The Abbott government is reported to have sent the first life boat load of asylum seekers back to indo.

Given they came from there, noticed or not (haha) and, given they entered Australian waters illegally, what's the problem?

Abbott said he would stop the boats and it appears he is doing a pretty good job at that because let's face it, there are far more deserving people of our own who could certainly use those billions being wasted like our own homeless, or even our pensioners, not to mention our failing education and health systems.

Yes Rehctub, the hypocrisy that is being exhibited is overwhelming.
The contrived anger and offence taken deserves an academy award.
Especially as I heard this morning that Kevin Rudd had promised to
turn the boats back before 2007 election.

If that is so why didn't they complain then ?

There is a report that a warship did enter Indonesian waters.
No doubt there will be outrage about that, even if they don't know why.

I suspect that the Indonesians are upset because they realise they
have no grounds to refuse the returning boats.
I notice a report that the lifeboat that was used had the captain
of the scuttled boat put in charge. Clever move that.

I had to laugh when I heard ABC AM this morning.

Not too long ago we were being told -- by the usual apologists --that Indonesia couldn't possibly police the people smugglers because:
a) It just didn't have the ships,and
b) Its coast/waters were so vast it wouldn't know where to look.

Well, this mornings ABC AM was quoting Indonesian officials as saying they would send boats to try and catch Oz in the act of turning the asylum scammers around-- and guess what:
a) They apparently now had the boats to monitor their waters, and
b) They --quote-- "knew the routes mostly likely to be used by the smugglers" .

The more you learn about the whole business the more you realize that those advocating for the asylum scammers are shonks who will do and say anything to foster the continuance of the illegal immigration trade.

SPQR, I doubt that the Indonesians will turn up because if they did
then the Australian vessel could withdraw and leave them to it.
The Indonesians could not possibly tow it to Christmas Island.
They would have no option but to tow back, take on board, or refuel.
If they refuelled then the Indonesian government would be exposed to
the accusation of engaging in an invasion of Australia.

The only reason for the Indonesians to turn up would be to take them back.
BTW saw reference that there has been a drop in illegals entering Indonesia.

I would love to see how many millions we are paying to scum lawyers and "Refugee advocates" to represent and aid illegals. It would be so simple to just have a tribunal with no lawyers allowed, appeal to a higher tribunal and see the outrage just disapear.
Always remember the loss of life over divorce in the 70's & 80's fueled by scum lawyers. Victorian Labour attorney general a few years ago changed the law so all wills can be challenged another handsome little earner for scum lawyers. Lots of distress and hardship but at least lawyers can make themselves rich. Special breed of people a cancer on humanity.

Australian warships are undertaking humanitarian missions, in rescuing Indonesian crew & passengers of some of their older people ferries, that get off course & into trouble. This is extremely generous of us, considering the cost involved, & the financial mess in which the last two governments left us.

In this situation I certainly hope we are sending the Indonesian government a bill for any life boats expended in these operations.

If not I most certainly hope the Indonesian government is returning said lifeboats to us in good order & repair, to enable us to undertake further humanitarian missions, should the need arise.

They could use the returning livestock carriers, used for that other humanitarian mission of ours, supplying meat [on the hoof] to help them feed their burgeoning millions.

You know, it gives me a warm feeling to realise just how generous we are. Do you think I might be becoming a bleeding heart/do gooder?

Dear Hassie,

You, like most Australians, have always been
a "bleeding heart do-gooder," as the record
shows. Australians have always been very generous
in helping others in trouble, whether its our own,
or people elswhere in this world. And that's
something of which we can all be proud.

Just heard the government has apologised for inadvertently entering
Indonesian waters.
If this a problem, then perhaps we should only use civilian ships such
as Customs and Immigration vessels.

Or better still stay out of Indonesian Rescue zone and if they sink,
well we were not there to rescue anyway.

It may be sad to say it, but it is the reality of the world: diplomacy is the luxury of the powerful.

In the context of Indonesian-Australian relations, the powerful is Australia in real terms of politics, economy and military.

However, Australia is the weaker in action, because it is a civilised nation bound by principles, laws, media scrutinies; on the other hand, Indonesia can afford to be reckless and irresponsible, because it is a rogue state.

The conflict between the two nations on the issue of illegal boat entries is a conflict between a free and civilised nation and a corrupted rogue state.

Indonesia, for many years, has been trying to keep Australia on its knees by facilitating mass invasion of muslims, and, successfully to this day. And, understandably, they have their reasons. Australia helped East Timor to gain independence, and still helping other ethnic groups to secede from Indonesia. Also, Australia supports Christian minorities living in Indonesia.

While Indonesia is powerless to do anything on those issues, they have found the weak point in Australia to offset their loss.

With the broad context in mind, I don't think Australia can afford to lose in the conflict.

rechtub,
You were born at the wrong time.

I bet you would have had a great time in Europe in the late 1930's (if you wore a brown shirt).

You missed your chance in the US in the fifties too - although it's probably pretty hot under those white hoods.

Same old arguments - just different players.

Ho hum.

If it comes down to a matter of cost, it would be far cheaper to process them on the mainland than to fund this extravaganza with all those overseas detention centres.

I thought stopping the boats was to save lives - although it was really about buying votes.

The refugees are not the problem - they are just a symptom of another problem - a global one.

If Australia was serious about this it would remove it self as a signatory to the convention it helped draw up and have no obligation to take anybody for any reason.

Honestly thought this was a given, that we all know why we do not send them back.
First J W Howard like both the two Labor PMs and yes Abbott value the relationship with Indonesia.
That country too is VICTIM of the free loaders/boat people.
See they and Malaysia would like an end to boat people, like it or not by far the most of us want that too.
And yes! the costs without the generations of them on our welfare are costing us big time.
But we for many reasons including the law of the sea, and preventing a war with Indonesia! yes true, we just can not.
IF we could it would be done in seconds.
I hope Abbott puts out the true costs to us not just in holding them but in long term welfare out so the public can understand we are taking from our own poor to give to these unwelcome visitors.
Foxy to defend Australia,s welfare benefits system, and it needs defending, we must ensure it is not being wasted by the unworthy.
That task is too important to ignore.

Belly,
Malaysia, through which most of them transit, could stop the
whole thing overnight, by putting them straight back on the plane that
brought them.
A little questioning and baggage inspection by the immigration people would pick them out.

It would seem there is some sort of conspiracy to fill Australia with Muslims. Indonesia would prefer an Islamic neighbour so is not going to do much to limit fellow Muslims coming to Australia by boat. I am sure they would deliver them by plane and ship if we are stupid enough to accept them.

wobbles, may well you accuse me of being born in the wrong era, but seriously, and I mean SERIOUSLY, given the present state of our economy, especially looking forward, then taking our failing health and education services, do you honestly think we can afford to care for these extras, given we can't even care for our own.

Two things that come to mind, One, where are we going to find long term sustainable jobs for them. And Two, what do you suggest we slash to find the money needed to care for them, because you must remember, government revenues are falling, not growing.

