Scott Morrison and Tony Abbott must come clean with the Australian people as to what is going on at Manus Island PNG. Terrible violence broke out at the Island detention centre on Monday night. Details of what happened are still emerging. But what we do know is that 77 people were injured and one man, tragically, was killed.
Amnesty International reports as a country, we’re denying asylum seekers on Manus Island things required for basic human dignity -- things like shoes, adequate drinking water, soap and sanitation, privacy, proper healthcare and contact with loved ones. This is not what Australians do to other people. Even in times of war Australia has treated POW’s with dignity and humanity, that is the Australian way.
Despite the politics of the whole asylum seeker issue I am shocked to hear about the conditions for detainees at the Manus Island detention centre. I am shocked to hear about the violence and death that has occurred there recently.
I ask what Australia is becoming. If any of these allegations are true this Manus Island gulag must be closed. I am sickened by the way Tony Abbott has been "bragging" about the very poor conditions at the PNG detention centre. Morrison the minister must take his ministerial responsibility and stop trying to buck pass the issue off to the PNG authorities, as something they will have to deal with, it is Australia’s responsibility!

Paul1405,
Where do you suggest we put those people ? Let them into Australia ? Will ou be paying for it ?
Why not tell us what happened on Manus ? You say terrible things happened but you don't tell who started the trouble & how ? Aren't you speculating to soon ? What if it was the asylum seekers themselves who caused the trouble. I'm only speculating but my guess is the asylum seekers see themselves as having failed in their mission to come to Australia & now they're getting pi$$ed off.

As you are aware Paul I want the boats stopped, and knew Abbott would do that.
This mornings Age has the best editorial on it I ever read.
But it, well written as it is avoids a truth.
Had the boat people there listened to warnings and not come we would have no riots/incidents.
Manus is highlighting those refugee advocates who are trying to sabotage our boarder protection system.
Note how many detainees rang so many advocates , and honestly you will see my point.
Now I step out on thin ice, but only in the minds of some who look at the numbers but not the end result.
Malaysian Plan includes a fast trip back to there, not off shore or on shore processing .
And even a glance at the cost saving in that plan, and a regional solution shows big gains for us.
Too it ends the need for worrying, truly concerning, Government need to hide the truth from us.

Not sure I agree, but Abbott,s Government is close to an inevitable UNHCR verbal, and international bashing.
Paul Australians in the end will continue to want the boats stopped, some want the boats loaded and sent back!

<<Where do you suggest we put those people ?>>

Back in their boats.

The Australian navy is acting as pirates, kidnapping people out at sea then locking them up.

What are our ships doing that far in the first place?
If they were not around, then they would not have to come to "rescue" the boats.

Is Christmas Island the problem? then give it independence or return it to Singapore!

ITS too easy..stop GOING TO WAR..and installing godless masters to the west..[they wont WANT OUR WAY OF LIFE

if we wernt making their reality..sO HOPELESS
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6251&page=0

SURE ITS GLOBAL...ALWAYS WAS..ALLAY WILL BE

BUT STOP THE PUSH FACTORS..[OIL/DRUG/WARS..plus of course their gold/treasure]..and their LEADERS..

[rule one of colonizations..is kill their leaders
then display..your better 'way'..of life..by war/invaders living off the spoil/they despoiled
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/charity-evicts-vulnerable-pensioners/

Devotional allegiance to the Adept-Realizer, or Spiritual Master, is the greatest function of existence and the single advantage not only of human beings but of all beings.

The devotional relationship to the Spiritual Master is participation in a unique function that appears in the realm of cosmic (or conditional) Nature...we need stop pushing new leaders..that betray,..their own people

and thus hide in others lands
you put the cake..on the table

<<>..Amnesty International reports as a country, we’re denying asylum seekers on Manus Island things required for basic human dignity -- things like shoes, adequate drinking water, soap and sanitation, privacy, proper healthcare and contact with loved ones...

sounds better than this camp=push factor

<<..This is not what Australians do to other people.>>

no theyankies do/..BUT WE FOLLOW THEM
CAUSE WE DO THE SAME COPLONIZATIONS..101

<<.. Even in times of war Australia has treated POW’s with dignity and humanity, that is the Australian way.>>
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us-and-eu-are-paying-ukrainian-rioters-and-protesters.html

YEAH..[SO WHY IS CHARLY..IN SAUDI

http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/prince-charles-promote-human-rights-saudi-arabia-arms-sales/

[WHO IS PUSHING THE SYRIA WAR]
http://www.prisonplanet.com/brutality-of-the-syrian-fundamentalist-group-who-are-even-terrifying-the-other-rebels.html

sorros project is going to plan
http://www.prisonplanet.com/video-13-dead-as-fires-riots-engulf-kiev.html

JUST SO WE CAN BRING THEM INTO NATO
sO WE CAN Threaten puttins fiefdom/..its never ending

http://washingtonexaminer.com/exography-states-use-gimmicks-to-meet-balanced-budget-requirements/article/2544142

we could talk of militarisation..of our police
once they learn the colonisation teqniques..that drive ouR BETRAYERS FROM THEIR HOMES SEEKING THE PROMISED LAND

http://www.prisonplanet.com/rise-of-the-police-state-no-knock-raids-either-we-are-against-them-or-allowing-them-to-happen.html

Yes well, Malaysia is where those people came from and Malaysia is where they should be returned to. Indonesia is just a launching pad.
I did not know there was so many on Manus. Then again we are not allowed to know.

Paul,
I think that, so far, Minister Morrison is doing a terrific job and this riot simply demonstrates that the greedy, illegal shonks are acting like spoilt kids when they don't get what they demand.

This time the locals may just have taught them a lesson, so one died that is a bit unfortunate, now we have to put some effort into digging a hole to bury him. They cause us no end of inconvienience!

The previous government sent over 1100 to their deaths. Senator Hanson-young simply said Too bad, accidents happen!

Now is the time to get tougher and the message will get back to others and dissuade them from coming, and wasting their money.

8 weeks and no boat arrivals and less are arriving to Indonesia. That is the important aspect. Lets see if we can improve on that record

I am not wise enough nor do I have the knowledge required to come up with a solution to this problem but I am sure there are people in Australia who could provide a far better solution than the currently politically motivated situation.
The less politicians have to do with it the better. Surely there are many better qualified who can resolve the situation without smirking political point scoring.
Right or wrong these refugees/illegal immigrants are people after all, maybe breaking the law but they should never be treated as political pawns.
SD

How much is all this costing us our debt is rising at the rate of 288 million / 24 hours. But we are not allowed to know.

one death under Liberals is more tragic than 1000 plus under Labour. That is the compassion of those who hate how incompetent and deceitful Labour has been made to look.

579,
At last you have written something with which I can agree.

Yes the whole detention apparatus is costing far too much.

We should reduce the facilities to the bare basics and the sooner all the boats are stopped from coming, the sooner the detention centres can be closed down

579,
Don't forget that All the costs are the result of Rudd/Gillard folly. About time you admitted the previous Labor government was the most stupid and brainless ever.

Dear Paul,

I've cited on another discussion that
"quality debate about big issues is poor.
It appears that it's not so much a policy debate
anymore - but debates about personal attributes,
personalities..."

Peter Costello said it well when he pointed out that,
"These days politics is more about gaining and
holding office than using office to improve things
for the better."

And former attorney-general and foreign minister,
Gareth Evans pointed out "The quality of policy debate in
the last election campaign was as desolate as it gets -
including, it has been acknowledged on the Labor side:
all Hill and no Light."

The public are currently being fed rehearsed lines, and
they know it.

It's a dreadful situation on Manus Island - and I certainly
don't have the answers for this complex problem. However,
there surely must be better solutions to what's currently
happening. And finger-pointing, and blaming is not going
to solve the situation. Surely our political leaders
instead could come together on this and try to find workable
answers.

As Henry Lawson wrote so many years ago:

"They lie, the men who tell us in a loud decisive tone
That want is here a stranger, and that misery's unknown;
I wonder would the apathy of wealthy men endure
Were all their windows level with the faces of the poor?"
(Henry Lawson, Faces in the Street).

Manus Island detention Center was first set up under John Howard and used by the Gillard and Rudd Governments with little media attention till this current outbreak. Which the Refugee advocates now love to blame Tony Abbott for the riots. Because our border control is now much more effective those seeking life in Australia have been frustrated. Let us wait till we have a full and fair assessment of just what took place and the causes of the riot.

We still have people that don't recognise that we have a coalition govt; The same opposition that was all talk before the election. They had everything fixed, but now we see they don't do anything. How long will our navy be floating around in water off of Indonesia. Forever or longer. The activities of the coalition are stacking on an extra 140 million $ / day. with no solutions. since they have come to power the tally by april will be 60 billion $.

579,
Since you blame the present Government of stopping the boats by their presence; how do you suggest we stop the boats without using the Navy to protect our borders. Actual costed suggestions please!

Josephus,
Expecting answers on a forum such as this is drawing a long bow.
What is presented here are only opinions and we all have those.
Those that are capable of providing solutions I doubt would be within a bulls roar of Parliament House or this forum.
It would seem we prefer the political solutions, makes for better reading I guess.
SD

When considering costs it should be borne in mind that most of the costs attributed to the Navy are standing costs/charges and will occur no matter which sea or ocean they are operating in.

These so called refugees in the past have committed may instances of self harm with the aim of bringing pressure on Government to release them.

It is not beyond belief the whole incident was planned by some of them knowing full well that some would get injured during a mass escape and violent protests, this would them put pressure on the Government to abandon the off shore processing.

The local and police response to a mass escape was predictable as that i9s exactly what happened on Nauru a while ago. The only difference being on Nauru they do not have a lot of people with machetes.

Did I hear on the radio this morning that the UNHCR in Jakarta has reported a 70% drop in asylum seeker arrivals to Indonesia?
So much for push factors.
So who else finds this suspicious?
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/immigration-minister-scott-morrison-welcomes-investigation-after-department-reveals-asylum-seeker-details-20140219-3315i.html
There's two possibilities here, either the foreign insurgent group The Guardian Australia paid a sympathiser in the department to release the information in a hamfisted attempt at sabotage or the government is using this "inadvertent" leak to rid themselves of a political problem by sabotaging their own community detention program.
According to dissident lawyer Robert Manne this breach of privacy should result in automatic asylum for those whose details were relesed, how very convenient for the Abbott government who now have an opportunity to wash their hands of the ten thousand or so people on TPV's and go to the next election with a clean slate on border protection.

Lets be honest and I include myself, we are becoming quite racist because of this issue.
But too, truth matters remember, because of our fear and concerns about for a start Muslim behavior once settled here.
We can,with justification, talk about having the right to say who comes here and how many.
If the world press, in particular the left leaning , look at us the facts could be raised and I think proven.
Yet Without doubt I want the boats stopped.

I see a solution in the Malaysian plan, think in all honesty it would work, and halve the costs.
And that a regional solution, involving most country,s in our area, is much harder for outsiders to judge us .
IF Tony Abbott wants a Howard like support base he only need tell us how much it has, and will cost to maintain our boarders.
And then tell us how much our Social Security system has paid , and for how long, to Muslim enclave dwellers.
The horrible truth would let us see just why normal Australians are thinking like we do, self defense is the reason.

