The vote for Bill Shorten (largely along factional lines) narrowly overwhelmed the wishes of the rank and file, giving a result that was pretty much pre-determined. Does the vote mean that the labor members really have a say or that they were involved in a month long pantomime to present a facade of legitimacy?

Given that Bill was deeply involved in the toppling of Rudd and then Gillard, and has little support among the rank and file, will he now be looking over his shoulder for Albo's knife?

Looking broader than Labor, will Bill 'fess up to Labor's errors in the past and go forward with a clean slate, or just try and spin his way out?

And at his first interview he says "they" believe in global warming, & a carbon tax.

You've got to give it to them, they could find an idiot with their eyes shut.

Caucus has taken no notice whatsoever of the wishes of Labor's rank and file.

What is it all about if it isn't about the wishes of the public, who in this case are represented by the supporters, the rank and file? There process should allow for some attempt at reaching a consensus through open and transparent consultation with the rank and file.

Thinking dispassionately about it, the caucus has got the choice of leader wrong every time over recent years. That is most likely because how politicians vote depends on what agreements they have made behind closed doors to favour themselves and knobble their competitors. They vote to cater for their ambition.

Shorten is a weak, spineless man who will be putty in the hands of union bosses and anyone else who can influence him.

Australian minister: 'I don't know what the PM said, but I agree' –
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/apr/27/australian-minister-video

Labor desperately needed a leader who could relied upon to stand firm on long-held Labor values and traditions that have been trashed by self-seeking, egocentric, careerist politicians like Julia Whatshername and Rudd.

That Caucus has bowled up another of the same means that the rank and file will see more of the same political opportunism and selfish pursuit of material benefits and status rather than commitment to high standards of behaviour. The leadership has shown a lack of principles and ethics, and relentless pursuit of self-interestof the leadership, which includes the (now) shadow ministers over the past decade and more, regrettably.

The splits will continue. They will be cannibalised by their on-again, off-again side-kicks the Greens.

So here we go again, the faceless men are alive and kicking.

They have all but spat in the face of their rank and file members, saying, we want your input, but not that it will count.

Some things will never change, but at least we won't see this mob in power again for a long long time.

What do we have above 'A Conservative Love Fest' SM gets the ball rolling and then the 3 wise men line up to agree.
When Tony Baloney done the hatchet job on Turnbull, what was the rank and file vote SM? It was what the faceless men of the Collins Street board rooms decided and that was it. Where is the grass roots democracy in the Liberal Party?

I see the pure glee in the usual suspects.
And find I have no place to hide.
I agree.
Let us forever forget this change while nice to think our voices are heard, has any truth in it.
Do not forget Shorten will be a Brilliant leader.
But know to the caucus has had its way, it was to see the votes of every 300 members worth that of just one caucus member!
Above all it places the party squarely in the hands not of its membership, but the very faction that bought us to our knees in 2010.
I can pretend it is not so, duck my head and hide my dismay, under the umbrella of solidarity.
My heart is not in it, solidarity is a dark place that avoids truth, and hides crimes against the ALP rank and file.
However if he can mount the mountain of hurt his election brings my party comrades.
If as I think he will, he leads in reforms Bill Shorten by his future actions may yet put his past behind him.
Albo know it is your task to keep our party on its way to truly giving us a say.

Belly,

That is a healthy way to take it. Not much any of the rank and file can do about it.

While I might poke fun at Shorten, who is the metrosexual's metrosexual and everyman to anyone who can further his career (after first receiving direction from his missus), I do not take any glee from what has been happening to the Party of Labor stalwarts of decades past. They would be turning in their graves.

I reckon the party faithful got it right and they should have been listened to.

I reckon Albanese should be deputy leader now. It is the sensible thing to do to put someone solid under the self-promoting front man. But Labor would have to do the politically correct thing and elevate a woman because she is a woman, right? Macklin is a worker and reliable, which will probably disqualify her. Almost anyone but Wong or Plibersek, please. Both are show ponies.

The faction riddled Labor Party has no choice other than installing Plibersek as deputy, the left faction has already anointed her for the position, which is theirs. The so called "vote" always guaranteed a Shorten win. The pretense of grass roots democracy by labor is just that a pretense.
Why not take a leaf out of The Greens book and see how grass roots democracy really works in a political party, no spin, no self servicing factional interests, just one big happy family.

"Do not forget Shorten will be a Brilliant leader." that is a big call Belly. He should look good against Abbott, but then a monkey would look good debating Abbott, would he not?

The biggest problem with Shorten as leader is that he is rampantly pro-growth, totally blind to the imperative of balancing supply and demand for all manner of goods, services and infrastructure, and hence totally sustainability-blind.

We are just going to get more of the same old tried and failed pursuance of growth, no matter what sort of growth.

Labor has entrenched itself in its old mindset, which is the most enormous pity. They had a wonderful opportunity to really significantly change direction towards Gillard’s desired ‘sustainable Australia’. But alas, they have just completely bombed out.

We so desperately need a strong opposition that can countenance the new government’s continuation of the absurd continuous growth approach to everything.

But what we’ve now got is basically an opposition which will pick away at the government on insignificant little side issues, while supporting them all the way on the really big philosophical issues, which are the things that desperately need opposing.