JBOWYER Great post the proliferation of immigration lawyers has been a rather nasty result of this whole issue. I think the law faculties should be closed and the resources directed towards faculties based on maths and science which will strengthen our economy. Lawyers offer nothing to us or our economy and prosper at our expense. The word parasite is a suitable description of their role.

rache - Quote "If it comes down to a matter of cost, it would be far cheaper to process them on the mainland than to fund this extravaganza with all those overseas detention centres."

It helps if you look at the whole picture instead of a small part of it.

You don't take into account the ongoing cost of these economic refugees being on welfare even though they have been here over 5 years.

Also the criminal activities of people coming from a extremely oppressed society to a more liberated one, the number of sexual assaults etc is growing larger from ones released into the community.

Next time you see a homeless family or person just remember we have tens of thousands of homeless Australians but not ONE homeless refugee.

The list goes on and on.

Why doesn't Australia follow Indonesia's example & just convey them to another country ? Let's say we offer them every assistance whilst transitting australian waters but once they're clear let another country do the same.
Let's see how many Pacific Nations are keen to get muslimised.

Indonesian hypocrisy, they have sent 3 naval vessels "says that three Navy ships have been sent to the region where Australia is understood to have been turning back asylum seeker boats. Another Naval Frigate will also be sent to the area."

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/20825947/indonesia-demands-australia-stops-risking-violation-of-territory/

Amazing how quick they can find these ships BUT when it come to rescuing asylum seekers 15 km from land they don't have any ships.

Amazing also to what lengths they will go to stop them coming back but cannot stop them going.

Hi there SILLER...

I reckon you're right on the money with your insightful appreciation of this situation. Indeed, Indonesia would much prefer to have a Islamic neighbour, a neighbour with a bountiful, almost unlimited amount of resources close at hand, of just about everything they could ever possibly need. So indeed, it would be highly desirable if we were a fully Islamicist country ! With a ready made perspective of Islamic militancy and fundamentalism ! It's recognised as taking Australia by stealth. Without ever a shot being fired.

Well the Indonesians have ships there now, then we can withdraw ours
back to outside Indonesian rescue zone.
When they get into trouble we won't be there, and if the Indonesians
help them on their way we can accuse them of organising an invasion and shoot those not in uniform as spies.
How do them apples grab you ?

The economic invaders will think they are in a yo-yo we turn them around then Indonesia turn them away from going back to Indonesia so we turn them around again.

Ah so this is where the 'Old Mens Shed' has moved to. How is going lads. Been a while. So lets see what has got you lot flapping your gums over this time. Oh refugees. Crikey chaps, thought you might have moved on. Oh well nothing like a bit of mussie bashing to keep the love going. Probably reminds you of those school days in the shelter sheds slagging off about all the wops and dagos.

Even good old o sung wu seems to have joined in with more relish than I remember from him. Although I will acknowledge he does have a point. In the past Australia was pretty keen to have a nation to our north that was run by Christians rather than those Mussies. To that end we even opened up POW camps, gave weapons to captured Japanese soldiers, and marched them out to shoot Indonesians striving for independence. I don't know, perhaps if we had the likes of you lot up there at the time we might have saved the country for the Dutchies.

Well they were the good old days, now it's those Indo's who really do have a cunning plan to Islamize us especially by sending on all thousands of Sri Lankan refugees. You have to wonder how much they paid David Cameron to beat up the atrocities they faced, but our man Abbott was a wise up to them handing over some navy assets to the overtly humanitarian government. But still they come, turning us into an Islamic country. Never mind they are not Muslim, it just goes to show just how dastardly the Indos really are.

Now how about that cup of tea and an Arnott biscuit.

Steele you profess not to like the people who post on this site. The feeling is entirely mutual. Most of us posting here don't like condescending smart asses, who think their droppings don't stink.

How do I know that description fits you? I think I must be becoming psychic in my old age.

It was refreshing to hear the echoes of M2 staccato once again albeit 30 yrs down the track...an RAN Attack Class patrol boat was rumoured to have let a few bursts of .50 go over the bows of a prahus in 1983. Skipper reprimanded evidently, all hushed up by the Silver Budgie. But oh the good it would have done back then. A little bit later - 1986, while serving in Army Water Tpt on LCM8's I mentioned it to a cook who was on an LCH we used as our mother ship up in Shoalwater Bay Training area...as it turned out he was the cook on the boat involved, sure enough the facts were as we surmised.

No denying there are genuine "refugees"...the others need not apply. Use the correct channels thanks.

More $ for NORFORCE patrols, new patrol boats & P3C flights needed, not funding the DIAC,DEEWR, & bleeding hearts brigade espousing their pscho-babble.

Go inside these Detention Centres and just see what is going on at Wickham Point, Smith St Astor apartments, Darwin Airport and the Coonawarra facilities as I have, and please tell me we are getting our tax dollars worth from Serco while veterans from the Voyager Disaster, The Blackhawk Disaster, wounded from the War on Terror and others so traumatised get the rough end of the pineapple - left seeking proper debriefings, appropriate care, recognition and such.

Please who ever is in government...seriously consider sending the irregular arrivals on their SIEV's back on a big cruise liner, it will be far cheaper than the Serco gravy train we now endure.

Dear Hasbeen,

Really I'm just like you, just another bloke pining for the old days, back when a fella could be proud to be an Aussie.

When we weren't allied to countries that tortured.
When we looked after desperate people.
When we didn't put children in concentration camps.
When we didn't hand naval ships over to governments indicted by most of the Western world for serious human rights abuses.
When we could properly mourn the sinking of a refugee ship without the crescendo of political point scoring.

I just happen not to think very highly of those who have eroded and corroded that legacy.

So why don't you tell me where to look for our humanity because from where I'm sitting its been scared off by the likes of yourself and I'm not going to apologise for getting cranky about it.

I mix with a lot of different people who profess a wide range of views but there would not be too many of them who would read this thread and like what they saw. I do wonder if a younger Hasbeen might not have been one of them.

SteeleRedux, I wasn't going to bother posting to this obviously racist rant of a thread, but I just had to say that I like your style : )
Cheers,
Suse.

SteeleRedux,

You sound an awful lot like an awful little Belgium private dick that used to bedevil this forum till a short time ago...

Same choice of subjects,same ALL RANT NO REASON posts--little wonder Suzie finds in you a kindred spirit!

Cut all the crap about asylum scammers being desperate people.They are "desperate" in the same way these are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7NlvtsI_U

And in case you haven't figures it out. They are *desperate* to get their hands on the free sugar that Rudd & co put on the table.

You and Suzie (and the third sister in the covern) ought to be ashamed of yourselves for encouraging them--shame--shame--shame!

SteeleRedux,
Why not offer a solution ? Don't you want one ?

I truly wounder if posters demanding Indonesia/Malaysia stop letting them pass their borders understand.
Both these country,s are victims too, and do not want to be used by refugees using them as stepping stones to get to their target, Australia.
Too do we see the world wide flow and its over whelming numbers?
So many observers are willing to damn such as me, for first pointing out the costs to us both money and to our culture.
And even more importantly, the simple truth, these folk are financial refugees.
Show me a regional solution.
One that both serves the three country,s mentioned and ends the flow.
Becoming xenophobic about other victim nations is not helping.
I propose we all three country,s, tell the UNHCR we are no longer members and will act in our best interests not a blind UN mandated self harming way.

