Rudd had better call an election before too many wake up that he is conning the Aus voting public. Already those that have read the signed documents are finding massive holes. It is not as he said it was on Friday.

Some of the differences that apparently have came to light.
Not ALL arrivals will be sent to PNG, they are 'liable' only to be sent. According to PNG, the number is not unlimited. PNG has not said it will accept the 'economic migrants' only the 'refugees' Refugees will be supported by Aus financially with no time limit.
Why advertise in Aus media and in English.

Rudd has done more backflips on the illegals thing than a circus performer. Before 2007 he said he would 'turn back' the boats. After 2007 he played the good Samaritan and opened the doors to the illegals. He also caved in to the illegals on the Oceanic Viking and ferried them to Aus. Now he wants us to believe that he is tough on illegals and will send some to PNG, but tells us ALL will go there.

This change is not designed as a long term solution, but merely designed to alter the public perception long enough to get Rudd elected.

Just look at his track record of untruths and failures. Perhaps the financial benefits he has promised PNG will come to light eventually.

I suggest we make Rudd to live in western Sydney.

At least Rudd has put up an idea .
Abbott has just said they will turn the boats back.
But how?

Suse,

Yeah I wonder who's the best pollie.

The one who strikes a deal to toss compassion to the wind.

Or the one who merely tosses the idea around in slogan form.

(Pair of stinkers)

Suseonline - If Abbott gives away what he will do, if it is a good plan Rudd could copy it.

Don't show your full hand until you are in power.

Personally I don't trust either of them.

I agree...I don't trust either of them either.

If Abbott feels he has to come up with something 'better' than Rudd has, then his idea might be even worse!

Papua New Guinea doesn't have a good track record for education, healthcare or domestic violence rates. If the vast majority of the Asylum Seekers are found to be legitimate refugees, why should we banish them to such a place?

That is only a slightly better solution than continuing to encourage them to risk death by travelling here in small boats.

Good morning Banjo.
I admire your front.
We are I hope still mates.
But it takes what was once called Moral Fiber, [hope I spelt that right].
To stand beside Tony Abbott and call another a fraud.
Labor has been to hell- then back.
We have a long way to go.
But without Kevin it is too far.
He l know as Kevin 24/7 brings with him a true wish to get things done.
Like every politician he has an ego.
But even with a frantic media trying every trick in the book,including *the Australian* lie this morning, you are quite right old mate.
To fear Kevin.
Should we be having a beer in any pub, he would be out of place drinking with us, unless we let him pay.
However if it was coffee on a foot path I feel we both wuold be impressed when we left.
That may not fit your views but mate it fits many in comparison with the thought of Abbott leading us for 3 years

So much to be read without it being printed, stretching the faggot somewhat don't you think.
Twenty readers and twenty in between the line readers. Abbott has really got foot steps behind him. Hockey has been trying to get a policy out there but he can't get a word in. The coalition will keep the NG plan, but doing his best to get the boaters to still come so the place is overrun.
When you see the conditions of refugee camps overseas, i don't know what the big deal is, giving them permanent accommodation here. That is the risk they take.

Doog > Please correct me if I'm getting the wrong impression from reading your comments in several of the recent discussions.

Are you saying we shouldn't have any policy to stop a potential flood of refugees other than opening the door for all to come?

Once these people are on Australian soil they will be here for good, other than a small handful that might be deemed undesirable do to a criminal background. Do you want to Australia to completely ignore the negative social and economic effects the European countries have experienced as a result of their benevolent open door policies?

Maybe you can explain what your ideal policy would be.

How can you come up with that after what i have written. The vast majority wants the boats stopped and Rudd is doing his best to make that happen. Abbott for purely political reasons is Reading something that is not written and making sure the smugglers get the message to overrun Mannus isl; At the same time saying they will keep the solution if they get elected.
So much for 'STOP THE BOATS; Abbott wants PNG. That shows he was struggling for an answer.
It's all got to do with Turnbull listening to every word along with his 49% of voters.

Doog, what does your last comment mean? What do you want to happen?

Forget about bagging Abbott and just tell us what your perfect world would include (besides no Abbott in it).

Rudds PNG initiate will NOT succeed--it's not meant too. As Graham Richardson said it is only meant to hold together till after the election --to impress for a short time.

And mirroring the Malaysian (non)Solution shemozzle wherewith we started accepting "refugees" from Malaysia before we had surety we could send any of ours to Malaysia. Tony Burke is --as I predicted -- already talking about raising the intake level to 37,000!

But credit where it is due. Rudds PNG gambit has flushed out the pretenders

The pretenders, who waiting in Indonesia assured everyone that come hell or high water they would still risk the journey to Oz --they were after-all running for their lives! Yet, 24 hours after the PNG announcement were waiver telling the ABC they wouldn't be boarding a boat if it meant they'd end up with sanctuary in PNG--REALITY CHECK, pleeeeeeeeeease, all you bleeding hearts!

The pretenders, who assured everyone that they're in favor controlled immigration, border security. Their comments often sounding something like this: "Yep. I'm against open borders, too". And who go by deceptively innocuous names like Susie, Poirot & Lexi. Yet whenever ANYONE, does ANYTHING to stop the flow of illegals react like spoiled children who have just had their favorite toy taken away: bwaaabwaaaaaa

When all is said and done we vote for neither Abbott nor Rudd we vote for a local humpty-dumpty who mustn't use independent judgment or follow the constituent's wishes in legislative matters at the cost of being disendorsed. Said humpty-dumpty may use independent judgment and disregard wishes of constituents in getting rid of party leader in a leadership spill. This is a system for a supposed democratic nation?

I think both Abbott and Rudd are unfit to lead Andorra but am more afraid of Abbott.

SPQR,

Not so much....

I'm more interested in highlighting Labor's hypocrisy.

Read it here.

http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/speeches/2008/ce081117.htm

It's positively breathtaking.

So the upshot is that it's precisely useless to even suspect that any party in pursuit of power is driven by principle as opposed to populist exigences.

I give up.

True believers?

"Nothing left to believe in."

http://thehoopla.com.au/left-true-believers/

It's more of being in control of the situation, that is what defines who comes here. There is a process and its called immigration.
Abbott the rabbitt; is in dispare and has got tremors up and down his spine. Not a good look for a would be PM. No policies and no idea, what a politically illiterate being.
the economy comes in last, only to be beaten by Turnbull, he is a real man among men, and listening listening.

doog,

I believe you're right that Rudd has effectively shut down Abbott and his slogans.

Some of us, however we enjoy watching one lot outmaneuver the other, draw the line at parties ditching fundamental principles in order to achieve ascendency.

If you're drawn to a political persuasion on principle, what do you do when there's almost nothing recognisable left on the agenda?

Poirot,
Could you tell us what are your principles on:
Border control?
Illegal entrance?
Genuine Refugees?

Josephus,

You're another one who professes Christian principles, but who doesn't radiate them....like Abbott and Rudd.

http://www.politifact.com.au/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/03/scott-morrison/asylum-seekers-arriving-boat-are-illegally-enterin/

Can't get involved in this one.
The truth will out.
At the ballot box?

Poirot,
I assume the article is your position.
There are no illegal immigrants to Australian soil no matter how they come. All have the right to enter Australia with or without documentation if they claim they are persecuted.

Footnote to my above post:

Another thing Rudd's PNG initiative should be given due credit for is exposing the LIE that those (majority) Ozzies who oppose the unlimited inflow of asylum scammers are the odd ones out in the world community.

When the ABC conducted interviews in Port Moresby the only ones who were in favor of accepting Middle Eastern Muslim, asylum scammers were --surprise, surprise--a small group at the local mosque.

So it would seem that our region is not made up of warm,brotherly loving, non-xenophobes, ay? And our (much touted)need to keep our borders open to preserve our regional reputation might just be another refugee advocates furthy --add it to other two hundred already on the list!



