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The Forum > General Discussion > Small scale high quality manufacturing

Small scale high quality manufacturing

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Having a small population we can't have big, mass-production manufacturing, that seems clear.

But what about lots of small factories, many of them housed in abandoned car factories and each employing 10-20 highly skilled workers, making high quality products in small quantities for export? Ceramics, stained glass, quality furniture, office furniture, quality paper, small printing presses, glass ware, carpets and rugs, light fittings, watches, on and on it goes.

All made with high tech equipment, not hand made.

OK, pricey, and it would take years to build up the skills base, but it could create a longterm export industry. We have 2 million small businesses, why can't, say, 50,000 of them be export oriented manufacturing, each small but collectively big?

Government would have to find the money for training, to import skilled workers, and to buy the equipment, but once up and running it could go on for ever. Clem Gorman
Posted by clem gorman, Tuesday, 11 March 2014 4:13:54 PM
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In general that's a great idea, however:

1) In the long term there won't be anyone to export to.
2) In the long term there won't be anyone outside Australia to maintain/replace the high-tech components of the machinery.

We can and do produce electronic equipment in Australia, but if it's on the high-end depending on extremely high-density nano silicon technology that can only be produced in absolute vacuum, then only few countries can produce it and Australia would not be among them.

So lets not think about export, but about producing what we need once the rest of the world jumps over the cliff and lets make sure that we can also produce all the components of the machinery itself within Australia.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 1:04:40 AM
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dear cLEM..ITS A NICE IDEA..concept..but it wont work..the second they are required..to pay rent..and pay other..aND PAY/UP FRONT ETC..THE DEBt LOAD KILLS ANYTHING..[forgive my computer dying]..for too long govt has seen the poor as an endless tax cash cow/so much so our kids are burdened with ever increasing debt loads/even our business ARE loaded with debt/bedt produced by the least productive/biggest value thieving BURDEN.. the bankers..or rather them debaiTng the value from the queens coin[high TREASON]

THOSE scum..who stole goVTS RIGHT TO ISSUE MONEY FROM THE PEOPLE
that gave us this huge tax burden/they only hope to hyper inflate away..when inflation is the problem[when the fed reserve got privatized..a dollar was a unit measurE OF SILVER/the stored VALUE/BUT the money changers/INDUSTRY SMELTED THE VALUE INTO MERDE

RUNNER IS RIGHT..
id say get a reaL job..IF YOU CAN..BUT DONT EXPECT PAYMENT..becaUSE THE DREAMERS Made this nightmare..THEY WANTED WORK FORCE CASUALISATION

they wanted slaves that pay tax on wages/the thinkers dreamed up this mess/industry..cant fix it..hell is full of stuff we wanted..we want it only to TRASH it..AND GET the next junk latest/better value added...improved..consumable..the future will be diy/cause you cant afford others doING IT BADLY..FOR WHAT..SWEET FA..

WORK FROM CRADLE TO early grave/do as your told/pay me/pay me pay me..welcome to capitalist hell..they gave us EVERYTHING THEY TOLD US WE WANTED...IT ONLY ENSLAVED US INTO ETERNAL DEBT.
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 5:35:26 AM
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I was a sales rep for a small manufacturing company we employed 11 factory workers 2 office staff 1 delivery driver and 3 sales reps to cover N.S.W. However other companies began producing similar products and they found it hard to compete so they began to import from China; so for us to stay in business we had to reduce our factory staff to 1 to produce specialist products and retain our higher paid reps and management. Good idea but what products can Australia produce that the Chinese cannot copy.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 8:05:18 AM
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There speaks someone who has never started a business in Australia, clem gorman.

>>But what about lots of small factories, many of them housed in abandoned car factories and each employing 10-20 highly skilled workers, making high quality products in small quantities for export?<<

For every one incentive to create a company - say, the appearance of a niche market in which profits are possible - there are ten disincentives. These range from the availability of start-up capital (non-existent), the pain of borrowing from a Bank (they want you to mortgage your home to them), the agony of workplace legislation, health'n'safety, GST, FBT, Super, payroll tax etc. and the complete lack of protection for the employer against malevolent staff (oh, oh, I've been bullied) - the list is extensive.