The Manus Island Detention Centre is an Australian facility. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the people being held in that facility I question the actions of the Australian government, and by default Australians, in not providing the degree of humanity I would expect from my country.
In WWII Australian POW's held captive by the Japanese were treated with utter inhumanity, and I'm not suggesting that Australia is treating asylum seekers as per Japanese treatment of POW's, despite that shocking treatment of our own people, at the same time Japaneses POW's held by Australia were treated with a degree of dignity and humanity Australia can justly be proud.
I find the governments action deplorable and un-Australian on this issue so far, and they are bring Australia into disrepute.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/storystream/abbott-dismisses-calls-close-manus-detention-centre

Paul & company. My son has a misshapen skull. He got it because that idiot Hawke had one of his crybaby/bleeding heart moments & let in a heap of Lebanonese Muslims.

In some parts of Sydney these "Lebs" control the area, & all that happens in it. It is no go for the police.

Unfortunately these areas are expanding, as their rabbit like breeding increases their numbers. They are attacking innocent people in the areas bordering their ghettos. They are particularly good at attacking single targets, when they have odds of 4 to 1 or better. They like finding single ladies too.

My son was attacked by 4 of them who jumped out of a car & attacked him. He was seconds away from death or becoming a vegetable from the kicking, when some real human beings stopped & chased the vermin off. Repair took 4 operations & many months.

I really can't understand how any of you twits can't see what these people will do to our country. The evidence is plain in all western countries who have had them for longer periods than us. The old saying, "there are none so stupid as those who just don't want to see" applies as much today as in the past.

Once they are strong enough homosexuals & feminists will be eliminated, so they will fix the ABC problem, their main support, just in passing.

It seems to me a sympathetic supporter of asylum seekers works within the immigration department has given open access to these files, knowing full well that they will all now have to be given asylum here.

Dear Hasbeen,

I'm so sorry about your son.

Bad things do happen to good people.
And blaming just one sector of our
community is not fair. Blame the thugs
for this behaviour by all means - but
they are not just restricted to one group
of people. Thugs and criminals come from
various backgrounds.

I've written previously about my nephew who was
beaten badly by some young student thugs when he
came to the aid of a young girl student on his
campus in Lismore. My nephew was in a coma for
a long time and ended up with a plate in his head.
He was brain damaged and -
He'll never be normal. He now works for his uncle
in Sydney.

Paul 1405,
For once I agree with you but can you not see that this is a structural problem within Liberalism and Democracy?
What's more the Abbott camp and your side are both equally dishonest in dealing with the Asylum Seeker issue because you both misrepresent "those most vulnerable".
If you're to have an honest discussion about "those most vulnerable" to war, persecution and state or religious repression then you need to have both sides admit that those most in need of protection are men and boys between the ages of 15 and 65.
If the goal is to be fair and truly help those most vulnerable then you need to set aside liberal values and select candidates for asylum on the basis of their male gender and age and exclude those least at risk, women, infants and the elderly.
So the roadblock to "compassion" is misandry from both Progressives and Conservatives.
Ask yourself why Robert Manne and Julian Burnside haven't mounted a sex discrimination case over for example the gender disparity in grants of asylum to irregular arrivals by air?
That's of course a rhetorical question since we all know that both Progressives and Conservatives would have a fit if anyone tried such an approach because their goal is to feel good by adopting a safe and traditional women and children first policy, neither side gives a damn about "those most in need".

If you look at the photos of the rioters you clearly see some of the so called refugees with covering over part of there face, this is what a criminal does so they won't be identified.

I doubt anyone being attacked by people is going to stop and think OH I better cover my face so they don't recognize me.

Also to me this indicates they started the whole thing, they knew what they were going to commit a crime so covered there face.

You want the truth Paul, I doubt you can handle the truth, because the truth is, this entire waste fest is the creation of one Kevin Rudd, who, by the way, will be kept by us for the rest of his life. What a joke!

Jay, I read what you said, but how do you quantify, "those most vulnerable". One of the fallacy's about refugees is that there exists some kind of ordered queue and asylum seekers arriving by boat are queue jumpers. That would be so if a queue did in fact exist, when it clearly does not.

http://www.sbs.com.au/goback/about/factsheets/10/are-refugees-who-arrive-by-boat-queue-jumpers

My argument here is not about the rights and wrongs of these asylum seekers, it is about the base level we have sunk with our treatment of such people.

Paul your truth walks on Hasbeens equal truth.
And if we ever be so silly as to let both boat people and our own saboteurs win we will be traitor to our own culture/country.
I refuse to bend to unwanted and entrenched racism, from third generation Muslim Australians.
Racism? yes but no more than we are subjected to by such as the thugs who beat Hasbeens son.
If the boat people came from say England or Scotland, Ireland we would welcome every one of them.
Blame the behavior of Muslims world wide for our wanting nothing to do with them.

Belly,
It appears you and I now disagree on a couple of aspects regarding the illegal entrants.

I want to stop them coming because they get here by deceit and bribery, Jump our back fence and take advantage of our generosity by lying to our officials.

While the majority are muslims, some are not. I remember some years ago there was problems at a detention centre between the muslims and Christian detainees and I doubt if the Sri Lankans would be muslim.

So I don't like the illegals because they are cheats and con artists and I resent them conning their way here. Genuine refugees would come via the front door, safely by air, with any identity papers intact. I care not what their religion is.

Dear Hasbeen,

You wrote;

“This time the locals may just have taught them a lesson, so one died that is a bit unfortunate, now we have to put some effort into digging a hole to bury him. They cause us no end of inconvienience!”

It appears I was about to put my foot in it. I intended to ask you if you knew that young man's name, if you knew his circumstance, from what horrors he may have been fleeing, if he was an actual refugee, if he had any family? I was also going to question if you had any humanity within you since your seeming callousness was so monstrous as to beggar belief.

But it seems I do not fully appreciate your sarcasm so forgive me. I'm working on it.

Yuyutsu,
Very good points in your last post.

One question I will ask of you posters though, what do you think our Prime Minister meant when he said “We will not succumb ... to moral blackmail,’’?

Indeed what is moral blackmail?

“In ethical theory, moral dilemmas in which a moral agent is forced to choose between some number of wrong actions due to an outside agent are known as moral blackmail. Moral blackmail is a circumstance when an agent (A) is forced into a situation by an outside agent (B) where (A) is forced to choose between two or more actions, all of which are morally wrong. A popular example, perhaps the locus classicus, of such a situation is the theme of the book Sophie's Choice and is set up as follows: (A) is forced by (B), to choose which of her children will be killed by (B). If (A) chooses for one child to live, the other will be killed. If (A) refuses to choose, both children will be killed. In this scenario, no matter what (A) does, her choice will result in a moral evil occurring. To choose one child's life is to see the other child die, and to choose neither results in the death of both children at the hands of (B).”
http://www.academia.edu/1434094/Moral_Blackmail_Excerpt_

So does the PM feel he his being made to choose between two moral evils, if so what do we think he thinks they are?

Dear Banjo,

Here's a link that I'm not sure whether you've
seen previously:

http://www.news.com.au/national/taxpayers-wear-burden-of-60000-illegal-immigrants/story-e6frfkvr-1226200664868

'Indeed what is moral blackmail? ' Just means he has seen clearly through the lefts hypocrisy who show absolutely no compassion for the 1000 plus drowned but pretend to care about the one shot.

TONY Abbott has warned his government won’t succumb to "MORAL BLACKMAIL" as he dismissed calls to close down the Manus Island detention center following a fatal riot.

Mr Abbott said the Australian government won’t be deterred or intimidated by anyone to back away from its strong border protection stance.

I am left absolutely flabbergasted by this statement from Abbott. Its MORAL RELATIVISM. This is exactly the same line used by the Nazi's to justify the extermination of the Jews!

http://personal.bellevuecollege.edu/wpayne/Moral%20Relativism.htm

Foxy - What is your point those 60,000 are not on the dole, they do not get preferential housing, they do not get free legal, medical and other services.

They can be deported without costing the taxpayers for appeals right up to the high court.

When is the last time you read a story about someone on an overstayed visa that took part in a gang rape of a 14 yo girl or sexually assaulting 7 young girls at a pool in Darwin or anywhere else?
There are lots of more if you like, but I am sure you are aware of them.

Paul1405 - I am sure if you really try you could draw a parallel or link between the pie I had for lunch and Hitler's cook.

Your linking the 2 things is preposterous.

How about this Paul. You and your bleeding heart supporters, about 20% of us I woud guess, pay additional taxes, so as to remove the burden from the rest of us that were quite happy with the way things were before that irrisponsibe Mr Rudd came along and decided one day he had a plan to fix something that quite obviously wasn't broken.

This way, you and your supporters can feel all warm and fuzzy, while the rest of us can get on with our lives, all be it, with far less prospects and far less finacial security than we actually had.

Because quite frankly, I am sick to death of this Rudd introduced debacle, especially given that he has now run away from the issue, at our expense.

I didn't vote for this mess, nor should MY TAXES be wasted on this issue.

So may I suggest, either you lot put up, or shut up, so we can at least allow the only government in over six years with the balls to fix this inherited mess, go about doing just that.

Paul 1405,
We've got our wires crossed, I'm not talking about who should be where in an imaginary queue, I understand that particular red herring.
Men and boys are in the greatest danger and in the greatest need of protection, they are the most likely to be conscripted, arrested, tortured or summarily executed in times of social upheaval.
Manus island is full of Men, the boats are full of Men seeking refuge, if the boats were full of women, girls and infants we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
I've only just recently arrived at the conclusion that both the demonisation of Asylum seekers and their portrayal by your side as suffering women and children are dishonest, this is really a gender issue.

Hasbeen,
You are a callous old sod, fancy talking about a fellow human being like that. At least Hanson-Young showed more compassion about the 1100 that died when she said "accidents happen".

You know I would not be of that opinion, even as I considered him an oxygen thief.

Recently I read about some young bloke that stole a motor bike and wrapped it around a tree, killing him. I cried, not for him, but for the owner of the bike. You know he probably worked hard to save the money to buy the bike, and go without. Now he has to start again. Poor bugger, I really feel for him, He lost a good bike, that is compassion.

So the bloke that died on Manus had set out to deliberately deceive us and gate crash our country, just like they all do. He met with an accident and accidents happen, according to SH-Y. Could have happened to someone worthwhile.

You must learn to be more sympathetic, and stop pinching others lines.

Belly, true we are now racist.
Why is it so ?

Very simple, it has been earned.

Those on Manus can ask to be sent home & they are given I think $1000
& a plane ticket. So if they don't like it there they can leave.

Actually, Islam is a political movement.
Its whole philosophy is fascist. The Imman of Jerusalem praised Hitler
for gassing the Jews, and urged him to intensify the process.
It started out in life as a band of brigands and built a religion to
give themselves an excuse.
They attacked and invaded what is now Israel and killed or expelled
the Jews and Christians.

They have not changed their objectives since that time.
Like Hitler they want to rule the world.

Oh yes Australia has been critisised for human right breaches regarding
the death in Manus Island.
Who made the complaint, wait for it,, China !

Belly,

Attacking Islam is not racist as Islam is not a person or persons, it is a political ideology pure and simple, and as it sets out to destroy our way of life then it should be resisted at all levels and banned in this country.

