In this mornings press there was an article about the deaths of 2 Australians (husband and wife) in Syria. This apparently brings the number of our citizens who have died in the conflict there to 7.

A week or so ago, apparently we prevented 2 persons from going and another person faces charges of inciting people to go to Syria to fight.

What should we do about this? Do we stop our citizens from going overseas to participate in a civil war?

There is another body of thought that suggests we allow those who want to go there to let them but then cancel their passports or other means to not allow them back.

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-13/two-australians-feared-dead-in-syria/5196582

Revoke their dual citizenship immediately. What a terrible risk our fellow citizens have been exposed to living next to jihadists. Allowing them back is to court problems.

Of course those who pose as 'do gooders' but who are in fact simply cringing apologists for nasty types, will say that revoking the citizenship might put them at risk of harm.

It is a reminder to Government and to all members of Parliament that Australians are irate that government has done a very poor job indeed screening illegal immigrants and immigrants generally. Under Labor, almost all illegal arrivals were allowed to remain in Australia, which in other countries would have an unthinkable outcome. Labor ex-foreign minister Carr and others were highly critical of the casualness of screening of economic migrants, some of whom could easily be terrorists.

<<What should we do about this?>>

Nothing!

Don't people also travel to Switzerland to obtain legal euthanasia? What's the difference?

But why should those young people spend their money overseas? We could instead have a great tourist attraction locally, a resort in outback Australia where both Sunnis and Shiites, from Australia and overseas, can visit and shoot each other to their heart's content. What's the problem, so long as everyone else remains out of range?

What if the civil war was in America, would we feel the same way?

Intending jihadists and their urgers should not have to leave Australian shores before being called upon to defend their dreadful crimes. They conduct terrorist business and raise money in Australia to support their terrible missions. In that case revoke their dual citizenship and send them back to where they came from.

Why shouldn't the same apply to all those who migrate to Australia and commit serious crimes like drug or people trafficking, or violence?

What are the flaws in the immigration programs that have these unintended negative consequences and why hasn't there been stern corrective action before now?

Yep cancel their passports.

The same should apply to any who return to the country they claim to have fled in fear of their life. Those who go back for a holiday, to find a compliant wife, or to retire on our welfare, should also have their citizenship cancelled, & all rights to welfare, or to return to Oz, removed

At the risk of trying to appear sane, what crime are these people committing?

If a war were to break out here (as so many lovely folk on this Forum predict) between Christians and Muslims, would you expect there to be sanctions against Australian/UK dual citizens coming back here to defend their families?

If their actions are within the law, what is the problem?

Right with you there, Pericles.

No one ever bothered to stop Australians going to fight the British in Occupied Ireland nor did anyone bother about Australian soldiers being detached to British units in Northern Ireland for a bit of active experience; if an Australian citizen wants to go and fight in a war somewhere then that should be their own business.

Few, least of all the then Government, did anything to stop Ustashe in Australia from raising money and training in Australia; and plotting the overthrow of Tito's Yugoslavian Government

What to do about Aus citizens going to fight in syria?
Banjo,
Give them everything they need so they won't need to come back after they anihilated most of each other. I really would be cheaper & keep the problem over there. It is not possible to reason with these people.

>>What should we do about this?<<

Let them. People who are keen to run off to be shot, maimed and killed are examples of Darwinism in action. We should be thankful for such idiots eliminating themselves from the gene pool and give them our full support when they follow pursuits that make their deaths more probable. The more people carrying war-mongering genes we can have killed before they reproduce the better: it means that there'll be fewer war-mongers in subsequent generations which leads to less war.

Cheers,

Tony

In Australia, we have rules and laws that all our permanent citizens have to follow, regardless of where they may have been born.

It is not illegal for someone to take a trip back home to the old country, so we can't 'do' anything about that.

However, if they commit serious crimes (like war crimes/murder etc) while overseas, then they should have their citizenship revoked and not be allowed to return.

I would say the same of an ex Irishman going back to fight the IRA in Belfast, as I would any ex-Syrian going back to Syria to fight.

What to do in-deed...let them go and revoke their Australian passports....easy come..easy go.....they were guests in the first place:)....you go....don't come back.

Planet3

Suse,

You say "I would say the same of an ex Irishman going back to fight the IRA in Belfast, as I would any ex-Syrian going back to Syria to fight."

I never heard of civilians going to Ireland to fight the IRA, but you don't comment on an Australian going to Occupied Ireland to fight the British or an Australian soldier being officially attached to a British unit to gain experience in Northern Ireland'

Do you see a difference, after all the soldier is there with his Government's permission?

I think the issue is not about 'Australians' going to Syria but 'who' these individuals really are. Should we all just assume they are former political refugees from the Middle East? Or should we assume they are third or fourth generation Aussies with British, Irish, European ancestry? Why leave these crucial blanks in the story? Let's name them and remove the doubts.

There is an angle to this that some are missing. Something that makes it a mite different to someone fighting for the IRA or George Orwell & buddies fighting for the republican forces in Spain.

Quite a number of the individuals who have return to fight for fundamentalist causes were granted asylum in Oz -ie they came to Oz professing fear that the fundamentalists were out to get me. Then, when they have secured their meal ticket, run off back to fight for the Taliban or al-Shabaab.

Talk of revoking citizen sounds good. But it ain't going to happen --in the current climate. We would be faced with a logjam of court cases and appeals from (often by government funded) rights groups.

You have all missed the point !

There is a long standing law against citizens of a country becoming
directly involved in a war in a foreign army.

This is why those going to Syria say they are going for humanitarian reasons.
It compromises the countries neutrality and that is why the law exists.
In some cases the offender could be charged with treachery.
The very least they can be denied by their country and passport and citizenship cancelled.
The latter is minimum that should be done in this case.

s Mise,
Interesting that you have some knowledge of;
" Ustashe in Australia from raising money and training in Australia; and plotting the overthrow of Tito's Yugoslavian Government"
These camps were between Berrima and Goulburn in NSW and run by ASIO.
It wasw interesting that when the first body was found in the Belanglo State Forrest the word "Ustashe" appeared twenty feet in the air on a wall beside the Shell service station in Bowral.
Since the State Forrest was used extensive;y for the training of these people it makes you wonder about Iven Milats conviction does,t it?

Firstly, some weeks ago ASIO estimated there were about 200 of our citizens associated with the fighting in Syria.