The day the government makes it attractive to start any business in Australia - let alone one that is "housed in abandoned car factories", I will dance naked down George Street.

(Sorry, that might itself act as a disincentive. Let's just say, I'll be pleasantly surprised)

Incidentally, just for the record, I have started a total of five companies over the past fifteen years, so I know intimately whereof I speak...
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 8:45:03 AM
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pericules..<<..Incidentally, just for the record, I have started a total of five companies over the past fifteen years, so I know intimately whereof I speak>>

funny aBOUT THAT..ME TOO..IT SEEMS A MID LIFE THING
i see the retiresees getting their cash payoffs..getting sucked into many a grand sceme..to takeway..their cash/their savings..their investments etc

those whith the cash..need to say thanks.and stop trying for 'the big one'..and enjoy the cash..instead of letting bankers enjoy it for them

so what if it dont get intrest
if you got cash in hand..you know bankers cant bail it into worthless shares in broke banks..im notinG THE NUMBER OF CLOSED BUSINESS..THIS MEANS LANDLORDS NOT GETTING RENT..THIS MEANS A GLUT IS ON THE WAY..AS INVESTERS TRY TO GET SOMETHING/BACK....if you got the cash..you have the cash..iF THE BANKER..has your cash..he thinks its his.

its just how human nature goes
retirees shouldnt be allowed one single cash withdrawel/till we see how ya spent the last one..[it may seem harsh..but you can learn from the same mistakes for half the loss.4 out of 5 fail..its just how it goes/the closed shop is a sign..the owner of the business is soon to loose his house...[even co-ops fail..if yoUR USING BORROWED CASH..it will fail/i only ever invEST CASH ON HAND.

GOVT REVENUE RAISING MEANS YOU WILL GO BROKE
if not this year..then next year[if you get an offer/take it/later you can buy it back for one third...]..damm..its aL SO negaTIVE..

BUT JUST CAUSE YOU CAN MAKE IT..who can afford to buy it.
AND THATS WHERE ANY SCEME WILL FAIL

RE GM.. i would retain it as a repair restoration center
the future will be more restoring things than building them from scratch
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 9:52:01 AM
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Pericles,

Thou speakest truth!

I have seen many small businesses that had the potential to expand chose not to do so when the disincentives, mostly Government inspired, were weighed against the incentives and the dis side won by a large margin.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 9:56:24 AM
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Clems plan is fine but it is based on a "Business as Usual" era.
Already it is too late to start up an export enterprise as we are at
the end of that era. We need to increase our technical base and Tafe
is the key to being able to do that.
The Hornsby Tafe is closing its arts courses and there is an uproar going on about it.

If the arts courses never reappeared I doubt we would miss them, but
what we did miss was the loss a few years back of the electrical courses.
The winding down of the various electrical courses is having an adverse effect on many employers.

There is a lack of electrical workers of all levels but the training
is not available. One company I know of asked me if there was a member
of the local amateur radio club looking for a job.
At that time, a couple of years ago, he was complaining of TAFE closing courses.
At that time he employed a couple of retired members part time.

We have a just now emerging trend & problem where rather than buy new
devices, they would prefer to have them repaired.
As China winds down the cost of their products will increase. That will drive the trend.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 11:47:14 AM
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Sorry Clem, but I don't think it will work.

I was running just such a company making high quality high priced brass items, mostly chrome plated. They had to be just right, even a thou or 2 machining error & they did not work properly. Some tried copying, but none succeeded.

Then a copy appeared that worked, & shot our price to bits. WE found they were made in Taiwan, & in desperation we went there too. They produced to our specification, & the product worked perfectly. The real shock was the price.

In Oz the brass to start machining one product cost $5.40 per unit. There was the machining cost, tooling & material to make one plastic bit, & a neoprene [rubber] seal, plus chrome plating & assembly time to add to that.

Imagine my amazement when Taiwan could supply my item, delivered into my store, assembled, & individually packed, for $2.00.

