What you have effectively just said Pericles is:

“Yes Ludwig you are right. The enormous economic growth that we have seen in the last twenty or so years is at stark odds with the fact that we are now a very long way behind with basic infrastructure and services, and have barely achieved anything regarding unemployment, homelessness, the old-age pension or other safety nets, or with the overall cost of living and quality of life. Yes, there is obviously something very very wrong here. There is something fundamentally askew with the way GDP is defined if it can indicate that we have been doing very well economically for a long time, while in real terms the situation is obviously extremely different.”

The fact that you won’t even broach this particular point, when pressed time and time again to do so, says crystal clearly that you can’t address it. You can’t uphold the virtues of GDP when presented with the real-world comparisons.

Well Pericles, I guess that’s it. I guess we’ve reached the end of this discussion. I don’t see how it can progress if you are going to continue to totally sidestep this critically important issue.

As many have said to you on OLO over the years, there is something fundamentally wrong with your thinking regarding economic growth, population growth and sustainability.

Perhaps it is time for you to reflect on this. Think about how many posters have broadly agreed and how many have taken issue with you.

I do this all the time as a matter of course. I was pleasantly surprised when I first came to OLO as to how many people broadly agreed with me and continue to do so.

Gee, Ludwig, you have just taken the concept of verballing to an entirely new level.

>>What you have effectively just said Pericles is:<< et seq.

Over a hundred words, all written by your good self, that you somehow contrive to attribute to me. An excellent achievement!

>>You can’t uphold the virtues of GDP when presented with the real-world comparisons.<<

You have that entirely the wrong way round. It is you who put forward the idea that our economy is crumbling around us, without providing the slightest scrap of evidence outside your own, birding- and surfing-influenced opinion.

For my part, I have pointed out that all the measurements that economists make have been moving upwards, indicating increasing prosperity for all.I have also made the point, repeatedly, that a reversal of these numbers would indicate bad times. On no occasion have you cared to show how these measurements indicate anything other than that which they show: higher GDP = good, lower GDP= bad.

>>Perhaps it is time for you to reflect on this. Think about how many posters have broadly agreed and how many have taken issue with you.<<

Perhaps their level of understanding of economics matches your own, Ludwig, but I neither know nor care. I do try to address the more articulate of them, out of courtesy, and to help increase their ability to follow economic argument. But the simple fact that they have different opinions is completely meaningless.

After all, it might just be the case that only those who lack understanding, choose to dispute the logic. The rest just nod their head, and move on.

Just possible, don't you think.

And still there is no comment about the discrepancy between the enormous increases in GDP and in the size of our economic turnover that we have seen for many years now, and the fact that we remain a very long way behind a desired level of infrastructure, services, and just about all other quality-of-life factors, in fact no better than had in ~1980.

Pericles, you contradict yourself enormously: You say I have verballed you… and then you prove that what I said that you had effectively said is indeed true!!

BTW, that’s not verballing. I said that you effectively said such and such… which is very different your past verballings of me where you have said in hard and fast terms that I have said something that I haven’t or that I hold a view that I don’t.

Come on, we’ve discussed ‘verballing’ on a previous thread. You really are in no position to accuse me of verballing you.

Now how’s this for a classic piece of Pericles verballing:

<< It is you who put forward the idea that our economy is crumbling around us… >>

Show me where I have ever said that our economy is crumbling around us. What I am saying is that there are no real signs of improvement in most of the things that really matter, ie: no real increase in prosperity for all the massive increases in economic turnover that we have had over the last ~30 years.

<< Perhaps their level of understanding of economics matches your own, Ludwig… >>

You are talking about Divergence and many other posters on OLO, who clearly have a much more holistic view of economics than you do.

I am very pleased to have the level of knowledge about economics that I have, compared to the level you have, thankyou very much.

BTW, you’ve got another fallacy about me embedded in your cranium, which has just come out of nowhere. I don’t surf. Never have. But as for birding. Yes indeed, I am right into that! Both the feathered variety and the bikini variety! {{ :>)

But Ludwig, as convincing as your opinion may be to you, it is still only your opinion.

>>And still there is no comment about the discrepancy between the enormous increases in GDP and in the size of our economic turnover that we have seen for many years now, and the fact that we remain a very long way behind a desired level of infrastructure, services, and just about all other quality-of-life factors, in fact no better than had in ~1980.<<

You provide no tangible evidence of this view (whereas I have GDP to back up my argument that we are increasingly prosperous), instead you just complain that everything somehow has fallen apart.

And this is pure comedy:

>>Show me where I have ever said that our economy is crumbling around us.<<

I've only picked two samples, and only from this thread. But there are many others...

>>...we’ve got major issues with the Federal budget, with infrastructure, with services like health and education, major environmental issues<<

>>...we have a Federal budget ‘crisis’, or a humungous need for infrastructure expenditure or declining benefits for pensioners and other welfare recipients or the prospect of increasing prices for just about everything or a forthcoming increase in GST<<

...and so on ad naus.

>>I am very pleased to have the level of knowledge about economics that I have<<

And I'm glad I'm not a Gamma.

Pericles, you seem to have a reasonable knowledge of conventional economics, which includes a few ‘givens’, such as: all growth is good, growth automatically equals prosperity, and the definition of GDP is just fine thankyou very much.

The great problem is that when you see mismatches between this conventional thinking (I won’t call it wisdom) and what is happening in the real world, you fall back on what you know as a student of economics, rather than looking more closely at the real-world happenings. You won’t even consider pondering that something could be wrong with the conventional economic methodology, let alone seeking to find out what it is.

Rather than going anywhere near exploring what the problems might be with conventional economic dogma, you seem to just dig your heels in and say something like; “she’s all good mate, the real world’s doin just fine, and its becoming progressively more prosperous. GDP tells us so.”

Really, your whole argument on this thread is so fundamentally flawed right at the most fundamental level!!

If you are not willing to set aside your completely unquestioning worship of GDP and economic growth and have a good close look at them, then you are not going to find the path to the truth in this issue!!

Bottom line – what GDP has been telling us for many years is at STARK odds with what is happening in our society in terms of what continuous high economic growth is supposed to provide.

You can’t deny that. So you need to have a good hard look at why it is so. And the answer lies with all the things that I have said about the vagaries of GDP and continuous economic growth that is largely predicated on high population growth.

continued

I have never said that our economy is crumbling around us.

Those two quotes do not support your assertion that I have said this. They support my assertion that the rapid economic growth that we have had for many years has NOT led to improvements in infrastructure and services. And that we are now a long way behind with these things, probably further than we were 30 years ago. Our economy is not crumbling around us…..yet.

See Pericles, you have this terrible habit of polarising things; you project some things that I say to the end of the spectrum, or at least to a much worse position than what I have stated. You’ve always done this.

Please endeavour to represent me properly when you say that I have said something, and if you are not sure then don’t do it, or seek clarification first.