a man in dire trouble who came
to his priest for help. The priest listened and
advised - "Trust in God. He will provide for you."
"Yes," answered the man. "But tell me what do I do
until them?"

Teachers ask similar questions. "How can I survive
until the system changes?" "What can I do today to
improve life in the classroom?"

Teachers are expected to reach unattainable goals with
inadequate tools. The miracle is that at times they
accomplish this impossible task.

Teachers have a unique opportunity to counteract
unkealthy influences in a pupil's early childhood.
They have the power to affect a child's life for better
of for worse. A childe becomes what he experiences.
While parents possess the original key to their
offspring's experience, teachers have a spare key.
They too can open or close the minds and hearts of
children.

We can all remember the ones who had a positive effect.

Of course manners start in the home.
My sons when they were preschool were expected to say hello to people
who entered our home and to not ask rude questions, and when asked by
a visitor to answer politely.
Also not being rude to their parents is the often excepted rule as we all know.

What I notice in shops etc is on their own teenagers and younger are OK
but when in a group they can be outrageous.
That is probably a good place for the schools to start.

So as expected Foxy you are just using the seemingly innocuous subject of 'manners' to springboard into a political ideology.

Have a chat with students and young adults and you will find that they are a wake-up to and resent the sly attempts to re-wire them as automatons for the political benefit of others.

It is no wonder at all that so many young adults are browned off about politics.

G'day there FOXY...

No, not necessarily 'taught' in schools, rather 'upheld' in schools. Surely it's the parents job to teach, and when necessary correct, the manners of our children ? Whereas it's the school's function to teach our children the appropriate academic subjects in order to prepare them for further training, both in secondary and later on, tertiary studies at TAFE or University.

From my limited exposure to 'tertiary learning', manners, dress and general decorum, are more or less ignored thereat ? Ostensibly because young people are considered as young adults, therefore it's often thought, it's a matter for themselves as to what standards they comply with or conform to ? Rather than those that are imposed upon them by some external influences.

Several visits to the UNSW Union Café, has shown me a series of 'behaviours' (from both sexes) more suited to that of Long Bay gaol, by the language and standards of behaviour exhibited by the students therein ?

I don't know, I guess I'm just a real 'square' and very very old fashioned, still don't manners 'make-ith' the man ? (sorry about the spelling?)

Dear Bazz,

Thank You.

I'm pleased that we agree on this issue.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Yes, we often see the results of the bad behaviour
of some of the young both in the
newspapers and on television. It becomes tragic
when this turns to violence with serious consequences.

I agree with Julie Bishop's strong feelings
on this problem -
and although it may not solve everything - it certainly
can't make things any worse. Teaching fair play, respect,
and good manners as she points out - would be a good attempt
to reverse the rudeness and violence that many feel have
become endemic among some of the young. As she points out
this issue should be above politics. All governments,
ministers, and especially those concerned with education
and the kind of society we should strive for in this
country -
should support the teaching of good manners, etiquette,
core values, and ethics, in schools and organisations.

Dear otb,

Thank You so much for raising the subject of
"political ideology." This broadens the
discussion. You encouraged me to do a bit
of research on the subject.

I agree that many voters
(not only the young) are disgusted with today's
politics. And who can blame them. Take a look
at the behaviour of our politicians. Ever
watched "Question Time?" They certainly could
do with lessons in manners. All of them.

Ben Pobjie has written an article on that very
subject - it talks about the need for Australia
to consider the
importance of good manners - especially the
behavioural standards in our legislatures. Many
voters feel that Parliament nees an improvement in
manners. Pobjie points out - "just a few minutes
spent watching parliamentary proceedings will
demonstrate that normal procedure is for every
declaration by a member to be met by catcalls,
hooting, sneers and guffaws from the opposite side."

"The basic hallmark of politeness allowing a person who's
speaking to finish without interruption is completely
absent from the average MP's worldview."

"It would be nice if Parliament could clean itself up
a little and shift standards in the direction of truth
in debate and away from juvenile idiocy ... but our
elected leaders insisted to do the
opposite."

And name-calling - another tactics of a six year old
springs come - "Electricity Bill," "Juliar,"
"Typhoon Tony," "Ju-leech" (Julie Bishop),
"Knobend" (Christopher Pyne), and so on.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/14/australia-lets-talk-about-manners-again

What kind of an example is this being set by our leaders
for our young people?