No one has ever been able to tell me why we pay about 5 times the price for brass, produced from our zinc & copper, that the Taiwan manufacturer paid for brass, also produced from our zinc & copper.

While Asian companies can use our raw materials to produce feedstock, for less than a fifth of our price, we have no chance.

Are our costs that ridiculous? Is it our labour costs? Is it government added costs, is it economies of scale, or is it a rip off? I have no idea, but whatever it is, it turns manufacturers into importers, that or they simply die.

Love the idea, don't like it's chances.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 12:01:51 PM
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Yes Is Mise, we chose not to expand basically because of the problem of getting rid of bad employees. Fortunately the staff did not like getting bludged on, or having to continually fix others mistakes. They proved reasonably good at pushing undesirables out, when I hired the wrong people, but not good enough for it to be worth banking on.

However I also found the profit from expansion was just not worth all the extra effort involved. I really became a bit of a life balance bloke.

Yes Bazz, my son did a marine electrical apprenticeship. Over 70% of starters dropped out, as they could not handle the math. Our schools have got so bad, that even kids who have done math A & B in year 12 don't have enough to handle an electrical apprenticeship. Compare this to 50 years ago, when 15 year olds from year 10 could handle it no problem.

We have a friend, an ex high school Physics teacher, who is now teaching math at a major Brisbane TAFE, & loving it. He has never had such committed students. These kids, even doing things like carpentry, know they need his course to get through their trade, & really work.

Some of the kids tell him he is the first teacher of things academic who ever gave a damn if they learnt something or not.

He quit when the school wanted him to teach senior math 3. He told them he couldn't even do it himself, & asked how he could teach it. He was told not to worry, to just muddle through.

God help the kids with a system, & headmasters like that.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 12:36:16 PM
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No Hasbeen it is TGAR, better known as "The Great Australian Ripoff".
Just like the $21,500 premium over the US price, $30,000 that Nissan
put on the Leaf Electric car".
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 12:43:20 PM
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Josephus,>>
I was a sales rep for a small manufacturing company we employed 11 factory workers 2 office staff 1 delivery driver and 3 sales reps to cover N.S.W. However other companies began producing similar products and they found it hard to compete so they began to import from China; so for us to stay in business we had to reduce our factory staff to 1 to produce specialist products and retain our higher paid reps and management. Good idea but what products can Australia produce that the Chinese cannot copy.>>

J, I have seen a similar scenario play out in the past 12 months. I know of a small manufacturing company that employed about the same numbers as the business you example. They had several specialty products but half their sales came from a non flammable aerosol mine marking paint.

The non flammable propellant for the paint went up by $30.000 per tonne with the carbon tax (consumers copped a carbon tax and importers and manufacturers copped a “carbon equivalency tax.” The importer of the product went from a stock holding of $200,000 to $750,000. The specialist paint manufacturer went from $4 per can to $8 per can. The mines stopped buying from him and purchased newly imported Chinese product for $4 per can. Chinese product that was not previously in the market.

That business is finished....staff paid out and the owner is scrambling to import Chinese products to stay in business. But his days of manufacturing his lines in Australia are gone. He makes nothing; he is just a middle pair of hands in the transaction now.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 2:31:33 PM
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I'm thinking, if CLEM's proposal won't work, what will ?

Speaking as one who never produced anything in his entire life, it would seem to me, if we don't find a process/a system/something in which to keep this once great country going...surely we'll become the 'white trash' of Asia ?

Everyone of you, who've contributed to this topic must have ('in your own mind') SOME SOLUTION to our respective ills, surely ?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 3:46:39 PM
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O SONG WU..the key..to all this..is to become fully first world
by allowing the true values back into our coin/that has been long kept artificially low..to make us '.competitive.mainly by big us dollar deals/like the one not TALKED OF THIS MORNING of 14 bilion worth of over engineered yanKI flying machines..we will buy on borrowed money in the next 3 years'

this volume..of usa SPEND..HAS LONG HELD OUR DOLLAR LOW
STopping it would allow the true value to buy true value..ie we live HIGH ON THE HOG..because the consumables cost near noTHING..[lets face it as a nation/we are now like doctors..not road bUILDERS..OR TOILET ENGENEERS..BUT WE GOT A THIRD RATE MONEY SYSTEM..LIKE THE FIRMER NATZIES..BUT BOUND BY GREEK LIKE DEBT

SEE THE FEDERAl..has made the state..assume the debt
the state has forced the people into debt/we owe private debt..now that has a capiTALIST PROFFIT MAQRGIN ON TOP PLUS INTREST ON TOP OF GST..ETC..[WHEN GOVT CAN ISSUE ITS OWN MONEY FOR FREE.

