O sung wu, in my opinion the rot started when governments decided to change apprenticeships to 'self assessment' and do away with trade colleges.

I will use butchery as an example.

Trade colleges, despite being behind in practical methods, were very thorough in tech and, as a resut of not having to attend the tech sessions, a complete knowlegpdge of the industry, whichY I was tought, is no longer being tought unless the student goes hunting.

Another major problem is school based apprenticeships, because although great in theory, one day a week is pointless as many students need a refresher from last week, a problem with is amplified by the average decline in educational standards. A better system in my view would be to do two weeks work and one weeks school. Of cause, there are the exceptions.

Now butchery is something that can be picked up quite easily, but I doubt engineering is, especially if one has poor math skills.

Another problem is the uprisingnof all these RTO's, as their main aim is to GET PAID, and the only way they get paid is to sign off apprentices.

The last problem is interfering parents, as many employers are now terrified of unfair dismissal or sexual harassment laws.

Take India for an example. Kids live in cardboard boxes on the footpath just so they can gain an education, whike many of our kids look for a job that doesn't interfere with their social lives, and most of them are addicted to Facebook on their phones and don't really care about job.

How many times have you heard the checkout operator say, only 7 miniute to go epwhen you ask them how their day is going.

Pretty much sums it up!

I trained at least 20 apprentices and only 2 qualified, as the rest couldnt hack the discipline I insisted on.

My two who made it though are excellent tradesman.

Hi (again) REHCTUB...

That's disgusting, absolutely disgusting ! You had twenty apprentices, and only two struck it out, and became competent tradesmen. I've heard similar stories Butch, from others who claim they can't find suitable people to undertake an apprenticeship.

Yet a couple of months ago we had an electrician do some minor work for us (only a young bloke, though qualified), and he worked for this contractor, and he was so happy to earn the amount of money he was getting !

Only in his early twenties, he was well on the way to obtain his 10% deposit for his first home, all in his early twenties. Further, he owned outright, his shiny new Ford Ute, with the big V8, and all 'tricked up' with wide wheels etc. Yet he doesn't owe a cent on the thing ! All because of the good money he earned as a 'sparky' ! He did however, reluctantly admit as a first year, even second year apprentice, the wages weren't marvellous. Nevertheless, on gaining his ticket, the bucks began rolling in. And good on him for applying himself zealously, both to his trade and to his employer!

You mentioned Butch something I believe is a very important vocational component indeed, for ALL of us...Discipline ! The discipline to get up and go to work, arrive on time, dress appropriately for the job, groom one's self, consistent with the requirements of the job, perform a day's work, for a day's pay, take a sickie only when one's sick, and all the other myriad of important details one must observe, in order to keep your job, and improve your skills. You never stop learning eh Butch ?

And for this reason, I absolutely agree with you, 'discipline', is often found lacking in many of these young people these days, and that's an incredibly sad situation for our country, don't you think ?

I can't agree with you rehctub, that in school apprenticeships are a waste of time. My wife ran the local high school system for the P&C, as it was not working when run by teachers. They did not select the best kids, letting any in, often kids who just wanted a day off, out of class. Employers had got sick of useless kids wasting their time, so would not offer places.

It took a while, but with careful selection of the kids it took off.

She sold it as getting first option on the pick of the years best kids to the employers, & as a chance to find out about a trade, with a good chance of employment at school end, to the kids. The kids did not learn much about a trade, but lots about work, & employers knew which kids were suitable for their business.

The kids learnt that many trades require more math than most university degrees, & the better ones knuckled down at school. A friend who was a high school math & biology teacher is now teaching math at tech. He tells that most electrical trade courses require more math than even the better kids have from school. He loves teaching students who really want to learn.

He tells us that the in school apprentices are the best prepared, as they found out while still at school just how much they had to know, & either dropped out, or worked much harder at school. In our district it is a real success story.

O sung wu, another trend that has become the norm, is boys from broken homes.

Of my 20 app, I can think of about 6 that had their original mum and dad at home.

What was common, especially for broken home boys, was to start work with a great attitude, however, as they matured (in years) they became more dominant at home, then brought that to their workplace. It didn't cut with me.

I got threatened a few times by the app board for sacking apprentices, I told them to go jump, it was my business and its a case of my way or the highway. You know, how it was when we were kids.

Hasbeen, like anything, there are always exceptions and I'm glad to see it works for your area.

One the subject of apprentices, a 1st year is on 50% of a trade wage.

Trade Butcher $21.50 odd per hour.

Trade Electrician $45 odd ore hour

In 99 a butcher was on $15/hr, an electrician $17/ hr.

This is why we struggle to get butchers any more and won't change because retail is consumer driven.

Red meat is on the nose, be lucky to have 2 kg's / yr.
Chicken is the go, Since they marbled meat i gave it away. It's a changing trend, and hard to resist.

That's the go mate, support the old forced feeding brigade.

Would you like extra Hormones with that sir!