Belly,

Have to disagree with a couple of your points

1) <<Indonesia/Malaysia...are victims too>>
No doubt for the working class Indonesians & Malaysians they present a problem--your can see that in one of the locals objections here:

" several dozen residents of a south Jakarta housing complex, Kalibata City, signed a petition complaining about the nocturnal behaviour of the large number of young single Iranians living there"
http://www.smh.com.au/national/indonesian-locals-seek-to-evict-asylum-seekers-over-culture-clash-in-their-towns-20130712-2pvpp.html#ixzz2qh5NFk4N

But for the ruling class/officialdom they present an easy money making opportunity. The bigwigs must be raking in a motza in bribes & payoffs.

2) <<show me a regional solution>>
The only regional solution that Malaysian & Indonesian officials would be interested in is one where they corral the illegals for a short time before palming them off to Oz for permanent resettlement. And the illegals themselves, are not interested in any solution that does not offer five star welfare.

So Suze, what's racist about this thread, or are you referring to some of the posters, not the thread it's self?

Both these country,s are victims too,
Belly,
I can't prove you wrong or myself right but my gut feeling tells me that they are facilitators in an anti white agenda.

FAIR CRACK OF THE WHIP, REHCTUB!

<<So Suze, what's racist about this thread, or are you referring to some of the posters, not the thread it's self?>>

Susie just reads the lines they feed her--don't expect her to explain them.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

What's this '...good old o sung wu...' ? I'm neither 'good' nor 'old' my aberrant little friend ! Though it's always nice to welcome back to this venerable Forum, any individual who hitherto, was as a prolific contributor as were you. Although your one failing if I might be permitted to clarify - you do tend to entertain a rather deleterious self-belief that you're predominately, cognitively superior to everybody else ? Still and all, hubris is a curious condition that does require sustained encouragement ? A powerful motive for one so insecure eh STEELEREDUX ? That aside, welcome back my friend.

SPQR gee, you make it hard!
I actually support Abbott,s turn back the boats policy.
Indeed based only on polls many ALP voters do.
It swings on one word *refugee*
Now Susionline is a mate of mine but without doubt she dislikes my view totally.
Such is life, I know some of Abbott,s actions are counter productive.
The last three years of Labor government prove voters are willing to be blind to truth and too no doubt they do not trust his tell us nothing junk.
But I do not think these folk are refugees.
However in truth you shock me, indy does too, to fail to understand just how badly our neighboring country,s suffer because of the crowds rushing to get on our social security system.
Any true believer in the need for our current SS system must come to understand it must be only for the needy not greedy or we risk failing those in true need.

Belly,
I'm not quite sure if I am right or wrong in my memory but I seem to recall some time ago reading somewhere that Indonesia has over a millon Millionaires. Someone please enlighten us if this is factual or not. If it is it makes one wonder why so many fishermen have to resort to people smuggling and/or if it is merely for money or it is indeed an agenda. Can someone provide figures how many boat arrivals have been proven to be non-genuine refugees ? Where's Foxy when we need her ALP/Green provided statistics ?

SteelRedux You seem to talk down to us lesser people as if you enjoy some elevated locale. Most of us appreciate a more dogmatic expression of views preferably those offering solutions. Cynicism and word play should be confined to the fields of politics and law as little else happens there.

'So why don't you tell me where to look for our humanity because from where I'm sitting its been scared off by the likes of yourself and I'm not going to apologise for getting cranky about it. '

SteeleRedux

by all means be outraged by the millions displaced. Your outrage is misplaced however when people who buy their way here and destroy their papers take precendence over many genuine refugees. Also you lack of compassion for drowned families seems evident.

btw how many do you think we should take each year?

Rehctub, even the title reeks of racism.
I wouldn't waste my time explaining the obvious to you and your friends.

I wouldn't waste my time explaining the obvious to you and your friends.
Suseonline,
So that's the answer for when you've cornered yourself with pseudo intellectual arguments ? Pretty Pi$$ poor from my persepctive.

Dear Siller,

You first wrote;

“It would seem there is some sort of conspiracy to fill Australia with Muslims. Indonesia would prefer an Islamic neighbour so is not going to do much to limit fellow Muslims coming to Australia by boat. I am sure they would deliver them by plane and ship if we are stupid enough to accept them.”

Then had the sheer audacity to lecture me with;

“Most of us appreciate a more dogmatic expression of views preferably those offering solutions. Cynicism and word play should be confined to the fields of politics and law as little else happens there.”

Lol. This was after giving probably the most cynical portrayal of the current refugee problem I have read.

Take your hand of it mate.

Dear runner,

You really are a Pharisee aren't you. Do you really think that Australia is living up to any Christ based ideal by putting families in concentration camps?

Dear o sung wu,

Sorry mate, you bad young thing you. Hopefully we all had a chance to be bad and young at some stage, though I'm not sure runner ever had that joy. Once you get to my age being bad just doesn't seem to be worth the effort. Thanks for the welcome back though I will correct you, I have far more than one failing.

Now let us talk about your previous post. What on earth is this?

“I reckon you're right on the money with your insightful appreciation of this situation. Indeed, Indonesia would much prefer to have a Islamic neighbour, a neighbour with a bountiful, almost unlimited amount of resources close at hand, of just about everything they could ever possibly need. So indeed, it would be highly desirable if we were a fully Islamic country ! With a ready made perspective of Islamic militancy and fundamentalism ! It's recognised as taking Australia by stealth. Without ever a shot being fired.”

I might be wrong my friend but this just seems like such a swing into the loopy land from someone I remember as perhaps a little more even handed.

Cont...

Cont...

Look. I'm fully prepared to listen to an argument that says we really need to take action on people risking their lives to get to our country. Whether that desperation is born of fear of persecution or of dire economic straights is almost irrelevant. Unlike the Greens I think our resettlement program per capita is one of the most generous in the world and we should be proud of it. I think a regional effort is probably the way to go and Gillard's Malaysian solution, while in many ways inadequate, had the seeds of a workable policy. To have the opposition block it because Malaysia was not a signatory to the UN convention on refugees then once in government be returning boats to Indonesia which is also a non-signatory is gutter hypocrisy.

But if we are not prepared to accommodate the numbers making the perilous journey then we need to express that policy without the rancour and demonising. As a country we should be able to say we understand that many of these people come from blighted, war torn lands and express our sorrow that at this time we can not take more. They need to be assured that they are not illegals nor do we consider them the vanguard of an Islamic takeover of our country, and that God forbid given the same circumstances many Australians would be striving to seek better lives for our families.

Cont...

Cont...

So when you say “you do tend to entertain a rather deleterious self-belief that you're predominately, cognitively superior” or Siller claims of me “You seem to talk down to us lesser people as if you enjoy some elevated locale.” you really need to have a look at the attitudes expressed in this thread. They are all about dehumanising those who are risking their lives to get to our country. Many have been through far worse than many of us will ever be able to imagine. The last thing they deserve is the superior, sneering vilification being expressed by you lot.

I don't mind some Australians taking a pragmatic stance, but without the debasing rhetoric on display here. And o sung wu I think if you paused and thought it through, would consider this as being fair, and dare I say it the decent thing to do.