Most of these young men would have been born here so are Australian with no dual citizenship. They are putting their lives on the line for their beliefs.

It seems that ASIO fears are that, when they return to Aus, they will be experienced in urban warfare and other military matters. Many could be radicalised and this posses a danger to our community.

Banjo

I have to disagree

There is evidence that Somalis who were accepted as refugees have gone back to fight for al-Shabaab:
"Muslim extremists are recruiting young Somali refugees in Sydney and Melbourne for what a Somali community leader fears could be a terrorist attack in Australia...'We know that some people left Australia to join the jihad of the Islamic Courts (a faction in the Somalian civil war) and have even been killed,' Dr Hilole said.'We know there are supporters in Australia who want to recruit young Somalis to go back or support financially the Islamic Courts.'"
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/extremists-recruiting-australian-somalis/2007/04/13/1175971295162.html

And this has been a phenomenon that we have seen repeated in the USA, Canada and the Scandinavian countries.

Further, there is evidence that at least some of the Lebanese jihadis were not born in Oz:
" the Australian Federal Police swooped on a cell of Somali and LEBANESE-BORN Australians accused of providing support to radical groups in Africa."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/madrassa-lessons-worry-somalis/story-e6frg6nf-1226725553794

Besides, all the quasi-refugees let-in under Frasers generous "Lebanese concession" must be in nearing prime fighting age by now.

Now I just got this to-day & it came out yesterday, 4 pages already.

Banjo: There is another body of thought that suggests we allow those who want to go there to let them but then cancel their passports or other means to not allow them back.
OTB: Revoke their dual citizenship immediately.
Hasbeen: Yep cancel their passports.
Suseonline: However, if they commit serious crimes (like war crimes/murder etc) while overseas, then they should have their citizeLet them. People who are keen to run off to be shot, maimed and killed are examples of Darwinism in action. nship revoked and not be allowed to return.
TL: Let them.
Planet3: ...let them go and revoke their Australian passports.
Bazz: The very least they can be denied by their country and passport and citizenship cancelled.

Thank you Banjo, OTB, Hasbeen, suseonline, TL, Planet3, & Bazz. I have advocated this on here before & wholly support that idea.

OTB: What are the flaws in the immigration programs that have these unintended negative consequences and why hasn't there been stern corrective action before now?

What! an' deprive some poor Lawyer of an honest living?

The ploy of going to provide Humanitarian Help is a farce & they know it. Those going feel safe because they have duel citizenship. The ones that haven't been granted citizenship can't go back yet because.

Cont.

Excerpts from the UNCHR Handbook.

Can these people be expelled from Australia. Yes.

Article 32 Expulsion

1. The Contracting States shall not expel a refugee lawfully in their territory save on grounds of national security or public order.
Article 33 Prohibition of expulsion or return (“refoulement”)

2. The benefit of the present provision may not, however, be claimed by a refugee whom there are reasonable grounds for regarding as a danger to the security of the country in which he is, or who, having been convicted by a final judgment of a particularly serious crime, constitutes a danger to the community of that country.

Cont

Annex III
1967 PROTOCOL RELATING TO THE STATUS OF REFUGEES 30 The States Parties to the present Protocol,

Considering that the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees done at Geneva on 28 July 1951 (hereinafter referred to as the Convention) covers only those persons who have become refugees as a result of events occurring before 1 January 1951,

Considering that new refugee situations have arisen since the Convention was adopted and that the refugees concerned may therefore not fall within the scope of the Convention,

Considering that it is desirable that equal status should be enjoyed by all refugees covered by the definition in the Convention irrespective of the dateline 1 January 1951,

Can Australia remove it's self from the Convention. Yes.

Article VII
Reservations and Declarations
1. At the time of accession, any State may make reservations in respect of article IV of the present Protocol and in respect of the application in accordance with article I of the present Protocol of any provisions of the Convention other than those contained in articles 1, 3, 4, 16 (1) and 33 thereof, provided that in the case of a State Party to the Convention reservations made under this article shall not extend to refugees in respect of whom the Convention applies

Article IX
Denunciation
1. Any State Party hereto may denounce this Protocol at any time by a notification addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

2. Such denunciation shall take effect for the State Party concerned one year from the date on which it is received by the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

2. Reservations made by States Parties to the Convention in accordance with article 42 thereof shall, unless withdrawn, be applicable in relation to their obligations under the present Protocol.

3. Any State making a reservation in accordance with paragraph 1 of this article may at any time withdraw such reservation by a communication to that effect addressed to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

4. Declarations made under article 40, paragraphs 1 and 2, of the Convention by a State Party thereto which accedes to the present Protocol shall be deemed to apply in respect of the present Protocol, unless upon accession a notification to the contrary is addressed by the State Party concerned to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. The provisions of article 40, paragraphs 2 and 3, and of article 44, paragraph 3, of the Convention shall be deemed to apply mutatis mutandis to the present Protocol

SPQR,
You said, "Besides, all the quasi-refugees let-in under Frasers generous "Lebanese concession" must be in nearing prime fighting age by now".

If I recall correctly the big influx of muslim Lebs occurred in the 1970s, This would make those leaving here to fight in Syria second generation and born here. That is if the info is correct that those going are mainly Lebs. I appears they find their religion/politics more important than being Australian. We have seen how serious they take their religion by the muslim riots in Sydney a year or so ago.

ASIO may have some very valid concerns if these citizens return further radicalise and as experienced fighters.

I know nothing about the recruitment of Somarlis to fight in Africian countries. Thanks for the links

Sorry this should have been in the 1St. Post. Note 113 (1)

CHAPTER III – CESSATION CLAUSES
A. General
113. Article 1 C of the 1951 Convention provides that:

“This Convention shall cease to apply to any person falling under the terms of section A if:

(1) He has voluntarily re-availed himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; or

(2) Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily re-acquired it; or

(3) He has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality; or

(4) He has voluntarily re-established himself in the country which he left or outside which he remained owing to fear of persecution; or
evidently ceased to exist. Cf sub-sections (5) and (6) (paragraphs 135 to 139 below).

