Thanks again Paul for a well-reasoned post that is highly relevant to the discussion… in absolute contrast to Pericles.

It is interesting to gain your perspective of how others to whom you have spoken view this issue.

My conversations have certainly resulted in a quite different perspective.

I can’t help thinking that there are indeed many people out there who feel very similarly about this to me. Some of those to whom I have sporken harbor a great deal of fear about the apparent mismatch between Harris’ actions and his overall penalty (including all the non-court-imposed stuff like the revocation of awards and removal of his artwork). But they dare not speak out in any more than a one-on-one basis, because the atmosphere is just so hostile to it at the moment.

I think that if Harris was to die in prison, or at home after release in a few years time, and after Operation Yewtree and the overall ‘pedophile purge’ has been completed and we have a much better overall perspective of the whole sordid business, then the atmosphere will be much more amenable to a close examination of all the sorts of things that I have raised in this thread.

Only time will tell I guess.

One can only ask, why should they feel this way, Ludwig.

>>Some of those to whom I have sporken harbor a great deal of fear about the apparent mismatch between Harris’ actions and his overall penalty<<

You use the word "fear". What might they fear, Ludwig?

Let's recap. Your contention is...

>>It seems that the worst of it was a bit of groping, which really amounts to somewhat risqué activity, and nothing worse than that... I would strongly suggest should be, interpreted as nothing more than playful behaviour<<

Do they perhaps fear that they might be similarly judged?

Which is why I think it is entirely relevant to ask you whether you would feel similarly hard done by, if you perpetrated the same filthy acts.

Feel free to say "but of course I wouldn't even consider sticking my fingers in a young girl's vagina".

At which point it is equally reasonable to ask why, then, have you spent so much time and energy in defence of someone who did?

Ludwig, in another time and another place the actions of Harris may have been viewed differently, in fact they might have been seen as "normal" I understand in Ancient Greece pedophilia was somewhat accepted. Well, we are not in Ancient Greece now and our society's view of pedophilia is vastly different. That is not to say, that in the future society may again see it differently. An analogy, gay marriage, 50 years ago it would have been universally condemned, and those supporting it would hvae been out of step with social thinking of the time. Today the view on gay marriage is somewhat different with a far bigger section of society fully supporting the concept. By the way, I am proud to say I have attended a totally legal gay marriage, two friends of ours married in NZ recently. Some would condemn us as perverse for our attendance, but we found it a rather beautiful occasion.

Paul, I certainly have no problem with gay marriage. But yes, many do have a big issue with it…. and of course it would have been unthinkable a couple of decades ago, and remains unconscionable for many.

It is indeed quite fascinating how our values and perspectives change over time, and how they vary in different societies and cultures around the world.

It is interesting that corporal punishment in schools is frowned on if not completely banned these days, and yet it was standard practice in the 70s when I was at school.

The one and only time I copped it, which was directly as a result of the deputy headmaster not giving a stuffing hoot about who was guilty or who was the victim of bullying and just deciding to cane the both of us, bully and victim equally, was a seminal moment in my life, as I have mentioned a couple of times on this thread.

It is every bit as significant as the worst of Harris’ antics. It is every bit as irresponsible. And the perpetrator should have faced a penalty at least as severe.

And yet it received I think only one response, from Poirot, who effectively downplayed it. I would have thought that Poirot, more so than anyone else, would have appreciated the significance of this sort of thing. But there you go.

There are all manner of things out there which can have an enormous effect on children. Those who have contributed to this thread can no doubt appreciate some of them. But other things go completely unrecognised. The sort of stuff that Harris got up to is held up as being way more serious than this other stuff. Well sorry, but in the bigger scheme of things, it isn’t more serious than many other things, for which perpetrators never get brought to account for.

<< Thinking back now, I should have known that he wouldn't have been charged if the authorities had not had considerable evidence of his wrongdoings. >>

Hold on Poirot, what about those that have been charged under Operation Yewtree and then aquitted.. and all those accused that were then not charged?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yewtree

< Stephen Fry criticised the operation, pointing out that fewer than half of those accused at the time had been found guilty, and called for tougher laws to prevent false sex abuse allegations. >

Poirot, you are continuing to make polarised statements just as strongly as ever:

<< You are the one who is projecting all kinds of fantasy scenarios and labling them "Possibilities" >>

And this interesting:

<< I have not claimed "neutrality" on Harris… >>

Really? Well… then what ARE you claiming? And how can you be so critical of me for apparently not being neutral if you are consciously and deliberately not being neutral??

Ludwig,

We are discussing the trial and conviction of Harris.

I'm not required to be bloody "neutral".

You are playing us for bunnies by pretending to be neutral,

You are not neutral...you think poor Rolf was hard done by.

And you have hopped about continuously on this thread raising dubious scenarios and points as if any of them had a leg to stand on under the laws of most of the Western world.

You appear to think touching up young girls is just fine...sorry but the law says differently.

End of story.

If evidence had come to light that exonerated him, then I'd be right behind him.

It would have had to have been overwhelming because according to him "They were 'all' making it up".

No remorse, no nothing, just a ditty in the witness box and blanket denial.

What a man!

Shame on him!