Thank you STEELEREDUX...

I appreciate your comprehensive response, apropos this impenetrable question of 'boat people'. We've previously embraced this question (at length), at another time, and I believe it's still yet to be satisfactorily resolved ?

Apart from the usual arguments, our legal responsibilities, pursuant to the UN Charter for Refugees; issues of humane treatment of displaced persons; juxtaposed with the efficacy or potency of their individual claims of persecutions. I believe we all have a fundamental appreciation of the plight confronting many of those detained.

My problem, without being too facile, and sounding like a broken record is:- Why is it when most of them arrive, they are completely devoid of all documentation, that will unequivocally establish exactly who they are, and from where they've come from ?

To enter the sovereign nation of Indonesia, everybody must be in possession of adequate documentation. Yet, the moment they leave Indonesian waters, they wilfully discard these documents and repudiate any and all efforts made by Oz authorities to identify them ? And in so doing, they knowingly defy all efforts made, to establish their bona fides as legitimate refugees, fleeing for their lives.

I and many others believe, this duplicitous manoeuvre is calculated to deceive the Australian authorities from making a positive identification and determining whether or not they are in fact genuine ! Being a humble ex copper, I find their actions and motives, to be highly suspicious indeed.

If they prove to be genuine, they should receive all the succour and protection they need.

<< If Australia was serious about this it would remove it self as a signatory to the convention it helped draw up and have no obligation to take anybody for any reason. >>

Too right Rache.

We need to remember that Australia has for a very long time had a formal refugee intake as part of our immigration program, and international aid programs, both of which are admirable by world comparisons on a per-capita basis.

We absolutely MUST shut down onshore asylum seeking. There is no reason why we should be beholden to any agreement that obligates us to take ANY asylum-seekers / refugees outside of our formal immigration program.

Has anyone ever though of why Indonesia doesn't reject any new boat arrivals if they become too much for them so as to pass them on to Australia ?

Individual,
Has anyone ever wondered whether the true price of passage on "leaky boats" is being misrepresented?
Could it be that a cheap airfare from Dubai or Colombo to Jakarta and a brief and relatively easy boat trip costing a few hundred dollars which delivers you into the bosom of the "social justice" support system is an easier method of immigration than going through the legal channels?
Where's the proof that the people smuggling business model is making the outlandish profits which are being quoted in the biased media or by the biased government?
Seriously, are we to believe that in a country where haggling is mandatory and dog eat dog competition is the norm that the boatmen aren't undercutting each other and that there's no competition?
I've been to Indonesia and I've spent a fortnight on Lombok which is the launching place of many of the colonist's transports. My impression is that the businessmen there do pretty much whatever they want and if they see you make a deal with their competitors they'll often sidle up and offer you a big discount.

steelredux it would be a lie to claim some very much so, red neck comments are being expressed here.
No doubt in your mind I have earned my spurs to be placed in that group.
But please consider others thoughts.
I want at some time an end of refugee law being the measure of who gets to come here.
Think with me, see I wanted the Malaysian solution, we however pick who comes and over all, having done so bring in more refugees if that is the term you wish.
Lets look at another truth, like it or not MOST Australians are unhappy with boat people.
Much more importantly, try telling me you do not know, if we drop our border protection we will see *hundreds of thousands come EACH YEAR*
Howard won over the blue color workers because he stopped them.
No party not committed to stopping them will ever again win an election in this country.
Sure it is true! great pain and suffering SOMETIMES is the fate of these folk, but are we in this country to share their pain endlessly?
If the UN was other than a waste of the air its controllers breath we could help.
We could given a UN mandate make their home lands safe if they are not now, most are safe, look at the cuts to spending we confront, but know if the boats stop we can cut far less.

Jay of Melbourne,
I get what you're saying & my view is that this is keeping the costs of the invasion of Australia to a minimum. rather smart really, shame so many Australians can't see it.

Some seem to have forgotten that the Malaysian deal was we send 800 to
them and they send 4000 to us. Sounds like a pink batts deal !
Yes Jay, I am sure it is competitive but then it is probably a sellers market.
Many reports suggest that they fly to Malaysia and engage a smuggler
there and are smuggled by boat into Indonesia, then put up in boarding
houses until a boat is available.

Have not heard anything further that the smugglers are organising false
visas, or corrupt visas to Australia and then putting them on aircraft to Australia.
Perhaps immigration read the same stories and fixed that.

Both Malaysia and Indonesia have enough of their own problems so I
don't understand why they don't crackdown at their own airports.

I wonder how Indonesia would react if we were allowing people to go
to Indonesia undocumented in informal boat voyages.

http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/8308077.Corsham_adventurer_returns_home_after_ordeal/
Bazz,
Something like this would happen.

individual - Compliments on that link it really shows who should be offended by Indonesia knowingly letting them into there country knowing full well where they are going to Australia.

Belly,
Here's another head scratcher:
Does the Colombo (or Islamabad or Beirut) regime really possess the resources to "oppress" it's people? Once again, we can only go by our limited experiences as tourists but can any third world societies be said to be under the control of the local government?
Colombo can't even stop people from leaving the country when they feel like it, how can a case for "oppression" be made, heck if we use the standard of state interference in the lives of it's citizens then Australians are oppressed and Tamils are free .You and I both know that if we put a foot wrong, even something as simple as parking in the wrong spot, having a loud party or cutting down a tree some government Goon is going to come and harass us.
I can hear the retired teachers and social workers grinding their teeth already and growling "that's different" but to that I'd suggest that they put their money where their mouth is, in relative terms (relativism being their standard right?) Tamils are free in ways White Australians are not and the "social justice" advocates must therefore agree that they view groups of people differently based on their race or national origin.

Jay Of Melbourne - Add to yours, put on a pair of leathers and get on a motor bike in Queensland and see what happens.

post this link only to highlight my view welfare is a reason for SOME so called refugees is shared.
Too it has support not just on the right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541892/Speak-English-lose-benefits-Cameron-stop-payouts-immigrants-use-taxpayer-funded-translators.html

In the end nothing is ever free some one pays.
And I truly warn without checks and balances we could fail the truly poor.
Doubt it? look no further than the USA for such a confirmation.

Phillip S,
Indeed, but try tying a washing machine onto the back of a Honda 90 stepthrough and riding through downtown Saigon with a cigarette in one hand and a mobile phone in the other and see what happens LOL

Of course everything the retired teachers and social workers believe in is utter bollocks, it's their beloved "peaceful" Buddhists and Hindus who are (quite rightly in the context of rational thinking) taking the fight against Islamic Jihad in South Asia into their own hands and "oppressing" their Tamil neighbours.
I've often said that we "Rednecks" and Fascists see more positive, assertive behaviour in the Third World with which we identify than in what's on offer from the "progressive" White bourgeoisie.
"Progressives" are trained to only see the failures of the Right and ignore their successes, where we've succeeded in the past it's been through inter-ethnic and inter-racial collaboration.
Watch out progressives, your beloved migrants don't share your views and are easily galvanised into confronting the Liberal establishment as the French learned upon legalising Gay marriage:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/07/us-france-marriage-muslim-idUSBRE9060IT20130107

Yes thats right. However they were in breach of quite a lot of
international law of the sea regarding aid to shipwrecked seamen.
They were obliged to fund his return to his country.