Foxy,

You may be taking the article's author too seriously. From the fish wrapper, 'Ben Pobjie is a Melbourne writer and comedian'.

Here is a funny excerpt from (Pobjie's) Bob Carr's Diary,

"Bob Carr's diary: the outtakes
Amazed by the mess left in the foreign minister’s office by Kevin. He has chewed almost every chair leg in the place, and the desk is full of Mexican walking fish. I can see I have a lot of work in front of me to turn this place around. Made a good start by gathering all the department staff together and singing them an aria from Tristan und Isolde. I think they got the message. Many were moved to tears.."

As for the manners of young Australians I must say that my experiences are overwhelmingly most positive. They are open, forthright, caring and polite.

But then I do not move in circles where 'slut walks', welfare dependence, demonstrations and the like are usual.

Have to admit though that some young relatives have had to undertake postings in country areas that were once gentle and lovely, but have fallen to a certain drunken lawless element on 'sit-down' money who have nothing but contempt for the teachers, medical staff and other professions who are sent there. Any proposal to teach manners would miss the mark and be criticised as 'discrimination'.

I agree with Peter Hitchens when he says that the Western democracies are fast going down the drain. Although Hitchens is usually focusing on the UK, Australia seems to ape their social policies in particular.

I also agree with Hitchens that the cultural war was lost long ago and the best that can be done is to observe and record the slide.

Come to think of it, many of the very nice, well qualified and responsible young adults I know are either heading off overseas or are planning to. I guess they are smart in keeping their goals up front and giving the social messes (and the leftist 'Progressives who are responsible) the big swerve.

Dear otb,

What I am taking seriously is the topic of this
discussion. Ben Pobjie is a satirist. So no,
I am not taking him too seriously. You
raised the topic of politics - Pobjie's article
was relevant. But I'm sure that you know that.

Young Australians who are "open, forthright, caring,
and polite," are not the ones who need to be taught
manners.

It's the ones that you mention (and seem
to know much more about than I), the ones you
knowingly described - where "slut walks, welfare dependence,
and demonstrations and the like are usual."
Makes me wonder where you get your information from
if you don't mix in those kind of circles.

However,

They're the unfortunate ones and the reasons why
we should teach manners and etiquette in the classroom.

Kids need good social skills in order to succeed.
If kids aren't learning these basic skills at home
(and obviously the kids you describe are not), we need to
be teaching them at school. Otherwise through subtle
social signals these kids without manners will lose out
and will never know why.

Foxy, "They're the unfortunate ones.."

'unfortunate'?!

How fast you are to provide excuses to relieve your treasured 'victims' of any responsibility for the own decisions.

The negative consequences of the cultural war that the feminists and other leftist 'Progressives' have already won are all about, in the proliferation of fatherless families and parent (include grandparent) alienation, for example.

"How bold we are to assume that devaluing men won’t have a negative effect on the world at large. How bold we are to assume that it won’t hurt all of us, not just men."
Elizabeth Hanna Pham, “In Defense of Men,” New Feminism

Now you want more taxpayers money to interfere some more in the education system, ramping up the very policies, individualism (to take another example), that are at the foot of the altered values, social collapse and general harm to youth.

I am sure that as the urgers, supporters and useful idiots of the cultural war retire from their comfy guvvy funded sinecures, or even continue on welfare as so many do, they are going to find that the new 'diversified' culture they wrought is not going to be as supportive of them as the previous 'traditional' Aussie culture and values they despised and threw out with the bathwater.

In short Foxy, the leftist 'Progressives' will have to get used to the teens and adults of the infants whose lives you changed forever.

Of course there are probably many here who for years have been warning of the likely inheritance of radical feminism and progressivism.

Simple answer to the question is no, manners should be taught at home then encouraged and reinforced at school.

Of cause the do-gooders have made sure that won't happen, so I guess as a society, we are what we sew. The hands off approach to discipline in my view has been a failure, evidence being in the vast majority of disrespectful teenagers we now have to encounter.

Well at least our own kids are polite, well mannered and respectful, but then again, we didn't listen to the do-gooders, nor did we allow their persistent interference to undermine what we thought as the best way to raise our children.

