http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/phi-natural-therapies tells of the review that the Australian Government Department of Health is conducting on natural therapies.

These therapies are essentially faith based. They are not subject to any review by clinical testing. It seems reasonable that government should not subsidise any of these therapies.

However, if the government no longer subsidises these therapies as I think is proper it should also consider its policies in regard to the chaplaincy program and subsidising religious schools.

The chaplaincy program is also faith based. Scripture Union and Access Ministries hire and train most of the chaplains. Those who apply for the positions must subscribe to various statements of Christian doctrine. There are no tests for the effectiveness of the program. It is presumably cheaper than hiring counselors trained to work with children of school age, but cost should not be a primary consideration when our children are concerned. The chaplaincy program, like the natural therapies is essentially faith based and has not been subjected to the reviews that pedagogical techniques have been.

Religious schools indoctrinate the views of the various religions that sponsor them. In general they have the view that they have a truth denied to those who do not follow the particular world view they subscribe to. As a consequence they generally believe their world view is superior to other world views. This makes religious schools a divisive force in our society.

However, we are a free society, and people have the freedom to make what choices they like. They have the right to use natural therapies, seek out practitioners of various faiths for advice and support and to send their children to schools that promote their particular world view.

Having a right does not mean that government has an obligation to support that right unless it is in the general interests of society. Government subsidies to natural therapies, the chaplaincy program and non-public schools are all forced levies on the taxpayers to support faith based programs which should be no business of government.

I hope government will cease support for faith based remedies, activities or education.

Dear David,

I fully agree with you.
However I don't think our opinion is going to matter
much to the current PM and his administration.

This government cuts university support and funds
priests' training. In its 2014 Federal Budget the
government provided $243.8 milllion over a 4 year
period to continue the National School Chaplaincy
Program and banned the hiring of qualified secular counsellors
for the students. We can question the appropriateness of
having a religious worker in a public school all that we
like, or the breaches of separation between church and
state that this action does, however, things are not going to change.
At least not yet.

Should parents who send their children to Church schools have to pay taxes to support Government schools?

We should bear in mind that the Catholic Schools existed before the Government schools in NSW and that they were partly funded by the Government.
That changed when that famous old womanizer, bigot and Judicial Murderer, Sir Henry Parkes introduced his education act and famously claimed that "... it would sound the death knell of the [Catholic] priesthood in Australia".
This caused the formation of the present system of Catholic Schools.
Why should Catholic taxpayers subsidize a system designed to injure their religion?

Secularist have made such a mess of the education system that they now are looking for Chaplains to clean up at least a little bit of it up. The more money they have poured into education the worse results they get. You don't need more than a small portion of your brain to see that the secularist dogma of moral relativism has led to most smart people avoiding teaching jobs as generally they don't want to do crowd control. Personally I think secularist should stop bludging on parents sending kids to private schools and pay a bit themselves. Somehow they think education is free. Obviously know nothing about economics or accounting.

Dear David,

I agree that government should not support natural therapies.
However, at the moment it unfairly supports conventional Western medicine through Medicare, preventing a level playing field where the consumer freely chooses the services they require.

In the least, those who prefer natural therapies should be able to opt out of Medicare, then pay their own health bills (or establish their own alternative health insurance) rather than pay twice for services they do not require.

In the least, those who prefer natural therapies should be able to opt out of Medicare, then pay their own health bills (or establish their own alternative health insurance) rather than pay twice for services they do not require.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 4 January 2015 1:38:21 PM

The cost of the medi-care levy is much less for many people when compared to the cost of private health insurance, then add the out of pocket costs as well.

This type of user pay system is prevalent in third world countries, where your survival from an illness can be reliant on your or your families ability to afford the treatment.

I should add, that private insurance spreads the liability across it's policy holders.

Government operate systems also spread the liability amongst the tax payers, the main difference is that the private system is driven by the ability to make a profit and to pay share holders and under the private system it is much more likely the policy holder will be at risk of being denied care.

Dear runner,

You wrote: "Secularist have made such a mess of the education system that they now are looking for Chaplains to clean up at least a little bit of it up."

Please state who these secularists are who are looking for chaplains to do anything in the schools. I know of none, and I doubt that there are any.

This is simply another of the statements you make which have no basis in fact.

Wolly B,

"This type of user pay system is prevalent in third world countries, where your survival from an illness can be reliant on your or your families ability to afford the treatment."