At sometime in the future there will be a really big uproar against
moslem immigration and I suspect that the Chinese will be in the front line.

Bazz,
The retired teachers and social workers and their political allies will be wanting to let in many more African, Arabic and Asian Christians fleeing the Jihad in those areas so we will also see Falangist type groups forming among migrant Christian populations.
Gee I'd hate to be a lefty, I'm really glad I took the right hand path when I came to that fork in the road.

Dear o sung wu,

Thank you for a reflective and measured post.

You write;

“My problem, without being too facile, and sounding like a broken record is:- Why is it when most of them arrive, they are completely devoid of all documentation, that will unequivocally establish exactly who they are, and from where they've come from ?”

I always find it useful to put myself in other's shoes.

If I was fleeing the persecution, torture and extra-judical killings in Sri Lanka I would make my way to the area around Negombo. It is a predominately Catholic region and it is from here that many of the boats destined for places like Australia leave. I would have had little chance of getting a passport form the authorities as the repression and reprisals against the Tamils in the Christian north is rife. I would climb aboard a very dilapidated craft and try against the odds to get to Australia. The reason for choosing this as a destination is that I know a lot about the country. It is part of the Commonwealth, deemed to be Christian, a cricketing nation, I will have relatives there and I speak quite good English.

If my god wills it I will make landfall there, but not before destroying my few pieces of documentation. I will know that ultimately, with Australia tightening its entry rules, about a half of those on my boat will be recognised as refugees. But I also know that without documentation the authorities will have a far harder time of returning me to Sri Lanka. I know I will be extensively interviewed as part of my processing. The fact that my people are being systematically abused, raped, tortured, imprisoned and murdered will not be in dispute but it only those from Sri Lanka that Australia deem necessary to conduct “enhanced screening”.

Amnesty International says so.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA37/003/2013/en/338f9b04-097e-4381-8903-1829fd24aabf/asa370032013en.pdf

The Crisis Group say so;

http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/asia/south-asia/sri-lanka/243-sri-lankas-authoritarian-turn-the-need-for-international-action.pdf

And so does Human Rights Watch;

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/11/25/enhanced-screening-means-enhanced-trauma-asylum-seekers

So yes mate if I were in their shoes I would most certainly be ripping up my papers. Wouldn't you?

The Sri Lankens come direct by boat.
The others come by plane to Malaysia or Indonesia as you cannot travel
without a passport. Then they dump their passports, although some post
it to friends in Australia so they can go back to whence they came to
visit relatives.

And they wonder why we are cynical ?

Dear Bazz,

You ask;

“Both Malaysia and Indonesia have enough of their own problems so I
don't understand why they don't crackdown at their own airports.”

There are quite a number of countries whose citizens do not require a visa to visit either of these two nations.

The rules for Indonesia are here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Indonesia

Some are visa-free while other like Australia are visa-on-arrival nations.

In Malaysia the rules are even more open.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Malaysia

Those from the US, Australia, Europe as well as much of the Middle East do not require any visas if staying less than 3 months.

I hope this clarifies things a little.

Dear individual,

Your shipwreaked sailor should share stories with Cornelia Rau. Wander off dazed and mentally distressed from a hospital in Australia and you run the risk of spending not a few weeks but 10 bloody months in a detention centre. I know which one I would prefer.

@ the bod trying to pull the (steel) wool over our eyes.

<<Cornelia Rau...10 bloody months in a detention>>

What a load of shite!

Based on my reading of Robert Manne (hardly an unsympathetic source!). The authorities many times sought the lady's help in identifying herself and she acted in a way that could only cloud the issue.

Is it funny how these things get enhanced and repeated and till they become part of lefty folklore!

I hope this clarifies things a little.
SteeleRedux,
Not quite, Visa on arrival is only in major tourist hubs such as Bali. Arrive somewhere else & you'll find out very soon that it is money that you need to get home again after lengthy detention.

Steelwool,

I have not seen such a confusion of quarter lies, half lies and outright bloody lies since your last campaign.

Distortion No 1.
<<fleeing the persecution...in Sri Lanka ...little chance of getting a passport>>

We both know that there are currently TWO MAJOR sources for our boaties

A) Sri Lanka, and
B) Various sources in on the southern Asian mainland (according to the ABC the last boat turned around had Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians)

Now, those that boat direct from Sri Lanka may not have papers for the reason you proffer,but those that jet into Malaysia or Indonesia do --they must have ID to board a plane for god sake!

So pleases don't try to spin that one.

Distortion No 2.
<<Sri Lanka[ans] [from the] predominately Catholic region>>

WTF! "eighty percent of Sri Lankan Tamils were Hindus who followed the Shaiva sect."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Tamil_people
What about the other 80%?

Distortion No 3.
<<The reason for choosing [Australia] as a destination is...[it's a] Christian, a cricketing nation...>>

Tamil Nadu (right across the straits) 1/10,000th of the distance!
Speaks their language, has their culture values ...and they play cricket there too!

And please don't cite Amnesty International or other illegal immigration lobby groups as credible sources --it like citing a tobacco company about the health benefits of tobacco --though, on second thoughts, a tobacco company is likely to be more forthright!

<<I always find it useful to put myself in other's shoes>>

Yes, well, in that case there are a lots of used car dealers waiting for someone just like you.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I will admit that I have no knowledge of what protocols are required for one nationality to enter, transit or depart; from the sovereign nation of another ?

But I return again, to the singular reason that prevails upon me to again, carefully question ? Why anybody, who's so desperately and despairingly, seeks asylum in another country, will consciously destroy all exculpatory means of establishing their bona fides ?

Why STEELREDUX... Why ?

I've heard many reason as to what precisely, motivates these people to wilfully destroy their only means of establishing both their Identity and bona fides ? Frankly, I just can't see it, I really can't. OK, I'll place myself in their shoes. I need to exit 'a country' quickly, otherwise I could be killed or locked up for some indeterminable period ?

Logic, would dictate to me; take as much proof as possible with me - of who I am, where I lived previously, my various occupation(s), academic attainment(s) documentary evidence of marriage, children, a police report **if available, and without any attendant risk of obtaining it ! Most provinces in the Sub-Continent, furnishes locals with a police report of good character, for a nominal fee. I've personally witnessed evidence of the existence of these documents (they carry no weight nor proof, in any jurisdiction in Oz).

To me, I would want to do everything possible to co-operate with the Australian authorities, so as to manifestly reduce the chances of being rejected and sent back from whence I've come.

STEELEREDUX I see you've kindly provided us with some supportive, explanatory data from some of the world's notable refugee organisations. To be honest, these groups do try hard to assist many of those poor folk who legitimately require substantial assistance.

Be assured though, there are many of those who are deeply ensconced within those eminent groups, who have absolutely no ethicality, nor colour of right, whatsoever to be ever seeking succour or assistance, of any kind. Interpol have dozens of files on these parasitical leeches !

Well! strike me lucky! we have our very own sponsor of smugglers
Steelredux come friend we all know, just as you do, they throw all documentation over board having long ago been trained to by extremists in Australia, you know we know that.

