Wandering through a large book shop today my attention was drawn to a newly released book by; Major Michael MORI. titled: 'Company of Cowards - Bush Howard and Injustices at Guantanamo Bay'. Maj. MORI was the US Military appointed lawyer to defend David HICKS.

Having glanced at the brief synopsis contained in the book I immediately placed it back in it's rack. Having done so I wondered why it is today, some people having been caught in circumstances that clearly reflect some guilt - after the dust had settled, seemed to be elevated to almost hero status ? I even heard that a 'fan club' had been formed by certain enlightened members of our community, ostensibly the 'Left' I would've thought ?

Even the inimitable entrepreneur Dick SMITH, threw his influential weight behind Mr Hick's, all the while calling for his immediate release, and even going so far as finding suitable employment for him ? I've no problem with that, it's the 'morality' that I question ?

There are many 'criminals' - some never having been convicted, who also receive similar hero status, some even lauded by the media, often being called upon to provide commentary on matters of criminality ?

Yet there are thousands upon thousands of 'faceless' individuals who are by the nature of their status, or employment are hero's, who are regularly cast as the villains in society ? As an example; 'Police allow convict to escape' or 'Prison guards bring in alcohol' or perhaps 'Customs Officers allow friend through with drugs' or 'Paramedics too slow to save heart attack victim says relative' or 'Australian soldiers seen to mistreat prisoners' ? And, because it's written, so it must be true. Unless you're a villain, and even when it is true, it doesn't matter we'll forgive you !

Whenever one of those number above venture to speak out, they're described in part as '...right wing warriors (who apparently) permeate the blogs & internet sites, magazines etc. so many...' ?

Yes o sung wu, the David HICKS of this world, who chose to go off to be trained as terrorists, are obviously anti Howard/Abbott, & that is enough for the left. With haters such as the hard left, any enemy of my enemy is my friend. As long as they are anti Howard/Abbott, they are welcome.

In many cases the terrorists is only doing what our hard left would actually like to do, but lack the guts to do more than shout. They are even more disgusting than the David Hicks, as unlike him, they are often bright enough to know full well, the result their actions will bring but just don't care.

Talking about heroes, I will be dropping our flag to half mast tomorrow 29th, for the Police Remembrance Day.

We should never forget the sacrifice and service of those killed in the line of duty.

We should remember too, the police still serving or retired and the relatives and loved ones who wait, or waited, for them to come home safely, duty done.

To all reading this, including their family members, thank you.

onthebeach

always respected the Police but I must say those who now lead mardi gras have turned into pc social engineers.

runner,

Hi there.

I don't know much at all about the Mardi Gras. They are probably reflecting the will of their political masters.

Hi there RUNNER, ONTHEBEACH and HASBEEN...

ONTHEBEACH...

A close colleague of mine (my partner), at the start of one of our shifts, said to me, (I was senior member) that he was taking our car for an hour or two, to undertake some enquiries. No probs. I had a Brief to prepare. Generally though, you NEVER do enquiries on your own ? Come around 1100h, he'd not returned, and there was no response on the radio. We organised a search in the area where he'd given his last radio check. He was found a bit before noon, in some parkland, parked almost out of sight behind a small copse of trees. He'd eaten his Mod 10. Married, several teenage kids, with nearly eighteen years up in the job. Go figure ? Lest 'I' forget ?

Yes RUNNER...

That Mardi Gras stuff was just coming in as I retired. Ostensibly the purpose of the Mardi Gras policy was to show all and sundry the police force was an 'inclusive' organisation, and non-judgemental. Therefore by openly accepting the purpose of the Mardi Gras the police tried to put on a 'human face', so to speak. Most of the rank and file were pretty filthy on the subject, still you do as you're told, simple as that. The government wanted a 'touchy feely' police 'service' without resorting to the word 'force' ?

Hi there HASBEEN...

After the David HICKS catastrophe I figured I'd seen it all ! All this was on 'a LNP watch' under no lesser light than Mr J Howard PM ? I realise much pressure was applied to have the US release Mr HICKS, purely because he was an Aussie. No question of his guilt or innocence, just he was an Aussie, and you simply cannot lock up an Aussie ! According to David HICKS's 'Leftist' fan and cheer squad ?
Beats me HASBEEN.

<<Even the inimitable entrepreneur Dick SMITH, threw his influential weight behind Mr Hick's>> << I even heard that a 'fan club' had been formed by certain enlightened members of our community, ostensibly the 'Left' I would've thought?>>
<<I even heard that a 'fan club' had been formed by certain enlightened members of our community, ostensibly the 'Left' I would've thought?>>
<<Even the inimitable entrepreneur Dick SMITH, threw his influential weight behind Mr Hick's>> Dick Smith a "Lefty". A capitalist with a conscience is not a "Lefty" he is a civil libertarian.

Some light reading;

http://www.cla.asn.au/

.

Dick Smith might like a cause, but his judgement and credibility suffered through his support for Hicks.

http://tinyurl.com/Mohammed-Dawood

Free speech. Both ways.

When those with the rose coloured glasses step out of the limelight and go home for the hot roast, wine and being tucked into a comfy bed, there are those who are left to shoulder the burden of keeping it all so nice and safe for them.

There are thousands of people, good citizens down on their luck, more deserving of a helping hand.

Andrew Bolt, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and Alan Jones would be so proud of their followers here on this topic. Right wing PC rules here.

May May

'Andrew Bolt, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and Alan Jones would be so proud of their followers here on this topic. Right wing PC rules here. '

we know May May you prefer the tax payer funded propaganda that allows you and terrorist to claim vicitm status. You might just one day have to face up to your responsibilities instead of playing the victim.

I agree with ONTHEBEACH & RUNNER...

I believe Dick SMITH threw his hand in, with one of the least deserving individuals, in terms of David HICKS. And those 'Lefties' the likes of this MAY MAY and PAUL1405 make me absolutely nauseous with their nonsensical tripe ! Australia unfortunately has more than their fair share of cowards and pretenders, we really need no more ?

Interestingly our little 'consciences' friend, the manifestation of a true utopian visionary, none other than PAUL1405 who would like to draw our collective attentions to none other than that erudite pillar of justice for all - Civil Liberties Australia ! What an amazing moralist group these folks are ? These are the people that make the average copper's job so much harder, and far more high risk, without ever wearing a blue uniform to justify their stance ? Aka - the crooks friend !

Imagine if we were to be plunged into another major war, the likes of PAUL1405 and his miserable cohorts would be out demonstrating 'again' as 'consciences objectors'. What sickening, useless human beings, his and his kind are !

Oh so funny, runner in his PC moment now lumps me with terrorists. What is it with these PC Andrew Bolt worshipers? It's funny entertainment though.

Well MAY MAY I suspect you really wish to be accepted amongst this august group of realists and pragmatists. Trouble is you've neither the necessary efficacy nor the tenability in the college of life, upon which admission requires ? Or are you simply among the other pallid, inane members of the confused 'Left' all of whom are too busy attempting to secure their next taxpayer funded allowance ?

Ahh, now the Andrew Bolt worshipers are resorting to name calling. O sung wu just revealed a lot about "himself" (and he didn't even realise it). Thanks o sung wu.

Gee MAY MAY - you're repartee is so razor sharp eh ? I thought I was most complimentary about you, so there you go, one should realise you can never please a LEFTY, otherwise than by greasing their sweaty little plams with taxpayer's money.

Ahh, even more name calling. What an intellect.

"Why it is today, some people having been caught in circumstances that clearly reflect some guilt - after the dust had settled, seemed to be elevated to almost hero status ?"

It's tradition: Spartacus, Robin Hood, Ned Kelly....

o sung wu,
You are really on your bike old mate. Forget these crass underdone social misfits that only crawl out from under the rocks when it suita them.
Remember Kipling and his immortal "If"
or the big "D"..."Go gentle into the night"
Rest you heart and mind. These people will worry themselves into the mire of their pettiness.
You and I and a few others here did our 'BIT'
Leave it and "go gentle into the night..."

G'day there CHRISGAFF1000...

Very good to hear from you old mate ! While it's true I am working up into a bit of a lather, it's very difficult to metaphorically 'stare down' some of these moralistic pacifists ? All the while we've got our good people proudly wearing their Aussie Khakis, patiently waiting around in the heat and the dust for their orders, in some unpronounceable place, somewhere in Persia ?

Thanks for the timely 'heads up'. Hope we get the opportunity to speak again soon. Until then, '...gently into the night, I shall go...'

On David Hicks; Was he stupid? Yes. Was he foolish, naive, misguided? Yes all of those things and more. Did the Americans have the right to mistreat him, and deny him justice? No.
Not known as a "Lefty" publication 'The Fin Review' on the book 'In the company of cowards: Bush, Howard and injustice at Guantanamo', by Michael Mori, (not a known "lefty" either) the former US Marine lawyer who spent four years defending David Hicks.

To quote the article " is a compelling and sobering account of a western democratic government losing its head and sacrificing principles in the cause of national security."

There are those on this very forum who would readily trade their's and everybody elses freedoms and civil liberties, for a "police state" in the misguided belief/hope it would bring them security at home. Conniving politicians like Abbott and co, can easily exploit these peoples fears and misgivings to introduce these so called necessary regulations to create their tough state of control.

In a speech to the Parliament last Monday, Abbott said the "delicate balance" between freedom and security would have to shift for some time in light of the heightened terror risk.

http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/book_provides_timely_reminder_terrorism_aoijMhciFOMDb3gNBkEm3M

When the master bids the foot soldier does his bidding... Part 1.

Daniel Somers was a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was part of Task Force Lightning, an intelligence unit. In 2004-2005, he was mainly assigned to a Tactical Human-Intelligence Team (THT) in Baghdad, Iraq, where he ran more than 400 combat missions as a machine gunner in the turret of a HumVee, interviewed countless Iraqis ranging from concerned citizens to community leaders and government officials, and interrogated dozens of insurgents and terrorist suspects. In 2006-2007, Daniel worked with Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) through his former unit in Mosul where he ran the Northern Iraq Intelligence Center. His official role was as a senior analyst for the Levant (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel, and part of Turkey). Daniel suffered greatly from PTSD and had been diagnosed with traumatic brain injury and several other war-related conditions. On June 10, 2013, Daniel wrote the following letter to his family before taking his life. Daniel was 30 years old. His wife and family have given permission to publish it.

I am sorry that it has come to this.
The fact is, for as long as I can remember my motivation for getting up every day has been so that you would not have to bury me. As things have continued to get worse, it has become clear that this alone is not a sufficient reason to carry on. The fact is, I am not getting better, I am not going to get better, and I will most certainly deteriorate further as time goes on. From a logical standpoint, it is better to simply end things quickly and let any repercussions from that play out in the short term than to drag things out into the long term.
You will perhaps be sad for a time, but over time you will forget and begin to carry on. Far better that than to inflict my growing misery upon you for years and decades to come, dragging you down with me. It is because I love you that I can not do this to you.

Part 2.

You will come to see that it is a far better thing as one day after another passes during which you do not have to worry about me or even give me a second thought. You will find that your world is better without me in it.
I really have been trying to hang on, for more than a decade now. Each day has been a testament to the extent to which I cared, suffering unspeakable horror as quietly as possible so that you could feel as though I was still here for you. In truth, I was nothing more than a prop, filling space so that my absence would not be noted. In truth, I have already been absent for a long, long time.
My body has become nothing but a cage, a source of pain and constant problems. The illness I have has caused me pain that not even the strongest medicines could dull, and there is no cure. All day, every day a screaming agony in every nerve ending in my body. It is nothing short of torture. My mind is a wasteland, filled with visions of incredible horror, unceasing depression, and crippling anxiety, even with all of the medications the doctors dare give. Simple things that everyone else takes for granted are nearly impossible for me. I can not laugh or cry. I can barely leave the house. I derive no pleasure from any activity. Everything simply comes down to passing time until I can sleep again. Now, to sleep forever seems to be the most merciful thing.
You must not blame yourself. The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from.

Part 3.

I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of.
To force me to do these things and then participate in the ensuing cover-up is more than any government has the right to demand. Then, the same government has turned around and abandoned me. They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them.
Beyond that, there are the host of physical illnesses that have struck me down again and again, for which they also offer no help. There might be some progress by now if they had not spent nearly twenty years denying the illness that I and so many others were exposed to. Further complicating matters is the repeated and severe brain injuries to which I was subjected, which they also seem to be expending no effort into understanding. What is known is that each of these should have been cause enough for immediate medical attention, which was not rendered.
Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured “over prescribing epidemic,” which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak.
However, when the challenges facing a person are already so great that all but the weakest would give up, these extra factors are enough to push a person over the edge.

Part 4.

Is it any wonder then that the latest figures show 22 veterans killing themselves each day? That is more veterans than children killed at Sandy Hook, every single day. Where are the huge policy initiatives? Why isn’t the president standing with those families at the state of the union? Perhaps because we were not killed by a single lunatic, but rather by his own system of dehumanization, neglect, and indifference.
It leaves us to where all we have to look forward to is constant pain, misery, poverty, and dishonor.
And for what? Bush’s religious lunacy? Cheney’s ever growing fortune and that of his corporate friends? Is this what we destroy lives for
Since then, I have tried everything to fill the void. I tried to move into a position of greater power and influence to try and right some of the wrongs. I deployed again, where I put a huge emphasis on saving lives. The fact of the matter, though, is that any new lives saved do not replace those who were murdered. It is an exercise in futility.
Then, I pursued replacing destruction with creation. For a time this provided a distraction, but it could not last. The fact is that any kind of ordinary life is an insult to those who died at my hand. How can I possibly go around like everyone else while the widows and orphans I created continue to struggle? If they could see me sitting here in suburbia, in my comfortable home working on some music project they would be outraged, and rightfully so.
I thought perhaps I could make some headway with this film project, maybe even directly appealing to those I had wronged and exposing a greater truth, but that is also now being taken away from me. I fear that, just as with everything else that requires the involvement of people who can not understand by virtue of never having been there, it is going to fall apart as careers get in the way.

Continued... as my post limit is up.

Paul1405,

Where were you and the Greens when Julia Gillard, PM of the Labor/Greens government and her first law officer the Attorney General, told an Australian citizen, Julian Assange, that without even a trial they would render him a Stateless Person by not allowing him back into his own country?

Gillard's horrific, outrageous threat sent shock waves of indignation and disgust through embassies everywhere.

You are over-egging the custard regarding Mohammed Darwood, or is it now simply Hicks, the stories are all so confusing. The SBS championed his interests, which to a taxpayer was strange.

Many agree with Miranda Devine's summation and you cannot say they all want a 'Police State',

"Listening to David Hicks's speech at the Sydney Writers' Festival last weekend you'd think he'd been over in Afghanistan wiping the brow of AIDS sufferers and holding the hands of leprosy victims."
[Miranda Devine HERALD SUN May 26, 2011]

You do better to stick with the more supportable claim that the then Australian government could have been more active like the Brits regarding their nationals, in securing his release sooner to Australian authorities. In view its treatment of Assange, one wonders how a Gillard/Greens government would have handled Hicks. What do you say to that?

The OP questions whether Hicks should be feted as some sort of hero, and some would argue that the taxpayer-funded ABC and SBS have contributed to that image. Why?