Only too true; I spend a fair amount of time in India and always go with sufficient medications to meet my every need. Locally to where I live when there, there is a Doctor who opens his doors twice a week for at least 12 hours a day.
He is a Specialist at one of the main Mumbai hospitals and has rooms in the city as well but he was born locally and spent his childhood there, hence the two days a week for the mainly poor patients, all that he asks from them is a donation if they can afford it; 99% drop something in the box.
Generally however the health system is for the better off and quacks abound.

Dear Wolly,

There was no question of denying medical services from anyone who has no money to pay: my post was about those who use alternative medicine and would not use conventional Western medicine, but pay for it anyway twice: once through the Medicare levy and once through the so-called "private" health insurance (which is practically compulsory due to the Medicare surcharge and so heavily regulated that one cannot really call it 'private'), then only can they pay with what (if any) they have left for their actual, alternative, health-care.

Since you mentioned the "user pay" system, it is fit and proper for those who can afford to pay and gives them more incentive to lead a healthy life-style to begin with. It also controls the tyranny, red-tape and high charges of the doctors through the AMA Mafia because then their employer/client to which they are accountable is the patient rather than the government. Again, those who have no money should continue to have their medical needs covered by the government - possibly through a system of HECS-like loans which they don't need to repay unless they become wealthy.

Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 4 January 2015 5:07:01 PM

There are a couple of furphies in your post.

Firstly, it is well known especially in the US that people are regularly denied medical coverage by their insurer. Even Australian insurers are denying coverage to overseas travellers.

<It also controls the tyranny, red-tape and high charges of the doctors through the AMA
<Mafia because then their employer/client to which they are accountable is the patient

Private insurance does nothing of the sort, in fact doctors get the medi-care rebate, the insurance company payment and the out of pocket expenses of the patient.

The example I will give is if the Doctor charges $120 for a consult, medi-care will cover about $36, leaving $84, your private health insurance may rebate you $64, leaving you $20 out of pocket.

It is a total fallacy that market forces and competition lead to lower medical costs.

Dear *DavidF*

Whilst I largely wholeheartedly agree with your stance about chaplains in the school, I think your argument that if the guvment is going to bin the rebate for "natural therapies" then they ought be consistent and bin the chaplaincy program is flawed for a few reasons.

Before I do, I believe *Foxy* is correct about the practical political realities, except that to that I would add that sometimes this kind of advocacy can be counter productive in that it has the effect of making the religious types fearful, and in turn they huddle tighter together and provide even more support for immoral politicians, which is of course what they want - votes - regardless of where they come from.

(It's enough to make you cry isn't it?)

And to *Runner* I would accept that from within the Christian quarter more generally there does come some needed morality, but I only want the best of the essence of it, not the outer garment.

Anyway, the first flaw i.m.o. is equating natural therapies (and depending exactly on how you define that) with faith. Now, I did have a look at the list on your link and by no means can I think that they are all "faith based."

So, how about a few examples: t.b.c.

Aromatherapy - when the synthetic skin ran out in the hospitals post the 1st Bali bomb French Lavender was used of course, and a majestic essential oil it is. (Perhaps someone can identify the active compounds to bring us into the world of modern chemistry) Or feeling a bit anxious or stressed, have a whiff before bed and you will be pleasantly surprised. I could go on but point made I assume?

Therapeutic Massage - cannot say enough good things. By late avo, I can be wracked with aches and pains from not enough exercise with my productivity levels bottoming out, and if the Mrs does 5 minutes of walking up and down on me I am good to go again till late. Do you think I would want to swap that for a course of expensive pills with side effects? No, No, No.

Conversely, I do accept that some of the natural therapies on the list are faith based, but not all of them, thus one has to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

One must also consider how humanity got by before the days of synthetic pills. Well, one part of the answer to that question is not so well, the other part is evidenced based natural therapies.

And how is this one for those with certain types of Schizophrenia. CBD (Cannabidiol - one of the 60+ actives (non-intoxicating) in Marajuana) is just as effective as Amisulpride (without the nasty side effects) ref to Wikipedia if you wish to read the evidence.

For these types of natural therapies, the industry just needs some way to protect its investment if they tool up and the synthetics producers have had more than enough of a leg up in recent decades.

Tends to be the way with the best of the naturals, jut as effective without the side effects.