BS (Back stabber) Bill while presenting a fresh face to the voters comes with a lot of baggage.

As an ex union heavy weight he came with the skills to claw his way to the top. Each time he "acted in the party's interest" to knife a leader, he and his "faction" somehow ended up with more influence.

As for Belly's assurances that BS Bill will be a "brilliant" leader. this remains to be seen. His first challenge to Abbott is to keep the carbon tax. Given that this tax is still deeply unpopular, primarily the reason for labor losing office, and that Abbott now has the machinery of state, the message that labor is inflicting a higher cost of living on Australian's just to spite the coalition appears to me an endless free kick to the coalition.

Paul,

With respect to the liberal party, the democracy really starts at the bottom, where pre selection is largely determined by local members, not the labor method of parachuting in celebrities or allocated by factions.

Paul 1405,

You are probably right about the intrigue and deals that could give Plikersek the big lift into the deputy job.

Macklin has been producing the results in difficult roles - that others claim though. The show ponies might deliver slogans and throw profiles for hack reporters and their photographers, but Macklin is the far better presenter and debater because she is convincing. She has credibility, uses facts or is silent, and is down to earth. I believe she enjoys the respect of both sides of the House.

If women like Macklin were promoted, there would be more women voted into parliament - by women (and by men). Women voters see through the fraud and futility of voting on gender alone. They generally see right through the self-seeking careerists too (and better than men do). They want to see people with ability put up and if women with ability and credibility come forward and are given a guernsey by their party, they will be sitting in the House one day soon.

Not to mention that it gave the supremely immature, Shadow Minister an opportunity to make up another roolly clever namie.

Scintillating stuff, SM!

caw-cuss....lest..we forget
if the libs..had the same vote..we would have pm..whatshisface*

but...its not my party..its theirs
can we now talk.,..of..the more important things?

things that really matter
things that need higher thought..than..mere opinion

we..all got that..only cause media can sell that[impotent][sport]
yet..it cant inform..us of the really important..cause money talks louder than words

especially..if its free lunch/travel money..for elites
media dont want revealed as the crime it is

my work related costs..arnt even tax deductible
let alone refundable..how do they..get to feather their nest..with our feathers?

bill is what we earned
the..bill..is what they must get
if they dont..bill is gone..and he dont got the nutts..[nor the guts]

The most puzzling aspect of Labor's insistence on ignoring its membership in this leadership election is that they have taken such a huge bet against themselves.

Logic would surely dictate that the "rank-and-file", as everyone seems to call them, are closer to the electorate (remember them? the ones who actually vote in elections?) than a bunch of self-serving inner circle jobsworths. Which will come back and bite them when those folk are once again asked to troop off to the ballot box.

I guess it's unsurprising what people will do for some temporary job security. Presumably they are banking on the fact that by the time they are themselves voted out by those people whose views they have ignored, their pensions will have stacked up to the point where they just don't care.

Political commentators are telling us
that the "government has already moved to paint
the new Labor leader as the choice of the
'facelless men in the factions'."

This is rather
odd coming from a party that elects its leaders
through its caucus - and as Gerard Henderson stated
on the "Insiders" on Sunday morning, "politicians
should elect their party leaders."

The Labor leadership was a very tight result.
63.95 per cent of Caucus voted for Bill Shorten and
40.08 percent of membership voted for Antony Albanese.

Thus giving a 52 percent of the combined vote to Bill Shorten.

Tony Abbott won his caucus leadership by only one vote.
Mr Abbott polled 42 and Mr Turnbull 41.

In Mr Abbott's case it would appear the caucus were not
overwhelmingly in favour of him. At least Mr Shorten
got 63.95 percent from his party caucus.

Labor ran a good and fair competition which showed that
both men were popular but Bill Shorten a little more with
the caucus which is what counts in the end since they
know and work directly with the candidates.

Gerard Henderson's comment appears to be a fair one:
"Politicians should elect their Party leaders,"
they're the ones that do know and work directly with the
men.

I think Labor have shot themselves in the foot to a degree in trying to be democratic and at the same time maintaining the factional influence in leadership through the parliamentary members.
I do like the system The Greems employ, where you cannot contest any election be it from the local council to federal parliament, regardless of who you are, or what position within the party you may hold, unless you are endorsed by the rank and file. There cannot be any of this parachuting of people into seats, or the so called 'captains pick' etc, and Labor and Liberal do it all the time. A perspective candidate, even if they are a sitting member, have to front the rank and file and be voted on. The membership are given the opportunity to refuse the persons nomination, even if they are the only candidate.
The parliamentary leadership is then the responsibility of the parliamentary membership. I also prefer to see the person responsible for a particular area of policy doing the talking on that policy more so than the leader, not standing in the background nodding their head in agreement.

Foxy, "40.08 percent of membership voted for Antony Albanese"

How do you get that? See here,
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-13/bill-shorten-elected-labor-leader/5019116

The overall weighted result (not vote which is a different thing) and despite the strong structural gerrymander to favour the Caucus, there was still only a small margin in it:

Shorten, 52.02 weighted points, not actual votes
Albanese, 47.98 weighted points, not actual votes

From the start it was rigged in favour of Caucus, so why not just admit that instead of pretending that votes carried the result?