Paul,
Reductio Ad Hitlerum, the favoured tactic of the boorish anti intellectual.
You may not be aware (understandably since very little relevant material has appeared in english) that the extermination myth has been dead since 2002 when Horst Mahler served a criminal writ upon Der Spiegel journalist Fritjof Meyer after the publication of his article
"The Number of Victims of Auschwitz: New Findings in the Light of Newly-Discovered Documents".
The German government backed down and declined to prosecute Meyer and acknowledged that revising estimated death tolls at Auschwitz and other camps did not constitute "Holocaust Denial" or "Incitement Of the Masses". This you will agree is a fundamental change in the legal position, the German state is now effectively consenting to Meyer's rather bizarre estimate of 300,000 or so victims of homicidal gassings and repudiation of the Birkenau gas chamber orthodoxy.
Sorry Paul you can't get away with those analogies anymore, it weakens your argument and destroys you credibility when you use lies to vilify people you don't like.
It's actually an appalling post and Mr Abbott would be able to sue you for defamation, it'd be an open and shut case.

I forgot to mention one basic flaw in your argument, the Nazis never publicly tried to justify the "extermination" of Jews to anyone, it was a secret remember?

This thread has certainly brought out the predictable response from the regulars amongst the 'Usual Suspects'.
This comment sums up the attitude of some of these.

“This time the locals may just have taught them a lesson, so one died that is a bit unfortunate, now we have to put some effort into digging a hole to bury him. They cause us no end of inconvenience!"

"it's actually an appalling post and Mr Abbott would be able to sue you for defamation, it'd be an open and shut case"
Jay, not only an expert on everything but a lawyer to boot. where did you get your law degree out of the Cornflakes Box?
I in fact said Abbott is guilty of what can be termed 'Moral Relativism' the most famous example of moral relativism is the Nazi justification for the extermination of the Jews. Some when confronted with overwhelming evidence become histories revisionists.
What a statement "I forgot to mention one basic flaw in your argument, the Nazis never publicly tried to justify the "extermination" of Jews to anyone, it was a secret remember?" Jay, you need to read more, see if you can find out what Himmler had to say on the subject to the SS, basically " its a dirty job but someone has to do it.". But then its appalling that one would deny the destruction of 6 million people.

'I in fact said Abbott is guilty of what can be termed 'Moral Relativism' the most famous example of moral relativism is the Nazi justification for the extermination of the Jews. '

yep Paul the favourite doctrine of secular humanist and then they show their hypocrisy by insisting on absolutes.

"The previous government sent over 1100 to their deaths. Senator Hanson-young simply said Too bad, accidents happen!"

Jay, does that statement qualify as a "appalling post". Attacking one of the Australian parliaments most humane persons, Senator Sarah Hanson-Young. Disgraceful that a few words by Sarah should be taken out of context and then extensively reported by the Murdoch gutter press! Implying that Sarah would be uncaring about the deaths of 1100 innocent men, women and children, what kind of monster would be so dismissive of such a human tragedy?

Paul,
Yes it does but I didn't see it so...
Sarah Hanson Young is a good person, you're a good person,
so am I, so are Individual and JayB and all the others.
Ms Hanson Young is also guilty of the same hysterical response when she talks about "Gulags" and "concentration camps", I've said some pretty silly things in the past and so have you but we can at least try to lift the tone of the discussion above "Nazi!" vs "Communist".
The outcome of World War Two was settled twenty years before I was even born, there's no need to hang onto the myths of the 1940's,they were created as propaganda to inspire and justify the deaths of the millions of people who fought the Axis and they have no place in the world of 2014. Tony Abbott isn't given to relativism, neither was Hitler, only a moral relativist could come up with such a statement.

I am not so sure we differ Banjo,I agree with every point.
But too wanted to look as out sliders will, at us from not our view point but theirs.
Who can deny if we had no Muslim enclaves and no middle eastern criminal gangs, we would still see the world.
And its problems growing daily.
Is Mise yes, agreed, and do not let them kid/lie to you, many from my side of the fence share our views.
Yes! within the ALP some condemn my view but truth is most agree.
Remember too, research if unsure prior to WW2 many told us Hitler was a great leader great man, even told us he was mans future.
I do not hesitate to predict many who chant the good side of Islam today will try to say they never did after the truth emerges.

When will we be told the true cost of boarder protection.
Who will tell us the welfare costs these people bring
And who dare tell us how long they have been receiving our welfare.

Jay,

Did you read my link on 'Moral Relativism', I did claim that Abbott was exercising a degree of moral relativism when referring to moral blackmail and how it relates to Manus Island.

The article said this;
"So for instance, assuming the majority of Germans in Nazi Germany approved of the persecution of Jews, then according to societal moral relativism, intolerance towards Jews was right relative to Nazi Germany."
Putting it into the context of Australia today and Abbotts thinking, I believe this is the case;
"Given that the majority of Australians approve of my governments actions in relation to asylum seekers. then according to societal moral relativism, inherently my actions towards asylum seekers detained on Manus Island must be morally correct, given I have the majority of Australians approval for my actions towards asylum seekers." Otherwise Abbott would have to think he is acting immorally and those with morals will not be allowed to blackmail him. I don't think Abbott thinks that way, but rather thinks he is acting with moral correctness

Jay,

Sarah is also a politician, and I don't apologise for any politician who uses emotive and sensational language, be it the word communist or gulag etc. All political parties require media coverage to get their message across. Nothing better that a bit of sensationalism from a politician to fire up the media and consequently some much needed coverage. No good being a shrinking violet hovering about in the background.
Fortunately, most of our polys don't take the cut and thrust from their political opponents too personal, unless they are Taiwanese polys, then they have a punch up in the chamber. In fact there is a fairly high degree of respect for each other amongst politicians, each understanding the other bloke has a job to do, and its not personal. Could you image an Abbott/Shorten physical punch up in the house, make for interesting TV.

Brilliant idea, the once a year 'Poly Punch Ups and Games" to be held on the Parliamentary Lawn. For gender equality Christine Milne v's Julie Bishop at jelly wrestling. We stick a hood on Mathias Cormann and as the 'Masked Marvel' he takes on all comers. The Labor/Liberal tug o' war. Bull riding and rodeo for Bob Katter and the Nationals, dwarf tossing, and since we no longer have a parliamentary dwarf, we will just use Clive Palmer. We could even have the Pete Slipper Memorial Trophy for team player and naturally The Craig Thomson Prize for best and fairest player, the prive could be a $500 parliamentary credit card to be used at the winners brothel of choice. Paul1405 your ideas are simply brilliant!

Here is an idea. All the people whose details were published are immediately deported? After all we cannot let them have their privacy invaded.
If they find the person responsible then the deported can sue him for damages. That is a lawyer's picnic I would like to see.

It will be interesting to see how a history written further down the track will treat this current illegal immigrant/refugee problem.
The benefit of hindsight may present a totally different picture to the one we now see.
Who knows?
I have my personal views but they are not based on wisdom or knowledge and as such are subject to change as more information becomes available.
Interesting posts to date without a doubt.
SD

Just in hindsight.
I have visited Manus but it was a long time ago when I lived in the area.
A far happier place back then than it is today.
SD

Shaggy that will depend who owns Oz by then.

If it is the Chinese, it will be of no interest.

If we Ozzies still own it, it won't be of much more interest, except for a little self congratulations on a job well done.

If it has become a Muslim dictatorship, the story will be blown out of all proportion to justify the dreadful treatment they will hand out to everyone else.

Hasbeen,
Whatever; I do not think any of our recent Prime Ministers will rate too highly when it comes to a history of the last 20 to 30 years or so.
Australia appears to have gone off the boil when it comes to breeding leaders.
SD

I lived on, and grew up on Manus Island, at Lombrum the old navy base where the detention centre now sits. Once closed down and now re-opened, like an old festering wound that it is for Manusians.

Ronnie Knight (the local MP for Manus who fought strongly against the PNG government for detention centre being reopened by Australian Government) said all it = is Big $ for PNG government. HMAS Choules just finished a huge construction operation there to start on a 3,500 bed centre at Mokerang village - closer to Momote airport, (supposedly easier to reinforce & isolate if trouble brews). Current centre at Lombrum is on Manus Is, but new one will be on Los Negros Is.

Locals, people in Lombrum and around the area, are dead against it. Local labour being paid pittances on construction job. Ronnie is saying detainees threatened local men with rape of their womenfolk. Manusians are the loveliest gentle people being pushed too far! Stop the Serco/G4S gravy trains!

Mr Abbott (& Mr Hackneyed Joe)...you want to save $$$ ? - then shut the detention centres down and divert the $ saved on paying contractors back into the Health System not the diseased and run down corpse that calls itself Healthcare here. But of course like Op Resolute, you will stand firm Herr Fuhrer, pushing back the boats with your bare hands, if needed. Meanwhile the electronic whorehouse gives us our daily dose of McMurdoch Happy Meals, & guides the ship of fools onto yet another reef.

Pasim Manus island centre em i bagarup pinis bilong govmnen bilong Australia.

Just as Hitler thought he was morally correct in 1933, thus did 20 million Jews and others go to their incarcerations, deaths, and tortured memories... just as Howard thought he was correct and now too Abbott.

Semantics, ideologies, and when the truth if it ever does come out, then cast your votes in accordance at the next election.

It was the Gillard / Rudd Government that believed Manus was the solution and Abbott carried it on by taking refugees from Christmas Island to PNG.

If you are naive enough to believe Amnesty International then you probably believe in Santa Claus.
I don't dispute the fact that violence, rioting and mayhem are occurring on Manus Island,however if people choose to behave in this way then it is the duty of the relevant policing forces to react and if this means violent resolutions then so be it.
Rightly or wrongly these people are in legal custody. They must behave or be made to do so.
The alternate is ask to be repatriated. I am sure the government will agree.
The bottom line is that this is New Guinea and not Australia and Australian laws have no weight.
I do believe that the use of a hired security labor force (SERCO) who are nothing more than mercenaries incognitos does nothing for the Australian Image and I imagine some of the New Guinea police remember SERCO ( under another name) from a previous life.
Full marks to the New Guinea police. We should be giving them new Glock .50s.

Albie,
Interesting post.
My own view is Australia should not buy/bribe these poorer nations into taking on a problem that belongs to Australia.
It is a cop out.
Take the politics out of the problem, place it in the hands of professionals. Surely there are people in Oz who have the wherewithal to find a lasting solution.
Australia needs to man up, it is our problem, not Narus or that of New Guineas nor that of any other impoverished nation. We are buying a short term solution, a poor one, we surely have the ability to do better than that.
Get the pollies and the bleeding hearts out of it for starters.
SD

The Manus Island's police commander Alex N'Drasal has blasted the Abbott government's running of the detention centre.
Abbott needs to come clean on the roll of the private firm G4S security is playing. As the Australian government contractor being paid to supply security, G4S seems to be over stepping the mark, taking the law into their own hands so to speak. Morrison is now saying 50 more security people from Wilson's Security are on stand by to move in if there is any more trouble on the island.
Ron Knight the local MP said he believed that gun butts and batons had been used against asylum seekers by the notorious PNG "mobile squad" a paramilitary branch of the local police. Knight said the squad "had to be brutal to be effective". this paramilitary unit is of the type that beat a local man to death last year. Stationed inside the detention centre are also PNG Army and PNG Special Branch Police. It has been said these two units don't get on, they fight with each other on a regular basis, there is a lot of acrimony between them, one unit wanting to be seen as tougher than the other.
Local PNG staff are angry at their pay of $7 a day while expats are being paid $120,000/year.
The local community is angry at the location of the detention centre and there is evidence that locals were involved in Monday nights disturbance.
Seems Mr Abbott you have a lot of angry hot heads on Manus Island. What are you going to do about it? Turn a blind eye as the powder keg explodes!