___________________________

Josephus,

Poirot's overriding principle is: anything that undermines the West.
--Opening our borders to all and sundry -tick
-- Signing over our sovereignty to the IPCC--tick
--Turning a blind eye to Muslim imperialism --tick

(it's the one theme that unifies all her campaigns

SPQR,

I feel I owe you an apology - for offending your cringing insular sensibilities.

Sorry about that.

Here's a cartoon for you (and Josephus)

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/photogallery/federal-politics/cartoons/david-pope-20120214-1t3j0.html

I'm sure it captures the presiding sentiment around here.

Maybe I could identify my asylum seeker position.
* We accept genuine persecuted non Muslims from war torn Muslim conflicts.
* We fly them here by the plane load from Refugee camps after establishing their credentials.
* We give them housing and new start allowances up to two years.
* We teach them English, how to apply for work, Social law and our cultural ways.

* We do not accept illegal entry into Australia.

belly,
Morning old son. I am sure we can have different opinions and still have a beer together, without fighting. After all we do agree on some things, like the illegals are shonks who take advantage of our good will and generosity.

You got the spelling nearly right, except the last bit. I think it is Moral Fibre and that is what Rudd lacks. He changes with the wind.
The girls here need not be concerned as, after the election, what ever happens, he will change course again. Just like he did with the Oceanic Viking. The PNG thing is only a short term measure for Rudd. He doesn't care if it costs a few million, but it may give Morrison something to improve on later.

The hide of Rudd, wanting credit for 'fixing' a problem he created.

We do know that the Libs have a record for stopping the boats coming. Which mob would you think most likely to succeed.

Josephus,
Yes that pretty much sums up my position as well, but I think 20,000 is very generous of us.

By the way, I understand there are thousands of genuine refugees in Burma who are mainly Buddists and we have not had any problems with them integrating in our society.

We should bypass those groups that have shown us they cannot or will not integrate.

Rudd seems determined to make as many mistakes as possible in as short a time as possible. He clearing the decks for the next election all right by kowtowing to the one group of people, who were never going to vote for him anyway. The first problem he created for himself was stuffing around with the carbon tax and now he has totally lost the plot with his latest stand on refugees.

By introducing an extreme policy on boat arrivals he has upset a crucial part of the electorate who under favorable circumstances would support the labour party. I don't think it is a fluke that the labour parties support has suddenly fallen back by by 2%. Considering labour's previous views on boat arrivals you would have to label them a bunch of hypocrites.

I do not pretend to know the answer to the problem of unauthorized boat arrivals but I do know that a great many Australians want both a fair and compassionate solution to the problem, at this stage neither party has come up with anything that gets close to the heart of the problem.

The idea of turning the boats back is obviously impracticable most of the boats can't even make it to Christmas island without sinking let alone make it back again to Indonesia. The PNG solution is just as impracticable. The only charitable spin you can put on it is that it is an attempt at wedge politics

The situation is under control, we are the ones who says who comes here, not the smugglers.
The boats don't make it to Xmas isl; by way of an axe.
There is always something going on in politics so lets not fear there will always be something to ramble on about.
So everybody knows what the coalitions policies are by now, even if they are a little discreet at saying anything about them. Abbott and CN get on marvelously it's all about policy sharing. How many will Palmer take from the line up in QLD and Katter what a choice. All this talk about Mr Rudd and the other bloke, there is plenty to pick from and the degree of intelligence is astounding, even here there are lots of very informative people.

Ah, so now we understand what Anti Racists mean when they talk about "diversity" being a strength, it's only a strength when it's a White community which needs to be "diversified",for everyone else it's a liability. Sending Afghans and Tamils to PNG might tend to disrupt their society and throw it's fragile economy out of whack, what's more we're told by the likes of Sean Dorney that such an influx might tend to have a negative impact on the cultural and religious life of the PNG people.
Africa for the Africans, Asia for the Asians, New Guinea for the New Guineans, White countries for EVERYBODY!.

Doog do us a favor, please use of the word fagot is a bit out there ok mate?
Any one want to tell me if Rudd is so bad, but so far out in front of Abbott, what then is Abbott.
Doog I understand you put other emphasis on using that word.
But its common use is as insulting as any word I ever heard.
PS not even happy I am not gay.

Poirot>> True believers?
"Nothing left to believe in."<<

What is a true believer. Is it a Labor traditionalist who supports the core values held by the party from 1930 ‘s on?

Was John Curtain a “true believer”?

John Curtain toughened the White Australia Policy while he was Labor Prime Minister of Australia. He certainly would not have accepted the country shopping, identification destroying illegals.

The Corrine Grant blog suggests that Labor has always supported open borders, and it is anti “true believer” to demand border security….nah she has an agenda.

I must proffer that Corrine Grant does not know a great deal of the history of the Labor party, let alone what values true believers hold. True believers were international socialists and nationalists. They valued the independence and security of their nation and their policies and speeches reflected that.

But there are hundreds of thousands of true believers out there. They live in the suburbs, they want to decide who enters their country, they want the government to spend their taxes prudently, and they want their taxes to build hospitals and infrastructure rather than pay off hundreds of billions in debt.

There are no “true believers” in this Labor government P, just untalented, uninspired men and women. Little wonder Corrine is disapointed given she judges Labor by the clowns who now represent it.

Belly>> PS I am not gay.<<

Or faggoty...just for the record china.

SPQR "And who go by deceptively innocuous names like Susie, Poirot & Lexi. Yet whenever ANYONE, does ANYTHING to stop the flow of illegals react like spoiled children who have just had their favorite toy taken away: bwaaabwaaaaaa"

Oh now don't cry SPQR, just because others don't agree with you.
As it happens, I am insulted you called my name 'innocuous', given that Susie is my REAL name :(
At least I have the guts to use my real name.

I have never been upset about anyone trying to stop the flow of illegals. The vast majority of boat people who arrive here are found to be genuine refugees, NOT illegals.

I don't want to see anyone encourage refugees to come here by boat actually, because they could lose their lives.

I don't know what the answer is ...

Cheers,
Susie.

Suse,
We understand that you're good people but instead of supporting alien tribes you could press your talents into the service of your Nation, you know the group of people who sired you, the ones to whom you are actually related? If you only helped your co-ethnics people would still think you were a good person, you gain nothing but the enmity of your Nation by behaving as you do.
No solution? Yeah actually there is and it would cost you and your people nothing, ban Third World migration into our Nation and to hell with the consequences to the state or the government.

The honey moon didn't last that long, did it.

He should have called an election when he was on a high, because at least if he was in caretaker mode, he would find it harder to have put his foot in his mouth.

It's 2010 all over agin.

The old enough rope theory will claim yet another scalp, because as I have said several times, no amount of fixing will ever see our wasted billions returned, and very few tax paying voters will ever forget that.

JayofMelbourne, I never knew you were an Australian Aboriginal?
I imagine your people were upset when other 'nations' came over here and stole the land from you?

Dear Suse,

I've just read SPQR's comments about us.
Perhaps he can form a fan club for us
seeing as he's such an admirer.

Suse,
How very droll, the concepts of "country" and "nation" are easily distinguishable that's why I make a conscious effort to avoid using the term "country", if I slip up you'll understand that it's years of conditioning at play. "White countries for everybody" comes from a larger memetic device called Whitaker's Mantra, it's a tactic used by anti-egalitarians to draw people into a discussion on our own terms, nothing more.
What do you think you'd lose by styling yourself after Caroline Chisholm and thinking about helping women who've migrated here from the U.K?
I posed the question in another thread about helping the Afrikaners and Irish who live in dire poverty to migrate here, couldn't you and Lexi feel just as good about thinking about helping them?
Is thinking about helping fit young Sri Lankan men somehow more satisfying than thinking about helping destitute Boer women whose husbands have been murdered or been dispossessed and discriminated against by the ANC?

