Just putting the question out there, with the current national ecomonic situation. Isn't it time we did the responsible thing and had a proper discussion, not an inhouse government slinging match on who's fault it is with regards to our current financial situation, all that does is waste more of our taxes on politians wages with many wasted hours of political argee-bargee, we don't need more politics and point scoring we need real solutions.
Lets talk about!
"Are THREE levels of government really required and affordable?"
Can we do it better and simplier?
I say YES !

THE STATES GAVE UP..LEGISLATIVE POWERS AT FEDERATION
THEY ARE..acting unlawfully..in so many ways..but the idealgovt would hold local assets/locally..under a federal FINANCE MODEL..and states a bureaucracy that provides over sight accounting and coordination

all state asset and debt become federal debt..and minsters oversee the bureaucracy[ALL THE state legislature and different level BULLDUST MUST GO...even big councils need be bought to heel

[i see govt as best run from schools[where the school board effectively acts as council too

[divide the commonwealth into school admin areas
ditch states..and recover the looted []privatized]..assets
then its big users pay...no acces fees..or service charges/no victim no crime/stap taxing wages as if income..income insnot wage[we dont have wages tax]..only income tax..re nationalize the federal reserve and mint..get back the GOLD AND SILVER THE FED LEASED TO ITS MATES[]WHO SOLD THE LEASED SILVER AND GOLD]

CUT THE WAGES OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND POLITICIANS
base their pension/on the same pension the rest of us get
and public servants insider trading on cash cow quango grants /you going to get yours...nest feathering is official malfeasance[a jailable crIME]..IN A JUST WORLD WHERE all crime is unlawfull/or maybe simply policed..no one is watcHING THE SE4RVANTS GET RICH FROM PUBLIC RIPOFFS AND MORALIZATION AND NICE FAT INVESTMENTS TRUSTS ITS CRIMINAL

THEN THERE IS THE DEBASEMENT..OF THE QUEENS COIN[HIGH TREASON]

Each level of government will fight tooth and nail to protect there existence.

Most so called public servants are paid higher wages and better conditions than they could hope to get from private industry if they would even consider employing them.

Australia is definitely over governed but which one should go?

I would get rid of State governments but then you leave yourself open to bureaucrats from Canberra you do not know about real conditions outside of there isolated cocooned Canberra.

Good idea, let's get rid of The Federal government and all State governments. Problem solved. Hang on, we'll then have hundreds of local governments ... let's get rid of them too.

Wow, Australia will then be soooooooooo ideologically correct. Just think about it, no more arguing politiicans on fat salaries, no more political red tape, no more free pollie allowances to bankrupt our starving nation, no more dole bludgers and unwed mothers taking away our tax free superannuation $$$$$$$$ birthright.

What we can do is appoint a benevolent dictator.... I'd suggest the Pope. He knows what it's like to use little money prudently, after all the Catholic Church runs on a pittance (just like Jesus wanted)and is certainly not rich with BILLIONS of SSSSSSS in assets and real estate. Yep, the Pope will do. We can make Catholicism our national religion (with only tiny jail sentences for resisters .... those bloody lefties and greenies).

I'd also suggest that the Pope appoint the following Cabinet:

Minister for religion and burning witches ...One Under God

Minister for beheading all immigrants, and the White Australia Policy ... a shared portfolio between Rehctub and Ludwig

Minister for finances ... Hasbeen (let the dole lefties starve)

Minister for funerals ... Individual (he'd love to cremate those dole bludgers/lefties

Minister for morals and feeding the rich/starving the poor ... Runner

Minister for women ... Shadow Minister (hey Foxy stop laughing)

With the Pope and these small government/no red tape professionals, Australia will no doubt prosper.

God bless Australia and our favourite Cardinal, the children's friend.... George Pell.

I liked your new ministry Nohj : )
Mind you, I would have put Jay as Minister for White Australia Policy, given his preference for using the word "white" in almost all of his posts!

I think that a country as successful and as desirable as Australia should just keep the Government system as it is though.

My only change would be less numbers of local government departments, because we have enough problems with the federal and state governments to keep us going!

