This is really scary: Sharia law becoming established in Europe, and the implications for the rest of the world, not least Australia:

http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?bcid=1509282970001 (5 minutes 40 seconds long, now 2½ years old)

.

.

Or is it all a complete ruse, as per one of the comments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbMnA3uO9As&feature=youtu.be ….

< Do not be misled, dear Youtubers. As someone who has lived in Brussels for most of my life, I can assure you almost every muslim I have met has been westernised and democratised. Most of them are perfectly content living in a secular, diverse state such as Belgium as long as they have the right to practice their faith, the same right we accord to all religions. The man interviewed does not represent Islam and he most certainly does not represent the muslim population of Belgium. In the 2007 elections, 42% of Muslim voters voted for the Socialist party, 14% for the MR party, 12% for the Greens and 16% CDH. (Zibouh, 2011, Brussels Studies) This is 85% of the Muslim electorate voting for secularist, Belgian parties. "Sharia4Belgium" will never even win a seat and, even if they did, they would never win the support of the moderate muslims. This piece is sensationalist fear mongering. >

Dear Ludwig,

I remember reading some time ago that Belgian politicians
have submitted a proposal to impeach or limit the
influence of Muslim extremists in power. Sharia Law is
not compatible with the rights and freedoms written in
the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) which is
why they felt that the power of Muslim extremists must
be minimized.

There is an integration problem in Belgium.
The following link explains:

http://www.neurope.eu/article/belgiums-integration-problem

The Muslim minorities will vote for whoever gives them the most free money and other benefits, you'll notice that they don't make a stink about ideological differences, Belgium has same sex marriage for example and I don't recall any Islamist opposition in the run up to legalisation.
The idea of Muslims voting Socialist might seem weird but so was the high LNP vote among Indigenous Australians in the NT, minorities obviously vote on policy and personnel over other considerations.

JoM "The Muslim minorities will vote for whoever gives them the most free money and other benefits,..."

Really?
Couldn't you replace the word 'Muslim' in the above statement and use any other minority or majority group, and it would still be true?
It's just human nature JoM.

Surely it is the Government's fault if they are going to give out 'free money and other benefits' , and not those who will happily take it?

Suse,
Nope, secular non Muslims don't have Islam so they will often vote altruistically, the idea of "political beliefs" doesn't exist in Islamic communities.

Suseonline, "Surely it is the Government's fault if they are going to give out 'free money and other benefits' , and not those who will happily take it?"

Are you Asian? A Chinese friend who has been in Australia for many years (ex sponsored student) regards Australians as 'dumb cows' because of this country's welfare support. He maintains that if we really wanted the money we would not be giving it away. He states that in his culture, support of one's family is expected and obligatory, but spreading the kindness outside of the family to community is crass stupidity and complete lack of care for assets, ergo his 'dumb cows' comment about Australians.

Australian culture as it has 'evolved' under the Leftist 'Progressives' exhibits scant regard for the old (all unwanted baggage apparently), particularly those despised 'white' old men, eh Suseonline.

More of that 'diversity-we-are-obliged-to-have' and the political impact of multiculturalism will see accelerated, much tighter control of social services and welfare generally in the near future. For many years now the ethnic vote has been large enough in some seats for the ethnic tail to swing choice in pre-selection and policy. Apparently, it is a vastly different thing to be the ones taking advantage of government welfare (as you recommend, Suseonline) to one day becoming the ones who are stumping up for it as the taxpayers.

Whatever you do, Suseonline, you should be squirreling those nuts away to provide for your future, because there is an already a large and growing rump of the population, the ethnic vote, who do not believe they or their children should be paying for your old age, or for your medical treatment either when it comes to that.

Whichever way the pendulum swings with any Government payments Onthebeach, it will affect all of us equally , regardless of where we were born or what religion we follow.

There are plenty of fine older white men in my family OTB, it is only the homophobic, racist, women hating men of any colour and age that I despise....

Luidwig, a link for you...
http://rt.com/news/proposal-belgium-limit-muslims-612/

Quote: The two Muslim candidates, Lhoucine Aït Jeddig and Redouane Ahrouch, are both from Brussels’ two heavily Muslim municipalities, Molenbeek-Saint-Jean and We are elected Islamists but above all we are Muslims,” Ahrouch told reporters after being elected in October. “Islam is compatible with the laws of the Belgian people. As elected Muslims, we embrace the Koran and the tradition of the Prophet Mohammed. We believe Islam is a universal religion. Our presence on the town council will give us the opportunity to express ourselves.”

So Ahrouch has openly stated that he accepts the hate and violence in the Quran and has no problems with the attacks, looting, murder, rape and enslavement of men women and children by his dear prophet. But then again, that is all Muslims including Ludwig's moderate Muslims.

Wake up, and smell the coffee.

Another link:
http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/13-06-2012/121369-islamists_belgium-0/
It is pretty bad when Pravda is more honest then our papers.

It is time to recognize that Muslims will not live in peace with us evil infidels -- it is just a matter of time. Their values are those of the Quran and hadith. Take a look at Islamic societies if you doubt; or try to find the so-called "moderate" Muslim in them that will stand up to the Islamists.

As we slept, the authorities were raiding the poor peaceful Muslims in Australia. No doubt, our Muslim friends and sympathizers here will tell us that these are not true, real Muslims -- just a few lost souls seeking to express their feelings.

The opening of the West to the religion of hate and violence will be the end of us all. Blood will flow.

Onthebeach,

I had the same experience in Singapore. An old Chinese (but younger than I) told me the West (ie., Europe, Canada, US and Australia) was mad, taking in millions of Muslims and then giving them welfare beyond their wildest dreams. It is a double-disaster. He said "we don't trust Muslims because we know them".

Our leaders are fools. Nothing will change. Even after Rotherham, Boko Haram, ISIS, IS, Al-Queda, the latest outrages and arrests, our leaders will tell us that terror has nothing to do with Islam. Well, my mistake, something will change, it will get worse.

If I wanted to use welfare in order to propagate my beliefs I would certainly be voting for Labour/ socialist/Greens. Just look at Western Sydney. The progressives never accept any facts unless it agrees with their small minded narrative.

' Do not be misled, dear Youtubers. As someone who has lived in Brussels for most of my life, I can assure you almost every muslim I have met has been westernised and democratised '

how gullible can one be. We saw how western muslims were when cartoons were published and they tried burning half of Europe. And where is Rushdie after quoting a few verses from the Koran? Anyone seen him lately? And why is Governments in every Western nation spending billions in order to try and protect their citizens from ' western ' muslims.

Yep we have had a royal commission into child abuse and hopefully crimminals brought to justice, we are having one into the unions and hopefully the thugs/thieves will get charged, now it is time to have a royal commission into Islamic practices in Australia! Fat chance as the progressives with their pig headed blindness have created these problems.

Dear Kactuz,

You're certainly a person on a mission and you're
flogging your anti-Muslim stance admirably on this
forum. But you're not alone by any means as the
following link shows:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-21/anti-islam-hate-campaign-raises-tensions-to-violent-new-heights/5402526

Foxy,
Nathan Abela, Ralph Cerminara and Nick Folkes can muster maybe five people onto the streets to support them, they're not Australian nationalists they're far right "Likudniks".
Abela isn't even White, Cerminara is a pathological liar and Folkes is married to an Asian woman but they're the go-to guys for Leftie journalists when they want quotes to fabricate some evidence of a racist "Far Right" threat.
Apart from the fact that talking about these stooges at all gives them an air of credibility the only worry is that because Lebanese hoodlums are not known for their marksmanship an innocent bystander might be shot rather than someone who deserves it.

Oh you silly ones the beheading of innocent Australians is just a distraction from the budget.

Foxy you are wrong on this one sweetie. There are large numbers of these people who are really bad. They are bad for other Muslims, & they are even worse for us.