Jay,

Perhaps we should be helping Papua New Guineans - instead of dumping our obligations on them...

http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/for-those-whove-come-across-the-seas-a-short-trip-to-png/662/

Jay, I know exactly what you mean when you say 'nation', and so does everyone else.

Yes Lexi, I am sure SPQR is our biggest fan, as he loves to write about us so often : )

Poirot, I think sending the refugees to PNG is almost as bad as sending them back to where they came from.

How much money will Australia have to spend on ensuring they are well treated in a country with a poor track record on education, health and human rights?
More money wasted than if they were properly cared for in Australia I would wager...

No way around it!
The thought that the Tony Abbott [ mad monk] I knew long before he became leader is other that a silly little man hurts me.
No one should laugh that much so early in the morning.
My little foxy s nearly took to me.
Election is not won or lost yet but the thought of Abbott PM is horrifying

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/attack-puts-abbott-right-into-no-mans-land-20130723-2qhiv.html
Banjo the thread has the raw hide to question Abbott!
Well done good journalism!

If this fails so to does Abbott, at the same time saying they will keep the plan.
The man is a crank of the worst kind.
This will not go unnoticed here and will flash around the world.
Stop the boats, cut the tax, He has little to talk about, and when he does it's all crap

On the contrary, Suse.

Australia isolates it's prisoner asylum seekers from Papua New Guineans.

It has constructed a diabolical detention camp which has morphed into a hell hole which it presides over in top secret.

"In Australia, the facility couldn't even serve as a dog kennel. The owners would be jailed."

Shame.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-23/whistleblower-claims-manus-island-detainees-raped/4839198

Forward that to your friends in Indonesia, they need to know that not us.

doog,

The Indonesians didn't set up a prison camp, under-resourced, understaffed, rife with hopelessness and ensuing problems, floating about in an ill-drained quagmire on Manus Island.

Good old egalitarian, Enlightened, first-world cultured Australia did.

It's entirely our doing.

Grotesque!

Doog,

Presidential Kev loves making grandiose sweeping announcements that bear little resemblance to reality. His agreement with PNG is replete with fluffy motherhood statements with one line reference to settling illegals in PNG and another about Aus covering the costs. There is nothing on who will go, how many or when or what Aus will pay for.

We already see the aid budget moving from fixed programs to a blank cheque for the PNG government, 300 people arrive since Saturday, and women and children being excluded. What a crock.

Well the aid budget can pay for it why not. Why are you such a softy all of a sudden. I reckon they should be housed in containers. Where are the rules that say they have to be 5 star.
People that flee persecution, expect to take what comes. PNG will do their best at serving that up for them. They should not expect any different than the ordinary people of PNG. This is where they are being offered help, if that does not suite go home.

doog,

What an impressive person you are!

Gosh, aren't we glad you've chosen OLO to unload your mangled wisdom.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-24/harris-rimmer-the-top-10-mistakes-in-rudds-png-solution/4838586

Housed in containers....on a tropical island.

What a great slow-cooking idea!

But wouldn't it be be quicker to just boil them in oil?

@Poirot,

I see that you have cherry picked your way through the latest Lateline beat-up -- who would have thought, ay!

<<"In Australia, the facility couldn't even serve as a dog kennel. The owners would be jailed."
Shame.>>

I reckon you must now be level pegging with CSteele for the end of year OLO Cherry Picker Award after this mornings contribution across threads.

Look at it this way Poirot: if we are NOT able to control our borders , what you have been told about Manus, will become the norm in the whole of Oz in the future. If we are Not able to control who settles here, Oz we will morph into just another south Asian slum

Mind you, all the then slum dwellers will probably erect a statue in the central market place to you, in appreciation of all the good work you did in fighting for open borders. And you indirectly will have solved the illegal immigration issue--since, thereafter, no one will want to boat here for "asylum or any other reason--but it wont be a pretty fate.

SPQR,

That's a laugh coming from Mr Cherry-picker extraordinaire : )

It was SBS, not Lateline.

No criticism of our authorities treating other humans that way?

Why am I not surprised?

More boaters dead today, We have to be cruel to be kind. Being told what we need by smugglers does not suit our cause.
If they get any better accommodation than the people of PNG would simply be wrong.
A tent or a container what's the diff.
We can't have these people demanding 5 star housing, it's their decision to abscond from wherever they came from.
All these people will achieve is to drag our standard down to theirs.
Your sympathy is unfounded.

PQR,

I caught the *show* but got the channel mixed --afterall, there is not a lot of difference between Bib and Bub (the ABC & SBS) on this issue (and many many others)

Conditions on Manus might be somewhat poorer than what we might desire --but they are hardly surprising -- given the use of Manus was a stop gap measure.

But if you are in the mood to name and blame?
Part of the blame for it needing to be used must be attributed to people like yourself who are always agitation for what amounts to open borders.

And taking it one step further, if there are persons on Manus engaging in rape.Are you willing to call for/support their immediate deportation?
Or, do you reserve your moral indignation --as usual--only for Oz/PNG authorities?

PQR, s/b Poirot
(that's the trouble with cut and paste --I'll have to get a lesson from Lexi she's the OLO champ)

Poirot, "Housed in containers....on a tropical island"

Maybe you have never had occasion to look at the booming industry in cube houses from shipping containers. Cyclone proof. Easily relocated. Easily worked on after simple instruction.

Cooling?
Roofing with clearance for airflow, external ceramic paints and sprayed insulation are all alternatives. Solar powered airconditioning could be an additional luxury.

Tres green recycling, surprising you are not up to speed on it..

onthebeach,

No doubt they could be fashioned with adequate insulation to serve the purpose.

I'm not supposing that the Australian authorities are much interested in providing habitable long-term accommodation for refugees on Manus - and certainly not that which would suffice for our own population.

Judging by revelations like this from Salvation Army workers on Nauru:

"We have worked alongside these asylum seekers since the opening of the NRPC when the men were first housed in tents. Brought them pedestal fans when the temperature within their tents soared to over 50 degrees. Used buckets to empty rivers of rainwater when the same temporary accommodation flooded during the wet season."

My opinion is if these men have families in home countries as stated why are they on Nauru having abandoned their family? Fly them back home! If their home country is good enough to leave their families there it is good enough for them. They are not refugees otherwise they would have their families with them.

I have a friend in Austria working among refugees from the Middle East and they have their whole family together.

Dear Poirot,

I've just received various links on this topic
from New Matilda. Here's one that may interest
you seeing as you don't find it difficult to
make sense of things that haven't passed through
the MSM colon. ;-)

You know how I enjoy delivering alternative viewpoints.

http://newmatilda.com/our-contract-with-manus

SPQR is fierce
His teeth can pierce
The skin of Lexi's knee
It serves him right
That, because of his bite
She can't take him seriously.

(Adapted from an early nursery rhyme).

There are refugees and there are more selective refugees. These refugees are coming for the AU refugee conditions and lifestyle. Why else pass through a host of other countries to get here. We are to soft.
The Solomon isl's is on track to be extra storage. Thanks to Abbott's advertising, and a handful of others like the greens.
They can live like their host country.
Tents and shanties, and some luxury containers as well.

@Lexi

And I just thinking out that "Lexi" must stand for:
Leggy, Elegant, Xena-like Individual

Now I'll have to go back and think up less generous combination.

Dear SPQR,

You're a real enigma because you do tend to surprise.
And that's great. Boredom is bad for me.
However I am trying to get a mental picture of you
as well. Are you of Italian ancestry? That would
explain the SPQR (Senatus Populusque Romanus - Senate
and People of Rome. Plus it is the motto for the City of
Rome). Or are you from the UK where London market
trader's stalls have the SPQR signs (Small Profits,
Quick Returns)?

Just curious.

Poirot,

I agree that the temporary housing on Nauru are probably below the standard the middle class economic migrants are used to at home.

