I watched over the tv last week of australian doctors trying to get spanking of children outlawed.

Honestly, I am tired of such doctors and psychologist seeking fame the wrong way.
Come on, go do good to society and not seek fame by such routes.

Hear me out.
I am NOT talking about child abuse by parents who themselves are not well brought up or are drunkards.
Children are to be brought up in love and in loving discipline.
If God disciplines who He loves, why shouldnt mortals follow the example.

I have 3 grown up adult children.
The first is a PhD graduate.
The second is successful vet.
The third is a teacher in Chemistry.

All of them were caned when they were young.
I discipline them when they are from 2-12 years old
After that, the canes are thrown away.
They are then old enough to reason with.

Now they are all grown up with successful careers and happily married.
I asked them once in while if they resented the discipline.
If they had emotional scars that lasts a life time.
All of them laughed and asked me not to dramatise the matter.
"of course not, pa, we knew we were naughty and we deserved to be punished. the discipline did us good"

i read months ago how a young woman was taken away from her parents because they were trying to disciple her when she was young
she was quite a testy little girl then
she was fostered out by the State from one foster parent to another
she was abused by her foster parents
she eventually did drugs and then died of an overdose

the journalist who did that article visited the girl's parents and found them to be very "regular" family
one that the young lady should have been staying with in the first place... and be subjected to discipline by her OWN parents !
not the State decided foster parents

i pray our country will not go the way of the fashionable west of not spanking children ... and eventually lose an entire generation

Platypus>>> i pray our country will not go the way of the fashionable west of not spanking children ... and eventually lose an entire generation<<

Plat I believe that the whole fist words social makeup is being engineered by Fabians. Through the UN and other government bodies the child and the parents are to be separated from traditional roles. The rights of the child will morph into voting rights by 16 and the state will become the de facto guardians to all children.

It is not about the rights of the child it is about social manipulation and control.

The school syllabus in Australia is so “politically correct “ in focusing on “social rubbish” that our primary age children came last in a global literacy test last December. Last out of all the English speaking nations.

@sonofgloin

thks for the comments

let australia be known to hold on to our own values
not the west
funny that i should say that
but the word US is fast becoming a dirty word
their foreign policies are all about US interests...period
their domestic landscape is in a mess
look at how their citizens loot each other after the cyclone
see how the japanese behave after the tsunami and earthquakes
res ipsa loquitur

i met this kiwi on a ferry at cairns recently
he was so proud nz took the lead to recognise gay marriage
i told him straight in his face..."be proud of the right things, not moral decadence"

he must have thot he got hit by a thunder bolt

cheers

Hi platypus1900,

There will always be a fine line between what some refer to as discipline and others refer to as child abuse. But that should remain a personal family decision.

The issue for me is about the decisions my wife and I take on how we prepare our children for life.

There are those who for whatever reason, have not been prepared for life by their parents and there are those who for whatever reason, see their role as adjudicators on how other people bring up their children.

Throughout our lives we have stood by our principles and sought professional advice as needed however, we agree that today we wouldn’t go near these so called professions because in our humble view, most of them are not fit for purpose.

Add to this the raft of self righteous, nit picking, nanny state, arrogant, pontificating, PC driven, dysfunctional public busy bodies and you have a recipe for social discord.

Nothing makes us angrier than being confronted by someone who demands the authority to “mind our personal business”.

A pox on all of them.

Come the revolution bro’ we will burn them at the stake.

@spindoc

thks for the very balanced view
i like the post (except the burning them on the stake part..LOL)

our guidelines

a. never to cane the child immediately for any infractions
tell them they would be punished (and make sure you do)
let there be a span of say 10-15min before punishment
that way, you do not abuse the kid as you normally would in fits of anger

b. stick on to one form of punishment, either caning or spanking
some parents have preferences to spanking on the buttocks
some caning on the bottom
our (my) preference is 1-3 strokes of the cane on the palm of the non-writing hand
[my wife waves the cane like a witch waving her broom and never punish... waste of time and like a circus]
the stroke is always measured...enough pain but not to injure
my children (when they were young), were told NEVER to move their palms when caned as that may lead to unintended injury

c. my children always know why they are caned
they always have a chance to explain themselves and ask for mitigated discipline
once or twice, they are let off as they gave good reasons

d. after the punishment, i ALWAYS give them a hug and i will always ask them if papa loves them
they will say yes (not much choice there) ..and that they were punished because they were naughty

as i said in my opening post, all of them grew up into fine well-adjusted adults

we all know child abuse when we see one

dirty and unkempt
cane marks all over
bruises all over

NO...we do not condone child abuse.

I think any reasonable person would agree with the threads author as I do.
But maybe, like much in life we the reasonable are paying the price, in this case our freedom.
Because of the unreasonable,those who fog not punish but torture children.
That line exists we read about the latter all too often.

@belly

may we continue to voice our views to the leaders of this country
lest we end up with the vocal minority the last say and we all suffer

look at how the Green party became the king maker because the majority does not speak up and we end with a hung parliament

we should have one seat in the parliament reserved permanently for the Green Party

the woman (wondering why even the successor who is groomed to take over is also a woman?) who can then champion the frogs..the toads..the gays..the whales..the boats

we promise to listen

"I discipline them when they are from 2-12 years old
After that, the canes are thrown away.
They are then old enough to reason with."

More likely because then they are old enough to give you a smack back. Like I did to my old man when I was 12.

@mikk

you did that to your father?
and you are so proud of the fact?

:(

I watched over the tv last week of australian doctors trying to get spanking of children outlawed.
platypus 1900,
They're obviously just standard morons instead of real Doctors.
Discipline is a Law of nature & no academic moron can change that. Oh yes, they try but let one of them try it whilst I'm present.

I think it is a bit late to avoid losing a generation. You only have to look at the behavior of young adults on the grog on a Saturday night to see that lack of parental discipline when young has lead to a lack of self discipline in adulthood.

How discipline is applied will depend on the child. My eldest would cry her eyes out if I really roused on her. Discipline on the rare occasion it was needed had to be applied carefully & gently.

With my son, you could have thrashed him to near death, with achieving anything. Restricting him to the house yard, or more extreme to his room until dark was usually enough. Missing cricket or football training was rather extreme punishment for him, & not often needed.

My youngest definitely responded to a spanking, & nothing else, until she was involved in gymnastics. Once she required someone to drive 25 Km each way, & spend a couple of hours waiting around, good behavior, & getting her chores done in return, worked as it had with her brother.

With some kids, a cane or a strap is the only way. I received the razor strop a few times, & am sure it did more good than harm.

"you did that to your father?
and you are so proud of the fact?"

No more proud than you seem to be of beating your kids.

Violence is nothing to be proud of. Violence against children doubly so.

platypus 1900,

"you did that to your father?
and you are so proud of the fact?"

What a strange questions from the poster who trumpets the assaults he carried out on his own children.

Not just a smack, mind you, but repeated caning - and he' proud of it!

Does it ever occur to you that your children are successful "in spite" of the cruelties inflicted upon them?

Does it ever occur to you that people like you resort to physical violence because of shortcomings in your ability to discipline your children in other ways?

How is it, that other children (including my own) manage to grow up into successful well-balanced adults without being serially beaten by their parents?

@poirot

shame on you if you hit your father!
obviously he had a neighbour who was a busy body
well.. the end result is you

1. i am proud of my children and they love and respect me
they are grown ups now and that is what they say
you got a problem with that?
you are precisely the kind i started this thread for

2. repeated caning?
no...only when required
always done in love

3. they would have been successful nevertheless
moot point by dr spocks like yourself

tell the forum how old you are
how many successful children you raised

there is this woman who told me she spanked her 3 kids in loving discipline like we do
and her 3 kids were the ONLY ONES in their cohort who went thru the U and are all successful professional now

i know
i know
you will say her 3 kids would have been successful anyway

raise your kids (if you are married with kids or are you an armchair debater) the way you want and let me raise mine
stop being a nosy neighbour

platypus 1900,

I never hit my father.

"2. repeated caning?
no...only when required
always done in love"

There's something grotesque about a megalomania that sees thrashing dependents (between the ages of 2 and 12) with a cane as something done out of love.

Something done out of a deep-seated feeling of inferiority and lack of control, more likely.

"stop being a nosy neighbour"

Well that's a laugh....you're the one who stumped up here with a megaphone, hollering proudly about your caning habits.

Hi Poirot,

Perhaps you'll make an exception in my case. I would have been caned at the last three schools I went to, including on my last day at Wagga High School, by Mr Smythe. Earlier that year by Fang, the deputy head, Mr Coleman. And looking back, I have to admit that I deserved to be knocked around the room, along with other kids, we did some really stupid and ghastly things, so fair enough.

And obviously, it didn't do me any harm :)

Go for it, Poirot :)

Cheers :)

Joe

"And obviously, it didn't do me any harm :)"

Cough!

That may explain your sadistic streak.

Yeah, I'm supposing that caning 2 year-olds is not acceptable (for instance)...

To me, anyway.

@poirot

have a good day
and ok..no caning for you and your family

2-year-olds ? Caning 2-year-olds ? Hmmmmm, let me think about it.

Probably not. 1-year-olds ? Hmmmm, that's a hard one. One month ? Now, it gets difficult.

No, seriously, Poirot, it's all in the past and that's where it belongs.

Joe

@joe

not 2 yo
wat about 3 yo
wat about 4 yo
wat about 6 yo

let me think about it....

"catch the foxes...the little foxes in the vineyard"

have a good day

Hi Platypus,

As long as kids have strong and persistent messages about what is right and wrong, good and bad, they won't need to be belted. Or maybe they will. I think the first time I got the cuts was at Penrith when we turned the water off down the back of the school - I didn't realise what we had done, but apparently it caused a lot of trouble. 1953. Fair enough. After all, most of us in those days out that way were pretty feral, barely civilized.

But it was good fun.