These people are tribal. They always hunt in packs, & anywhere they achieve even moderate numbers, the rest are forced out. I had a business in Lakemba in the 60s. None of those I knew or did business with then, are still there. It became so unpleasant with the constant waves of hatred aimed at them in the street, & implied threats of attack, that they moved out.

We will end up fighting them here, & will make Palestine look like a kindergarten scuffle, it is just a matter of time.

My daughters fiancée is taking leave to help his folks move out of Penrith. The Nigerian negro youth have made living there a nightmare. His mother is too frightened to leave the house alone.

Their house will bring almost $200,000 less than it was worth 6 years ago, but they have to wear that. Multiculturalism, refugee policies, & PC policing, which is almost totally hands off, have ruined their plans, & life. The cops aren't game to touch these people. Bringing one of them in for an offence is too damaging to a young cops career, that they just won't do it.

It really is time we sat on our wealthier members of the community with their do good rubbish. It appears they don't care how many of ours they hurt, as long as they get that warm feeling of helping the yabbo.

'Their house will bring almost $200,000 less than it was worth 6 years ago,

guaranteed Hasbeen it won't be highly Government paid Government workers who will move to those areas. They will continue to epouse how wonderful it is for everyone to live in harmony while living in leafy suburbs.

Luddy here is a viable scenario...Muslims become the major voting block.....extremists stand on a platform of Sharia.....they loose...the moderates don’t want Sharia.

@Foxy, Thursday, 18 September 2014 2:31:13 PM

You and the feckless ABC have got to be joking,

http://www.anzmi.net/index.php/updated-cases?pid=349&sid=409:Cerminara

Give up the spin if it is your day job and earn honest money somewhere else. If it isn't putting bread on your table why waste your time?

The very least you could do at a time like this is get down on your knees and give thanks to your god that the Australian police can continue to apprehend terrorists and malcontents before the do harm.

http://tinyurl.com/terrorist-cells-brisbane

Dear Hasbeen,

I'm so sorry that things have gotten so bad in the
Western suburbs of Sydney. I grew up there as you
know.

I worry about what kind of Australia we are now and
what kind we will become. I worry about all the
hatred and fear mongering that is being spread
around. Of course people are fearful. Our governments
and the press don't help. They seem to be more
concerned about political tactics rather than addressing
the real issues that we're facing.

Thank You for your patience and understanding.
I respect your opinion greatly, as you know.

Take care.

There's something slightly stinky about this "beheading plot", why is an Afghan Shia kid taking orders from a Sunni extremist, ISIS normally butcher Shia where they find them as they view them as heretics.
Police apparently confiscated a Talwar sword from the premises, an artifact used by Shia on the day of Ashura
http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1600-8/photos/1353840538-tatbeer-caravan-during-muharam--manama_1630598.jpg

Meanwhile in Harris Park,
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-christian-school-targeted-by-death-threats-from-car-with-flag-similar-to-islamic-states-20140918-10ige1.html

just an ordinary day.

....Dear Kactuz,

You're certainly a person on a mission and you're
flogging your anti-Muslim stance admirably on this
forum. But you're not alone by any means as the
following link shows:

Foxy, the truth hurts and, if you think Muslims here in Oz are not a threat, then by all means continue hiding your head in the sand because this raid is only the beginning.

I have been calling for years to ban the religion, not the people as they are welcome, provided they leave their baggage at the front door. Something they are obviously not capable of doing.

The recent foiled attempt to commit terrorism here will not stop them. They are here now and they will be planning their next move and to believe our former leaders, from both sides of politics have openly accepted this is utterly ridiculous to the extreme.

While I am very much in favor of multiculturalism, simply because we would not be the country we are today if not for our invited guests, I am very much opposed to what I call muslimisum.

So to all those who call me a racist, do be aware there is a difference between racism and realism and this is as real as it gets and something that has been brewing for years if not decades and our leaders, being so concerned about political correctness have done nothing pro active about this looming threat, even though the problem has been experienced with other nations with their open door approach to multiculturalism.

It, multiculturalism has been a dismal failure wherever Muslims have been involved.

Perhaps now this current government will finally act and ban this religion/faith, call it what you like, from our peace loving nation.

Our naturalisation ceremony now needs an additional clause.

Do you reject Sharia Law ?

Not sure that it would do much good but it would at a later time give
the opportunity to deport someone who was promoting an Islamic government.

Can anyone possibly argue that we not need to stop moslem immigration ?

If doubtful watch this;
http://t.ymlp329.net/bbadauhbmyaraheagabquw/click.php

Dear Rehctub,

We can always find people to blame and fear.
Instead of looking and analysing the real
problems that we have and the issues that need
fixing. And of course our politicians and media
don't help. We're so fearful of so many things -
and at present it happens to be Muslims. And yet
we are creating a rotten situation currently
where even the moderates just may turn against us.

Take a look at how our governments and press have
demonised boat people for the past 15 years.
As one website that I looked up reminded -
"We'll lock up asylum seekers in offshore detention
centres, we'll stand idly as they slowly go crazy,
or harm themselves, we'll refuse journalists the right
to speak to them or name them, we'll redefine our
borders to not let them in, we'll farm them off to our
impoversiehd, under-developed neighbours..."

Rather than construct a humane and efficient system to
process their claims for Asylum. And so it goes.

And now our PM is talking about "humanitarian Aid," to
Iraq in the form of troops and war planes, et cetera - when
at the beginning of the year he cut the humanitarian aid to zero.
Scott Morrison would not give us details about what was
happening at sea in "towing the boats back," yet on the
news now - we're being confronted with the dangers of Muslims
and police raids. This is a political tactic.
And then we wonder why the Muslim
population is now protesting.

As I stated in my earlier post - what kind of Australia
are we becoming, and what kind do we really want to be?

The frightening thing is - hysteria is being whipped up
and we're falling for it.

Foxy said;
We can always find people to blame and fear.
Instead of looking and analysing the real
problems that we have and the issues that need
fixing
>
Do you really believe this ?
I am amazed that you think there is a real negotiating position
available to us. You need to be more widely read.
Famously, 100s of years ago the Islamists offered three choices;
1. Submit to Islam
2. If you are Jewish or Christian, pay the Jizaz tax.
3. Be killed.
The tax is in lieu of the assets the moslem would acquire when you
are killed and your family is sold into slavery.

You think this no longer applies ?
Well you are wrong it is being applied TODAY !
It cannot be removed it is fundamental policy of Muhammad

Dear Bazz,

In the words of William F. Buckley Jr:

"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting
that you really believe what you just said."

Neatly put, Foxy.

I sometimes wonder what sort of fear-ridden, fretful lives some people must live.

Sad.

Bazz,
Thanks for posting the link to Clare Lopez' presentation.
It reinforced what so many of us are already aware of in our communities.
The biggest thing holding us back would appear to be our political leader's reluctance to 'rock the boat', and therefore allowing the insidious infiltration to continue.

Junaid Thorne and his brother were both helped by our Australian consulate to return? here. Junaid having spent most of his life being indoctrinated abroad, then being allowed to incite our Aussies to join his cult disgusts me, as do the politicians who made it possible for this very young radical with an inflated opinion of himself to come here and spread his message of hate so openly.

A fine example of us helping our [ self proclaimed ]enemy, and it wouldn't surprise me to hear he's on Centrelink either. Anything is now possible in this world gone mad!

Political correctness allowed his aboriginal mother to ask for our help - and get it. Where is the father I wonder, and what nationality is he?

Dear Pericles,

It is sad that the fact remains that efforts
to change Australian's hearts and minds about
the treatment of either asylum seekers or
Muslims haven't succeeded.