And for the cockies, a CBD (long since available for on line illicit purchase via 2 sealed seeds in a standard envelope) of Cannabis would protect some people when faced with mental breakdown and suicidal ideation.

Dear Dream On,

I have no objection to support for any therapy as long as there is reliable evidence for its efficacy. One of my sons is Director of Downstream Process Development for a pharmaceutical firm in the US. That means developing manufacturing processes for pharmaceuticals based on natural sources.

Hmmm .. yes I suspected that that was your position but let me throw you a curve ball, or a bit of a curly one.

And whilst it is not necessarily an argument to include faith based remedies, it may be an argument not to entirely dismiss them.

And that is the so-called placebo effect. Now, we cannot proove that this or that faith based technique works but, we do know that when given placebo (or in the absence of anything or say just a faith based remedy), that some people still surprisingly recover, or recover faster.

One conjectured possibility for why this is so is due to the potent effects of the so called "relaxation response," and in that state, the body is much better able to repair itself.

So, someone do correct me if I am mistaken on that one but I haven't heard other than the jury still being out on that one, but even so, there is a little bit of wriggle room for the alternatives i.m.o. <snicker, snicker>

The multiverse is a big amazing place and there is much that is that we simply do not have the techniques or the understanding to grasp as of yet. And whilst I am certainly not suggesting a departure from an evidence based approach, I do suggest that we do not close the door entirely on the alternatives.

'Please state who these secularists are who are looking for chaplains to do anything in the schools. I know of none, and I doubt that there are any.'

david f

check with the numerous secular principals who have asked for Chaplains before mouthing your ignorance.

Dear runner,

You made a statement which, as far as I know, has no basis in fact and then ask me to verify your nonsense. What nerve. You are asking me to look for something that I have no reason to think exists.

You are the one who made the statement. Now prove it. Name those secularists who want chaplains. I don't think there are any. If there are prove me wrong.

Dear runner,

Secularists want separation of religion and state. Having chaplains in the public schools is a violation of the separation of religion and state. No one who is a secularist wants chaplains in the schools. Your statement that secularists want chaplains in the public schools is simply nonsense.

Maybe find out what a secularist is before you spout off again.

Maybe employ more teachers then priests wow get the class sizes down see if that helps

Or maybe we need these "chaplins" We need to recruit our up and coming pedophiles somewhere

Why on Earth We would want Religion in Schools in this day and age, Kids get enough of fairy-tales on TV
SCHOOL = Math/English/Basic education which clearly isn't being done atm.
Fix the Problem don't try putting band aids on things

Dear Dream On,

I don't think a remedy which has no proven efficacy should be subsidised because of the placebo effect. The placebo effect can be incorporated into conventional medicine. A doctor who treats patients with consideration, listens to their complaints even though they babble on and gives them confidence is employing the placebo effect.

Dreamon: Aromatherapy.

Now there's a heap of Hog Wash If I ever smelt it.

Dreamon: Therapeutic Massage.

Or Physiotherapy. This is very good in conjunction with Chiropractic Manipulation in correcting many Skeletal problems. However, Hot stones, "erotic oils", soft music & some big Busted, half naked woman does nothing.

Dreamon: Acupuncture.

While the jury is still out on this one, there does seem to be some value in the practice.

Dreamon: Hands on healing.

Crap. In the same vein as Praying or Waving pieces of coloured cloth or feathers & saying, "ooga booga wah wah," over the patient.

Dreamon: Cannabis would protect some people when faced with mental breakdown and suicidal ideation.

Would it? I would say that Cannabis was the cause of the Mental Breakdown & Suicidal Idealation in the first place.

Recently I was sent to a Nutritionist by my Doctor. I kept a diary of all my meals for two weeks. She said she couldn't help me. However while I was there she put the hard sell on me to purchase her range of "miracle Cures" for everything. I should give up Salt, But take her "Sal Mer" Tablets. (Sea Salt Tablets) Something else for Acid Blood. I said a teaspoon of Bicarb in a glass of waster would fix that. She was horrified I'd poison my self. I had a look at her product & the main ingredient was BiCarb Soda, under another name. There were an number of things I pointed out to her that were available at home for nothing & I didn't have to buy her "Products." She was visibly upset. I notice my Chiropractor has similar products that he tries to push.

