I've just watched a TV program on police
officers being badly affected by PTSD (Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder) as a result of
the horrific things they have had to deal
with in their jobs, what they've experienced
and witnessed. This included both male and
female officers. And it was officers from
all of our states .

The program went on to show
the number of officers who committed suicide
as a result of simply being unable to cope.
And to make matters even worse - The National
Police Memorial, which is located in Canberra
lists the names of fallen officers, including
their rank, and the date of their deaths - but
it excludes those who died as a result of suicide.

I thought this should be worth discussing and
bringing to everyone's attention. Surely the officers
who as a result of their jobs were suffering from
PTSD (caused by their jobs) and could no longer
cope as a result of their jobs - and committed
suicide - should also be treated as "fallen officers."
And given the recognition and respect they have earned.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-03/verity-our-shameful-silence-on-police-suicide/5294142

Your thoughts please?

Perhaps those police officers have died from shame because deaths in custody are on the increase. Or could it be because no officer has ever been held accountable for aboriginal deaths? The farce on Palm Island ten years ago remains a typical festering sore, in which the memory of corrupt procedures, political and Union interference saw a killer go free with thousands of dollars compensation, while the misery, deaths and suicides of those affected by the brutality have never been addressed. Do you think there might be a police officer who is compassionate enough to top himself in solidarity with the oppressed?
It must be galling to work with officers who let a girl who owed a thousand dollars die in her cell. The officers laughing as young men are bashed, disfigured, beaten senseless and thrown like rags around the watchhouse, perhaps feel nothing, but some of their co workers will, and this will affect their joy in life. I am utterly ashamed, yet I've had nothing to do with it. How much worse must decent police officers feel at belonging to such a group?

Dear ybgirp,

PTSD apparently affects many police officers due to the
stressful nature of their jobs and I'm sure
that "deaths-in-custody," would also have a
huge impact on officers who have to deal with
these difficult situations. Situations that
most of us know very little about.

I have precisely zero sympathy for people who join the Police in the first place much less the ones who stay in for long enough to develop mental problems.
Intelligent people will always suffer from having to spend all their working life dealing with cretins and criminals and the depressing or gory results of their stupidity and incompetence so maybe recruiting from the pool of good, smart people who might otherwise make valuable contributions in other areas is a bad idea.
We all know the types of kids we went to school with who went on to join the Police, prison service or the army, the bullies and idiots who couldn't get any other work and who were too dumb for uni or the trades,maybe they need to go back to recruiting from the amateur footy clubs and run cadet programs for the less gifted students.

'afternoon FOXY...

Yes, it's been a problem for many years, and to be fair, Command are (very) slowly coming to recognise there exists such a serious predicament and as such, are providing counselling for those who wish it. As far as adding the names of those police who died by their own hand, on the National Police Memorial...? I really don't know ?

I suspect there would be many serving members, as well as some surviving spouses and family members, of police slain in the execution of their duty, who might strongly object to having their loved one's name positioned, side by side with a member who had committed suicide ? I may well be very very wrong, if so I apologise ?

I note Foxy, another individual has added a comment herein ? My response is relatively simple ? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, ad infinitum.

while I hold many police in very high regards, making heroes of people who do themselves is sending the totally wrong message. Many movie/rock stars do themselves in and hence many young many vulnerable people follow their 'heroes'. By all means deal with issues leading to this tradegy but by no means make heroes of them.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I had not idea that this was such a serious problem
amongst police officers until I watched the current
affairs program - "Sunday Night," at 6.30 pm on
November 23rd 2014. It was devastating. I listened
to wives talking about what their husbands went through
in the "line of duty." I realised how little we know
of what the situations that police officers are faced
with at times - and what is required of them. Very few
escape unscathed. I only know a little from a relative
who (now retired) served in the LAPD - (Los Angeles
Police Department) and he was a very strong man - but
his hair went white after one year in service.

People who complain about our police - have no idea
what these officers have to deal with - and where would
we be without them. Of course mistakes are made - but
I for one - am grateful to the officers - and their
families. The program was a real eye-opener.

runner,

Good point. It is likely to lead to copy cats, especially among surviving family and other officers, rather than an approach to the GP and counselling. Reason enough not to do it.

It also extends the publicity, which again has a negative effect on family.

Finally, died rendering service means just that. If there ever was cause to recognise other deaths/service the whole purpose is changed.

Jay of Melb>>I have precisely zero sympathy for people who join the Police in the first place much less the ones who stay in for long enough to develop mental problems.<<

Yes Jay you have no time for them until you need them, what an obvious “rebel want to be” statement. I know many people that could and would change your mind and have you banging on the cops door like a frantic victim as opposed to a "rebel" who has no need or sympathy for our cops.