THESE FACTOries..CAN BE REMADE INTO HOUSING AND SHOPPING AND MIXED BUISNESS WITH ENTERTAINMENT..ETC..people can live near their work..not drive 3 hours to a job..but first we need let the play play out..its going to hurt heaps..as long as we think we need more private security expenditure while cutting education science and the arts

any ideas are wasted ON THIS LOT
[I GAVE RUDD MANY OF HIS IDEAS..HE MANAGED TO STUFF NEAR EVERYONE OF EM UP..because he didnt have the viSION..HE took ADVICE..FROM CAPITALISTS..i recall his wife is millionaire..because she took up the privatization of employment..into a YANKI COMMISION BASED TYPE..ITS JUST WASTED ON THIS BUNCH OF NEST FEATHERLIGHTISTS.

2b ctd
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 4:44:55 PM
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see how the latest building show..is building in a dead factory/now upSCALE THAT VISION INTO MAKING A MARKET TYPE european market stall.yards of stals..making thinGS ..where they live/repairing things better than new

i recall in rebuilding italy.the choice WAS TO MAKE Exclusive luxury..or CHEAP MASS PRODUCED..THEY WENT WITH QUALITY/WE NOW FACE THE SAME TEST..DARE WE BE GREAT?..TEL USA WE DONT WANT NO MORE PLANES/SECURITY STUFf amd spying stuff etc.

we need TO STEP BAck in time
decentralization..working localy not globally.
SIMPLY restore true values back into coin..and ya coin jar becomes the banko..[a money box SIZE OF A SARDEEN CAN.holds 200 DOLLARS IN 2 DOLLAR COIN..REVALUE THEIR FACE VALUE BACK TO THE PRE DEBASED VALUES MAKES THAT 200 BUCKS 20,000...we begin consuming..we are saved
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 4:45:19 PM
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< Everyone of you, who've contributed to this topic must have ('in your own mind') SOME SOLUTION to our respective ills, surely ? >

Sure! Get rid of all the bullsh!t regulations and let people work for a start. Get rid of the GST, it killed more businesses than any other tax. Change the tax system. Stop pandering to multinationals/large corporations and allowing them to monopolise markets via regulation. Stop nannying the employees at the expense of the employer. People in this country have one of the worst cases of tall poppy syndrome I've ever seen!

But even this won't help any more I don't think. There are much easier ways for the time being to make money and everyone with the cash to start a business knows making stuff in Australia is suicide! .gov has never been friendly to small business in Australia and now they've just about got their wish of eradicating it for good. They won't have the last laugh though, we'll all pay in the future!
Posted by RawMustard, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 6:01:14 PM
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Hi there RAWMUSTARD and ONE UNDER GOD (Johan)...

'...They won't have the last laugh though, we'll all pay in the future...' Essentially, what you're saying RM is, as a Nation, we've had it ?

I guess (sadly) you're right. I suppose, in order to carry on, pay our huge welfare bill, pay for all the necessities that we now enjoy, we'll need to borrow more ? And borrow even more again, in order to meet the interest payments levied for all the previous loans.

Thus our welfare bill increases, more out of work, because there's fewer employers with jobs available. Vacancies exist only for the highest qualified applicants. We'll again need to borrow more, because welfare recipients outnumber workers ? From our Triple AAA rating, perhaps the Credit Assessors won't even look at us for any further rating, because they'll consider us a poor risk with our ever burgeoning debt ?

Still our politicians will argue too and fro across the chamber, without ever addressing issues of our basic salvation.
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 8:00:41 PM
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The future seems is held in one man owner specialist businesses. They seem to survive very well.