It's all very subjective who are viewed as
villains and who are viewed as heroes.
The divide can even
be down political party lines. - for example,
as in the case of Margaret Thatcher, and Richard
Nixon. Many of the French even today
cannot decide whether Napoleon Bonaparte, was
a hero or a villain. His lust for power had left more
than 1 million French dead - yet he also achieved
a great deal.

We've had a few examples of our own -
from Rolf Harris, to Mark "Chopper" Read,
(his book was a best-seller, and they made a movie
about him), and of course - Ned Kelly,
to mention just a few.

And then we have the strange case of David Hicks...

There's an interesting book about the strange case
of David Hicks:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/book-reviews/detainee-002-the-case-of-david-hicks/2007/05/11/1178390533929.html

Some of the points raised were -

1) The face of Australian public indiferrence from the
two major political parties.

2) His detention without a trial by Australia's major
ally had people "ordinary" Australians thinking
electorally that something was rotten in the camps of
Guantanamo Bay.

3) Locking up a person for 5 years without a trial is
wrong.

'afternoon to you ONTHEBEACH...

Firstly, I sincerely hope that 'ALBIE MANTON IN DARWIN' has the opportunity to finish his piece concerning the very sad events leading up to the unfortunate suicide of a US soldier who served in Iraq ? Too many similar stories of the awful effects of PTSD abound unfortunately. Would it concern the 'Left' - I doubt it ?

David HICKS is certainly a hero to some, but a villain to many others. I've heard it said that he was locked up in GITMO for five years without trial, and that's a clear deprivation of his liberty and denial of justice.

However, without further entangling myself into being identified as just another rabid 'Right Wing' crazed aggressor, if Mr Hicks were to be caught in Vietnam, during my tour, attired and armed as he was, as the enemy, the least of his worries would've been, spending too much time locked-up without due process ?

You see ONTHEBEACH, Mr Hicks would've received his punishment, there and then, in country, contemporaneously with how he was actually caught ! Dressed in the uniform of the enemy, and fully armed with the weapons and munitions of the enemy. What other conclusions would any reasonable man draw, faced with exactly the same evidence ? Evidence of a kind, that was completely irrefutable and far beyond any doubt whatsoever ! Beyond that which was even 'reasonable' ! I could only wish that many of the matters that I've had to deal with, was as strong as that of MR HICKS'S guilt !

But hey, ONTHEBEACH what would YOU, MIRANDA DIVINE, and I know ? Me being identified by the LEFT as yet another fanatical and overly aggressive, 'Right Wing' warmonger ? Take it easy ol' fella, and thank you very much indeed for that Link, I appreciate it.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Well you've got me wondering now - who exactly
of the "Left" has made all those accusations
against you.?

I trust you don't think it was me on the other
site dealing with the International Day of Peace -
where I was responding on page 10 - to
the link that was taken from the "frontpage
magazine." That is an American far-right conservative
online magazine and those are the "right-wing warriors,"
to whom I was referring.
They aggressively combat the efforts of anyone they
perceive as the "radical left." I certainly do not
include you in that group - and if you think I meant
you - I unreservedly apologise to you.

Dear FOXY...

I'm sorry. I did think you were referring to me in particular because of my intractable stance on the guilt of Ms Jane FONDA. Vietnam runs very deep through every part of me. That of course is my problem, totally and immutably my problem alone, nobody else is responsible. There I lost God, and later my most dearest and closest friend. I would respectfully ask that this matter is not mentioned again. A misunderstanding nothing more. Thank you so much FOXY.

Dear O Sung Wu,

You are one amazing soul who can fill
me with joy on this forum.

I'm so glad that we've sorted this out.

Take care.

Just posted this to the wrong thread.

Dear o sung wu,

You have given me a good chuckle.

A few weeks back on another thread you put to me the following;

“Another matter STEELEREDUX, by employing insulting, offensive, and disparaging language, in order to offend BANJO and others herein, simply because they dare disagree with your somewhat perverted and prejudiced views, is quite deplorable, thus rendering you as an arrogant and imperious individual!”
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6547#195909

I challenged you to show me where I had used “insulting, offensive, and disparaging language” and you declined to reply.

This I know is an absolute fact, whatever I may have said doesn't come within a bull's roar of what you have dished out on this thread.

Here are a few examples;

“And those 'Lefties' the likes of this MAY MAY and PAUL1405 make me absolutely nauseous with their nonsensical tripe ! Australia unfortunately has more than their fair share of cowards and pretenders, we really need no more ?”

“Aka - the crooks friend !”

“ PAUL1405 and his miserable cohorts would be out demonstrating 'again' as 'consciences objectors'. What sickening, useless human beings, his and his kind are !”

“other pallid, inane members of the confused 'Left' all of whom are too busy attempting to secure their next taxpayer funded allowance ?”

“greasing their sweaty little plams(sic) with taxpayer's money.”

So my friend please don't ever accuse me in your pious manner about being rude or disrespectful to other forum contributors. You sir have most emphatically permanently lost that right. Further, hypocrisy is utterly unappealing.

What is a little disconcerting is that you open a thread in quite a measured manner, posing what might be said are interesting questions, but after a couple of posts you go off the deep end, full of bluster and indignation, insults and put downs, slander and generalisations. I'm not saying the same accusation can not be directed toward me but I would hope I am far more consistent.

Cont...

Cont...

Look, I don't think you are schizophrenic, or as balmy as some of the others on this forum, but something is obviously amiss. Perhaps you are taking Viagra for your gout. Whatever it is I'm happy to go toe to toe, if we both consider the other a bully then perhaps it is right that we kick sand in each others faces rather than inflict ourselves on others.

I will start. Anybody who thought it was just fine and dandy to have an Australian tortured and abused, locked up without a trial for 5 years, because of a very tenuous link to terrorism, is someone who is a coward. All those fair weather patriots who crap their pants and support throwing habeas corpus, the rule of law, and natural justice out the window just so they can sleep a little easier at night are not the kind of people we want having any influence in our society.

Now we can make this as personal as you want, I will leave that up to you.

For now though I offer you with the following;

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gout/basics/treatment/con-20019400

Cheaper than them little blue pills.

Good evening to you Dr STEELEREDUX...

I was under the mistaken impression you and you're clinic only consulted with your Islamic patients - my error Doctor. As their spokesman and proponent it's obvious that you were never in the position to earn the Queens Shilling ? Obviously I'll not embarrass you with material that would obviously confuse your revolutionary Islamic predilections !

Concerning your titular brother one David HICKS, tiresome as it is, to continually recapitulate his treacherous 'deeds' - if the circumstances of his capture were to occur in South Vietnam in my time, his worry of an indefinite detention without the benefit of 'due process' would indeed be moot. Attired as he was, in company with known terrorists, while being armed, he'd be dealt with immediately.

Now I understand the events that I've briefly outlined for you, may well confound and perplex your delicate, LEFT leaning sensibilities. Therefore it's incumbent upon me to make some apology for not allowing for your ignorance of the military environment and camaraderie when undertaking active service. Bring it on, my perverse Mufti mate !

Dear o sung wu,

Your position appears to be that you are a better person than I am because you would be more than happy to kill an unarmed prisoner of war without any trial or due process and I would not.

Just think about that for a moment.

You sir are a rather poignant example of the vicissitudes inflicted on a person's mind when they are trained and ordered to engage in acts that would be foreign to any normal human being.

You have spoken about your 'buggered mind” and your years in counselling to address the impacts on your mental health of serving in Vietnam. You have acknowledged so many who came “home to a ruined life, a disastrous marriage, lost careers, and estranged friendships”. You have written about “mood swings, explosive tempers, the melancholy, the 'startle' syndrome, and many other symptoms”.

Vietnam was a dirty, nasty little war, started by the US, that cost so many lives especially Vietnamese and for what?

This documentary speaks to the mindset that pervaded, the rapes, the massacres, and the summary executions.
http://youtu.be/Kj8qYd68rxE

Don't ask me to be proud of Australia's involvement in that war. I am proud of those who saw the war for what it was and marched in their tens of thousands to try and end it, to try and stop the procession of young Aussie men returning either in a body bag, or maimed, or to struggle with demons not of their own making for the rest of their lives.

I will accept the position that by their service the Australians who fought in Vietnam may have helped in some small measure to strengthen the relationship with the US and there are those who see value in that.

But I will continue to be deeply resentful of the price people like yourself have had to pay.

I acknowledge the circumstances that have allowed you to see summary execution as acceptable, but there is no virtue in it, rather it is a sad reflection on the cost of immoral wars on those who participate in them.

o sung wu,

You had me fooled mate.

I had assumed you were one of the few around here who attempted to look at things in a half balanced manner - then...

"“And those 'Lefties' the likes of this MAY MAY and PAUL1405 make me absolutely nauseous with their nonsensical tripe ! Australia unfortunately has more than their fair share of cowards and pretenders, we really need no more ?”

“Aka - the crooks friend !”

“ PAUL1405 and his miserable cohorts would be out demonstrating 'again' as 'consciences objectors'. What sickening, useless human beings, his and his kind are !”

........

I posted part of this quote on another thread, but it's even more applicable here it seems.

Goering was interviewed during a break in the Nuremberg trial [on war]:

"...But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy people have a say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh that is all well and good, but voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to do the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Seems it does....

SteeleRedux, thumbs up to your above post! This fellow come onto this forum with his good mornings and good evenings, then proceeds to personally attack those that don't think like him. He describes me as "What sickening, useless human beings, his (Paul1405) and his kind are!
I am proud to say as a teenager, I along with thousands of other Australians, took part in the anti Vietnam 'Moratorium' protests. I clearly recall unbadged, fat guttered coppers, ably assisted by members of the Nazi Party, punching defenseless kids, assaulting them with police batons, dragging young student girls by their hair, as they yelled and screamed in pain, off to paddy wagons to be charged with trumped up crap, resisting arrest and assaulting police. I did not witness these barbarous acts in the streets of Moscow or Hanoi, but in the streets of Sydney, Australia. Do you want to deny that took place Mr Copper? No doubt you were off doing your "thing" in Vietnam at the time.

Oh! SteeleRedux, you gave me the laugh of the week with a few words "Perhaps you are taking Viagra for your gout" Appealed to my sense of humor, still laughing.

A look at history.

http://www.abc.net.au/archives/80days/stories/2012/01/19/3411534.htm

I cannot see where o sung wu is attempting to justify the Vietnam War.

He is drawing a comparison between the treatment of servicemen, young Aussies who could not vote but were conscripted to put their lives on the line, with the hero-worship now being accorded to Hicks, whose own boasting, arrogant claims identified him as a despicable traitor.

It should be noted from the outset that very few people would find anything about Hicks himself or what he did, good or praiseworthy. Any dispute centers on how governments should represent citizens apparently down on their luck abroad. Both sides of government do not have the best record in that regard (see my earlier post about the Gillard+Greens government and Julian Assange).

Someone has posted a link that has a photo of demonstrators at a moratorium against the Vietnam War. It is true that police removed badges to assault and grope demonstrators as they arrested them, and worse. There is video footage.

It is also true that anti-Vietnam war demonstrators while largely ordinary citizens (mainly students), there were scattered among them some very nasty activists indeed trying to foment anarchist and communist mayhem. The (usually student) organisers who had an interest in peaceful protest and applied for march permits, constantly strived to ensure that protests were peaceful and obeyed the law as much as was possible.

to be continued..

contd..

There was a chasm of difference of Bungonia (Gorge) proportions between the thousands of peaceful demonstrators and the left extremists, serial nuisances all - who hated everything about Australian democracy, the US, the military, the police etc etc and still do. The latter were and still are the grubs who sledged those young conscripts, and it was NOT, NEVER, the mainstream of the protest movement or the civil population doing it.

What men like o sung wu who did their duty (and were damaged in the process and harmed again on return by successive governments who preferred to forget them) need to understand and be assured of, is that the general population - all of the decent, respectable people who are the population mainstream - know the truth and thank them for their duty done, their sacrifice and yes, emphatically YES!, we are very sorry for their lost youth and for a lifetime of nightmares to be lived as well.

To conclude, Australian forces were fighting communist takeover of the south by communists from the north, the fragile nationalist movement having been routed by the communists in the first Vietnam War. Whether the eventual outcome of the second Vietnam War was good for the South Vietnamese, others can judge.

Whether Australia should have been there or not is irrelevant to the OP. It was not canvassed. It is even more irrelevant though because as a conscript o sung wu could not even vote of the subject. That is what much of the mainstream protest was about of course, conscription, and for a war where the issues were poorly understood then and now.

'afternoon to you Poirot...

I'm very sorry to have disappointed you 'personally' POIROT. Sorry for employing language of a kind that neither suits yours, or others, who's Socialist agenda or prescription for the future of this great country, has been sullied in any way.

But my greatest regret is reserved for you personally POIROT. It's evident that my obvious character deficiencies are so absolutely abhorrent to you, that you feel the need to aggressively draw my attention to those flaws.

Over time I've enjoyed our light jousting and banter on so many topics, as I've always believed you're a lady of considerable intellect, both you and FOXY together ! To offend either of you so badly, gives me sufficient pause as to whether it's worth continuing with both OLO and the Forum per se.

Dear O Sung Wu,

You did not offend me.
You misunderstood me - mistakenly thinking
my earlier comments on another thread were
directed at you. As I explained, they were not
and I apologised for having caused you any
stress.

As for your questioning your further contributions
to this forum. We all have done that at various
times, especially when the personal attacks
get particularly nasty from various sources.
We're only human after all - and words do hurt.

Freedom of speech is probably one of the most misunderstood
of our rights. We don't have the absolute right to say
whatever we want, whenever we want to whomever we want
on any topic. Not if it harms another person.

Anyway, I hope that you will continue to contribute to
this forum and that we shall continue to inter-act
with each other.

STEELEREDUX...

I'll dispense with the usual pleasantries as they appear to upset PAUL1405, that brave soul who stood alone against the hoards of marching 'baby killers' on their way to embark on the HMAS Melbourne and on to Vung Tau, South Vietnam. Heavens I wouldn't want to do that now, would I ? STEELEREDUX is this language acceptable do you think ? Or is it too accusatory, too 'nasty' perhaps ? I wouldn't want our 'poor PAUL' to become uncomfortable ?

I've read your latest thread and it's quite apparent you've touched upon a number of aspects of those times. You're knowledge is not without merit concerning the effects that war.....sorry, it wasn't a war as I was so instructed by another contributor herein ? Concerning the effects of that 'squabble' upon those who took part. I can't begin to know, I personally was very young, not at all 'gung ho' but otherwise oblivious to the political reasons why we were there.

Your summation of many of the medical problems that occurred to many of those who served there, is probably on the money too ? I do not like speaking about my own medical difficulties, other than to say I'm under DVA and Repatriation care myself. I'm still vertical for the moment.

Your comments concerning the cause, nature and lasting effects of the entire Vietnam conflict is probably as valid as anything I could add myself. One needed not to necessarily have gone over there to understand the complexities associated with it all. The only benefit (and what an absurd word to use, 'benefit') of doing a tour 'in country', one learnt much about oneself, as well as others under similar pressures ?

There are many unfortunately who like to 'guild the lily' about the many dreadful incidents

o sung wu,

nah...just a dose of reality.

You can lay into fellow posters with the best of 'em, just noting it is all.

Of course, we all think we're right - and we carry our prejudices, enmities and loyalties around with us like an oxygen tank.

I sometimes wonder if it's worth debating at all, since the man is so imperfect and his struggles to prove himself the opposite so hilarious.