Joe

@joe

thks for your post
i like your tone
we can be different
precisely why i stated in the title of the thread

trust me, i am not a violent man
but i believe in good old discipline

i dont belt my children, God forbid
i discipline them
i rather be the one discipling them than the State or the criminal courts

and there are just that few categories that will call for the cane

a. telling lies
b. disrespectful to elders
c. cheating
d. engaging in activity that is life threatening
e. not doing homework or putting their best into studies

no caning for water hosing....hhh

anyway, thks again for that nice last post

and on that note, i suggest we close this thread.

cheers

sonofgloin
You are right about Fabianism, it's on the rise.
My old man used to flog me with his old army belt.
I shot him...six times through my bedroom door while he was trying to cut it down with an axe. He was a Changi POW before the days of PTS
He lived and I loved him just the same.
PS I deserved most of the floggings I got anyway.

Platypus1900, you are a disgrace!
No wonder you are running away from your own thread so soon.
Who canes 2 year olds?

And yes, luckily our laws CAN tell you how you can't discipline your children!

Exactly what was your 'cane' made of anyway?
Was it wood?
Bamboo?
Metal?

Oh yes, very 'loving' discipline...

@suseonline

"made of metal with barbed spikes
laced with poison
the children are tied down

and yes, i belt them with uncontrolled anger
most of the time when i am half drunked

and all the time with their mother pleading for mercy"

run away?
no, i will stay as long as you would like to hear some more 'jack and the bean stalk' to help you sleep

platypus,

"and there are just that few categories that will call for the cane

a. telling lies
b. disrespectful to elders
c. cheating
d. engaging in activity that is life threatening
e. not doing homework or putting their best into studies"

Caning small children for not doing homework or putting their best into studies?

How does it get to a stage when one is required to cane his child in these circumstances?

You don't seem to understand that other parents manage these misdemeanours without resorting to physically beating their children.

The fact here is obviously that you were/are deficient in an ability to instill discipline without physically assaulting the people in your care.

You seem to believe that if a child isn't beaten, then he or she is incapable of toeing the line.

As I remarked before, we have two children, neither of whom were serially beaten or caned. One is a successful well-balanced adult and the other is a well-behaved respectful eleven year-old.

The joys of corporal punishment threads.

General observations
- There almost certainly are people who are better equipped than myself to deal with reasoning with small children in a way that produced a good outcome without having the option of a smack as a backup.
- Threads on strategies for child discipline not involving hitting don't seem to elicit much interest from either side.
- There is some evidence that corporal punishment applied regularly or at too old an age has a statistically significant (but not large) correlation to violent behaviour in adults.
- I've not seen credible evidence that infrequent light smacks for young children produce any identifiable harm.
- Some of the ardent pro-smackers are scary in their passion for smacking. It seems to go well beyond a reasoned strategy for dealing with some of the practical issues involved in raising children.
- Most of the parents I know who claim to have never used corporal punishment on their children also appear to have a very different view to others who deal with their children regarding the character of those children. That's a personal observation and may well be impacted by the behaviour of the children drawing attention to the parents discipling views.

Summary
I do think there is some place for mild corporal punishment as sometimes the combination of parental ability and a particular child's temperament limit the effectiveness of discipline without a fall back which the child can't work around or ignore.

I would prefer to see a far greater passion from some for discussion of constructive strategies for child discipline than I've noticed.

R0bert

RObert,

"I would prefer to see a far greater passion from some for discussion of constructive strategies for child discipline than I've noticed."

Sorry mate, but just gobsmacked by someone proudly proclaiming that he caned his kids from 2 - 12 years-old as a matter of course.

Was specifically addressing the "caning" issue.

(Big difference between light smacks for very small children and installing a regime of caning/beatings based on fear and physical reprisal - especially for misdemeanours and/or character formation)

@poirot

We are making progress
Now you backpaddle and say "A light spanking is fine"
wow.
Did you lightly spanked your 2 children?
What would you say if Mrs Smith called the police and reported you for child abuse?

And you must think I belted my children with uncontrolled violence?

I must congratulate you for your parenting skills.

You see… I do not poke my nose into your house on how you should lightly spank your kids.
Have a little respect for the way I discipline mine.

I have the feeling that we Australians love to mind other people’s biz, worse when we advocate that the State is in a better position to bring up our children, especially for backward parents like myself.

2 years ago I was on a short hols to Brisbane.
At one of the touristy shop, an item for sale was “Here is a paper bag for you to put your bullsxxt in”
I thot that was funny.
But not to a young 25-28 year old mother.
She berated the owner for setting bad examples to children (imnpressionable children she said)
The owner of the shop stood his ground. Good on him.
On the way out, I saw the same self righteous lady smoking in front of her 3 young children.
I told her smoking is bad and she should know better than to do so in front of young children.
I told her she was a hypocrite for berating the shop owner over the sale of a paper trash bag.

Dear platypus1900,

Doctors are trying to get spanking outlawed because they see the results of it coming through their doors on a depressingly regular basis.

I once witnessed a young child being spanked by her father for running off in a car park. While what she did would have placed her at risk the actions of her father were appalling. He grabbed her by the arm and struck her bottom with real force and with real anger. Her body was repeatedly lifted off the ground with each blow twisting her arm severely. This is what the medical profession see, severe bruising to the upper arm and often torn ligaments even dislocations.

When I told him to stop he told me to butt out. He was then informed that any more and he was getting reported. Aside from glaring at each other these were the last words spoken and he left.

While this was done in the open I generally regard disciplining behaviour that a person isn't prepared to do in public as something they are ashamed of. This might not be the case with you but be that as it may if I saw you caning a 2 year old in front of me you would not be getting told to stop because I would be too busy putting my boot up your backside. That is how much respect I have for your kind of disciplining. Zero.

But don't worry, I would be doing it with love and with the sole (pun unintended but taken) intention of modifying your behaviour. Remember “If God disciplines who He loves, why shouldn't mortals follow the example.”

While they are your children they are also members of my community and deserving of my protection and that of my society where possible.

And only because it seems important to you I will report my children were never spanked. One is now doing a Psychology degree and the other completing her final year of high school. I am very proud of way they are prepared to stand up for those being bullied or unjustly treated.

Platypus 1900,

About the poking in of noses - you are the one who came here trumpeting this:

"Children are to be brought up in love and in loving discipline.
If God disciplines who He loves, why shouldnt mortals follow the example.......

.......All of them were caned when they were young.
I discipline them when they are from 2-12 years old
After that, the canes are thrown away.
They are then old enough to reason with."

Why did you bother to advertise your canings if you're not prepared for other posters to critique your regime?

If you'd been beating "anyone" at all in your household, in the name of discipline, would you accuse someone of being nosy if they were concerned for their welfare?

It's amazing how many Dickensian types there are on this forum.

Do any of your children have their own children? I'm supposing they wouldn't even consider dishing out to their kids the type of treatment you metered out to them.

Seems feeble and cowardly to inflict physical beatings on those weaker, subservient and dependent upon you for wisdom and guidance.

For all
From a police point of view (in all states) the use of anything other than an open hand is classifiable as a weapon and the offense is assault.
It cannot be a backhander either only an open hand.
End of story
I would love to introduce platypus1900 to the "CANE" and watch him buck.

Poirot, I wasn't thinking of you with that comment. More by way of a general observation on the trends I've seen on OLO on these discussions.

platypus1900 in your second post on this thread you made some comments in regard to same sex marriage which tend to imply a willingness for the state to stick it's nose into peoples lives. Off topic but the options for those who don't believe in the state sticking it's nose in are for the state to get out of the relationship registering business or to stop discriminating on the basis of the nature of the relationship. Your post did not seem to suggest support for either option.

In my view the state has a far greater right/obligation to intervene in setting limits on what is done to children in the name of discipline than it does to differentiate between the different kinds of relationships between consenting adults. I don't happen to think the state generally does a good job of intervention but thats a different issue.

R0bert

@rob
let's discuss same sex marriage in another thread
i will have to add that my stand will be a christian view
not meaningful to discuss moral in without reference to God
cheers

@chris
read my posts in the right context
at no time i use the cane like the rotan for the hardened criminals
police yourself

@poirot

beating
belting
sigh... you really like to use such colorful words don't you?

your children?
well done
see...i dont interfere with the way you bring up your children
perhaps with a little spanking, your children may thank you cos they may just well be scientists and phd holders...and very well balanced as well (see...your assumption is my children are emotionally scarred for life?)

@csteelee

i assure you my children are not injured
they will sure feel the pain
that was intended
injured and brought into clinics?
you are dramatising

perhaps you all don't know how to discipline with an even hand

psychologist?
i got a psychologist phd fren...
both her children got no spanking (or caning)
the son is in and out of prison
the daughter ran away from home and doing drugs
i reckon she tried reasoning with them while they were 2-12 years old
she looked at my children and their success stories and told me i brought my children up well (in your neighbourhood, i would have been reported)

you forgot about the poor lady who was taken away from her parents and brought up by the State...the one who died of overdose eventually
the reporter who did that story found her parents to be 'regular' parents who had problems dealing with a very very wayward kid.
No, they were not allowed to discipline her because busybodies reported them.

for every eg you quote, i will give you another good one to the contrary.

many of you remind me of the tobacco addict young lady who berated the shop owner (oops...i should not judge the young lady...cos i will be infringing on her rights....BUT she can tell the shop owner off...logic?)

platypus1900
You're either a wacko or a nutcase mate, maybe both.
This thread needs to be put to bed right now. What an idiot.

platypus1900

the left hate the fact that their failed dogmas are shown up by commonsense (usually taken from the bible). Congratulations on the results of you having the courage of your convictions. I have one who has been accepted in med school, one with first class honours from anu and another very successful son. This all from a father who struggled to pass high school. Loving discipline including smacking has set them up for life. God is much wiser than the fools who deny Him and His ways.

Platypus 1900,

I wonder how many PhD holders et al weren't whopped with a cane when they were very young?

I recognise a petty fiefdom when I see one.

I'm afraid your story says much more about you than it does about your children.

Some people grab any chance they can for a will to power amidst their ineffectual experience of the world - parenthood offers them an opportunity to throw their weight around under whichever guise they choose.

Discipline....it's a shame you weren't better equipped to "discipline" without resorting to utilising a weapon with which to inflict pain.

