I have to wonder just when Kevin Rudd changed his view on asylum seekers.

Did it just happen one night after he became PM again, you know, woke up one morning with a different view, or, did it happen quite some time ago, but he held the belief that "it's not my problem" as it's not my job.

Interesting hey!

It doesn't really matter when he changed his views on asylum seekers now rehctub, because he is way up there in the opinion polls compared to Abbott.

I guess people remember all the things Abbott has apparently (at least in public anyway) changed his mind over, such as contraception and abortion, and realise that this is what ALL politicians do.

Getting worried about the coming election yet rehctub ?
You have been a little quieter than normal on this site of late : )

A lot of the views others imposed on Labor and its views on the boats are a fantasy.
Abbott, content to not actually want the boats stopped.
But to both claim he did, and that he was the answer has beached himself.
A considered view, not always on display here, tells us the solution must be a *regional one* taking in to consideration all country,s effected by the refugee problem.

I advise such as Rechtub, that the blame game no longer works.
And added to Mr Negativity's long list of complaints, and the refusal to put forward answers/alternative policy is no longer good enough.

OK guys, enough waffling about REGIONAL SOLUTIONS/ REGIONAL COOPERATION. Following close on Kevin's barnstorming visit to Indonesia we have its first test.

See here:<<An Indonesian court has ruled against extraditing accused people smuggler Sayed Abbas to Australia to face... 27 charges of people smuggling>>
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-11/sayed-abbas-extradition-verdict/4814758

<<[It was]... not included in Australia's extradition treaty with Indonesia...a letter from Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono would be needed. NO SUCH LETTER WAS PROVIDED>>

<<The judge said the offences, if they did occur, were not within Australia's jurisdiction>>

This particular point is interesting: <<The judge said the offences, if they did occur, were not within Australia's jurisdiction>>
Hmmmm! I wonder how this judge feels about the Australian navy picking up "asylum seeekers" (ex-Indonesia ports, crewed by Indonesians) from inside the Indonesian maritime rescue zone?

C'mon Yudhoyono, C'mon Ruddyono put-up OR SHUT-UP!

The Malaysia solution would have solved the problem years ago. Dr no said no. So who doesn't want the boats stopped.

So Mr Rudd is ahead of Tony Abbott in the opinion polls.
Who cares!
When are we as a voting public going to understand it not about Abbott, Rudd, Wong, Gillard or any indivdual.
We vote for policy, not personality.
If the Australian public are duped -again- into this personality stuff over policy preference, then Australia will get more of what we've had. Bad government who sucked the electorate in with spin.
For Australia's sake, please vote on policy.

Rehctub>> I have to wonder just when Kevin Rudd changed his view on asylum seekers<<

Butcher, in fairness it must be stated that Kevin said he would send boats back with the help of our military in 2007. Once elected that sound bite meant nothing of course.

No boats, no carbon taxes…an undertaking by two Labor PM’s that meant little to them except as dialogue for expediency of control.

Doog>> The Malaysia solution would have solved the problem years ago<<

What a load of rubbish Doog, you either don’t know what day it is or you are playing with facts.

The Malaysian deal was…we give them 800 and we get thousands of genuine U.N refugees back.

One deal, one time. Last week we had 800 arrived in days…….what solution Doog?

The Malaysia solution would have solved the problem years ago.
doog,
who told you that ? Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard ?

It is a Ruddy mess.

Christine Milne and the Greens made it infinitely worse by blocking any attempt by Julia Gillard to do anything about it.

Milne and the Greens boast about the Greens' treachery to Gillard that resulted in hundreds of deaths at sea and the wastage of $$billions of TAXPAYERS' MONEY.

When will the election be held to put out the rubbish in Canberra?

You can't say stop the boats and expect it to happen. Just like the carbon tax, it won't go away. Some one said vote for policy, policy is already in place we will be voting for popularity. That was proved when Julia got the axe. After the election legislation needed for Malaysia will be resolved. That is where they congregate before going to Indonesia to board boats. The round trip will have cost them everything they had, and no money for a second chance. Abbott could see the advantage in it and said no deal. A hung parliament was always going to be difficult, and now Abbott with his hand in the till. There is to much at stake to allow Hockey and Abbott any where near power. Look at what neo-liberalism has cost the world now.

doog, "A hung parliament was always going to be difficult"

A partnership or any reliance on the treacherous Greens is always going to be impossible.