Goodness gracious, after investing $10,000 with their (criminal) travel agent they really ought to have had a room like the Sheraton Mirage. Of course had they bought a cheaper airfare they could have had that too.

It matters naught that thousands of Australians manage to exist without airconditioning. Other Aussies are given blankets because life on the streets is cold in July. After the Brisbane floods many people still cannot afford to rebuild their homes and are couch surfing with friends and relatives.

You and Lexi are just indulging in your usual parlour game of sledging Australia and Australians. Have either of you ever written anything positive about Australia, or without a disparaging sting in the tail?

'housing are' should be 'housing is'

Thanks to all for forgiving lapses of editing.

I have made a few predictions here, some have come true.
I will be kind and not name those who said Rudd would never come back.
And those who said if he did it would fail totally.
But hold me to this.
PNG plan will work, within no more than two weeks a continuing transfer of boat people to that place will slow the flow.
I have an interest, can not hide it, just how if this was not to work would an Abbott government stop them.
Remember a basic, Tony Abbott is uninterested in stopping the boats, yet.
And by his actions is trying to see the flow continue.
And some say Kev is a fraud!

....I will be kind and not name those who said Rudd would never come back.

Hold the phone Belly, you said exactly that yourself.

Now I'm going to make a prediction, that being that Kevin Rudd, and labor will not win the election, because I am afraid he has caused too much grief to too many and wasted too much of our money, waste that has seen too many of our own people go without, especially our elderly, as they most certainly didn't work hard only to end up on the scrap heap, victims of wasted opportunities.

The focus is wrongly directed. Some of the people smugglers who helped Jews escape from Nazi occupied Europe were nasty pieces of work. They sometimes murdered and robbed people They stripped them of their assets. etc. However, they were not the main villains. The villain was the Nazi Empire.

At present the main villains are the Taliban oppressing the Hazaras in Afghanistan, the Thais oppressing the Muslims, the Sri Lankans oppressing the Tamils etc. Desperate people trying to flee those monstrous regimes employ people smugglers. There are so many (an estimated 46M) that Australia cannot take them all in. However, Australia getting together with the US, Canada, Brazil and other countries could take them all in. Let the diplomat Kevin Rudd get together with other countries which have signed the refugee convention and take the refugees in in addition to trying to do something about the oppressive gov'ts and groups that cause people to flee.

Thanks for the link, Lexi.

onthebeach,

There's plenty to praise about Australia.

Unfortunately it's not much on display on this forum which seems to abound with the most exquisite xenophobia and a much touted cultural superiority complex.

Still, it's an education coming here.

Lexi,

Don't know if you've read this article....probably, but I'll post it anyway : )

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/youve-been-misled-on-boat-people-here-are-the-facts-20130718-2q5rv.html

The rest of you just talk amongst yourselves.

A very good article Poirot.
I doubt any of the others will believe it though.

They have already been sucked in by the politicians they love to hate, after they heard big, frightening words like 'illegal immigrants' , 'border protection' and 'terrorists', when applied to the asylum seekers arriving on our shores by boats.

Ignorant people have been sucked in by ambitious, greedy politicians who are wanting votes by spooking the public.

I will say what I have said before, several times.
If these 'boat people' have heard about all the previous boats that have sunk and the people who have drowned trying to get to Australia, yet they still risk making the journey, then they must be desperate. Especially if they also bring their families.

Would you risk death by drowning if you were just a so called 'economic refugee', or if you just wanted to get ahead of the queue ?
I know I wouldn't risk myself or my family unless I really was more afraid for my life in the country where I was fleeing from...

In so many ways Kevin Rudd has had his victory already.
We who daily combat the views of many here should know that.
Already he has set the ALP on its long path to reform.
In just about a month moved us years ahead.
Hidden proof exists for that claim, lets wait till after the election to talk of them.
Even if we are beaten, a distinct possibility, we won by his return , much more than a dozen seats, ones we keep.
IF ONLY yes if others could see the 1975 election and events leading up to it.
They live again, powerful men , media owners in it for profit and power, are contaminating the news note the trash talk about PNG plan.
But note too if he won, Abbott,s sabotage of school reform PNG plan many things, we this country, will be poorer for it.
In the cold light of day Abbott is a rag doll, power and privileged has their hands inside him.
Trying to dump Labor, and sell us the view this strange little man is other than a fool.

@ Suse

Re: Fantasy No 201 - People do not risk their live for economic advancement

People ALL OVER THE WORLD risk their lives for economic advancement --and even for mere survival --EVERYDAY.

If you haven't met such people perhaps you need to venture a bit further afield --and read a bit more widely.

Dear Poirot,

Excellent link. Thank You.

Julian Burnside is a regular contributor to
New Matilda. He's a Barrister and a Human Rights
activist and always deals with well researched
facts. However Shadow Minister continues to
slam publications like New Matilda (regularly)
despite the fact that coontributers of the calibre
of Burnside support it without reservation.

As you so aptly put it - there are many on this
forum who simply cannot tolerate anything that
hasn't gone through the MSM colon. (Love that
description).

Still we must continue to try to
broaden their narrow vistas - even though we'll
get accused (regularly) as being "un-Australian."
And sledging Asutralian people (WTF).
What they don't get is that it's not "un-Australian"
to have a different opinion and we're not against people
or country, we're against certain
policies - not people.

Abbott has now got ideas of militarizing the boaters problem now. He has not only got PNG offside now it's Indonesia as well.

@ Lexi,

<<Julian Burnside ... always deals with well researched facts>>

ROFLAO

Lexi, really, truly, sincerely, tell me: are you a professional comedian?

___________________________________

@ Doog

Here doogy, hey why are always yapping at Abbott?
We have common enemies here (like Lexi) skitch her boy!

SPQR,

You might be interested in Abbott's campaign poster earmarked for the final week of the election.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Zlc12g6TJYI/SfinRW4J_2I/AAAAAAAAAhU/ZfVV1KSx1oI/s400/pugwash.gif

Also a big fat denial from General David Hurley that he provided advice or recommendations to Abbott.

http://news.defence.gov.au/2013/07/25/a-statement-from-the-chief-of-the-defence-force-2/

Belly,

It must pain you to see Kevin Dudd's policies on the run start to unravel almost immediately. Dudd's PNG solution is starting to look awfully like Juliar's East Timor solution.

Notably the defence force has now indicated that it will execute the tow back policy.

Yes doog, of cause we can always just sit back, assist them with their invasion and wait until they turn up armed.

Someone has to stamp some authority on this matter once and for all, because let's face it, labor prefer to talk about the problem sitting around sipping tea face to face.

The message should be loud and clear, stop the boats leaving your shores, or we will.

The time for talk is over.

SM,

I jut read a tweet which sums it up beautifully, re the Opposition playing catch-up to Rudd's putrid idea.

"Fair dinkum, if the ALP proposed eating asylum seekers as a solution, the LNP would publish a cookbook."

Spot on!

SM, rehctub,

So neither of you have a problem with Admiral Abbott attempting to trample the military chain of command in order to wrench votes off Mr Rudd?

SM,

Actually the Chief of the Defence Force, General David
Hurley has downplayed tow backs.

According to The Australian newspaper, the Chief of the
Defence Force, General David Hurley, has not provided
advice, or recommendations to Opposition Leader Mr Tony
Abbott with respect to the Coalition policy on asylum
seeker issues, the General's office said in a statement.

Dear SPQR,

Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Cry and they pay to watch.

"A senior military officer with powers to bypass normal Defence Force command structures would be put in charge of combating people smugglers and securing Australia's borders under a future Coalition government."
(ABC news)

You don't reckon there would need to be a change to the Defence Act to have a military officer in charge who is not under the command of the CDF?

Who's coming up with the dud plans now?

Lexi,

Here's the press release on Hurley from Defence.

http://news.defence.gov.au/2013/07/25/a-statement-from-the-chief-of-the-defence-force-2/

Going going gone!