Nhoj. I to like you ministry, but may I suggest a position be found for chrisgaff1000, as Minister for Justice, I find Chris one of the leading forumites on that score. His simplistic approach is mind boggling, as an ex copper, Chris is well experienced at "dishing out justice" particularly to those "undesirables elements of society" having been a past exponent at throwing gays into the Parramatta River, what more qualification could you require.
I also suggest a position in such a cabinet of luminaries be found for onthebeach. Beach would make an excellent Minister for Progressive Thinking, having yet to entertain a progressive thought ever, so therefore when he does have on it should be a... "bobby dazzler", I can hardly contain my excitement.

Suse. me thinks you may misjudge Jay somewhat on this color thing of his, I do believe Jay's color concerns are not based on race so much, but rather on a fervent desire to make "house painting simpler". In Jay's ideal Australia the Dulux color chart will consists of but one color, WHITE! Jay believes by painting all the house WHITE it will not clash with the homogenous WHITE skin tones of the total population. I ask, now how is the racists?

Look out the 'Usual Suspects' are not known for their sense of humor. A quote from The Little Green Pixie.

getting back to the reality..its that their overpaid..
AND MUCH TOO COMFORTABLE JOINING THE BUSINESS OF lobby exploitation..via franchised COLONISATION..
[complicit reasoners/doing treason..codifying compulsory merchantilism..for bailing out capitalistic merchants exploiting the business of state..into commerce..commercialism fiat.E

[REVENUE RAISING VIA SIN TAXS../FEES CHARGES LICENSES/REGISTRATIONS\lobbied consultation/then facile facilitation and thus by govt-servant facilitation..into biased largess [by grant]]...WITH self SERVING/FOR PROFIT..THE FRANCHISED business-LOBBY...and..THEN SELECTIVELY EXPLOITING THE IGNORANCE of the sheeple

[we have actually allowed them to dumb down education
AND COMPULSIVE CITIZENSHIP..into..GREED...unmet-NEED/dis-SERVICE..INTO COMMERCE..[or punitive revenue raising....enforce/S by the propaganda sPIN..SLICK WORDS AND MALUABLE MEAning..and pre-programed mind CONTROL..

yep aussie merchantilsm..mate..in your in the layer where the scum mixes freely with the cream..you too could declare out loud..or scream..aussie revenue raising..its Great...mate..but its time to reign the public servants in/they know too well how to feather their nests

lest we forgeT..they alone know the codes
that give some 55 thousand dollar pension/and cut others off at the kneews/because they cant prove THEIR STATE CREATED id[

thats a thing govt is there to provide/...not..demand...THEN PRESENT THE LACK OF ID AS A WAY OF SLOW KILLING ME...3 years 3 months..govt has declared war on me personally..[by what right?]..how many of me has the state slow killed?

the state is only as good as its public service
and we dont get service..we get sin taxes...i spit on your gore-puss..war based collimation systematized goverenance...you will find hell to your liking..there..you reap the seeds your life has sown..[that you caused to be done..you own..

long may you groan/you bought the pain..upon your own...curses live longer than blessings.[a pox on all ya houses...but as one has to die..[or we die from your burdens]..THEY ARE OUR KARMA/AND WE SHALL BE THEIRS.

FOR NOW I FEEL NO PAIN FROM THE TEETH REDLANDS DENTAL HOSPITAL MUTILATED DELIBERATELY../UNDER THE GUIZE OF TEETH CLEANINBUT THATS because..its not my pain..you lot caused it..

think hard about how you going to begin fixing it

G.

If we just had one Government we would still have the same level of administration to achieve the same level of work. The current system allows us to remove administrations at different levels we do not think are doing the job.

One of the problems is that for the State Governments to provide the services they are responsible for health, education etc, big ticket items, they are either too small like Tasmania or they have inadequate revenue raising capabilities. The States lost their financial independence long ago when they hand their income taxing rights over to the Federal Government.
As for Local Government, many are nothing more than basket cases, too small, too inefficient to be run professionally. Here in NSW we have been having a long, long debate about amalgamation of local councils, with a small amount of rationality in the debate, and a huge amount of political clap trap dominating the discussion, from all sides of politics.

