With Kevin Rudd suggesting he will axe the carbon tax, in doing so he has actually admitted that the tax added 7.5% to household power bills.

So what I would like to know is how come labor defended the tax saying it would only add 0.7% to power, when it actually added over ten times that amount.

How can they get these things so wrong.

Butch,
That is easy. They lie. They know no other way.

Spin, lies and deceit are natural to the current government.

Just one week before the event, Rudd said there were no circumstances in which he would challenge for the PMs job.

A 7.5 % electricity cost increase more than compensated for by the
increase in tax free allowance.
I am better off.
Only the wasters and large users of electrical energy will pay
more.
Tough luck.

rehctub,

Don't know where you got your 0.7% from.

Labor projected a 10% rise in the cost of electricity owing to the carbon tax.

http://theconversation.com/plain-speaking-on-the-carbon-tax-and-electricity-prices-8148

Being that it's come in at 7.5%, that's considerably under that which the compensation caters for.

Of course, partisan views do attempt to skew the reality of the situation, as this embarrassing example for Tony Abbott did some time ago,(note the 10% or less figure mentioned again)

"The Opposition knows that the increase around the country has been what was predicted - 10 per cent or less."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-10/abbott-caught-out-on-use-of-pensioner27s-power-bill/4305908

You ask? "How can they get these things so wrong."

Answer - They didn't.

If anything, they over-estimated the rise.

10% was the estimated rise, so lets not panic you are better off than you thought, shooting from the hip, gets you into trouble.

Gday Rechtub.
Are you aware Labor told us in Parliament, question time, about 100 times the cost was 10%
While we are here what is the costs of Abbotts plans?

Butch, that figure of yours 0.7% is as dodgy as the scales in your shop when it comes to calculating figures. The government clearly said 10%, and compensation was based on 10% so as it has only added 7.5% to electricity bills and since compensation was calculated at 10%, the average consumer is better off.
I'm not opposed to an ETS as proposed by Labor, but your man Abbott wants to totally remove any kind of disincentive for the big polluters such as a tax or ETS. Rudd admits there will be a budgetary impact from moving early to an ETS, which is going to be hard to plug. Abbotts total removal will see a huge shortfall in revenus, how is he going to fund that? What is the conservatives plan to deal with climate change, the laughable Abbotts Green Army.

I'll just add, that recently I watched Abbott spruiking that not only was he going to remove the carbon tax, but he was also going to leave the compensation in place.

Where's the logic in that?

The only "logic" in compensating people for something that is no longer happening, is that you get to use it as a vote-buying mechanism....one which, in the event of the Libs being elected, would have turned into a "non-core" promise, I'm sure.

So now we have Abbott promising to remove the carbon tax altogether and Rudd moving to abolish it and implement some far weaker ETS, which big business is supporting…. which can only mean one thing: it is indeed far weaker!

Wonderful. Just when we really need our leaders to implement policies to steer us away from our utter dependence on fossil fuels, and to do it much more effectively than the carbon tax has done to date, we get a competition to see who can take us the farthest backwards!

rechtub's forecast 0.7% figure related to an increase in the CPI, of which power costs is only a component. I think the actual CPI increase was 0.6%

The compensatory tax cuts will have to be paid for somehow if they are not fully or partially withdrawn while the cost of export industry assistance measures will reduce under an ETS. Politically, I can't see the $18000 tax free threshold being taken back, or at least I hope it won't, as this has been a boon to low-income people including students who do not qualify for living assistance (ridiculously, they were being taxed to pay for students who did qualify)

Abbott the Mad Monk is morphed into Abbott the Drunken Sailor. He will promise the moon and stars to win votes. What Abbott wont say is where the "savings" will come from. If the conservatives win power then they will wheel out their usual line of "thing are far worse than we thought" then the cuts will start, not for the big end of town, profits must be protected at all cost, but aimed squarely at the workers, the poor and the disadvantaged in society.

Here we go again;
>Abbott the Mad Monk is morphed into Abbott the Drunken Sailor.

Just waffle, nothing more to it, and people are using it to guide their vote !

I think you all need a wake up call.
The electricity price may have risen by 7 or 10 per cent but that ignores
the trickle down effect from EVERYTHING you buy, not just electricity.
I am amazed that people on here, who after all are supposed to be a bit
politically aware and economically at least partially understanding
can be so unaware of the total cost.
In any case the whole thing is a total waste of money and effort.
It has not and never will make the slightest difference to the world temperature.

He will promise the moon and stars to win votes.
Paul1405,
Rudd's been doing that years.Now he is doing it again. It obviously is appealing to the hangers-on.

Bazz writes, "I am amazed that people on here, who after all are supposed to be a bit politically aware and economically at least partially understanding can be so unaware of the total cost."