I have no illusions regarding cops, every police force in Europe (except the Danes) rounded up and herded the Jews off to their deaths for the Nazis during WWII. Cops are paid mercenaries.....in the days before the Royal Commissions the cops had the crims working for them as mercenaries.....then we had something to whinge about.

Were you aware that the bastard insurance companies are holding up payments to many cops injured in the line of duty, and the government have not addressed it, nor have their associations. If there is any one link to cop suicides it is the shabby dishonest treatment of the injured cops by the insurance companies.

Runner>> while I hold many police in very high regards, making heroes of people who do themselves is sending the totally wrong message. Many movie/rock stars do themselves in and hence many young many vulnerable people follow their 'heroes'.<<

Gosh runner I can see the similarities between cops and showbiz types.

OTB>> Good point. It is likely to lead to copy cats,<<

I expect there are two main drivers for suicide; one is to make a statement because of a sense of hopelessness. The other is to end the pain.........neither inspire one who does not have these issues to the act of self harm.

There's a message on facebook that says it well -

"Police Officers die. It is the job that takes
their lives.

One wall for all!"

http://www.facebook.com/supportaussiecops.444

Simplistic. Could impede helping others. Might suit lawyers and the union though, and of course media that dumbs down everything to fit its session times (being charitable).

It is reasonable to assume that there would be depressed members and their families reading that. What messages might be better for them? -Especially considering that all have different things going on in their lives.

The messages from the wives of the officers,
and their families were loud and clear on
the TV program. They wanted their husbands/
fathers, remembered and honoured - just like
any other police officer who had died in the
line of duty. They also more to be done to
address the suicide rates in the force. The
numbers of officers committing suicide is quite
large and growing.

http://mentalhealthaustralia.org.au/former-police-call-for-more-to-be-done-to-address-suicide-rate-in-the-force

And -

http://www.australianpolice.com.au/category/deceased-police/suicide/

Hi FOXY...

I'm not saying the job is all murder, rape, and mayhem, all the time, because it's not. Personally, one of the greatest stressors if you like, is caused by senior officers, and their unrealistic expectations. Another real stressor is the public, and their unfair attitude directed at police.

You only need to view some of the opinions voiced here on The Forum ? The hate, the revulsion, aversion and repugnance that some contributors here are prepared to voice against police. Just have a read of the latest thread of JAY OF MELBOURNE for example ? It overflows with contempt and derision of the police ? They're dull witted, stupid, and under educated etc. etc. Yet one day some poor bloody 'dull witted', 'uneducated copper' might need to place his life on the line for people like JAY OF MELBOURNE !

Something else I might share with you too FOXY, when I was younger I could hold my hands up. So much so I fought in the inter-service boxing championships, and when I joined the coppers, I had continued boxing. Therefore, it was held by most of my colleagues, that I could 'go the knuckle' and I did on some occasions during some major brawls !

The whole point being, you'd get some smart arse maggot challenge you, saying you're just hiding behind the badge etc.! Do you realise how much 'self-control', how you had to 'swallow your pride', when a maggot challenges to fight, calling you gutless, in front of his stupid mob ? And you knowing you could absolute eat him if you wished ? But you can't, you wear the uniform ! Now FOXY, that's REAL stress to me at least, I'd return to the station, at the end of the shift, 'shaking with rage' ! THAT'S stress to me you can believe it.

Foxy,

You refer to the wives etc interviewed by that TV program as wanting the publicity. What about those who weren't there, what do they want?

Secondly and more importantly, what about the effect on the members who are presently (and may be in the future) suffering from depression? What is good for them? Might as well top yourself because that is what is expected of you and the family would likely be better off, what with all of the recognition and the compo claim the ambulance chasing lawyers and union officials promised?

Names on a wall and recognition of PTSD if that is what is at stake is nowhere near as important as nipping problems in the bud to save lives and marriages for that matter - which the police forces are endeavoring to do with leave and counselling initiatives.

Get the journalists, union officials and the lawyers out of it and get the helping and support services in.

Sonofgloin, you misunderstand me.
How many times have you called the Police because something is actually happening to you? Most people go through their entire lives never needing Police assistance and on the rare occasions when we do call them it's to report the stupid or destructive acts of dumb people.
You need thugs and morons in the pay of the state to deal with the thugs and morons on the street, you need men who don't think too much about the things they see and the people they have to deal with, it's not a job for intelligent, sensitive people.
I'll give you another example of what I'm talking about, some men return from war as psychological basket cases, other men enjoy combat and never lose a wink of sleep afterwards. My grandfather suffered "shell shock" from the time he was evacuated from New Guinea in 1944 until he died in 2008, he snapped when his best mate was killed in the Salamaua campaign, on the other hand another old soldier I knew went through the same if not worse experiences at Tobruk and in New Guinea and claimed it never bothered him at all, that he hardly thought of the war afterwards.