Bazz, adding a phrase to denounce shariah law in the citizenship ceremony does not count for truthfulness. As deception is one of the values of Islam - to deceive an opponent is a worthy value in Islam.

Foxy and Pericles get fear ridden people mixed up with people who point out simple facts. Fits their narrative though so no amount of evidence we change their minds. The fools of Greens still believe it is all a diversion to the budget. Progressives are just as fundamental in their beliefs as those believing in the Koran. Both pig headed and wrong.

Yes indeed Runner, far better to be peace loving regressives who turn the other cheek, like you and Josephus....

Josephus, oh yes I am aware that they might lie about it, because if
they lie to an infidel that is not unethical, but it is unethical and
indeed it is perjury here. This is the definition in the Koran.

Therefore it lays the legal basis to cancel their naturalism and deport.
Foxy,
No I was not insulting your intelligence, I was expressing my amazement.
What I think that you believe is that most moslems are not like the
fanatics, but the problem as has been seen in London, Holland and
Belgium, the non fanatics just go along as the fanatics gradually
implement Sharia Law in their areas.
Remember their Immans have been telling them all their life how
wonderful it would all be when Allah rules the world under Sharia Law.

If I could draw a not very accurate simile, look at the denial in the
Catholic Church over the children scandals.
In Islam, you can hear women say how much better off they are than western women.
They really do believe that, but would you be prepared to live under
those customs ?
That sort of attitude is why the religious fascism, which is the
bottom line Islam gets into control.
Of course as the Imman of Tunisia said;
"We will conquer Europe by the power of our women's wombs !"

'Yes indeed Runner, far better to be peace loving regressives who turn the other cheek, like you and Josephus..

yea Susie the usual self righteousness from someone who backed ferals from trying even to stop free speach. That's regressives version of turning the other cheek. The only turning of cheeks from progressives is the baring of ones backside to authority.

Foxy, "what kind of Australia are we becoming, and what kind do we really want to be?"

Australians have always put freedom of speech and democracy as their first priorities.

The censoring political correctness of Leftist political Progressives' is directly opposed to that. The negative consequences of restrictions on freedom of speech and of multiculturalism taken to the extreme, is seen in Rotherham. In Rotherham, the corrupt political system and values from Pakistan were imported with devastating results.

So NO, Australians do not want any of that, nor do Australians want the 'Progressivism' and 'Progressive' restrictions on free speech that allowed it to bloom and continue.

<Rotherham
Babies of the Rotherham child abuse girls

Several of Rotherham’s 1,400 child abuse victims had babies after being made pregnant by the men who raped them, The Star can reveal.

But some of the girls who wanted to keep their children had them taken away under care orders – and were never allowed to see them again.

One of those who had a baby was Laura Wilson, aged 17, murdered in 2010 for ‘bringing shame’ on the families of two Pakistani men who’d had sex with her.

She was stabbed and thrown into a canal by Ashtiaq Ashgar, then also 17, when her little girl was just weeks old – after she told Ashgar’s family, and the family of her baby’s father, Ishaq Hussein, 22, about her relationships with them.

Social workers had known for years Laura was at risk from predatory Asian gangs. It is suspected she was targeted by men from the age of 11..

Professor Alexis Jay’s explosive report, published earlier this week, said child sexual exploitation in the town had an ‘absolutely devastating’ effect on the estimated 1,400 victims.

It was later revealed social workers had known for six years Laura was at risk from predatory Asian [Pakistani] gangs, and had received information about adults suspected of targeting her from the age of 11..>

http://tinyurl.com/ljtmf4c

Onthebeach, as awful as the abuse and deaths from Rotherham were, this sort of thing happens to girls and women all over the world, and is not restricted to one religion, culture or race.

Dear Bazz,

Australia is not like Europe or any other country.
We have always faced our challenges and we have
overcome them. And, we shall continue to do in the
future. However, if we are to live at ease with each
other we need to stop the fear-mongering otherwise
we just may end up creating the type of society we fear.

Well said, Foxy; words like 'idotic' and 'brainless' come to mind, but well said none the less.

I do admire the way that you stick to your guns, ineffective and inaccurate though they be.

Suseonline,

Your rationalisation is the classical Tu Quoque fallacy, ie that others do it too.

Children and adolescents use it a lot, "So and so does it.."

There is also false comparison, which means that you have not understood the import of the organised trafficking (for instance) that is (not was!) taking place in Rotherham. I could add other nasties such as encouraging drug dependency. It is a toxic political culture that has been imported that, along with multicultural policy (the PC for instance that deters complaints and action), that sets Rotherham and other towns apart.

However you are just trying to spread the blame. Why wouldn't you want the offenders brought to trial and the systemic corruption disrupted?

Foxy, which part of 'they hate us' don't you understand. The latest foiled terror attacks are living proof that as long as so called Australians are allowed to worship their Muslim religion, the threat that some will change and become a threat to our peace loving nation will forever remain. I repeat, I don't hate Muslims, I hate the religion/faith they choose to follow.

As for asylum seekers, I have asked you this question many times and so far you have chosen not to answer, so I will ask it again.

If we welcome these arrivals with open arms, which is what I think you want, where is the money needed to provide for them going to come from? Or more importantly, what services, or what sector of our own public will we take from, because we don't have enough now?

While its all well and good to feel all warm and fuzzy, nothing can be implemented without funding.

Onthebeach, where did I say I didn't want criminals brought to trial?
More lies it seems.
Australia has courts and legal systems to bring any criminal to trial here, regardless of their nationality or culture, so what is the problem?

Is Mise, you only serve to lower your already low standards by calling Foxy childish names.

Rehctub, no one is suggesting we allow only Muslim or Middle Eastern immigrants into this country are they?

We have an immigration and refugee intake plan that changes depending on world events, and I would hope our country takes those refugees from the most needy parts of the world, wherever that is.

We don't live in isolation here. We have to take part in immigration and refugee intakes if we are to continue importing and exporting things we need from other countries.
Australians want to continue being part of the world community, and not just the little bitter, narrow minded community you seem to want.

Dear Rehctub,

Regarding asylum seekers and the costs involved
And where would the money come from?
I'm sure that the money we're currently spending
on detention centres, and the costs of maintaining
them, including the hugers costs involved in farming people
off to our impoverished, under-
developed neighbours.

It would be far cheaper to construct a more humane
and efficient system to process their claims for
asylum. Allowing them to work temporarily would also
be useful.

cont'd ...

As for your cry of - "They hate us!"

Who exactly?

The only hate I see is from people like yourself -
and that scares the living daylights out of me
because hatreds tend to re-inforce each other,
then there's a complete break-down in communication,
and nothing of any value can be achieved. Surely
you don't want that?

Ok Foxy, so what you're suggesting is that we offer them some sought if holiday village, with the flip side of cause being that we are heading towards not having enough jobs for our own people, so it would be fair to assume that these arrivals won't have jobs either. Perhaps it's a labor thing, as the deterrent worked well until Rudd came along.

Now while there may be some merit in your suggestion of redirecting the funding, what happens once the resort is open and the numbers increase ten fold.

As for Muslims, I would suggest that while some actually like us, the rest are made up of those who tolerate us, and those who outright hate us. Of cause the word 'us' is generalizing, as those who hate us hate anyone who does not support their religion.

And of cause many of the iuninvited are Muslims as well.

You know the more I think about my reply, the more I think to myself, you have to be kidding. Surely you can't be blind to what's happening in any country these people have immigrated to. Not all of cause, but as I say, one terrorist in one too many and I fear we have just woken the sleeping giant right here at home.

What you see as racism, I see as realism.

Suse,

"Is Mise, you only serve to lower your already low standards by calling Foxy childish names"

Where did I call her names, childish or otherwise?

Looks like your perception of English is slipping again.

@Suseonline, Saturday, 20 September 2014 2:25:49 PM

You are on the back foot and in denial.