Dear SPQR,

Lol. How have you been you old goat?

Good to see the lead in the saddle bags hasn't slowed you up too much.

It appears you have done some research, the question remains just how much. You see if it is just a little your probably should have put your points to me in a less strident fashion because then you don't run the risk of appearing a fool.

Negombo and the region immediately around it is indeed majority Christian. In fact the city's nickname is 'Little Rome' because of its highly ornate churches of which there are an astounding 20 within the city itself.

If you looked further down the Wikipedia reference I have added below you will see that over 2/3rds of its leading schools are Christian, with names like; Ave Maria Convent, Maris Stella College, Newstead Girls College, Loyola College, St. Mary's College, St. Peter's Central College, St. Joseph's College, St. Jude's College, Adventist International School, St. Nicholas International School, and St. Michael's International College.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negombo#Demographics

You will also note that an area to the north is predominately Christian as is the Island of Neduntheevu. Late last year Daniel Rexian the President of the Civil Council was killed. The issue? Islanders were wanting to construct a memorial for this massacre;

“On 15 May 1985, 38 Tamil passengers, including a two year old child and three other children, travelling in boat called Kumuthini from Neduntheevu to the Kurikkatuvan Jetty on the island of Punguduthivu were hacked to death by the SL Navy personnel who came in two boats.”

http://www.tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=13&artid=36850

Mannar Island, also majority Christian was the scene of some of the heaviest fighting during the civil war.
http://www.padippakam.com/document/srilanka_monitor/monitor038.pdf

You can see both on this map.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Sri_Lanka_-_Religion_2012.png

I have put forth an entirely legitimate scenario of a persecuted Christian from a predominately Christian area to the north making his way to Negombo, a predominately Christian city, a place recognised as the major departure point for refugees, to board a boat for Australia.

Cont...

Cont...

Did I choose a Christian rather than a Hindu to make a more forceful point to the current audience? Of course. Not that I think a Hindu would be any less deserving of our help but this forum is the hand I have been dealt.

Now you tell me where I have 'outright bloody lied', or 'half lied', or even quarter lied'?

But then I think you know much of this anyway. You are just railing about any threat to the refugee bashing you continue to relish so much. Poor sod.

Oh well. Let's continue.

You claim; “Tamil Nadu (right across the straits) 1/10,000th of the distance! Speaks their language, has their culture values ...and they play cricket there too!”. You haven't mentioned the fact that many of them live in abject poverty in constant threat of intimidation and arrest from Indian authorities. Nor the fact that both Canada and Britain have larger populations of Tamils than India. Even Australia's 30,000 is up there in comparison.

As for completely rejecting Amnesty International or other respected organisations perhaps you might listen to Hilary Clinton; “"Now, reading the headlines, one might think that the use of rape as a tactic of war only happens occasionally, or in a few places, like the Democratic Republic of the Congo or Sudan. That would be bad enough, but the reality is much worse. We’ve seen rape used as a tactic of war before in Bosnia, Burma, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere.”

Look I get it. You want a clear rein to go after these desperate people without feeling and pangs of doubt or guilt. The fact that you have reacted so virulently toward me for what I have posted is because it threatens that freedom. I'm sure I will get more of a serve but ultimately your angst shows that somewhere under there there is some self doubt about your stance. That for me is reason not to completely write you off.

Suze, I ask you again, where is the title displaying racism?

Also, given that you are a supporter of these uninvited guests, perhaps you can answer the questions that none of your friends have been able to to this point.

Given that we can't support our own people, where do you propose we get the money to fund them?

More importantly, what do you suggest we slash?

While it's all well and good to be a good Samaritan, surely you must understand that we must first look after our own, then share anything we have left. You know, charity starts at home.

Now I will offer you the same leniency as I did Foxy if you can't answer the SIMPLE question.

Dear o sung wu,

Think about it. Australia was judging nearly 95% of refugees from Sri Lanka as legitimate. That ratio has slipped to around 50%. Some of this drop I have no doubt is for valid reasons but most of it is because of more onerous criteria, primarily aimed at dissuading others.

If I was going to run a 50% chance of being returned to a country where I was in fear of my life then I, knowing how much harder it is to return undocumented people (since often that country will refuse to take them), would probably turf my papers (what few I might have), as well.

Being that as it may I am not convinced the majority of those fleeing arrest or a death squad would always have access to all their documentation. Actually having everything on their person would probably be pretty incriminating if stopped in port.

I hardly think that the 'advanced screening' that Australia imposes on Sri Lankan refugees will see any of them being able to mount a plausible story if they were not Tamil.

All of this is just surmising though and I'm not sure there is a definitive source for numbers or reasons given for those ditching whatever documentation they have. We are all guessing.

Dear Belly,

Extremists in Australia? Who on earth are you talking about?

The Malaysia deal.

So perhaps you can tell me Belly, just where do you think we would be sittig right now had we accepted the Malasia deal.

My calculations suggest that had we gone down that path we would now be housing, feeding and caring for about 250,000, not 50,000.

Now given we can't support the 50,000, how do you propose we would have supported five times that amount.

Actually I should rephrase that a little, as we have supported the 50,000, it's just that in order to do so we had to rob our own people of their hard earned entitlements.

God knows how many destitue pensioners or homeless people we would have today had we gone down your suggested path because it's our own who pay the ultimate price, as NOT A SINGLE ONE of those 50,000 go without a meal, or shelter.

It's all well and good to have a kind heart, but first you need the money, and we ain't got that anymore that's to you know who.

Steel,

You couldn't lie straight in bed!

<<Negombo ...is 'Little Rome'...2/3rds of its leading schools are Christian >>

However you try and spin it. The fact remains that the huge major Tamils in Sri Lanka identify as Hindu. And your, sleight of hand like, attempt to pass them off as Christians whose only soul mates are far away in Oz is deceitful.

And here's you trying to reword that deceit:
<< a Hindu would be any less deserving of our help ... many [SR refugees in India] live in abject poverty in constant threat of intimidation and arrest from Indian authorities>>

I reckon you just made that up!

Two responses:
1) The refugee convention was -NEVER- meant as a way for anyone to improve their economic status.It was only ever intended as a means of providing sanctuary --and temporary sanctuary at that!

So contrary to your little mission statement<<Whether that desperation is born of fear of persecution or of dire economic straights is almost irrelevant>> http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6194#180546

It is HIGHLY RELEVANT!

2)Further, your comment: "poverty in constant threat of intimidation and arrest from Indian authorities" is pure BS!

Here is a quote from THE HINDU of June 20, 2013 (an Indian newspaper):

"the State government[of Tamil Nadu] has been providing them with temporary housing, free medical care, and education up to secondary level, cash doles, subsidised rice, clothing material and utensils, for their survival"

And the same article goes on to mention that there are calls to grant them full citizenship of India

But guess what? none of the above compare with the freebies on offer in OZ --so that is why the crafty ones boat-on to OZ!