You can spin until you puke, but what happened is that the Caucus elected the leader.

How he was voted in is totally immaterial, as is how Abbott was voted in.

It is what & how he does now that will either lose or gain votes.

He is obviously not very politically dexterous, or he would have avoided answering the global warming/carbon tax question. He has shown that he will probably bumble along, appealing to the Paul's, Killarney's & Poirot's, but actually getting no closer to reality than the last two.

Pity, it would be nice to have an alternative, & I hope I'm wrong.

If you look at how they have started, Abbott is the one who is likely to be still in the same job 9 years from now.

It matters that only 1/3 of Labour's membership voted for Shorten.

Particularly because 'Showbag Bill', the nick the media says that Shorten's 'many enemies' call him, is there only by the grace of the vacillators in Caucus who now look to their reward (or punishment) for their preferences. Long memories in unions and Labor.

There will be very tough days ahead as Abbott runs a 'no surprises' and 'no feeding the chooks every 24 hours to provide headlines' government.

It is a fact that business and consumer confidence picked up when Abbott was elected and that looks like continuing. Business and consumers do not want the excitement of decisions on the run, which is what they got with newsworthy Rudd and Julia Whatshername (you know, the one who was more politically red than her hair colour, but sure likes the golden handshake from the taxpayers).

My apologies for the earlier error in my
previous post regarding the statistical
breakdown - it was Bill Shorten who got
40.08 per cent of the ALP Membership votes
whereas Anthony Albanese received 59.92 per cent.
Bill Shorten received 63.95 per cent of the
Caucus votes and Anthony Albanese received 36.05
percent. The overall vote resulted in Bill Shorten
at 52.02 per cent and Anthony Albanese at 47.98 per cent.

As I stated earlier it shows that both men are
popular but Shorten a little more with the Caucus
which is what counts in the end since the Caucus knows
and works directly with the candidates.

What happens next? - only time will tell. And it will
be interesting to see how favourably (or not)
the voters react to
Bill Shorten (and possibly Tania Plibersek) over Tony
Abbott and Warren Truss and whose approval ratings will
rise or fall.

We can only hope that the political
scenario in this country will not be a repeat of what
we've seen over these recent years. Where the
mentality of "whatever it takes" to win - seemed to prevail.
And also let us hope that Labor in Opposition
will not be as destructive as their opponents were.

how can anyone with half a brain describe this leadership process as 'democratic' .. when 1 caucus vote is equivalent to 380 party member votes ?

in a REAL election .. both caucus and public get votes of the same value ... for who will govern

how will Shorten actually get elected by the public .. when he clearly does not have the support of even a majority of Labor party members ?

Ludwig please understand I regard you as a good bloke.
And for the most part support your view we need not grow forever, and that the tipping point may be behind us.
To claim Bills biggest problem is population growth is folly.
Make no mistake at this time *every partyis pushing for a bigger Australia*
The election was open 9nly to Labors members and its *owners*/caucus, note that *thing*Conroy a close friend of Shorten has returned.
These two are the faction heads of the Victorian right.
Bless Tania, for yes time and events have changed my view,she comes from the side you can trust in Labor.
Bill is every bit as Brilliant as I have said.
I question if he is as committed to reform as he must be.
To reform Labor should!.
Give members the right to cross the floor, not having that simple right gave the filth in NSW Solidarity a cheapened smelly word now, to continue to nearly mortally hurt us all.
Let members have a say in electing senators, members always not the star/mate of the leadership team.
And stop the true rubbish coming from a man who never should be in ALP ranks the truly rank and vile Conroy, we never had a voice in this symbolical farce and Conroy a power broker and nothing else wants to take that away!
I hold, many in my party hold a far lessor opinion of Conroy than any person in any party bar the now gone Mirabela

Dear Belly,

I like this statement from Bill Shorten:

"Going forward in the Labor Party you will see
less discussions of personalities and who supports
what personalities and more of what are the ideas
that make Labor relevant to the future of Australians."

Yay!

"Hard work and having good things to say about people
rather than negative things in the long run pays off."

Double Yay!

Paul1405 mate! what have I done to deserve that!
Please let me swallow my pain and contempt for my partys smack in the face.
Use greens way? look my good sparing partner at what it produced as a leader.
Well noway around it some just do not understand the man, some do, only too well.
Bill Shorten is a Brilliant man,and has been tagged as a future Prime Minister from his first days in the union movement.
He proved his strength and ability's by stopping the Australian Workers Union, his now power bast, imploding, only he kept it alive.
He will be *loved* I once thought of him as God.
I still know he is going to be the same man brilliant.
But too I know the party,s knows, he knifed Rudd, a man who should walk away now from Federal politics.
And for some supported Gillard for far too long.
Then knifed her.
If, and we will, we are to put the three years behind us Bill must confront the caucus and ask himself this.
Has he the guts to big our best ever leader?
Can he transform the section of our party that is a dumping ground for mates and ex union heads.
Give us a true voice and true power.
And bloke, you may well have been well educated but this member who passed in emptying rubbish bins and picking free school milk bottles after use tells you this
*Bloke before you champion seats for short females with one eye know the ability of the candidate is first and only measure*
Your silly holding seats for gays is offensive to even them we know even if you wish we did not you risk loss over all of votes for making fun of our party.
Warts and all my opinion will be on if you do fold to the caucus or confront them on behalf of rank and file give us a real vote.

