Dear Foxy,

So beautiful, so precise, so true, I had tears in my eyes reading this!

I stand behind every word, but please give the well-deserved credit to Marianne Williamson.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Thank You for your very kind words and -
My sincere apologies for my oversight in
not acknowledging citing bits from Rabbi Williamson.
I've acknwledged her so many times in the past
that her words have now become second-nature to me.

I see my name mentioned, and I haven't commented yet.
I too started at a country Catholic school at six in winter as there were no other schools in the area, and in those days no buses. I was abused by the nun the first day at school for cutting my hand on the cross cut saw after volunteering to cut wood with another for the classroom fire. I spent six weeks at that school and could recite every times table from 2 x to 12 x. However being picked on for not attending Mass my parents sent me 200 miles down the line to live with grandparents where I could attend a Public School.

I have had to think out my own decisions in life and evaluate the lives of people based on their values and personal philosophy. I have found the understanding the New Testament Christianity gives the greatest value to life, it offers freedom from past foolishness, and a sense of worth to the most worthless of men, examples; Mr Eternity, Arthur Stace and John Newton of "Amazing Grace".

Secularism does not give a united set of values that spiritually bond a society. The only bonded secular societies are ruled by dictators who impose their values. A secular society that feels they are free to do as they please without responsibility to others and self denial is a broken society of strained relationships. Every society has to function with laws of restraint to the strong willed, and provision to the weak. True spirituality is not about suppression, but about living in community. A train functions best on a controlled track, with brakes and appropriate movements.

(A copy and paste of an earlier post from me, but it seems to fit here well enough)

Here's something Ivan Illich wrote on traditional society.

I'm not suggesting that we should make an informed choice to revisit such a model, although the things we've lost were part and parcel of cooperating within such a model.

Perhaps there's something we can learn from it.

Here's the way he put it:

"...Traditional society was more like a set of concentric circles of meaningful structures, while modern man must learn how to find meaning in many structures to which he is only marginally related. In the village, language and architecture and work and religion and family customs were consistent with one another, mutually explanatory and reinforcing. To grow into one implied a growth into the others..."

Seems our greatest challenge is to find "meaning" in our lives and a sense of ourselves being "needed" in the scheme of things.

Without that.....

Foxy I think I understand where you are coming from.
We have had a lifetime of religious instruction and rituals that are hard to break.
Many people need religion as a comfort to them in times of need, and I wouldn't want to discourage that.

I can understand the concept of spirituality, and have strangely felt that out in the bush areas of northwest Australia and the Northern Territory.
I would be more likely to embrace a sort of empathy with Mother Earth, if you get my drift, rather than trying to believe there are invisible beings out there somewhere.

At least you can see and feel the wonders of nature!
Maybe I have just turned into an old cynic. :)

People talk about death and spirits and the afterlife, and yet, in over 30 years of being with people before, during and after their death, I have never seen nor heard any spirit!

Josephus, I apologize, I wrote your name when I meant to address Constance.
Thank you for adding to the discussion too anyway. :)

I do know many people who describe themselves as living in a secular society who are good, decent people, living productive lives and enjoying loving relationships.
I also know some people who describe themselves as living a God-fearing life, who quite honestly are nasty to the core.

I guess what I am trying to say is that whether one believes in a God or not has no bearing on whether they are a 'good' person or not, and I take each person as they come.
I don't need to know what they believe in or what they don't, as long as I enjoy their company.