@poirot

(1)
i came back from my sax lesson last night
my teacher is 75 yo originally from holland
spent his entire adult life in victoria and nsw as a teacher in public schools and in the ministry
i asked him about this topic

he said he was spanked when he was young
i asked if it was light or hard spanking
he said often hard
i then ask if light caning is worse than hand spanking
he said no difference if the child is not injured
i then asked him...as long as it hurts?
he then smiled... if it does not hurt, what is the point?

i then asked if he spanked his children
he looked at me in bewilderment... 'of course'

i then asked him what he thinks of people like you
he smiled and said "leave them to their views"
i then said " i told them to let me discipline my children the way i deem fit but they call me all sorts of names"

we then carried on with better things in life like playing the sax

(2)
i told my vet daughter about our discussion
she then related an incident in her hospital
a white lady came in with her 3 year old son
who literally tore the place apart
what the white lady did will be what you will be doing
" now Tom, behave yourself"
"Tom, that is not the way to behave in the public"
"Now Tom, I am trying to reason with you without getting upset."

when they left, another vet from Manchester (UK) shook her head and said
"that little brat needs a tough spanking on the spot"

You know we can continue ad-infinitum

Can we leave this as it is or are you going to accuse me of running away?

@runner

amen.
i didnt know i was dealing with the left
sounds like communist socialism?
i have been called names...threatened with police and they dont even know me
all i asked for is to leave me alone to bring up my family
maybe they should come visit me and see we have a very loving, functional family like yours...as we do punish our children when they go off track

young children, from 2 years old (give or take a year) KNOWS what is happening and they are learning
they are learning what is right and what is wrong
they are far too young to understand many issues on morals and social norms
and often, they are too young to reason with

so they test boundaries, that is how they learn
as responsible parents, it is our duty to pass down what we hold to be the right values (each will have to decide what is good for us, you and i chose the bible as our standard, buddhists will chose the sutras, unbelievers like a few members here will teach what they culled from their unbelieving parents or peers)

problem is when parents do not send clear right and wrong signals when their children test the boundary line.
they try to reason... but when the kids do not respond positively, they give up and let them grow up 'naturally'
no spanking (hard or otherwise)
the poor kids will keep pushing the boundaries
some manage to find ther reference points from peers
some from teachers
some from books
and you get an entire generation of kids grappling with moral issues and on what is right or wrong social behaviour

we want our children to learn from us
NOT from their peers (many are not even brought up well...many of them have parents who need to be brought up well in the first place)

no wonder graffiti and vandalism and bad behavior is so rampant in our country

Platypus,

I agree that providing stable boundaries is the best way to instill discipline.

Children thrive with definitive boundaries.

I still maintain that children can toe the line without being hit with a cane....ours have.

Neither of my children have run around and torn up a place - neither have they been beaten with a cane (makes you wonder, eh?)

I find it amazing that you believe if you hadn't whacked your children with a cane, they would have been criminals or vandals.....doesn't say much for the rest of your repertoire.

@
poirot

NO NO
I do not think they will 100% be criminals
please dont put words in my mouth

discipling them involved a whole gamut of issues

I am glad your children turn out well
I rejoice with you.

it is all about percentages
how many parents are like you...blessed with obedient children who turns out well to reasoning from 2-12...14...16?

please dont use colorful words like 'whacked with a cane'
or 'belted' like other members would like to think i am guilty of

anyway, enough said?

can we move on?

i would like to end our discussion on a nice note?

Dear platypus1900,

Don't you dare try deflect the issue by bandying around terms like communism and socialism. What this is really about is you wanting to get away with Old Testament values and practices (He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.) in a modern world. We are saying it is not on.

Are you not a bully sir? You certainly are exhibiting a bully's behaviour, not only toward your children but the way you have conducted yourself here.

Look at the title of your thread; “Let no man tell me how I should discipline my children”. It rings of the typical playground bully saying I'm going to do what I want, whenever I want, and don't you dare criticise me for it.

And when you do get pulled up and challenged you go to water basically claiming the other children have called you names, threatened to tell the teacher on you, and now you want to go home. A typical bully's response.

Just for the record I'm struggling to find anyone who threatened to dob you into the police. I did promise you a boot up the backside which I would probably round out with a couple of clips under the ears for good measure if I found you caning a two year old. But you should completely understand this reaction because attempting to resolve issues with violence is something you are obviously more than comfortable with.

So if you want to sook up and waddle off that is up to you but don't try and claim any martyrdom, that luxury isn't afforded to those who have their heart set on caning two year olds.

platypus1900

reallly the police should be called to the permissive parents in abundance who are daft enough to ask why their kids can't say no to drugs. The dogmas of the left have created the breakdown of society and now have enough nerve to demonise those who act responsibly.

The essence of descipline is finding effective
alternatives to punishment. Discipline, like
surgery requires precision - no random cuts,
no rambling comments. Above all, a parent
demonstrates self-discipline and good manners -
no tantrums, no insults, no blistering language.

A parent never abdicates their moral authority.
Their discipline is never bizarre and their
corrections never sadistic. Caning is sadistic,
Hitting a 2 year old? - awful!

In disciplining a child a parent must not be motivated
by personal pique (I'm going to see to it personally,
even if it's the last thing I do, that you get what
you deserve." Punishment breeds brutality.
Discipline is not a matter of
fitting punishment to the crime and balancing the books.
It is the parent's generosity, not their accuracy, that
counts. The parent's authority comes from competent
exercise of persuasion. Their best weapons are a
cultured distaste for violence and a civilised disbelief
in punishment.

In the last analysis, who's a true disciplinarian?
A parent who can move children from terror to trust.

Misbehaviour and punishment are not opposites that cancel
each other. On the contrary, they breed and re-inforce
each other. Punishment does not deter misconduct.
As children get older they merely become more cautious
and more skilful in escaping detection. When a child is
punished they don't resolve to be more honest and
responsible. They resolve to be more careful.

Punishment is pointless. It fails to achieve its goal.
No child says to themself, while being punished,
"I'm going to improve. I'm going to be a better person -
more responsible, generous, and loving."
Children know that punishment is rarely administered for
their benefit, that it serves the needs of the punishing
adult. The fact is that those who rely on retribution
or physical force teach violence.

Some parents believe that children can be taught responsibility
by punishment. Ethical concepts such as responsiblity, respect,
loyalty, honesty, charity, mercy can't be taught directly.
They can only be learned in concrete life situations from
people one respects. One grows into virtue. One can't be
forced by punishment.

@csteele

thks for your comments

in life we choose who we talk to
who we discuss matter with

i choose not to discuss issues with you
this is the last response you get from me...ie you have been binned

others who disagree with me but are not vitriolic, i will continue to engage them

@Lexi
i hear your views
but you will allow me to disagree on how we should bring up our children?
it is not my intention to coerce you to 'discipline' your children like i do

i talked to my sax technician this afternoon
i talked to the mechanic who repaired my farm equipment this morning
i spoke to the mechanic when i collected my family car just an hour back
funny...they all spanked their children and they themselves were spanked (they all laughed and said they deserved those spanking)
i asked them if it is ok if i cane them
they all replied it is something they will not tell me, the parents (loving parents who are not drug abusers, drunkards or badly brought up adults or should i said oversized children) are the best to mete out discipline they see fit

looks like i am not in the minority?

you know...in australia, the minority pushes their agenda very strongly
the majority always stays silent

i will try my best to change this mindset
not to let the minority rule the day

have a good weekend

thks

Sometimes I wonder why I continue to inhabit this forum.....it's people like Lexi and csteele who keep me coming back.

Hitting a 2 year old? - awful!
Lexi,
Attempts to make discipline sound more like punishment is what has caused the disregard & even lack of respect we experience lately.
Instead of using the word 'hitting' & thereby implying excessive force you are already derailing the argument of discipline. Why not use the more appropriate word 'slapping" ?
A two year old comprehends the action of a slap & will behave. Whereas a two year old who has merely been told to behave will push the envelope. This is one of the most basic natural reactions. A two year old does understand, an academic child expert does not. Therein lies the difference.

individual,

Platypus didn't employ the word hitting or slapping in regard to his two year-old(s). He proudly told us he "caned" his young-uns - incuding those as young as two.

That's what we're on about.

A slap is a hit.

A caning is a whop or a whack.

What's with the semantics?

@poirot
you are free to inhabit this space with those you can discuss matters with
i respect that

you really want to portray me to be so unrestrained and uncaring?
you really think i do not know how to use a light stroke on the young child?

i dont want to go into this argument on what is a vicious smack and what is a medium spank and what is a light stroke of the cane

i cannot remember who is it who says the use of can is a reportable offence... a open spanking is ok ... backslap is not ok...
wow

have you seen a grown man bleed from an open slap?
have you seen a woman tickled to death with a cane?

poirot, i already remarked earlier, enough said
let the matter rest unless you have something more to add other than i am a vicious father

learn to be gracious in disagreement...like Lexi

@individual
thks for the very clear statements
you are better with words than me
must learn from you

Dear platypus1900,

You appear to be under the misapprehension that we have been engaged in a conversation. Can I disavow you of that notion. I have been set on tearing strips of a person who canes two year old children. Nothing you could say to me would justify your actions so anything you have offered as a reply to my posts is completely and utterly irrelevant.

I have asked my daughter who is doing a childcare placement at the moment what she would do if a two year old in her care told her her father was caning her. She said she would report it immediately.

Why don't you go ask some people who aren't treating you as a customer what they think. Don't make it personal and ask them specifically “Is it okay to cane two year old children?” You in the majority? What rot!

You sir deserve every rebuke, so do your actions. Your children are part of my society and entitled to protection from the likes of yourself. You make me seethe.

You demand “Let no man tell me how I should discipline my children”, well mate this man is telling you just that and so are woman here such as Poirot and Lexi. If you don't like it, get out of the sandpit.

Oh and just as an aside in the other thread of yours you claimed “i find the tv show entitled "A Better Man" to be offensive.”

This was the story about Van Tuong Nguyen who was executed as a drug mule in Singapore in 2005. It appears he was physically disciplined by his father.

“His mother, Kim, is Vietnamese and migrated to Australia shortly after the boys' birth. She married a Vietnamese Australian in 1987, who beat them often, according to Nguyen. His education was at St Ignatious School Richmond, St Joseph's Primary School in Springvale and Mount Waverley Secondary College.”
Wikipedia

So much for the claim you seem so keen to make, that those who are not physically disciplined end up 'in and out of prison' of 'doing drugs' while those who are beaten keep to the straight and narrow. Perhaps you believe he should have been beaten more soundly.