Better call that election soon Mr. Rudd, your hubris could reduce the ALP to a Gillard.

Abbott has shortened to $1.25 and Rudd has gone out to $3.75. Working well ? Not.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link.

Dear spindoc,

Wishful thinking is great but its
results on election day that really matter.

Rudd is done for. He did try but the Fifth Column in his own ranks will see him defeated.

Rudd is also confronted by the legions of angry advocates and professionals who have their snouts into the trough of taxpayers money. The victim industry turns over hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money annually and they are not going to be denied their easy sources of income. For starters, there is an over-supply of lawyers and they have to earn their big Beamers and S65AMG Mercedes somewhere.

How much coast line did you say Indonesia has. How many boats we got. Abbott has really spruked himself now. There is already a two star general in charge. He wants a three. Would be nice to tell the head man about it first. Won't be impressed getting it from a retired general.

Shadow Minister " Notably the defence force has now indicated that it will execute the tow back policy."

Really?
I wonder will that work better than when the large ships last 'escorted' an asylum seeker boat to Christmas Island, and it capsized, drowning 4 of them I believe?
A large scale rescue mission then ensued, causing the ships sailors much danger, not to mention all the asylum seekers milling about in the rough seas.

They weren't even being towed.

Imagine some of those old fishing boats full of asylum seekers being towed behind the big navy ships?
How long would they stay afloat?

Or is that not a problem for you?

There are people who would have voted Labor just on this issue alone,

I reckon there is a good chance many of them will now vote Green.

The vast majority of those that want the boats stopped will still vote LNP, with the exception of Belly, of course.

I also wonder about how the carbon tax changes will effect the warmists that thought the carbon tax was a good thing. Will they now vote Green as well?

Belly, your prediction of the Greens being wiped out may not come to pass now.

I see it as Rudd changing tack on these issues (temporary) until the election, just to gain a few votes. Yes he is that superficial.

Remember he did guarantee not to lurch to the right on the illegals and that global warming was the greatest moral challenge of our time.

Banjo the greens will be wiped out.
Not probably in this election.
Labor is in with a chance and only that.
But it must and will be wary of the poison chalice the greens are.
In truth we both should put them last, even if a seat or two is lost.
No doubt another marginalizing group intent on wasting any power they get will come.
Hope we are brave enough to confront them.
*ONE VOTE ONE VALUE AND ABOLISH EVERY UPPER HOUSE DOES IT FOR ME.
Abbott,s brain explosion send in the troops stuff is blindingly silly.
Within ten years written history excepted by most, will highlight his trying to keep the boats coming.
Abbott , even if he wins is history his party is hiding deep devisions over him now.

Poirot, itnhas nothing to do with winning votes,as Mr Rudd has that agenda, rather, from Mr Abbotts prospective, it's about stopping the boats, that's it.

....Wishful thinking is great but its
results on election day that really matter.

Yes, best you keep that in mind Lexi.

Yes, Belly, put the Greens last. You must not give people a chance to choose anybody but bankrupt Labor and bankrupt Liberals. You must not give people an alternative. It must be one of the two humpty-dumptys.

Davidf it is true that my words hurt folk I like.
And mate from your persona here I like you.
I respect Paul 1405 and think in person we would get on.
Dave here is the place it gets hard.
Greens came in to being on the back of the Franklin Dam, Brown had built a profile but Hawk gave him that victory.
Not long after it was clear,* to me*a rib was torn from my party.
Greens took our voters and?
Used them like a rag doll, miss using any power they had gained to do nothing much other than harm Labor *and the community in general*
Today two women, who on the evidence dislike one another intensely, control your party.
And its fall.
Bloke average Aussie is still out there, some place he/she is sick of minority's THEIVEING power in upper houses.
Over ruling their stated views in electing party,s from the two main sides and seeing them stalled by quite mad minority's.
I offer and invite a look at NSW after a landslide my party had a near death here.
Unlike Queensland we have an upper house.
*Now if this is rude let it be known it is from my heart!
A few idiots! nothing less! stop legislation getting past the upper house *until their wonky bribery demands are met.
Christian right, shooters party ning nongs!
So in the end on balence I consider my views an act in favor of Democracy,never vote greens or minor party,s *it just encourages them*

....Yes, Belly, put the Greens last. You must not give people a chance to choose anybody but bankrupt Labor and bankrupt Liberals. You must not give people an alternative. It must be one of the two humpty-dumptys.

No David, there are several options, but the greens are just poison to our economy and future.

A prime example is how Bob Erwin is heading the campaign to shut down the ports, a disguise for shutting down the mines, yet, at the same time he is no doubt a high user of energy at Australian Zoo and, should his customers decide that it is irresponsible to travel on our roads, some 80 km from the CBD, just to visit a zoo , he would no doubt increase advertising in an effort to restore numbers, again generating more energy use from advertisers and the like.

Put simply, they (the greens) are hypocrite, as on the ome hand they want/enjoy the benefits of our resourse rich nation, while on the other hand they want our economy driving mines shut.

They want their cake, and wish to eat it as well.

As our global population approaches 9 billion, we may well see the day come when someone else decides to mine our resources, in a hostile manner, amd domt laugh, as this day may be closer than we think, especially given our current costs of doing business.

The greens have been given more power and have showed their real agenda.

They are dead in the water, as step one is to get rid of this labor/green government, step two is a DD election to clean out the senate.

May I suggest you enjoy your fame while you have the chance because your days are numbered, or at least I hope so because the greens are poison.

Dear Belly,

That's right. You repeat. Don't give people an alternative. Screw the workers! Let jobs turn into McJobs with contract workers having little job security. Screw the environment! Under Gillard Burke has created national parks at sea which will give fish stocks a chance to revive so the sea can help feed us. So you replace her with a show pony who hasn't a clue about environmental capacity or he wouldn't be calling for a 'big' Australia. The show pony is difficult to work with so parliamentarians got rid of him, but for some reason he is popular. He can make the grand gesture and write great essays for The Monthly so bring the incompetent back and maybe win an election or don't get beaten as badly. The process of rot that destroyed job security under Keating and Hawke by economic rationalism must continue. The Party must stay in power or lose as little power as possible, but Australia and its environment along with its working people can go straight go hell. At all costs don't give people a choice.

Minor parties exist to give people a choice. All political parties, if on the stage long enough, become dinosaurs filled with self-serving and corrupt individuals who are in it for their personal gain. Sometimes they can reform. Under Franklin Roosevelt the US Democrats did it. More often they disappear as the Whigs did. Your policy is KEEP THE DINOSAURS! DON'T ALLOW AN ALTERNATIVE!

Worry about boat people instead of real issues like jobs and the environment. You probably were concerned with real issues once. Now your issue is: KEEP THE DINOSAUR!

rehctub wrote: Put simply, they (the greens) are hypocrite, as on the ome [sic] hand they want/enjoy the benefits of our resourse rich nation, while on the other hand they want our economy driving mines shut.

As it often happens, when things are put simply they are put wrong.

Greens want an Australia that is livable for the next generation. Fracking has been banned by both France and Bulgaria. The French and Bulgarians do not want their water table poisoned. They want their farmers able to continue to produce food. In Queensland worked out mines have left lakes which are loaded with cyanide from mine tailings. They were supposed to be cleaned up but Queensland gov'ts have neither made them clean up nor cleaned up the area themselves. Greens do not want the 'benefit' of mines that poison the land. The Greens are not poison as you label them. They do not want Australia subjected to the real poison of industrial and agricultural operations that destroy the environment. They do not want luxury in the present at the cost of poverty and starvation in the future.

Your blather shows that you apparently don't have the least concept of what the Greens are about. You probably have a good brain. Brand new with little signs of use.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2013/04/08/3729644.htm tells how our seas are changing. Under Gillard National Parks were set up to save the seas around Australia. So Labor replaced her with a show pony who competes with the rottweiler in a race to the bottom.