My Auntie was a Witch Doctor/Midwife, so I know all about natural remedies. She made alcohol out of anything at hand. The family joke was she made Lawn Clipping Wine. She distilled her own Cascara which we had to take with Cod Liver Oil. It didn't kill us but it sure felt like it going down. It sure worked, & quickly too.

Dear DavidF,

I think what you say is correct to a certain extent, however, the nature of the placebo effect is not one that we reliably duplicate but we do know that it is real nonetheless. We also know that the "relaxation response" can be very personal. So, for one person a 5 minute chat with their GP may be very reassuring. For others, they will need a ceremony consistent with their beliefs. Rather nebulous, admittedly, and yet there you have it.

JayB, aromatherapy as a name to describe the use of essential oils is somewhat of a misnoma, but a recognised one by those who are informed. It does not mean that you smell all of them. In fact, amongst the essential oils are I believe the world's first potent antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal agents, brought to us from the Eastern Islamic cultures at that time when the West was still without.

Massage is as agreed a valuable therapeutic tool, and not just for skeletal issues, but also circulatory and muscular issues. Hot rocks and certain oils play a role. Whilst you may want to see this as a black and white affair, the reality is somewhere in between. Now, I recognise that quite a cult of mumbo jumbo has grown up around it, but once you seperate that out there are TGA approved agents in the mix.

Tea Tree oil is a classic example, and present in many pharmaceutical products available from the chemist though we recognise the UWA study regarding the need for sufficient active in the mix for efficacy.

Re: your comments on cannabis, again you are uninformed, as you seem to have failed to comprehend what was written. No one was suggesting the consumption of raw cannabis, but rather one of its constituent parts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol

However. there are now CBD strains available, which have only negligible amounts of intoxicants in, much like hemp.

When you spout off in ignorance you just sound silly. Try harder to comprehend what has been written.

and re:salt, well there are certainly some conditions which require the reduction and or elimination of salt from the diet, such as certain heart conditions.

And bicarb, well, it has its uses for sure but as of last I looked on the TGA, it had fallen out of favour as regular use has an unacceptably high risk of damaging the lining in the stomach. Now, other agents are preferred in its stead.

Other dietary programs are also very useful depending on the nature of the medical issue. For example, for those with certain types of Irratible Bowel Syndrome, a FODMAP diet is the way to go.

Conversely, some conditions which are claimed to be assisted by diet by dubious practitioners are in reality not affected whatsoever. So again, medicine is a complex issue which is rarely black and white but most often somewhere in between.

Talking about "natural therapies," can someone
explain to me why chiropractics, physiotherapists,
and osteopaths should receive government support?

Dear Foxy,

You have lumped three disparate disciplines together. Physiotherapists have a knowledge of the musculature and skeletal structure of the human body and can work either alone or together with physicians to treat certain medical problems. There is no mumbojumbo involved.

Chiropractors and osteopaths are essentially crank specialties. Chiropractors maintain that manipulation of the spinal column solves a host of problems which may not involve the spinal column at all. Osteopathy maintains that vanishingly small ingredients can have a salubrious effect.

Physiotherapy is a discipline resulting from evidence based medicine. Chiropractic and osteopathy are not such disciplines.

Dear David,

Thank You for your explanation.

I can see that I shall have to do a bit more
research into the differences between these
three disciplines.

My understanding was that
physiotherapy treats people with muscular and
tissue ailments and related ailments.
Chiros deal with skeletal - predominantly spinal
conditions. (That's where the term "bone-crunching"
came from - but not any more today - where gentler
methods of re-aligning the structure to relieve
pressure on the nerve-system are used).

My husband was diagnosed 22 years ago with a
deteriorated spinal condition. His spine was twenty
years older than he was - according to x-ray analysis.
He suffered great pain and was not able to
straighten upright after a days work at the drafting
table (he's an architect). He too did not believe in
chiropractors, tried physiotherapy without success
and at the insistance of a close friend went to listen
to an American chiropractic expert - of a new system of
treatment - and decided to try it - for a few introductory
sessions. He had nothing to lose.

And surprise, surprise, he noticed after several visits
that the pain was not as prolific and in later years
to this day - he hasn't been "cured" but now his spine
feels more like it should be for his age - merely because
it is re-aligned a few times a year to prevent the nerves
being pinched.

As a former sceptic - my husband now highly recommends this
procedure to others - simply to try before making a
decision. In short, the procedure is a gentle "tapping"
of the spine with a spring-loaded activator into place.
There is no discomfort during the process.