On the other hand you could accept that touting individual cases is no way to prove an argument.

On the other hand you could accept that touting individual cases is no way to prove an argument.
csteele,
you mean like having to resort to an extreme example from a faraway country ? Why not cite an australian example of a kid from a well-off family who has never been disciplined yet getting on the wrong side ? Why not cite millionaire show people who take drugs & then luckily for the rest of us end up on the permanent scarp heap.
Are you saying that the Bali 9 had very harsh upbringing ? The point of discipline is to DISCIPLINE unruly kids with some physical reminder of their wrong doing i.e. a little lingering physical discomfort, be they 2 or 14 years old. A slap or a caning has never proven to be anything but character building, just ask any well adjusted adult. To find a well adjusted adult you need to look at non-academic & bureaucratic institutions.
I can guarantee you that a slap is much easier to remember than a few meaningless harsh words. As I said earlier, just ask any well-adjusted man or woman.

platypus1900, a couple of different issues in this thread. Firstly you demand the right to discipline as you see fit and continue to claim that others should not poke their noses in. Agreed to a point unless the others can demonstrate a credible harm from your actions.

Personally I have some pretty serious concerns about the use of a cane. Very hard to judge force other than when you start to do visible damage. Beyond that I've not seen real evidence that physical punishment is tied to any actual harm when done within sane limits. At best a ban on smacking makes it easier to prosecute the abusers by creating an easy definition to judge on. I suspect that like a lot of laws they won't actually stop the real abusers, just make it easier to remove kids when they are identified.

The other issue is you making unfounded assertions about the choices others make. There have been a number of them
"no wonder graffiti and vandalism and bad behavior is so rampant in our country"

The onus is on you to back it up with credible evidence(not isolated examples) that those who have not been smacked are involed inmore anti-social behaviour than those who have. Without that you are poking your nose into other peoples choices mostly based on your own prejudices and views rather than with good cause.

In regard to the earlier point on the gay marriage, it wasn't an invitationfor a debate on christian morals. The point was about your apparent willingness for the state to poke its nose into other peoples business when it suits your own world views.

R0bert

individual,

"...... a caning has never proven to be anything but character building....."

(Except when it's found to be physical abuse)

What a load of poppycock.

Picking up a weapon to inflict pain and fear on anyone is "character diminishing" (for the caner and the person being caned), especially when it's carried out on those who wield unchallenged power over others.

When it's inflicted on "infants", even more so.

I'll ask again. How is it that children who aren't caned or beaten grow into responsible adults? Did they just get lucky that their parents were more competent and didn't have to resort to using a weapon to instil discipline?

RObert one does not have to be an Einstein to be able to see an increase in antisocial behavior has followed the introduction of Dr. Spock's ideas on parenting, & grown apace since the bleeding heart brigade managed to extend this lack of discipline into schools. Just open your eyes mate, & you'll see the evidence everywhere.

Csteele it is equally valid to state that rather than an argument against corporal punishment, the Van Tuong Nguyen case is an example of immigration lowering the moral standard of the Australian population. Where oh where would a lefty be without spin?

How is it that children who aren't caned or beaten grow into responsible adults?
Poirot,
do you have any proof of that ? Of course there are people who are plain & simply nice just as there are people who are plain & simply a pain in the rear. It's the latter who need the cane.

individual,

I have as much proof for my statement as you have for yours.

Our kids aren't/weren't hit or threatened with a cane, and they are fine - as is the case with the children of friends and family.

You say:

".... just as there are people who are plain & simply a pain in the rear. It's the latter who need the cane."

And you'd apply that theory to two, three, four year-olds?

My theory is that it's those who are found wanting in the disciplinary stakes or who are enamoured by the idea of absolute authority who reach for the cane or the strap.

@robert

yes, it is a generalization on my part when i quoted the rampant vandalism and graffiti.
that is my belief and i really do not know if any academic paper had been done
somethings, i reckon are so obvious they need no formal research?
maybe some papers had already been done... we have plenty of psychologists in this country

funny how the opponents to punishment didnt respond to the case i quoted ...the lady who who taken away from her parents and was fostered out (thanks to good intention of parents who believes all young children can be reasoned with at age 2-12) and who finally died of over dose.
maybe the reasoning of "one case is one too many" should be applied here, where the interference of the State failed tragically

i also suspect parents like me are made to pay the price for parents who really abuse their children (one violent smack of a palm that sends the 6yo 7yo..12yo.. to the ground... see...no cane)

on gay marriage
i already said, it is a 5000 page discussion
we can discuss this in another thread

my fear is we will go down the slippery path of good intention
in the case of the shire threatening to remove the entire park facility (toilet and bbq pits) due to endless vandalism
are we going to settle to the lowest denominator ?
i also wonder who are these young children doing the vandalism...or who are these badly brought up young adults who cannot be reasoned with?

thank you for your comments and your disagreements
they are brought up in the most civil and cordial manner
that is the kind of discussion i appreciate
no mud slinging in the pit

have a blessed weekend

Hi platypus,

I wish you a good weekend too.

I'm curious about your penchant to note the civil and cordial responses.

"thank you for your comments and your disagreements
they are brought up in the most civil and cordial manner"

That's what I'm getting at. You appear to believe that resorting to the cane is a way of inducing civil and cordial behaviour.

But caning young human beings is not civil and cordial in itself.

Go figure......

@poirot

seriously, you cannot tell the difference between the 2?
one is about how grown up discuss
one is about a young child who needs to be guided and moulded

maybe you dont like the word 'moulded'...ok...use 'lead' or 'trained' instead

then again, maybe 'lead' invokes thoughts of being lead by a leash
and 'trained' sounds horribly animal-animal like (as in circus or sheep dog)

you see...it is endless

i suggested we have flogged this horse to death (oops i am savage...even my imageries are violent..hhh)

i will let you have the final say on this issue ok?
let us discuss another topic.

have a blessed weekend... i need to cook for my wife and grown up children and their spouses (all were punished in one way or other when they were young)...they are all coming over for dinner...no coercion..no threats...no caning...hhh again

Platypus1900, you still haven't told us all what your wonderful 'cane' was made of, and whether your adult children use a cane on their own kids?
If not, why not?

Hasbeen I'm generally pretty cautious about assigning causation to a change when all that is clear is perceived correlation. I've seen that misused far to often to push agenda's.

A few points to ponder
- has the rate of anti-social behaviour actually risen or is it just more obvious because the outlets are different.
- What else has changed? One of the theories I tend to give more weight to is that genuine outlets for adventure have been reduced for kids leading to more artificial risk taking. That's driven changed attitudes to liability and more accessible but not necessarily satisfying entertainment. No evidence to back this but I have the impression that it's less likely that kids can get out and feel that they are having an real adventure now than when I was younger.
- Is the anti-social behaviour that bothers you spread evenly across society or concentrated more so in groups that have other issues? Are the groups most likely to have been impacted by changing views on parenting (especially reductions in corporal punishment) the ones where the anti-social behaviour that you notice is increasing.

platypus1900 sometimes I loose the plot a bit on that but I'd prefer to keep it civil and debate the issues rather than distort what I think others arguments are.

R0bert

I think you are right there RObert.

When I was young, we were left to roam the bush land across the road from our house, and we were often roaming many kilometres and away all day.
We built cubbies in the bush and fought 'wars' with the other neighbourhood kids.

I can't help but think we protect our kids too much these days, and that sitting behind computers all day is somehow not as satisfying for them.

But I would suggest that there are still many adults who abuse their kids today, just as much as they did in 'the good ol' days'.

I truly believe the current laws against physically abusing children (as with caning) are necessary.

@suseonline

ah...same issue again
i am against abusing children you know
and our views on how to discipline our children obviously differ

we then need to distinguish those who discipline and those who abuse

i guess you have seen parents abusing their children
if you were at my house 25-30 years ago, i dont think the atmosphere is one of abuse or a parent losing control of himself

but then again, who knows
you would have spanked me as well

there was this woman at the tourist shop i talked about
telling others how to raise up children
and she smokes in front of her young children

and there was this woman hurling abuses at my quadbike repairshop owner's wife when she moved 15m away to return a trolley
she had her grandchildren in the car to be safe
when she came back, there was this very caring and self-righteous woman screaming at her and threatening to report to the police

yes..there were cases of idiotic parents leaving their babies in the hot sun with the windows all wound up

all sorts

@Lexi
i recall my children told me of a school bully in their senior high school days

well known boy who stood out infamously in an otherwise well behaved cohort in a very good govt school (top 1&2 in our state)
he was impossible to control and gave the educationists hell

now listen to this
he often boasted no one had a right to punish him
he said he even warned his father that he would report him to the police if he even laid a finger on him

wow.
wow.

i wonder where this lad is today?
perhaps still taunting the police?
he wont be holding a job or taunting his employer as it is unlikely he will be holding a job

no sir...i wont employ this lad....not for free.

Susie I doubt it all just as simple as less roaming in the bush and cubby houses but I think you caught the gist of what I was meaning.

Changes such as those are in my view much more likely contributors to any increase in anti-social behaviour than a lack of smacks and canings - but I don't have the evidence to back that.

I'm also not convinced that the demographics most closely identified with increased levels of anti-social behaviour are the ones where there would have been a reduction in corporal punishment of children.

Agreed the abusers are still with us. I'm overall more bothered by the emotional abusers than the smackers. It's easier to identify and deal with physical force that results in injury. Much harder to deal with the emotional scars left by very bad parenting choices.

My overall impression is that the evidence is not there to substantiate claims of long term harm from occasional smacks used as a backup strategy when other forms of discipline are not working.

Parents who won't teach their children any boundaries (regardless of the means used to support those boundaries). Parents who continually attack a child's self worth or teach a lack of respect for self or others in their every day messages. A variety of other things parents do to vulnerable developing lives in their care that are much more likely to leaving lasting harm.

I don't like the enthusiasm some seem to display for smacking but I also wonder if those keen to see it banned have considered where it all goes for parents who are struggling if they don't have what is generally an effective way to stop a child who can't be reasoned with but where the parent still has responsibility. My gut feel is an increase in more damaging behaviours.

R0bert

I agree RObert that the loss of any form of adventure games & play for kids is one reason for bad behavior. The same goes for young adults unless they indulge in some formal adventure sports.