Paul1405 has a point. I think Manus is not sufficiently, what is the
word ?, I don't want to put the locals down, but in a society where
payback is just about accepted as normal, is not the place for a
sophisticated problem like this.

Nauru is different it has had a hundred years of dealing with the
outside world with their phosphate rock industry.

There must be an island somewhere that Australia can buy, put the
detainees onto it and tell them this is yours goodbye !

At the rate of 288 million / day of borrowed money going on our debt. Malaysia would have solved the problem years ago.

....At the rate of 288 million / day of borrowed money going on our debt. Malaysia would have solved the problem years ago.

So 579, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you actually suggesting that the il treatment of fellow humans is fine, so long as we are not involved.

Great!

Butch you have a habit of answering your own questions. Can it be any worse than what is happening right now.

What Australia, and indeed the rest of the world has to come up with is a long term workable solution to the plight of refugees. In the context of a world problem, Australia so far has been relatively untouched.
No one, and certainly not I, are advocating an open door policy, such a policy would create more problems than it would solve. The solutions attempted thus far, although having some degree of political success seem doomed to long term failure.
The PNG solution is not working and will not work. In a rather conceited manner Australia thought the use of money would appeal overwhelmingly to a very poor nation like PNG and our problem would become their problem. Not so, realistically PNG is poorly equipped to deal with the problem of refugees. No matter how much we would like to make it PNG's problem, Australia is still responsible, and illconceived, short term, stop gap political solutions won't work in Australia, and certainly they won't work in PNG. We need to stop the political game and adopt a constructive bipartisan approach, if we are to get any degree of success with the refugee problem, long term. The problems of refugees are systemic to the world as a whole and won't go away in the short term and can only grow larger.

http://www.un.org/en/globalissues/refugees/

Yes Paul1405, unfortunately there is no real solution except to send
them back from whence they came.
When the next big crash comes, probably after 2017, but it could be
earlier, there will be no choice but to send them back.

Read between the lines of what the pollies are saying and listen to the
desperation in Joe Hockey's voice as he calls for growth.

He understands what is coming but he has still not understood that
growth is not dependant on money. If we get 20% or more unemployment
we will not be able to afford to keep the boat people here.
It will be whether we pay unemployment benefits or feed boat people.
What happens if we cannot afford to keep paying for Manus & Nauru ?

YOU DON'T HAVE THE MONEY !

Paul, these are not refugees, as the term refugee means to flee their home country to the first safe haven, Australia is not the first save haven for them.

These are illegal que jumpers and should feel lucky they are at least being provided for, might I add, most likely better than many of out own retired tax payers.

Judging by your obvious unwillingness to address my previous posts, I would suggest you are fully aware of what they are, and what caused the problem in the first place.

You (green backed labor) had six years to fix the problem you caused, so it's time to step aside, admit the failure of your green/labor alliance and let Mr Abbott and co fix their inherited mess.

And don't forget, because I will never stop reminding you that there is a very simple solution, stop catching the boats. It's called, helping ones self.

THE CURE..is worse than the problem..dare to ask why?
http://rss.infowars.com/20140220_Thu_Alex.mp3

Abbott with his wisdom of NO made sure the boat people did not stop.
This problem could have solved years ago. But Abbott would not allow that to happen. So now we are saddled with a 288 million / day black hole that's a million every 5 minutes.

So what about the glossy pix on wall of NORFORCE HQ a few years ago, by the way whilst the Ruddinator was at the helm ?

Electronic whorehouse & others said "6 boats intercepted off Ashmore Reef..." that day...same PC3 Orion pass with pix uncropped showed 36 boats of foreign origins...SIEVS/fishing boats, and such in frame.

We have not been & are not getting the truth from any government whether under Howard/Rudd-Gizzard/Abbott.

The boats are still coming...we just don't have enough NORFORCE patrols on the ground or Customs/RAN at sea to monitor and report. Thus by way of paying Serco/G4S and foreign parties we have been exponentially losing that capacity to detect, monitor, and intercept and that is precisely why the Abbott government modus operandi is disinformation & by proxy - no information...divide and conquer ! Everyone on this weblog page has fallen to this ruse.

Be worried, very worried, all you bleeding hearts, as the least of our problems will be Islamisation, human rights abuses, etc...what is there not to understand ? Purely and plainly it will be foot and mouth and rabies coming ashore with the undetected landfall SIEV's.
But yes your lecturers and others at your chosen educational establishment, the great unwashed masses in the cities where the majority of votes will count next election will applaud you for your caring and humanist concerns...well done and pat yourselves on the back !... while a whole continent succumbs to the Hell Unleashed in the form of rabid wildlife and a decimated if not obliterated primary industry.

The forthcoming diaspora from the Syrian conflict is yet to happen...stay tuned.

Best bang for your taxpayer dollars would be drones over Indonesia and Timor/Indian/Arafura/Torres Strait with follow ups by M2 and a couple of belts of .50 cal.

Yes as I posted here on OLO a few years back...now I hear the loud footsteps of the old Chiefs & PO's Mess at HMAS Tarangau echoing the words from 40 years ago..." We (Australia) need to be careful & mindful of Indonesia...& so evidently it seems, not for purely military concerns either.

.......This problem could have solved years ago

That's a laugh, 579, the problem didn't exist until your holy one, Mr K Rudd woke up one morning with thought.

I just can't begin to imagine where we would be today had the voters not taken a punt on installing that dud bac in 07.

A hel of a lot better off I would suggest.

Albie Manton in Darwin,
Yes, M2s are the only answer.
This is a Muslim invasion nothing more or nothing less and the sooner the Australian (Christian) population realise it the sooner we can react in kind.
Get out of the UN Conventions. (None of them help us)
Turn the boats back at gunpoint.
Shoot them if they try to land illegally.
Sink them if necessary (They will soon learn}
I'm bloody sure I didn't fight wars for these people to invade my country,use my resources, take my jobs, usurp my religions, abuse my women and daughters,blight my suburbs with their violence and ethnic unrest.
My government, be it Rudd or Abbot, never asked me if I wanted these people here, in my land and I am bloody sure the 'first Australians' weren't asked either.

Yes chrisgaff1000, I feel for you guys who have risked your life to provide us with the peaceful existence we enjoy today.

Very thing you fought for is at risk simply because our law makers are too arranant to look around at other parts of the world where these mobs have not only refused to assimilate into their chosen communities, but they have tried to change those countries into their countries.

We must put a stop to these illegals entering, and we must also ban the Muslim religion from our country.

Failure to act on this will mean your colleagues who fought with you and paid the ultimate sacrifice did so in

This is Australia and there is no place here for this rubbish.

Butch,
Everything changes, nothing is forever.
The Australia I knew as a child no longer exists.
The secret is to control the change as much as you can, retain as much as you can of the good and seek the best in the new.
To resist change usually means it will overpower you totally.
Our future and its changes needs to be in the hands of competent people and this is where we lack as we possibly have the worst crop of politicians Australia has ever seen, and this has been the case for some time.
There are pressures to our north that cannot be ignored, maybe in the short term but they will overpower us eventually unless we learn to manage the change to our benefit.
Some wise and cool heads needed.
SD

Shaggy what we need to do is carry the biggest stick on the block.

Sure nothing could make us invulnerable to the very big players, but a really big stick could make it easier to buy what we have, rather than try to take it by force. The application of force is very expensive, it is easier to print money if strong resistance is likely.

With the lesser players, who may be more numerous than us by far, the biggest stick would make anything but friendly relations not practical.

We are always going to have to rub a few faces in the dirt, regularly, to make the point that we will if necessary, get serious. Our patrol boats going where they like is just such a warning. It has obviously been observed by those it was meant to warn, & hated by the boat people advocates, due to it's effectiveness.

The real secret is not to manage change forced on you, but to initiate the changes you desire, with sufficient strength to enforce them.

Remember a PM who constantly reminded us we must become a part of ASIA and accept multi-cult-uralism. That was a large step in the asianiation of Australian culture.

Hi Paul1405,

I can solve all these problems instantly and painlessly for a very small fee.

As you may know from previous posts, I operate a business called CryoPet. Rather than send your pets off to kennels whilst you go off somewhere for a break, thus incurring food, accommodation, carer and vetenary costs, you can contract us to vacuum seal and deep freeze you beloved pet until you get home.

We can do exactly the same for asylum seekers and those in detention. Close Manus, return the security guards, repatriate the costs, put human rights lawyers out of business and close down the people smuggler business.

In the event that any member of the Greens, ALP, refugee advocates or human rights lawyers wish to join them, we offer discounted rates for “Support Groups”.

I should note that we have not quite perfected the defrosting process but we can keep you safe until such time as the medical technology is available.

You can contact me at freezeyourassets.com.au

Hasbeen and others,
Just as an interesting sidelight now that the integrity of the "Service Providers" is coming into question now and the changing of the guard is about to occur with Wilson taking over.
Both the current provider of security services on MI and the Wilson group have between them over 800,000 workers around the world. Private armies, mercenaries, "Security consultants" whatever you want to call them but the job criteria from both for the "glamor and exciting" and "challenging" positions as security providers requires little more that a clean police record and an ability to get a child work card.
Police and/or military experience is looked on favorably.
Even a dolt of a ex prison guard can get a job.
The sub culture moronic mentality of these workers probably accounts for much of the tension in the detention camps.

Honourable Minister Morrison - Parliament House Caaanbra.

I am hereby offering my 44 foot ketch for the purposes of re locating the internees at Manus Island, Coonawarra, Darwin Airport, Wickham Point, Curtin (Derby) and others as required. I ask that each of these Irregular Arrivals be given some basic navigation skills - taught whilst still in the detention centre, as I can't do more than about 14 hrs straight on the helm so it would be nice to get a break on the voyage back.

I could do it for say about $5,000 per head and can only take 6 at a time per voyage. Considering it will take me around 30 years to get all these people back to where they came from...lets say somewhere on the southern coast of Java it will save the Federal government heaps in pensions apart from my old military service pension. Not to mention the $200,000 per minute it costs to operate the detention centres currently. It would also save on having to embarrass the poor sailors on Customs & RAN vessels and save on the repairs of laying them up for hull cracking repairs at HMAS Coonawarra. Old Pusser's mates of mine I served with who evidently (according to the media & the ADF Chiefs), have difficulty in adhering to international maritime borders e.g. couldn't find a bar girl with a fist full of $50's in Pat Pong Rd - or so it appears.

Minister Morrison I believe my plan has great merit, and I can send you my bank account details and pick up the first lot from Lombrum (my old home town by the way) and have them home, with loved ones and in no danger of being subject to the nasty nasty people on Manus back in time for the Hajj.

Cheers Cobber

Yours...etc Albie in Darwin. : )

I wonder if a boat load of white Brits illegally landed on a beach in the NT, whether we would be shunting them off to a caged concentration camp? Think not.

no WMDs in Iraq, no Osama in Afghanistan
in a pique of anger we kill a million, displace 4 million, misplace over a US$Trillion,
And blow them back into the Middle Ages.

For many generations, perhaps for all time, students of military history will look back in wonder and awe at our unequaled incompetence.