Sometimes, some of us often pre-judge certain things
and our views can change with experience.

David f: Chiropractors and osteopaths are essentially crank specialties.

I agree with you on Osteopaths, but not Chiropractors. Chiropractic manipulation is no good if it's not preceded & followed up with Physio.

I suffered with Migraine for years. I came of a horse when I was 11 & dislocated my Atlas. It wasn't until I found a Chiropractor that would move it that the Migraine's went away for good. My father suffered with head aches for years & wore glasses. It wasn't until he mentioned that he had come off a horse & landed on his head that he Chiropractor manipulated his neck & within a few weeks he had to throw away his glasses. He never had to wear them again. I have a vertebra that keeps going out in my upper back & I get indigestion. Luckily I can put it back in myself & the indigestion goes away. No need for Magnesium Hydroxide (Milk of Magnesia). The nerve from that vertebra goes to the Stomach.

Did I mention that the pills the Nutritionist wanted to sell me at a ridiculously high price were mostly Sodium Bicarbonate. (BiCarb)

David f: Chiropractors maintain that manipulation of the spinal column solves a host of problems which may not involve the spinal column at all.

I agree. Some Chiropractors have got themselves into a lot of hot water for these claims & when I get one that tells me about what they can cure & tell them Bull$hit. Especially when they claim they can cure infertility. That one gets them into trouble just like some Doctors.

David f: Osteopathy maintains that vanishingly small ingredients can have a salubrious effect.

Yes, more Jiggery boo crap.

Chiropractor have to have an extremely good knowledge of the Bone, Nerve & Muscular structure of the body. The same as Physiotherapists.

It stands to reason in my mind what you say about chiropractic interventions *Foxy* as we must remember that whilst unseen, the force of gravity is a powerful one and is constantly exerting pressure upon us.

If for some reason say our musculature is pulling unevenly, or our posture is bad, this can in turn lead to pulling parts of our skeleton out of alignment too.

It could also be say that because of congenital malformation of the bones, or a degenerative condition, that an individual is naturally out of alignment and thus, chiro to re-align and say take the pressure off the spinal column in certain instances can be highly beneficial.

So, I think it is a bit unfair to label it as a crank/quacks' discipline dear *DavidF*

That's not to say that some practitioners may not be applying it as a general curative for unrelated ailments. Unfortunately, the nature of the current economic model can distort best practice to the extremes of malpractice.

Dreamon: and re:salt, well there are certainly some conditions which require the reduction and or elimination of salt from the diet, such as certain heart conditions.

Of course there is. Most of the information about how bad salt is for you comes out of Europe or North America. These are mostly Cold Climates & most people live & work in High Rise Air Conditioned Buildings. They don't sweat that much. We live in Australia. A Hot Dry Continent. Most people work outside. We need salt. We sweat a lot.

Eg; At Lavarack Barracks in Townsville the Army banned Salt from the Mess Tables. First two week Exercise they went on lasted three day with most of the men dropping like flies with Heat Stroke. Not Heat Exhaustion. Salt went back on the table & Salt Tablets were issued every day.

Then there's Sugar. My Favourite. In the &0's Sugar fell out of favour. Why? I hear you ask. Well apparently Cane Sugar was making inroads into the Sugar Beet market. Domestic consumption of Cane Sugar only accounts for about 25% of the World market. about 80% of Cane sugar goes into making Plastic & other things. Anyway, The European & North American Beet Sugar Marketers didn't like that so they cook up a story that Cane sugar wasn't any good for you because it was bleached white. When White Sugar was 50c a Kilo Brown & Raw Sugar was 20c a kilo. To counter that the Cane Sugar Board admitted that they took all the goodness out if the sugar to make it white but Brown & Raw sugar still had all the goodness still in it. Whereupon they raised the price of Brown & Raw sugar to 50c a kilo & made a killing. I grew up beside Kalamia Mill. Home of the very first Macadamia Nut Plantation.

Foxy: As a former sceptic - my husband now highly recommends this
procedure to others - simply to try before making a decision.

My wife had the same experience. She did her back while Vacuuming & shifting furniture. I was away for a couple of weeks with the Army when I came home she was living in the lounge room floor & couldn't get up. I called an Ambulance & took her to a Chiropractor I knew. Did he get up me for bringing an Ambulance to the practice. However she walked out after an hour. All the Doctor did was his, "Take two aspirin for the pain & see me in the morning." routine. Useless.