Read the post again.

rechtub,

"....The latest foiled terror attacks are living proof that as long as so called Australians are allowed to worship their Muslim religion, the threat that some will change and become a threat to our peace loving nation will forever remain. I repeat, I don't hate Muslims, I hate the religion/faith they choose to follow."

There you go again.

You identify a person by their religion..ie "Muslim" and say you don't hate them but their religion.

I've explained before that "religion" is nothing in itself. It doesn't exist without the human element - without it's adherents and their practices.

That's like someone saying they hate Christianity, but are perfectly all right with Christians.

It doesn't make sense.

"The latest foiled terror attacks ...."

Tones and Co have done an excellent job beating this one up....and the media have sailed along in unison.

I hope you are sufficiently "alert but not alarmed"...because this stunt is designed to make you alarmed and increase the tensions between people in this country.

And all in the service of taking your mind off what a deplorable govt it is that was elected.

It's a tried and true strategy when a govt is considerably on the nose.

(Don't mention the budget....I did once but I think I got away with it:)

Just out of idle curiosity I wonder does it say in the Koran, or anywhere else, when the Prophet's young wife Aeysha first mensurated?

Poirot, you can put any twist on it you like, and even if my chosen words are wrong, it doesn't matter because what matters is that radical Muslims gain their hatred from the same religion/faith, call it what you like as so called moderate Muslims, so the best option to rid our nation of terrorism is to ban the religion. Although I do fear its now too late.

As for the budget, yep, what a mess. Have you ever given thought to where we would be had we not gone down the Kevin 07 failed today.experiment.

Prior to then we were in fantastic shape, yet for some reason people decided it was time for a change and they got caught up with Kevins media tart personality. If only people had stuck to the unwritten rule of, if it aint broken, don't fix it, we would be flying high today.

rechtub,

You're such a sucker for media spin.

You'll lap up anything this shambles of a govt will dish out to you - it's designed for people like you.

"As for the budget, yep, what a mess. Have you ever given thought to where we would be had we not gone down the Kevin 07 failed today.experiment.

Prior to then we were in fantastic shape..."

According to Joe, we still are!

"Joe Hockey has told New Zealand that there is no crisis in the Australian economy, nor is it in trouble.

The treasurer also made no mention of the "budget emergency" he and his government referred to when justifying their unpopular budget to Australians.

Instead, Mr Hockey reassured Kiwis that their second biggest trading partner is benefiting from 23 years of consecutive economic growth.

"The Australian economy is not in trouble," he told New Zealand political current affairs show The Nation on Saturday."

""There's no crisis at all in the Australian economy," the treasurer said."

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/australian-economy-is-not-in-trouble-joe-hockey-tells-nz-20140726-zx6ie.html#ixzz3Dtr9kbV0

So there's the big cigar-chomping honcho being honest for once (something he would never dream of doing when addressing Australians)

Poirot,

The country is really in a mess if you are right that the Commissioners of Police in Queensland and NSW colluded with the Commonwealth police and Federal Agencies and the Government just to take pressure off Tony over the budget.

Surely this would be a criminal offence?

Ahh, Rechtub, havn't you learnt not to argue with computers ?

Bazz,

Perhaps you have an explanation for Joe telling New Zealanders one thing - and Australians another?

He was lying to one or the other.

Now I wonder which?.....

Dear Bazz,

It's not computers that are the problem
on this forum. Some people are not capable
of dealing with facts that don't agree with
their points of view when they're presented.

From these people - All sorts of
accusations abound, from accusations of -
"Fabianism," to "Socialism," to "Feminism"
to "Progressivism," to "Emily Listers,"
to being part of the "Grrrl-brigade,"
or on the tax-payers "gruvvy train."
Then when giving sources for one' facts -
one is accused of "cherry-picking,"
and also the sources are often - "unacceptable."
Then
when presenting facts broadly -speaking -
accusations of not
presenting any sources aboud. You can't win.
And even false accusations are made - of
what you neither intended nor said, and finally,
even made up sources are accredited to you that you
neither gave nor read.

So you see - it's not the computers that are the
problem - its the nutters using them who hide
behind thir anonymity and try to inflict their
narrow- points of view on the rest of us.
Facts and different view points be damned.
And by the way - it shouldn't come as a surprise
that these people are the greatest warriors for
"free speech." They're own of course!

C POIROT: Print:
"When I go to Melbourne I tend to exaggerate the advantages of living in Sydney ! " c/r

poirot, I don't really care what Joe, or anyone else for that matter says about our economy, as the fact is we are headed for a train wreck if we happen to loose mining.

While there was a spike in employment last quarter, they were temp jobs, hardly what one could bank their futures on as gone are the days of job security.

The other issue that many, including the media and governments have seemed to ignore, is the looming closure of our car industries, which will most likely be the biggest hit on our economy in modern times.

So if you, or anyone else for that matter thinks we are in great shape, then more fool you I say. Didn't you just tell me not to believe what I hear and read!

Foxy, I don't hide from anyone and if you wish to communicate with me via email, be my guest, just contact Graham for my address as I am more than willing to debate with you. Or anyone else for that matter.

BTW, would I be right in assuming Foxy is not your real name!

Poirot,>> (Don't mention the budget....I did once but I think I got away with it:)<<

P, I can’t fathom the reasoning behind whipping the TV repair man and replacing him with the imbecile who kicked the screen in.

Sorry P, but the following are facts:

Rudd inherited a $20 billion surplus.

During the Global Financial Crisis our GDP actually GREW every year except 2010.

P the wasted and rorted “stimulus packages” when measured against our GDP for those “economic crisis years” express as a fraction like this 0.0?.......not enough to change any aspect of economy as was declared the intent.....populist vote buying for the Labor Party was its purpose and they couldn’t even get that right.

I will qualify all I have said by saying once again....Hockey is an imbecile and Australia is still the CHEAPEST place for the Global Miners to operate on this planet ...................they pay no tax.

A last fact, in 1970 the average global tax bill for corporations was 26%........Today, globally, it is 9%....

...................they pay no tax.

Poirot, are you serious!

How can you say they pay no tax?

Not only that, but what about the taxes they create through employment?

If you seriously think they don't pay their share, then why not get rid of mining, then you will see the meaning of tough times.

Dear Rehctub,

It wasn't you that I was referring to in my earlier
post. And no Foxy is not my real name - although
it is a nickname that I was given and have used
it all of my life. I assume Rehctub is not your
real name either?

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

and "Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Both known, among many, of Hermann Goering's quotes.

Have we learned nothing from history? Are we still so gullible and so easily lead that we can be put up to see some people as 'the other'? Less human? The enemy? Even those that deny it.

Foxy, you remain polite. I struggle with anger when I see this insistent need to find validation that there is an enemy about we need to go to war against. War is a most terrible calamity. I've been brought up on personal experiences from the WWII in both Europe and Asia, from soldiers and civilians.

Foxy, did you read this article? http://www.smh.com.au/comment/it-only-takes-one-drop-to-swell-the-tide-of-terrorism-20140921-10jwmt.html?utm_source=social&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=nc&eid=socialn%3Afac-13omn1676-edtrl-other%3Annn-17%2F02%2F2014-edtrs_socialshare-all-nnn-nnn-vars-o

Dear Yvonne,

Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen it.

Excellent article.

At least some newspapers are being responsible.

There's hope yet.

Did anyone watch the ABC's "Q and A," program
last night - Monday 22nd September 2014 at 9.35pm?

It was an interesting panel and audience.

I am curious as to what others thought of the
discussion.

'I am curious as to what others thought of the
discussion.

extremely predictable with an atrocious panel with apologist for Islamic violence.

justification for violence

- our supposed suppport of Israel
- victimhood of muslims
- blaming the West for 1400 years of violence

Tony Jones was pathetic. The abc should not be funded with taxpayers money to propagate such rubbish in the guise of open discussion.