The thing that highlights the change today is my memories from the late 50s. I knew many young people, many teenage girls, who would walk from night classes to at Sydney Uni to central railway station regularly with no fear. The same people would walk home from railway stations at places like Bankstown, Redfern or Bexley, again without fear.

Similarly many attended night courses at Ultimo Tech, walking to Museum station, & home in the suburbs without fear.

Would you allow any family member to do this today. I know I would be there to pick them up, rather than let them walk a few yards to a parked car.

I believe this new dangerous society we live in is due to not having instilled discipline in the younger generations, when we had the chance. Lack of heavy penalties strictly applied when young has actually trained the thugs of today to believe they can get away with anything.

The fact that we have dumb bleeding heart magistrates, who give a slap on the wrist, when 10 strokes of a cane on a bare butt, as would occur in Singapore, would be more appropriate only makes the problem, & the danger in our cities, grow exponentially.

@hasbeen

many here will think you are out of your mind to support the dictatorship in singapore

they have inhumane laws...caning...hanging...

but i share the same views as you do

we are too soft as a nation
too politically correct

the minority rules the nation
while the majority buries their heads in the australian sand

Yes, I looked up the latest crime rates in Singapore, and it does show they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world...especially violent crime.

I was interested to read that violent crimes are rare, as firearms are strictly controlled and punishments for pulling them out in public, let alone using them, are severe.

I would also like to see those sort of strict laws here in Australia .

Hasbeen my impression is that the demographics that are creating the risk you are talking about there are not ones where the parents are likely to have changed disciplining practices because of strong social convictions.

I do share some concerns about poor handling of juvenile offenders where current policies neither punish nor rehabilitate. I'm a bit of a fan of the view that its easier for people to step up to serious offences if lesser offences are not dealt with.

I'm not convinced that those who do the real anti-social behaviour are necessarily from families which try to discipline kids but don't use corporal punishment.

The tools and tactics of discipline are in part different issues to the choices of parents to provide appropriate boundaries for their children or not. I'm of the view the real debate should be more focussed on the need to provide a set of boundaries to children rather than on one specific tool for making a boundary work.

R0bert

Our kids aren't/weren't hit or threatened with a cane, and they are fine - as is the case with the children of friends and family.
Poirot,
If you're using yourself as a guide to calculate the above statement then you're already proven wrong.

R0bert,
I put the blame for most problems with juveniles onto our social surroundings. It's no wonder that intelligent kids go off the rails with the insanity that is modern entertainment. I'm utterly dismayed at the insanely repetitive promos on TV. Just as an example I counted the Channel 7 promo for the slideshow an impossible every two minutes for the past 3 weeks. Same goes for ABC, SBS & all other channels. Are these programmers having a lend of us or are they simply off their brains ? Just look at the utter $hit they're playing, saturation cooking shows, saturation talent shows, saturation travel shows, saturation literally on anything on australian TV. Is it any wonder our kids are slowly going mad from so much supposedly 'adult' insanity ?
These TV channels are government sanctions to drive our kids crazy yet when mum & dad try to do something about they get dragged over the hot coals. I say charge the TV stations with child abuse !

individual,

And if you're using yourself as some sort of example of wise counsel on this thread - don't bother.

You're a great example of a petty, whinging, vacuous drone around here.

Yep, TV as representative of the general malaise of a greedy centralised society that's fast losing its community-mindedness is a point.....there's always the off button (or at least the recourse to exercising some selectivity when watching)

Poirot,
I see OLO as a great tool for people to express their concerns & put forward their ideas of solution. I have offered mine constantly, you on the other hand do nothing but discredit any comments that are aimed at making things better. What you call petty, whinging & vacuous is in fact basic common sense. Perhaps your well adjusted children can explain that to you.

I say we should all gang up on TV executives & literally force them to cut back on this insane playing of promos. Not only would that open a new opportunity of independent film makers to produce way more intelligent material but it more importantly would go a long way to contain the insanity that Tv presently imposes upon us.
How do we do that ? Offer your ideas here & if no notice is taken turn off your TV & play a good DVD instead.

@poirot/Lexi/Rob (and others less those binned)

i was new in this room
now i am getting a flavor on how issues are discussed here
after hearing your views and Lexi and Rob etc, can i ask you a simple question.

if you do not see injuries on my children, not any
and you see they are loved, ie they do no fear me but run into my arms when i am back from work etc etc
and that they are very happy
and you see my wife and all of us very lovey dovey 99% of the time
really functional australian family that anyone will be proud of
and my kids are well mannered, well behaved
and they always topped their cohorts in HS/SHS

and you know i still discipline them the way i said i would
and i know you have another way or philosophy in bringing up yours

would you let me bring up my children the way i see is best?
and not to threaten to report me like the young daughter of one of the members here?

Dear Platypus,

A question has just occurred to me.

The children that you caned who you tell us have
grown up to be responsible adults and I presume
now have children of their own... Do they as
parents cane their own children?

Just curious.

Lexi,
now you are on a physhing expedition to find fault with basic common sense to desperately add half an once of credibility to your arguments. Why do you so desperately want to oppose nature ? Nature has a great way of disciplining the young. Wild animals, domesticated animal, humans even some human animals all use what nature has provided & that is a slap. Yet, the academic "experts" think they know better than Nature herself ? get a life !

I really have a problem with people who are more interested in process than result. If it isn't working try something tougher, until it does work.

Obviously what we are currently doing is a total waste of time. Why would anyone but a twit continue with the process. We have to stop the thugs & rapists, before they become murderers.

I really don't give a damn if it takes 10 cuts with a cane for every offence, or 6 months on a chain gang clearing rubber vine in northern national parks, I just want it stopped.

I can see a reason for a first offence to be treated leniently, but only a first offence. This business of treating 25 offences as a first offence, & giving a slap on the wrist just doesn't work. You know such offenders are on their way to serious thuggery, & they need to be stopped, now

I now wish it was the advocates of this stupid system were the ones who paid the price, rather than some naive Pommy bird, who was silly enough to expect to walk an Oz street safely at night.

Time for fools to grow up.

@Lexi

Your theory is violence breeds violence?
HHH

They all do not have an issue with disciplining their children.
All definitely spank.

The eldest said she will resort to caning if the child remains recalcitrant after heavy spanking....here we go again...reasoning (like you)...hard spanking...light caning..

In case you think we having regular caning exercises.... NO
The small little canes are hung on the wall.
Sign of authority and law (much like a country's law).
Seldom used...but will be used if need be.

There is a story of a young man in jail.
He was brought up all spoilt as he was the only son.
His mother 'reasoned' with him but he always got his ways
One day when the doting mother visited him, he asked her to lean forward to the metal bars of the door, saying he got something to tell her.
When she did, he bit off her ears!
"you wicked son" she shouted.
"no...i am not wicked, that is for not disciplining when i was too young to understand. Now i have to be disciplined by the State"

btw, you have not said if you will leave me alone?

have a blessed Lord's day

Here we go again, is right.....

"The eldest said she will resort to caning if the child remains recalcitrant after heavy spanking...."

She's obviously inherited your disciplinary deficiencies.

(Is she allowed to whop a kid with a cane these days?)

Is there such a thing as a "Blessed caning"?

Dear Individual,

A placid baby, if systematically ill-treated can
become a psychologically disturbed adult. A person
born with a capacity for high intelligence, if
raised in a stultifying environment can grow up
to be a dullard. People learn to develop and satisfy
their potentials in a social setting, and it is
primarily their social experience that will determine
whether or not they realise or fall short of their
potentials. The key to understanding the inter-action
of "nature" and "nurture" is the process of socialisation
where biology and culture meet and blend.

As for your telling me to "get a life?"
Think before you post. No one likes or supports
an abusive, illogical or weak debater. Argue to win.

@poirot

ah...i thot Lexi will come back with that inherited line
didnt know you jumped in first

with your line of argument, i cant win
if one of my child will not cane...you will say.."see..this child suffered from emotional scars and will not do what you did"

'whop'?
colorful word again

i can see you are one who will do the reporting?

did you never spank your own kids?
as in NEVER?

Dear Platypus,

Now I've got two stories for you...

How the blind belief in punishment is passed from
generation to generation is dramatically
illustrated in Willard Motley's book, "Knock on
Any Door." Upon hearing that his son Nick was
sentenced to death for murder, his father said,
"I can't understand it ... I always whipped him
when he did wrong." Nick himself, in his death
cell, has no better advice for the upbringing
of his newborn nephew than, "Don't let what
happened to me happen to him. Beat the hell out
of him. See that he does right."

I remember at high school one teacher who gave
us a long sermon on integrity. We listened and
laughed inside. She was teaching dishonesty
and didn't know it. I was late for school once
because I overslept. She said, "That's not a good
excuse." And she punished me. I got the message.
The next time I was late, I made up a convincing
story.

Punishment is pointless. It fails to achieve its
goal. No child says to themselves, while being
punished, "I'm going to improve.
I'm going to be a better person - more responsible,
generous, and loving." Children know that
punishment is rarely administered for their benefit,
that it serves the needs of the punishing adult.
The fact is, those who rely on retribution invite
revenge. He who resorts to verbal vilification
and physical force teaches violence. He engenders hate
and becomes a partner in violence and an accessory to
future crime.

Unlike ships, human relations founder on pebbles, not
reefs. A parent can be most destructive or most
instructive in dealing with everyday disciplinary
problems. Their instant response makes the difference
between condemnation and consolation, rage and peace.
Good discipline is a series of little victories in
which a parent, through small decencies, reaches a
child's heart.

Punishment is pointless. It fails to achieve its
goal. No child says to themselves, while being
punished, "I'm going to improve.
Lexi,
paleeeze,you're becoming over-academic. Of course no "child" will think that. No "child" is advanced sufficiently to think that. No"child" does think that. What every"child" will take notice of is the fact that it will learn very rapidly & remember for good that if doing wrong results in some discomfort from a slap. Period !
Juveniles on the other hand require a severe talking to in addition to some physical discomfort before they think of doing wrong. They'll always find a way of getting around doing wrong once they know it doesn't result in punishment. Punishment is Nature's Law !