Julia Gillard was hamstrung by the Greens who refused to let any changes through the Senate. The Greens boast about it still.

On the other hand, where Gillard gave way to the Greens on the carbon (dioxide) tax they allowed it through the Senate.

SPQR startling stuff!
A court in another country can do as it wishes.
Indonesia is a Democratic country,it courts are not ruled over by government.
Ours or theirs.
In what way is that courts ruling different from our high court over ruling the Malaysian solution.

Well you can all find out how good Ruddy's word is.

Elect him & you'll find his deal with Indonesia is all a blind. Any promise to have a regional solution will be almost exactly like Gillard's no carbon tax promise. A total con, only designed to get through an election.

Suddenly it will transpire he can not get a deal, a big surprise for all I'm sure. That with his "can't turn the boats back" whinge, & illegals will skyrocket.

What's more, with his election for life, neither the party or us will be able do get rid of him.

Strange how these insightful lefties, who know better than Abbott himself, what he will do, can not see through this bit of garbage they have made their leader.

Hasbeen,

You have my sympathy.

The changing fortunes in Aus politics recently must be getting right up your nose.

Que sera sera

rehctub - Quote "I have to wonder just when Kevin Rudd changed his view on asylum seekers." Nice coincidence check out this link someone just posted a thread that points out the hypocrisy of Rudd and Company.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15232

They proposed turning back boats in 2007.

The changing fortunes in Aus politics recently
Poirot,
fortunes is clearly vastly different to fortunate or, as in this case, unfortunate.

Susie on line said;
Getting worried about the coming election yet rehctub ?

Yes, I think it is very valid to worry about it.
The party changes its leader within a few months of an election which
is surprising seeing how good a job she was doing.
Well so you, Poriot and Lexi have been telling us anyway, but the as
soon as the show pony trots out, hundreds of thousands change the way
they intend to vote !

Hmmm, I am wondering whether the stupidity was in the Labour party or
is it in the voters.

Now that really is something to worry about !

doog, one could also argue that the problem didn't exist until Kevin 07 came along fixing something that's wasnt broken.

Seems to be the labor way.

Suz, it's very important when K Rudd changed his mind, because if it was simply in an attempt to increase his popularity (as PM) then that's a case of using these unfortunate people as a political pawn.

Shame on him if this is the case.

As for turning back the boats, this thread is not about that, rather, it's about how all of a sudden K Rudd says most of these are actually economic migrants.

So, I ask again, at what point did he change his view?

Now as for me being quiet of late, well, as the saying goes, if you can't beat em, join em, so I've taken a job.

$26.50 per hour, plus penalties for doing SFA.

Any wonder we are in do do land.

rehctub, good to see you applying your boundless talents. Doing SFA. Do those toilets clean themselves? $26.50 per hour, plus penalties, I'd want double that considering the boss didn't supply a brush and its all done by hand. If they install a flush system will you be made redundant?

Lol Paul : )

Rehctub , good luck with your new job.

Bazz, I can't remember ever having said that Gillard did a good job, but please correct me by showing where I did?
She was never really given a chance to do a good job...

....She was never really given a chance to do a good job...

Suz, While I'm not convinced she could have done a good job, I would have to agree with you on that point.

Paul, you are wasting YOUR talent trying to get a rise out of me mate.

Now let's just lookG a your reply.

$26.50 per hour, $53.00 on a Sunday and $79.50 on a public holiday, for cleaning a toilet you say.

Now let's put this into prospective and apply this rate to what I believe a policeman SHOULD be on, in comparison, because after all, our law enforcement officers often risk their lives to protect our peaceful way of life.

Now we have to remember, police are on salary, not an hourly rate, so in reality, many TOILET CLEANERS actually earn more than police.

Here's a link http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-police-forced-to-work-two-jobs-to-make-ends-meet/story-e6freoof-1225891833427

Do you think the policemen are on a decent wage, in comparison to a toilet cleaner?