I've just being reading Blaise Pascal's "Pensées"...and this line struck me:

"...it is a wise ignorance which knows itself."

That is to say that we have an adequate knowledge and pretend to understand everything.

When the reality is that we understand very little.

I hope my ignorance can attain such wisdom.

Gawd....spare me from typos!

"....since the man is so imperfect...'

Should read:

"...since "man" is so imperfect..."

STEELEREDUX...

...an accidental transmission unfortunately - as I was saying, those who 'guild the lily' somewhat and who make all these outlandish accusations about the moral conduct of Oz troops over there, are 'way out of wack' I'm afraid. Moreover they've never been there, nor likely to ever go there. Discipline was strictly maintained even more so when 'in theatre', put a foot wrong, and look out ! Regrettably, the same can't be said for a few of the US troops. A case of too young, too immature, and inadequate training ? Many died unnecessarily in my humble opinion ? They (the yanks) called in 20 x more 'dust offs' then us ? Perhaps they had 20 x more contacts than us ?

You and I are (naturally) diametrically opposed in ever way. But you will vigorously argue your point, right or wrong. Whereas PAUL1405 grimly hangs onto your shirt-tails in some vain hope of obtaining some of the reflected glory from your argument, for himself ! He's almost a cartoon character, I could picture this little guy with masses of perspiration emanating in droplets from his excited countenance, yelling 'me too' 'me too' as he vainly scrambles around behind you...? All rather sad really ?

Concerning your assertion of Mr HICKS receiving summary justice ? I don't know, I feel safe in telling you, that Mr HICKS wouldn't be treated to 'tea and cake' put it that way ?

o sung wu, <<I feel safe in telling you, that Mr HICKS wouldn't be treated to 'tea and cake' put it that way?>> before that it was <<the least of his (Mr HICKS) worries would've been, spending too much time locked-up without due process?>>.

Why be so coy? Why not simply say; I would dress Hicks in an orange jump suit, I would dress up like a black ninja, face the camera, deliver a diatribe about Ho Chi Minh, and Bobs your uncle, no more Hicks, then I would post the whole macabre episode on the internet for all to see. Sorry I'm wrong... there was no internet during The Vietnam War.

p/s There is nothing you can possibly post on this forum, that would upset me in the slightest, so feel free to post what you will.

'...I'm sorry...there was no internet during the Vietnam war...' ?

Neither was there a PAUL1405 in the Vietnam War, he was too busy 'ducking it' !

Nah Wu, I didn't have to, my old man was a rich Liberal Party member, paid for me to go to Uni, got me a 'Student Deferment', until it was all over. As was common practice for us of the ruling elite at the time, fully support the war to the hilt, but keep your own kid out of the army. Nah, I actually refused to register for conscription, so was automatically conscripted for refusing. But since they only prosecuted about 1 in 20 who failed to register (better than the odds of the birthday ballot they ran, I think those odd were 1 in 14), both ways you would have to be unlucky.

'Truth' unfortunately, is another rectitude that you've clearly managed to evade --> PAUL1405 !

Dear o sung wu,

Please do not misunderstand my point. I do not really give two hoots how you want to address people on this forum. What I was objecting to, or perhaps more accurately what I was pointing out, was your hypocrisy.

As the bible extols us 'And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?'

My caring about civil discourse being trashed on this forum was beaten out of me quite a while ago when the 'new breed' elbowed their way in. It would be nice to have it back again because they were very engaging times but I'm no longer prepared to lose any sleep over it.

It should be noted however that there are those who do care, and the fact they are attempting to prompt a change in direction from you means that they care about you. They have not yet tossed you on the pile of incorrigibles for whom reason and civil discourse is an anathema.

But I literally don't care what you do.

You may highlight our differences but in some ways we are quite similar. We can both be irascible old pricks and don't mind taking a big swing every now and again without it always being justified.

My advice which you can take or leave is to try and take each thread as a fresh start. To attack Paul1405 when all he had done was to post a couple of quotes from you and a link to the Civil Liberties web site was always going to make you look like a tosser.

I fully admit there are blokes on here from your side whom I have deemed totally not worth the effort and there is no shame in having your own list. My default setting is to ignore.

Cont...

Cont...

You wrote;

“those who 'guild the lily' somewhat and who make all these outlandish accusations about the moral conduct of Oz troops over there, are 'way out of wack' I'm afraid.”

To me this 'lily guilding' is exactly what you have done. You directly made 'outlandish accusations about the moral conduct of Oz troops over there' namely that if they had found a David Hicks type over there they would have executed him out of hand. I don't believe that for a moment. This is what summary executions of those considered traitors or spies looks like http://youtu.be/jYj0cRSU-Fs?t=5m50s (not for the squeemish). As much as you might have an issue with the messenger Paul1405's comparison is a valid one.

I really do not have much time for David Hicks but it made me ashamed to be an Australian when the Poms went and got their lot out of the clutches of the US with single mindedness that should befit any government worth their salt (and Hicks was like a babe in the woods compared to some of their people). That there was only action on Hicks when he attempted to get an British passport was very telling.

However the bloke I did have a lot of time for was Hick's father, Terry. He was one hell of a determined man. I heard him speak in Ballarat while his son was still incarcerated. And who can forget him in an orange jumpsuit inside a cage on a New York street. His doggedness was to me pretty Australian.

Finally Paul1405 is certainly his own man with the only weakness I can see being an appreciation on the odd occasion of my rather warped humour.

So I leave you with the following;

o sung wu finally got the courage to tell his wife he thought she had been painting her eyebrows on too high.

She looked surprised.

Wu, 40 odd years is a long time, I'm over 60 now, but in many respects it seems like yesterday. Correct me if I'm wrong in what I say, time can cloud the memory. A bit more than a simple one liner <<'Truth' unfortunately, is another rectitude that you've clearly managed to evade --> PAUL1405!>>. I stand by what I posted above about student deferments and lotteries, as I do about the coppers actions and the protesters. Kids, and I'll call them kids, as 20 years old's were naive about Vietnam and most other things in life as well. I have never condemned those conscripted and sent to that crazy Asian war, they had no real choice. The fact Australia disowned them on their return is forever to our nations shame.
Its interesting about student protests of the 1960's, many were from middle and upper class families and had rejected their parents conservative view of the world, and protested the fact in a variety of ways from drug taking to civil disobedience A time of great social and moral change in Australia and most of the western world, not seen before or since. Maybe we should thank The Vietnam War for that.

STEELEREDUX...

Your last sentence completely escapes me ? I imagine the father of David HICKS did as any reasonable father would do, he 'defended' his son. I do wonder though, whenever Mr HICKS Snr. places his head upon his pillow at night, whether he 'really' feels proud of David, his son ?

This peculiar notion that you've adopted, concerning summary justice for Mr HICKS ? STEELEREDUX you've NEVER served, pity really. The only satisfactory answer for you, may be found in your latest copy of 'Boys Own' Annual ?

You've had the temerity to say that I've made these 'outlandish' comments about the moral conduct of OZ troops while in Vietnam, by inferring Mr HICK'S would be summarily dealt with ? As I recall some time back, your impassioned and fervent defence of your ISLAMIC brothers was palpable, when you're questioned ? That makes you a collaborator with ISAL, does it ? A simile I believe ? I recall another comment, your reply was like a burr in your jocks, I suggested you never wore a police uniform in Bankstown (an Islamic conclave) so you wouldn't know - your 'pained' retort, '...and neither had you...' ? Knowing full well I was plain clothes copper when I worked the region ?

Your problem STEELEREDUX, you cautiously 'cheery pick' - a bit here, a bit there, rather than engaging in a full and candid discussion asserting your position and while others argue theirs ?

When someone 'ticks' you off, your 'bleat' out '...well, bring it on...' You throw down the gauntlet, or 'mutter' some other inane diatribe. I realise you'd like to fashion yourself as the self-appointed Forum Guardian, the 'Defender of the Faith' - Problem is, to do so, you first should shed your feelings of vulnerability and being 'precious'. Otherwise your sensibilities may well get bruised !

You see STEELEREDUX you're an easy mark, and quite readable, if I can see it, and I'm a 'mug' so can most others ! Any time my 'insecure' friend, any time you choose !

Dear o sung wu,

Lol.

Geez mate we've gone from “But you will vigorously argue your point, right or wrong.” to “you cautiously 'cheery pick' - a bit here, a bit there, rather than engaging in a full and candid discussion asserting your position” in the space of two posts. I can't keep up.

I think you didn't take the doctor's advice and instead dropped another of those little blue pills. Although I am starting to see a pattern in the timing of your varied replies and have a secret suspicion the good old turps might be have a hand in it too.

But the sun is indeed well over the yard arm so we can only be grateful you have managed to negotiate the electric scooter back from the RSL, no doubt with the foot elevated to relieve the pain to vent your spleen at me again. Keeping the cardigan in the lap on the trip back was probably a good idea though. Don't want to spook the ladies.

Anyway mate, sleep it off and when the head clears a little, but before the shakes set, in go and have a re-read of my previous post and see if it becomes a little clearer.

I will state for the record though that what Terry Hicks did for his son was extraordinary and not something many others would have done.

Whether he is proud of his son or not is beside the point although I think any parent would be proud of their child if they manage to turn their lives around as David seems to have done.

In the end it is quite simple. Terry was David's father and he stepped up. The Australian government had one of its citizens held without trial for 5 years and they didn't. It matters very little what a few blowhards at the local RSL reckon they would do to him in the end respect for the rule of law is what separates us from groups like ISIS.

Poor ol' STEELEREDUX...

While it's perfectly true, I may need to consign my ambulatory needs to a trusty scooter to convey myself to a RSL to share a moment or two with those 'blowhards' there, I'd nevertheless be welcome. And you...? I think not, maybe as a social member, nothing else ? Your nearest Mosque might better suit. There again, treachery and betrayal comes in many guises, still I suspect you're quite comfortable with that, being an integral part of your nature.

Problem is chicanery and deception has a nasty little stink about it, as does cowardice. Therefore I don't think it wise that you even attempt to reach out to the local Vietnam Vets group for the purpose of preaching and advocating your particular brand of Islamic propaganda ! Even ISIL would baulk, because they too can detect that same stink ? Come to think of it, I'm not sure where you'd be welcome STEELEREDUX, with that offensive olfactory vapour hovering about your personage ?

I've been quietly puzzling over your odd attachment to David HICKS too ? It's an emotional bond that you have for him, that's it ! OK, I understand.

Your persistent whimpering about 'Australia' leaving your friend David, locked up at GITMO for five years, was a denial of natural justice you allege ? It was, he should've faced their particular justice system, ASAP, no argument. Why the delay, I don't know, I've no idea of how US jurisprudence operates ? Interestingly, on one hand your David is an Aussie, the next he's a Pom ? Curious fellow I'm sure. As are you STEELEREDUX !

Dear o sung wu,

I get along fine with quite a number of Vietnam Vets, none are like you but perhaps we breed them different here in Victoria. Our local Veterans Affairs bloke (himself a vet) is a sterling chap whom I have a lot of time for. He once confided in me that he switches his phone off on Anzac Day because of the number of members who get freaked out on the occasion, not handling things at all well. Said if he didn't do it then he would be a basket case himself and no help to anyone. He picks up the pieces in the week following. The other day that really afflicts many of his charges is Christmas because so many are estranged from their families.

But ultimately he is an intensely compassionate man with a deep understanding of the human condition. From what you have served up over the past few days I'm afraid you couldn't hold a candle to him in any fashion at all.

Oh, he is now a complete teetotaller, you should try it some times.

To address your charge of cowardliness. I cannot ever envisage myself, nor most of the people I know including the Vets, being prepared to shoot an unarmed man, a prisoner. You sir by your own admission have made it clear you would have little compunction in doing so. It is difficult to contemplate a more cowardly act.

Finally if you feel you are currently incapable of being coherent perhaps we had better leaving this until the morning. I try to be as consistent as I can in my positions and welcome at least some measure of the same from those I debate. I think we might both agree it is not your finest trait at the moment.

Good evening.

Wu, I'm still waiting for your explanation of;

'Truth' unfortunately, is another rectitude that you've clearly managed to evade --> PAUL1405 !

Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 1 October 2014 9:02:29 PM

The post of a coward. All I say is, I don't require your agreement, or your praise. Your silence simply confirms that you sir, are indeed a low life poster on a public forum, who shoots and runs. What is the worth to me of such a person as you, nothing!
I don't much care if you choose to ignore me, I certainly wont ignore you, post what I don't agree with, and I'll say so, if that offends your sensibilities, well that's just too bad.

Just out of interest, if David Hicks was a traitor, what law was he a traitor under?
If he broke a law which law did he break?
If he broke an Australian law, why has he not been charged?

Is Mise, I am glad you asked that question, it is a very good question, one of the best, if not the best question ever asked on this forum. But totally irrelevant. As you well know there is no relationship between crime and justice, none what so ever. By the law of the Jungle, crime is what ever Officer Wu, says is a crime, Officer Wu will in all fairness, hand the guilty party over to Prosecutor Wu, who again being unscrupulously fair will drag the guilty party before Judge Wu, who in all fairness will dispense with the tiresome nonsense of listening to evidence, and will quickly announce the guilty verdict of, "guilty", and just as quickly will pronounce sentence, and being the compassionate person he is, and considering it was only a first offence, Judge Wu will no doubt impose the minimum sentence, "death by firing squad" to witch Executioner Wu will dutifully and expeditiously carry out the sentence! That bloke got off light, you should have seen what they done with the woman in a burqa, and the bloke in the budgie sugglers, before her! Next question?

Paul,
The Questions may be irrelevant but if they make just one person think then they have been useful.

Australian citizens unjustly accused of crimes in foreign countries should hope that it happens in a small insignificant place that has no strategic or trade importance to Australia.

STEELEREDUX & PAUL1405...

I'm stunned that you both believe that I'd shoot and run, given my age and current ambulatory condition ?

PAUL1405...

Do you honestly believe that your actuarial skills of estimating only 1 in 20 being prosecuted for call-up offences was honourable ? Furthermore, by your own admissions, you did state that you'd collaborated with your Dad in some way, to orchestrate a 'student deferment' to help you to avoid your call-up or Nasho registration. Do you still believe that behaviour reflects well on your character ? If you do, than any comments that I could make would be superfluous ?

I will share with you this; Some years ago I took part in the PTSD programme at the Repat. Those who attended were all Vets. A couple were Korean, the baulk Vietnam and Malayan Vets. During discussions, it frequently came out that most blokes were so bitter and angry at those men who were perceived (rightly or wrongly) were Draft Dodgers and simply got away with it, and were never brought to account, essentially because of a change of Govt.

Probably the greatest single fear that most had (including me), was our 'first' sortie outside 'the wire' (either in APC's or otherwise) thus leaving the relative safety of the 'Dat' ? If you were a replacement soldier in a platoon, you s..t yourself when you heard of 'pangi pits' (booby traps), ambushes, and the general inventiveness of 'Cong' and/or the NVA ? Another great fear of mine were poisonous snakes.

Therefor this was often discussed at that PTSD 'thingo', including (in my group) those @%#*&$@ 'Draft Dodging' bastards who were safe at home, probably mucking around with their girlfriends or wives. Whether the latter was 'fact or fiction' it matters not, it's what's in their 20-25 years old mind's that count !