Bazz, really, just follow the CPI. The proof is in the pudding if you didn't believe the forecast. Where is the massive inflation? The LNP either simply refuses to concede the simple fact that compensatory tax measures accommodate the inflationary impact, or, it "...is not a bit politically aware and economically at least partially understanding..." and "...so unaware of the total cost...".

It is, as Bazz says and I agree, amazing, but perhaps it's just the invisibility of CO2 at work here. LNP misinformation has been most effective upon its own followers but not upon people capable of minimal thought.

Where is the massive inflation?
Luciferase,
Wrong question. The right question is why the massive deflation. The deflation of hope, of people's aspirations to a decent life, all deflated by this Government. You can't put a figure on demoralisation or loss of self esteem. Stop trying to pull the wool over the eyes of first time voters by dragging out meaningless statistics. If you believe there is no inflation then go & get a job outside the public service & see how you go. Because that's where the hurt is. have a look at the cost of daily life while you're at it. Try being a pensioner who's Superannuation company was allowed to run away with your money by Governments of both colours.

Abbott is about to declare climate change as crap again. He is on about taxing an invisible substance such as Co2. Does that mean it doesn't exist. No doubt he will get his ears boxed over that one.

Luciferase,
The cost to all service suppliers and manufacturers of
raised electricity costs MUST be appearing somewhere.
Are those costs just disappearing by some sort of magic ?
Perhaps they are just going up in smoke as businesses go broke.

I have not seen massive inflation and that is not what I expected to
see but I think I have seen some of it in the "Closing Down Sales".

That is what I meant when people think the cost increase is ONLY in
their electricity bill.
You appear to be one of those.

Individual said;
Try being a pensioner who's Superannuation company was allowed to run
away with your money by Governments of both colours.

It gets worse than that.
The government is preparing the groundwork to comply with the G20
meeting agreement to seize bank deposits to "Bail In" banks in trouble.

Yes, exactly what was trialled in Cyprus.
That means the money you have in bank accounts can be confiscated to
cover the debts of banks if they go broke.

It appears that the Cyprus experiment was so successful that all G20
countries will implement the protocol.
A couple of days ago the New Zealand government passed legislation
to comply with the protocol.

Wayne Swan signed the agreement on behalf of Australia.
They are not boasting about that are they ?

The latest from Tony Boloney who said climate change is "absolute crap", there is no problem with CO2 because you can't see it. Is this now an Abbott policy "If ya can't see it, it can't hurt ya." well Tony do we apply that same reasoning to germs, the futures market and China? No problem with electricity prices, you can't see electricity, no problem there.

Paul,

I reckon the wind has always been unfairly blamed for wreaking havoc when it blows hard.

Obviously, being an invisible entity, it can't possibly have an effect.

Gawd, we're dumb!

Some time back on http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5207&page=8 I wrote in response to a claim that
400 000 small businesses will be hit by carbon pricing with no compensation:

"The compensation will come is raised prices charged by small business due to costs rising. No small business is exempt from the flow on effects of the carbon tax feeding into their cost base, so they remain in the same competitive position relative to each other. Customers/clients will have more money to pay the higher prices due to compensatory tax cuts and rises in government benefits."

Now, the inflationary effects have been calculated by the Treasury as have the compensatory tax cuts and rises in government benefits. All that's left to do by the opposition is to keep the public in a perpetually scared state over any change/reform and deny any offsets/benefits."

Bazz, follow the rest of that thread if you want to further understand why I think you are wrong to blame carbon pricing for "Closing Down Sales".

PS Indy, Jesse Jackson would be envious of your prose today with, "The deflation of hope, of people's aspirations to a decent life, all deflated by this Government. You can't put a figure on demoralisation or loss of self esteem. Stop trying to pull the wool over the eyes of first time voters by dragging out meaningless statistics."

BS aside, well might the LNP stop trying to pull the wool over the eyes of first time voters by leaving out facts.

Yes, I think I got this one wrong.

Sorry about that!

Dear rehctub,

Always try and tip my hat when someone admits they were wrong here.

Well done.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/highpressure-zone-abbott-on-the-fringe-after-ceding-centre-on-climate-20130716-2q2c7.html
If I was a supporter of the Coalition I would read the link.
In doing so I would keep in mind others think differently than me.
And in the end, I maybe others would not, would ask in what way Tony Abbott,s words helped gain those who do think differently, to our side of politics.
But I am welded on ALP so forgive my little celebration.
And yes joy, as all but the mans welded on voters ask is he bright enough to lead this country.

If I was a supporter of the Coalition
Belly,
If I were a supporter of the ALP I'd bring out a red-hot poker & let them feel it.

I can understand why Rudd would get away from the "Great Big Tax" but
I just don't understand why he would go to the European ETS.

In the current budget papers the Treasury forecasts that the Eu ETS
will go to between A$50 to A$71 a tonne by around 2020.
The EU is currently removing credits from the market to force the price up.

From our point of view this seems suicidal !

Or is he doing it just to get past the election ?
Then intending to do something else by June next year.