(5) He can no longer, because the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, continue to refuse to avail himself of the protection of the country of his nationality;

Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to a refugee falling under Section A (1) of this Article who is able to invoke compelling reasons arising out of previous persecution for refusing to avail himself of the protection of the country of nationality;

(6) Being a person who has no nationality he is, because the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, able to return to the country of his former habitual residence

"Yesterday, Andrew Parker, the Director-General of the UK’s intelligence service MI5, announced that hundreds of British Muslims have traveled to Syria to take part in "terrorist tourism." Today, we present exclusive video footage and interviews with British nationals fighting with al Qaeda in Syria. In the film, two young men with British accents echo the sentiments expressed by Lee Rigby's killer Michael Adebolajo and declare jihad against the UK and United States."
http://tinyurl.com/mswc8nn

British jihadists who fight in Syria having their UK citizenship stripped

"Since May 2010, the passports of 37 people with dual nationality have been revoked by the Home Secretary Theresa May.

British jihadists who fight in Syria are having their citizenship stripped to prevent their return to the UK.

Home Secretary Theresa May has revoked the passports of 20 people this year - more than in her previous two-and-half-years combined.

The measure has been used against 37 people with dual nationality since May 2010, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.
..
Security services are concerned that Syrian jihadists are bringing violent extremism back to the UK."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-jihadists-who-fight-syria-2954402

God help us ! What a bloody mess we've got ourselves into, with all this 'open door' refugee policy ! Indeed, I remember well when Mr Fraser opened the door to all these Lebanese asylum seekers ! It's true, they didn't arrive by boats. It was all furnished through our HARD EARNED TAX money, that provided them with the wherewithal to establish another Beirut, right here in downtown Bankstown and it's environs.

It really worries me greatly, for the future of my grandchildren, and all the other millions of offspring, together with their heirs and successors ? When they ask grandpa, why did you all voluntarily hand over this once great country and nation of ours, to a bunch of predatory foreign Oligarchs ?

Of course my only answer could be '...Oh Kids, it was our politicians that did it, not us...' ! And my eldest would rightly say after a long moment, '...what a weak group of bastards, you and your kind were...' as I crawled away ashamed, like a mangy yellow dog !

So true o sung wu, of course Fraser was already half way round the bend by that time. Like Rudd to follow, he had ideas of grandeur as well, in some vague hope of becoming the UN secretary general in his dotage. He, like Rudd was prepared to screw the people of OZ to attain his grand dream.

Fortunately mate, we both know that these people don't like a real fight. A bit of shooting in the air, bashing up some women, children, & a few unarmed blokes, or bombing a bus, is more their speed.

There is only one bunch from the middle east that developed some guts, & that took many decades in cold climates to develop.

We are more likely to have real trouble with the Afghans. They are many undesirable things, but lacking in courage & sheer guts is not one of them. Once they are established, if they start wanting a fight, we will damn well know all about it, much to our cost.

If an Australian citizen enters a foreign country to engage
in hostile activity on behalf of armed forces that are not
part of the foreign government they can be charged under
Australian Law of the Crimes (Incursions and Recruitment Act)
which has broad provisions relating to the support and
financing of armed foreign groups. They can also be charged
for supporting hostile activities. I believe that ASIO has
already charged several men.

Australian citizens have always had strong views on international
conflicts and Australians have fought on the side of non-government
forces in East Timor, Sudan, Afghanistan, Cambodia, and
Sri Lanka among others. Could they have been charged
under the Crimes - Incrusions and Recruitment Act? I don't
know.

However, the following link gives a good summary of why
some people are concered about this issue:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/emotions-run-high-for-australias-muslim-youth-risking-all-to-fight-in-the-syrian-war-20131206-2ywof.html

Foxy,
Thanks for posting that link, it may give others an insight into the problem.

I guess it will be up to the Fed police and ASIO to keep tabs on and asses whether or not some will be charged on their return.

On a broader front, We need to abolish Multiculturalism, which encourages the retention of old alien cultures and divides us into groups or tribes.

Secondly we need to disallow immigrants from groups that have shown us they cannot/will not integrate and hold our laws and social standards in contempt. There are not many groups that need to be excluded, most immigrants do well at integrating, but a few groups do not.

This is all to do with culture. Our actions need to be aimed at building a cohesive society. We need to be more selective on the immigration and refugee front.

Let them go and die. Flying the "rising flag of Islam" is offensive at its core. They want to end your free lives, convert you, or remove you from the gene pool. The more of them that die the better. More the better over seas.

Good evening to you FOXY & HASBEEN...

Dear FOXY, that was probably one of the most chilling links you've ever managed to tease out of the thousands of media points you've uncovered ?

To see armed young men from the suburbs of Sydney, happily posing with Ak47's strapped across their chest, gives me pause from my Vietnam days, 45 years ago. I thought I left all that stuff behind ? And to think they'll return to Oz, believing they're seasoned warriors, both frightens, and absolutely chills me to the bone.

I attended the VVCS (Vietnam Veterans Counselling Service) for nearly five years to help me shed some of those horrible memories and scenes from my buggered mind. Yet me, my Regiment, we're all sent over there by our Government, our Country, essentially with the blessing of all our people (not quite all).

And upon our repatriation back home, that's when it all seemed to hit the fan. For some (myself included) to a lesser degree. For many others though, they came home to a ruined life, a disastrous marriage, lost careers, and estranged friendships.

Moreover, many of us without even knowing it, suffered from PTSD. And that's what accounted for the mood swings, explosive tempers, the melancholy, the 'startle' syndrome, and many other symptoms that would at best, worry your mates, at worst they considered you're mad ?

Essentially, because what these young blokes have done is UNLAWFUL, there'll be NO SUPPORT for them from the government, NONE. There will be NO access to the VVCS for them to attend and blow off steam, NO RSL, NO Repatriation Department, NO Veterans' Affairs, NO honour on ANZAC DAY, NO Gongs representing a big 'thank you' from our Nation; NO Military pension, NO Veterans 'Hotline' when the nightmares become too much.........Bugger all !

These stupid, idealistic young bastards, have no conception what war means, or the effect war has on you for the rest of your days. Worse, as they age...sorry. IF they age, there'll be NO honours, NOR glory for these people, only denunciation and censure at best ?

F.O.I. o sung wu. ex. 1Ra. 2-2alpha 173D(Sep) 65/66.

o sung wu,
I understand you angst only too well. I realized I had a problem that wasn't going to go away by itself and a uniform (and a gun) and orders seemed the right patch for me. The army wouldn't take me back, they had no more wars then so I joined the NSWPF and because of my military rank and training (experience) took only 12 months to be out of uniform and into the squads as a sgt.
Now retired I fill in my time running a Men's Shed and working as a Pensions and Welfare Officer at my local RSL. I see the PTSD out of Iraq and Afghanistan every week and it gets worse.
These idiots playing soldiers will come back as heroes to their street gangs and society will get a new wave of terror.