Our daughter appears to be following on from where we left off with regards to disciplining our grand son.

rehctub,

You are right of course, children need precise boundaries set by their parents, parents available in their formative years and immediate consequences for transgressions (moderated by judgement, which well meaning parents get right most of the time).

The family unit and other 'traditional' (a word used as an insult by feminists and 'Progressives') values and institutions have been under assault for years. Piece by piece the 'traditional' learning and good child rearing, nurturing and developmental practices - products of trial and error over many generations - have been sledged, ruthlessly undermined and eventually undone, stripped away.

The architects, spruikers and useful idiots responsible for the current mess are not 'fessing up though. No Siree!

Dear otb,

You were the one who brought up the kids where
"slut walks, welfare dependence and demonstrations
and the like are usual..." and now you appear to
have done a back-flip and attack me for calling
them "unfortunate." You can't have
it both ways. Why then did you bring them up
in the first place.
First you degrade them and then you
make up the falsehood that I am the one trying to
humiliate them in some way. Then you even bring
in that old chestnut - "feminism," into it.
Goodness me!

These are the kids needing
the most help and understanding.
Because kids need
good social skills in order to succeed.
As I clearly told you
in my previous post. If kids aren't learning
these basic skills at home,
we need to be teaching them at school.
They're the ones with problems not the ones
who are open, forthright, caring and polite - these kids
are not the ones with problems. The kids without manners will
lose out and never know why. And if you don't think that
would be unfortunate - then you're the one with the problem
not me.

Dear rehctub,

I've been making quite clear in this discussion that
it is about parents and teachers working together and
teaching children good manners and curtesy for others.
However, the problem is - that not all parents take
the time to teach their children the basics in social
behaviour - and that's where schools can come in and
help as Julie Bishop wants done.

Dear otb,

I meant to add that "thou protests to much, methinks."

If you are so pro the "traditiona" methods of raising
children then you would be very much for the teaching
of manners in schools for the children who miss out on
this in their home environment. But I suspect that with
you it's all a front to continue to dig your boot into
any good idea that is raised by a female - be it Julie
Bishop or myself.

Sad really - and shame on you!

Foxy, we are fast headed for, if not already there, to a situation whereby. not even our police can question a minor. So what hope would a school teacher have to questioning their manners.

Bringing back the cane would be a good place to start. A curfew for minors under the age of 15, say 10 pm would also make headway.

Dear rehctub,

I's not about teachers questioning children's manners.
It's about teaching by example. And it should
start at home (of course) and continue at schools.

I remember one of my teachers who knew the core truth
of education. "Self-hate destroys, self-esteem saves."
This principle guided all her efforts on our behalf.
She always minimized our deficiences, neutralised our
rage, and enhanced our natural gifts. She never so to
speak, forced a dancer to sing or a singer to dance.
She allowed each of us to light our own lamp.
We loved her. I remember one of her favourite
anecdotes:

"Brown and Green met after an interval of twenty years.
Brown was surprised to see Green so rich and
prosperous, for he had been such a backward student
in school. "How did you do so well?" asked Brown.
"Well," answered Green, "I knew I wasn't as smart
as the rest of you, so I looked for a simple business.
I found a product I could make for one dollar and sell
for five, and, believe me, over the years, these
four percents really add up."

We got the point and saw hope - even if we were not
geniuses.

All children need - are the right teachers.

rehctub,

I can just see it now,

How to instil manners 101.

Give 'em a damn good thrashing.

They'll be bowing and scraping and uttering please and thank yous in no time. (until they get out of earshot of their mentors:)

As I recall when I was merely a young detective in short pants, it was only the boys who were allowed to be caned....and funnily enough it was the same boys who always ended up sitting outside the headmasters office...and who proudly displayed their welts to the other boys when it was all over...kind of like a sore red palm-shaped trophy.

I'm still of the opinion that n class devoted to manners will have no fundamental effect on those kids who don't display them. Manners and respect for others should be upheld and reinforced in the daily life of school and across the entire spectrum of disciplines. That's much more likely to be experienced by the children as something of value in that they will reap the benefit of their interactions - as opposed to someone droning on in class with fictional examples.