<As for ... Amnesty International [said this and]...Hilary Clinton [said that] [and your aunty Maud said something else]

I'm also aware of this:
"Sri Lanka’s main Tamil party won a landslide victory Sunday....The opposition Tamil National Alliance won 30 out of 38 seats in polls for a provincial council in the former war zone...Saturday’s vote... has been promoted by the UN Human Rights Council"
http://www.arabnews.com/news/465474

Fair go! even you mate should understand boats would have stopped long ago.
Before shouting.
Consider this Tony Abbott may soon [if relations with Indonesia continue to fail], stop the boats by using under another name this solution.
Sending every boar arrival almost instantly, to Malaysia would stop the boats.
Do away with the need for on or of shore detention and save us heaps.
Would you pay ten grand to get to Australia and be sent to Malaysia with no prospects of ever coming here?

....Would you pay ten grand to get to Australia and be sent to Malaysia with no prospects of ever coming here?

Belly, that wasn't Rudds Malaysia deal. His deal was, we send 400 there, we take 8000 in return.

The other issue was potential abuse and we didn't want to be a part of that.

Now there is an argument to suggest we are being abusive by sending them back, different type of abuse and one that should lead to them stopping.

Steely, we know people like you, & your fellow travelers would ditch their papers, lie, cheat & connive, to get whatever they want out of the taxpayer.

Hadn't you figured out it is to stop a flood of people like you entering Oz, that we want to stop the boats?

Somehow, this discussion has become peculiarly cyclical in terms of what's asseverated by one opinion to the other ?

Do these asylum seekers who arrive by boat, have a authentic case for protection, notwithstanding what methods they may employ to get that protection eg, repudiating all attempts of ID ?

Or, are most of these boat arrivals, engaged in a course of conduct calculated to deceive the Australian government from making fact-based enquiries in order to correctly and accurately, determine their ID and legitimacy for protection ?

We'd have to be quite vacuous and imbecilic, not to believe, some of those we've already turned away, A R E legitimate refugees deserving of our total protection. Consequently, we've consigned these poor buggers to a life of hell, to the extent they even still have a life ?

Conversely, there would be no doubt either that, some of these people we've already processed and allowed entry, A R E potential terrorists, criminals and commercial crooks and malingerers !

Seemingly, we here in Oz are very well disposed, at getting it patently wrong when choosing the correct ethnic and religious blend, together with the right personal qualities and character, of some of our emigrants !

RECHTUB!
No way around it your understanding of this subject is wanting!
You must know while apparently not understanding your self, I know Rudd,s plan back to front.
It erk,s me that you put comment like that out then insult me for unlike your self understanding the following.
Australia has a problem.
Indonesia has one too
Malaysia too has one.
Australia my proud and great country has no call over the other two.
The plan, here is the area of your difficulty, was to in part reward Malaysia too for helping us steam the flow.
Rechtub you owe me that beer and its your shout!
Short term we AUSTRALIA would have taken in say twenty thousand.
And sent say 5.00o no more surely less, over there.
At this point in time, make mine 4x, surely the financial refugees would, after seeing their ten grand wasted stop coming copy so far? none of those pots thanks I want a pint.
Rechtub we did not use the plan because Tony said he did not want to send kids there.
I will bet you a carton of 4x stubbies he would rush right now to use that plan if he can find a way to make it look like his idea.
We both want to stop the boats.
We both are appalled at the costs and that will hurt us all once we are told the full costs.
Our coast guard can find better things to do.
Calm down and look at the issue see behind the Malaysian solution, it was to unite three country,s in a true solution to end forever this trade.
Look at the current costs, compare them with a plan that rids us of temporary homes and all the social welfare costs.
Malaysia was the yellow and black cheaper version, an end forever to the boats.
It remains the best cost cutting and effective plan I have seen

Belly - About problems.
Indonesia has one too.
Malaysia too has one.

Australia has a problem because the other 2 countries LET the people in knowing full well they were not going for a HOLIDAY but were going to hop on boats to Australia

Here is an amusing summary of Australia, Indonesia relations the more we give the more they want and want to do nothing to get things.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/indonesia-when-were-sorry-its-not-enough-when-were-generous-we-need-to-try-harder/story-fni0cwl5-1226806143020

Dear SPQR,

Normally I would be getting fired up being repeatedly called a liar, particularly when you haven't given one instance to back the accusation up but all I'm feeling is sorrow for you mate.

Look at what you have become, someone who rails against any description that might humanise these poor people, they are after all just that, human beings. You would much rather tag them with shonks, illegals, scammers, rather than what the majority really are, refugees seeking protection.

I used a Christian in my scenario and it seems to have cut you to the quick. Why? Because anything that might elicit empathy in other Australians for these unfortunate human beings is an anathema to you. That is sad.

Whether they have made the journey because of persecution or dire economic circumstances might make a difference on whether they are accepted as refugees in this country but not on whether we treat them as human beings.

Dear Belly,

You talk about your proud and great country. While the leaders of Canada and India boycotted Commonwealth summit held in Sri Lanka late last year and the British PM fired of broadside after broadside condemning that county's continuing human right violations we gave them naval warships. What the hell does that make us? A country that is prepared to piss all over a long history condemning human rights abuses, a country that is so bloody wrapped up in its own self interest that we have stooped so low. To do this because for any reason is bad enough but to do it because of of a few thousand refugees is so depressing. What are we becoming?

Dear o sung wu,

I think what Australians tend to get so wrong is our choices of politicians. This is an issue that was cynically fanned by both sides for political gain. I truly think that under a different principled and ethical leader I would not be seeing a bloke like you, one who I believe to be essentially decent, talking about our refugees as part of an Indonesian plot to Islamise our country.

Philip the views I have expressed here are ones I truly believe in 100 percent.
We do not often talk and your post tells why.
It is my view while you can think what ever you want.
Your views are combative towards other nations , blaming them and even ignoring their rights as sovereign Nations.
In all things, country to country government to government talks shouts how, and see,s much more respect than you wish to give.
I see no benefit in asking you to consider the word diplomacy or understanding the need for it.
So leave the thread rather than limit my thinking on yet another subject
How ever we all should understand a peaceful world demands mutual respect, compromise, and every one being heard in country,s views.

Steel

It is mildly ironic that you --and those of your persuasion -- take great exception to anyone questioning the integrity of the "asylum seekers" but can readily write off anyone who does so as inhumane, cynical or worse.

The illegal boaties have sullied their own names:
1) The Middle Easterners jet into Indonesia or Malaysia then --for appearances sake --change into their civvies and hire a boat to Oz.
2) Best practice under Rudd & co was to get a short way off the Indonesian coast and then use their mobiles to call the HMAS taxi service.
3) Practically all of them destroy their IDs (though you don't want to believe it)
4) Practically all of them repeat the same generic rote learnt story to get acceptance
5) And we are finding that after securing their meal ticket in Oz many --and in time most-- return to their much feared places of origin to holiday --or even fight for fundamentalist causes they supposed ran from.

And, you might recall the incident when the Viking Princess rescued some (intending) illegals, and they repaid the act of humanitarianism by commandeered the ship and refusing to leave till they got a destination of choice (only affluent Western countries would do!).
And there have been similar incidents with merchant ships.

These are not one-offs! they are very much standardized practices.