@Lexi

I respect your views.
But will you respect mine and not report me to the authorities?

shalom

Dear Platypus,

I have never reported anyone to the authorities.
I do have another question for you.
Why do you keep wishing me - "Shalom?" - not that
there's anything wrong with wishing me "peace,"
but it's usually a Jewish greeting and -
I am not Jewish.

Dear Individual,

You miss the point entirely.

Our goal as parents is to instruct, to teach, to help our
children develop self-discipline. Punishment at best
only teaches an obedience to authority - not self control.
It may restrain them from doing wrong temporarily but
it doesn't teach them to do right, or make them wish to do it.
And it certainly isn't apropriate to punish children
under three, because they really can't either evaluate
or control their own actions very well.

Lexi,
I don't think you're making the connection & distinction between punishment & instilling discipline.

Dear Individual,

I explained the connection sometime ago.
Go back and re-read - my post on page 8 of this discussion.
It will clarify things for you.

platypus1900
Man you are one sick [deleted for abuse] you should be reported and institutionalized before someone gets to you.

You are wasting your time fellers, trying to talk to women about their kids.

A mate of mine had to knock his 24 year old son out with a cricket bat, when he found the son demanding money off his mother to support his drug habit, by holding a carving knife to her throat.

The mother still thinks he is "a good boy really" just a bit off the rails.

The only thing that kid is good for would be making fertiliser, & I mean the blood & bone variety.

Dear Platypus900,

You whinge “now i am getting a flavor on how issues are discussed here”.

You came into this forum with a thread titled “Let no man tell me how I should discipline my children”, slandered our concerned professionals who see the often traumatic results of physical punishment meted out to children calling them fame seekers, you then deride the years of social justice achieved by the 'Western tradition' which lead the way in securing rights for children, such as the right to an education and an end to the workhouses of old and basically labelled the vast majority of us who do not employ a cane on our two year old children as risking 'an entire generation'.

And that was all in your first post so if you are upset with the response, tough.

The reason people such as yourself employ a cane is to concentrate the force of an arm swing on to a smaller area of flesh thus elevating the pain and distress felt by the victim.

and then this;

“after the punishment, i ALWAYS give them a hug and i will always ask them if papa loves them they will say yes (not much choice there)”

So you were forcing them to affirm a love for you after you wilfully harmed them? Why didn't you just tell them straight out that you loved them? This smacks of such self-justification that it is frankly disturbing and surely emotionally abusive toward the child.

One of the reasons why caning was stopped in government schools was that the teachers felt quite strongly that it demeaned them and their role. Here were people who in your reasoning had the most to gain by retaining corporal punishment yet gave it up for that reason.

As Jesus said in Luke “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.”

Caning two year olds is deeply offensive behaviour to most thinking, caring and undiminished people.

@hasbeen

1. the young man who held his mother to knife point should be reported to the police
2. i dont know how he has been brought up...maybe by reasoning and definitely no spanking or caning... now too late
3. cricket bat... that is extreme...that will injure and even kill...just report to the police...too late for discipline

this young man will bite off the ear of his mother when he is in prison

@chrisgaff

you are rude and vitriolic
you likewise has been binned
be informed i will not read your posts or any posts of people i binned
welcome to the real world
you have a right
so do i
my right is not to talk or discuss matters with you
i will not call you names because i was well brought up
i am sure your mother didnt bring you up well
it shows

Please, I think it is time this tread was laid to rest and everybody agrees to disagree. People are starting to get rather nasty and acting like naughty children.

@Lexi

sometimes shalom
sometimes peace
sometimes blessing
sometimes cheers

what is your preference?

@poirot

on why you even bother to come to this forum to discuss when you are so filled with angst with members like myself and a few others

a. you need affirmation
b. when you were young, you pushed boundaries and your parents didnt discipline you and so you are not 'well adjusted'
c. deep inside you, you know you are not quite right about this topic or death sentence and you are still searching. Maybe you know we are right but like poor nicodemus, you find it hard to go back to your mother's womb?

just some thoughts

Dear Platypus,

Thanks for explaining. I now get it.
I don't mind which one you use.
They're all fine - your choice.

@Lexi
I respect your views on how you wish to bring up your children.
I hear them.
And thanks for hearing me out and not threatening to report me or my children when they spank or cane their children in love.
Over dinner I checked with my eldest daughter and to my surprise, both she and and husband said they will use the cane if need be.

anyway have a blessed weekend or whatever minutes we got left

Platypus1900 when a 60 year old faces a wild eyed 24 year old with a carving knife, I believe a cricket bat is rather poor armament, when wielded hard enough, it just might break. A lump of water pipe would be better.

For those who reckon corporal punishment doesn't work, a rather horrible little story.

I was waiting in the park beside the barge ramp for the car ferry one day, on Russell Island, a Moreton Bay island. A family of 5 were also waiting in the park. Mum dad & 3 kids. One was small enough to be carried from their car in a bassinet, but I did not see how young.

The kid in the bassinet was yowling, & did so for some minutes. It was shouted at a couple of times, without any effect.

The woman then picked up a lump of tree branch, about 50mm diameter & a meter long. She raised this up over the bassinet as if threatening to hit the child/baby with it. There was immediate silence.

My immediate thought was thank god I'm not hers, & my second thought, could a mother ever hit a baby/very small child with such an implement. The fact that the threat brought the immediate desired effect tended to suggest this one did.

They did not appear to be dead beets, they were nicely dressed, & drove a nice car.

I suppose there could be another answer to the effect, but I was so shocked I have remembered it from over 30 years ago.

Still I wonder how big a stick should be applied to young thugs, who glass people on Saturday nights, in so called clubs, throughout our once fair country

@bec

perhaps we should spank them like naughty children?
it is funny but my grown up children will never call people names like many of the members heredo

perhaps these people has not been disciplined since young and hence the idea of other people's kids being disciplined threatened their freedom?

i must single Lexi out to be a fine example of a good debater
always courteous and civil

Dear platypus900,

Lexi is indeed a saint on OLO, far more measured than most of the rest of us and hardly ever given to strong words of rebuke.

So please understand when she said “Their discipline is never bizarre and their corrections never sadistic. Caning is sadistic,
Hitting a 2 year old? - awful!” that this was indeed one of the strongest condemnations I have see her make on this forum.

Awful, bizarre, sadistic. All coming from someone you appear to respect.

Get it through your thick skull mate you are out of order. Take up your collection of canes, god forbid they are still hanging on your wall, and burn them. You can not undo what you have done but do not propagate this behaviour through your children thus exposing your grandchildren to the same. This is Australia in the 21st Century and we are a Western nation with Western values and if that is such a problem for you then please consider moving.

I think the clearest positive example for slapping an unruly child would be that it more than likely will not turn into a Labor voter & therefore become a well adjusted adult.
There you have it :-)

"There you have it :-)"

Yep, individual's latest suppository of wisdom : )

csteele
Don't let that wacko platypus1900 get under your skin. He deserves to be ignored...for good

Dear chrisgaff1000,

The likes of platypus900 should get under every thinking person's skin. Most on this thread probably feel I have gone in pretty hard and while I don't resile from any of it, in fact I will continue to challenge this man and his views whatever rock I find him under, I do acknowledge it is to a degree personal.

My wife has a fundamentalist Christian father who also did not believe in sparing the rod, in his case a long ruler or his palm. I know first hand how those punishments impacted her. I have spoken about this to two of her other siblings and they too have deep and bitter feelings about how they were treated.

Yet the extended family gathers monthly and just as in platypus900's case smiles and hugs are the order of the day.

Before my wife and I were married, and understanding a little of what had happened, I felt the need to assure her that if I ever lifted a hand to her I would leave immediately. I also was quite firm that I would never harm our children through physical punishment.

One night at a family gathering, when I was not present, my father-in-law struck my oldest child aged about 4 for throwing a spoon.

I learned about it late that night. I drove straight to his house and got him out of bed and outside. He was basically informed if the incident ever happened again it would end very badly. It is hard to describe just how angry I was. All the resentment about how he had treated my wife as a child came to the fore and combined with a father's protective instincts it took a lot of will power not to damage him. He was very quiet and the only words he said was that he understood.

I refused to see him for the next 6 months and my children were only allowed to visit if another adult was present.

I now get on quite well with him and we have never discussed it since.

cont...

cont...

The greatest impact of this 'Christian' upbringing was on my wife's sister. She was the more headstrong of the two sisters and therefore bore the greater proportion of the punishment. What it instilled in her was the feeling that violence in a relationship was almost normal. She married a Christian man and the beatings started early. She tried to seek counselling through their church but when they attended it was to face four other men. She baulked and did not reveal the abuse. Four years later her husband stabbed her nearly twenty times with a skinning knife in front of their children. She thankfully survived. She is a strong and very special individual who has gone on to raise two great well balanced children.

There are many things a parent tries to teach their own children. One of the things I was determined to do was ensure they understood that being physically harmed by those who claim they love them is never okay and never to be tolerated.

I know the feelings of fear, hurt and resentment experienced by my partner from the punishments meted out by her father. I know in my heart these same feelings would have been felt by platypus900's children, whatever they tell him to his face. I resent him for inflicting it on them but I resent him far more for wanting the practices to continue through his children and for claiming some divine prerogative to do so.

In his heart of hearts I don't think my father-in-law feels he did anything wrong, not that he would ever say that to me. It was how he was raised. He is justifiably proud of all his offspring and would see his actions as contributing to their successes. He is getting on and I am not of the mind to ever raise it with him and join the dots.

However those who openly tout this form of physical abuse need to be challenged firmly. This needs to end in this generation.

Yep, individual's latest suppository of wisdom : )
Poirot,
Well, you're one of those it didn't work with. Education couldn't do it, a suppository couldn't do it, perhaps nothing will. No matter how we try to get sense into you, you simply act like a donkey.

I was brought up in an Irish Catholic "Christian" household. I had 12 siblings younger and older and a father who used his position as head of the house like the old "Ancien Regime" He was god just below GOD and we knew it. He used to belt the cr@# out of us for whatever reason he could find especially talking at the dinner table or playing with his fishing gear.
As far as I know all my brothers and sisters grew up to be good hard working social citizens so the strap didn't hurt us.
This 'bonehead' platypus1900 isn't worth the time of day.