Jayb,

Thanks for the info on the convention.

So, it appears we are far too generous and forgiving in the way we apply it.

Hi there JAYB...

You were with Alpha Coy 1 RAR first tour (1965/66) ? From memory you were at FSB Coral with 3 RAR ? Something I do remember, when you had your welcome home parade in George Street, some very silly deluded young girl, threw red paint over your CO, Col. Preece, during the march. What a shameful act, denigrating a senior Officer !

There's little doubt, we copped heaps on our return. I realise I'm well off Topic, anyway I hope you've been travelling OK subsequent to your return...nearly fifty years ago now ? Wow ! Speak with you again soon, I hope ?

G'day there CHRISGAFF1000...

I suspect these fellows will never learn eh ? Mine is not so dissimilar a story I guess. Missed the uniform, being told what to do and when to do it, and being back in a disciplined organisation, did wonders for my many mood swings, and bouts of that annoying 'black dog', which still persists even to this day ? Otherwise Chris, I don't know what would've become of me. Probably I'd be wearing green, instead of blue, who knows ? Another thing, I could drink gallons of Millers faster than they could brew it ! After marching out of the Redfern Barracks, I swore I'd never touch another drop. And I haven't, ever.

Also Chris, with some of the many negative issues we've all had to contend with, in the job. I'll NOT idly standby and allow some presumptuous sloth to run the job or it's members down, without at least a tolerable riposte in kind.

I, as well as many others, copped enough of that 'stuff' in the late sixties. I'll not accommodate such unfounded, unverified spreading of rumours, together with other scurrilous 'pap', now that I'm in my seventies. Thanks mate, and keep your powder dry.

o sung wu,
Ah! Redfern Barracks, Not unlike basic at Pukka but perhaps a little more sophisticated. Millers is long gone now and so is mine, Reschs 'P'
I tried out for the horses but they didn't like me, same with the bikes but I managed to get my first brief with the water boys because of my underwater demo training with the yanks per the 173rd. Airborne out of Okinawa on detachment to 1RAR (March 1965) from Div HQ (Intelligence recon)

Spent most of the next 6 years attached to the Yanks as Intel Liaison and CO/harbor/tunnel clearance. Came home Mid August 71 brain dead.

JAYB must have had a rough trot with 1RAR and that hell fight at Coral
Our was was bad enough but can't imagine what these kids in Iraq and Afghanistan are going through.

No, 2-2alpha, B Coy. 5 Pl,4 Section. I was a chook for a while, hence the callsign. Coral was 2nd tour. We had Ho Bo Woods & Silver City.

Back on track, Yes these blokes will have a whole heap of Mental problems after their experience in Syria/Lebanon/Iraq. Especially as there is no Geneva Convention for them to worry about, like we had to. Their War is, & will be very dirty. There seems to be more than one side in their case. Hmmm, I don't see the Greens up in arms about what they do.

Hence my opposition to them coming back to Australia all fired up & Super Religious. Can we keep them out, Yes we can.

CHAPTER III – CESSATION CLAUSES A. General

113. Article 1 C of the 1951 Convention provides that:

“This Convention shall cease to apply to any person falling under the terms of section A if:

(1) He has voluntarily re-availed himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; or

(2) Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily re-acquired it; or

(3) He has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality; or

(4) He has voluntarily re-established himself in the country which he left or outside which he remained owing to fear of persecution;

Hi again CHRISGAFF1000...

You said you only joined the 'boaties' because they gave you a S & W Mod 60/66 in .38spec, Stainless ? While the rest of us carried the trusty 3" Mod 10 in .38spec. When all the while I thought you Water Police blokes got to wear (issue) shorts !

Seriously, you'd well remember NSWP were the first force to be fully equipped with the Mod 10, .38spec. Of course some of the more specialised units/squads carried all manner of armaments like WP, and SWOS, etc. Still and all, for a State Government to uniformly arm the entire force with the same weapon system, was both a large and quite costly exercise, considering the bits 'n pieces which were usually issued out to members. The old Webley & Scott, .32 SLP, the Harrington & Richardson and the trusty but ancient Iver Johnson revolver, to name just a few. All of which were typical examples. I understand also, most were seized in the commission of a crime, and provided they were deemed serviceable and safe, they were subsequently issued to members ? They were the days of lace-up boots, before the more comfortable elastic side Baxter's were issued ?

I should immediately refrain, from this sentimental journey, and return to the Topic at hand.

Those poor misguided Muslim youngsters, who feel an appreciable need to go fight in some unspecified conflict in far off Syria. And having done so, to once again return to this 'giving' bosom of ours in good old benevolent Australia. Even willing to put-up with this vacuous society and a filthy culture, they all despise and uniformly hate !

Nevertheless, for the greater good, they'll forgive us, albeit temporarily. By hesitantly holding out their grubby hands, for another share of that generous 'bounty' they all know they'll receive. And receive in an abundance, to once again fund their next excursion into another war that hasn't yet started ? All this with the flow of massive tributes and accolades from every hard-working and law-abiding Australian taxpayer ! It really couldn't get any better ?

Nice to see some "Duty First" on here, Cheers, from an "Old Faithful".

Good evening CHRISGAFF1000 & JAYB...

Yep it was all a long time ago - Coral, Coogee, Balmoral. And with the Long Hai's, often lit up like a birthday cake, with the sincerest best wishes of the Yanks B52's nightly sorties. And for what ?

I really wonder why some migrants find it necessary to have dual passports, like many of these blokes going off to Syria ? If they wish to settle here in Oz, make it their home, improve their lot in life, why have two passports ? Surely an Australian Passport is more than sufficient ? Or is it they have some ulterior motive ? Engaged in some undisclosed illegal activity perhaps ? Just asking, that's all ?

I do wonder, whether or not many of these young blokes would really possess the 'right stuff'; a sufficiently good enough character, in order to make a positive contribution to Australia, and to the Australian way of life, in this - 'their' country ? A frightening thought wouldn't you agree ?