Thanks everyone for your comments and the
sharing of your experiences.
Doctors were not able to help my husband's
spinal problems - except on the one occasion
when his pain was so intense that he went to
his GP in desperation. The GP gave him an
injection which lasted for about a day or so.
It did help him during that crisis period -
but the chiro helped more in the long-term.

My wife went to a chiropractor who I admit seemed to help her. However, his statements caused me to doubt him.

When I came there with Marie he said, "You should come to me, too." That is one mark of a quack - assuming that whatever they do will benefit you even though you have said nothing about any symptoms or complaints. He told my wife she had luxuriant beautiful hair. Although I think she is a beautiful woman her hair is sparse and stringy, her least attractive feature. He told us he learned about the Eskimos in chiropractic school. According to him they stay in their igloos all winter not even leaving to eliminate wastes. When spring comes they leave the igloo and have a grand bowel movement in which the stored contents of a winter's food intake are eliminated at one time. What a blast! He actually seemed to believe that.

I do not believe all chiropractors are that bad or that gullible, but he apparently believed what he told us. He was a member in good standing of the chiropractic association according to the documents on the wall.

Dear David,

I guess all this proves is that sweeping generalisations
don't allow for individual differences.
We can only speak from our own experiences.

I used to see a chiropractor for persistent headaches and the adjustments seemed to work. However, as with david f's wife's Chiro, he would occasionally make statements and claims that made me suspicious, and this was before I became a methodological sceptic.

Chiropractic seems to work for minor back pain and frequent headaches, but the problem with it is that many Chiropractors (probably most of them) make a lot of pseudoscientific claims (http://skepdic.com/chiro.html) and try to convince their clientele that they can never stop coming if they want to remain healthy. Mine certainly made sure I never forgot that.

Treatments need to be evidence-based to receive government funding, and the problem with Chiropractic is that it hasn’t yet been proven to work. Most of the “evidence” for it consists of testimonials; even homeopathy has them, and that’s the most easily and thoroughly debunked natural therapy there is. There is some published evidence *suggesting* that it works, but not to a greater extent than any other treatment.

Some of you may be familiar with Tim Minchin’s song, ‘Storm’ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U), where he points out that natural (or alternative) remedies have either not been proven to work, or proven not to work, Chiropractic falls in the former category. Natural medicine that has been proven to work is call “medicine”, just as natural therapies that have been proven to work are just called “therapies”.

One of the biggest problems with the entire philosophy behind natural therapies and remedies is that they commit the naturalistic fallacy.

Please forgive me. My remarks about osteopathy really referred to homeopathy.

Aussieboy,
Chaplains in schools do not equate to teaching religion in schools. In fact they are not to talk about religion unless the child requests the subject. The chaplains I know are parents of boys and have good relationships with school principals [which includes agnostics] as problem children are referred to them. They spend time with the child assisting them to gain a better self image and how to deal with problems at home. Almost one boy in every three does not have a live at home father, so a caring father figure assists the child adapt to the school environment where most primary teachers are female.

I should probably clarify, too, that when I said, "There is some published evidence *suggesting* that it works...", I was taking about chiropractic, not homeopathy. Homeopathy has been found to have no effect beyond a placebo.

Dear Josephus,

I have attended Baptist, Catholic, Unitarian, Presbyterian, Russian Orthodox and black Protestant churches. I have attended Taoist ceremonies in Deagon, Muslim religious ceremonies in the West End in Brisbane, the Jewish temple in Camp Hill and visited the Hindu Temple in Helensburgh, NSW.

My daughter attends Buddhist sanghas in Pennsylvania, and the Unitarian church in Wilmington, DE, and I have gone with her to those places.

Possibly the best music is in the Brisbane Catholic cathedral concerts, the Russian Orthodox ritual, the Jewish cantorial chants and the enthusiastic black Protestant choirs.

There has been good food in the Brisbane Cathedral (There is a big spread for season ticket holders.), the Hindu Temple, the synagogue and the Taoist temple.

In some religious services one counts the number of lights in the ceiling. Others have been very exciting such as the service in the Catholic cathedral in Washington, DC with African women in their native costumes dancing down the aisle to African music.

http://www.sundayassemblybrisbane.com.au/ tells about Sunday Assembly which is like a church but doesn’t require any belief in any deity. I am giving a talk there Jan. 11.