It’s up to Labor’s new leader to change his public perception if he is to have a shot at winning the next election. Check Liam Quinn's opinion on http://www.upstart.net.au/2013/10/14/the-change-bill-needs-to-be/.

Belly until your party, & it's supporters come out of the Global Warming dark age, you are lost.

The next 10 or 20 years are going to witness the retreat from the fraud of catastrophic global warming, to the wonder of how did we ever fall for that?

All of you should go to JoNova's site today. It has David Evans story of his retreat from gravy train rider, & almost convinced warmists, to semi, almost convinced skeptic.

He is not convinced enough to believe CO2 doesn't have a place in the warming equation, but is convinced enough to have bet against the wild predictions of the IPCC & other government funded hysterical organisations.

This is a totally honest admission of confusion by a once committed warmist.

It really is worth reading no matter what your leaning, & should be required reading for some. He won't support your leanings, no matter what they are, but should give all food for thought.

Belly what do you mean comrade? I did say "Do not forget Shorten will be a Brilliant leader." that is a big call Belly. He should look good against Abbott, but then a monkey would look good debating Abbott, would he not?
I said a big call "Brilliant" I would consider Gough was "Brilliant". To apply that tag to Shorten is a little premature. He have a a very mediocre opponent in Abbott to contend with, but again Liberal PM's have been generally poor performers, take Howard for instance, a corn ball if ever there was one.
A democratic test for the ALP will come up very soon when Carr throws in the towel. I say if the party appoints Sam Dastyari instead of Mick Mundine then we'll know the NSW right has triumphed once again.
Belly, comrade, there are very few of us on here to oppose the opinions of the "Ratbag Right" and I do believe people from OS even sometimes read this stuff, I don't know why, there telly must be on the blink or something. We do not want Laze the Danish flugelhorn player thinking we are all like "that mob", heaven forbid it would put poor Laze right off his strudel.
We must stick together, putting the sh#t on Abbott and his merry band of bozo's.
I think Shorten has put 11 women on his team, speaks volumes for that misogynist Abbott.

Labor is all secret deals behind closed doors - pay-offs for past favours and promises for favours to come.

That is why a solid performer like Jenny Macklin, with demonstrated ability in tough roles (tasks side-stepped by the show ponies) and the respect of both sides of Parliament will never get the nod for Deputy Leader.

It is interesting and expected that Jenny Macklin, with her outstanding record of productivity on real, practical goals that help real people, would have supported Albanese, who was also the members' choice by a big margin.

Caucus picked the leader. Doubtless the deals done and deals expected for the future influenced members of the Caucus in that choice and the same will also decide who is deputy.

Oh for crying out loud, while I have been fiddling in the shed,

<TANYA Plibersek has been endorsed by the Labor caucus as Deputy Opposition Leader, amid an outbreak of infighting in the party's Left faction that led to Kate Lundy and Warren Snowdon being dropped from the shadow ministry.>

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/old-guard-set-to-dominate-alp-frontbench/story-fn59niix-1226739487644

That makes for gender balancing of the show ponies.

A minimum three, or even four terms for the LNP.

The main quotas we have seen here are factional quotas. The shadow ministry was again fixed by the faceless men.

Sorry about being behind.

....When Tony Baloney done the hatchet job on Turnbull,

Yes Paul, but there is one HUGE difference, that being that since that day, some four odd years ago, not only has Tony not had to sleep with one eye open, he has also been able to perform his leadership duties, without the constantly looking over his shoulder for fear of being knifed from within, a truly common practice of the modern day labor party.

Furthermore, during his term as leader, there had not been one challenge for his job but so he has been free from the relentless undermining that Rudd served up to Gillard, right up until she caved in.

In fact, the last few months of the previous labor government actually provided Julia with some much needed credibility, as the golden boy Rudd proved he was nothing more than a puppet, who's strings were pulled by the same faceless men who are seemingly still, pulling the strings.

Belly, take a bow, youre truly honorable labor supporter, let down by your once united party.

I truly feel for you.

<Labor MPs slam return to factional 'cabals', after missing out on frontbench
ABC,October 15, 2013,

Several Labor MPs overlooked for senior positions have lashed out at the factional process to elect the party's frontbench.
.....
Inside Caucus, dumped Northern Territorian Mr Snowdon complained of side deals and stitch-ups, allegedly using the word "corruption".

Outside he complained to the media about small factional groups electing the frontbench.

"You can't have small groups of people meeting as a cabal, deciding on who should be the shadow ministers which is what in effect what happened today," he said.>

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/19390517/labor-mps-slam-return-to-factional-cabals-after-missing-out-on-frontbench/

Former Speaker Anna Burke has spat her dummy, declaring that she is bitter (hmm, that is not news),

<"And yes I'm bitter and twisted at this point in time, I'll be brutally honest.
...
In an opinion piece , and published soon after the new shadow ministry was announced, Ms Burke says the line-up reflects a return to the "faceless men" in control of the Labor caucus....