And, CHRISGAFF I hope you've extended the hours of operation, for your RSL; Pensions and Welfare Office, for these war weary lads returning from Syria ? You'll need a whole new set of Pension Guides from Vet. Affairs, if you ever hope to keep abreast with these Syrian TPI applications ? Laugh not my friend nothing, I repeat nothing, would surprise me ?

o sung wu,
"Mates4Mates" and Men's Shed are being fast tracked into service but the main problem is VA cash flow for services and the absolute shortage of qualified (experienced) psychiatrists over and above disqualified TAFE trained psychologists.
Fiddling with the brain is a pretty exact science and I've seen some really disastrous results from so called expert involvement.
It is a pretty big leap from bushfire counseling to combat stress.
Actually you were very close to the mark. I knew about the SS 38s and I'de heard about the shorts.
From memory the boots and my shirts were actually made in the prison system somewhere and my first issue was a "scull crusher" Webley complete with leather flap holster and lanyard.
Fired the thing a couple of times under Wynyard then went and bought a used but good .38 S&W Terrier 2" and got the local saddle maker to run up a belt clip holster. Still got it too.
Back then we had to hide our weapons from the public. Didn't want to alarm them.

Chriss,

That reminds me of two young Constables who came into Sol Rohu's basement range to try out their just issued pistols, this would have been just before Christmas 1958 or 1959.

One had been issued with a .32 Mauser and the other had a .32 Webley (both semi-auto) the Mauser fired faultlessly but the Webley wouldn't fire the first shot. The resident gunsmith checked it out and found that the bronze firing pin was jammed by verdigris, a quick clean and it fired OK but the incident left one Constable a bit less confident in his superiors.

On PTSD.
There is a piece in the latest Reveille entitled "Afghanistan and its aftermath" by Tyson Murray.
It's a first person account of his continuing battle with PTSD.

Noted there PHILLIPS, Noted !

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

Gee mate you've sure been around. You ever thought about going into your own private practice, post your PP, Petty Sessions days ? You were all fully qualified with an LLB ? I'm afraid I never amounted to very much, other than putting in a few years (32+ to be precise). And your attachment to the US would've been a lark too I should imagine. As I've said, you've sure seen a lot, absolutely.

What you say about PTSD is very true, and the remarks from IS MISE is just another reoccurring tale I believe, of which we're hearing more and more frequently. I had an occasion to speak with this bloke who was in Rwanda, with the Aussie, UN Peacekeepers. After which I thought we'd had it fairly tough, but nothing compared to what these poor blokes had experienced.

Standing by in platoon strength, fully armed and kitted out, and while not more than 70-80 metres away, a group of savages (feral 'soldiers') were systematically hacking to death, unarmed men, women, and children. Apparently these predators fired not a single shot, they merely employed these machetes, by swinging them about with gay abandon, pausing every so often to catch their collective breathes, with blood simply awash over the entire area !

Yet these proud, well trained Aussie Soldiers, had to muster-up from the depths of their souls, this supreme discipline and inordinate levels of self control, and N O T shoot down these.....these...... these.....'people' ?

That CHRIS, personified every single ingredient necessary for legitimate PTSD ! Unless you've actually witnessed such a horror, it doesn't matter one iota, if you're the most qualified Psychiatrist or Clinical Psychologist, you'd never be able to have an accurate appreciation of how bad, such a situation and it's effect could be on soldiers. In SV we could at least shoot back !

O sung wu, I spent some time with 31St. Battalion in Townsville. One of my friends always gave me a hard time about being in Vietnam. Then he crossed over to the Regs as a Driver. He was at the Massacre. To get there they had to actually drive, on the bodies, on the road, for over 11 Mile. They could not leave the road because of the mines on the edges. Apparently what we saw on TV was only about 100th. of the area of the bodies. He sought me out to apologize for his past behaviour towards me. He was & still is a mess. We were Sergeants in 31.

Unfortunately, these young Islamic people have a different mind set to us. We are judging them on our Western Values & how WE would cope with what they will see. I don't believe it will be exactly the same for them. I believe that the way these young Middle eastern people will deal with the problem is to become even more violent, more payback of their opposite Sects & more steeled in their Religious fervour. Australians will bare the brunt of that when & if they are allowed back into Australia.

'evening there JAYB...

They really haven't a clue. Ours (Vietnam) could never be described as a picnic, nevertheless we had substantial support in many ways, both from our subordinates, our peers and superiors.

Whereas these so called Syrian warriors, other than their zealousness and radicalism, have little or no formal structure in which to engage themselves to. Taking part in a fight which there's no clear delineation between right and wrong. Seemingly, nor do they have any meaningful support upon their return from Syria ?

And as you quite rightly suggest, they'll return here, as irate, angry and highly indignant young man. Moreover with this aggressiveness they'll harbour a belief system which is absolutely incompatible with anything we have here, in Oz. Where problems are best solved with violence. And personal qualities like tolerance and passivity are viewed as weakness or worse cowardice ?

o sung wu,
I have enough on my plate mate,
I spend a lot of time in the courts and tribunals arguing the case for pensions for ex defense force members and even now I cannot understand why the VA wants to deny their pensions in the first place.
These days we get the boys to report any and every physical, emotional or psychological incident both in a personal diary and with the unit GMO. That way the task in court is made a lot easier.
Rwanda was a place that no man should have been sent to. I have listened to a few stories and I almost cried too.
Those machetes came here to Australia with the so called refugees but they soon threw them away in favor of the cane knife because it has that extra hook on the back edge that terrifies even more.
I pick up a living these days as a PI mainly in insurance and fire investigation so I'm pretty busy.
Modern technology take a lot of the legwork out of the job today.
I think they rolled the 31st into the 51st and we now quarter them here just south of Cairns,

Banjo as the evidence mounts we can see reason for concerns here.
Seems the deaths of two Australians is opening up the whole question.
Both appear to be Australians and Christians at birth.
The Woman called her home Bin Ladens Cave!
Current government moves to halt Australians leaving to fight in these wars is under way.
However looking at the back ground of these two, we may confront problems here at home

Belly,
I share your concerns here, looking deeper into this woman's background and about the citizens of ours when they return home.

ASIO and Fed police are rightly concerned about the conduct of some who return.

Must go out and will comment further later.

Banjo when others take us to task for our views and concerns I wounder.
Do they see the Anglo birth of these latest two? did they understand the extreme militant nature of their teacher recently charged?
Let us not hide our heads and for that matter minds, true danger exists for us here.
Some may think fighting herein the lunatic cause is the right thing.
Some could bring those thoughts home after fighting away.