Viva Zion

Asylum Seekers For Sale! Now were are informed our very own Miss Prissy, Julie Bishop, has been sniffing around the Cambodians to see if they will take a few boat loads of refugees, a country renowned for creating refugees, not taking them in. Cambodia is one of the poorest countries in Asia, and totally undemocratic, how would they cope with an influx of asylum seekers? What next, cut a deal with North Korea!
All this Abbott government is doing with this kind of harebrained hawking of innocent people to dirt poor third world countries is disgracing Australia globally.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/australia-asks-cambodia-take-asylum-seekers

The Greens have rightfully called for the resignation of Morrison the Minister when it has now come to light that the trouble was inside the Manus Island gulag and not outside as Morrison had claimed. I did question earlier the roll of G4S in all this. There have been strong suspicions that G4S is running a private 'Rambo' operation and not doing the job they were originally employed to do, providing proper security.
I can fully understand how these unarmed innocent vulnerable people must feel knowing their very lives are under threat from armed aggressors, both inside and outside the camp.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/dead-wrong-on-manus-20140223-33all.html

What sort of reputation does Cambodia have when it comes to human rights. Maybe Malaysia doesn't look so bad.

YEBIGA,
What is this about a boat load of Brits. Racist nonsense! I have a British born friend came here at 4, been here 36 years but because he never took out citizenship and was caught twice in possession of drugs in an earlier life was to be deported. We lobbied to have him stay in Australia as all his family was in Australia. There is no racial preference as you seem to imply. We do not need criminals, but this friend had worked here as a panel beater all his working life and had reformed from selling drugs.

Don't dissimulate
A boat load of white Brits lands on a beach in the Territory. Are they sent to Nauru or Manus island?

Shaggy Dog, while I agree that change happens, one thing that never changes, is that you can only spend money once and, if your spending goes up, (welfare of all kinds) and your income does not increae (taxes collected) then at some point you are going to run out of money.

The preasure on our welfare system from this labor created mess is going to break us if the mess is not cleaned up, and to clean up, sometimes requires actions that may offend some.

However, at the end of the day, the simple solution to all this is to stop coming here.

The simple solution, remember the simple solution is costing one million every five minutes. Manus today Cambodia tomorrow malaya on wednesday.
Simple solution.

Josephus,
As you brought this up, its open for discussion on a public forum.
I don't know the circumstance surrounding your friend being "caught twice in possession of drugs" "reformed from selling drugs" In fact he was a drug dealer! That's makes it a bit more serious, was he convicted, did he do time? I am actually in favor of deportation of any non citizen who willfully commits a criminal offense. I have a near zero tolerance for drug dealers and its nonce to refer to an "earlier life", two times, two earlier lives, what kind of drugs, were his victims children, did any of his customers OD on his supplied drugs? was he drug addicted himself? What family, did he have a partner and children, or are family mum, dad etc?
How often we take a different attitude when its "one of our own".
Having said that I still hold a degree of flexibility as to how your friend should have been dealt with.

Yes Paul, I agree as any non citizen committed of a criminal offense should be deported. Just imagine the number of crimes that would not have been committed, given the vast majority are non Australians.

579, you just can't accept that any solution is in response to your beloved Rudds incompetence.

That one million dollars every five minutes you speak of wasn't needed prior to 2007, was it!

Every argument you come up with is in opposition to a problem your lot caused, then left for someone else to worry about.

Rudd should never be forgiven for his incompetence. In fact, he should forego his tax payer funded pension in an act of moral decency, because the mess he caused does not both him as he is a very wealthy man.

Paul,
While I agree with you about the deportation of non-citizen criminals, I think Josephus was illustrating that race or country is not a factor in applying our laws regarding deportation or illegal entry.

In one case of overstayers of a UK couple that were here for some 26 years. They ran a pet shop business in South Sydney and were highly regarded in the community. when found they were deported.

In another case, that disgusted me, a convicted drug dealer of undisclosed nationality was allowed to stay here because he claimed to father a child while here. The court ruled it would be unfair to deprive the child of the father. My opinion is that the child would be better off without the influence of such a father.

If a boat load of Brits were illegal entrants, I expect the law would equally apply and they would be detained. Persons of many nationalities and ethnicities have been refused entry if they did not have a valid visa. Detained and put on the next flight to point of embarkation.

The year is 2014 if you dwell in the past you will not ever move on.
As of today we are moving toward a solution that was denied years ago. By the very people you are defending. It was in their political interest not to go in favor of a solution. So rudd is not even in the equation.
It was Tony's big mouth that had the situation solved, now they are looking for more space, why, we are not allowed to know.

I agree with part of Paul's comment.
I think it is pointless to open another overseas detention centre.
I would announce that all new arrivals and those already in detention
will be sent back to their port of departure or to their admitted home country.
Do not give any of them the option of continuing in detention.

Indonesia would not like this but it is their responsibility.
I would make sure to send the crew back with them.

This cannot go on forever so no matter what the reaction that is what
will have to be done.

To all the uni students, psych majors, political science, law, ethics and other bleeding hearts, do gooders that write here on OLO please do yourselves and everyone including those you purport to defend i.e. the refugees/detainees a huge favour and consider real facts, not opinions of the masses. Yes I was one of you a few years ago - and guess what guys n gals it all comes down to this and simply this - that the government through or via whichever talking head, is not telling us the truth about any of the refugee/war/famine/ethno-geo-political situation.

So we are getting skewiffed information on which to base our premise and arguments is all I am saying.

In 2004, as a student of law, I wrote to the British government. Seeing as I am an Australian of Anglo/Aboriginal descendants, asking whether they (the Blair Government) would apologise and say sorry to the Scots, & Irish peoples who were displaced by the Potato Famine and the Evictions from the Crofts and Low Lands circa 1840 - 1860. Seems the British government isn't interested in "apologies" either.

The media (unless you research via direct source) & not via 'news' agencies mainly McMurdoch/Fairfax and Rupert's subsidiaries overseas...and even good old Al Jazeera has become somewhat tainted now, where once they could be relied upon.

It all went pear shaped after the Madrid and London Bombings, the lords and masters saw it fit to break all the good clean and pure news links http from internet that once were. The only way to get untainted news is to write (snail mail) direct from source...but beware the Goons infecting the International Mail Centres around Oz. Clyde in Sydney particularly, which is the major incoming international centre, having dedicated officers to intercept anything of interest especially if you post regularly.

Don't fool yourselves, a pseudonym won't keep you safe on-line. The levels of sophistication by which you can (and will) be tracked are mind boggling. Their Modus Operandi is to create a fear of being caught.

Welcome to the renewed age of Fascism - OZ/UK/US style!

Spindoc,

by the way - could I also put in an offer to do your refrigeration contract if the deal with Scotty to repatriate the poor souls on Manus falls through?

There used to be a big cool room on the old Tarangau Navy base just a few hundred metres from where the detention centre is now located.

Could chuck a few in the freezer next to the bacon perhaps? Would save $ on the exorbitant fees that G4S get charged for air con repairs currently considering it takes up to 4 hours to get keys and organise escorts to do the same 15 minute job at Wickham Point Detention centre.

Cheers...

Albie in Darwin

The friend I spoke of came here with his parents at four with older sisters, his parents and sisters took out citizenship shortly afterwards. Unfortunately he never considered it, he had a wife and child and a grandchild when they finally discovered he had spent two short stints in jail for possession and sale of Marinara. He dad no family or friends or prospect of employment in England.

Bazz,
While we have closed a couple od detention centres in Aus, we may have to open others overseas, if we stick to our policy of illegals not getting to Aus mainland.

The problem with sending them back to their admitted country is that their country will not accept them unless we can prove they are their citizens. Even if they desire to 'go home' they may have to satisfy that government they are indeed citizens.

I cannot see Indonesia accepting our illegals back in Indonesia without a massive gain for them.

The only way is to stop the illegals from wanting to come. This apparently is what is happening now with the reduction in numbers getting to Indonesia. I am surprized that it is happening so soon and easily. I fully expected we would have to withdraw from the UN refugee agreement and maybe open a detention centre on Macquarie Island. But stop them we must and I do not particularly care about how it is done.

Paul1405,
G4S are nothing more than re-badged mercenaries made up of a sub culture of ex British unionists with enormous chips on their shoulders because they can't get a job in our police or fire groups, Under performing Australian misfits who crave a gun in their hand and something to shoot at and a whole stack of foreign imports that speak the necessary languages and have the violence of their home country behind them and lost criminal records.

How many have noticed a teenager is in hospital after being attacked & stabbed just last night, by a bunch of 20 Africans we had admitted as refugees.

How many girls have to be raped by this scum, & how many kids & men have to be put in hospital, or killed, before our idiot bleeding wake up that these people are no better than those who may have oppressed them at home.

In Africa, & the middle east, the only difference between oppressor & oppressed is who are the strongest at any one moment. These people will never fit in to Oz. They by nature, will rip us off, or rip us apart, whichever is easiest for them.

I want to know that this gang have been chucked out of Oz, & if no country will take them, I know of a couple of sand keys in the Coral Sea that might do the trick.

This garbage show no gratitude, & should be shown the same respect they show us.

Has been,
No I had not noticed, can you give a link?

If these are refugees, they should be taken straight back to the camp we got them from.

We do not have to accept those who will not/cannot comply with our standards and laws. If the African refugees are causing problems then, if we must take in refugees, source them from, say, Burma. I have not heard of many problems with the Burmese.

Maybe we need a special visa for refugees, that enables us to send them straight back if they cause problems.

Sorry Banjo, it was I think in Melbourne. The kid was escorting a girl home from a private party. The story was the African youth were not allowed into the party, so lay in wait someone to extract revenge.

It was on either the Yahoo!7 or ninemsn website this morning, I'm sure it wouldn't have been the ABC, but gone now. I usually glance through these & a couple of others each morning, to see if anything interesting happened overnight.

Hasbeen & Banjo,

This one?

<Teen taken to hospital after stabbing in Cranbourne

4 hours ago February 24, 2014 1:02PM

THE mother of a teenager who was bashed and stabbed by a gang of about 20 teenagers has made a passionate plea to end knife violence.

Ben Phillips, 14, suffered punctured lungs after being slashed four times with a blade as he walked a girl home from a party in Cranbourne on Saturday night.

The group, whom witnesses say were mostly Sudanese or of African descent, had tried to gatecrash a nearby party 10 minutes before the frenzied attack.

Ben’s mother Leanne Phillips told 3AW radio this morning that curfews needed to be put in place...
“He was just doing a favour, walking a friend home, and they just got him.”..

Witnesses said the gang was lying in wait for anyone that left the Cranbourne party before attacking Ben as he walked a girl home.

After a brief discussion, the gang set on him, landing a flurry of punches and then kicked him as he lay on the ground.

The teenager was stabbed four times in the back during the brutal assault, with the blade puncturing both lungs.>

http://www.news.com.au/national/teen-taken-to-hospital-after-stabbing-in-cranbourne/story-fncynjr2-1226835252326

Hasbeen
No defending the attack but I note it was posted on the ABC Sun 230214 at 0730 AESDT.
I personally think Australian citizenship should not be granted for quite some time after arriving in Oz.
Put a foot out of line before that date and goodbye, after serving your sentence if applicable of course.
SD

Banjo,
I would put them on a plane and send them and if Indonesia sends
them back I would just put them back on and send them back & forwards
until they get the message. If they are put on Garuda then sooner or
later it will crash and solve all our problems.

By sending the crew back, where possible with them, you tie them to a
particular boat and maritime law may take hold under those circumstances.

Hi Shaggy.

Didn't their ABC studiously avoid mentioning that these attackers were Sudanese or of African descent. I know I did not see it on any ABC site.