Christianity is only one of many religions. They all have their features – some good and some bad.

Although I have no belief in any sort of supernatural entity I have an intense interest in religion. As you have gathered from my posts I am of the view that religion should be no business of government. Government should not use religion to advance its interests and vice versa.

Diarmaid MacCulloch who was a believer in Christianity wrote “A History of Christianity”. It is a fascinating book. Apparently MacCulloch is no longer a believer and wrote:

“I still appreciate the seriousness which a religious mentality brings to the mystery and misery of human existence, and I appreciate the solemnity of religious liturgy as a way of confronting these problems. I live with the puzzle of wondering how something so apparently crazy can be so captivating to millions of other members of my species.”

I share his viewpoint.

I know nothing about natural remedies or the science that apparently supports them ? However I have it on reliable advice, that some nutritional supplements may prove beneficial if all else fails ? That lovely sunny grain called Hops has a certain medicinal even curative properties in its structures. Other similar grains also have these restorative aspects to their elements as well.

Probably the best mode of getting these healthy elements into your system is via the 'Schooner' ! Or the 'Middy' if the Schooner appears a little too confronting ? For our treasured gentler gender we have the delightful 'Pony' a cute little fellow ?

Other than that my friends, I have nothing of substance in which to leave you good people, I'm sorry !

o sung wu,

Real men and real women drink pints, either 'old' or Guinness.

Is Mise: Real men and real women drink pints, either 'old' or Guinness.

Now you've gone & upset the Greenies & PC people. Shame on you. ;-)

Please forgive me again. My last post addressed to Josephus was meant to be on another string where he suggested I attend a church.

Question to Is Mise. To the best of my knowledge a pint is a liquid measure. What do mean by drinking a pint? Drink enough of any kind of liquid, and you have drunk a pint.

Hi there IS MISE & JAYB...

Once upon a time I'd drink anything, as long as it's wet ! I was telling a bloke I know, about the Millers brew, he reckons he'd never heard of it ? True it was an acquired taste, something like Tooths old I thought ? Back when they were very well known, Miller's had a string of modern styled Hotels, many with big lounges, with top musical acts performing in most of them. Over the years they seem to have slowly disappeared, or they may've been bought out by another Brewer perhaps, I really don't know ?

I've again departed from the Topic at hand, for that I'm very sorry indeed DAVID F, it's a habit I have, that does tend to get up the collective noses of all who choose to read my threads ?

To the topic at hand, because Rye, Barley, Maize, even Hops are all those natural cereal type grains that require a substantial amount of sun and water in which to flourish, must be good for us as well ?Because we humans need similar ecological circumstances in which to prevail, otherwise we'll surely fall into ill health ? It's for this reason a small whisky is/was my preferred vehicle, in which to obtain my daily supplement of barley and rye. And to ensure I had adequate supply of hops in my system, I'd consume a small tipple of a boutique styled beer, over a period of time ?

So as you can see good people, I did treat my body as a 'Temple'? Furthermore I ensured that I always remained 'regular', without ever resorting to the extraordinary need of having the Commissioner's photograph firmly affixed behind the toilet door, an act of last resort it was thought !

Davidf - this one's for you:

Leonard Cohen - The Future (Lyrics)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnaxvBsyigM

davidf

Us old blokes tend to think in Imperial measures, a Pint was a large drinking vessel with a handle that was of one pint capacity,
"A pint of Old, please" to the barmaid produced a Pint filled with dark brown beer.
The same request today produces a large vessel with handle which is probably in some metric measure but looks the same as a Pint.

Dear Constance,

Thank you for that. Interesting lyrics. Could concentrate on them since I turned off the sound which I did not find pleasant. Bleak visions. Have never heard or read anything by Leonard Cohen before. Much prefer Cole Porter and the Gershwins. Much more pleasant to think of the time when I was a little boy with my grandmother or to enjoy where I am now, an old man living with an old woman who I love deeply.

Similar words to Leonard Cohen's have been around for a long time.

Jeremiah 4:18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart. 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

The Bible does it more eloquently than Cohen, but I still like Porter and the Gershwins.

Thanks, Is Mise. Sounds great for old blokes.

Dear Josephus,

There are many non-Christian groups in Australia. How many of their gatherings or services have you attended? You might get acquainted with some of them, make friends and find out about their attitudes.