The whole show was pathetic, poor Muslims are being targeted.

If that's so then it was fellow Muslims that are working the target frames.

It's all a conspiracy to take peoples minds off the budget.

One panelist bleated that the presence of the news cameras was for the theatrical effect.
The police may have initially, a few years ago, thought that having the cameras along was good for the image but now it's mainly so that everyone can see what is going on and false accusations are not easy to level.
It's also democracy in action, the people should be able to see what is happening, commensurate with the safety of news crews.

None of you in the blanket anti-Muslim brigade has ever experienced the constant hatred for what another thinks you represent or what another thinks you are. Especially as a minority group. With no chance of ever being able to say anything to the contrary about yourself. Just by walking out on the street. Opinions about you are set by others who nothing about you. None of you could even imagine what that feels like.

The lot of you would have felt right at home in Nazi Germany with people being forced to wear a yellow star on their jacket. It didn't matter whether you were Orthodox Jewish, had a smidgen of Jewish blood in you, followed bits of the Jewish faith or were totally secular. You were the scapegoat to galvanize a people to get them to wage war.

Nothing changed after the twin towers came down, except that now it takes a ridiculous long time to board a flight. Planes still fly and still crash without the aid of terrorists.

More people get killed driving to and from the airport then from terrorist attacks. More people get killed by random drunk drivers, partners, drive-by shootings and gang violence, sharks and crocodiles, yet we still go about our daily lives without being panicked.

If you are a disenfranchised loser, who gets accused of stuff anyway, why on Earth wouldn't you want to join the biggest baddest gang on the block making everybody running scared?

I lived in the UK when the Brighton hotel where there was a Lib get together was bombed by the IRA with Thatcher (the PM!) in residence. One minister got killed. Was there a campaign against all Irish, all Catholics? No.

Come off it Yvonne, time to grow up kiddo.

We have dozens of races here, tens of religions, & when many of these came, their qualifications, if any, were not recognised. Most, if not all of these people disappear into the community, & within a decade have effectively disappeared.

Our current crop of Muslims have walked into the land of milk & honey. Not only are our laws not enforced with them, [bigamy], our welfare system is quietly adapted to facilitate their practices.

They have set themselves up to stand out against the crowd, while becoming the most skilled at ripping the system off, in every way possible.

I'm sure they don't have a word for decency, or for gratitude, & their arrival has brought only disharmony & pain to all of us.

Dear Yvonne,

Thank You for your voice of reason.
And for raising such valid points.
It's given me a great deal of food for
thought. I hope that others will read
your excellent post.

I guess the only way for sanity to prevail at
the moment in this country - is for all of us
not to give in to the fear-mongering.
After what I heard last night - I can't
even begin to imagine what it must be like to be
a Muslim in this country at present.

" I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to be
a Muslim in this country at present."

If living in Bankstown, Lakemba etc., it's just like home.

yvonne

Believe it or not I have some sympathy for your view on this one. Muslims are not the problem but Islam is. The reality is that whatever your view of multiculturism that including Islamic immigration has proven a massive failure. How much has had to be spent on Buddhist or Hinduism terrorism?

Naturally that makes it very difficult for the many muslims just wanting to live a peaceful life away from the chaos of their own countries. However if less than 2% of our population can cause such havoc and hatred imagine if we continue with this path what is will be like for our grandchildren. Already muslims are making it intolerable for Jews in parts of Sydney.

Your very poor attempt to equate IRA terrorist does not help your cause. We are talking 2014 and you only need to look at London, France, Germany, Sweden and any other place where muslims have immigrated to see massive problems.

Your arguement about disenfranchisement really holds little water as many of those joining from England, Europe, Australia are well educated (at the West's expense). They were shown kindness only to poop on those doing so in the name of Allah.

So yes it must be an awful dilemma for the peaceful muslims however many of them seem to be silent or in fear of their own radicals. If those on Q & A were mean't to be models of moderates we are in bigger trouble than most want to face up to. They were simply excuse makers for violence and happy to wear the victim tag in order to gain sympathy.

There is something dreadfully wrong with the format of Q&A. Tony Jones is a problem in himself.

I have heard Dr Anne Aly speak before and she made good sense. Given the format, compering and dynamics of Q&A she was not able to present and develop her case at all, which I believe was to the detriment of the public watching.

What were they thinking putting Scott Ludlam, Greens Senator, on the same show? Randa Abdel-Fattah was a lightweight and out of place, but not a waste of space like Ludlam, whose hands should shake when he puts them out for his senator's pay.

Dump Jones for starters and try again with Jenny Brockie. Better still, dump Jones and Q&A and have Jenny Brockie interview people like Dr Aly at length. Why squander the opportunity?

Honestly, Q&A and Jones waste and patronise the talent who come onto the show. It is a fair bet few would ever return. Not so the human headlines who are always available and perhaps preferred by the producers. Or at least it seems that way.

Yvonne said;
in Nazi Germany with people being forced to wear a yellow star on their jacket.

Yvonne it was not us that forced the moslem women to wear Burkas or
the hijab. We would prefer them not to wear those clothes and be the
same as the rest of us.
Similarly those bearded ones in their night dresses.

Think about who sets whom apart ?
There is some hope, girls have been seen taking off the hijab on the
way to school as they get on the bus.
Boys can have a remarkable effect on girls.

Occasionally Q&A has had religious leaders on in the past. Predictably Tony Jones and other have quized Christians in particular on their beliefs on creation, homosexuality, marriage etc. Throw into the mix the abuses of the Catholic church. Accompanied by a sneering audience Jones feels vindicated with his little setups. Always very predictable that they demonise anyone not in the ' progressive group think'. Just amazing hypocrisy that the same questions never get asked of the Islamic leaders (including moderates). The intolerance of the Islamic religion is constantly hidden and glossed over. The focus becomes on victimhood. No questions on girls being multilated, sexual jihad, Koranic verses on Jews and Christians and infidels, massive welfare fraud, polygamy etc etc The abc is an enemy of Australia.

Islamists in Algeria have just captured a French Mountain guide and
have threatened to decapitate him unless France stops its attack on IS
in 24 hours.

Given this is America, I would never have believed it....Britian and Europe maybe.....what about Australia.

A Christian group is assaulted by Muslims.....the police can not protect Christians against Muslim cowards....sickening...this what some of you are defending, allowing to flourish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOL_ommK3qg

Well said Hasbeen, the object of muslims is to take over, not integrate.

The Abbott government needs to stop the kid glove treatment and firstly ban further muslim immigration.

By my reckoning there were about 30.000 arrivals from predominantly muslim countries last year and that has been occurring for years.

'The Abbott government needs to stop the kid glove treatment and firstly ban further muslim immigration. '

The only solution Banjo for anyone that loves peace.

Yvonne,

I particularly liked this excerpt from the SMH article that you quoted,
"Last week's police sweep in Sydney is a classic case in point. Eight hundred police were used to round up a group of morons. The cost to taxpayers would be enormous. Although the police targets were poorly educated and unskilled, they were discussing murder. It is fortunate that the morons went out of their way to bring themselves to the attention of the police, attending a courtroom and showing open contempt for the process, then chattering on their phones about jihad.
What happens if someone smarter decides they want to wage jihad against kaffir infidels in Australia? It only takes one. It only takes a tiny percentage of a population to tilt a society from the axis of common decency to rule by the gun."