So when somebody openly 'gloats' about how they managed to surreptitiously avoid their call-up and stating quite proudly how they marched in the 'moratoriums' it does give the ordinary fellow some pause, does it not PAUL1405 ?

STEELEREDUX...

You can't keep up eh ? Why am I not surprised ? The story of your life I suspect from your difficulties arising from school to your narcissistic personality that has substantially contributed to your inability to embrace those values that make you a loyal Aussie, and your lifetime dedication to the 'Left' ?

Explain, why are you still lauding the efforts of David HICK'S father in his support of his son ? I have no truck with the behaviour of Mr HICKS Snr. concerning everything he did in securing his son's release. Haven't 'YOU' read what I've said in my previous threads ? Or has the 'Peter Pan' syndrome reared it's ugly once more with you STEELEREDUX ?

Being the charitable fellow that I am, I shall again, try to explain to you in the simplest of terms possible, if I can ?

As a grandfather, I can understand and fully support the philosophy behind the predictable actions associated with Mr HICKS Snr, by manifestly assisting his son, David HICKS in any way he can. Further, David HICKS was denied his natural justice when he was locked-up without due process, by the yanks in GTIMO for a period of five years.

And before you attempt to draw some juxtaposition of my earlier remarks and Mr HICKS'S subsequent incarceration - It should be stressed his capture, contemporaneously amongst the enemy is one matter. Whereas, long after his initial apprehension, there's an expectation that he be brought before the courts for trial, that is another matter altogether ! I understand little, apropos US jurisprudence.

There's one matter that's puzzled me STEELEREDUX ? Some time back a Topic was raised exploring the many complex reasons for the obvious failure of 'Multiculturalism'. Particularly those folk with Islamic backgrounds. As the discussion took hold, out came you STEELEREDUX, 'cape asunder', loudly waxing lyrically about the benefits of Islamic immigration ? What do you think now, you being the spokesperson for Islamic revolution...whoops ! 'evolution' in Australia ? Sorry 'bout that, it's my 'drink' and 'the gout' you know !

Wu, I was obviously being rather flippant saying the old man being some well heeled Liberal Party member, he certainly wasn't, he didn't get me off the hook, but there was truth in that. There were those who did avoid national service by having their parents pay for Uni courses and then claiming a student deferment, it was not uncommon. I did fail to register, and I did that purposely, I disagreed with the war, and I disagreed with conscription as did most of my friends, and by protesting we showed our disapproval. Most of us didn't register and we got letters, but never got prosecuted. Whitlam came to power and that was the end of that. Very few were ever prosecuted for dodging conscription. Saying 1 in 20 is about right, could have even been less.
If as you say <<this was often discussed at that PTSD 'thingo', including (in my group) those @%#*&$@ 'Draft Dodging' bastards who were safe at home, probably mucking around with their girlfriends or wives. Whether the latter was 'fact or fiction' it matters not, it's what's in their 20-25 years old mind's that count! I'm sure you were all pissed off that by fate, the numbers from the unlucky lottery seen you end up in some hell hole in Vietnam. Like over 60% of Australians at the time I didn't want you there, and I certainly didn't see you doing anything for me or Australia by being there. The choice to send people to a horrible bloody war in Vietnam was made by conniving Liberal polititions, blame them for whatever, not me or people like me.

On a pedantic point, as Australia didn't have the draft there were no draft dodgers. Many people avoided the 'lottery system' that was based on birth dates simply by being born at the wrong time.

Any such call up system was flawed from the start by being discriminatory and those that managed to beat the system had my full support; especially after a prominent conscientious objector was tortured by the military.

A couple of lads that I knew well got out because they wore beards and stated that they had made solemn religious vows not to shave; they were quietly dropped, the army didn't want bearded soldiers!

IS MISE...

Who was tortured by the Military - the only 'so called' famous person that I heard of who ended up being sent to 1 MCE was a TV presenter, Simon TOWNEND ? Tortured was he ? How so, and how do you know ?

PAUL1405...

Don't blame you, or people like you ? What are people like you, like PAUL1405 ?

It all happened (for me at least) a fraction over forty six years ago. For you PAUL1405 (with the greatest respect), it's yet to happen ?

Dear o sung wu,

It is now evident to me that you do indeed have a mobility problem.

I had raised the electric scooter as part of the caricature I was building around you in the same tone as the one you have directed at me.

I have no intention of ridiculing your current disability and will henceforth withdraw it from the repertoire. My hope is that if possible you speedily regain your independent movement.

As clarity is something you desire I am happy to furnish it.

You started delivering some big hay makers at paul1405 and others at the start of this thread. I've tapped you on the shoulder and invited you to take a swing. We have thrown a few, none have really landed and where has it gotten us? If has helped you let off some steam then I suppose that is one thing but in the wash up nothing has been resolved nor is it likely to be.

So the message my friend is if you want to start threads with the only intention is to vent your spleen at posters you do not like then we can do this dance ad nauseum. Plus if the truth be known I might just know a few more steps than your good self, not that it is something to be proud of.

Cont..

Cont..

You see mate you are on a hiding to nothing in this discussion. Having said “if Mr Hicks were to be caught in Vietnam, during my tour, attired and armed as he was, as the enemy, the least of his worries would've been, spending too much time locked-up without due process” the implication which you haven't refuted is that he would be killed.

You stand justly accused of being prepared to murder an unarmed prisoner. There is no honour in it, there is no recourse to 'well you haven't served so you wouldn't understand', no defence at all.

Further by implying that most of the Australians who served over there would have been complicit in such an act justly attracts condemnation that you are besmirching and slandering Australian Service personnel.

So you have a choice, you could admit you were being a blowhard and that if a Mr Hicks type was captured in Vietnam he is unlikely to have been murdered by yourself or other Australian troops and we can then continue the discussion, or if that is too big an ask you can scamper off and live to fight another day.

Otherwise you are up the proverbial without a proverbial my friend and you will keep getting a hiding.

Wu, by 1970 the opposition to the war in Vietnam had grown to the point where the majority of the adult population were opposed and the nightly news footage of death and destruction was too much. You as who were people like me? they were students, trade unionists, mums and dads, ordinary Australians from all walks of life and some vets as well. We protested in the streets an unpopular war. There were those that blamed the soldiers for their participation, calling them "baby killers". That was not my personal view, I never blamed the "sappers" as we called them, (hence the term 'sap' being someone easily fooled) they were as much the cruelly treated victims of that war, as anyone was, by a deceitful conservative government.

The song 'I Was Only 19' puts to music the lot of those kids that served in Vietnam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urtiyp-G6jY

Paul 1405, "There were those that blamed the soldiers for their participation, calling them "baby killers". That was not my personal view, I never blamed the "sappers" as we called them"

Yet you quite deliberately chose to repeat the groundless insult here! I have never heard of that insult in Australia.

It is part of that rather obvious and clumsy name-calling and sledging you do, isn't it? Always trying to attach a label to poison the well.

Further, your "sappers" and "saps" as you rudely have them is another of your inventions. No-one ever referred to Australian Diggers as "saps".

You don't have much time for the military, police and 'authority', do you? An oppositional, problematical history insofar as the law is concerned, perhaps?

Hi there PAUL1405...

Before I deal with STEELEREDUX'S last narcissistic little rant, I must, with some obvious reluctance, agree with some of the matters you've raised in your last thread.

I've NEVER asserted the Vietnam war was either 'just or moral'. I believe I mentioned my Mother was opposed to it, in her own quiet way. She never took part in any overt demo., nevertheless she was opposed to it, absolutely. She was even opposed to me joining the Army. It took the combined efforts of both my grandfather's (maternal, WW 1 & paternal, Anglo Boer war, British Army) to coax her into signing the papers, giving me permission to join the Regular ARA, as I was seventeen years at the time.

There were many blokes over there who were vehemently against it also. Mainly when they saw the awful effect AND fear of the civilian population, whenever we entered their small rural villages in platoon strength, searching out evidence of the NVA or Cong ? Not a great feeling to observe people recoiling from you with a mixture of wretched fear together with hatred when you enter the privacy of their little huts, searching for evidence of the enemy. And you know PAUL1405, we were supposed to be the good guys !

You draw my attention to a song 'I was only Nineteen'. I'm not entirely sure if the lyrics contained in that composition was an accurate reflection of many who served over there ? I would however like to draw your attention to the word 'served'. As I've 'bleated out' ad nauseam, in the Military (Army, Navy or RAAF) you must do as you're told, particularly when on 'active service' ! You don't have to agree with it, just do it.

PAUL1405 I'm nearly at my 350 word allowance ? That 'only 19' song did accurately reflect the emotional feelings of some of the younger conscripts, who hitherto led a fairly 'sheltered' youth, and I mean NO disrespect to ANY of them, they were able soldiers and legitimate Veterans, no matter how they may've felt deeply inside.

Beach, I don't know where you were in 1970, a twinkle in your fathers eye perhaps, I really don't care, and I don't care what you say, think or do. The word 'sapper' abbreviated to 'sap' was in common use in both the Australians and British Army's in WWI. It pertained to the men who did a fair amount of the heavy work, specialists engineers, miners etc. In civilian life the abbreviated form sap was often applied to a fellow worker, who although a hard worker, did what the boss said without question or complaint. Later it got into general use as a word for anyone who done what they were told without question. It was never any more than a mild form of insult. To give an example, in the school yard the teach might say "Everybody pick up papers." To which you would make the most pathetic attempt at paper picking up. If you seen another kid madly picking up papers you might say "Beach, what do you think your doing." To which Beach would reply "Picking up papers like sir said to." Then the reply would be "Beach, don't be such a Sap!" I certainly heard it many time being applied to blokes who allowed themselves to be conscripted, You might be told "So and So, has got the call up", the answers could well be "What a sap!" . If you know better, know all, feel free to say so. This coming from a bloke who reckon's half the worlds population are members of some secret society, The Fabians.

The protests against conscription were already going in earnest well before Australia's entry to Vietnam. It was very clearly understood that government had a social contract NOT to introduce conscription.

That social contract was regarded very seriously by all sections of society and supported by the military, who have always regarded conscription as a poor source of willing, trainable recruits of good stamina.

A second, but by no means secondary social contract of government with the Australian people was that the Australian army was ONLY to be deployed in the defence of Australia against an identified, imminent threat. If some here are interested, they should investigate why Australia had two armies in WW2.

That is why Menzies took pains to develop the 'Domino Theory' excuse for involvement in Vietnam. He was determined too that it was to be typecast as a 'police action', anything but a war (the social contract 'impediment'). Some added that government, both sides, parsimony regarding likely repatriation entitlements decreed 'police action' as preferable to 'war'. It was later that government, ALL political parties (and the RSL!), stood arms locked denying Vietnam Veterans recognition for war service, and their families their rightful support.

Menzies endeavored to have his cake and eat it too: the 'Domino Theory' presumed an eventual direct threat to Australia (assisted by the widespread ignorance in government, both sides, to the history of Vietnam, its culture and traditions), but at the same time it was inconvenient to call it a war, because of the deep and long debates that would inevitably result.

It is interesting that none of the political parties presently represented in the federal Parliament want to talk about government's social contracts, particularly in relation to sending troops overseas. Still they coyly refer to 'support' and 'training', but the public understands war to be war. They are quickly reminded of that when the body bags are unloaded.

to be continued..

contd..

The history of Australia's entry to and participation in Vietnam doesn't need re-writing:

- Yes, the NLF was Communist controlled and that was never going to turn out good for the South.

- No, there wasn't a snowflake's chance in Hell of sorting the political corruption and installing democracy. Democracy took hundreds of years to develop in Europe, remember?

- No, Diem was never the best alternative out of all bad alternatives, but would any other have turned out to be the same?

- No, 'government' never even attempted to understand Vietnam, and anyhow once it becomes mired in party politics, if a camel is the end result that would be a far better outcome than usual.

- Yes, the Australian army did win in Vietnam by doing its best and keeping its vows to Australia.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I doubt whether anyone can fully understand what
you and others experienced fighting in Vietnam.
I know from family members and family members of
friends, who fought, - one had a total mental break-down,
another will not discuss his experiences to this
day. Both came back changed men.

We should remember the families, the parents, the wives and the
children - those who live, until they die, with the
pangs of loss. For those left behind, it is often the small
things from which they take comfort - a badge, or button from
a uniform or the last letter received.

Australians should never forget the heavy price soldiers pay.
Sacrifice is an uncommon virtue. And a virtue that we, successive generations, can in a much smaller way return - by remembering the
soldiers who come back and those who fell.

Well at the real risk of receiving a 'hiding' from that ego driven narcissistic pretender, STEELEREDUX I've tentatively emerged from my 'hutchie' to check if the smoke's cleared ?

You really are a joke, with your benign little threats and absurd little 'dares', almost childlike in the extreme ? I reckon I've figured you out ? You're really, really insecure. You have this ego so bloated with righteous indignation, you reckon everyone should tread carefully whenever they're in your metaphoric presence !

Privately though, whenever a word, phrase, or sentence 'stings you', you quietly 'blubber' away to yourself, 'cause the offending individual failed to acknowledge your unique omniscience ! Who in hell do you think you are, you big girl ? Why in hell don't you 'grow up' for everybody's sake, and stop acting like a 'spoilt girls blouse', and cry baby !

Oh before I forget, you 'justly' (your words) accuse me of being 'complicit in conspiracy to murder' ? Well, let me share a little fact with you 'Steelie' baby, it's well we're enjoying a quiet chat, and not bracing the public bar some place, you can make book on that...? Now, don't get all bitter 'n twisted, moreover don't cry, I don't like kids, in the guise of adults blubbering !

In conclusion, I dearly hope...actually I'll re-phrase that 'STEELIE'; I INSIST that you bring to bare all that alleged loquacity and garrulousness you reckon you've got stacked away in abundance, and use it you big fraud 'n fake ! Bring it on ! Time for lunch.

The aftermath:

"HUMAN RIGHTS IN VIETNAM
Vietnam’s human rights record remains weak in all key areas. The government suppresses virtually all forms of political dissent, using a broad array of repressive measures. Freedom of expression, association and public assembly are tightly controlled. Religious activists are harassed, intimidated and imprisoned. State-run drug rehabilitation centers exploit detainees as forced laborers making goods for local markets and export. The criminal justice system lacks independence and operates under the direction of the government and party."

http://www.hrw.org/asia/vietnam

Read further and you will see that it is President Obama who has approved US arms sales to Vietnam. 'The Obama administration announced on Oct. 2 that it was relaxing a decades-old ban on sales of lethal military equipment to Vietnam' (comments section).

'Progressives'(?!), what a misnomer that is for the leftist 'libertarians' who adopt it, such as Barak Obama in this example.

One could imagine though, that if it wasn't a leftist approved Communist' regime but some dictator who abusing the Vietnamese people, the leftist 'Progressives' would be arguing for intervention by the US and others.

All people want is food, shelter and somewhere safe to raise their families, preferably without the State continually horning in to direct them how to live their personal lives.

Hi there FOXY...

Many thanks for your kind remarks and your personal reflections on the subject of Vietnam. I was thinking about it, and it was a bit over forty six years ago I first saw the 'Dat' as it was often referred to by Vets. Actually it was Nui Dat where the ATF (Australian Task Force) were based during the war.