Oh come on, as if he really canes a 2 year old child:-)

You guys are so gullible.

For a start, a 2 year old would not need any response other than distraction which is pretty easy. 'Hey look over there', then they have forgotten what they were last doing.

Then again I suppose those nappies are pretty thick, you would have to hit them pretty hard on the bum for them to even feel it.

You'd have to have a good aim to hit their hands with a metre long cane.

Anyway, you would think people would get with the times, there must be all sorts of electronic devices to shock them with these days.

The interesting thing to me is the adults. How must they feel just after violently abusing a small child.

Prize for the sickest sentence:

'after the punishment, i ALWAYS give them a hug and i will always ask them if papa loves them
they will say yes (not much choice there) ..and that they were punished because they were naughty'

"Don't you want people to love you?
My spanking, that's the only thing i want so much...

Because you get closer to the person...
Closer to the person...
Why is that better than being hugged?
Because you get closer to the person...
Closer to the person...
Just like a person having sex feels cared for...
We wanna be loved, so we have sex together...
And they feel loved about that...
And this is the way it makes me feel...loved...
I want it, i dream about it, i think about it, i want it...
Just like a girl wants sex with a boy, you know?
It's the way i'll always be probably...
My last one was born in the system...
See, they're stupid, very stupid, those people over there...
They're stupid...
These people are so below mentality, honest to god, really...
You know what i mean, he got the nerve to bug me...
This mentality, honest to god, really...
Hey foxymophandlemama, that's me...
She prides herself on her cleaning habits...

It's a lovely stupid mop, it is...
There's something really screwey about no streaking...
Is it any old dumb mop? it streaks...
Come on mop, no streaking mop...
I don't mind mop the floor, my mop streaks, i don't like it...
It's not me, it's the mop...
Come, i bought some new mops...
Go away you stupid, dumb old sponge mop...
I don't believe it...now the floor looks beautiful...
In two weeks, before she could see herself not dressed...
The twenty-third of may...you know she disturbed no one today...
The manager told her to completely forget...
If you ever go to bed, i'll kill you...
Do i tell the whole world that i'm mentally ill?
Go to the papers...yeah, why not?
Drum roll...
I want to show them that i can walk on my own without hands of theirs...
And, i can still fantasize, but i keep it to myself...
Keep it to myself...keep it to myself...
I think i deserve to be loved, don't you?
Very much so...
Think i deserve to be loved...
Keep it to myself...keep it to myself...

Do you ever think that you actually would kill yourself?
Well, if i have thought about it real, uhh, real deep...
Yes, i believe i would...

any fool can see that after 50 or 60 years of permissive parenthood has resulted in the most selfish generation in our history. Violence, hatred, selfishness, greed, drug usage and idolatry prevail. And to think the godless have the arrogrance to lecture those who discpline their children. Unbelievable.

runner,

On the contrary - the criticism is directed at how people discipline their children.

The popular conclusion, it seems, from those who are "religious" around here, appears to be that if infants and young children aren't regularly caned or whipped with a strap, they will grow up as delinquents.

I can't work out why my kids (who weren't caned or strapped) are so well-behaved....?

@poirot
i note you have a habit of using colored words and painting such horrific pictures
INFANTS?
WHIPPED WITH A STRAP?
no no... I do not cane infants
do you really think i am out of my mind
2 yo are not infants
our children were NEVER punished when they were infants...not even a harsh word
they only get lots of love and attention

my view is a child at 2 knows more than you think
my children speaks when they are 11 mths
by 24 mths, they were already reading
they cannot reason like you
they do not read psychological books like you
but they sure can understand when they are punished.

if a light stroke of a cane on the palm will teach my young chidren they cannot mess with power points, fire, or wearing plastic bags on their heads as headgear, i will.

better that then a dead young child.

what i dont seem to understand is why do you insist i must follow your guidelines ie..how old is old and how methods i should use?
isnt it enough we agree on the broad issues like
a. as long as the child can recognise discipline and punishment when they are old enough
b. absolutely no injury to the child
c. no uncontrolled spanking or caning in a frenzy etc etc?

@hou
who said it is a meter long cane?
and no...it is not spiked with barbed wires
and definitely not laced with salt

"sickest sentence"?
i differ
my children understood
perhaps not you?
they tell me know with a big laff
"dad...we knew we deserved the punishment"

Hahah

'Violence, hatred, selfishness, greed, drug usage and idolatry prevail.'

Violence: Hitting 2 year olds with the cane.
Hatred: Of non-believers
Selfishness, Greed: Baby boomers personified:-)
Drug Usage: Woodstock anyone?
Idolatry: What, looking up to god? Hahaha.

Same as it ever was.

My kids have had about half a dozen smacks in their lives, luckily for them mostly on their nappies. They're amazingly well behaved, people are always asking how we do it. I tell them it's not me it's the kids.

Maybe those 6 or so light smacks were bloody persuasive.

I believe kids vary greatly on how easy they are to handle. The scary thing is the kids that have more challenging personalities are more likely to be trained with violence:-)

The easiest way to control kids I reckon is sleep, good food, routine, consistency, and showing a good example. In that order. It's amazing how many middle class parents ignore sleep and routine, and are a bit anal on the food. Nobody is totally consistent but some try harder than others.

I have seen people who don't smack, but are constantly screaming abuse at their kids. I think that's probably more traumatic for some kids, while smacking is more traumatic for others. I would have preferred the smack as a kid because its over and done with and less emotionally charged than verbal abuse.

It is in the 'how' of discipline...

'The popular conclusion, it seems, from those who are "religious" around here, appears to be that if infants and young children aren't regularly caned or whipped with a strap, they will grow up as delinquents.'

Rather, it seems, the harder you hit them the more you must love them! Or, it's ok to thrash them while making them tell you that you still love them.

"dad...we knew we deserved the punishment"

If you bring a kid up hitting them and telling them it's because you love them, of course they're going to say that.

You'd get a rude shock if you heard what they say, in private, to their partners, when they're not still obediently singing the family tune or trying to assuage the guilt they suspect you must feel.

Look people are born in different environments and they take the family rules and roles as normal, and they play along in habit or some sense of loyalty or in order not to explode their core beliefs put their by their parents, but really if you knew food and sleep and routine and distraction wold work, would you still hit your kids.

Do you do it so you don't have to think of your parents as abusive?

Of course we're talking about degrees, and it's a mater of how hard or how often etc, but you guys seem to be trying to out-do each other with stories of caning 2 year olds.

Houellie,

"The easiest way to control kids I reckon is sleep, good food, routine, consistency, and showing a good example. In that order. It's amazing how many middle class parents ignore sleep and routine, and are a bit anal on the food. Nobody is totally consistent but some try harder than others."

Oh yeah....you are so right.

That's the most balanced comment on this thread.

(Houellie's a wise parent!)

Just think of life as a kid.

You have absolutely no autonomy and have no idea what is going to happen when you wake up, no concept of time, and haven't the communication skills to convey your needs and wants.

Living like this is much easier if you can at least get 10 mins warning when you're about to be taken home, get cues like baths and books to tell you to wind down as it will be bed time soon, and have had a good sleep and be well fed to help you deal with the stress and the energy you expend, and be dealt with in a consistent manner so you can work out actions and consequences in any reliable way.

People expect so much of kids sometimes. Put an adult in the same situation and they'd crumble and be crying their eyes out.

You're sitting having a conversation with friends, and someone picks you up and straps you into a car and takes you home. You have no idea what time anything is going to happen. You only get the equivalent of 4 hours sleep, and have to live off junk food, and your boss is totally unpredictable and even starts yelling and hitting you when you don't comply instantly, even if you don't understand.

platypus1900,
"i note you have a habit of using colored words and painting such horrific pictures"

and yet you opened a thread which is mostly about the legal termination of a pregnancy with the word 'murdering' in the title to describe that action.

Some double standards maybe.

As for your earlier question. If I came across you doing anything like caning as I recall it to a 2 year old I'd be taking some action. That goes well beyond and sane concept of child discipline.

For the sake of not breaching forum rules on flaming I won't speculate further on the motivations for the use of a cane on a 2 year old but take it that I don't consider that extreme in a good light.

R0bert

@rob
but i do think that is murder
how else would you describe the intentional termination of a human life, especially your own?

@hou
we do think from a child's pov when we bring up our kids
like before we leave a playground, we will always ask
'darlings...time to go...ok?'
and if they ask for more time, we will always give them that 15 min or 30 mins.

just because i do not subscribe to the stds and methodology of quite a few of the members here, i have been branded an evil wicked rotan wielding step father

would you change your mind if you had a chance to speak to my grown up kids?
and ask them what they thought of then and now?

no...i do not boast of the caning
i wished there was no need at all
i assure you there is no competition here
but unfortunately there were times that i needed to

i note you smacked your kids
you did?
really?

platypus,

"no...i do not boast of the caning"

You don't?

"I have 3 grown up adult children.
The first is a PhD graduate.
The second is successful vet.
The third is a teacher in Chemistry.

All of them were caned when they were young.
I discipline them when they are from 2-12 years old
After that, the canes are thrown away.
They are then old enough to reason with.

Now they are all grown up with successful careers and happily married."

Yes you do......

As I said, there's no way he actually caned a 2 year old.

If he had that 2 year old would have been prime minister by now.

platypus I am human I have smacked my children on the odd occasion. But I am not proud of it like you. I don't see it as some sign I am a good parent, and I accept people will judge me. If I was quicker thinking and had better composure I could have thought of an alternative.

I don't kid myself that I 'needed' to. You can escalate punishment or you can think outside the square. You have to find their currency. In an arms race, how far will you go. Warnings, threats, bribes, withholding stuff, manipulation, emotional blackmail, smacking, caning, if all that doesn't work what's next, punch in the face? If that doesn't work....

Best to keep control of the situation and have your next move planned. If you go to smacking too soon you don't have many palatable options left now do you. Best to keep your powder dry.

One does wonder how a child who cant be reasoned with until 12 years of age ends up PhD graduate. I suppose conformity under the threat of violence is good preparation for society.