I live Council area in NSW with three administration offices because the area is large and has three developing city areas. Reducing Councils does not reduce administration as each Administration needs the same administrative offices as one large Council. One Mayor covers the three and rates are paid to the head office. Small local Councils are most preferable as they see local needs.

I basically agree with Suse. The last thing I would want would to be governed by a government some thousands of kilometers away, controlled by the numbers in 3 cities.

We should get councils back to core duties, & get them the hell out of things they are not qualified to do, & reduce their staffing by 3/4. Roads, sewage & waste are enough for them.

I don't think there is any chance, under any system, governments can pay for everything out lefties believes it should, without going broke or taxing all our income away.

Yep the communist model, which proved so disastrous elsewhere won't work here, even is introduced stealthily.

OK thoughts please
By 2018, all the nations local council boundaries are set.
The next federal election there is no two party preferred, share your votes its first past the post gets the job.
All revenue collected dispersed evenly inline with local council population, sure some twiking will need to go on, but I sure the duplication and waste will be scrutinised.
No more spending up the saving from the previous budget to ensure you get your full allowance of funds which goes on willy nilly.
The local government will control there own local welfare issues the national government will control defence, federal laws, maybe GST, infrasturcture, roads, education standards.

Your thoughts how are we going got them creative juicies working

Josephus, there is some truth in what you say <<small local Councils are most preferable as they see local needs.>>, but don't forget local councils are very much constrained by the Local Government Act and the Minister has a great deal of authority. I also find local councils too often are under party political influence, particularly on contentious issues of development. Amalgamation of councils in Sydney is not new, from small local suburban councils, who in the past were concerned only with the three R's, roads, rates and rubbish to larger ones with a community expectation that they will provide far more services than they once did.

step one
any other party loyalty..is treason[parties cannot be held accountable/yet hold all the power..huh?]party loyalty is treason

colluding to decieve
colluding for personal gain
[Party loyalists are loyal to THE DEAD..IDEAL..THAT IS MUCH LIKE HELL
WITH THEM POORING OUT THEIR WARATH..UPON US THEIR SLAVES...NEUTERD AND SERF..domesticated zombies./docile\.able to follow command.[the ideal soviat-party loyalist]..the 'team player'..taking one for the giffTer..griffeN...WHO OWNS THESE REALMS..IN THE UPper hell.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle1.m3u
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16376&page=1

Local needs spot on.
Less waste from duplication has my vote.
National government looks after, police, defence, age pensions, communications, foreign affairs, immigration, infrastucture, the courts, environment, sure there will be more.

The local government will control, waste, water, employment, education (at national standards), health, welfare coupons, work for welfare campaigns, I'm sure there is heaps more.

Do we really need an everlasting shadow government and over paid state governments with the thousands of public servent hanger-oners squeezing every last dollar they can out of our, 'in there eyes' evergreen money tree that is beginning to show signs of root rot on the lawns of our states and national capital.

Yes rawlo, there is a great deal that needs streamlining between State & Commonwealth, which could save us a fortune. However while unions have so much, [far too much] say, it will never be.

I can't agree with expanding council rolls, it sounds too much like the mostly dysfunctional UK model. Councils are the most corrupt, dysfunctional, incompetent level of government. They need reducing not expanding.

It is far too easy for a clique to get control, & do a lot of damage, before being dismissed. Hell just a quick look at the stupidity & corruption with Clover Moore, & the Sydney council, or the Marrickville council, should stop that idea damn quickly.

The same with the Tasmanian, & ATC governments. Just a large council size really. With minor parties with the balance of power you have total catastrophe.

If you want to drop one level, make it commonwealth. Then WA & Queensland could stop paying for South Oz & Tasmania fiascos, & Canberra could fade to a ghost town, full of 4 legged sheep, as it should always have been.