Wives, families, former police officers,
Lifeline, Beyond Blue - are all calling
for more to be done to address suicide
rates in the force. Those are the
undeniable facts - and they need to be
addressed - end of story.
Looking for excuses not to be it - does
not help the shameful situation and only makes
matters worse.

One police officer stated:

"I'd like to see at least the police force recognise that
there is a problem and not cover it all."

33 men die every week as a result of suicide.
An inquiry is needed nationally as to
why people develop these illnesses and above
all - what can be done to counter them.

That is the point of this discussion.

Foxy,
Let me re-phrase my comments.
Could it be that nowadays political considerations outweigh common sense in the selection of Police recruits and that the old workplace culture which used to harden people is now frowned upon?
It's not just Police work either, in my area of work we were toughened up as teenagers on the factory floor and building site by what's now called "bastardisation" and coercion by not wanting to appear weak in front of the guys. You actually can knock the fear and self doubt out of most men and make them better, more confident people and better workers and not everyone is traumatised by bullying or "coercive instruction".
It seems straightforward to me that the people who would need psychological support shouldn't be in the job and the people most suited to the job are the least likely to be bothered by what they see or hear in the course of their career.
We have a couple of old school coppers who post on OLO, I wonder how many of their workmates committed suicide during their time with the Police?
As I said, I have no sympathy for people who end put themselves in harms way or in stressful situations because of misplaced idealism or for financial gain and then find that they suffer mental illness as a result.
It seems to me that the people who are most suited to stressful dangerous jobs are the ones who aren't overly intelligent, who have a low capacity for empathy and who aren't fearful in fearsome situations rather than those with a desire to "make a difference" or careerists who want to rise up the ranks.

Dear Jay,

There could be a multitude of reasons as you
say - however this only confirms the fact that
there should be an investigation into why
this is happening and something should be done
about it. The facts are that there are too many
officers doing it and its happening nation-wide.
The police force is covering up how many officers
kill themselves - and that indicates that something
is very wrong.

http://www.vice.com/read/australias-police-are-covering-up-how-many-officers-kill-themselves

Jay of Melb>>Sonofgloin, you misunderstand me<<

My apologies Jay....yes I agree with your sentiments.

Re Foxy’s opening thread....even the Romans cared for their wounded gladiators....they let them fight to the death, but gave them the finest medical care available when injured......not our governments who are shills for the insurance lobby.

FOXY...I've got a really good solution to the myriad of questions concerning police suicide, and law enforcement per se.

It's a given, that there are very few members of society who actually support police in their efforts to maintain law and order ? And there are a few more who look upon them in a more ambivalent way, viewing them more as a necessity then anything else ?

Finally, we have a substantial portion of the community who have no time at all for coppers, perceiving them as being dull-witted and poorly educated jerks. In some cases, even 'psychos' who derive great pleasure from standing-over and menacing those innocent, and otherwise hapless members of the community. Usually by their imposing physicality or the majesty of their uniform, oh I forgot, the gun on their hip !

The answer is relatively simple I submit ? Because the majority of adults have such a low opinion of their police, why bother intervening in their stress issues (it's all a 'put-on' anyway), rather just let them 'stew', as they brought most of it upon themselves ! Besides most coppers are so insensitive and unfeeling, as well as poorly educated, and dull-witted. For these reasons, they wouldn't recognise a helping hand even if it were proffered to them, so why bother ?

Let 'em neck themselves, eat their own gun if that's what they want ? And start recruiting the more academic inclined, better educated law-enforcer's. Potential recruits with much nicer personalities and with much more pleasing dispositions. And just stand back and watch ! Watch all these bad guys run for their lives, particularly when it registers, they've got a couple of 'graduates' on their tail ! So you see FOXY, problem solved !

the problem with more studies into this tradegy is that just like deaths in custody the outcomes are already determined by academics. Much of academia can't break from the group think mentality and look at real causes for issues. In fact many times social engineers create issues and then demand government money to fix their stupidity.

O Sung,
The "problem" is really with the commanders, the culture at the top is at odds with the culture out in the suburbs and has been hijacked by the same rent seeking, Left wing special interest groups who have wrecked the education system and are now working their magic on the ADF.
The education system churns out broken, emotionally fragile individuals, if the Police are recruiting university arts graduates then they need to be prepared for a higher proportion of them to wash out or freak out when faced with stressful situations.