Surely if these cowardly attackers are going to be identified & at least brought before the court, if not actually punished by that court, a suitable description would go a very long way towards identifying them.

I think it is fair to assume the ABC do not want these attackers found & punished, as it is bad for their objectives on boat people & refugees.

Hasbeen,
Found the item again, as you say no mention of race.
I do note that it is avoided at times by much of the media. Possibly legal issues influence some comment.
Calling a spade a spade is often avoided these days. Then again many wouldn't know the difference between a spade and a shovel.
Take it easy.
SD

Shaggy Dog, are making an unconscious pun ?
Or maybe a joke ?

Spade is an older English, maybe cockney slang for an African.

It is usually as simple as the prevailing political correctness causing news outlets and citizens generally to self-censor.

That is the whole purpose of political correctness. Powerful too. Most people don't even realise when they are self-censoring.

BTW, as a big hairy sportsman I am gutted by your use of that 's' word. Not gutted for myself mind, but for others who might be offended if and when they are encouraged to take offence after trawling through the Urban Dictionary of slang for 'that' word that is not even used in 'that' sense here. Hold the presses! PC in action.

Just read the latest reports on the riot on Manus & it certainly looks like the detainees really were asking for the trouble they got. The New Guinea blokes don't muck around if they get teased with insults. I back New Guinea on this one. Also, it's got absolutely nothing to do with Morrison so the leftie morons should just shut up.

Hasbeen, Kilcoy, a small town west of Brisbane, while always being a small, friendly country town, is said to be suffering from mobs of Sudanese meat workers, who roam the streets at night, to the point whereby many locals won't venture out. It's a disgrace.

The time is fast approaching whereby we as a nation are going to have to get rid of all these 457 workers so our own unemployed have some job prospects. It will also have to become, take what job you get, or be cut off. Because I'm afraid the good old days are gone.

And I agree that anyone coming here, AS AN INVITED GUEST should have a probationary period, say five years, before they become accepted.

Now if they choose to have a family in that time, then it is they who place their family at risk of deportation, as it is they who control their own actions.

Me personally, I am sick to death of needing an interpreter to know the names of most crime offenders in this country.

Yes rehctub, it is going on all over Oz.

The people of much of Logan, {Brisbane] are not game to walk the streets after dark, & anytime in some housing commission areas. There it is a war between Aboriginals & Islander communities, which engulfs anyone nearby.

My soon to be son in law, comes from Penrith [NSW]. His family are trying to get out, but having trouble selling their home. The gangs of Somali youth wandering the streets make it unsafe on the street, or even in the homes. No one is interested in buying there at all.

They can of course thank our elites, particularly academia & the inner city chatters, who never have to confront the results of their stupidity in forcing multicultural & refugee intake upon us peasants.

Yes Indi, the unfortunate part about allowing people from often troubled countries, to sell here, is that many of them bring their baggage with them.

I say, leave it at the front door, or leave.

One can't help but owner why our forefathers went to war.

I say, leave it at the front door, or leave.
rehctub,
Agree but what can we do about the locally grown morons courtesy of australian leftist politics ?

Wow, one of our economic refugees just hit the jackpot! With G4S given the flick off Manus Island a new mob have moved in, Transfield Services. Who are Transfield Services, I hear you ask? None other than the same bunch that until October 2013 were chaired by Abbotts good mate Tony Shepherd. I hear you ask, who is Tony Shepherd? The same Tony Shepherd who now heads up Abbotts goon squad in the form of 'The Commission of Audit' a plumb job if ever there was one! How much of a sweetner' is Transfield Services getting from the taxpayer, $1,220,000,000. I hear you ask,how much did the next bidder want for the job? Nothing, there wasn't another bidder, when you are spending $1.2 billion of taxpayers money there is no need for a second quote, or is there? Great economic managers that mob in Canberra!
What about those poor PNG, $7 a day guards, that used to work for G4S, no problem they all got jobs with Transfield Services to guard the gulag, and most likely a new shirt to boot! What about Rreza Barati, the 23 year old young man killed inside the detention centre, he gets a late night press release from Minister Morrison, retracting his previous untruth about the location for the poor fellas death.
p/s I hope you got in early and picked up a bunch of Transfield shares, they are up 25%. I wounder if Sheeperd, has a swag of em'?

Paul,
The quote would be also to feed and house the detainees. It is not all going to Transfield bosses and shareholders as you imply. It is a contract of service to manage the detention Center.

Economic managers, one million every five minutes on the debt.

Josephus,

Can't give you a full report as to exactly what the Aussie taxpayer is getting for his $2,000,000 /day. Australian journalist are denied access to the gulag, so they can't give you a complete report. Well we do known Transfield Services are providing $7/day PNG guards, they got them from G4S, and some leaky tents, also got them from G4S, along with a bit of tucker for the prisoners, also leftovers from G4S. I'm sure TS will pocket a quid or two, what do you think?

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/we-need-to-see-manus-island-20140224-33bk1.html

They are good aren't they, these lefties.

They stuff the system.

Send us broke.

Then try to blame the new government for the ongoing costs.

I wonder if they actually believe their own crap, of if they simply hope some dills will?

Too right Indi, and it appears we can add the Defunked NBN to the list of failures left for someone else to clean up.

There is even talk about cutting our losses and scrapping the white elephant.

Meanwhile, the two fools who caused these messes, along with most other projects they failed to achieve, or at least allowed them to happen, Rudd and Gillard, are on something like $180,000 each OER YEAR OF OUR TAXES FOR LIFE.

I sand by my comment of ECONOMIC VANDALS.

No Hasbeen, they do really believe it.
It is sometimes called lack of commonsense and sometimes lack of intelligence.
Watch them on TV, you can almost see them frothing at the mouth.
Certainly they look like their blood pressure is up.
They are all signals that they mean it and it is not just an act.

Yes, these "Lefties" are terrible people.
Imagine, they're calling for compassion
and humanity in dealing with asylum seekers.

They're the so called "socialists" who are ruining
the country for good, simple, honest, conservative
people like so many on this forum.

The following link is taken from an Editorial
by The Age newspaper:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-age-editorial/its-not-just-about-boats-mr-morrison-20140224-33d10.html

Foxy, I will ask this question again, given that your pro them coming, how do you propose we feed, cloath and house them without stripping basics from our own people.

Then, once our unemployment meltdown actually hits us, where do you propose we find jobs for them, without taking potential jobs away from our own unemployed, many of whom have paid taxes.

As I say, you can have all the compassion in the world, but seriously, at what point will you see that we simply domt have the money.

We might have quite a while ago, but we hav'nt any more.

Surely you must understand that.

Foxy you are too much of a softy, wanting to believe the best in everyone.

I am totally sure that less than 2% of these people are actually refugees, in any danger. The fact that once allowed in, they go back to find a wife, quite safely, & often a number of times, really does prove my point.

Dear rehctub,

We are signatories to the Refugee Convention and
we have certain obligations under that Convention.
Perhaps it would be wise to look at what other
countries do with asylum seekers who are also
signatories to the Convention:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/asylum-seekers-what-other-countries-do-20120813-244fs.html

Dear Hassie,

The man I've come to know on this forum has always been
a fair-minded and compassionate bloke. So what's happened
to him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0MHRSFz6FM

Where we have been, and it is all down to Rudd who is now receiving $180,000 PA fully indexed against average weekly earnings AND he gets that first class air travel, limos and an office with staff in the CBD.

I wonder if they actually believe their own crap, of if they simply hope some dills will?
Hasbeen,
You're still thinking too highly of these idiots. They're so stupid that they're actually proud of their stupidity. I'd dearly love to see the figures of how many of them are clinging to the public apron. I can't imagine any of them getting accepted in the private sector after all, the private sector has to make a profit to function.

As far as we know there are about 2400 asylum seekers that will come under the control of Transfield Services on Manus Island and Nauru at a cost of about $2 million a day, that works out in my book at over $800/per day for each detainee. The average cost per prisoner in Australian jails is around $300 to $400/day. What are they guarding 2400 Ivan Milat's.
Can any of the Abbott insiders on this forum tell us what exactly the taxpayer is getting from this mob for $1.22 billion.

Dear Paul,

That's easy - they're hoping to be re-elected by
appealing to their suporters.
After all the Libs (according to news reports) spent
more than double what Labor spent during the last
election. And as long as they gain office - its worth
it to them. They'll do whatever it takes - and they can always
blame Labor for spending too much on necessary reforms while
the Libs cut these same reforms and try to get their money back
or by donations from their rich supporters.
It's a win/win situation for them.

2400 Ivan Milat's.
Paul1405,
You might be closer to the mark than you ever dared to hope with that figure.

Indi,

Like a number of the usual suspects on here, are you totally spooked by Abbott and Morrison over the asylum seeker issue? I sarcastically refer to a mass murdering monster, and you jump in and give it some credence. The conservatives on here like to scream about Labor spending, but let Abbott get away with blowing $1.22 billion without as much as a tender process. Where is the consistency? Boo! Have you come down off the ceiling yet? ha ha

Obviously Paul you are lucky enough not to live where any of the vermin Rudd encouraged have moved in to terrorise the locals, & are too stupid to listen to those who have some experience of them.

I wonder if, with your attitude, you would survive a meeting with my son, who has such experience, & doesn't suffer idiots gracefully.

Lexi sweetie, perhaps it could be that my son has announced he is to have yet another operation.

They can not fix the shape of his skull the vermin "Lebs" fractured in 4 places, but the head aches have almost stopped, & the double vision has gone, apart from when he gets exceptionally tired.

This one is to install a pad of mesh under the skin into which fat & flesh is supposed to grow.

This is to hopefully fill the depression running from his temple down his check.

Please don't ever expect me to approve of any humanitarian admission of so called refugees to Oz. We have experienced their gratitude

individual
2400 Ivan Milat's.
These blokes are far worse that Milat could ever be.
They have been brought up in blood baths. They thrive on violence. They are time bombs waiting to explode in our society.
Half the camp guards are second generation refugees anyway.

This is a much-vexed issue, causing many of us much grief, whatever side of the fence we may be on - whether willing to welcome as many refugees as possible, or those who prefer we accept none.

No easy solutions; but Manus, Nauru, Christmas Island, or mainland detention are not acceptable solutions; and 'turning back the boats' is at best a temporary 'stop-gap'.

We know there are many millions of refugees (and/or displaced persons), and their numbers are growing as strife swells around the globe, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Myanmar, Sri-Lanka, Central African Republic, the Congo, and elsewhere. Millions living in terrible deprivation, or barely surviving in refugee camps with the help of the UNHCR and various NGO's and charities.

'We' cannot take them all, the 'developed world' cannot take them all - or at least is unwilling to do so.
I can see only one solution - all displaced persons should be accommodated in acceptable conditions in refugee camps established in their 'home' countries, or in those adjoining countries to which they have fled. All in the same 'boat'; all being catered for by organised international agencies, and under reliable UN protection, until such time as the strife in their home countries can be resolved, or until alternative 'resettlement' can be arranged.
No 'queue jumpers', no forced diaspora, no favoritism for those who can afford to pay bribes.

All displaced by life-threatening strife should be assisted to reach the safe-haven of the nearest internationally-maintained refugee camp, and the full thrust of international intervention focused both on the maintenance of those camps and on the diplomatic or, if necessary, the armed resolution of the foundational causes of these displacements.

On this model, 'unconventional' arrivals would be processed quickly, with those fitting 'refugee' criteria found immediate resettlement places, and all others rapidly deported to the most appropriate international refugee camp.
Indonesia and Malaysia could adopt similar arrangements.