I agree but would point out that the cost to the taxpayers was not enormous; the biggest cost factor would be wages and these would be paid no matter what the police were doing.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/it-only-takes-one-drop-to-swell-the-tide-of-terrorism-20140921-10jwmt.html#ixzz3E8hAuWRQ

another terrorist at work in Melbourne tonight. Salvation army? Buddhist? Hindu? Global warmist?

u guessed it.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/man-shot-dead-two-counterterrorism-officers-stabbed-outside-endeavour-hills-police-station/story-fni0fee2-1227068293410

Heard on the radio a little earlier;
One Victorian policeman and one Federal Policeman were stabbed in Melbourne tonight.
I did not hear any detail except that.
Not fatal I think, both taken to hospital.

It has started hasn't it ?

We are going to need a political party like the Freedom Party in
Holland headed up by Geert Wilders.
I am waiting for a level headed party that will stand up for Australia
not a rat bag party, but one that will say to the moslems, sorry but
your religion is not compatible with Australia and the Koran is a hate
publication and is banned. All copies will be destroyed.
If you do not like this then please find a country that you do like.
We could even help them to sell their homes etc.

In Holland the Koran is illegal because it states that the Jews are to be killed.
It also is very hateful of all infidels, ie the original population of the country.
Do we have legislation about publications on religious hate ?
If so the Koran could be illegal here. Anybody know ?

Dear Bazz,

The Koran is not illegal in Holland.
Hitler's biography, "Mein Kampf," has
been for over 60 years.

Geert Wilders tried to have the Koran banned in Holland
but he failed. His party won only 9 seats out of 150
in Parliament.

The Koran was banned in the Soviet Union from 1926 to
1957, along with the Bible and other books
considered to be "socially deviant"
by the regime.

As for banning the Koran in Australia?
Well, I guess the question is - if one can get upset over
book burning and the banning of the Bible then one should
be equally upset over those of other faiths being
persecuted as well. To do otherwise is the definition of
hypocrisy.

Freedom of religion means ALL religions. And in this
country freedom of religion is one of our basic values.
After all basic human rights are not on a list we can
pick and chose from a la carte like a fast food menu.

Nevertheless if that is what you are suggesting we should
be reduced to, then it is no wonder that our minds will
become as malnourished as our bodies.

Freedom of religion does not mean all religions, only ones that do not offend and which do not break the law.

Some religious practices are also not allowed e.g. Hindu holy men, or sadhus, who have taken a solemn life long vow to not wear clothes are refused visas to Australia and anyone who makes such a vow and attempts to publicly put it into practice in Australia will be arrested and charged.

Dear Is Mise,

All Australians are free to follow any religion they
choose, so long as its practices do not break any
Australian law. That has been stated many times on
this forum and we should all know that by now.

However, it should also be made very clear that

All Australians are entitled to the
protection of these laws.

If we get upset at being
persecuted then we should also be equally upset over
other faiths being persecuted as well.

Foxy, I had an idea it was illegal to advocate violence in speach or print.
I could be wrong of course.
Re Geert Wilders, I think you might be referring to an earlier election.
I think his party is now second largest in parliament.
I will check in a minute.

Foxy here are the results of the 2012 election;
Leader Mark Rutte Diederik Samsom Geert Wilders
Party VVD PvdA PVV
Leader since 2006 2012 2006
Last election 31 seats, 30 seats 24 seats
20.5% 19.6% 15.4%

Seats won 41 38 15
Seat change +10 +8 -9
Popular vote 2,504,948 2,340,750 950,263
Percentage 26.6% 24.8% 10.1%
Swing +6.1% +5.2% -5.3%

Interestingly they lost seats in the 2012 election. It looks like
they have elections every three years, so there will be another next year.

Have you read his book ? I have, I think you would find it
interesting and quite balanced. Certainly more balanced than what
happened in Melbourne last night.

Arrrrggghhh, I tried to improve the format but this website removes
both tabs and extra spaces.
I think it is better than when I just copied the table into the page.

I was surprised they lost so many seats. The next election will be
interesting.

Foxy, here is the link to the 2012 election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_general_election,_2012

Further down the page under the heading Campaign there is criticism
that Wilders got involved in an argument with the Prime Minister which
it appear had an effect. Also, I did not realise he is an EU skeptic
which might have affected his party.
Cheers

Foxy,

You said: "Freedom of religion means ALL religions"

Erroneous statement but I'm glad that you realize that you were wrong and admit it.

Dear Bazz,

Thanks for the information.

I'm still a firm believer that we live in
a very lucky country and we're different
from the UK, and Europe because our
governments and our political and cultural
institutions have always had an institutional
framework that preserves tolerance and protects
order so that we can celebrate and enjoy
diversity in food, in music, in religion, in
language and culture. We could not do that of course
without the framework which guarantees the freedom
to enjoy diversity.

Of course unless we have a consensus of support about
how we form our legislatures and an agreement to
abide by its laws, none of us will be able to enjoy
our rights and liberties without being threatened by
others.

We have a compact to live under a democratic legislature and
obey the laws it makes. And in doing this the rights and
liberties of all are protected.

Terrorists and criminals, no matter
who they are - and those who support them
will be punished under our laws. The government has
asked us to stay calm and not give in to fear-mongering.
They have things under control. For that we can all be
grateful.

Foxy,

You cherry-pick from Peter Costello. Here is some more of his speech,

<Terrorists and those who support them do not acknowledge the rights and liberties of others – the right to live without being maimed, the right to live without being bombed – and as such they forfeit the right to join in Australian citizenship.
The refusal to acknowledge the rule of law as laid down by democratic institutions also stabs at the heart of the Australian compact. The radical Muslim Cleric Ben Brika was asked in an interview on the 7.30 Report in August last year:-

“But don't you think Australian Muslims – Muslims living in Australia – also have a responsibility to adhere to Australian law?”
To which he answered:-
“This is a big problem. There are two laws – there is an Australian law and there is an Islamic law.”

No this is not a big problem. There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution. If you can't accept that then you don't accept the fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for.

Our State is a secular State. As such it can protect the freedom of all religions for worship. Religion instructs its adherents on faith, morals and conscience. But there is not a separate stream of law derived from religious sources that competes with or supplants Australian law in governing our civil society. The source of our law is the democratically elected legislature.

There are countries that apply religious or sharia law – Saudi Arabia and Iran come to mind. If a person wants to live under sharia law these are countries where they might feel at ease. But not Australia.
And the citizenship pledge should be a big flashing warning sign to those who want to live under sharia law. A person who does not acknowledge the supremacy of civil law laid down by democratic processes cannot truthfully take the pledge of allegiance. As such they do not meet the pre-condition for citizenship.>
contd.

contd..

<Before entering a mosque visitors are asked to take off their shoes. This is a sign of respect. If you have a strong objection to walking in your socks don't enter the mosque. Before becoming an Australian you will be asked to subscribe to certain values. If you have strong objections to those values don't come to Australia.

We need to be very clear on these issues. There are some beliefs, some values, so core to the nature of our society that those who refuse to accept them refuse to accept the nature of our society.

If someone cannot honestly make the citizenship pledge, they cannot honestly take out citizenship. If they have taken it out already they should not be able to keep it where they have citizenship in some other country.

Foxy, I am afraid your thinking has become redundant.
It works with the religion of all others who have come previously.
We are now facing a different way of thinking.

As Geert Wilders wrote in his book Sentenced to Death, he has a death
fatwre (spelling) on him, the moslems have set out in their immigration
program the procedures to take as their percentage of numbers rise.

They are right on track here in Australia. They are further along in
the UK & France. In Marseille there are declared Sharia law areas and
the police are not allowed entry.
In the UK they are attempting to introduce sharia areas in parts of London.

Take heed,

Dear Bazz,

I strongly suggest that you read
"The Costello Memoirs," it really is
a great read particularly all of the
"Appendices" at the end that have been
included and cover such relevant topics
as - "Worth Promoting: Worth Defending:
Australian Citizenship."