Despite the new shadow ministry including 11 women, Ms Burke also says Mr Shorten has "failed to deliver progress for women in the party".>

There you go, the feminists are never happy. It always comes down to, 'Me, me me". LOL

What is it anyhow with these Labor women that they are always, 'bitter' and in 'murderous rages', and hurling Molotov cocktails whenever they don't get their own way?

Bill Shorten will need asbestos drawers and a really big fire extinguisher.

It must be Abbott's fault.

LABOR colleagues have clashed over personal promotion in a venomous fight that undercuts Bill Shorten's plea for party unity as the new leader vows to "draw a line" under the divisions of the past.

Caucus members warned of a resurgence of party chieftains yesterday as faction leaders thwarted the rise of rivals to the 30 positions on the new Labor frontbench.

Former speaker Anna Burke penned a 600-word denunciation of the party's secret deals last night after backbencher Laurie Ferguson went public to condemn the "payback" against those who split from their faction in last week's leadership ballot.

Ms Burke declared there was "no meritocracy" in the new Labor regime and women were being blocked from promotion by the faction bosses.

"The problem with women is that they think effort will be rewarded and recognised. They work like girly swots and naively believe that they will get meritorious selection. But there is no meritocracy," Ms Burke wrote. "Our new leader, Bill Shorten, may hope for no rancour in the caucus, but the current outcome of the shadow ministry reflects an immediate reversion to the 'faceless men' being firmly in control."

www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/fraction-too-much-faction-in-labor-cabal/story-fn59niix-1226739921069#sthash.QI6pbTmn.dpuf

Sue Boyce and Judith Troeth, senior female Coalition
figures (and quite a few other
political figures within the Coalition)
were also very critical of the
under representation of women in Mr Abbott's cabinet.
The Labor Party is not the only party which has disgruntled
figures within its ranks.

You'll always
have the disgruntled having their say publicly.
And by speaking out against the Party
illustrating why they weren't chosen.

I can only suggest that perhaps we need to look at the bigger
picture and see if there were other reasons why
certain people were not selected at the leadership levels.
It may have more to do with their past performances,
policy disagreements, and other factors and not be gender
or faction related at all.

Just an attempt at actually discussing the issues rather
than launching into rants against political parties, et
cetera.

Paul1405 I have taken some time to rethink my views on this and can not find away to not see Shorten as Brilliant.
I too see true fear in the usual suspects at Bad Bills elevation.
Hope however he is not taking my view as total support.

First lets clear the air, it is tainted with half truth, all the way to half wit comments about Labor.
*Note* and never forget, my years of issuing the challenge, *tell us of your views[Liberals] on what is wrong within your ranks* is ignored, Tory's lack the ability to other than slander the other side.

However the caucus, and the very side that knifed Rudd, then Gillard, sunk it filthy teeth in to us the rank and file.
We voted 60% for Albo!
And Bill best buy a Ronald MacDonald clown suit if he tells us that is democracy in my party.
The contemptible slug Conroy Bills mate, tells us this election was a bad thing! but not because it lied to us the R X F but because it should have been left to the dirty word known as caucus/Bills butcher shop.

I may be kicked out of my party, truth is under valued if it confronts the truth members thoughts and wishes are unwelcome at present.
Democratize my party Bill and remove your own support base from caucus until they put party first.
Yes a chance exists Shorten may do just that.
This is a conservative bash the ALP thread, I entered to bash them too, but you will wait for decades to see any self judgment from the usual suspects.

I am sorry but some of the claims made here are from some non existent place.
I know Shorten.
Once was proud to be his disciple.
I can tell you, while the election was is and always will be a scam committed on ALP members.
THINK! near 60/40 Albo! the right, nearly always the wrong! owners of caucus 80! people! won?
He if he cuts ties with Conroy, if he thinks like 60% of his party and forgets the male cow dung, can reform Labor.
Like a drunken fight in a country dance hall, so many dash in to kick the fella on the ground.
Here and in another thread Labors carbon tax and NBN get comments from the dark end of the gene pool, those two policy,s played very little roll in Labors fall.
Polling in a by election in NSW tells us Labor leads in a seat Liberals held.
Gaining 19% in a first term by election is a reminder Labor is not dead.
Just slumbering in the house of faction heads, still.
Hog tied and muffled but soon demanding to be heard.

....He should look good against Abbott, but then a monkey would look good debating Abbott, would he not?

Paul, you forget that Abbott claimed the scalps of three labor leaders, Rudd, Gillard and then Rudd again.

Now I am assuming you are one of those who's job has been created for you, through another persons risk, unless of cause you work/worked in the public service, in which case, your job has also been provided for you.

I on the other hand have created my own way and, of the business people I remain in contact with, all are showing a renewed confidence, the very confidence labor buried back in 07,

It is no coincidence by the way, but it is the very ingredient that's needed to reboot our economy, the very same ingredient labor left out when they rebaked our cake back in 07.

If Tony Abbott can make the slightest amount of headway, your beloved labor party will remain only in memory.

Ms Burke is a classic, 'There is no meritocracy because women are not being given jobs because they are women'.