I don't discuss my time over there either, even though I was fortunate enough to escape without any significant harm. While it's true, I'm in receipt of a 100% military disability pension, I was able to work almost up to my mandatory retirement age anyway. I was actually invalided out of the police, about six years prior to my mandatory retirement age. The reasons were (apparently) considered a sequela to my military service ?

The issues that I think really disturbed me most, and many many others, was coming home here to OZ. Many of those who were against the war, unfortunately took it out on the veterans themselves. Blaming them for all the (alleged) atrocities the media sought to report.

An incident that I'll never forget, happened one ANZAC day. After parking the car, my wife and I headed down Market St, between Castlereagh & Elizabeth towards the March. Being all dressed up, we were approached by three youngish looking women. Suddenly, in front of my wife, they all spat on me, all the while shouting and swearing, and calling me a rapist and murderer etc. I was completely astonished, gobsmacked, as it all happened in front of my 'now' very upset wife !

I'll not insult yours and anyone else's intelligence by saying, 'hand on heart' allied troops all wore the proverbial white hats ? Because they didn't - I refer you to the Mei Li massacre and ors. That event was murderous, nothing else. But there was only a very small proportion of soldiers who behaved in such deplorable circumstances. Were children shot, of course they were. The enemy and their sympathisers often tried some very nasty ploys, with the use of kids.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I'm so sorry to hear that you were attacked in such
a vile manner in front of your wife. Vietnam veterans
both in Australia and in the US suffered a great deal
on their return and I believe it's taken them a long
time to be fully recognised and acknowledged even in
war museums and monuments. Hopefully that has now
been rectified, although probably too late for some.

Take care and stay strong.

o sung wu, "Many of those who were against the war, unfortunately took it out on the veterans themselves"

If you obtained that perception it is unfortunate, understandable but regrettable, because it is simply not the case that it was 'most' and they were not ordinary citizens, including students either. Perhaps you could shed a load of bad thoughts if you could come to accept the truth: that it was always that small, nasty, bunch of assorted anarchists, communists and ne'er do wells, trouble makers, that were thoroughly disliked and deterred by the organisers of the student and other legitimate moratorium marches.

o sun wu, you must know from recent events for instance the two feral women who chose as part of their nightly entertainment to abuse an old chap on a bus, and from you long police experience, that the huge majority of the Australian population are ordinary, respectable, even-tempered folk of good nature and good will who would recoil in horror at a veteran being abused and likely take action as well.

What I will say though is that it has become fashionable in some quarters to disrespect anything good in the world and s[bleep]t flows down from the top. We all saw that not so long ago when some brainless, jealous types, all wannabes, rubbished a young SAS soldier and VC winner, a fine upstanding example of manhood, a sterling citizen and a family man who had served his country bravely. On OLO there were the usual small-minded jealous pests who acted as might be expected of them - 'monkey see, monkey do'.

In answer to your OP, our heroes will never become villains and the public can be relied upon to eventually see through the spin of villains. So disregard the tripe that some push as just that, tripe.

Life is like that.

G'day there ONTHEBEACH...

Wow mate, you know more about the historical background of Vietnam then I'd ever know ! I say this with the utter most respect, your knowledge amazes me, it really does.

I reckon you're pretty right when you say that successive governments have ignored the 'Vietnam question'. Which I guess proves it was one of the most unpopular conflicts in modern history. I think I've always known that the former South Vietnam government were patently corrupt, and totally ruthless in every way.

You're spot on with your assertion that Vietnam Vets. were on the nose, both from government and the RSL, an organisation I don't have a great deal of time for ? I was stationed at Burwood, for some years and a few of the shift used to go to the RSL after work for a couple of cold tubes. Some wore WW2 and Korean ribbons, they were full members of the then Sub-Branch, myself I was permitted social membership only ? Yet I wore my own two ribbons on my uniform myself ! That did change later, but at the time it didn't feel all that fair nor honourable. Of course one never wore one's uniform into the club anyway when off-duty, a case of a jumper or coat over it. When working, uniforms were the go, naturally.

Yours and PAUL1405's knowledge of the term 'sap' is interesting ! The term Sapper is a rank in the Corps of Engineer's, as is 'Bombardier' used by the 'Drop Shorts' - Corps of Artillery, who I've great respect for. They've often saved the 'butts' of the Infantry.

A bit of trivia for you ONTHEBEACH, I expect you'd already know this ? Anyway are you're aware that all PTI's used by the Army and the AFP (Fed. Police) are trained and are part of the Royal Australian Corps of Artillery ? I've never understood why ? Logic would suggest, they should form part of the School of Infantry ? As it's the 'grunt' (rifleman) who's doing all the running around, carrying all the heavy Infantry ordnance etc. ?

ONTHEBEACH our respective threads are, like two lonely ships passing in the night ?

Ok, I unreservedly withdraw my poorly conceived and hastily written remarks completely. You're correct, and I'm not, simple as that.

But in my own defence it certainly 'felt' like the entire country was against us. Not many of us really understood the reasons why ? Oh sure we heard, and we were told before embarkation that the war had not be received very well by people back home. Twelve months away is not an eternity, nevertheless it seemed it was, when you're incredible homesick, and your mind can conjure up images of all sorts of things, neither fact nor fiction generally, particularly considering all the conflicting information we were receiving at the Dat ?

You're obviously correct ONTHEBEACH, a comment made without too much rational thought, no excuse I realise, I'll need to do better in future ?

Hi (again) FOXY...

Indeed it was, I think I was more shocked than she was ? I'd been home for in excess of ten years by then, and to have such an incident occur on a city street, on ANZAC day, was truly astounding. Had I been alone, or under different circumstances I may well have pinched all three, for at least affray and assault, but three 'ladies' would prove a bit of a handful, so best walk on ? It didn't add too much to the day unfortunately. When I met up with my mates with whom I usually marched, they were all for trying to track 'em down ! I really didn't think that was too good an idea, particularly after the March and the 'good cheer' had started flowing freely ?

As time goes by I suppose there may well be a moment or two of humour there somewhere ? Half a dozen Vets with an abundance of good cheer on board, trying to track down this trio of 'lovely' ladies ? Emmmm!

o sung wu,

What I was disputing earlier was the claimed PUBLIC usage of sapper and sap. Because it is very hard to imagine those terms being in common use by the Australian public at the time.

Anyway, common usage would have ensured that the terms would have popped up regularly in the newspapers which does not appear to be the case at all.

Maybe Paul1405 has Kiwi or Islander heritage. There are differences across the ditch.

Artillery would require physical fitness, especially years ago. Otherwise I have no idea - but in the peacetime army the game of protecting and acquiring territory (functions mainly) seems to occupy 90% of the time of many.

"IS MISE...

Who was tortured by the Military - the only 'so called' famous person that I heard of who ended up being sent to 1 MCE was a TV presenter, Simon TOWNEND ? Tortured was he ? How so, and how do you know ?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 3 October 2014 8:48:52 PM"

William White was the blokes name and while he was incarcerated at 1MCE he was deprived of sleep by having the light on at all times and was woken by shouting and loud noises etc. to cut a long story short at a Court hearing he called an Australian Army Officer as an expert witness.
This officer was an Instructor from the School at North Head where selected personnel were trained to resist torture by being subjected to torture (with medical supervision).
His evidence was that what White had been subjected to was torture within the Australian Army's definition of torture.

A bit on William White.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_White_(conscientious_objector)

Hi (again) ONTHEBEACH...

I really don't know anything further relating to SAP or SAPPER other than what I described earlier on.

Concerning the particular fitness of those earlier Artillery blokes, it does make sense considering the weight of everything to do with an artillery piece, and the shells they use. The concussion that comes from one when fired is quite extraordinary. It's a wonder why many of them don't end up with severe hearing problems, even though they use hearing protectors.

IS MISE...

I've not heard of this bloke WHITE. The only fellow that I've heard of, who identified himself as a CO was this Simon TOWNSEND that I'd previously referred to. I believe he had a TV show titled 'Wonder World' (I think) Anyway after some well publicised court appearances, he was ultimately sent to 1MCE, where he remained for about a fortnight. Problem was, no Conscience Objector was ever actually sworn-in to the Army, on what authority were they held, I wonder ?

I've been through the place a couple of times, when I was with the civvie coppers and I'd agree, I'd not wish to be sent there. Torture in the traditional sense of the word, I wouldn't know ?

Strict discipline, most definitely, including the shortest of haircuts, immaculate uniforms etc. Not that much more intense, than what you'd expect at 1 RTB at Kapooka. I believe MCE has closed it's doors and errant servicemen do their CB at their own base. Or if their offence serious enough, at the closest gaol.

I'm not sure locking these people up served any real purpose ? Obviously they were set in their ways, as was their mindset. Why punish someone purely because of their attitude ? The Army could do little to modify their beliefs no matter how tough a CSM/RSM might be ? Go overboard with them, could produce suicides. I've seen a couple of lads who were forced to go to boarding schools attempt it, with one very nearly succeeding.

O Sung Wu,

I hope that you never ate in the mess at 1 MCE; the prisoners used to do some very inventive things to the food, nothing that would cause sickness but which did give a lot of satisfaction to the perpetrators.; discrete expectoration and clandestine urine samples contributed to the culinary delights.

I had occasion to visit the place to do weapons inspections, I always arrived after lunch.

I also knew the DAPM Eastern Command socially and when my then enlistment was up he offered me a good position with the Provos but I declined as I'd had enough of the army and wanted a bit of civvy street; besides which my father had told me that if I ever joined the Provos not to bother coming home.

Dear o sung wu,

That was more like it! Still a bit of bark in the old dog yet I'll say. And despite the repetitions it was at least coherent.

I mean the normal generous scoops of hypocrisy were there in abundance, and yet again you completely dodged answering the accusation you have besmirched and defamed the good name of those who served in Vietnam by your insistence they would shoot out of hand an unarmed individual, but on the whole a far better effort.

What was pleasing as well was your latest post to paul1405. The nasty, vicious, cowardly attacks on him were were markedly tempered. If aiming your 'spleen venting' in my direction instead has in some small way contributed to it then we must consider it a good thing.

And this made a bloke chuckle out loud. “You really are a joke, with your benign little threats” then you bluster “it's well we're enjoying a quiet chat, and not bracing the public bar some place, you can make book on that”. Lol.

But I see you have company.

OTB wrote;

Quote;

Paul 1405, "There were those that blamed the soldiers for their participation, calling them "baby killers". That was not my personal view, I never blamed the "sappers" as we called them".

Yet you quite deliberately chose to repeat the groundless insult here! I have never heard of that insult in Australia. It is part of that rather obvious and clumsy name-calling and sledging you do, isn't it? Always trying to attach a label to poison the well.

End quote.

Yet it was you who had earlier introduced the term into this thread with “I'll dispense with the usual pleasantries as they appear to upset PAUL1405, that brave soul who stood alone against the hoards of marching 'baby killers' on their way to embark on the HMAS Melbourne and on to Vung Tau, South Vietnam.”

Go figure.

Anyway old chap, better marks for coherency, improvements in courtesy, but consistency still needing heaps of work. See, skipping the afternoon sherries pays a dividend.

Beach, no Kiwi or Islander in me, unless you count my partner who's Kiwi. Nah, 5 generations Australian on the old mans side and up to 1,000 generations give or take a few on Mum side, something unfortunately she denied until later in life (always said the black people in her family were from of all places Mauritius in the Indian Ocean, according to a cousin who did a family tree some years back that was true. sort of, one was a girl who become an indentured servant (wife) to a farmer in NSW).
Not knowing the origins of the word "sapper", sap for short I though you may have been of European ancestry German most likely, possibly Italian.
Interesting, how colloquialism enter the language a most interesting common term used today from WWI is the word "Furphy" to tell a bit of a lie. Interesting how the name off a water barrel became to mean telling untruths. Maybe you can look that one up in your old newspapers.

Paul,

You are right that 'furphy' originated from the name of a water barrel [water cart] but it does not mean a lie but rather a rumour.

See:http://www.furphys.com.au/the-furphy-water-cart/water-cart-re-barreling.html
and links to the company today.

Although I'd browsed through topic, I wasn't going to post, that is, until I watched the film "Empire of the Sun" on SBS last night, based on the semi-autobiographical book by JG Ballard. If you haven't seen it, the main character is a 12 yr old English boy who end up in a Japanese internment camp in China in WW2. The camp is adjacent to an air-field which the internees helped to build.

Here is an extract from Wikipedida:

"Flying symbolizes Jim's possibility and danger of escape from the prison camp. His growing alienation from his prewar self and society is reflected in his hero-worship of the Japanese aviators based at the airfield adjoining the camp. "I think it's true that the Japanese were pretty brutal with the Chinese, so I don't have any particularly sentimental view of them," Ballard recalled. "But small boys tend to find their heroes where they can. One thing there was no doubt about, and that was that the Japanese were extremely brave. One had very complicated views about patriotism [and] loyalty to one's own nation. Jim is constantly identifying himself, first with the Japanese; then, when the Americans start flying over in their Mustangs and B-29s, he's very drawn to the Americans."

I post this as a comment on the complexities of patriotism, with no particular reference to David Hicks etc.

SteeleRedux, "Yet it was you who had earlier introduced the term into this thread with “I'll dispense with the usual pleasantries.."

You falsely attribute that quote to me. However it is there in B&W to prove it was not mine at all.

Paul1405,

Again, there is NO record of the word 'sap' or 'sapper' ever being applied to Vietnam veterans by the student organisers or others who arranged and spoke at the moratoriums. While some military may have used it themselves and for precise application, there is no evidence of the terms ever being in common use by the public. Why you would ever want to abuse Vietnam Veterans as 'saps' only you know, but it does fit with your usual presentation on OLO.

You may have got it from old Hollywood movies, where low society types referred to the gullible as 'saps'.

Another poster has kindly corrected your misunderstanding of the the usage of Furphy.

Are you sure you are not of Kiwi or Islander extraction?

Cossomby,

I recorded it but won't have a chance to watch till this evening.

Amongst the current spate of old films and new documentaries about war, especially WW1, I was blown away by a recent 4-part documentary also on SBS: '14 Diaries of the Great War'. It seems to have been co-produced by all sides: Germany, France, Canada etc.

As the title indicates, it is based on 14 personal diaries reflecting a variety of experiences, soldiers and civilians, men and women (and children). Countries on both sides are represented, but with the emphasis on the European experience (Australia and Gallipoli get just a brief mention). Events from the diaries are dramatised and intercut with actual footage; we follow the experiences of the diarists through the 4 years in the 4 episodes.

In contrast to the (good) modern dramatisations, I found this extremely hard to watch, the stories and the contemporary footage are so raw. (One memorable story is that of 14 year old Marina Yurlova who became a child soldier in the Cossack cavalry. She survived (just) and died in 1984, age 84.)

Everyone was patriotic to their own side. Everyone fought on in the face of appalling experiences.

As I get older (born during WW2), and see wars come and go, and learn more about past wars, I often wonder: why didn't everyone just say (especially in WW1) 'this is madness, we are stopping right now'? Of course, letting WW1 proceed in madness, resulted in WW2, and the Korean War, and the Vietnam War, and various other wars of decolonisation and has fed into the eternal conflict in the Middle East.

Catch 22 of course. If you went crazy, you could be taken out of battle. But you had to be crazy to keep fighting. But if you recognised this, and wanted to stop, you were sane, and if you were sane you had to keep fighting

G'day there IS MISE...