My rationale: provide equal treatment to all, equal compassion, equal opportunity - with genuine hope for a better future, for all.
(And, let's not wreck the planet by overpopulating, please.)

Hasbben,
The Lexis & Paul1405's of this world would probably expect you to view your son's terrible experience as a good opportunity for character building or some similar idiotic & idealistic view. My workmate's son was bashed by islanders & he is in similar shape. I feel for all of you the exact opposite of what I feel for the Lexis & Paul1405's. I just hope that they will grow up one day & become worthy citizens.

Half the camp guards are second generation refugees anyway.
chrisgaff1000,
That should keep the homosexual lobbyists happy for some time.

Dear Hassie,

I'm sorry about your son.
And I understand your feelings.

My nephew as I've told you in the past was beaten
up by some thugs when he came to the aid of a young
female on the campus where he was studying near Lismore.
He was beaten so badly that he was in a coma for some time
and had a plate put into his skull. He's brain-damaged
and will never be normal again.

cont'd ...

Dear Hassie,

Being upset and blaming those that did these vile
acts is understandable. However, holding it against
entire groups of people who have done no harm and are
simply seeking asylum - is a different
matter all together.

Dear Individual,

What you feel is of no consequence to me.
However if you want to be taken seriously
in an adult debate - then I suggest in future
you stop referring to people who disagree
with you as "morons," unless you want to be
perceived as one.

Cheers.

Foxy,
You are so right, some can't distinguish between a personal event in their lives and a broader issue. I do not respond to the personal attacks from this Hasbeen and Individual people etc.
My Aunty, my mothers sister, what I remember of her was a kind and gentle person. Years ago, aunty was bashed and later died, from head injuries, bashed with a bottle. Who bashed her, her husband, seems aunty, suffered years of physical abuse from a drunken violent man. The uncle was part aboriginal, did my mum hate aboriginal people for what happened to her sister, no. Mum was not well educated, only went as far as primary school, but had enough brains to realise it was down to the man and not the race. Uncle died in jail, and when mum heard that, I would have expected her to say "good" but no she said something like " He's gone now, I'll say a pryer for his soul." Mum was a good Catholic and a more forgiving person that I could be.

Dear Paul,

Thank You for sharing your personal family
experience with me on this forum.
Your aunt sounds like a remarkable woman.

There is so much distrust and hatred in the world.
And hatred is the problem. Not this group or that.
Hatred itself is the cancer, that threatens the
survival of the species. Only a massive intention
to embrace the ways of non-violence - in any and
every way that such an intention could express itself
can propel humanity beyond the trajectory toward its
own destruction. We're like a missile that must
change course.

We need more tolerance, compassion, and new ways of
thinking if we are to survive on this planet.

Foxy,

"....We need more tolerance, compassion, and new ways of
thinking if we are to survive on this planet".

It's not us but those whose creed tells them to conquer the infidels and to bring all within the fold of their Islamic faith that need to change.

Any ideas on getting them to see reason?

Paul, it is time to grow up buddy, fairyland is overflowing. I know it is difficult for some to see anything, it is a factor of keeping your eyes tight shut.

It is hard to give up illusions of a lifetime, even when the evidence is kicking you in the head.

Any one who can't see the expanding no go areas in our cities is a bloody idiot. Sorry folks, but if the cap fits & all that.

My sons "crime" was to walk home from the train, in a street only a kilometer from a Muslim enclave. Standard procedure is to intimidate residents nearby. It lowers the real estate prices, making expanding the enclave cheaper.

For god sake open your eyes.

Hasbeen,
You are wasting your time trying to get foxy or Paul to change their views, They live in a fantasy world of ideology where practicality is non existent.

Rather than impose harsh measures to deter the illegals from coming here, Foxy is again advocating that we fly them here from Indonesia. Paul, being a greenie, wants an open door policy for any who wish to come. I do wonder how some people survive after weaning.

They have no practical sense at all. I wonder if they ever had to fend for themselves. I know a lot of young are idealistic but most grow out of it and become more pragmatic as they age, but not all.

Still it is worth correcting them as others do read OLO and am sure want to get opinions based on practical experience.

On another thread Foxy said I had found a kindred spirit in OTB. The truth is I posted to correct a wrong impression his opinion was portraying. I do not neccessarally agree with all that some others say.

Dear Is Mise,

It is difficult to reason with extremists of
any persuasion.

....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0MHRSFz6FM

Where we have been, and it is all down to Rudd who is now receiving $180,000 PA fully indexed against average weekly earnings AND he gets that first class air travel, limos and an office with staff in the CBD.

Yes, ONTHEBEACH, not a bad reward for not even three COMBINED years of utter incompetence.

....Can any of the Abbott insiders on this forum tell us what exactly the taxpayer is getting from this mob for $1.22 billion.

Paul, it's a pleasure, the tax payer is getting just what the majority voted fir in 2007, that being the spoils of the incompetent mob they (PROUDLY NOT ME) voted for.

All I can say to ANYONE who voted for that fool is, take a bow!

Banjo, "On another thread Foxy said I had found a kindred spirit in OTB. The truth is I posted to correct a wrong impression his opinion was portraying"

Maybe that is unintentionally portraying through brevity :). Nonetheless, comment that straightens out possible misunderstanding through omission is always welcome.

rehctub,

I am not the one to ask to defend the expenditure of any government. I am the one who is forever demanding that government agencies ensure that value for (taxpayers') money is always obtained.

I am still challenging the idiotic political correctness that dictates that the military are 'guarded' by civilian security staff (with 'wheel' guns*!), who in turn call the police who then call the real police to deal with a terrorist threat on a military base.

*revolvers

However I do know that our politicians have remuneration, conditions and retirement benefits that are second to none AND they have managed to reclassify a heap of roles/titles that can earn, make that pay, handsome returns to practically every one of them in Parliament. So they must all agree on that anyhow.

Saltpetre,
They can bring as many refugees and asylum seekers here as they want to just so long as they have a trade or profession and are prepared to work in the country centers for at least five years whilst they get their citizenship which must include a rider that says if they commit an indictable offense they will, not might, be deported.
Good honest people we want, need right now but for some reason we keep bringing social security dependent drains and their families.
Thank you Mr. Whitlam, Mr. Rudd and Madam Gillard.

Banjo need to resort to lying to make your point.

You said; " Paul, being a greenie, wants an open door policy for any who wish to come. I do wonder how some people survive after weaning.

You are a rather conceited liar at that!

On 22nd Feb I posted on this thread;
"No one, and certainly not I, are advocating an open door policy, such a policy would create more problems than it would solve."

Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 22 February 2014 11:33:08 AM

Hasbeen, its a pity you would come onto a public forum and resort to using your son's unfortunate circumstance to verbally "bash" innocent people who are confined to Manus Island, and who have never had the remotest of interaction with you or your son.

Foxy,

"It's not us but those whose creed tells them to conquer the infidels and to bring all within the fold of their Islamic faith that need to change."

Them's not extremists but just ordinary Muslims that follow the Qur'an;

"The Quran is the central religious text of Islam, which Muslims believe to be a revelation from God.".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

[Deleted. Religious abuse.]

Paul it is a pity that people who are too thick to know which way is up, come on a forum & promote bringing proven undesirables into our country.

referring to people who disagree
with you as "morons,"
Foxy,
With all due respect I need to remind you that you're terribly wrong again. I do not call them morons because they don't agree with me. I call them that name because they don't make any attempt to think logically. They do not give consideration to those who always put up the funding & clean up the mess after the morons have made yet anoter stuff-up. They always condemn others who made tough decisions rather than some frivolous idealistic one. So, tell me what else such people should be called if the term moron is not sufficiently bad enough to make them wake up ?

Hasbeen and others, I consider Australia as still being a humane society, My view on asylum seekers is clear and unequivocal and has never deviated. Persons seeking asylum in Australia should be considered on a case by case basis. Those deemed to be genuine refugees should be allowed to reside permanently in Australia and ultimately receive citizenship. Those found NOT to be refugees should be deported, and providing they fit the relevant criteria can apply to immigrate to Australia through the normal channels. In the intervening period asylum seekers should be treated with respect, and allowed to maintain their dignity. It goes without saying all people should be treated humanly.
The issue of "boats" is something we also have to deal with. I have never been in favor of people undertaking the hazardous and often deadly voyage to Australia by small boat. I do however recognize their desperation in undertaking such a dangerous voyage and do not see it as a criminal act on their part. I believe Australia has to do all things humanly possible, within the law and with regard to our international responsibilities to discourage the practice of boat arrivals.
Some here are simply being unreasonable, applying some kind of hysteria to the issue, calming all asylum seekers are criminals and terrorists, no doubt some would go to the extreme that they all should be shot, men women and children.
This stigmatizing and stereotyping of groups of people has gone on the world over, often leading to mass extermination in the name of "protecting" the good from the evil. I think its call genocide at times.

A bit of light reading for those who don't know.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007043

Paul1405,

So despite your protestations to the contrary you are rooting for an open door policy where anyone can enter Australia and appeal forever despite where they came from and other significant considerations, such as destruction of papers and crafted stories.

Contrary to your disgraceful allegations about the motivation and principles of those who oppose the Greens open door policy which you slavishly follow, both major parties and a huge majority of citizens oppose for very good reasons, one being to destroy the smugglers' business model, which thankfully the government has now done and done convincingly.

It is interesting in a predictably way that you would have the gall and arrogance to post a link to an article on genocide when your Greens oppose young Aussie couples having the children they want, demanding that they instead support the open door immigration policy you ascribe to, ostensibly to alleviate over-population elsewhere and for a 'diversity'. A 'diversity' policy that is the ultimate solution of Greens and culture-cringing 'Progressives' to destroy of essential foundations of the life of the Australian national group, especially the 'whites', with the aim of annihilating the group themselves.

You are for instance in lock-step on this with Foxy who is up-front in her disgust for the Australian people as 'inferior' and needing to be so far diluted by migration of any other cultural groups as to be insignificant and hopefully bred out in time.

In short, no only do you support the people smugglers business model and would have the deaths at sea continue as before, your open door immigration and other social initiatives are aimed at genocide of your hated and despised Australian compatriots.

Dear Is Mise,

Muslims like Christians are a diverse group.
They not only come from different cultures, and have
linguistic differences but -
not all of them wear burqas, have beards,
and practice their religion in exactly the same way.
Therefore making sweeping generalisations about them
really does not add anything constructive
to the discussion.

Paul,
You said, "Some here are simply being unreasonable, applying some kind of hysteria to the issue, calming all asylum seekers are criminals and terrorists, no doubt some would go to the extreme that they all should be shot, men women and children.
This stigmatizing and stereotyping of groups of people has gone on the world over, often leading to mass extermination in the name of "protecting" the good from the evil. I think its call genocide at times".

It is not hysteria, it is reality which you apparently do not accept.

All boat arrivals ARE breaking Australian laws by entering without a valid visa. However I have not seen any advocating they should be shot, as you claim. They can be, and are, detained because they are breaking our laws. Can you state any other reason as to why we can detain them. Persons that enter with a valid visa and claim asylum are free to go about their business while their claim is assessed.

They are stereotyped because they are entering our country illegally with the intention of lying to our immigration officials, firstly by destroying any identification. Their intention is to deceive.

Can you give any rational reason as to why a genuine refugee would prefer to pay far more to enter on a leaky boat than fly here in safety? I can and it begins with them not being genuine.