Foxy,

With respect, you are modelling the deliberate murkiness, lack of accountability and duck-shoving that pervade the State and federal education departments.

If you really want to get to the root of the problems being encountered in schools you could listen to Preschool teachers talking about the minimum care children they get from both ferals and from double income professionals. They wouldn't say which are worse. 'Manners' instruction (although I reckon you are more about some of your usual themes) cannot address that.

Some teachers are part of the problem, but that issue presents too much fodder for one post.

The social experiments have failed and that should be the first priority for a comprehensive audit by someone independent.

Dear otb,

Thank You for your opinion.

I have a brother who's a school principal.

Cheers.

G'day there POIROT...

Well I'll be damned, you too were a copper ? Now that's a real surprise I must say. Good on you !

o sung wu,

Sorry mate, I was just exercising a little license and playing on my OLO nickname - Poirot - you know.

So, no, not a detective. Thanks for the response though.

Cheers : )

Foxy,

"I have a brother who's a school principal."

It abounds it seems. My brother is a high school science teacher and my half-sister is a primary school teacher. My cousin was a high school English and language teacher, although now a head of department lecturing at uni on health and nursing practice...all the rest of the close family are accountants.

I'm the only fictional "detective".

Dear Poirot,

A teachers skills play an important part in a
child's education and yes - manners should
be taught by example. Some teachers often
use tactics similar to those they try to
eradicate in their pupils. They raise their
voices to end noise. They use force to break
up fighting. They are rude to a child who's
impolite, and they berate a child who uses
bad language.

In theory, we already know what good education is.
We have all the concepts. Unfortunately, one
cannot educate children on conception alone.
Children present problems which do not disappear.
Teachers need specific specific skills for dealing
effectively and humanely with minute-to-minute
happenings-the small irritations, the daily conflicts,
the sudden crises. All these situations call for
helpful and realistic reactions. A teacher's response has
crucial consequences. It creates a climate of compliance or
defiance, a mood of contentment or contention, a
desire to make amends or to take revenge. It affects the
child's conduct and character for better or for worse.

These are the facts of emotional life which make teaching
and learning possible or impossible. At their best,
teachers recognise this core truth: Learning is always in
the present tense, and it is always personal.

Dear Poirot,

We've got quite a lot in common. ;-)

cont'd ...

I forgot to add that part of my daily job
is also being a detective! ;-)

Ah there FOXY, please don't you start ? I've already had to be corrected by POIROT about her previous nickname 'detective', now you've added a similar epithet to your good self ?! :-( Now I'm really confused - either that, or I'm having another 'senior moment' ?

H E L P !!

o sung wu,

Not my previous nickname - but my present one...as in "Poirot".

You know, he of the mincing gait and the magnificent moustaches and the little grey cells?

Hi there POIROT...

A marvellous show ! My dear wife and I are dedicated viewers of the series, very ably carried, by the continued exemplary performances of David DUCHET as 'POIROT' and his indomitable 'aide extraordinaire' Captain HASTINGS ! That particular actors name momentarily escapes me ? However, so good is David DUCHET'S performance, I think he may well be 'type cast', which indeed would be most unfortunate ? Where do you think I get all my detective training from ? None other than from that curious little Belgian detective, Monsieur POIROT ?

And thank you too POIROT, for keeping me on my toes, so to speak ?

o sung wu,

Indeed David Suchet is typecast as Poirot, but it's not something he regrets. He filmed all of her novels and short stories, only finishing recently. He says he feels like he partly is Poirot - and they filmed the last novel "Curtain" in which Poirot dies, as the penultimate film, because he felt so emotional about it that he didn't want himself and the production team to finish off on that note....so they filmed another one last of all.

Agatha Christie's daughter actually put forward Suchet for the part - and wasn't she spot on!

Hugh Fraser played Captain Hastings.

Now there's a character with impeccable manners.

@Foxy, Wednesday, 21 January 2015 2:38:59 PM

Some mention needed of your sources. Eg.,
THEORY AND PRACTICE
Haim Ginott in Teacher and Child, 1972

There is a lot that has changed since then to make many children's lives unstable, and conflict-ridden too if the truth is told.