When land and sea are polluted and barren will you eat your money?

That's what it's about.

To the headless chooks who start these threads attacking dear old Kev, don't PANIC. The alternative, the three ring circus known as The Coalition is being lead by the mad monk himself, Tony Boloney, and, an election is looming. On second thoughts, chooks, PANIOC!

After yet another 13 people killed by Rudd's boat policy, (cheered on by those in the lunatic asylum called the green party) there seems to be no let up in the stream of boats. Obviously the smugglers recognise the Dudd's incompetence and recognise that Dudd is more likely to fall pregnant than implement a successful policy.

SM, it is typical of you with comments like "After yet another 13 people killed by Rudd's boat policy, (cheered on by those in the lunatic asylum called the green party)" No one is more appalled by the deaths of innocent men, woman and children at sea in what are terrible circumstances than members of The Greens.
The truth is, you the bigoted raciest has nothing but contempt for people seeking asylum. You care naught for these people, to you they are non whites of no economic value, and their lives are expendable in the context of political advantage for your conservative side of politics. You rejoice in their deaths seeing their lost lives as another vote winner for Abbott. Shame on you, fortunately not all members of the Liberal Party are tared with the same brush.

Belly,

If you think that first past the post with no preferences is a great idea, take a look at the US. Your proposal would make it impossible for a third party to get its candidates elected, as is the intention. It takes time to build support, and until the support becomes very large, a vote for such a party would be wasted, so the temptation exists to vote for the major party that is perceived as the lesser evil.

In such a system, the big corporations end up owning both major parties, because there is really no alternative, with each of them throwing out a few crumbs to the groups that support them. Change can only come through violence, through making the elite afraid for their lives as well as their property.

For an example of such a thing, you might consider how the first era of globalisation was shut down in the US after World War I, amid violent labour disputes, bloody race riots, which often started with conflict between American blacks and the immigrants who were displacing them from their jobs, and Anarchist bombings, with individual politicians, high government officials, and business leaders targeted for assassination.

http://archive.archaeology.org/1201/features/blair_mountain_coal_activism_west_virginia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_deed

Paul,

There is another thread that claims that the moment left wing activist start hurling the terms racist, bigot etc, you know they have no facts to support their views. I know that I have you rattled when you resort to unfounded abuse. Firstly I have neither said anything that is racist, nor anything to indicate that I am white. Earlier you claimed that I was fundamentalist catholic.

I guess it is up to the racist bigots of this world to stop people dying at sea, and leave the Greens to do stuff all except complain about everything. Under Howards heartless pacific solution, no boat people were drowning and in 2007 only 4 people were in detention.

Kevin Dudd, can come up with 4 smart new ideas before breakfast, and stuff up each one by lunch. The coalition is by comparison very boring, relying on tried and tested policies that work.

Divergence yes I am aware of that and for that reason stand by my thoughts.
Today I itched for a phone.
Moving a campaign office from one to another saw me caught short.
A green supporter rang in #saying our current system is unfair#
She figures as she votes but is not represented [not enough votes]has no representation it is wait for it!
Un Democratic!
Another woman supported her view what madness!
America is all the bettor for having fewer choices that lead, *see NSW to less Democracy*
To think and know, like it or not rude or crude,*for every green voters 6 or7 exist who want them gone, who truly hate them.
Why would majoritys want to be sidelined by a few mad small, anti majority party,s.
Labor or Liberals voters should if they cherish true Democracy never let a single vote slip to minority's ever.

Belly,

I am not a fan of the Greens (at least at the Federal level) for a number of reasons, but I don't think that the people who vote for them should be disenfranchised. If they are as bad as you say, there is nothing to stop the major parties from putting the Greens last in their lists of preferences. If they choose to preference the Greens over each other, then they have no one to blame but themselves when Greens are elected.

Similarly, the Greens can do nothing in Parliament unless one of the major parties is willing to vote with them. Why do you blame the Greens alone for irresponsible behavior and not the party that provided a majority of the votes for it?

The US system (first past the post, no preferences) is profoundly corrupt. Why would you want it here? In addition, what you are proposing eliminates checks and balances. The Liberals were able to introduce Work Choices when they were in government because they had control of the Senate. Do we really want to lurch from one abuse of power to another? The good guys won't always be elected.

Sorry David F, but I have double checked my post and can't see any mention of fraking.

I did mention that Bob Erwin, ambasitor for the greens is a hypocrit, as one the one hand he wants our mines/ports closed, while on the other his business feeds from the very energy, supplied by the very mines he is trying to shut down.

Now that I have put you back on task, would you care to readdress my post, or, will you simply divert again?

rehctub:

Bob Irwin is not & has not been connected with Australia Zoo recently. His daughter-in-law has shut him out since his son died. However, you condemned all the Greens as hypocrites and poison. You really don't have a clue what they want or what they are about. They have as a goal to develop a sustainable Australia which is not dependent on processes which will destroy the future.

I repeat - when the land and sea are poisoned will you eat money?

David f, you say.......They have as a goal to develop a sustainable Australia which is not dependent on processes which will destroy the future.

Simply tell me How!

You see, we have just come through the biggest mining boom our nation has experienced and, with the assistance of the greens, (and their reckless open door asylum policy), labor, have managed to rack up some $400 billion of debt in under six years.

So, as YOUR sustainable future obviously involves dramatic reductions in mining, tell me how you propose we achieve this dream of a sustainable future, without starving the present generations?

Now I will ask you another question.

Do you drive a car, do you use electricity supplied by the grid, is your computer running off grid supply and do you buy your foods, or a portion of them from a shop.

Now if you answer yes to one, or all of the above, then you are guilty of supporting the very cause you are trying to shut down.

Finally, as for my statement of the greens being poison, let's just wait and see what the voters think, as it's my bet thatbthe greens will be wipped out at the forthcoming election.

Let's see who's right!

Divergence we may just have to disagree on this one.
It remains my view voters who voted for one of the main party,s are always going to be unhappy with minority,s controlling not the party of choice.
No way this, rude or not it remains my view, informed folk on both sides saw *blackmail* used by those small party.s in both the Federal Parliament and the NSW one.
And let us look closer at first the greens, yes they helped Labor pass legislation.
But too stopped true action on some very important things.
Greens, best votes effort 12%, as must if not more than any party, can and should be held to account for the deaths at sea.
Is Democracy about ensuring the few are represented? or about the will of the most.
Post election 2013 the upper house may have members from 3 small party,s.
And together those could rule against the will of the majority, that is undemocratic

SM, I took exception to your comment that members of The Greens such as myself would in some way be cheering the deaths of innocent men, women and children at sea under horrific circumstances. Yes, I called you a "bigoted raciest" as I have never seen you post one word of compassion for asylum seekers.
Regardless of the legality of the situation and regardless of the political clap trap that is being thrown around, at the end of the day these people are our fellow human beings with the same feelings and emotions as us, who through circumstance which they have no control over have been put into terrible situations. You and others can judge these people all you like, look at them, look at their children and then maybe you might understand that put into the same situation under the same circumstances you may act in the very same way, I know I would.

Paul I don't know what planet you inhabit, but if you actually believe this garbage you spout about illegal boat people, you sure can't live on this one.

All those knocking the US first past the post electoral system seem to be studiously avoiding the fact that it is the same system that is used in the UK.

The UK has 4 parties in parliament, with the smallest rapidly growing. They are growing so quickly they have recently won some county councils. First past the post doesn't prevent parties with some real policies making progress.

You only have to look to Tasmania & watch the slow motion train wreck that the state is, to see what happens when you let the ratbag fringe dwellers into the hen house proper.

If the fringe dwellers want to get into the lower house, they will have to come out of fairy land, & produce some policies that real people can see as viable. Then & only then, & provided they got rid of those with fairy wings, could they expect sensible folk to vote for them.