No, I never had the pleasure of participating in luncheon at 1MCE. Just as well by the sound of it ! Being a fairly small establishment as it was, did it still maintain three separate messes for staff ? From memory (I stand to be corrected) the facility was staffed by all three services, but commanded by the Army ? Fact or fiction I dunno ?

You mixed with some fairly lofty people with the DAPM of Eastern Command in 'Paddo' ? By the by, I'd hate to try and purchase property there now, Paddington being very much the preserve of the well heeled.

I reckon it would take a special sort of bloke to sign on with the Provo's. I had a bit to do with them when I was working, and most seemed OK, still I wouldn't want to get on their wrong side when I was doing my six. I realise you're a Korean Vet. still you may've heard of the infamous 'white mice' in Vietnam ? Anyway, there have been a few Aussie grunts that owe the Oz Provo's for saving their sorry hides from ending up in the clutches of the 'mice'. It was said, if they (the mice) didn't shoot you, you'd just disappear ?! I don't know about the latter, but their weapons saw plenty of use !

So, Vietnam. Why was there such a strong anti-war movement, compared with wars before (and since) and why did returning soldiers bear the brunt?

A couple of reasons:

1. It was the first time ordinary people actually saw war up close, on their TV screens in their living rooms, every day. Soldiers know exactly what war is like, but however appalling the previous wars were, for civilians the awfulness wasn't in your face every day (also, soldiers didn't want to talk about it - it took my father 50 years before he ever spoke about his WW2 experience to his family and yes, I recorded it.) I think that feelings of horror as a result of this exposure underlies the personal attacks at the time on Vietnam vets. [The military learnt from this and as a result we have seen much less of the reality during the Iraqi and Afghanistan wars.]

2. The threat of nuclear war, which hung over the generation born in and immediately after WW2, and was a major factor in the social changes of the 60s. Vietnam was clearly both an on-going post-colonial war (why didn't the French just facilitate a diplomatic disengagement?) and a proxy war between the West and the Soviets (and China).

I think the anti-war movement was an example of what might have happened in WW1 - which might have changed the 20C. Young people said 'stop! enough is enough'. The term Moratorium is relevant: meaning "embargo, ban, prohibition, suspension, postponement, stay, stoppage, halt, freeze, standstill, respite, hiatus, delay, deferment, deferral, adjournment".

PS I personally knew both Vietnam soldiers and conscientious objectors - I make no judgement on either.

Finally (and this will be the last today!) on sappers.

Sappers - soldiers from British Royal Corps of Sappers and Miners, contributed significantly to the development of early Australia especially in surveying, road building and well digging.

Here's a newspaper account for SA, 1839.

"Our new Surveyor-General, Lieut. Frome R.E, arrived last Wednesday by the Recovery, from London. He is accompanied by twelve of the corps of Sappers and Miners, to assist in the survey. Their appearance at first startled some of our good townsfolk, who thought that a party of soldiers had been sent out to assist his Excellency in keeping us in order". (South Australian 25 September 1839)

Among other things, they constructed a series of slabbed wells between Adelaide and Bendigo/Ballarat in the early 1850s for the SA Gold Escort route.

Cossomby,

Pleased that someone else shares an interest in history and the early pioneers. Military engineers had the expertise and the management skills to be used for pioneering work on basic infrastructure.

Recently I was interested to find lines of hardwood logs that were used instead of tent pegs and some artifacts from a camp kitchen. Undisturbed because the new road had taken a different course. Not claimed by fire because the dry hard ground (hence the logs in lieu of pegs) supported very little foliage.

In some places the same camps were used by successive generations of road builders.

oh sung wu,

During the Vietnam war I was with the Dept. of Defence, as a civilian in RAEME employ (as well as the CMF) and was directly involved, on the weapons side, with those going to and returning from Vietnam. I also knew my share of those that didn't come back, including some good friends.
There was a saying among the vets that if one of the White Mice started shouting then stop on the spot because he just might be shouting at you and to ignore him could be fatal.
I was opposed to the Vietnam war on ideological grounds but not averse to using my technical knowledge to help our diggers.

There was; God the Father; God the Son and STEELEREDUX - 'a legend in his own lunch time' ! I'm sure PAUL1405 is ever so grateful for your lame solace. Seems though that solace has not been petitioned ! It's quite apparent that PAUL1405 is made of far sturdier stuff than you ! Perhaps now he'd prefer your silence, rather than receive further unrequested quotas of your unrivalled arrogance and pomposity.

Interestingly, my relationship with other Vet's, whether they be Vietnam or otherwise, could only be described as being robust and tremendously healthy, thank you for asking.

Why on earth have you sought to drag ONTHEBEACH into your peculiar tirade ? Is it a case that he too, has tumbled to your personality imperfections particularly that concerning your vast ego ? Quite seriously 'STEELIE', I've not (ever) encountered an individual anywhere, under any circumstances, that held such a high opinion of themselves as you do of yourself ?

You're typical of a person with a true narcissistic personality. You often exhibit this rather peculiar, grandiose sense of self-importance. And I'd bet you generally overestimate your abilities and worth to other people. I do know you inflate your (perceived) levels of influence, often boasting and threatening others, with your great ability to reduce them to a quivering mass, with a few chosen words. But it's all just an empty myth, you're merely just very very pretentious !

You blithely and quite erroneously assume that other people herein attribute the same value to your utterings, and you're both very disconsolate and plainly riled when that praise and veneration you come to expect and reckon you deserve, is not forthcoming. Sadly STEELIE, you've the classic symptoms of a true 'narcissistic personality', I've often seen in individuals, during my years in the police force.

I'm not going to describe you as being ill. Mindful of how easily a person may simply 'snap', if pushed too far. And so, do real harm to themselves ? I shall leave it at that, for the moment.

IS MISE...

You ignored the 'mice' at your peril for sure ! Your opposition to the Vietnam War, was of course your call and your business. My own mother was also opposed to it, but other then passing comments to her immediate circle of friends, she basically opposed the war quietly.

I've asked you this previously I think ? You were an armourer, essentially with Infantry weapons, I seem to recall ? A question if I may ? I did my recruits with the old but totally reliable, SMLE .303, and soon after during Corps Tng., the L1A1 SLR 7.62 and not long after that, (at Canungra) the M16 5.56 cal. What is, in your experience and opinion, do you consider was the best, in terms of reliability, and being 'grunt proof', between the L1A1 and the M16 ? Of course it's the Styr in now.

As you may imagine the number of discussions we've had on individual preferences was truly amazing. Weight was a big factor because every member of the section, had to carry his 200rds belted links for the M60, while the No. 2 carried his 200 plus spare barrel, for the inevitable 'cook offs'. While the gunner, his about (empty) 25 lbs gun of course. Weight was always a problem.

Beach, thanks for highlighting my error in referring to a "Furphy" as a bit of a lie, with Is Mise referring to it as a rumour. I'll take the Aussie Slang Dictionary definition;

Furphy : false or unreliable rumour. So a rumour that is a lie is a "furphy".

I am truly astounded by the "knowledge" you have on every possible subject on the planet, including this one. I understand your astounding "knowledge" is due to you meticulous hording of back copies of old newspapers, amazing. I can only assume your years of holding on to all those dusty old copies of 'The Daily Mirror' has been rewarding, and I'm not just just referring to the occasional ogling of the famous page 3 girls either. Along with your collection of old Hollywood movies, I'll have to agree, Rudolph Valentino never did uttered the word "sapper" on the silver screen, and as far as I can tell Charlie Chaplin didn't either, interesting.

You continually want to know if I'm a Kiwi or an Islander, I didn't tell the whole truth on that. When I was a kid I had an uncle who lived on Scotland Island in the Hawkesbury River, and yep we used to go there for some Xmas Hols, so does that qualify me as an Islander? Kiwi, I'm defiantly not. I probably offended you by asking if you were German or Italian, I forgot your Uncle Adolf was Austrian, sorry about that.

cont

cont

While I'm making these confessions, I must admit Vietnam was not the first time I dodged the draft. When I was about 14 I refused to "volunteer" to join the School Cadets, one of only two kids in my year to do so, the other kid was half blind and got off on medical grounds. Hummm, refusing to "volunteer" for cadets in a Catholic boys school in the 1960's was tantamount to treason! it got you labeled as a nancy-boy, or worse a budding Communists, it also got you plenty of stick (the cane) which Brother dished out to me in liberal quantities, I got labeled both by Brother Cadet Master, who ironically years later was proved to be a pedophile. That is another John dory in itself.

I must also confess as a 17 year old I had the hots for this bird from Sydney Uni, who was in the Spartecas League, they were Trotskyists, and the only people those Trots hated more than capitalists were those old fart Stalinists of the CPA, publishers of 'The Tribune'. My attraction for this chick was more sexual than philosophical at the time, a lot more.

o sung wu,

I'd plump for the L1A1 as being the most 'grunt' proof and if I were fighting from a fixed position I'd prefer it (if I couldn't have a Lee-Enfield .303), however if I was moving then the M16, purely as a matter of weight.
The M16 was susceptible to ammo problems, in fact a lot of Americans died because of unsuitable ammunition and there was a Congressional Inquiry that stopped just short of criminal negligence charges over the worst incidents.
In Australian service an interesting problem was "skin cancer" where the upper and lower body parts would corrode severely under the tough outer skin of the aluminium castings; this was, at the time, put down to the higher meat component of the Australian diet causing more corrosive perspiration that easily penetrated the skin and then ate quickly through the relatively soft inner metal.
The M60 became a reliable weapon but in the years that I was involved with it, just about every part was modified in some way.
The early bipods were prone to just fall off.

oh sung wu,

John Olsen, the artist, was the first (or the first prominent person) to buy into Paddington after the war and he was considered mad for paying 600 quid for what had been a Town House.
As I remember the frontage was about 25 feet and the downstairs rooms were the full width of the house, bedrooms, bath etc were upstairs.

There was a carriage house at the back of the garden opening onto a lane.
He converted the servants quarters and the hay loft into a fine studio.

Then 'back to Paddo' started in earnest!

Thank you IS MISE...

For that appraisal, very interesting indeed. Well I'll be damned, I've never heard of a skin conditions and perspiration reacting negatively with the weapon, you live and learn I reckon. I like the old SLR myself, and as you say, a little on the heavy side for sure, but the 7.62 round most definitely made it's presence felt though.

I'd hate to be outside, without knowing the trusty old M60 was close by. And as you say faulty Bipods abounded. Thereafter, the Bipod was attached to the barrel assy., which made the damn 'cook off's' much easier to swap over barrels.

Gee all that was 46 years ago, you wouldn't believe how quickly time has flown eh ? Were you with 3RAR in Korea IS MISE ? They served with great distinction from what I've heard.

Sounds like John Olsen made for himself a very wise investment ! Imagine if you owned half an acre of Victoria Barracks, even a bit of the old Moore Park Army Depot, at the rear of the SCG, you'd be a squillionair by now ! Thanks for the info IS MISE, greatly appreciated.

Paul1405,

Thanks for the explanation. Many of my friends, both sexes, who went through Catholic schooling have had to deal with issues from that experience.

Enjoy the long weekend.

Gee the old Tribune Newspaper ! I've not heard of it for 'yonks' ! Once upon the time if you were seen with a copy of 'The Tribune' hanging out of your back pocket, you'd hit the top ten of the ASIO Hit Parade.

Speaking of Hero's, heroines more specifically ? Does anybody remembers a 'lady' with interesting proclivities, by the name of Bea MILES ? When I was in uniform I'd always dread coping a job dealing with Bea ? I was stationed at Burwood, but sent to Strathfield cop shop (relief), which was on the corner of Concord & Parramatta Roads, Concord.

As it happened dear ol' Bea, decided to station herself on the corner there this day, a very busy intersection controlled by lights. As was her usual practice, she'd promptly jump into any car she fancied, that stopped at the lights, and demand to be taken wherever she wished to go ? Unaware of who she was, most drivers readily acquiesced to her 'very loud' demands, and the hapless driver who felt as if he were a hostage, would yield to her extraordinary demands ! Often police would intercede which would only serve to cause enormous distraction. No copper liked dealing with Bea, including myself she'd often accuse you of every offence in the book, and she was most plausible and highly competent in court.

In fact Bea was a very intelligent women, who'd received a thoroughly good university education. Yet somehow, something must have 'snapped' within her, and she became almost feral in her behaviour towards others. She positively loathed police, why so, nobody could ever work it out, because they always treated her very well indeed ?

Alas, another one of Sydney's truly colourful identities lost to time unfortunately ? Though extremely difficult to handle and control her, Bea meant no real harm to anybody really. Wherever Bea MILES is now, I truly hope she's contented and happy. I fear she's probably passed, as she would be at least 20 years my senior, and I'm 75.

Gee Beach, I feel terribly sorry for your friends. Obviously they didn't attend my catholic school where my total experience was wholesome and uplifting, truly a well rounded education, and I didn't have to horde a single copy of any old newspaper to learn history, a novel idea. Was that a thing'y they done at your school? Was it some kind of "Progressive" school with radical ideas,like saving your old newspapers? Could have your teachers been Fabians? Are you all receiving counselling together? I just enjoyed Souths winning the RL grand final. Goodnight.

Dear o sung wu,

paul1405 may indeed be made of sterner stuff than I.

What I am certain of my friend that the evidence abounds on this thread that he is made of far sterner stuff than yourself.

By the third post on this thread of yours you had labelled him a coward, a pretender, and a useless human being.

I set out to quite make the case that you were a coward for claiming to be prepared to murder an unarmed prisoner, a pretender for being a blowhard, and a useless old soak.

The truth is neither of you really deserve those labels but look at the way you have reacted compared to paul1405. You have been apoplectic, and the venom you have been spewing at me shows just how thin skinned and precious you really are. These are traits of a bully. Compare that to paul1405's response and it is obvious who is made of the elusive 'sterner stuff', and every increasingly shrill post in my direction makes that point rather forcefully.

Just for the record I did not address anything to OTB rather I quoted him when noting you had used the term 'baby killers' first on this thread and thus, according to OTB you “quite deliberately chose to repeat the groundless insult here” and that he “had never heard of that insult in Australia”. According to him “It is part of that rather obvious and clumsy name-calling and sledging you do, isn't it? Always trying to attach a label to poison the well.” I do get the sense he has you rather well sussed my friend.

Finally I am not doing this because I think paul1405 needs any help from me, he is perfectly capable of looking after himself, I'm doing it because I don't like bullying behaviour, never have and never will. If you don't like what is coming your way then how do you think others feel when you dish it out? Perhaps just stick to the war stories from here on in.

Wu, Bea Miles passed on some 40 years ago. I vaguely recall her being seen around Hyde Park. I can only relate what I was told by the old man who would be 102 if alive today. Bea was at one time a very wealthy woman, running a male gang in East Sydney during the 1930's, running prosecution, two-up schools and sly grog shops etc. Her war with another crimnal women Tilly Devine was legendary, Bea died a penniless eccentric. Those strange eccentrics which frequented the streets of inner Sydney have long gone. Do you recall the strange character with the cart, in Sydney he used to sharpen knives for butchers etc back in the 1960's. Had a very odd call as he pushed his barrow along the streets. The mystery bloke who for years chalked the word "ETERNITY" in a very nice hand on the footpaths of Sydney for years and years, they immortalized him some time back with the word "ETERNITY" in his handwriting in lights on the Harbour Bridge one New Years Eve.
My old man although rusted on Labor. always read the 'Tribune' as did many self respecting workers did. Had it in the back pocket.