What does it take to make you people realize that you are being had?
I'll wager that despite all your bigheartedness you would not accept similar from a tradesperson or tenant or employee.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I've just about exhausted my attentiveness for this topic now, though I felt it necessary to remark on one of your mistaken impressions about my own beliefs on the subject. You stated in your last thread something to the effect '...an Indonesian plot to Islamise our country...' ? No, that would not be any sort of strategy that I would consider the Indonesians would contemplate at this time ?

They have enough problems 'in country', without trying to create a plan of, surreptitiously introducing small groups of Muslim men and women into Oz. All for the purpose of thoroughly Islamicizing our fair nation ?

On one specific point though, we do agree ? The quality of some of our politicians on BOTH sides, is deplorable !

Dear o sung wu,

My apologies if I have ascribed to you beliefs you do not hold.

I'm afraid I had misread or misconstrued the following exchange.

“It would seem there is some sort of conspiracy to fill Australia with Muslims. Indonesia would prefer an Islamic neighbour so is not going to do much to limit fellow Muslims coming to Australia by boat. I am sure they would deliver them by plane and ship if we are stupid enough to accept them.”
Posted by SILLER, Friday, 17 January 2014 4:34:40 PM

“Hi there SILLER...
I reckon you're right on the money with your insightful appreciation of this situation. Indeed, Indonesia would much prefer to have a Islamic neighbour, a neighbour with a bountiful, almost unlimited amount of resources close at hand, of just about everything they could ever possibly need. So indeed, it would be highly desirable if we were a fully Islamicist country ! With a ready made perspective of Islamic militancy and fundamentalism ! It's recognised as taking Australia by stealth. Without ever a shot being fired.”
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 17 January 2014 7:53:43 PM

I am relieved to have you clarify that “No, that would not be any sort of strategy that I would consider the Indonesians would contemplate at this time?”

I will undertake to read your posts more carefully in the future.

As to this current crop of pollies it is tempting to think we should put them on a boat bid them farewell. Only problem is I'm not sure they would be welcomed anywhere else.

There's a distinct divergence between that of 'preference' to something that is an ongoing 'strategy'.

There would be no doubt that Indonesia would have a 'preference' that Oz was a fully Islamic Country. Indeed, it would be 'highly desirable' if Australia was a fully Islamic Nation, we (Indonesia) could take it over without a shot ever been fired.

Accordingly, I would sincerely doubt if they had, or indeed have, a 'strategy' in place to Islamise Australia, either ?

I'd 'prefer' to be fifty years younger. I wish I had a 'strategy' in which I could achieve this aim ?

Bazz I recall years ago, a couple on, I think a yacht, on a sailing holiday ventured into Indonesian waters, and were shot dead. A couple of tourists, not even given an interrogation to see if they were in any way a threat. Heavy.

o sung wu,
you summed up the real picture quite clearly but still there'll be scores upon scores of Australians who cannot grasp the situation. That'll be the costly part for the next 20 years.

The recent rescue of 56 men and one woman and child, from their leaking wooden vessel in which they had been heading towards Christmas Island was initiated by two Australian ski boats, they were then transferred to a Customs-Border Security boat, one day travel then onto a navy ship and heading back to their homeland knowing well that some who tried this before had failed.
Naval officers informed them of what was happening, also that what they were attempting was illegal, and handed each a four page document, in all languages as there were around 7 different nationalities involved.
It appears the boat people were refused use of the navy phone which upset them quite, otherwise looked after as would be expected.
They were then transferred into orange navy rescue boats, given a satellite phone, GPS, compass and fuel enough to get them the three kms safely to Indo shores.
Unfortunately in the process, the ship has entered Indonesian waters. The Indonesian Govt. responded to our Govt. 'that this has damaged our relationship, breaching our right to protect our sovereignty and territorial integrity in accordance with international laws'. And of course our Govt. with tail between legs apologizes profusely. What?!
Arent we, as a Nation, under the same international laws? "£$%*

Sorry all. Re-posted this in a slightly different version on another active subject.

......How ever we all should understand a peaceful world demands mutual respect, compromise, and every one being heard in country,s views.

Too right Belly, so why is it that Indonisia does not respect our rights and blatantly allows for it's baggage to be sent off hear.

Why is it also that they can find navy ships to ward off ours, but can't find them to patrol their own waters.

They used to laugh at us under the watch of Rudd and Gillard, they are not laughing any more as they have come up against a government of action, not words.

Forget Malaysia, Abbott will put a stop to the boats. If it means kicking a few heads, then so be it.

Finally, one undeniable fact is that what ever Abbott does to address this problem, it is a problem that did not exist until Kevin Rudd had his little joy ride as leader.

A joy ride that has not only cost us dearly, but will continue to cost us for generations to come.

And too right anyone coming here to seek asylum from Middle Eastern or Indonesian war torn countries, must prove somehow, the threats to their lives, provide some form of identification to prove they are civilians, workers and innocent victims.
Most of the wars fought in these countries are based on ethnicity, religious followings, politics and conflicting interpretations of the past. A lot of extremes, and intolerance of conflicting ideals.
Surely before taking in anyone (because we don't have to) I for one would want total reassurance that we are not being sucked in, again, welcoming people who suspiciously look pretty ok, no evidence of war wounds or apparent suffering.

Surprise. Somehow come to find they are Military trained sadists who took part in the brutal slayings, rapes and murders of the innocents.
Though to fear capture and punishment they must have offended/betrayed a higher ranking male of their particular murderous group.
At present the Sri lankan Government is preparing for a meeting with the UNHRC, over war crimes and the slaying of 40 thousand civilians. But believes himself unanswerable to anyone and 'will protect his gallant troops in their fight to crush terrorism'.
Such a small country, so many clashing sects and due to egotistical, power hungry leaders, more innocent ones will die. Not at the hands of foreign terrorists but their own country men

The solution proposed by Kevin Rudd was the best one although he was too incompetent and incapable to do it. Send "refugees" to some dreadful place with no Centrelink and see how the numbers drop. Europe should adopt a similar policy.
I do want to assist poor desperate people too but not at the risk of allowing the people who make all the trouble which drives people into being refugees brought here. Then they do it all again.
If you want Sharia law go to a muslim country. If you like what Australia has then join us and be Australian. If you do not want to be Australian then stay away.

Jodelie, the scenario you posed as to what happened means that the
commander of the navy ship was well aware he was entering Indonesian
waters. Warships must have permission to enter another countries waters.
I believe the distance is 12 nautical miles. I doubt that they would
go as close as 3km which is close to 1.5 nautical miles.
So I suspect there is something very wrong with your story.
If the Customs boat had towed them to 3km that would be fine, no
problem as it is a civilian ship. Indeed they could have entered the
port and unloaded them at the dock. That is because they were
passengers on an Indonesian vessel.

Now the question is just where and when the naval ship entered the
Indonesian waters, or the commander thought he had permission because
he had answered a mayday call. Maybe he did but after they had been
picked up and transferred between ships that mayday situation may
well have concluded.
So you can see how complicated the situation is, like the ABC you may
well have gone off without understanding the situation.

Fair enough Bazz. While looking up all these subjects of interest on the net, I've been scribbling down as much as possible. Note pad looks like a five year old has been at it. Thanks for the correction. Bad enough getting my facts wrong, let alone stuffing up a quote. Almost sin-bin material lol