Children don't need any more lecturing, mind re-programming, generally being stuffed around, and guilt from the feminists and 'Progressives' interfering in the education system. They need the time (being there) and unselfish love of their parents and siblings that is most commonly found in the traditional family so despised by the feminists and 'Progressives'

Dear otb,

Well, fancy that.

I have referred to Dr Ginott in the past -
and even gave the title of one of his books.
He's written quite a few.
I'm flattered that you would go to all
that trouble to dig up the book I had mentioned
back then - and try to somehow smear me with it.

Now why do you suppose you would go to all that troubel
and do that?

As for the fact that things have changed in education in
recent years? That all depends on what you're talking
about.
I deal with teachers, schools, and school-children,
university and college students, on a regular basis.

On what evidence do you base your theories.

Now for your consistent references to Feminists and
Progressives ... Do you have anything new to say.

We know! We know!
According to you
its those horrible Feminists, Progressives, Fabians,
Emily Listers, handbag hit-squad, Socialists,
and anybody else - whose views happen to
disagree with yours
That are the cause of all of society's problems.

Sorry POIROT, another one of my many senior moments I'm afraid ? The gentleman's name is spelt SUCHET rather than DUCHET...duh !! Thank you. Indeed, Hugh FRASER wrote the book on manners I think, as well as being a brilliant actor ! I really enjoyed those typical English ways. They were the master's of the 'understatement', and set standards for behaviour that have continued 'til modern times ?

I often thought I would've liked to have lived in the UK, between the wars ? The late twenty's through to say, 1938 were interesting times I believe, though living through the great depression would be no fun at all ? In those times, most men were gentleman, as women were indeed ladies, and acted like they were ladies too.

Foxy, "I'm flattered that you would go to all that trouble to dig up the book I had mentioned back then - and try to somehow smear me with it."

Where you have cut and pasted a large section of an author's text it is usual to show it within quotation marks and cite the author. Otherwise it is all taken as your words and you wouldn't want that to happen, right?

The injured drama queen stuff is a bit much. You will have Actors' Equity after you for subs.

Dear otb,

Thank You so much for your obvious concern
and advice.

It is deeply appreciated.

I know you mean well - and I shall
certainly take on board your good
intentions to improve my style of posting.

As for being an actress?

That comes with my job.

My patrons expect it.

cont'd ...

Now that folks, - is an example of good manners.

Incidents like these are not unusual.

They occur in many forums on the internet.

The temper of our times encourages aggression;
belligerence masquerades as power, and confrontation as
justice. Civility is often mistaken as a sign of
weakness or servility. Learning at school does indeed
depend on the emotional climate engendered by
empathy and civility as all good teachers and educators
will confirm.

My opinion of schooling is the whole thing wants revamping, Manners, or life skills should be at the fore-front, Australian history, Australian english, Maths, Ancient history needs to be left for further education, schools. Our kids need to be taught how to live in AU before any other education, that will take up the first six years.

Hi there FOXY...

Your last thread struck a cord with me, and I do agree with you ? The times we live in unfortunately make it necessary for many of us to 'cloak' ourselves with some 'aggression' or with the occasional 'acerbic responses', even a bit of 'tough talk' purely as a protective measure, in order to prevent others from having a go at us, in some way ? Regrettably we live in a very violent, and aggressive world and unless we're protected by others, we need to protect ourselves. Sad but true. Or do you disagree ?

Dear O Sung Wu,

The point of this discussion is to teach youngsters
to learn to be considerate, tolerant, and respectful.
Parents, teachers and students need to be helping address
agression in schools. Aggression is behaviour intended
to injure another person - psychologically or physically.
And this leads to bullying which is agressive behaviour that
involves negative actions. It involves a pattern of
behaviour repeated over time.

Kids have to be taught that this type of behaviour is
totally unacceptable.

Hi FOXY I couldn't agree with you more. The only problem as I see it, a parent is responsible for teaching their child these important virtues, and that's fine, and as it should be.

The trouble being, the schools more often than not, do not insist on basic good manners, particularly proper standards of behaviour in the classroom, which can often resemble a war zone ? Not all teachers will try to implement or impose these standards, for one reason or another ? Consequently there's a state of confusion in the minds of the kids, as to what and when these standards are to apply ?