But the even if all jobs were given to women it would still be wrong because she didn't get the one she wanted.

Interesting how the feminist mind works.

Belly>> Labor is not dead.
Just slumbering in the house of faction heads, still.
Hog tied and muffled but soon demanding to be heard.<<

When china? I thought the wakeup call was Balmain....... the lawyers and the unionists are the sole beneficiaries to the ALP's last will and testament...which is no surprise given they wrote it.

There's two interesting articles in the Business
Review Weekly.

http://www.brw.com.au/p/leadership/shadow_cabinet_diversity_clear_shorten_tYduZqua9vO1Dryme8gKYK

And

http://www.brw.com.au/p/leadership/jobs_didn_listen_boys_libs_were_1SfufkQwMq46ssC52YSxHI

Both articles - simply confirming that even in business promotions and power
are usually given to those who are part of a network.

Let me assure readers my wrath and contempt for events in my party are in the end because I love that party.
What is once was, what it achieved in its 6 years.
And what it could be, in fact will be as it fights with its own members.
Because Shorten is warts and all, the man I say he is.
But too I want to highlight my love of my party,includes balanced accountable.
Is far from the raving and ranting SOME display here us in support of a party led by its right and refusing to confront its troubles the, Liberals and their pup, maybe him too but I am thinking of the miners party the nationals.
In every state they govern in this newly elected Federal government, such as fees for weddings and Shaw,s rat bag barging elderly protester to the ground.
A mother getting her son a job in Qld, the list could be quite long.
But crossed armed breath holding rage! at my calling for self judgment is my only answer from Conservatives.
A few thousand Bellys will acheive change in my side and accountability.
It seems accountability and constant improvement are not requirements for Conservative.
That simple truth will again 0ne day see a remodeled ALP win Federal and state governments, and see a stuggleing self confident Conservative side finds it needs to look closely at why it abandoned accountability.

The-brain..in/of..the-heart:

How..we see..and..hold..the/full range..of..our experiences
*in..our-minds..and/in..our hearts..makes..an..enormous_difference

http://zenhabits.net/how-to-make-your-heart-and-your-mind-work-together/

First..you must know..that..we possess,..as/it were..two souls..and two..personalities:..an animal/soul,..earthly..and sensitive..in nature,..that/is called..the lower/and..a spiritual-soul,..known as the..upper part,..in which..dwells/man's free will.

Secondly.. that all/that..takes place..in the lower/animal part..[fancies,loves hates/fears/feelings,..autonomous reactive/undisciplined impulses..all this..is..*in us,..*but not..of us,..and is..by its nature..involuntary..and..un-deliberated.

All this..can certainly..urge,..though it..cannot compel,..the will..of..that..free..and..unforced consent..which..alone*..constitutes sin.

Faith..is so..innately..a good-thing
that..it..can/be..found..even in those
who...have not..yet learned..to believe.
http://www.secondspring.co.uk/articles/lang.htm

The..main/reason..we suffer..from this illness..of indecision,
is..that..we’ve mistaken..the purpose..of heart..and mind...The heart is..like..a compass,..like..[satellite-navigation]..it’s purpose..is to guide..the direction..our lives..should take...via rev-elation

Our heart..takes..a birds-eye..view..on our..life[from..cloud-mind].. and..says..“this..is..where you’re at..and this..is..the direction you need..to go.”..[that freewill..of mind..is then..free to follow..or ignore.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/209563

Our/mind..on the other hand..isn’t made..for making/purpose driven decisions...The nature..of the mind..is that it..conceptualizes,..prioritizes/organizes..and compares..information...inputs

It does/this..as best..it can[with..what it has]..and
says..“here are..the facts,[known/known..here-is..both sides..of the story.”..so-far.

It’s..typical..in our/society..to feel..a conflict
between..what..we want..to do..via(our heart)..and/how..
what..we feel..is practical..in(our mind).

from
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/Heart,%20Mind%20and%20Spirit%20%20Mohamed%20Salem.pdf

the soul,..extendinng/projecting..beyond..the body,..has..a higher-vision...has..the means..[way]..to realize..some great..ideas..to express...But..the heart-soul..needs..to get the body..involved-in[enacting]....that vision..and those..ideas...into works

And..it knows..the only way..that can happen..is by..
inspiring..the heart...to in-spire..[in-put..in-stil]..the mind

Problem/is,..the cloud-soul..is just..too big..for that..little..heart to..contain...So..when..the..super-soul..makes a direct-line./.connection..to the heart,..the heart..is overwhelmed...by revelation..it inspires the miracle of mind

Sure,..it*..may catch..fire[passion]
and burn][be inspired]..run-wild..for/a while...But then..it's all over..and forgotten...yet..its fruits remain

That's..where/the mind..fits in.
The mind..has to reach-up..to the cloud-soul..and catch..some of its higher vision.[revelation]....Then..it chews..on that vision..until it becomes..real enough..that/the..heart,..as well,..as brain..can relate..to it.

That's..the point..we call Da'at.
Roughly translated..as.."realization".
http://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/292391/jewish/Mind-Over-Heart.htm

After/extensive research,Armour(1994)..introduced
the concept/of..functional ‘heart brain’...His work..revealed that the heart..has a complex/intrinsic-nervous system..that is sufficiently sophisticated..to qualify as..a ‘little brain’..in its own right.