I can reason pretty well with my 5 year old. Maybe it's the absence of the fear of violence:-)

@ hou

so you did smack your children

was it when you were out of control or your child was out of control?

how hard did you smack?
1= caress
10= blood letting

a 2 or a 3 or a 7?

which one should poirot report you to the authority for?

was your child emotionally scarred as a result of those smacks?
since you are loving and never dreamt of even lifting a last finger on him or her?
i am sure he/she must have cried his/her heart out

ok ok
sorry of the cheeky rhetorics

have a good day

to all the well mannered members here who do not hurl abuses or vitriolic remarks

we had a good discussion and i do believe i have said my peace and i have nothing else to add

with your kind permission, this will be my last post for this thread

peace and may you all bring up your children you know how, for a better australia

Platypus,

"which one should poirot report you to the authority for?"

Who said anything about reporting to authorities?

I've been discussing your "past" regime of caning your young children.

I'm interested in this comment:

"to all the well mannered members here who do not hurl abuses or vitriolic remarks"

I know you'll include me in your little salute.

Or is it that, although you started a thread to trumpet your style of discipline, that you assume people who challenge it are engaging in hurling abuse and vitriol?

'so you did smack your children'
Yes. I don't see where the confusion lies.

'was it when you were out of control or your child was out of control?'
Both

'how hard did you smack?
1= caress
10= blood letting'

3

'which one should poirot report you to the authority for?'

I believe people should report any parent that uses a weapon like a cane, that leaves a mark, or generally seems to use violence as a first option.

'was your child emotionally scarred as a result of those smacks?'

Too soon to tell. It's far too subjective a call for even the best psychiatrist to make. I think emotional scarring is inevitable in any person no matter how well adjusted, whether smacked or not. Parents are far from perfect and have many competing messages to attempt to convey at just the right time in their child's life so they can be accurately interpreted, and that's even allowing for overcompensation from their own flawed upbringings.

'i am sure he/she must have cried his/her heart out'

Of course.

Are you telling me when you used a weapon to beat your children that they didn't cry because you forced them to parrot that you loved them?

Do you not think that was a very confusing message for them, to be beaten with love, and do you not think it self serving and manipulative that you coerced this declaration from them to assuage your guilt for striking them? This guilt you have is very obviously illustrated by that behavior, and how defensive you are here.

Did you actually really use a cane on a 2 year old, or are you just prone to hyperbole?

Why does it excite you so much that I have on occasion smacked my children? Do you think it somehow justifies your own actions? I'm not proud of doing that, so why do you feel that action supports your opinion that it is good for kids to be caned

Dear platypus900,

This is really what this thread is about;

“not threatening to report me”

“which one should poirot report you to the authority for?”

“But will you respect mine and not report me to the authorities? “

“i can see you are one who will do the reporting?”

“and not to threaten to report me”

“because busybodies reported them“

“in your neighbourhood, i would have been reported”

“What would you say if Mrs Smith called the police and reported you for child abuse?”

You are really very threatened by the notion that you are not the absolute authority in your little world. Of course you would claim God as the ultimate authority but you can really make him say what ever you want can't you. You have acknowledged that what you were doing would get you reported but dismiss the 'laws of man' and have informed us you demand that no "man tell me how I should discipline my children”.

Well our law makers have seen fit to extend protection to those such as your children am I for one am extremely happy they have done so. If this means you feel some insecurity over your 'authority' then it can only be a good thing.

Dear Houellebecq and R0bert,

Same thoughts here I'm afraid.

Perhaps this clip is to the point, Jack Schaap preaching at a youth conference. Astounding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr0UpQXYkGs

"Let no man tell me how I should discipline my children"...

Well, there's the problem right there in the title.

The same self-justification used by everyone who has ever physically or emotionally abused their children.

Try this comparison: Would the same caning being administered by a non-family member for the same perceived transgressions be regarded as grounds for an assault charge?

If not, why not?

If so, why should family be 'allowed' to?

Still, the circle may be closed when your loving children need to discipline you with caning when your dementia sets in and you have the mental capacity of a 2 year old (and nappies).

@wm
My children were NEVER caned or punished or even scolded for soiling nappies.

Do you spank them for such matters?

The cane was used very infrequently and with no joy to me I assure you.

Actually the Education Act and the Child welfare Acts used to specify the length and thickness of canes to be used as discipline tools and they defined the physical area on the body to be used for discipline. They differed for boys to girls.
Sick wasn't it Defining a weapon to be used against children but very British though.

Dear platypus900,

You wrote;

"with your kind permission, this will be my last post for this thread".

Permission granted.

Csteele, has it ever occurred to you that if your kids had been reasonably brought up & trained, they would not have thrown some one elses spoon.

No I thought not.

Platypus1900. 'The cane was used very infrequently and with no joy to me I assure you'

Ah well, if you didn't enjoy caning the under 12 kids then that's ok then, all is forgiven.

You still haven't said what the canes were made of?
Metal?
Wood?
Bamboo?
Leather? No, that wouldn't be stiff enough, or painful enough.
How about a tree branch?

metal...with spikes coated with poison
:)

I'm not surprised... : )

"My children were NEVER caned or punished or even scolded for soiling nappies."

Strange of you to infer something which was not implied... Do the points I did, in fact, raise require more time to consider, or ignore?

WmTrevor,

Platypus was fairly upfront with what he considered a caning offence in his 2 - 12 year-olds.

"and there are just that few categories that will call for the cane

a. telling lies
b. disrespectful to elders
c. cheating
d. engaging in activity that is life threatening
e. not doing homework or putting their best into studies"

Suse canes are just that.

They are made from Lawyer Cane, a tropical rainforest plant.

Oh alright then Hasbeen, so it a tree branch, in effect?
Oh well, that's ok then...

I think you blokes have run this thread into the ground. Time to move on although I will close with the thought that a clip around the ears or a boot in the bum never hurt anyone.

You are still all at it?!
Time to move on people.
For those of you who are concerned for Platypus's children, they are adults now and are no longer likely to be caned, and if they are I am sure that they are old enough to defend themselves if need be. So turn your attentions to some CHILDREN in need of help NOW, not years ago.
Platypus and Co, turn you time to writing letters to those who are seeking to change the laws if you are against them been changed. Get together a petition or something.

In case there are those who don't want me to stick my nose in without giving you the chance to chop it off I will give you my opion.

I think a light smack on the backside with a open palm or the ends of fingers across the back of the hand is fine, as long as it is the last form of discipline on a large list of alternates. And you are sure to explain the wrong doing to the child. This is what they are trying to outlaw now.
A "caning" is using a weapon and is not only now illegal but in my eyes completely wrong, especially on the hand where there are a lot of fine bones, ligaments and joints that could sustain damage. Neither is hitting across the head, or clipping over the ear. I was smacked as a child, smacks where fine and well deserved but I still resent the few backhanders I received across the mouth and side of the head (which has resulted in permanent dental and ear damage). I received them for asking why I should do something which was seen as "disrespecting my elders".

Thank you Bec, for restoring some perspective to this rather arid discussion. Let's move on.

Joe

Thanks Bec and Loudmouth,

However, if some of us wish to discuss the principles behind platypus' contention "in the opening post" of this thread that he caned his very young children - then we will please ourselves when we've discussed it to our satisfaction.

It's not up to you two to dictate which parts of his opening post should be central to the discussion.

Thanks, Poirot... I had understood those categories. I was responding to the reply declaiming "soiling nappies" which I had not mentioned.

There does seem to be a disconnect for some as to the distinction between 'discipline' and 'punishment'. To me, caning is punishment not discipline. Whereas Bec's "light smack on the backside with a open palm..." I regard as acceptable discipline and not at issue.

My comparison was: that the justification for caning presented was for people who could not be reasoned with equally applies to many with dementia, often sadly our parents.

In my defence, though infrequently strapped (with the legally approved Victorian Governement Education Department specification model at the time), and not always for any infringement on my part, by my father I did not take the opportunity for corporal punishment revenge during my time caring for him.

Any ability at reason disappeared long before any loss of beligerant and compulsive behaviours.

(My Dad's, that is, not mine!)

WmTrevor,

"There does seem to be a disconnect for some as to the distinction between 'discipline' and 'punishment'. To me, caning is punishment not discipline. Whereas Bec's "light smack on the backside with a open palm..." I regard as acceptable discipline and not at issue."

I agree.

My point in harping on the caning is that it is punishment of an extreme kind, especially on a two or three year-old. One should acknowledge that in infants the ability to reason and take direction is not developed sufficiently to behave in a civilised fashion some of the time. To be hit with a cane as part of a regime set up by a parent for failure to adhere to certain standards is way beyond reasonable "discipline" in children so young.

There is a world of difference between light smacks and a regime of caning of the very young.

If anyone here who reckons a caning, or a "boot up the bum" is acceptable behind closed doors - how would they react to witnessing the same thing out in the open in a supermarket - on an infant child?

One thing that's not been covered in this thread is evidence.

The Wikipedia page on corporal punishment seems to provide a reasonable coverage of the topic with references for a number of studies on the effects

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home

R0bert

Corporal punishment or physical abuse?

The degree of physical punishment that a parent or carer can use with a child is subject to legal regulation in Australia. In most states and territories, corporal punishment by a parent or carer is lawful provided that it is carried out for the purpose of correction, control or discipline, and that it is "reasonable" having regard to:

* the age of the child;
* the method of punishment;
* the child's capacity for reasoning (i.e., whether the child is able to comprehend correction/discipline); and
* the harm caused to the child (Bourke, 1981).

Corporal punishment that results in bruising, marking or other injury lasting longer than a 24-hour period may be deemed to be "unreasonable" and thus classified as physical abuse. As an example, the New South Wales Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) establishes that corporal punishment is unreasonable if the force is applied to any part of the head or neck of a child or to any other part of the body of a child in such a way as to be likely to cause harm to a child that lasts for more than a short period. Corporal punishment that is unreasonable in the circumstances may lead to intervention by police and/or child protection authorities.

It is lawful in Australia to use corporal punishment to discipline children as long as the punishment is "reasonable" in the circumstances. Punishment that is "unreasonable" (e.g., punishment that causes harm to a child that lasts for more than a short period) may be classified as physical abuse and could lead to intervention by police and/or child protection authorities.

Are corporal punishment and discipline the same thing?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:z4wDrOsiZzUJ:http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/sheets/rs19/rs19.html%2BJudges+were+banned+in+1900,australia&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&hl=en&ct=clnk