We used to get all our dies made in China for a quarter the price we paid die makers in Australia.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 8:18:32 PM
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Australia must re-introduce some level of regulatory control over the international corporate traders who dominate our market place. THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.
The removal of tariffs and import controls on a global scale during the 1970s enabled the captains of international trade to exploit the comparative advantage of low cost labour in poor countries. The large internal cost differentials existing between the wealthy and poor countries has enabled international corporate traders to buy cheap in poor countries and sell high in richer countries, thereby extracting huge profits. This may be the single most important factor affecting global economic health.

This situation has locked poor countries into a cycle of continuing slavery and poverty because the wage levels preclude increased spending power and without spending power their economy and their markets remain stagnant.

In the wealthy countries the import of cheaper product has undermined local production and set in motion a process of de-industrialisation. Un-employment, under-employment and an employment shift to the service sector are all a result of de-industrialisation. This in turn results in a shrinking tax base and a heavy social security liability for the governments and people concerned. This tax on the national wealth also diminishes the spending power of the people and has the same stagnating effect on the economy and the markets of the wealthy countries as those of the poor countries. In the current economic climate the poor countries stay poor, the richer countries are being strangled and the multi-national corporations continue to exploit resources and labour and to siphon off huge monetary wealth. Free trade is a global failure; what we now have is huge monopolies controlling global trade and government decision making.
Den 71
Posted by DEN71, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 9:53:09 PM
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I don't think any of us have clear ideas on the way to organise our
industry.
Anyone who does is almost certainly wrong.
My own opinion formed and reinforced by a few books I have read are
that there will be a wind down in globalisation and all countries will
turn inward for their needs.

Globalisation will be a victim of increased energy costs and the
increased costs of the inputs to industry.
It will not wind down evenly, but some will go back to a simpler lifestyle earlier.
Everything will become local. If you want a new table & chairs you
won't go Harvey Normans, you will go to a local furniture maker.
Travel as we know it will end and be more like it was near the end
of the 19th century.

The real problem will be how we will handle the changes and the
removal of well worn industrial and business practises.
Education will be come more practical and expand the study more down
to earth subjects such as metallurgy rather than marketing.

This whole process has already started as can be seen in the state of
government finances, but just when it will become undenialable is very
hard to tell. It will depend on how much oil & gas they can squeeze
out of the planet and also on some miracle energy process arriving.

The one big worry is the system theory of complex systems collapse.
This tells us that just a few key system failures could cause a catastrophic collapse
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 12 March 2014 10:21:05 PM
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Countries like Australia could depend on Solar, wave and tidal energy to meet our energy needs in the future
Posted by Josephus, Thursday, 13 March 2014 10:55:13 AM
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JOSEPHus/quote..<<..Countries like Australia could depend on Solar, wave and tidal energy to meet our energy needs in the future>>

there is no FUTURE..as you joseph must know
this far and no further..the end time will be here before the gas runs out.

thing is joseph..we near destroyed the world..as it is/just getting here..but the next stage..rebuilding that we near destroyed creating ..needs more commerce..more industry in rebuilding..THAT WE JUST FINISHED BUILDING

MATE..you know the big poleshift is cOMMING
THIS TIME WILL BE IN DARKNESS..total darkness..VIA THE DUSTS AND VOLCANOES SPEWING DUST INTO THE AIR

THE TIDES WILL GO NUTS..destroying..the power machines[these things beak all the time..the wind will be too strong..for the wind machines[oh and all that dust..stops the sun from shuining on ya solar cells

AND THE ONLY POWER WILL BE FROM WHAT WE ALLREADY BEGAN shutting down
nukes going..coal going ..thus the two thirds die..and were well on the way..unless the end times are shorted.[THIS URGE TO DESTROY REBUILD..ISNT GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.,,.YET Again

but THEN AGAIN
THIS IS SATANS REALM
AND HE CAN DO as he likes with his own
now are the truely evil ones of a number near 144,000
or those whO BELIEVE THE WARMING WARNING IS A SCAM..[WE ARE MORE LIKE 2 BILLION../its not uS WHO GO.
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 13 March 2014 11:24:02 AM
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Bazz, I hope you are right about peak oil. I don't think you are, but I can still hope. I would even give up my beloved old sports car for such a blessing.