Turnbull is in the wings, and very capable of stepping in. A far better choice than Abbott will ever be.
Abbott' s boat policy went down like a duck on opening morning.
What do you expect when you start playing with 3 and 4 star rankings, let alone their authority.
Taking advice from a retired officer was not good as he was known as a radical, and it was best for him to retire.
There is talk going on, as you can see Abbott is scrambling and getting nowhere.

Dear Rehctub,

You wrote: Simply tell me How!

There are sustainable processes. We can farm so that the land is not destroyed by using it wisely in rotating crops, not destroying aquifers, etc. We can fish sustainably by putting aside no fishing zones, not trawling, limiting catches, etc. We cannot mine sustainably. However, even in mining we can try to limit the damage. In Queensland we could construct rail lines to the Gulf of Carpentaria rather than increasing shipments through the ports next to the reef as Campbell Newman wants to do.

You wrote: Do you drive a car, do you use electricity supplied by the grid, is your computer running off grid supply and do you buy your foods, or a portion of them from a shop.

I cannot change the fact we get energy from non-renewable resources and do not have public transport where I live. That requires group action to get such alternatives. I support such group action. We try to limit our footprint. Some weeks we do not have trash for the garbos. All organic wastes go to our compost. We have no air conditioning or central heating. We have solar hot water.

We will not see who’s right by whether the Greens get votes or not. We will see who’s right by what is happening & will happen to Australia in the future if we continue to disregard what is happening to our environment in the present.

There are three main challenges to the environment as I see it:

Uncontrolled population growth. In that Abbott and Rudd are both unconcerned with the problem.

Destruction of the producing capacity of land and sea Here there is a difference. Tony Burke under Gillard set aside ocean national parks which will be areas where fish populations can regenerate and will act to save the capacity of the oceans. I assume Abbott would get rid of them. That is the issue which decides which party I preference.

Climate change: Rudd announced this as the ‘moral challenge of the age’ and then did little or nothing. Abbott called it ‘crap’

rehctub wrote:

Finally, as for my statement of the greens being poison, let's just wait and see what the voters think, as it's my bet thatbthe greens will be wipped out at the forthcoming election.

Let's see who's right!

Dear rehctub,

I am not predicting a large Green vote. I predict that the strategy of the two major parties will be successful. People will ignore the big issue which is the destruction of our environment, our economic base and our base of life, by concentration on such diversions as the boat people. The real poison to the future of Australia are the two major parties which will be successful in persuading the people of Australia to swallow their poison.

You are probably right. In fact I agree with you on the size of the Green vote. The people of Australia will continue to accept the destruction of this beautiful country and the seas around it.

Even though the two major parties will continue to ignore the main issue and get re-elected it will not change what will happen. Unfortunately, the Greens will be proven to have seen the problem when it will be much harder or even impossible to do much about it.

The old standbys of disease, famine and conflict will continue to solve the problem of overpopulation. However, the capacity of land and sea to sustain us will not be restored in the foreseeable future. The species that are going extinct in the sixth great extinction which is going on now will be extinct forever.

Paul1405, if these people were in fact genuine refugees, as you quite clearly believe, they would be so breatful to have ANYWHERE to live so long as the threat of death was taken away.

They are obviously not, as if they were, they would not be burning the safe havens WE have supplied.

David f, rotational farming posses it's own negative effect on climate, as the movement of machinery from paddock to paddock is not only cost negative, it's also non productive.

I do however agree with you on rail.

I work and live most of my time in a QLD mining town, which is also the main feeder road for the channel country, and the number of B-doubles traveling empty is mind blowing.

It's just a pity Anna decided it best we sell our rail off, as I am all for increase rail, run off coal seam gas generated electricity.

But, at the end of the day, our biggest challenge for any reform is our cost of doing business.

rehctub,

Why are the boats still coming when these people are now aware they will be sent to PNG.

Egad!....do yer think they really might be desperate?

Dear rehctub,

Of course one can find better ways to solve problems as to farming and other practices. As far as costs go the costs of dealing with environmental problems is going to increase. Those costs cannot be ignored when the cost of doing nothing gets big enough. Species that become extinct cannot be brought back. Land and sea that are degraded will take millennia to recover.

Actually I am bothered by the fact that the Greens do not concentrate on the environment more and concern themselves with other matters too much. However they are still way better than the Lib/Labs. Katter recognises the threat of fracking. I will probably place him in second place on my ballot.

Rectub doesn't understand that in depth type of situations. You have to talk a little slower. All renewable generated power is under no output restrictions, it's up to the coal fired generators to regulate supply and demand, that is why our co2 omissions are falling. The more renewable s coming on line the greater co2 savings. The system is working.
Another large sized solar generator came online recently at Mildura.
The more houses with solar on the roof the more co2 savings.

Paul I too said and believe the greens *as much if not more hold the blame for the deaths at sea*
Shared with the soft left legal fools who took government to court.
See your party could have acted positively, passed Labors Malaysian solution.
But by using the power they held got far more migrants from even Indonesia, in return for ending the boats.
To not use that power from a voting base of 12 percent, and by the way never to be that figure again, is folly.
To be insulted by truth is a strange reaction.
Your party in my view, is a party willing to say anything.
But do nothing.
From that sad little base your team have achieved little, and seem to glorify them selves in the truth, most Australians never want other than the death of your team.
It is not a personal thing Paul.
It is a reflection of the true thoughts of the average person on our streets.

Abbott's electability is continually getting worse, they must make a move or face the voters with a scumbag as their choice of leader.
The people have said 'ho hum' to Abbott's latest plan that already exists.
He seriously needs some ammunition or Turnbull will grab to ball and head for goal.

Poirot,
You said, "Why are the boats still coming when these people are now aware they will be sent to PNG.

Egad!....do yer think they really might be desperate?"

Nuh, They know Kev is a bull artist, even if he wins the election he will change tack again, as he has done before. They called his bluff in the Oceanic Viking, remember, and in 2007 he said he would tow them back. How many current Labor MPs are ther that were scathing of the Pacific solution, now support it. Why would anyone believe Labor.

P,

There is no excuse for your childish and unfounded insults. You have called me and others Nazis, fascists, fundamentalist Catholics, etc simply for not agreeing with your views.

That the greens were cheering on Dudd when he demolished the functioning pacific solution, and continued to bleat whenever anything was done to try and dis incentivise the human trafficking makes the Greens morally responsible in part for the deaths at sea.

Until the Greens come up with a workable alternative, sitting on the fence whinging about everything anyone else does just highlights the greens as the no hopers they have always been.

Either lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Shadow Minister,

"There is no excuse for your childish and unfounded insults. You have called me and others Nazis, fascists, fundamentalist Catholics, etc simply for not agreeing with your views."

Please provide a link to the posts where I have called you and others "Nazis, fascists, fundamentalist Catholics, etc".

You're quite prone to insulting others yourself SM.

I'll ask again, in case you forget.

Please provide a link to the posts where I have called you and others "Nazis, fascists, fundamentalist Catholics, etc".

(no wonder you chose the tag "Shadow Minister". You're as full of hypocrisy as most politicians. You would find it difficult to function on this forum without recourse to childish and unfounded insults - as in Kredit Rudd, Krudd, Dudd, Juliar, Whine, etc. In fact, it's quite stunning how nursery-school savvy are your "witty ripostes")

Talk about the pot calling the kettle childish!

P,

Sorry wrong P, I meant Paul1405. I apologize for the typo.

I know it is thin ice I stand on.
And too that SM is waiting for my fall.
Too that once we know the date the true dirty politics will begin.
But at the risk of being forced one day to eat these words.
I think Tony Abbott has already lost his job.
As PM or leader of the opposition he has had bad advice, he should turn on his advisers, one may come from my camp.
What worked against Gillard has zero chance against Rudd.
Feeble, trying to say Rudd is a con artist while Abbott is around.