I've quoted from
this book so many times on this forum -
that I'm beginning to sound
like a broken record -
but reading it for yourself will make it
even better and will give you a good
perspective of why we shouldn't be all that concerned.

We have a system of laws that do work as I tried
to explain and as Mr Costello points out.

The American lawyer David E. Springer
who felt a duty to address the shortcomings in the
American system stated:

"At all times, vigilance is the price of liberty.
We must remain vigilant because while it might be
us today, it will be some other group down the road
20 years from now. The measure of our society
over history is our fidelity to our principles.
We must remind our government and our people to remain
faithful to those principles or otherwise our society,
like so many in the past, will be swept on the
ash heap of history."

Finally Peter Costello tells us at the end of
his book:

"I have no doubt we can find the solutions that suit us,
provided we do not succumb to the siren calls of
demagogues, charlatons and ideologues."

"The achievements of the past decades have laid an
extraordinary foundation. Properly preserved and built on,
we now have opportunities we never had before in
Australia's history. The best years for our country are
still in front of us."

Foxy,

The simple truth of the matter is that Islam is not a religion it is a political movement which wears a religious cloak.

Dear Is Mise,

The simple truth?

Well you got the simple part right
but that's all.

Try again!

well at least the abc and its luvvies have got past it all being a budget distraction. Don't expect and apology.

No Foxy, you have missed the point.
Islam has made it quite clear;
When they achieve near 50% they will abolish parliament, delete all the
laws and impose sharia law.
It is a political declaration.
As Is Mise just wrote to you it is a political system that is a fascist
theodictatorship in construction with rules that allow no dissent against Allah's rules.
Atheists are killed if they reject Islam.

You seem to be totally unaware of its nature.

Dear Bazz,

Unfortunately I think some people are confusing
terrorism with Islam. ISIS is globally recognised as a
terrorist organisation. And Islam is the religious
faith of Muslims.

Do you have apropriate qualifications and knowledge
to tell Muslims what is or isn't consistent with
their religious beliefs?

How many of us are qualified to speak on behalf
of our own religious beliefs. How many journalists
are experts in this area to make this sort of analysis.

Very few - at a guess.

Well, Foxy. I've studied Islam at tertiary level, know and talk to many Muslims (both here and in India), I have a beautifully produced copy of the Qur'an in my bookshelves, courtesy of the Saudi Government, and I read it frequently.

So I'll say it again, Islam is a political movement with religious overtones.
Ponder this: Aisha was Muhammad's favourite wife, how could that be when Islam says that all wives must be treated equally?

Dear Is Mise,

I don't doubt what you're saying.

I also have attended lectures given by Prof.
Abdullah Saeed at Melbourne University.
I also have read many books on the subject,
including a six volume set explaining Islam.
However, I would still not be game to admit
that I know or understand the subject very well
or am some sort of an expert.

I would also refrain from using sweeping statements
and making generalisations about any religion and
I would separate terrorist organisations and
religious beliefs.

ISIS has been designated as a foreign terrorist
organisation in the US, the UK, Australia, Canada,
Indonesia and Saudi Arabia and has been described by
the Un's and Western and Middle Eastern media as a
terrorist group. An extremist organisation. If you
choose to equate this organisation with the faith of
Muslims - than that's your choice to do so.

Mine is to disagree with you.

To say that ISIS is not religious group is naive as they question their captured on their knowledge of the Koran and hand out copes to the captured women and girls and expect they learn it and teach it to the children, as they are to be the new wives of ISIL.

Dear Josephus,

It is an extremist group.
And many religions have those
as you know. Not all Jew are Zionists.

Foxy,

You are aware that you are setting yourself up as an expert (as usual). You are generalising and making sweeping statements too.

Where is ISIS getting all of that money and other support from? If ISIS really is the odd man out and a pariah shunned by the Muslim world, why then does it even exist?

You cited Prof Abdullah Saeed, however once again you neglected to mention that the good professor's readings and interpretation are alternative ones and far from fashionable or the accepted ones in the Muslim world. Even so, while we have the benefit of your familiarity with Islam and the professor's alternative readings, does that mean that he and 'moderate' Muslims in Australia shun Sharia and are opposed to its application in Australia?

Remembering too, that since you are an expert Peter Costello's speeches as well, you should be aware that he would NOT be supporting two laws in Australia, but just one, Australian law. So definitely NO Sharia law, although to our secular misfortune there are persistent reports of Sharia already being practiced in Australia, in marriage and divorce for example. Something you would abhor too, or then again, perhaps not?

If it quakes like a duck -->

It's Groucho and the Three stooges!

Foxy,

What do you think that this means,

Sahih International: "Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers." (Koran 2:223}

it seems fairly straight-forward.

In France, England, Sweden, Germany, Spain, Phillipines it is those horrible bigots that turns the muslims violent. Nothing to do with them all having one thing in common. At least the abc/sbs have been able to observe the bbc and other apologist for abhorrent acts and behaviour. They certainly know how to make crimminals the victim.

Dear Is Mise,

Yes it is pretty straight forward.

And, in the New Testament we find:

"Wives should regard their husbands as they regard
the Lord, since as Christ is head of the church and
serves the whole body, so is a husband the head of
his wife, and as the Church submits to Christ, so
should wives submit to their husbands in everything."
(Ephesians 5:22-23).

And -

"A man ...is the image of God and reflects God's
glory; but woman is the reflection of man's glory...
Man was not created for the sake of woman, but
woman was created for the sake of man."
(I Corinthians 11:7-9).

And an orthodox Jew is expected to say this prayer
every morning:

"Blessed art thou, oh Lord our God. King of the Universe,
that I was not born a gentile. Blessed art thou,
oh Lord our God, King of the Universe, that I was not
born a slave. Blessed art thou, oh Lord our God, King
of the Universe, that I was not born a woman."

Foxy,

While you are warmed up, what about answers to these questions?

- Where is ISIS getting all of that money and other support from?

- If ISIS really is the odd man out and a pariah shunned by the Muslim world, why then does it even exist?

- You cited Prof Abdullah Saeed, however once again you neglected to mention that the good professor's readings and interpretation are alternative ones and far from fashionable or the accepted ones in the Muslim world. Even so, while we have the benefit of your familiarity with Islam and the professor's alternative readings, does that mean that he and 'moderate' Muslims in Australia shun Sharia and are opposed to its application in Australia?

- There are persistent reports of Sharia already being practiced in Australia, in marriage and divorce for example. Something you would abhor too, or does multiculturalism imply that is OK and something you would support?

Touche Foxy :)

I think we can be certain in our belief that all religions were brought to us via male humans writing about their interpretation of what they imagine their male god said is so!
Isn't it handy for them that the religious books are so male centred?

Didn't there used to be a few female gods that humans worshipped?

I would prefer to go back to the mythical beliefs pre-religion where humans worshipped mother earth and all things natural...

Dear Suse,

It's interesting you bring up gods and
goddesses.

The Ashanti of West Africa,
who have a rape-free society, emphasize an earth
goddess, treat women with great respect, and admire
nurturant rather than aggressive traits.

On the other hand, the Gusei of Kenya, who have a
rape-prone society, emphasize male gods, treat women
as inferiors, and conceive of normal heterosexual
intercourse as an assault on women.

Interesting.

Yes indeed Foxy.

Sometimes I wonder if we had religions dedicated to goddesses, and a majority of female leaders in our world, whether we would living in a less aggressive, less conflict-ridden world?

Goodness knows, we couldn't do any worse than what is happening now...

Dear Suse,

It would be worth a try wouldn't it?

Things certainly couldn't be any worse.

Of could they, - remember Margaret Thatcher?

And I'm not too thrilled with Hilary Clinton.

Indeed Foxy, quite right but in Western democracies Christians have rethought those particular texts and it is only a fundamentalist few who adhere to them.
They are instructions issued by Paul and are not binding on Christians, and you really ought to have quoted more and not been so picky.