The heart’s/brain..is an intricate network..of several types of neurons,/neurotransmitters,/proteins..and support cells..similar to those found..in the brain/proper.

Its elaborate/circuitry..enables it
to act/independently of..the cranial brain..to learn,..recollect/remember,and even..feel..and sense.[and regulates//bloodflow..to other organ-ic/sic*..minds..of beast

The heart’s..nervous-system..contains..[primitive-brain]
around..40,000 neurons,..called..sensory..neurites..(Armour,1991).

Information..from..the heart..including
feeling sensations..is sent to..the brain..through several afferents.

These..afferent nerve pathways..enter the brain..at the area..of the medulla,..and cascade..up specific pathways..dependent..upon input forces..into..the higher centers..of the brain,..where..they may influence/perception,..decision-making..and other/cognitive-processes (Armour, 2004).

individuals..who have..higher trust..
in..their feelings..revealings..and works..can predict...the fruit
outcomes..of future/events..better than..individuals..with lower trust[faith].in..their feelings.

This ..emotional/oracle..effect
was found..across a variety..of prediction..domains..but extensively..applied to..consumerist/self consuming capitalist abuses

apollo-geeze..
for previous post..it rightfully belongs here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

accidents do occur
[but i accept..the workings..of the unseen-cloud mind[god]

how-ever
i see..the ending..continues from..our foxy lexies quote

<<..- simply confirming..that even in business/promotions ;)
and power..are usually given..to those..who are part of a network.>>

i also..feel the post was drawn to my old mate..belly
who has survived..the attack..upon his very heart felt love[his party]

the previous post..hopefully gives a little..back
to this..beloved great man..of pure heart..our mate belly..who is all heart.

love you bloke
hope this helps heal..yet more..your wounded..bnut unbroken heart

Comrade Belly, I don't always agree with the so called reforms that are being undertaken by your Labor Party. The Labor reforms leave a lot to be desired, but they out strip the Liberals for democracy by a mile. Here in NSW if you are a Liberal Party member and speak out on the subject of reform, what do you get? Like John Ruddick you get threatened with a 5 year ban, how democratic! factionalism and infighting is as bad in the NSW Liberal Party as it is with Labor, just that the Liberals do it more in private, whilst Labor do it in George Street at 5 o'clock on a Friday afternoon for all to see.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-03/liberal-party-member-john-ruddick-threatened-with-suspension/4997440

It should be noted that both major parties, Labor and Liberal, I don't know about The Nationals, maybe they let the cows and sheep vote, are way behind THE GREENS when it comes to internal grass roots democracy. A lot of the democracy in THE GREENS has much to do with the fact they are not beholding to sectional interests, Big Business and Big Unions but to the membership and the common people they are elected to represent.
Comrade Belly, I would like to see your political heartache stop. It could be done so easily, ditch the ALP and join THE GREENS, welcome comrade.

"STEPHEN Conroy has cemented his position as a Victorian Right kingmaker despite criticism from some senior colleagues over the bungled National Broadband Network and his role in escalating an internecine factional war.

New Labor leader Bill Shorten faces a heated battle for control of the Victorian Right, with his key backers worried he has deeply limited factional support around him in Canberra to create the necessary "Praetorian Guard" to fireproof his leadership.

Senator Conroy's decision to take a senior position in Mr Shorten's line-up ends months of speculation about the former communications minister's future and opens the way for him to continue wielding his factional influence. His decision to re-engage after backing Julia Gillard for the federal leadership in the run-up to the last election has sparked intense positioning among the pro-Shorten members of the Victorian Right to seek preselection retribution against Senator Conroy's forces.

The anti-Conroy forces are using the senator's mixed record as a minister for six years, including the flawed broadband rollout and his bungled media reforms, as "evidence" his influence should be contained."

SM, you post looks like it was lifted from a journo? Plagiarism if you don't give a by-line. Conroy would make an excellent member of the Liberal Party, could be another Abbott, but more conservative.

Paul,

It is a quote from a newspaper. What gave it away? That it was framed between quotation marks? What do you expect with respect to posts, peer reviewed papers? Plagiarism... pathetic.

Comrade Conjob would make an excellent green, with his attempted censorship of the media (cheered on by the greens), his monumental arrogance and insistence of ideology over fiscal prudence or managerial competence.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/don-randall-dodges-questions-over-expense-claims-for-trip-to-cairns-20131016-2vlx1.html?google_editors_picks=true
Now let us be honest.
I am not hiding my true views on the scam called an election in the ALP.
But ignore this link, and the tens of similar story's from within Liberal/Nats teams around the country at the peril of good governance.
Any side unwilling to take on its offenders while demanding action on the other side, embraces far from the best because they leave such in their party.
And in truth putting future election results that may harm more than a good clean out would

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/don-randall-rejected-monitoring-mp-expenses-as-huge-bureaucracy-20131016-2vmmu.html
Surely, it is unthinkable to think otherwise, our Shadow Minister will show his indignation at this slug?

Do not hold your breath!