If you do not believe in an open door policy, then you are out of step with the greens as the party apparently does.

It irks Labor and greens supporters that the LNP has succeeded thus far in preventing more arrivals and they are now resorting to personal attacks on the Minister. Frankly, the Minister is doing a great job and far quicker than I expected. I am sure most citizens look forward to further reductions in illegal arrivals and the closure of more detention centres.

You should be celebrating the fact that none have drowned in recent times, if you are so compassionate about these illegals.

Foxy, (referring to Muslim illegal immigrants) "Therefore making sweeping generalisations about them really does not add anything constructive to the discussion"

That is not advice you take yourself though. It is all directed one way apparently as evidenced by your contemptuous posts on Aussie past and present. For example,

<Therefore making sweeping generalisations about them
really does not add anything constructive
to the discussion.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 February 2014 10:35:06 AM>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6251&page=2

This example,

<Foxy.

With respect, it was an outrageously offensive, elitist thing to say about Australia. You may not intend it, but it comes across as the crass arrogance of the archetypal European toff dismissing Australians. That is if any Europeans actually know that Australia exists, or cares.

A cultural cringe,
"It's important to remember Australia before the
waves of migration. It was dull, self-satisfied
and joylessly conformist. Not sinply(sic) null and boring,
but nullarboring. Not merely mindless, but lobotomised".
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 26 February 2014 9:26:32 PM>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6251&page=24

Foxy,

"The Qur'an is the central religious text of Islam, which Muslims believe to be a revelation from God.".

That is not a sweeping generalization but a relevant particular.

So far you haven't answered my questions.

Musical Instrument,

I exposed you as a liar yesterday, respond to that first and then I will answer your correspondence.

Paul1405.

Dear Is Mise,

I have answered your question. But apparently
you either don't understand or it's not what you want
to hear.

Cheers.

cont'd ...

Dear Is Mise,

Perhaps this link may help:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/12/13/comment-changing-our-view-muslim-australia

Foxy,

I said, "It's not us but those whose creed tells them to conquer the infidels and to bring all within the fold of their Islamic faith that need to change.

Any ideas on getting them to see reason?"

That was the question and you didn't give an answer.

So, any ideas on getting them to see reason?

Your link was informative, there are 500,000 or so Muslims in Australia and only approx 25% of them identify with the fundamental Qur'an and, presumably don't identify as Australians.

That's a sizable Fifth Column for us to have.

Dear Is Mise,

Again - you're making assumptions about people you don't know.
And that goes back to my original post to you about
sweeping generalisations.

Instead of talking about "fifth columns," and how
certain Muslims don't see themselves as Australians
- why not simply take people
as you find them and give them a chance? Perhaps
through discussion and inter-action you just may find out
that the problems you thought existed were really of
our own creation.

Foxy,

From the link that you gave,

"Only 20-30% of Muslims construct their identity on the basis of their religious practice, writes Saman Shad.".

That is from one Fifth to near one Third.

Their religious practice is based on the Qur'an and thus they form a sizeable Fifth Column.

How about answering the question?

is Mise,
Don't jump the queue please, I'm still waiting for Foxy to answer my last question to her.

Dear Individual,

As I've stated to you many times in the past -
people in different walks of life may interpret
the same phenomenon - whether it is a PM's
policies, a religious doctrine - et cetera in
very different ways. And as I've stated to you
previously people tend to see the world from a
viewpoint of subjectivity - an interpretation
based on personal values, their background, training,
and prior experiences. Therefore what's logical to
you may not be to someone else and calling people
"morons" simply because according to your sense
of logic you perceive them to be illogical does not
necessarily make them so. It's simply your own
perception according to your own values. Your
perception may appear illogical to others.

Dear Is Mise,

In this country as far as I'm aware we respect people's
right to be different. This is one of the foundations
of Australian democracy and all people are free to
follow any religion they choose so long as its
practices do not break any Australian law. Therefore
your question as to how I would make a certain religious
group see reason - why would I want to make them see
reason, and who's reason?
And how arrogant would that be of me to question
their religious beliefs. Or anyone's religious beliefs
for that matter. Who am I to do that? The people to do that
sort of questioning would have to be our authorities - in
the case of any law breakage or infriction.

There's nothing more to be said.

Your perception may appear illogical to others.
Lexi,
thank you for the explanation. I have spoken with many who have & are making positive contributions to this country & its society & they more or less always agree with my views.
It's only those on the left who do not contribute to the building of our society who vehemently dispute my views. This may be a good thing in your eyes but let me assure that those who are genuine & care are not found on the left. You see doing the right thing for Australia is to protect its society from evil not promoting its exposure to it.

Dear Individual,

Just a reminder that we have values and principles
in this country that reflect strong influences on
Australian history and culture. These include
Judeo-Christian ethics, a British political heritage
and the spirit of European Enlightenment. Distince
Irish and non-conformist attitudes and sentiments
have also been important. However our values and
principles should not be seen as a quest for conformity
or a common set of beliefs.

On the contrary, respect for the free-thinking individual
and the right to be different are foundations of
Australian democracy.

I note that two Australian women have been charged with a racial attack;

"Two young women have been charged with serious assault after a partially blind indigenous man was bashed and racially vilified on a Gold Coast bus."

I also note none of the 'usual suspects' have jumped on here to attack this racist attack. Naturally if two young Muslim men had racially vilified and attacked a white partially blind Australian women their keyboards would be running hot with anger and indignation. Strange that, draw your own conclusion about such people.

Dear Paul,

I wonder how do we make those two young women
see reason? And what percentage of our
population holds those sort of beliefs?
Interesting.

yep these 2 young woman symptonmatic of a godless secular society. Why is anyone surprised.

Foxy,

So you agree that religious instructions to beat one's wife are quite alright in the context of religious tolerance in Australia; how quaint.

Dear Is Mise,

Now you've simply stirring.
Try again!

Runner, there is no indication of the religious orientation of these two women, if indeed they have any religion at all. For all we know they could be a couple more of that bigoted Christian brigade or lunatic Muslim mob.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/racist-gold-coast-bus-attack-victim-complaint-girls-involved

One of the dangers (undesirable side effects) of the Abbott governments asylum seeker policy is, and I believe this to be most likely unintentional, on Abbott and Co's part. As the government acts with intolerance, there are those in society who take the wrong message from it all, seeing their own personal intolerant attitudes as also being, justifiable and socially acceptable. More than one Muslim person has told me they have been racially abused several times, and these days not always by the usual types, the knuckle dragging Neanderthal, but more "respectable" citizens.

con't

con't

I recently got involved in an argument in a supermarket with a bloke. The woman in front of him was about 60 of Indian extract with a younger woman, possibly her daughter. They were in a 12 items or less lane, and they had more than 12 items, they had about 30. The bloke waited until she was being served before he opened up about the number of items they had, and it being an express lane. The older woman, well spoken, apologized, saying she didn't see the sign. Her apology wasn't good enough for this bloke, he carried on like a pork chop throwing racial insults at the women. I and a couple of others intervened tell this bloke what a jerk he was. I told him plainly racial vilification was a crime and if he keep it up the police would be called, the women didn't want trouble, nor did his partner, telling him to shut up! The real unfortunate thing about all this along with this jerk was a young woman about his age, and worse a young girl about 8 years old, probably his partner and daughter. What kind of message was "Dad" giving to his daughter. I suspect maybe the next day at school, when the Indian kid in front, spends too much time at the water fountain, the young girl will have all the right adjectives to unload on that kid.

@Paul1405, Saturday, 1 March 2014 7:57:52 AM

Why not post the link? That way all get to read the comments of the police who are independent, unlike the sad tabloid journalism that created the story line in the hope (you too?) for a long ride on the 'racism' bandwagon.

Here is a link for those interested,

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/queensland/gold-coast-bus-attack-two-women-leave-elderly-man-upset-and-shaken-20140228-33pyl.html

I note that the women also abused a mother with a pram. I wonder what her infant was doing at the time. Who cares? Not topical for a headline ATM, apparently. Also, the old gent didn't identify as indigenous but that is the spin to add editorial 'colour' to the crude Bogan behaviour and speech of these 'Housos' on their day out.

In any event it is a common occurrence on the Glitter Strip and almost everywhere else to encounter such rude and abusive men and women, not necessarily young either. On another day the story line would possibly have indulged in speculative spin on alcohol and youth, it is highly likely the two would have been drinking. Or earlier, on the raunch behaviour that is so common among young women as to be trite to mention.

The media make the news. Most people know that. The real story was not judged 'sexy' enough for prominence: which was the swift and certain police work and the very public-spirited actions by those on the bus and by the public generally. But that wouldn't sell to an audience with the mental age of an eight year old, who need their daily fix of 'ain't it awful' to get their self-righteous dander up.

Sadly, there are people acting badly everywhere. Any who volunteer to help the elderly will have many stories of elder abuse, such as drivers trying to force them off the road, ferals spitting at them and general lack of respect. It is lack of support for police and soft Courts that encourage it.

But importantly, elders are not respected in modern, 'Progressive' Australia. Politicians and others who need excuses for poor planning and blowing budgets regularly blame seniors and wish them dead.

Foxy,

Not stirring at all, you defend religious freedom and think that 25% of the followers of the Qur'an are true believers.

You referred us to that site on which Saman Shad wrote "Only 20-30% of Muslims construct their identity on the basis of their religious practice,"
That is on the Qur'an.

So, got any ideas on how we can change the thinking of this minority in Islam?

As I said earlier, my Muslim friends in Bankstown are selling up and moving to a decidedly non-Islamic area, because of their FEAR of what is happening around them.
They are Nizaris and are thus members of a vulnerable minority.

Dear Is Mise,

Freedom of religion is a value that is important in
modern Australia.

And as long as their practices do not break Australian law -
they are free to practice their religion.

Making them see reason?

Whose reason and why?

Paul1405
I am sure the Indian woman knew it was 12 or under lane.
It only when they get caught that it becomes a mistake.
I fully concur with the bloke who took her to task.
I have done the same thing and waited for the good Samaritan outside the super market.
I am sure he will never come to the aid of another non Australian.
Indians mate? Look what they did do England and South Africa and Fiji.

And Chris you supposed to be an x copper? Throwing gays into the Parramatta River. Please tell what did you do with the 'good Samaritan' outside the super market. Given em' a good old fashioned bashing, give em' some of your legendary copper abuse. You cant be for real, just a stirrer! In real life your are most likely some mealy mouthed wimp, who wouldn't say boo! Then comes onto a forum like this to pump himself up! Wow!

@chrisgaff1000, Saturday, 1 March 2014 5:44:45 PM

On the subject of unprincipled line jumping, there is a very funny sketch in Series 8 of 'Curb your Enthusiasm' (US sitcom) featuring another opportunist line jumping pest, the 'Chat and Cut' exponent.

What the 'Chat and Cut' interloper does is feign a familiar relationship to hold a conversation with someone well advanced in the queue and joins the queue at that point. Of course people fume in silence but not Larry David.

Worth seeing.

Chriss.

The Indians didn't do anything to England, South Africa or Fiji, it was the British.

The problem Sub-Continentals in England are mostly Pakistanis and Britain invited them in at the time that the British stuffed up in India when they partitioned the country against the will of the majority of the people.

The Greens, with Labor support will instigate a Senate inquiry into the events of February 16-18 on Manus Island.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/21775396/greens-seek-inquiry-into-manus-island-riot/