We should re look at Americas home grown terrorists from the 60,s and 70,s.
And Europe many such as the Barder Minhoff gang.
Ever day more evidence comes just how militant and rude these two from our country and our race became and how badly people we gave shelter to have betrayed us like their teacher
No prophet needed here our country will see a terrorist action here soon we must confront that, we have imported our enemy

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

As you say, you do have a FULL plate with all the honorary tasks you perform. Freely working for and on behalf of the many Vets who can't, or unable to speak up for themselves, I think is absolutely amazing, the exceptional 'good' you do ! I really feel so, so, ashamed Chris. Me, 'snug' with my shiny gold card, and with it, in receipt of a 100% disability pension from DVA. Plus a pretty decent police pension which handsomely augments it ? And I occasionally ask myself, why shouldn't I get off my fat arse and do something for someone else for a change ?

Reflecting on days spent in Kapooka, then later Corps training, and then off to tropical Canungra. I was pretty proud of myself in those days ? And after we were repatriated back home, we all crawled about in our civvies, most too ashamed to declare we were back from SV ? My best mate asked if I 'enjoyed' myself while I was away, and did I manage to pick up any 'slope' women while there ?

Sure we 'enjoyed' ourselves, every time we went outside the wire, to beautiful downtown Dat Do, building bridges of understanding with the inhabitants who lived there...And sure, we 'enjoyed' those bloody rashes you get in your groin and back soon after you arrived at the Oz Task Force Base at the (Nui) 'Dat'. Or providing you weren't getting crook taking that rotten Dapsone and Paludrine stuff, that allegedly knocked Malaria, though I reckon worsened my rashes, which still return even now occasionally !

Sorry there Chris, I'm rambling on very badly. Which is disgustingly selfish and self-serving ! Syria, and those who choose to fight there. Gentleman, you've got it all in front of you, believe me ! And should you survive, you'll enjoy a randomly short life ?

o sung wu,

As a tip if you want to do some volunteering, there are plenty of elders who live alone and benefit from someone regularly dropping in for a cup of tea and a chat. Don't forget those living independently and not receiving welfare.

It is away from this thread, but Au is a country that has quickly developed a reputation for ignoring its old. It is commonplace to meet grandparents who have been alienated from grandchildren (the US too). Many more are seen only infrequently if at all by children who appear more interested in inheritance.

Just contact one of your local mainstream churches and go from there. It gets you out of the house as well.

One does not have to be a scholar to appreciate the mental problems our diggers faced on their return home from service in overseas war zones. Even reading some of the posts here by former vets gives a small insight into their problems and they were there at the behest of our government and have our general support.

I shudder to think of the mental condition and attitudes of those that may return from Syria. It is that and the experience and training they receive while there that posses a threat to our community. I wonder if our governments will take much notice or action, or will they just ignore the dangers and hope it will pass.

Of the two that prompted this thread, the male was a muslim convert and the female was always muslim but educated in an Anglican college. Apparently, if media reports are correct, she was a bright and popular girl but later reports indicate that she changed and became radical in her outlook and her actions. It may yet come to light why this happened, but there are many parents who wonder why some young people change. Most young that 'run off the rails' get back on again with the added responsibility of a partner, a job, children, etc. But there seems to be a minority in each generation that do not settle down.

The muslim community seem to have more than their share of those with extreme views that take an anti social attitude. That radical shiek Feiz bloke had no trouble getting large audiences of the young to preach to at Liverpool and I recall the muslim riots of last September which occurred over some stupid video made overseas.

There is genuine concern about the possible conduct of those that return from Syria.

That is indeed a very kind thought, from you ONTHEBEACH. I realise there's many elderly, lonely people out there, some in desperate straits, unable to pay for even meagre amounts of power they use, for cooking let alone heating or cooling. Some though quite old and infirm, still need to pay rent ! And governments claim they're looking after them with generous subsidies for power, rental and other necessities of life ?

When I was working, I had occasion to often meet with those generous people who delivered 'meals on wheels' in situ, to many of these older folk. Sadly, we were sometimes summoned because one of their clients failed to answer the door, they had died. This happened more frequently then many people would imagine. Loneliness for the elderly is a dreadful state of affairs, in a country like Oz ?

ONTHEBEACH I'll take a closer look at it, after most people had returned to work - end of January. I know my dear wife would support it absolutely ! Thank you my anonymous friend for your sage advice, together with some excellent and positively sensible threads !

The experience these dupes gain in Syria will make them more effective in the traditional Middle Eastern pursuits of car re-birthing, drug dealing and insurance fraud. They will fit in well with outlaw motorcycle gangs and Brothers for Life. They will be able to mingle Koranic verse with profanity as they eject patrons out of night clubs in Sydney.

OTB: As a tip if you want to do some volunteering, there are plenty of elders who live alone and benefit from someone regularly dropping in for a cup of tea and a chat. Don't forget those living independently and not receiving welfare.

I have a whole street of little old lady widows, I've got me hands full believe me. ;-) oh! fixing Computers, STB's, Mowing Lawns, chasing snakes, etc.

Banjo: That radical Shiek Feiz bloke had no trouble getting large audiences of the young to preach to at Liverpool.

Why are they letting this bloke stay in Australia. I have seen him on TV many times, excess wives, creating problems between Sunni & Shia.

It's time the Government had a good look at his Naturalization Certificate & cancelled it. If he wants to get into the action by sending people to Syria maybe he should have a research tour, you know, like Politicians do. He may like it so much he'll stay there. Nar, Like Politicians he'll just stand back & Send in the Clowns.

G'day there BELLY...It's great to see you return from your self- imposed rest ! Formalities aside, you mentioned, we Australians have imported our own brand of terrorists, with our unrestricted 'open door' policy by permitting people who, by and large, are relatively without any serious background examination, by either ASIO, ASIS or the Police. Many are from nations that have a broad Islamic culture together with a tough sharia system of law.

You'll find sharia law practised right here in Sydney. You only need to visit Bankstown, Punchbowl, Wiley Park, Lakemba, and Greenacre to cite a few, to see the overt evidence and witness it's unfettered dispersal throughout metropolitan Sydney.

