every now and then we will see our politicians bending over to apologise to the aborigines
sometimes they participate in a race to see who can apologise more sincerely and how much more they can repay the wrongs done

my view on this is simple

(a). no matter how much we can wish for, wars and conflicts between nations will continue
for ideological reasons
for religious reasons
for resources
for racial issues
look at history and you will see that to be a fact

(b). when war happens, there will be eventually a winner and a vanquished
the conqueror will win by sure numbers, technology or able leadership
the vanquished loses also because of the same reasons or perhaps a disillusioned citizens who actually welcomed the new regime

(c). the conqueror will then have the final say in all policies. No ifs and buts. That is the cruel logic of warfare and conquests.

(d). when that happens, let the victors treat the losers with human dignity after the war. we can discuss what is basic human dignity later. however, let us not say if we are truly fair, we should not go to war in the first place for that will negate the principle at (a)
the victors must remember that one day, they in turn will be conquered for whatever reasons. they will have to ask how they want to be treated if they lost the war to an invading force.

treating the aborigines as vermin is not acceptable
taking away their children is inhumane

for all these, we have to sincerely apologise to the aborigines
unqualified apology and remorse
as a nation, we must learn not to do this again

from then on, we must move on
there is no need to re-open old wounds
no need for endless apologies
that is history and lessons were learnt

there is no need to be politically correct in mandatory naming of a bridge in aboriginal dialect
no need to end a tv programme by thanking the XYZ tribe etc

there is no need to re-open old wounds
platypus1900,
sadly this one line is the crux of the whole circus. the perpetual picking of the scab is what keeps the doors open to that pathetic show that is the guilt industry.

@individual

last thing on my mind to open old wounds
just that as a nation, we do not seem to know how to leave this behind
that is the problem

i just commented on another Thread about how our politicians are just bidding themselves crazy to give freebies to the aborigines

i discussed at length with a phd (student) anthropologist on this issue
i dont even want to say i am sad about what happened
it happened
i look at the past philosophically
the important thing is recognise the wrongs done and not to repeat past ill-treatment and injustice done

that is important

i dont trust the japanese because they never apologised as a nation
the germans did

the thread is to discuss how we should move ahead
the italians did

like all australians, i have dissonance in my head when i see

a. aborigines walking around drunk after getting their allowances
b. aborigines in casinos ( i know some may be earning their keeps and gambling but honestly, how many?)
c. broken and dilapidated houses in the outback built by govt funds (yours and my taxes)
d. the stats on how many aborigines (% to their population) commit crime and are in/out of prison

i want to state here that i am sad such things are happening to them
they are a people lost and dispossessed of their land and lifestyle
they face diseases their parents never knew and lifestyle they do not need

but as i said in my opening post, such is life
there will be warfare
there will be colonization or whatever pc term you like to use

the point is where do we go from here?

i see clearly 2 groups of aborigines

a. those who will and have successfully or not successfully integrated into the mainstream
b. those who will not want to integrate into the mainstream of the conquerors

let us come up with a scheme to accommodate both groups
those who want to be in (b), let them stay in peace and quiet in govt gazetted reserves.... give them a one time allowance to help them readjusted to their way of life in the outback.
after that they are on their own...in the reserves.
issue them ID cards
they can visit places outside the reserves but not allowed to reside outside

for those in (a), and who are in the group that needs help, give them help, classes, courses, subsidised edn and houses etc for a fixed period of time (5 years..10 years).
then they have to fend for themselves like the rest of us. Not all whites are successful...not all migrants are successful. That is life and they have to learn.

platypus1900, In South Africa the whites called them "Townships". It must be fortunate for people like you that Aboriginals represent less than 3% of the population and not over 90%, then your military apparatus would be stretched enforcing your apartheid laws following your glorious victory over theses stone aged people.
You see the problems of indigenous Australians as basically problems of their own making, their failure to comply with the norms of the victors You want to draw a curtain on past history and then demand Aboriginal people sink or swim accordingly.

I (platypus1900) see clearly 2 groups of aborigines

a. those who will and have successfully or not successfully integrated into the mainstream
b. those who will not want to integrate into the mainstream of the conquerors

And what is your solution? Group b immediately get driven off into the desert to fend for themselves. However the complaint group a fair a bit better, they get some form of assistance, but your patience has its limits, after some years if they too have failed to assimilate, they to are driven off into the desert to fend for themselves as well.