Paul,

I used to read the Tribune, my father got it and he was mates with some of the top Commos, although politically opposed to them.
He was good friends with Lance Sharkey but he was also a friend of Cardinal Gilroy and was very involved in Catholic Action over the years.

One of my favorite tricks when I worked for the Dept. of Defence was to carry a folded copy of "The Connaught Tribune" ( a West of Ireland news paper) folded so that 'Tribune' was to the fore, people frequently bit, whereupon I'd unfold the paper; red faces!

PAUL1405...

Indeed you would've seen old Bea lurking around Hyde Park, as well as loitering near any of the Taxi ranks she choose. She terrified the poor ol' cabbies ! It may well be true, she may've been independently wealthy, though you'd never know by looking at her.

As far as her running with the notorious Tilly DEVINE and ors., perhaps you're confusing her with Tilly's fierce old sparring partner, Kate or Katie LEIGH ? I should add this was all before my time, though I've had several less than cordial run-ins with dear old Bea. Not a good look, a young uniformed copper trying to restrain an old, apparently destitute, lady !

To my knowledge she was never actually listed by the former Consorting Squad, as a 'POI' ? Heavens above, Bea would consider herself far too chic' to ever consort with the lowly criminal classes ! Hard enough for her to tolerate the dullard coppers ?

She knew her Shakespeare very well too, and if the stories were true, she'd recite some of it for a few bob ! When I had dealings with her, she was quite an old lady by then, therefore she'd probably mellowed somewhat, fortunately for me. She was quite averse to jumping into the tub also ? However that particularly task fell to policewomen, thankfully. An interesting lady. Sydney's loss, heaven's gain, I believe !

I 'think' I recall the guy that sharpened knives, often down near Macquarie Place ? Indeed that beautifully styled, cursive writing in yellow crayon, the word 'Eternity' I remember very well. Didn't one of the Newspapers actually identify the man ? A lot of blokes who did the city patrols reckon they'd seen him ? I'm not so sure myself, still ?

Another of the city's legends/mystery's, have you ever seen the old wooden Baton placed in the open jaws of the Lion, situated above the entrance to the old George Street North police station ? I've heard so many accounts of how it got there, and why it was so placed ? - who'd really know ?

o sung wu,

In and out fast, got work to do, spit already on. :)

Bea died back in December 1973 having spent her remaining days in that Catholic aged care home for poverty stricken - Little Children of the ...
A uni researcher (Syd Uni?) penned her history. Google may help.

Chalked 'Eternity', see here (grave),
'Eternity'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Stace

Enjoy the long weekend.

Oh dear dear, 'STEELIE'...

I fear I've again offended your delicate sensibilities, when my observations were meant, as complimentary ! In the hope that I can somehow penetrate that massive EGO of yours - I'd like you to look at it this another way perhaps ? You've obviously lead a unremarkable life, a life devoid of anything that amounts to some form of personal, self-actualization or fulfilment. I mean something based in 'fact' not in your own imagination ? Possibly you've worked a nine to five existence, back home, evening supper, a bit of TV, then 'beddie byes'. And in the morning, your banal, circuitous existence starts up once more.

Another boring day, with just your own tediously dull company. Together with an abnormally large HUBRIS that continually needs succour. Lest others begin to see the substantial flaws that have left you exposed and vulnerable - you know, 'the Emperor has no clothes'.

I do understand, you're thoroughly bored, with nothing really happening that can even remotely begin to feed that swollen, and distended EGO of yours ? Again, I understand !

I do believe I've now grasped the true reasons why you feel this curious need to defend David HICKS ? It's both an admiration, a yearning if you like, that if only you could've engaged in even just a small part of David HICKS'S previous lifestyle ? A life of giving both military, and philosophical support to an outlawed Islamic fundamentalist group, Al Qaeda. You with me so far STEELIE ?

Then there's the emotional component, the closeness, the intimacy you'd like to share with David HICKS. Not only for his own legendary feats when in company with terrorists, but because he's the kind of individual with whom you're so emotionally attached yourself ? I do understand.

I gather you've made certain covert supplications to be permitted entry into the august company of either David HICKS or another of his acolytes, but so far, failed yet again to gain admittance ? I'm sure you'll make it when you become a little bigger and more mature ?

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Brilliant, many thanks for that ! Poor old Bea MILES, with all her unusual ways, her dislike and loathing of conventional society, and her continuing derision of police and the law generally, there were many more far worse than, Ms. Bea MILES. RIP.

Many thanks for the Link concerning the 'Eternity' bloke, I shall enlighten myself by shortly reading it !

Enjoy your Barbie, and have a marvellous Long Weekend ONTHEBEACH, thanks mate.

Oh dear Woosie,

“somehow penetrate”, “exposed and vulnerable”, “massive”, “abnormally large”, “swollen and distended”, “become a little bigger”?

Mate, I have repeatedly warned you about mixing your Viagra with the afternoon sherries. Freud would have a field day.

Let's try not to spook the horses shall we? Perhaps a cold spoon might help.

Lol.

STEELEREDUX...

Come now, you can manage a little better than that surely ? Or have you finally come to realise this illustrious Forum and OLO are Sites that provide people of like minds, a setting upon which they may engage in those activities that hitherto have been consigned to the past ? Metaphorically speaking - those 18th century diversions and leisurely pursuits that many of those fine gentleman, doubtlessly followed - that which incorporate the 'French Epee'.

A delicate thrust here; a nimble parry there; all the time the two opponents are secure in the knowledge that a slim, albeit high quality torso protector, will prevent any lasting injury to the person, save from suffering some minor loss of face or indignity, when one's opponent penetrates the other's impeccable 'guard' ?

Is it not the same feature, of this Forum, signified by the dexterity of one with the French Epee ? That Graham's OLO and the Forum have provided us all with an abundance of enjoyment, a source of knowledge, and a vehicle in which folk may produce their own brief dissertational work, on any topic of their choosing ?

Moreover STEELEREDUX, I consider my own personal objectives and reason(s) for engaging in either OLO or 'the Forum' purely, as just a bit of fun, nothing more. Life's far too short to take any of this stuff seriously, or personally. To systematically and methodically take any 'individual down', is entirely absurd, and completely invalidates the most critical reason for anyone taking part at all ?

Essentially, it's to inject a little more humour into other people's existence, as well as my own, by the use of an entirely different medium altogether. Furthermore, to ensure the more pleasurably and fun parts of being a regular correspondent, are met and preserved, while being fortunate enough to be amongst the already eminent company who've also chosen to participate herein ! These are the people who unselfishly 'value add' with their respective knowledge and considered opinions. From a broad, cross section of of this great facility of ours (actually Graham's ?) 'the Forum' !

o sung wu,
I well remember many of the city characters good and bad but one derelict I used to look out for on GD patrols was a bloke who used the Com Bank doorways near Wynyard station to sleep at night.
I took him to hospital a couple of times after being beaten up by louts and got to know him as well as one could.
During the war he was a merchant seaman on oil tankers in the North Atlantic where he managed to get torpedoes on four occasions.
Each time he was rescued from the ocean and taken to New York where he recovered and go re-posted to the next tanker.
On the fourth sinking he decided he had had enough and jumped ship in New York where he stayed for years after the war.
He married and raised a family living in Long Island and running a successful vets bar in the city.
His wife took up with another man, reported him to the Immigration authorities and had him deported back to Australia.
She got everything he had built and saved and he finished up on the streets of Sydney completely disillusioned and broken.
His story gave me respect for the street dwellers of the day because there was always a story behind their regression.
You may remember the Tic-a-tec fraud case. I think his name was Miller.
He got eight years and now today he is the biggest thing in celebrity publicity. Villains to hero's.
I remember Bruce Galea being locked up for contempt by refusing to give evidence against his family.
He went from villain to hero very quickly.

Wu, your right there it, was Kate Leight at war with Tilly Devine. Seems the law in the 1930's prevented a man from running a brothel, but the law didn't extend to a woman doing the same thing. Bea Miles, would jump in the back of a cab and refuse to get out. I'm sure the old man said she had money, but most likely didn't.
With Souths winning I can just recall the very last "rabbitoh" in Sydney. A Mr Penfold, with his horse and cart. The cart was covered and low down so he could step in and out from the back about 6 inches off the road. He would yell out "Rabbitsssss.. only a shilling", skin and gut them in front of you, wrap them in newspaper. The horse knew where to go and when to stop. I recall, being only about 5, mum sending me with two shillings to get a pair of rabbits. Don't think the whole operation would pass the "health check" today, no refrigeration in the cart and a few flys as well.

Take, the Nuremberg Trials and the highest ranking Nazi caught Hermann Goering, a shocking war criminal if ever there was one. On capture the Allies could have simply taken Goering out and delivered summery execution. He was obviously guilty of war crimes, and not too many people would have come to Goering's defense. I'm sure if the Nazi's had won the war, allied leaders like Churchill, would have been hung with piano wire with nothing more than a show trial at best.
To our credit we didn't act that way, we believed in the rule of law, no matter what, and even a person as evil as Goering was entitled to a fair trial, which he received. Hicks in no way can be compared to Goering, but no matter what he may or may not have done Hicks too was entitled to fairness from us civilized people, somthing he did not receive!
Steele, just consider me the "armadillo" on this forum. I have spent years campaigning with Green candidates on the streets of inner Sydney and there are plenty out there who don't agree with us, I wonder why, and they don't mind telling you to your face in no uncertain terms. So there is nothing that anyone, like Beach, could ever post here that would insult me. I give as good as I get, and I try to be inventive, like reference to The Daily Mirror and Uncle Adolf from Austria. One thing about "lefties" I find, many have the ability to laugh at themselves, something I never ever come across with the right wing mob, they just take themselves so serious.
Take one of the hardest fighters for the left I ever come across Laurie Carmichael. Laurie was passionate when it came to communism and the workers, but in a quite moment Laurie could crack a joke about it all with the best of them.

Paul,

I remember the rabbit man as well, and the clothes-prop man and, of course, the milkman who called daily as did the baker.
They along with the garbage men all used horses and carts and it was my job to watch for the horses to drop some manure and to race out with bucket and scoop and claim the prize for the garden.
The "Night Soil Collectors" aka "Dunny Can Man" used a "48 door Sedan", with petrol motor, even back then.

This was in the Sydney suburb of Auburn, where like everywhere else the only things left to mark the progress of the only one left, the garbage truck, is diesel fumes and the occasional oil spot.

G'day there CHRISGAFF1000...

Good to see you mate ! Wow, a powerful story from seemingly a 'no account' ol' street dweller ! The 'no account' is so very fallacious eh ? 'There but for the grace of God go I' ? What an extraordinary story from a person you'd never imagine would even have one ? There's no doubt, you can never make snap decisions about people, no matter how innocuous and broken they may seem ? Makes one think eh ?

The 'gentleman' of whom you refer Chris, is none other than that inimitable rogue, Harry M. MILLER ! Impresario, fight promoter, host and Show Biz entrepreneur, as well as part-time (but likable) scoundrel with the ladies ? That said, he was (apparently) a very shrewd businessman. From the little I know, he did his boob relatively easy, befriending all manner of miscreants and ne'er do wells in the process of his stay ? I did have a brief conversation with him post his release, and he is/was what I'd call 'charming', and very easy to speak with, emmmm ?

While it's true he did nod his head to a number of serious fraud charges, he does claim the irregularities associated with 'Tic a Tec' were more of an 'oversight' rather than straight up fraud ? Where the truth lies, who knows, I was neither on the team, nor did I ever speak with the case officer ? Life's full of contradictions !

Thanks for 'stopping by' Chris, take it easy.

Hi PAUL1405...

Now you've done it ! They reckon regression is not good for the soul when we seek to compare one era with another ? Myself, I'm not so sure ?

IS MISE, reminding us of those old bygone institutions, such as the Rabbit Man, Clothes props, the Milkman, and Baker. Another favourite of mine was the Ice Man with his obedient horse and cart, allowing us kids to retrieve the broken bits of ice from the rear of his wagon. And occasionally he'd allow us to ride atop of the cart, as the old horse quietly 'clip clopping' along the street, without any need of it's owner to guide it's passage. Luckily there was no OH&S around in those days, fortunately for us kids.

With these large metal tongs, he'd carry in each hand, these huge blocks of ice into our kitchen, and adroitly, deposit them into the top of our 'Silent Knight' brand, Icebox. Generally in summer, the blocks would only prevail for around 48-60 hours, before another Block or two was required. But despite the rudimentary technology, it worked ! Keeping our perishables from spoiling !

The milkman never left bottles or cartons of milk either, when he called at our place, in the Sydney suburb of Concord. Rather he'd fill, your own (metal) milk container, from his own much larger milk cans, with the requisite quantities, according to the note specified and money you'd leave for him the previous night. As you quite rightly pointed out PAUL1405, there was no whinging about health considerations either.

There's no doubt we've advanced technologically in leaps and bounds. But (in my opinion), we've retrogressed quite badly in some other quite important areas, particularly in terms of our Society, and the way we treat each other ?

Hi (again) PAUL1405...

I would agree, you do give as good as you get. It is for that reason I believe you're owed an honest answer as to what I believe would have happened to David HICKS had he been caught by members of an Oz section or platoon in Vietnam, in very similar circumstances that ensued, when he was first captured by the American troops.

The proviso being, as he was widely depicted in photographs - was found armed with either a RPG Tube, or AK47. And, he was in company with, and similarly attired to, the Taliban (the enemy), and he was in possession of munitions.

PAUL1405, I can't (hand on heart) honestly say to you, if those circumstances described above, actually prevailed, he'd come very, very, close to being shot ! Put it this way, I'd not wish to trade places with him. When Oz soldiers, are 'outside the wire' on patrol, there's always an expectation of a 'contact'. Therefore, each member is in a state of preparedness, to provide an 'immediate' response to either a contact or worse, an ambush !

I must categorically state herein, it would have nothing to do with him being David HICKS, an Australian citizen, it would be a simple case of seeing, an armed individual, in company with a recognisable enemy, in a hostile area, nothing more.

Let us assume for a moment, if he and his cohorts, immediately downed their weapons, and raised their hands without any resistance whatsoever, would he or his cohorts be shot...clearly no. It would be a serious war crime ! But because Oz soldiers were on active service, on a search and destroy patrol, any resistance would be met with an immediate response. After all, it was a war. My final comment; had HICKS been caught in Vietnam, he'd come perilously close of being shot for the reasons I've already stated.

PAUL1405, I'm sure everyone would now agree, this topic has run it's course, well and truly. I believe I owed you some clarification. I can only hope it is satisfactory to you ?

Dear o sung wu,

Let me have crack at this humour thing.

You wrote to paul1405;

“I believe I owed you some clarification. I can only hope it is satisfactory to you ?”

No mate, what he and May May are owed is an apology. You, without justification, labelled them cowards, pretenders and sickening, useless human beings.

How about manning up and delivering it instead of pissing in their pockets.

And what on earth is this?

“I must categorically state herein, it would have nothing to do with him being David HICKS, an Australian citizen, it would be a simple case of seeing, an armed individual, in company with a recognisable enemy, in a hostile area, nothing more.”

Of course, no one here would say any different.