Seemingly, we train these young men hereabouts, and send them off to Syria ? 'IF' they manage to return alive, they'll return with a whole new bag of prescriptive combat strategies and technology ! All this, with a renewed enthusiasm and a readiness for their next excursion into a country the needs a firm dose of 'concentrated' sharia law ! At least here, they don't have very far to travel ?

Ah this is always fun.

Let's go find us some hypocrites.

We have many Jewish people in our country who have dual Australian/Israeli citizenship. Quite a number returned to Israel to participate in Operation Cast Lead, an action that resulted in 13 Israeli deaths and over 1,500 Palestinian casualties, between 4-500 of them children. Much of the word deemed what occurred to be a war crime.

Today we have the active recruitment in our country of young Australians to fight overseas for another government.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-28/australian-zionists-prepare-to-join-israeli-army/4397478

And it seems that about 400 have answered the call in the last 4 years.

“Ben Milston is one of many young Australian Jews who wants to be a combat soldier in the Israeli Defence Force. He has started training around Bondi Beach to build up his fitness for what lies ahead. "I imagine [you need to be] pretty fit. I'm trying to build up strength and core and everything, got to get prepared," he said. It is an ambition which will put Mr Milston on the front line in an ongoing and bitter conflict. "It's one of those things; what are you willing to give up and what are you willing to die for?" he said.

Should this be stopped? Do we need to get ASIO involved? Should those who go and get military training in Israel be denied entry back into Australia and have their citizenship revoked?

Really looking forward to your responses.

steeleredux! you only need a mirror to find at least one!
See as far as my memory will allow I never saw a Jewish terrorist.
Not one march/protest here about how we live.
No school bus blown up, no Young women murdered for going to school.
Still if it rocks you boat go ahead.
Many of us however know only too well such comments are feeble and unrelated to the issue.
May I offer help?
Consider if you must our dreadful hidden guilt.
Shhh keep it quite we Aussies went to two word wars to?
Fight for England!
Useless information but much in the mold of your post.

Well said Belly.

Terrorist Sympathizer: We have many Jewish people in our country who have dual Australian/Israeli citizenship. Quite a number returned to Israel to participate in Operation Cast Lead, an action that resulted in 13 Israeli deaths and over 1,500 Palestinian casualties, between 4-500 of them children. Much of the word deemed what occurred to be a war crime.

Welcome back, Been to Syria?

At least these young Jews do their service in a Governments legitimate Army & receive proper instruction, nor religious brainwashing. When they come back they fit into normal Australian society.

The young Muslims who are going to Syria will not join a legitimate Army. They will not receive any type of training & will be brainwashed by the terrorist group the join. When they come back here they will be full of Islamic fervour & crazier than when they left. They will not assimilate, or even wish too, normal Australian society. Therefore thy will pose a threat to Australia.

Belly,
You say "See as far as my memory will allow I never saw a Jewish terrorist."
What about the terrorist bombings of British soldiers in Israel when the Jews were fighting the Brits for their home country. They invented suicide bombing and even trained the IRA.

Jayb
Perhaps the returning Jews can take on the returning Muslims in some public forum like the SCG for the entertainment of the people and the profits of the media.

I seem to remember a young Australian who went to Greece to visit his grandparents and was promptly grabbed by the Greek Army to do his two years service.
He was an Australian born and bred but under Greek law he was a Greek citizen.

The Australian Government did bugger all to help him.

chrisgaff1000: Perhaps the returning Jews can take on the returning Muslims in some public forum like the SCG for the entertainment of the people and the profits of the media.

Now that would be interesting. The Audience would only be Jewish & Muslim, of course. Us normal Australians heathens could watch it on the Big Screen outside. (Gutter Party.) We'd need the Fire Brigade there for the clean-up afterwards though. How do think they'd go getting big sponsors from the alcohol companies?

Dear Jayb,

Well look at that, slinging the label 'Terrorist Sympathiser' right off the bat.

How have you been matey? Kind of missed you a little. Use to love the way you would stick your nose out just that little bit too far and get it tweaked every time. You just couldn't help yourself. We will have to see if it is still as much fun as it use to be. I don't think I will have to wait long.

To the topic.

When you said;

Quote;

“Banjo: There is another body of thought that suggests we allow those who want to go there to let them but then cancel their passports or other means to not allow them back.
OTB: Revoke their dual citizenship immediately.
Hasbeen: Yep cancel their passports.
Suseonline: However, if they commit serious crimes (like war crimes/murder etc) while overseas, then they should have their citizeLet them. People who are keen to run off to be shot, maimed and killed are examples of Darwinism in action. nship revoked and not be allowed to return.
TL: Let them.
Planet3: ...let them go and revoke their Australian passports.
Bazz: The very least they can be denied by their country and passport and citizenship cancelled.

Thank you Banjo, OTB, Hasbeen, suseonline, TL, Planet3, & Bazz. I have advocated this on here before & wholly support that idea.”

End quote.

Well it not appear you weren't making a universal statement. Instead you were specifically talking about those who were fighting in Somalia or Syria or just Muslim in general. Okay. Perhaps in the future you might be so kind as to preface your pronouncements and pontifications. It may serve to lessen the confusion over your true agenda.

Dear Belly,

I have to say the rhetoric and bile that is getting thrown around now in some of these threads has you appearing in a better light than I remember. I suppose you have not been indulging in the steroids of an Abbott victory like the others.

Anyway niceties aside you say “See as far as my memory will allow I never saw a Jewish terrorist. Not one march/protest here about how we live. No school bus blown up, no Young women murdered for going to school.”

I'm afraid there are plenty of example of Jewish terrorism. “On 27 April 1984, Shin Bet agents arrested 15 people with ties to Gush Emunim. The suspects were taken into custody immediately after placing bombs under six Arab-owned buses in Jerusalem.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Underground

But that is hardly the point. I think if we are going to condemn young Australians for going to fight in conflicts over seas for other allegiances that it should be universal and likewise the responses of our government. If you want to single out a specific religious or ethnic group that this should apply to then you have that right but expect to be called out on it.

steelredux: Well it not appear you weren't making a universal statement. Instead you were specifically talking about those who were fighting in Somalia or Syria or just Muslim in general.

Dur!

Steelredux: Perhaps in the future you might be so kind as to preface your pronouncements and pontifications.

eh?

Steelredux: It may serve to lessen the confusion over your true agenda.