And just to show your not some bigoted recast you finish with;
"Not all whites are successful...not all migrants are successful. That is life and they have to learn." Great scheme!
p/s When filling out their papers do you think many will mark box b, that's the one that leads to immediate exile to the "government reserve" or most will mark box a and hang out for 5 or 10 years

@paul

first and foremost, can we agree not to call each other names?
you hardly know me
written words, especially in a forum like this can well be misinterpreted and does not fully ocnvey our full views
much better you ask and clarify before you brand me?

now, let me respond to your points

a. actually i do not have a 100% solution. it is just that this indigenous people issue has been around for so long and i do not see it getting any nearer to a solution and so i am just thinking my ideas aloud. not exactly very wise, but i thot we can together work out perhaps a better solution

b. i dont think township is the solution.
aborigines dont live in towns right?
they are wanderers right?
their "ways and paths" and their living off the land with the wind and the water and the brother kangaroos and the possums etc etc?
townships and cities are concepts of other civilisations like the west and the chinese and indians etc

c.if they are over 90% of the population, the problem would have solved itself over time as in the case of africa (bkacks and whites) and indonesia (indonesians and dutch) and china (chinese and the mongols or the manchurians)... remember my opening remarks on technology (superior arms) and sure size of numbers?
for eg, if china wanted australia...they need not fight, they just land boats and boats of chinese here and we will be overwhelmed man.
that is on the assumption that the hypocritical americans feels there is nothing here worth interfering with.

d. the segment of aborigines who has done well are those who assimilated with the conquerors... there must be other issues but they seem to be handling them well
the other segment DO NOT wish to assimilate
they want their old ways of life
i am trying to accommodate this group
a ruthless victor will just eliminate them
i think that is not right as we do not want any future victors to eliminate us do we?

@paul

cont.....

e. "drive them into the desert"?
again, paul, please dont use such colored words
i suggested reserves be carved out for them
they indicate that they dont want our way of life
so we allow them to go back to their way of life
and we protect such reserves from interference by citizens who choose to live outside the reserves
those who choose to be (a) has one chance to go back to group (b)
NO again...we do not chase them.
but if they choose to stay in the cities and towns etc, they must compete with the rest of us.
not all new migrants or existing white citizens have it easy you know
many of us fail and end up as rubbish collectors or doing menial labour to survive

f. again paul...please do not call me a bigot
i am just trying to be a realist
full rights for the aborigines?
they want all whites and other races out of australia
we can take our roads...buildings...etc away
just go
how?
you agree to leave?
do you have a better solution?

Dear Paul1405,

Me thinks we may have a troll on our hands. He/she is spreading themselves over the forum flagging all the good push button issues and baiting them up to the max.

Reminds me of BOAZ_david. Ah there is a name that brings back fond memories.

platypus1900. I did not refer to you as a bigoted raciest, read my comment' "just to show your not some bigoted recast you finish with;
"Not all whites are successful...not all migrants are successful. That is life and they have to learn." take note of the word NOT,
Your ideas at best, are straight out of the nineteenth century, a return to benign paternalism, where all aboriginal people must be treated like children and shown the virtues of being "white".
You seem to have no concept of social justice its all sink or swim and and that's all based on your assessment of success.
"do you (Paul) have a better solution? Yes I do, its one of inclusion where Aboriginal people work hand in hand with government and other interested parties to achieve real positive outcomes for indigenous people in all areas of society, health, education, housing, employment, the list is an extensive one. Its not one where government tries to impose "their" solution to what is a deep and complex problem. I must point out that despite the adversity aboriginal people have suffered for over 200 years there have been many shining examples of indigenous success.
csteele, could be.

@paul

i am merely giving them a chance to be what they want in the reserves to be created
they DO NOT want our way of life, so why talk about assimilation and adoption?
they do not see our lifestyle as superior or better in quality to theirs

shinning example?
yes..this will be the segment who wants to assimilate
this group i can agree to helping with good schemes for a period of time this period should not be endless as we do not want a crutch mentality

Paul,

I believe what good old platypus wants is "Blessed segregation"...for those who hold onto the scraps of their culture.

"......we do not want a crutch mentality."

(Unless you happen to be an upper middle-class woman on $150.000 per annum, who fears her "lifestyle" might take a dip if she decides to have a baby :)

Dear Platypus,

<<those who want to be in (b), let them stay in peace and quiet in govt gazetted reserves....>>

What gives aboriginals such special privileges? Aren't we all subjected to the same conquering regime? Have the rest of us been ever asked whether we agree for this huge monolithic state rule over us, over a whole continent? What about all others who "will not want to integrate into the mainstream of the conquerors"?

Surely we all deserve the same. Surely everyone of any race that so wishes should be able to live in peace and quiet in an autonomous region free of the overwhelming Western/technological conquest.

Peace and quiet on a remote 'community' ? I'm sure a lot of women and kids out there would like that.

Platypus, will you try to get it through your head that you can't 'get' anybody, black or white, to do anything - nobody in Australia is under that sort of control. Aboriginal people certainly haven't been for generations.

Many, if not most, Aboriginal people in the cities don't get much, or any, assistance from any government agency. They are just getting on with business, like other people.

Actually, your assumption of 'get them to do (a) or (b)' makes you sound like one of the Aboriginal elite: I've heard people in confidence using some of that 'sheep-dog' language, as if they had the power to round up people and move them hither and thither, like sheep. No they don't, and neither do you, thank Christ.

Joe
www.firstsources.info