But that is not what you put to us was it. Instead you clearly stated to me;

“Concerning your titular brother one David HICKS, tiresome as it is, to continually recapitulate his treacherous 'deeds' - if the circumstances of his capture were to occur in South Vietnam in my time, his worry of an indefinite detention without the benefit of 'due process' would indeed be moot.”

Leaving aside the fact that he was captured unarmed in the back of a truck by the Northern Alliance 'capture' is not cornered, or still a threat, it is disarmed and under the control of those who secured the capture.

So surely out of your own mouth you have now condemned yourself;

“Let us assume for a moment, if he and his cohorts, immediately downed their weapons, and raised their hands without any resistance whatsoever, would he or his cohorts be shot...clearly no. It would be a serious war crime !”

You tried to make the case that Australian troops would be prepared to commit serious war crimes and I challenged you on it.

So rather than attempting to weasel your way out of your earlier comments how about just fessing up that you let a bit of bravado force you into some misspeak then all of us can move on.

Wu, while I'm telling stories. you might find this one funny or odd. My Grand Uncle Jim, actually he was my Grandmothers brother-in-law fought at Gallipoli in 1915, as far as I know he didn't land on 25th April but some time after. Seems uncle took a shrapnel wound to the private parts and then was shipped off to Egypt for medical attention (uncle and aunt never had children) then later he was sent to the western front.

About 1960 I remember sitting in the kitchen at home at the table with only me and uncle, a very uncomfortable moment. He wasn't a very pleasant chap always a snarly and grumpy old bloke. Well I plucked up the courage to ask a question of uncle, "Uncle, what did you do at Gallipoli?" Well, the old bloke looked left, then right to make sure no adults were in ear shot, then he came across the table at me, until his face was about 6" from my fact ,and with a gruff old voice said "Son..I KEPT ME F@#%EN HEAD DOWN!" Even then I though to myself uncle you should have kept something else down as well. I believe his war wounds may have saved uncles life, because when he went to France he was stationed with the messengers and didn't have to really fight in the trenches. he told some bad stories about that war. PS Had only good words for the Turks, I recall him saying about Gallipoli "The Turk was only defending his bloody home land."

o sung wu,

In my haste I may not have posted a working link for you on Arthur Stace. See here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Stace

Bea Miles, I previously forgot the facility where she died. However, such Christian kindness should not go unmentioned. See here,

"By 1964, the ill health that had dogged her all her life forced her to retreat to the Little Sisters of the Poor in Randwick, where she died from cancer on December 3, 1973"

- The newspaper article and photo might bring back memories,
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/eccentric-city-bea-miles-20120112-1pxba.html

Hi STEELEREDUX...

You're still 'smarting' over our brief discussions aren't you ! It's this dreadful EGO thing of yours that keeps getting in the way hasn't it. Someone gave our 'precious' STEELIE a clip around the ears, and golly, he's not going to get away with it eh, that's the stuff, give as good as you get !

The problem is, that awful three letter word...your wounded EGO...STEELIE'S wounded little EGO ! The bane of your existence. I'm sorry for you, I really am. Luckily, I know all my many flaws, my deficiencies, weaknesses, and my innumerable failings. There's a certain power that unique knowledge can bring. You know your limitations. Your intellectual boundaries. Therefore, you ensure you don't overstep yourself, and become so boggled with your EGO and......well you already know those consequences eh STEELIE ?

It would be nigh impossible to have any sort or conversation, discussion or argument with you, about anything involving Service life, because you'd not understand, you couldn't relate to anything you're told, nor could you contribute anything ? Surely you must know something about the Military 'entity', would have too ? But you don't do you, you haven't got the foggiest clue, zip, squat nothing !

Even the most banal, narrow minded person could think of something to contribute ? Generally yes they probably could....? Alas, not STEELIE with his ineradicable narcissistic tendencies, always getting in the way, of true friendship, emotional companionship, even normal interactions...that damn EGO is your problem 'my man'. If I were an individual of ill will, I might be provoked to say something along the lines...historically you'd make a superb 'Key Note' Topic, for the entire 'Royal Australian & New Zealand College of Psychiatry' for their annual conference ! Embracing that severe social impediment, 'HUBRIS' - 'It's effects Socially and in the Work Place' !

Think about it, you could turn out to be quite a novelty, though perceived as a social pariah ? That's the trouble, when one permits his EGO to manifestly confuse his thinking and his writing, making it awfully hard to be taken seriously.

PAUL1405...

Son, I kept my $#@*% down ! Sounds familiar. My maternal grandfather didn't serve at Gallipoli, he served on the 'western front', 30th Bn. AIF. Like most and similar to your grand uncle, many of those who served in WW1, chose not to speak of the war, including my beloved grandfather.

From my own limited understanding, with artillery and constant machine gun fire, it was a case of 'keep your 'F...n' head down alright'. I couldn't imagine the absolute terror a man would have, when ordered to 'go over the top' and try to take a German trench ? Personally, I'd find that experience very hard indeed, knowing that the moment your were fully exposed at the top of your trench, you'd have to confront a literal storm of enemy machine gun fire, raining thousands of rounds of bullets at you. You'd be lucky to even get off a shot, let alone live.

Any attempt to compare Vietnam with the Western Front of WW1, would be preposterous and downright rude.

Thanks PAUL1405.

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Many thanks for those links concerning the lives of two of Sydney's 'vital' eccentric people. Ms Bea MILES and Arthur STACY Esq.
I suppose some may consider them both somewhat of a nuisance even petty criminals, because off their rather odd social mores didn't quite fit into what some may think appropriate ?

At least they possessed a real personality, and a keen sense of justice and reality far ahead of the human garbage and the obscene detritus we have to contend with on the streets these days ? From memory, I 'assisted' Bea MILES to my Station twice, earlier on in my career. Sure she had some social issues, and in need of a good hot bath, but crazy or not, she had a mind as sharp as a tack, and could tie you in knots should she choose to do so ? I'd rather ten Bea MILES over some of the slugs and maggots I've had occasion to deal with.

She passed in 1973. I just hope wherever she is now, there's an abundance of taxi's for her own continued amusement, and many others who might still enjoy her reciting her beloved Shakespeare. Go quietly Bea MILES.

Thanks a lot there, ONTHEBEACH !

Dear o sung wu,

;)

Dear paul1405,

The good old armadillo defence. My father use to employ it whenever I was silly enough to talk him into a round or two. One flex of his shoulders and his head would literally disappear. Mine always seemed to be an easy enough target, despite me being 8 inches taller than him. Then again he was the RAN champion boxer for his division. His bravado had him take on a bloke from the Army two weight classes up. According to him the next three days were a bit of a blank.

As I stated earlier you certainly don't need any help from me, this is more about o sung wu's growing fondness for starting threads all sweetness and light then sticking the boot in. It needed to be shown for what it is.

That being said I am certainly happy that he has returned to a measure of civility in his discourse with you. One gets the sense he regrets what he directed at you earlier and is attempting to make amends. Being the stubborn old coot he is (and I put myself in that category) there is no way you are going to get an apology, especially not in front of me, so you will have to accept it in kind.

I was actually quite prepared to bow out and leave well enough alone after his post on Monday, 6 October 2014 9:11:14 PM which I thought was at least a little conciliatory, but when he later attempted to rewrite history with 'his hand on his heart' I felt the record needed correcting.

Ah well, its a diversion from a busy week.

Thanks Steele, and never expect any apology from anyone in life, in that way you can't be disappointed, and if you get one, well, that's an unexpected bonus. Enough said on that. My upbringing developed a strong pacifists attitude in me something I'll never loose.

Wu, something interesting about WWI, which I consider the most horrendous war from a soldiers perspective ever, with things like 30,000 British killed in a day (maybe the lucky ones) at the Battle of The Somme etc. horrendous.The thing that is interesting is the attitude towards the enemy, I think strangely how our people, and the enemy blokes, didn't have that hatred for each other. You would think someone who is killing your mates by the score, would be absolutely hated by you, but seems not so.
A very interesting "fact" from WWI, and no one can say this is true, is Adolf Hitler was "caught" by a British solider, who could have easily shot him stone cold dead (how things would have been different if he had) by rather chose to let him go free, hummm!
The story about the "football match" between the British and the Germans staged in no mans land in about 1917, not popular with the High Command, hummm! I think the British won the war (hard to tell from a returned soldiers point of view) but the Germans won the football match.

I've just come back to this discussion and
I've been reading all the various posts.
Goodness me - emotions have run high.
I guess this just goes to show that we can all
react when certain buttons are pushed.

Speaking from my own personal experience there
have been moments on this forum when I became
so upset and distressed that I couldn't sleep
and became quite ill. We all tend to forget at
times that there are human beings sitting on the
other end of our computers and the words that we
use can have a big impact at times.
I've been guilty of using language that later I've
regretted and thought, "I shouldn't have said that,
or perhaps I should have said it differently."

We should all be able to speak our mind without using
malice, anger, or personal insults - but it
unfortunately doesn't always
come out that way. I guess it's true
that the art of reasoned, intelligent,
argument is a skill not easily acquired. And just as
true that we should all think before we post.

At least this discussion has made me want to try
to express myself better in my future posts on other
discussions.

See you on another thread.

PAUL1405...

I do tend to support (in principle) your views and opinions concerning the moral legitimacy, of both prosecuting the War itself, and employing Conscription, as a means of fighting that War. I believe you argued strongly and convincingly for your position !

I've got to agree. The French, and later the United States and her allies, should've kept right out of the place ? Do I believe we (the allies) lost the war in Vietnam ? In the Military sense, no ! Philosophically, absolutely - all of us, fought on two fronts. 'In- country', and at home. It's at home where the War was ultimately lost.

Your own conclusions that your upbringing did impose a strong 'pacifist' attitude, that you'll never lose, is most intuitive in itself ? Perhaps an apology from me is due ? Sometimes a true pacifists has more courage for his convictions, than others, who are simply swept along by the crowd ? I don't know, it's far too deep and complex for me ?

I should concede also, that my occasional lapse's into a style of narrative that may be perceived as provocative, can at first sight appear 'boorish' by some. So a stint with the Military (they'll take most anyone), thereafter the coppers (of which you, and millions more, have little or no respect), after which one must start preparations for one's ultimate demise !

There's a certain humour in it all, don't you agree ? It's for this reason, why I take most everything, certainly with OLO and the Forum, as being inconsequential, and just a bit of fun ! There's no true intent nor malice for my words to injure anyone.

Moreover PAUL1405, in the sunset of my existence, I must confess of deriving some amusement from first; identifying a confederate; an individual with nearly as many personality imperfections as do I; and periodically; teasing, taunting and goading him, for that most fundamental of all our human transgressions...EGO ! A blood sport it's clearly not, nevertheless it can fill in an hour or two in an otherwise quiet afternoon.

Oh dear FOXY...

A clear case of mea culpa I'm afraid ! I sort of pursue this as a bit of fun, nothing else. While it's true we all employ language that may and very occasionally offend, I honestly believe it's what's in our mind that counts. If we were to let the 'barbs' or arrows to strike sensitive areas, perhaps a brief break from all this is what's needed ?

If nothing else, thirty two years as a copper does tend to insulate one's inner-most feelings. And without the dramatics, you do tend to 'harden-up' after awhile.

In conclusion I'm dreadfully sorry if anything I've said, or inferred, stated or in any other way specified, has upset you, or caused you any unease. There are three of you ladies who regularly contribute to this facility, ladies of whom I have utmost respect...namely your good self, POIROT, and SUSEONLINE. I'd be mortified if I did or said anything, that any one of you, would find 'over the top' and clearly offensive, again I'm sorry.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for your concern and kind words.

However, you don't need to apologise to me.

What I have learned from this discussion because of
the emotions that I saw coming out - is how careful
I have to be in the future, with the words I use, so that they
wouldn't be misunderstood or misinterpreted - especially
when the intent isn't there to hurt anyone. It's been a
very valuable lesson to me and for that I am extremely
grateful.

I do enjoy this forum and the people
who contribute to it.
I am grateful to be a part of it.

Hopefully, I'll be able to stick around
for quite a while.

PAUL1405...

It's amazing to think that both the Germans and the allies threw every conceivable piece of ordnance at each other, and yet due to some unbelievable lull in the battle, both sides emerged battered and bruised from their respective trenches. Whereupon some played a game of football, and others shared a smoke, or a meagre piece of food, and others some convivial fellowship ? A brief lull in the fray, amid the dead and dying, before again resuming to once more engage in another pitched battle !

As I mentioned earlier, my maternal grandfather served on the Western Front. Like so many of his era and being under age, and quite tall, and apparently relatively plausible, he managed to falsify his DOB, and deceive his way into the Army (30th Bn. 1st AIF). He actually had his seventeenth birthday while he and his company saw heavy action somewhere in France ? Ultimately, he ended up being bombed, buried in mud, and gassed. He was determined a TPI, and died in 1967. He spoke very little of his experiences, much like your great uncle I suspect PAUL1405 ?

Curious was your statement '...the British won the war, the Germans, the football match...'? A moment of levity and I agree, however concerning WW1 while it's true the allied forces did overcome Germany and her allies, judging from the few old men who I knew, who fought in the Great War. As you quite rightly say, none of them ever looked or acted Victorious upon their return ? Most were absolutely spent, shattered, and emotionally burnt out. Consider if you will - Germany has twice, lost to the allied forces in two major conflicts. Yet today this twice vanquished nation, still manages to be an economic powerhouse, dictating the economic terms of the EEU ? Go figure ?

And so do I FOXY, so do I, hope that your can 'stick around' for a long, long time yet ! Your responses, and the language you employ in those responses, are as good as you can get anywhere on either OLO or the Forum itself. It's you that sets the standard, it's up to the others, if they wish to emulate that standard !

'night FOXY.

Some housekeeping if I may.

Earlier Albie Manton in Darwin posted part of a letter written by a US Iraqi war veteran who took his own life. It is an important message as we prepare to send more after him.

I'm posting the final section;

Quote;

The last thought that has occurred to me is one of some kind of final mission. It is true that I have found that I am capable of finding some kind of reprieve by doing things that are worthwhile on the scale of life and death. While it is a nice thought to consider doing some good with my skills, experience, and killer instinct, the truth is that it isn’t realistic. First, there are the logistics of financing and equipping my own operation, then there is the near certainty of a grisly death, international incidents, and being branded a terrorist in the media that would follow. What is really stopping me, though, is that I simply am too sick to be effective in the field anymore. That, too, has been taken from me.

Thus, I am left with basically nothing. Too trapped in a war to be at peace, too damaged to be at war. Abandoned by those who would take the easy route, and a liability to those who stick it out—and thus deserve better. So you see, not only am I better off dead, but the world is better without me in it.

This is what brought me to my actual final mission. Not suicide, but a mercy killing. I know how to kill, and I know how to do it so that there is no pain whatsoever. It was quick, and I did not suffer. And above all, now I am free. I feel no more pain. I have no more nightmares or flashbacks or hallucinations. I am no longer constantly depressed or afraid or worried.

I am free.

I ask that you be happy for me for that. It is perhaps the best break I could have hoped for. Please accept this and be glad for me.

Daniel Somers

http://gawker.com/i-am-sorry-that-it-has-come-to-this-a-soldiers-last-534538357

A sad loss.

To those who are in pain and feel isolated, be aware you are not alone. There are many who care, pick up the phone and call someone, what about Beyond Blue?

1300 22 4636
Call 24 hours a day,
7 days a week

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/get-immediate-support