No agenda. Is it nice in Syria this time of year, or was it a bit hot for you? ;-) We haven't hear from you usual compatriots for a while either. Are they still over there?

Would you like to comment on the text below. No?

CHAPTER III – CESSATION CLAUSES
A. General
113. Article 1 C of the 1951 Convention provides that:

“This Convention shall cease to apply to any person falling under the terms of section A if:

(1) He has voluntarily re-availed himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; or

(2) Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily re-acquired it; or

(3) He has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality; or

(4) He has voluntarily re-established himself in the country which he left or outside which he remained owing to fear of persecution; o

Unless I am wrong and I have been jayb has been unmasked here as active in very far left groups.
Ahh Should I?
Rather think those Jewish terrorists fought the British in their own land?
Extremes right and left often out do them selves in trying to look like Nazi,s in relation to Israel.
No way I am calling them saints but can we look just briefly at Islamic terrorism?
Another death Australian , this time just maybe with ethnic back ground other than ours.
Nothing meant by that.
May I however remind posters we are told by the bleeding hearts we should let refugees from that part of the world in.
To shelter from war.
While others rush to get involved?
Steel afraid I have news, lifetime ALP voter trying desperately to remind my party/life,s love Australians on all sides think differently than some of them do, in fact some of them never had an original thought in their life.
Just lucky we are confronted by far worse.

Belly: Unless I am wrong and I have been jayb has been unmasked here as active in very far left groups.

No, you're wrong. I don't belong to any groups at all. unless you'd call the R.S.L., V.V.A., & the Men's Shed. Other than that I'll slam/praise all sides if I feel they deserve it. I'll certainly slam the little Terrorists going off to fight in Syria under the guise of Humanitarian help. I just hope they take their Australian Passports/Citizenship off them as a bonus.

I don't know how they let steelie back into the country. I sure ASIO has a good file on him.

jayb fair enough I withdraw my comment.
In this issue emotion can not be ignored.
I surely as a left of center person should be on the other side of this debate.
I can never bring myself to do that.
Like it or lump it my lifetime has been my University, live and learn.
Nothing can convince me we have at the least, lost something of great value in taking SOME Muslims in, that being a damaged culture.
I [know this will bring the roof down] honestly see a very big difference in some Muslim races.
Education can be at the leave of the once great and historic Muslim Nations.
Once Muslims lead in education and we gained much from them.
Re writing their Holly book and its intention has blackened them in my view.
And the barley Human/hate filled stupidity flogging a burning car hate driven blindness we see if a single act by a single person upsets the religion and its followers.
Consider my sharp words condemning some in Christianity and try to convince me if those words had been about Islam riots and pure hate would not come from with in the religion of hate some Muslims belong to.
Truth stands no matter how much we may try to disguise it.
Many feel threatened and always will by our imported troubles.
Are we in the name of religion to become a base for wars over seas
A breeding ground for wars based in the end on religions difference within Islamic cultures?

Jayb,
Be careful we are watching you.
RSL Menshed and VVA are all well known left/right/middle wing groups along with the Fisho's and the Fat Bastards Car Club.
Their declared aim is to disrupt the flow of beer supplies by drinking it faster than it can be produced.

"Their declared aim is to disrupt the flow of beer supplies by drinking it faster than it can be produced."

Conscription, or are there enough volunteers?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542013/Two-British-men-court-charged-planning-travel-Syria-engage-acts-terrorism.htmlThis link shows other country,s are breeding grounds for fighters in a war other than the ones the west gave refuge, from war in.
CG 1000 my words to jayb came from another here some time ago leveling that charge and seemed they knew each other.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541688/Schoolboys-aged-just-15-Frances-youngest-Jihadists-flying-Syria-fight-Al-Qaeda.html
Yet another link this time to a different country.
Seems the refugee bit is questionable.
Here two 15 year old,s return or try to Syria to fight not escape wars.

Belly: CG 1000 my words to jayb came from another here some time ago levelling that charge and seemed they knew each other.

Not unless CG1000 was in Bien Hoa in 65/66, but I think he came back to Australia when they were transferred to Bien Hoa in 65.

It took some time to find it on your link, but you are right, Belly. France & Britain also supply lots of fighters. I see they have done something about it though. They are cancelling their duel passports which means, don't come back.

Now that what we have to do here. Firstly encourage them to go, not stop them from going. Any funny business here & they get shipped there weather they like it or not. I'd start with that big fat bloke that on TV all the time. He seams to cause a lot of the trouble between the different Islamic Sects.

Jayb,
In mid June (65) the orders for my mob (173rd Air) were cut, by Westmoreland I think, to deploy to Bien Hoa after some self harm incident that almost crippled the base.
The 173rd was a fully operational unit that could operate independently if required but needed an air base to jump out off.
The deployment gave them a base and gave the base a much needed protection umbrella.
My job in clearance/intel kept me based in Saigon a piss and fart away from the base if needed.

Dear jayb,

You laughingly wrote;

“At least these young Jews do their service in a Governments legitimate Army & receive proper instruction, nor religious brainwashing. When they come back they fit into normal Australian society.”

Or perhaps you were serious, often hard to tell.

From this I can only conclude that you would be okay with young Syrians going back to serve in the Syrian government Army where they can 'receive proper instruction, not religious instruction' so that 'when they come back they will be able to fit into normal Australian society'.

Well I suppose chemical weapons are not that much of a stretch from phosphorous rounds being delivered into civilian areas. Both are considered war crimes.

And you do realise don't you that Israel is a religious state?

Well if you are going to be consistent then I suppose I can only applaud the stance even if I don't agree with it.

I ask the threads author for an opinion.
My two links above record France and England have the same problem/matter of interest, you pick what one you like.
Now other threads get very heated as we consider what wars some are fleeing.
And just why we let que jumpers badly miss treat those waiting in line.
Perhaps Abbott can lend that group his life boats.
Question, as second and third generation Muslims are returning to their parents homes, or for that matter other Muslim Nations to fight is refugee from war still a legitimate reason for coming here.
Could the actions of some of these nice folk get us government to government involved?
As we turn our backs on West Papua in fear of offending Indonesia , even sending true refugees back can we continue to harbor and breed soldiers in other country,s wars.

You are right Belly. We are in a $#!t load of trouble from the friends of our resident terrorists.

http://news.yahoo.com/france-alarmed-rise-young-fighters-headed-syria-183034701.html