Thanks for that Belly another conservative porker with his big fat snout in the trough. SM can you give us a running total for these Liberal parasites and their rip offs, do you known when it will stop? This crud has ripped off at least $10k from us honest tax payers. It seems Mrs Grub bought cook books etc, then Mr Grub billed the tax payer.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-16/questions-over-don-randall-expense-claims/5026388

"It is a quote from a newspaper. What gave it away? That it was framed between quotation marks?" said SM. I though it was something your Nanna told you. and you were quoting her. Did it come from a newspaper? Looks to have came from a Murdock fish wrapper to me.

Paul even I have taken to you for your greens one eyed views, as a mate not an enemy.
Walk and think with me on this one.
First you will I am sure see I came to this thread to? vent my spleen on my party!
However as you see, those who put you and me in a basket, are not here now.
How very often they tell me I am quite right, when I target my team.
But stand silent blue faced from rage and holding their breath and stamping their feet, at my shameful sin! focusing on the filth in their team.

Never forget their rage at Slipper or slanders about my side.
Remember however the blue faced silence at over 30 acts of people who by their actions rightly deserve that name given to children of unwed parents on their side.
Watch too the filth machine MURDOCK runs as it seems not to know these grubs have done wrong.
Consider all this and you will know why I have so little regard for Tory politicians.
And above all know living with grubs will in time turn you in to a grub, in this case with out change no butter fly,s will fly from a blind to injustice party only blow fly,s.

Those who are unsure who they may vote for should while making up their own minds see the reluctance to even consider the mounting list of state and federal government silly beggars who have been caught being dishonest or with their hand in the cookie jar.
I have never hesitated to say both HSU dirt bags should serve no less than 10 years in prison.
Too the those involved in NSW filths mining fraud against the states rate payers and the membership of the ALP should have every cent taken from them and serve nothing less than 25 years.
Why are the other side not interested in honesty in government?
*I feel in highlighting their absence and unwilling to confront matters of real concern in their side* in bottom end of this thread they condemn them selves as blind supporters with no morals.

Belly,

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/labor-mp-rob-mitchell-asks-afp-to-investigate-tony-abbotts-expense-claims-20131017-2vog3.html

"Labor MP Rob Mitchell has written to the Australian Federal Police to request formal investigations into the alleged misuse of parliamentary entitlements by Prime Minister Tony Abbott and Attorney-General George Brandis."

"The Victorian MP singled out the Prime Minister for what he described as a "systematic" pattern of claims, including about $1700 to attend the weddings of former colleagues Peter Slipper and Sophie Mirabella and billing taxpayers thousands of dollars to compete in a range of sporting events including the Port Macquarie Ironman.

Mr Abbott has since repaid the costs he claimed for both weddings.

"What concerns the Australian public is what appears to be a consistent and deliberate abuse of taxpayer funds for personal gain," Mr Mitchell writes."

Be interesting to see what happens.

P,

"Be interesting to see what happens."

Your prayers have been answered. The AFP has already indicated that they have no interest in investigating these claims, as there is no evidence of any crime being committed.

I notice Rob Mitchell failed to include shadow AG Mark Dufus in his report to the AFP.

Not unexpectedly the fraud paid it back!
Great way for Liberals to avoid justice seems many snouts in this trough.
The true grim nature of this mob can be seen in the pursuit of Peter Slipper.
And gee you gotta laugh! Abbott,s claim for travel to his wedding! ROTFL!
SM sneaks in thinking he holds an ace but turns out he has a straw in his hands.
Every pursuit of Labor by SM asks was he concerned about doing the right thing or just heaping mud on us for things his mob INVENTED and continue to master, still ROTFL.

Belly,

The end remains is that Labor's speaker (Slipper) is the only one having been caught doing something allegedly fraudulent.

This is not even considering Thomson, Williamson, Obeid, Macdonald and the long list of Labor MPs and senior staff now facing criminal charges.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/mps-repay-20k-in-just-weeks-20131019-2vtl4.html
Shadow Minister in his usual style heaves the mud at the ALP,with no difficulty.
He fails to even glance at the true wrongs in his team.
Wake up Australia!
Like it or not politics is not a team sport it is our very life.
If we football like scream for the referees intervention on the other side.
But smugly ignore the faults in our own.
We drive standards and out comes down.
SM resume your seat! this link is telling and a warning , standards must be set for all.

Wow! The first real test since the Mad Monk came to power in September, the Miranda by-election in NSW. We knew the O'Farrell Coalition Government was toxic with the voters but no one would believe a 27% swing would be possible, but that's what it was yesterday 27%, yes 27%, no joke 27% an unbelievable 27%. the biggest swing recorded since WWII. Even though Fatty O'Barrell and his plonker of a government is crap with voters even I can't blame this massive catastrophic debacle totally on the state mob, there has to be a federal message from the voters there as well. I take it as the first judgement on Phony Tony and it gives the fool a big fat F. I'm sure Fatty was on the blower this morning telling the Mad Monk to keep the hell out of NSW from now on.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-20/victory-in-miranda-reflects-voters-disenchantment-with-state-go/5033998

Belly, thanks for that link. The suit Phony Tony's got on his back, is it not a Pierre Cardin? Probably complements of the taxpayer just another little perk, I'm sure.