Tut, tut, SM I call it as I see it, I called you a bigoted raciest for this comment;
"After yet another 13 people killed by Rudd's boat policy, (cheered on by those in the lunatic asylum called the green party)"
I took your comment as The Greens were cheering 13 people killed, which includes me. You are a typical conservative, believing you are born to rule and have a monopoly on what is right and wrong. Conservatives have no qualms about supporting such things as wars etc that see millions of innocent people die, but heaven forbid if you call them on it and insult them. As I said tut tut.
If you want to avoid insults I suggest a move to the forum "Flower Arranging for Beginner" or some such benign little group.

Actually Paul,

The forum rules specifically rules out the boorish name calling that you practice, and if you were reported, you would be banned. So if you wish to move to the flower arranging blog with the pompous effetes from the greens then feel free to continue.

I would also suggest you consult a dictionary and read the definition of bigot and racist. Calling out the greens for being complicit in the deaths of thousands is not being a bigot unless you consider the greens a threatened minority group, and I have never said anything racist.

This forum is not for delicate flowers who can't take a criticism without childish name calling.

Point taken, SM...regarding prior post.

I'll just add that contributors up and down this forum sometimes resort to name calling - some more often than others.

One poster around here delights in just about every third post in calling his opponents "morons".

I haven't noted you pulling him up for that behaviour - but then again, he's more likely to support your side of the argument.

P,

Obviously not being a forum policeman I react more to those that abuse me than others. But I don't condone abuse and have occasionally reported cases of abuse from both sides.

As far as insults, name calling is generally ineffective. It is far more satisfying to puncture someone's prejudices, especially painful is the unpalatable truth.

And I am getting off Scott free.
My from the heart comments about the greens equaled in my view SM s.
Hard however not to insult some things by just telling the truth.
See? even that last line looks like satire but honestly is not.
Very proud Kev and she who must be obeyed went in to danger to thank our true heroes.

Dear Belly,

You wrote: "My from the heart comments about the greens equaled in my view SM s."

Both you and SM agree that there should be no alternative to tweedledum and tweedledee. Nothing new there.

I think all of us on olo whatever our viewpoint make comments from the heart. However, if two people with opposing views both speak from the heart one of them is still wrong. Sincerity is no guarantee of being right. In fact I think that implicitly both major parties share the same philosophy in the words of the great W. C. Fields, "Never give a sucker an even break."

Belly, you often refer to me as the "Naked Morris Dancer" I once went to a British Folk Festival and what did I see, Morris Dancers (wearing white outfits, like dresses but they were men with sticks), and if I was to do their strange form of dancing naked then it truly would be insulting, not to me, but to them. None of the following are yours, The Little Green Pixie, I don't think that was you or Watermelon or shock horror Communist, or the one I really didn't like was Starlin Lover, why because I though Uncle Joe was ugly.
SM I will apologise for the comment "bigoted raciest" as it offended you. I do not feel I am a "lunatic" nor do I feel I am in a "lunatic asylum" because I am a member of The Greens Party, but since I didn't find those comments insulting, I do not require an apology.

If you blokes can't keep personalities out of the debate I think someone should complain and you all can keep out. You know some of us would like to hear the issues without abuse and intimidation.
Thank you

Chris there is no "war" here. Belly knows I always find his Naked Morris Dancer description a real hoot, it was funny when I first read it, and its still funny, its not insulting. SM's comments are par for the course and not insulting to me. I find it hard to be insulted by anonymous posts by anonymous people, persons, computers or who ever or what ever post this stuff. As Kermit said "its not easy being Green." or Blue or Red or whatever ones political persuasion is. Its even more difficult if you post it for all the world to read.
Peace.

Chrisgaff1.000 take the coppers suit off!
How is it that truly sick comments come from red necks here and no one complains?
Paul and Davidf if my comments are rude tell me but let the one moderator rule not every one.
How can any single person who is against the greens, in all honesty *at least 8.7 percent of the population* of this country not insult by just telling a truth!
Paul and I are at one level mates we niggle each other.
Davidf is a gentle man.
He holds views I can never share.
But I hold him a man in his 80s I think, in high regard.
First time ChrisGaff 1000 and I ever clashed but why old mate not just skip over my contributions?
Raw pain and fear from conservatives seeing some strange thoughts here.
Paul care to comment on my view your 12 percent of the votes has given your party far too much power over folk who are repelled by
them?
NO! we can not gloss over the truth, a party disliked right past that to hated, all the range of dislike, is or was controlling our federal government, Paul your history was fighting against such injustice.
Morris dancers look silly, to me, my remembering fools seen dancing naked under a full moon saw me put the two together.

Paul,

You still don't get it. There is a difference between an implied insult and direct abuse. The first is witty banter, the second is simply boorish.

For example if I said that the green's support of gay marriage is probably for their own consumption. That would be an implied insult. If I said Paul you are a faggot. That would be abuse. Especially as I have no knowledge of you personal status, which is exactly the way you behaved.

I will accept your apology, and look forward to more carefully crafted insults rather than a hissy fit.

Yes, Paul,

As the well-mannered, Shadow Minister has so carefully pointed out in his template "middle-class faux gentility", one must strive around here to insult others in a covert and sophisticated manner.

As Oscar Wilde wrote: "A gentleman is one who never hurt's anyone's feelings unintentionally."

(A little more wit wouldn't go astray - but you can't have everything)

Dear Shadow Minister,

I disagree. An implied insult may be witty banter or it may also be simply abuse. It also depends how witty it is, who is saying it, who it is said to and the spirit in which it is said.

We have in Australia anti-vilification legislation. Such legislation forbids crude racist sentiments but allows the more polite racist to spout his or her sentiments. I oppose such legislation as I think it is an unreasonable restriction on speech. That does not mean that I find the expression of crude or polite racism acceptable merely that it should not be a legal matter.

I am confident that you can tell when an implied insult is not merely witty banter. If you have a case an implied or overt insult is unnecessary. If you don't have a case an implied or overt insult won't make it for you.

Pollyanna.

Davidf,

Firstly, Belly and I don't agree that there should be no alternative to the two main parties, just that the greens aren't one.

Secondly, on OLO, name calling and direct accusations are considered abuse, but implied or oblique insults are not. Going outside this forum, the definition of abuse can be calibrated anywhere from physical beating to an unintended interpretation of an otherwise innocent comment.

As for the AVL, I agree that it runs counter to the principle of free speech and also abhor overt or less overt racism.

Dear SM,

I can try not to make implied, oblique or open insults myself although it is easy to succumb to that. I am sure I have done it but will try to do it no more. As far as you are concerned you can and will do what you like. Just wanted to post how I felt about the matter.

Semantics provides a impermeable mask of identity and a impenetrable shield of indifference and you lot are the craft masters of it all.

Why thank you.

ChrisGaff1000 , no way round it I like the persona I have seen from you here.
Fail to understand, or even try, to see what drove that last comment.
See we nearly know one another here.
We say [apparently this irks you, what we think].
And yes even our worst combatants, say me and Rechtub, could enjoy each others company.
Paul is a mate, and if he promised not to call me comrade, I would let him buy me a beer.
SM has a valid point, us here in the basement, the forum, are well behaved in comparison with many other sites.
Do you believe in free speech? or should we line up north Korea style chanting the party,s mindless line and dressed one like the other.
Look at any time of the day, at those active here.
You will find we are so very different and just maybe that is what brings us.
As you past job saw you learn some things, it too may have seen you change, it can be seen in some Police, a local member of Parliament 20 years ago was shocked as he drove past us at a fatal smash.
Not by the death and trauma, but by the young Cop, running towards him.
*Shouting stop that scumbag*
He is on the Mobile phone.
That National party member was indeed on his phone.
A road smash had killed his wife,he after stopping told us he was ringing the roads Minister, to demand a fix for that death spot.
He has passed on no friend but respected, a man who was far from a scum bag.