Koran 2:223 is however, we are assured, the word of Allah as revealed to Muhammad, so cannot be deviated from without committing grave sin.

Dear Is Mise,

Like most ideologies that justify social
inequality of various kinds, the ideology of
sexism is everywhere endorsed to some extent
by religion.

The Judeo-Christian religious tradition of the
West also seems to value men above women.
According to the Genesis story, God made man in
His own image, with women as a subsequent and
secondary act of creation. The ancient Israelites
were a strongly patriarchal people and even today
a male orthodox Jew is expected to say the prayer
that I cited earlier.

This bias was transmitted to Christianity, not
through Jesus, buth through the later teachings of
Saint Paul, who explicitly saw the inferior role of
women as part of a divinely ordained natural order.
Hence the citation I gave.

Even today many denominations reserve their priesthoods or
equivalent positions for men. Although, as women gain
greater equality elsewhere in society, they are slowly
achieving higher statuses in religion also.

We can hope that in the future this may also change
for all religions.

I agree Foxy.
I know many women would be happy with equal roles in their religion as the men have.
Maybe then, women could expect more equality in the rest of their lives.

With the female leaders, I was thinking more of Indira Gandhi, Benazir Bhutto or Golda Meir

Suseonline and Foxy,

However you studiously ignore the strong patriarchal ethos of Muslim family laws.

Anyhow, here is some music to go with that well-practiced act you two have going where you bounce off each other like fembot sumos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK7CVNyBALo

Yay Sharia, eh? You can't wait for the tents. So figure flattering. LOL

Suse,

Indira Gandhi? You've gotta be joking.

OTB "...with that well-practiced act you two have going where you bounce off each other like fembot sumos."
Well our discussions make more sense than the racist, bigoted, anti-female rants constantly regurgitated from you and all the other good ol' boys beach.

Is Mise, I wouldn't ever expect you to agree with anything I said, so I will leave it at that.

Dear Suse,

Yes. Your list of women is certainly impressive.
Especially Golda Meir.

My favourite of the current leaders is Angela Merkel.

@Suseonline, Friday, 26 September 2014 10:25:50 AM

You would say that of course. Still nothing about Islam and women.

Foxy is calling you for some more fembot sumo. Boing, boing, Boiiinnnnnggg. Enjoy!

More music, with a very polite introduction,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y-sw89qTY

Suse,

Why should I agree with your choice of Indira Gandhi? The woman was a racist, a bigot and opposed to democracy and she is only one of your choices.
She did nothing to rein in her son, Sanjay, who was all of the above and more with major human rights violations to his credit, including forced sterilization of humans.

Sanjay's death was greeted with jubilation and relief by many Indians.

Dear Is Mise,

No one is asking you to agree with anything.

We are supposedly having a discussion are we not.

And the view that is being presented is that it's
not only the religion of Islam that seems to value
men above women. But that the Judeo-Christian
religious traditions of the West also seem to value men
above women. And various citations were provided
for you to illustrate this point.

Foxy,

Suse said "Is Mise, I wouldn't ever expect you to agree with anything I said, so I will leave it at that"

Compre?

@Foxy, Friday, 26 September 2014 12:48:09 PM

It is fallacy to argue that Islam is somehow excused because other religions may have done something similar.

You studiously ignore the strong patriarchal ethos of Muslim family laws. Why?

Dear Is Mise,

Compre? Who me?

Oui, Monsieur.

And -

Si Signor.

cont'd ...

Dear Is Mise,

If you don't like Suse's opinion of you,
you can always improve. ;-)

'You studiously ignore the strong patriarchal ethos of Muslim family laws. Why? '

come on onthebeach you know if it does not fit Foxy's narrow narrative its not acceptable. Multi culturalism is wonderful even if those coming here hate us. The hating of girls getting an education and having to cover up is ignored. Much better to focus on those horrible white oppressors who civilised this country.

very easy to see what Australia is in for if it continues on the same path

http://adifferentperspective.org/the-rise-and-rise-of-islam/

Runner,
The author of that piece makes the all too familiar mistake of framing "political correctness" in abstract terms, PC is in every aspect equivalent to Islamic fundamentalism, there are both Liberal and Islamic Jihad movements afoot.
We're not overly troubled by either here but be under no illusion, the "Social Justice Warriors" in Europe are even more violent than the Islamists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ55KyNrO6A

'but be under no illusion, the "Social Justice Warriors" in Europe are even more violent than the Islamists: '

depends Jay which Islamist you are talking about. I watched a fair bit of your post and saw no pack rape or beheadings. No doubt the ideology of the far right and these 'justice warriors' are prepared to use violence. Certainly here in Australia you can be sure that the vast majority of political violence comes from the left (I suspect unionist and Greens supporters).

runner, "you know if it does not fit Foxy's narrow narrative its not acceptable"

A rut is by definition very narrow.

No, I don't seek to convince Foxy. Dozens far more astute and patient than I have tried and failed before. Foxy needs that tough Teflon skin, otherwise she might see evidence as others do of her leftist elitism and overarching Anglophobia. Better camo for her to pose as a 'Do Gooder' while taking every opportunity to sledge and sneer at 'white' Aussies and their heritage.

I just dropped in to see how this discussion was doing
and goodness me - what do I find?
More hurtful comments directed at me by someone
who does not know me (just wishes he did).

Obviously - a person who enjoys riling up total strangers.
His arsenal includes - baiting, blaming, and the same
patterns of unwarranted (talking about ruts) and
exaggerated criticism directed towards me. Most
unwelcome behaviour.

This stalker will go back in time until he finds
something I said, even though I may have posted
it sometime ago, and he'll take it out of context,
and use it with anything new I post.
He'll link back to
the old post in an effort to discredit me -
twisting my words, making
demeaning comments and then accusing me of "Leftist
elitism, (whatever that means to him)
of - over-arching Anglophobia, (members of my family
are from the UK), and even - "Do Gooder posing,"
sledging, and sneering at "white Aussies" and their
heritage. (sic). That is the behaviour of a Stalker.
(A retroactive Stalker). Who's got the cheek to talk
about "ruts" when he is obviously stuck in one, with
his own behaviour.

I have made it quite clear to this person
that I do not want to inter-act
with him. That most of the time I simply scroll past his
posts - so his addressing me is a waste of his time -
I am not interested in what he has to say.
But he still persists.

I'm becoming suspicious that he really likes me -

A lot!

I'm not anti-social -
I just don't like him!

To me he's the antithesis of everything this lovely
country of ours stand for.

Ah well, I shall continue to try to ignore him.

More of that ploy :(

You say it is about you, Foxy, because that gets you out of answering the simple questions put to you that you obviously have no answers for.

You poison the well against anyone who holds your opinions up to scrutiny.

BTT

Baiting, blaming, riling up total strangers,
and following a pattern of
unwarranted and exaggerated criticism,
twisting words, sluring, making demeaning comments
none of these qualify as

"holding up opinions to scrutiny."

As Margaret Thatcher once said -

"... if they attack one personally, it means
they have not a single political argument left."

In any case I shall repeat what I stated earlier.

1) I do not wish to inter-act with you.

2) What you have to say is of no interest to me.

3) Addressing posts to me is a waste of your time.

If you think this is some sort of a ploy. It's not.
If you don't understand what I am saying - ask the
moderator to explain it to you.

Nope. This forum doesn't say that I'm required to
talk to you.

Still more poisoning the well :(

BTT, where you had some simple questions put to you that you obviously have no answers for.

Poisoning the well?

Take a good look at your posting record.

To actively seek out actual people to
demean is beyond poisoning the well.
That's cyberbullying.

I can't answer questions in posts I choose
not to read.