Which returns us to your Topic - Should manners be taught in school ? My opinion is still, not necessarily ? Manners should be first taught in the home, and 'encouraged' and 'broadened' in the school. There are some High Schools in Western Sydney where you're lucky if a student or a teacher makes it home from school in one piece ! Therein lies the problem ?

Dear O Sung Wu,

I don't buy that. It's the wrong attitude.

Nothing would have ever be achieved if everyone
felt that way. We should not look for reasons as to why
something can't be done. We should look for ways to do it.
Then at least we'll have the satisfaction that we
tried. Good manners should start in the family
that's where children learn not only good manners but
also core values and ethics, consideration, tolerance
and respect. However it should also continue at school,
because if kids aren't learning these basics at home
we need to be teaching them at school - otherwise as
I stated earlier - the kids without manners and social
skills will lose out and never know why. And kids need
good social skills in order to succeed - as we all know.

I suggest that you take out the DVD of the old classic
movie - "To Sir With Love," starring Sidney Poitier.
(If you haven't already seen it). It may clarify things
for you.

Foxy, "Now that folks, - is an example of good manners"

No it is not!

Where you copy and paste large slabs of someone else's original creative effort without acknowledging your source as you did Foxy, it is called plagiarism. That is immoral. Plagiarism has been rife since the the availability of information online. It is causing authors to limit what is available online.

Then to cover your butt you compound the wrong by acting the victim to divert attention, maligning the mere messenger and trying to make him the subject instead.

You imply that you are involved with pupils Foxy, so you should know what is expected of you and do better. Teachers should be model good ethics, first and foremost.

Dear otb,

Still attempting to divert this discussion.

Once again I shall politely set the example
of good manners.
You keep re-hashing old ground - I shall
repeat what I've told you in the past:

"If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if
you steal from many it's research."
(Wilson Mizner).

Cheers.

Dear O Sung Wu,

The following link may be of interest:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8963074/School-hires-etiquette-coach-to-teach-pupils-manners.html

I remember when I was in between jobs and did a course
with the Suzan Johnston Training Organisation here in
Melbourne - (I got offered a job and met Suzan Johnston -
I declined her offer and went back to uni instead). However,
I remember noting how many of the students had no idea on
how to dress for job interviews, and some of them
had no concept of any social graces. I was pleased that
they at least had the sense to enrol in courses that
would help them.

Hi there FOXY...

I know the movie to which you refer. It was made in the late sixties and set in a school in the east end of London, with a mixed class full of rebellious teens. The teacher used his persuasive personality to win them over, and ultimately they all became good and useful citizens. A nice movie with a happy ending however it would have very little relevance to most high schools of western Sydney today I'm afraid ?

A couple of years before I retired I was fortunate enough to attend a programme run by VICPOL but held in NSW, it was titled; 'Police - Schools Resource Officer's' Programme. It was broadly designed, to enable police to build bridges of communication, and greater levels of understanding between police and youth, with many of these youths attending both Victorian and NSW, High Schools.

The course was very interesting, and many of the techniques we were taught looked very good and it seemed worthwhile to at least try, in order to build greater levels of trust between youths and police.

Despite the best intentions of all concerned, when trialled outside in the community, it fell flat on it's face, with most youths treating it all with absolute derision ?

Those in charge of this 'social experiment' weren't very happy, not only because it totally crashed, but because of the immense cost in terms of personnel resources, and wasted money spent, both on training and later on, deployment. It was decided by 'the Gods' never such a 'similar' experiment was to be tried again ?

Idealism and reality are two entirely different matters. While manners and standards of behaviour are nice to have, just keeping some of these young people out of gaol is considered a major achievement, by some High School Principal's !

Foxy,

There is nothing polite in what you do when you copy and paste whole paragraphs of established authors' original work and present it as your own. It is unethical and immoral.

All educational authorities everywhere regard plagiarism as unethical. Here from NSW,

http://www.schoolatoz.nsw.edu.au/homework-and-study/homework-tips/copycats-beware

It is hypocritical to be lecturing all and sundry about 'manners' when you flout one of the most basic rules set for pupils in primary school and you are entirely unrepentant to boot.

Dear O Sung Wu,

The following link explains some of the problems
you've raised and what should be done:

http://www.behavioradvisor.com/Primer.html

Training in managing student behaviour should be
a must for all teachers - especially how to handle
discipline.