What do you think he is up to ?

20/20 is enough time for the big polluters to get their act together.
That is what it is all about, Co2 trading is for real and will be a global standard, if you can see it or not.
With all eastern states and SA connected electricity is bought from the one pool where we all get the same base cost, it is only the retailers costs that vary. Never lock yourself into a contract.

Banjo, tying our ETS in with the European model sounds eminently sensible to me. Quite apart from climate change, we surely want a setup that will encourage alternative energy and help get us off of our total addiction to fossil fuels. And we want to do it in a way that is equal or comparable to many other countries so that we are not put at an economic disadvantage.

What is bad about Rudd’s move is that it takes the price of carbon backwards and waters down the purpose of the carbon tax / ETS, which is entirely the wrong direction to move in.

encourage alternative energy and help get us off of our total addiction to fossil fuels.
Ludwig,
You won't get an argument on that from anyone. where you will get one is as to WHAT alternative ? Solar ? The production of Solar is more polluting than burning fossils. What needs to be cut back to lower pollution are the war games, motor sport, incessant travel the list goes on.
Technology should of course be pursued to the maximum but not to treat frivolous polluting industry with kids gloves.

Luddy,
You may have the wrong bloke! My comment, on page 1, was about Rudd and Labor lying. He will say anything, just like Gillard, if he thinks it will gain votes.

For the record, I can see the climate does change but humans do not influence that. It is mother nature, just like the tides, earthquakes, continental drift and the magnetic poles shifting. There are things humans have no influence over.

If the warmists were fair dinkum about human influence on AGW they would address the world population influence on carbon emissions. Yet at every talkfest, they refuse to do so.

Bugger! I got my Banjos and Bazzes bamboozed!¡!¡

Apologies.

Banjo, I have no doubt that AGW is very real, given the enormous and sudden release of carbon stored in the earth for many millions of years, and the vast anthropogenic changes to the earth’s surface in terms of reflectivity and hydrology.

But quite apart from this, and at least as importantly, we need to prepare our society for the conversion from total and utter dependence on fossil fuels to a much more energy-diverse paradigm.

Yes I agree all the way that there is the most staggering duplicity going on here with the lack of action, an indeed in Australia the massive facilitation, of continuous population growth.

Now, perhaps Rudd is being a bit strategic with his move to an ETS. It is afterall a good thing in the longer term, and it no doubt will win him support from the business sector and a fairly large section of the voting populace, and it dilutes Abbott’s harder line policy of just abolishing the whole carbon emissions kaboodle. It could well be that this move will get him over the line at the forthcoming election, given how tight the competition is.

But unfortunately, there is not a lot of indication that he cares too much about the environment and none at all that he gives a hoot about sustainability. So I would think that this move is actually the opposite – it would appeal to the green and environmentally-minded voters when compared to Abbott’s policy, but will then likely be watered down even further, in line with his beloved big-business-facilitation and pro-rapid-growth-big-Australia push.

Talking about sustainability, has Kevin13 dropped Kevin07's vision of a totally diversified "Big Australia" yet?

That was one of the major issues that convinced his Labor colleagues in 2008-10 that Kevin07 was unelectable in 2010.

When Julia Gillard replaced "Rudd the Dud", her very first promise was to cut the record immigration levels set by Rudd that overstretched available infrastructure, forced up housing prices and for which he had never had a mandate and didn't intend to ever put to the Australian people for a popular vote.

Well, it seems that no one has a clue as to what Rudd is up to with
his latest switcheroo.
Perhaps he doesn't know either, it is just quick fix it now !

The ETS will be welcomed by the business people, or rather correction
by the Financial part of business.
They are already programmed up for the Trading market.
I will remind you of how the Russian oligarchs became so rich.
They did it by ripping off the European businesses using the ETS.
Now I find it hard to believe that they and others are not very
interested in a repeat performance on our entry.
They won't make as much as they did in Europe but it will be a nice little earner.

Ludwig, not sure what you were aiming at me, but I think it is pretty
certain that he, Rudd, neither has a policy of a "Big Australia" or a
"Not too Big an Australia", I think he just reacts to the buzz of the moment.

Well I am still skeptical of AGW especially as there has been no
significant warming for 17 years.
However we do agree that we need to get a move on with alternative energy.
While what I am about to write refers to the US, what happens in their
market affects widely the whole world market.

We have been bombarded with news about how the US will become a
natural gas exporter etc etc.
It has just become apparent that the conventional plus fracked gas
has started to decline. In other words the increased production of
fracked gas has not been able to offset the decline of conventional
natural gas in the US.
This means our gas plants at Gladstone will still have their market
as the US will not be an exporter.

With oil & coal the costs of extraction are rising quiet quickly and
will reach the point, where oil is at present, of it becoming unaffordable.

At present the oil price we are paying is $US 125.
That is a price that might well push our economy into recession.