Gee Whiz, all that's being suggested is that
more be done to address suicide rates in the force.
To investigate why officers develop these illnesses
and what can be done to counter them. All that's
being asked is for the force to at least recognise
that there is a problem, not cover it, but act on it.

Perhaps the training of police officers needs to be
looked at - is it adequate? Just stop to think for a moment
at how much longer it takes to train teachers, plumbers,
electricians, paramedics, nurses, et cetera. All with
responsibilities that could be said to be less stressful
than those of police officers. It takes a few months only
to train a police officer, about the same time that it takes
to train a soldier. Now compare - who has the greater
responsibility? Do any of the others mentioned commit
suicide or suffer from PTSD on this scale? It is obvious
also that appropriate screening of candidates for the force
is not adequate.

Hi (again) FOXY...

No, that's not entirely correct apropos training. The initial training is quite brief (circa 18 to 20 weeks?). It's changed considerably since I joined nearly forty five years ago now. But police are always undertaking training for one thing and another, so training per se, is not the answer ?

The answer to this complex question will not be found with some academic, who'd never worn a uniform. Rather it's from within, where someone who understands the culture, the structure, and the intricacies of the job itself - somewhere therein exists the answer ?

For heaven sake don't bring in a tribe of civilians with more degrees to their name than the Masonic Lodge, and tell working coppers what's wrong ! They in part, 'ARE' the problem ! As well as individuals with the distorted mindset of people like 'JAY OF MELBOURNE' with their imperious, grandiose, and arrogant perception of police. Individuals who know 'squat' about the life of a copper.

How are police suicides and deaths in custody linked?

Apart from the commonality of suicide?

To me they are two separate issues, police suicides are associated with PSTD and the deaths in custody are related to a number of issues, particularly as our prisons have become a de-facto mental health institution, not to mention drug and alcohol abuse by prisoners.

O Sung,
So Leftists like Commissioner Ken Lay and former Commissioner Nixon who actively punish the type of bonding behaviour and in house problem solving you're talking about aren't the problem? You could have fooled me.
The actual working cop can't win can he? If he speaks out about something wrong he's accused of disloyalty but if he keeps silent he's accused of corruption.
My view of policing is distorted by the negative image projected by the Police force command,the lack of confidence in general duties Police among citizens is the result of the disparaging way in which the bosses speak of their staff and the way they're seen as hobbled by political correctness and that they're not allowed to do their job, to get stuck into the bad guys for fear of negative public opinion or potential lawsuits.
I used to respect the Police, but that was back in the days when I still feared them and believed them to be more capable of dealing with problems than ordinary citizens.

Oh and by the way, if you want to see the end point of Left wing political interference in Police operations go to the CNN website and watch the live pictures of burning shops and cars in Missouri. If you're observant you might hear the unmistakable crackle of small arms as the looters fire on the Police, ambulance and fire brigade...in '68 the cops and national guard were rolling up and down the streets in half tracks machine gunning Negro rioters wherever they found them.

Yes, and 'back in '68' is where you belong JoM, hanging out with all your KKK friends and their guns.
You are a disgrace...

It is very sad to learn about the suicide cases in the police department. Stressful job and trauma is one of the main reason for suicide. Now what is the remedy? Continuous psychological counseling is a great way of dealing suicide tendency among the police officers.
<a href="http://www.precimaxclean.com.au/">Akhtar Buccus</a>

Sad. Very sad. Many of these officers will be able to claim under TPD which could do something to help soften any financial blows or lack of support. www.pksimpsonsuperclaims.com.au do a very good job and i help spread awareness on this throughout Australia through my twitter account TPD Australia - https://twitter.com/TPD_Awareness

It's sad but many ppl become depressed because they feel they have no options left to take. I was one of them and found out the path back starts with taking little steps.

re: above. Sorry. links didnt show.

http://www.pksimpsonsuperclaims.com.au
for more info on TPD and what police officers can do.

my help account for all aussies -
http://twitter.com/TPD_Awareness

I would like to Thank everyone who has contributed to
this discussion. And Thanks especially to all those
who tried to answer why police officers develop
these illnesses and suggestions of what can be done to
counter them.

For me this discussion has now run its course.
Hopefully with enough pressure from former police
officers, from organisations like Lifeline, Beyond Blue,
and wives and families - the force and governments
will take action and not continue to cover the problem.
The sooner that action is taken, the better. We can't
afford to keep losing police offciers.

See you all on another discussion.