About the only thing that can get Oz back on a reasonable track would be the end of globalism. That is not going to happen while international freight transport is so cheap.

With great fear in 1962, I watched my new Morgan +4 being slung out of the hold of the ship from the UK, onto the wharf in Sydney. It took about 8 men something like 20 minutes. They spent 3 days unloading that little 10,000 tonner, it must have cost a fortune. To day 40,000 ton roll on roll off ship unloads hundreds of cars in a day. It was not just imposed import duty that protected our manufacturing.

Freight costs that protected much of our small industry are no longer of much effect. If fuel becomes expensive enough, we might have a chance.

Yep the sight of clipper ships carrying international trade once again will signal our return to manufacturing our own requirements.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 13 March 2014 11:58:42 AM
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OUG our low paid workers are on 20 bucks an hour, (cost to employer) so, how mush do you propoe we pay these high skilled workers, asuming we can find them first.

I am afraid we have cooked our goose so as to say so far as us manufacturing anything that can sustain our nation.

Our quest for ever cheaper goods has come at a price, we pushed for it, now we have to accept it.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 13 March 2014 12:45:40 PM
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Sorry OUG, that last post was meant to go to the author.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 13 March 2014 12:54:56 PM
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Hasbeen, transport cost is the main parameter that will kill globalisation
and the cost is rising steadily. One factor in that is the trend to diesel for cars.
This has put strains on refineries that cannot provide the diesel
bunker fuel ratio that they previously found just right.
The result is container ships are forced to buy a diesel/bunker mixture
and many have reduced their speed from 25 knots to 15 knots to save fuel.
That plus rising port charges, which there was a report about recently
somewhere must be having a gradual screw down on shipping lines.
Like all these things it is difficult to guess the timing of when it
will be obvious, all that can be said it, if you see this, that will happen not long after.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 13 March 2014 2:58:52 PM
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Yes costs are a powerful malfunction, and 457 visas will cost.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 13 March 2014 3:33:05 PM
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Yes 579, we should be training our own.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 13 March 2014 5:35:39 PM
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Yes Hasbeen and 579, and if our own refuse to be trained, cut them off!

We will need every single job on offer for our own long list of looming unemployed, so an immediate ban on immigration (including illegas) and 457's must be implemented, as we know in advance we are headed for a train wreck, so we must be pro active, not rective, as is usually the case.

In fact, if we don't take immediate action, a recession would be an easy outcome, as we could actually see a depression.

The next five years will see us in damage control and high end manufacturing will mean little because few will be in a position to afford the buy these goods.

I know i sound like doom and gloom, but just look at the numbers.

In the next five years, we will have no car industry, including their supporters, the CSG projects will be winding down, and China may not be buying our coal or iron ore.

It is my view we are in for a hiding to nothing, the likes most of us haunt seen before.

I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 14 March 2014 7:42:51 AM
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Do you think that since one third of our sons who have not had a live at home father going to work each day will get the incentive to get out of bed to go to work? Many have spent all their time playing games and self entertainment and haven't learned self discipline to achieve in the work force. Their self image has been damaged to believe in themselves as great men.

We need to regain the incentives and drive of our forefathers whose labours we have for too long relied upon.
Posted by Josephus, Friday, 14 March 2014 9:45:38 AM
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Hunger is a very strict taskmaster.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 14 March 2014 2:57:08 PM
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bazz..re hunger
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=2+bilLION+GO+HUNGRY&
seems its only one billion..BUT IM SURE IF THE MASTER SET THE TASK..they would meet or exceed it..but the master loves the suffering

<<..Hunger is a very strict taskmaster.>>
ISNT STRICTLY A TRUEISM..but iT DOES CONTSTAIN certain truths
BUT DOES HUNGER NEED A TASK MASTER..TO END IT OR MAKE IT WORSE.
Posted by one under god, Friday, 14 March 2014 3:08:27 PM
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