Firstly we need to drop the methods and procedure either good or bad from the past, as the system we creat will drop the middle governance, spread the load across the local and national governments.
As from our past experiences a referendum is not the way to go and the states grovling politians only the small cream of the crop will probably be voted into the local or national governments.
The difference between the state government sorting through the nations regional council issues or either the national or local government is quite frankly irrellevent, I'm sure once in place as usual a tweek now and then will be required.
Thereafter once settled the haggling of which portfolios go to which government, the rest is a matter of the members just doing what there paid for.
Yeah I know it sounds ridiculous but anything worth doing won't always be easy and not all believe it or not government employees are self scented lying thieveing mongrels :-)

Do we need three levels of government?

The web addresses below highlight the issue.
Who is to blame for the over staffing of our state and federal governments, possibly to late to make them accountable, to late to change the past but the future is something we can write, to correct the mistakes of the passed.
How long do we accept the mass waste of taxpayer funds, before we redirect and rebuild our levels of government.
Using the numbers from both levels of government (from the web addresses below), lets say to be fair as far back as 2010;

62000 employees made redundant, conservetively earning $75 000 pa (guess-tamation)

62000 x $75000 = $4,650,000,000.00
OK lets just say, I've got it wrong what figure would be acceptable, $4 billion - $3 billion, how about $2 billion, again unacceptable waste of tax payer dollars
It would appear at this moment we have select the very best PUBLIC SERVENTS, to take our country into the future, after all these recent job cuts, now would be the best time to look seriously at this prospect, with possibly more savings to come after the duplication is no more.

Who needs THREE (3) levels of government, not Australia.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/queensland-health-takes-brunt-of-redundancies-20120911-25pom.html

http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/07/10/public-service-cuts-where-the-axe-has-fallen/

Dear rawlo,

This is my stock answer whenever this issue is raised.

Every 3-4 years I get 5 chances to have a say in the way I am governed and by whom.

1. Council elections
2. State lower House
3. State Upper house
4. Federal Lower House
5. Federal Upper House

The fact that the Australia people often vote in those of a different political persuasion federally compared to the states indicates that they appreciate the checks on power that this arrangement provides. The same applies for the differences in voting patterns between the upper and lower houses.

As we do not have a Swiss system of citizen initiated referendums these 5 voting opportunities are the only crack we get at participatory democracy every 4 years. Which ones are you proposing to deprive me and my fellow citizens of? Or to cut to the chase are you going to diminish it by 20 or 40%?

Nhoj, thanks for the compliment, although I would prefer to think of my self as a candidate for a 'right Australia' rather than white Australia as I have no bone with anyone who contributes and, at least try's to assimilate, not bring their garbage and try to force it on us.

As for immigrants, it's the illegals and this who follow that hateful religion that I dislike, no others.

Its not about not having a choice whos in the big chair its about the waste in duplicating the same chairs over and over again not throug buckets and buckets of money at the same thing from different angles by different chai Supporting the previous thread posted,
RE: Do we need three levels of government?

The web addresses below highlight the issue, who is to blame for the over staffing of our state and federal governments, to late to make them accountable, to late to change the past but the future is something we can write, to correct the mistakes of the passed.
How long do we accept the mass waste of taxpayer funds, before we redirect and rebuild our levels of government.
It would appear at this moment we would I hope have select the very best public servents to take our country into the future, after all these recent job cuts now would be the best time to look seriously at this prospect, with possibly more savings to come after the duplication is no more.

Who needs THREE (3) levels of government, not Australia

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/queensland-health-takes-brunt-of-redundancies-20120911-25pom.html

http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/07/10/public-service-cuts-where-the-axe-has-fallen/

Sorry about previous post my tablets reacting and must be angry with the waste as well

To merely do away with State representatives would push all State bureaucrats into the Federal Government to manage current State portfolio's. People in Broome WA have different needs to people in Balmain NSW. Both cannot be properly managed from Canberra. Take transport for instance The WA Government can better manage transport in Broome than one representative from the area in Canberra being serviced by a bunch of Canberra bureaucrats.
We need local needs met from government closer at hand. Australia is primarily a Federation of States

Hmmm, a Federal government, 6 state and one territory government.
We have generated a very Complex Society plus many councils.

In a complex society every step you take to try and cope with the
strains that occur because of the complexity reduces your marginal
economic gains and finally these reducing gains cause the society to collapse.