Dear otb,

You are so incredibly well informed.

I cannot argue with you for you have all
the answers.

I should simply sit at your feet and soak up
all your wisdom.

Thank You for pointing out to me my errors.

I shall endeavour not to repeat them.

Mea culpa!

Hi FOXY...

I've read your link, thank you for that. And there's no doubt Tom McINTIRE has a rare gift of handling troublesome students who feel they 'have' to go to school rather than they need to attend school in order to learn. Obviously his methods are tried and true, but somehow I can't avoid wondering how much a teacher's personality has to play, in controlling students in class ?

Obviously Tom has a very animated style about him, as evidenced by his lively even spirited techniques in explaining his procedures for coping with errant kids in class. All of which would probably translate quite well into his teaching methodology too ?

I wonder though, if a strong assertive male figure, can often intimidate kids into behaving well. Whereas a gentle and caring female teacher, perhaps can't ? I don't know FOXY, I've never taught teenagers in a school environment ? While it's true I spent a few years teaching in our Academy, they were more or less a captured audience and their behaviour was generally exemplary ? I guess it had to be, they were seeking a career in the police, any misbehaviour wouldn't have been tolerated at all ! It's for this reason I do feel quite sorry for young people who wish to pursue a career as teachers, a very noble vocation for sure, but sometimes thankless.

Thank you again FOXY for Tom McINTYRE'S link, I found it very interesting indeed.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for your last post and for fully
understanding the points that I am trying
to make here. Part of my ethos is not to give
up on kids. Especially the difficult, troublesome
ones. I've seen many films of teachers and
troublesome kids. There was a golden oldie
that was re-released in 2005 (I believe it was a
classic from the 1950s) that I saw recently -
called "Blackboard Jungle." It showed that the
problem of difficult kids has been with us for
a long time.

Thanks again for understanding.

Ah 'Blackboard Jungle' starring Glenn FORD as the poor tortured school teacher, trying to do his best for his students ? A brilliant film played magnificently by FORD and ors, who's names I can't recall ? It sent a shiver up all our spines, as to what could actually happen if teachers ultimately lost control of their schools ?

A frightening spectre of what could become a reality ? Thanks again FOXY, a very good example of what may occur if teachers don't try harder to emulate much of what Tom McINTYRE has suggested, as ways of 'reaching' and controlling difficult students in the classroom ?

o sung wu,

We were discussing David Suchet being typecast as Hercule Poirot. I recall him playing a Cardinal in play in Perth recently - and how about this?

He's breaking the mould big time.

http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2015/jan/23/david-suchet-as-lady-bracknell-importance-being-earnest?CMP=twt_gu

"Handbagged: see David Suchet as Lady Bracknell"

Hello there POIROT...

You know I've been fortunate enough to see 'The Importance of being Ernest' by at least five separate groups of players all of whom had five different actresses playing the role of 'Lady BRACKNELL'. I've seen productions as far away as Calgary, Canada, and of course in Sydney. Probably my all time favourite, staged comedy production !

Hearing as I did that the great David SUCHET was to play the role of Lady BRACKNELL would be fantastic I believe ! Such as his brilliance and acting 'savoir faire' ! Any thoughts that perhaps he may be typecast in his POIROT role, are greatly exaggerated I should think. He's truly an amazing actor whether or not he's on film or stage, wherever he chooses to exhibit his adroit acting skills, he continues to dazzle us all with his acting prowess ? I'd dearly love to see it ? Many thanks for letting me know, I really appreciate the 'heads up' so to speak ?

Dear Poirot and O Sung Wu,

David Suchet would make an excellent Lady Bracknell.
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen the play.
The last time was with Geoffrey Rush playing
Lady Bracknell. Superb!

I forgot at add that David Suchet came to
Melbourne to do the play, "The Last Confession,"
at the Comedy Theatre (around May 2014).

The play was a thriller dealing with the dramatic
tensions, crisis of faith, and
political manoeuvering, surrounding the death of
Pope John Paul I, inside the Vatican only 33 days
after being elected Pope. Suchet played - Cardinal
Benelli.

Suchet and the play got superb reviews. I'm so sorry
we missed seeing it.