Interestingly that is what happened to the Roman Empire.
Increasing our societies complexity by trying to cope with global
warming, protecting our borders, improving our supply of resources
and energy are interesting echos of the collapse of Rome.

How fascinating. The marginal gains argument is exactly like the
peak oil argument about Energy Return on Energy Invested. Ha !

Sure massive concept to wrap the mind around, so was the great wall, pyramids, sydney harbour tunnel etc.
How do you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time :-)
I would expect the local councils to take on a more important roll within their immediate area and communicate with the local council boarding to work towards a better outcome for the region.
The exceptional state politians will be rolled either into the national or local governments, leaving the 'also-rans', unwanted leach like politians to move into the private sector and too really find out what happens when, you coast along not being overly concerned about how and where the company finances are utilised.
That doesn't mean going to the 'back bench', more like the park bench.

Further reading of Collapse of Complex Societies finds that Rome
accepted Barbarians as citizens, increased the number of people on
the dole to the point where there were more accepting food and support
from the state than were paying taxes.
Taxes became crippling and farmers walked off the land.
Rome devalued the currency by debasing the currency, otherwise known as "Quantitative Easing".

Who is more likely to be our Romulus Augustulus ?

Tony Abbott or Bill Shorton ?
Joe Hockey or Wayne Swan ?

some further concidERATIONS.
the bigger global picture..must not impoverish/NOR ENRich

[thats regarding a comment i just read about usa war boom..era
SAYING ITS GREAT PRODUCTIVITY/INthe face of all that global destruction..pervets govt..as well as the meaning of production.

THIS GUY KNOWS HIS STUFF
it used to be his job/till he saw the light
[ie the war machine serving death..TYING THE LIVING TO SERVING DEAD DEbt bets.
http://investmentwatchblog.com/what-you-are-not-being-told-about-the-invasion-of-america/
http://www.intellihub.com/nuclear-workers-government-waiting-us-die-avoid-medical-costs/

THERE REALLY ARE NATION STATE SIZE CORPERATIONS
SEEKING to end humanity/not just war bUT..murder
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=581_1403181437




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Paul Singer, the billionaire hedge fund manager, has claimed victory in a lawsuit to force Argentina to fork out almost 17 times more than he paid to buy bonds issued by the country.

After Argentina’s economy crashed in 2001 and it defaulted on $80 billion in bonds, Singer’s Elliott Capital Management paid $49 million to buy $220 million in Argentine debt. =>>

<,..Over the last 13 years, the value of these bonds has risen to $832 million which Singer wants paid off in full.>>

remember[if there really is a lAWFULL DEBT
AND IF THAT DEBT ISNT/THATS PROCEEDS OF CRIME*

PLUS/ITS YOUR SUPER WHO LOST THE BIG BUCKS

<<.. Singer has been joined by several other Wall Street speculators such as Aurelius Capital Management and Blue Angel who together hold a total of $1.3 billion in Argentine debt.

In the meantime, after extensive negotiations, almost all other holders of Argentina’s total $93 billion in debt agreed to forgive as much as 70 percent of what they were owed, recognizing that the country was in dire financial straits.>>

ya gotta love/how odious debt/just KEEPS ON TAKING[LONG AFTER THE BORROWED FUNDS ARE IN SWTSERLAND/ZURIC AMSTERDAM DUBLIn..etc etc etc

its just moraly corrupt/HOW Can courts judge countries
PROVE REAl money was lent[ie most debt is creaTed/first/that created the money[it wasnt other money lent/but new money/THEIR PROMISE TO REPAT..created*

SOMEONES SIGNATURE CREATED THE debt/their odious debt
[its usually AN EXCUSE TO LOOT ASSETS/LIKE PARKS.OR WATER RIGHTS/ITS TIME WE WERNT AT WHIM OF BIG money

the game is corrUPT

I recently read the book, The Collapse of Complex Societies.
It certainly points up the danger of too much government.

Gail Tverberg has just recently posted an article, that I am sure many of
you will find interesting on this subject, and the part energy plays in the scheme of things.

http://tinyurl.com/ocr8r4c

The reasoning in Gail's article would be very hard to deny.