Do you think risking ones life is only worth another ten grand per year, and that's ONLY if the toilet cleaner works Mon to Fri set 38hrs.

This is the reason why I say our unskilled wage is too high.

BTW, I am very well skilled, just not using them at the moment.

"This is the reason why I say our unskilled wage is too high." Typical conservative thinking, have you ever considered that maybe skilled wages maybe too low. Was it not that arch conservative Pig Iron Bob Menzies, the founder of the Liberal Party who said Australia needed a pool of unemployed, I do believe his figure was 10%, that will keep the lower classes in check.
Does that copper money include back handers and bribes, if it don't the NSW cops should get it written into the award.

Boat arrivals are seasonal it was always going to happen. It's a world wide problem. We get a few, but Malaysia would have stemmed the flo and made people wait their turn. Purely political reasons why this did not get used.
We can not compare policies, Mr Abbott won't share his with anyone. So it comes down to popularity. Palmer will get seats, and so will The cowboy bloke, and greens.
Abbotts tactics were all the rage in the USA, but came to nothing in the end. Australia deserves better from our would be leaders. Maybe its time for real governmental change, the present system is failing. When you have a govt; that can not govern because someone other than govt; says no, is that the system we need here

If people have $10,000 - $14,000 to spend on illegal entry by boats; why dont they fly here it would be cheaper? That way they are checked at the border and sent home if illegal? No they know they are illegal entrants. Put them on a plane and send them all back to country of origin, unless processed as a genuine persecuted person. There is another agenda here most are coming from Islamic dominated war torn countries. They bring their primitive culture here and despise our personal freedoms.

In time Australia will become a third world country with people reliant on Govt handouts and having never worked or paid taxes. WE need tougher border controlls, and no one becomes a Citizen unless born here or worked here legally for two years.

Governments are prone to try to make friends with taxpayers funds. Kevin wants a population of 40,000,000 but at the current rate of job creation goes by 2050 35,000,000 population will be living of the 5,000,000 workers. The only people receiving a retired pension will be those who have superannuation; unless the Govt needs that to meet their budget.

Paul, everyone would love to earn more, but the reality is, you have to face reality, as there is simply no way we, the tax payer, can afford it.

America appears to be kicking some long over due goals, and guess what, their low skilled are offered low rates of pay.

Now this foes not mean they are all on low incomes, as many either work longer hours, or, are very good at what they do (waiting as an examp,e) and earn a great living.

Our mentality, or should i say, labor's, is to pay people for how long the job takes, rather than for a job well done.

The current case with Teys will be interesting one to watch, as it may well bring a few people back to earth.

Kerry packer had a similar 'take it or leave it' approach when his staff at Lakes Creek went on continuous strikes, he sacked 1300 of them.

Unfortunately, the good times have gone, so the conditions brought about by the shortage of workers have to go as well.

Like it or not.

Well Susie on line, I agree, I cannot actually point to somewhere where
you said that Julia did a good job, but you certainly lept to her
defense when she was criticized. Or was that just a sisterhood thing ?

Rehcub, I am afraid most on here belong to the business as usual team
and have no idea what is happening under their noses.
What is going on in Europe will happen here, probably when the chickens
come home to roost in China.

The entitlement brigade are already feeling the initial turn of the
screws with the cutback to single mums, pension when the kids turn 8.
I notice the show pony is making a big thing of Abbot going to do some
cutting back on entitlements. Well he simply will have to and I think
he should be saying to the public;

"YOU DON'T HAVE THE MONEY !"

When did Kevin Rudd change his view on asylum seekers, or anything else for that matter?

Well probably last month, then again last week.

Of course he changed what ever passers for a mind in that strange head again yesterday, & then again this morning.

It is a pity he hasn't learnt to think about things over night, it would double the time he could hold an idea. Hell he might actually think about something, before doing it, but bl00dly unlikely.

His method is to have a ping, act in haste, then refuse to think about it, as it came from god, & god help us.

Rehctub Abbott would love to earn more, but the reality is, you have to face reality, as there is simply no way we, the tax payer, can afford him.
The Mad Monk's on a pay of about $350K plus what he can grab on expenses illegally, wants a hike to about $500K pa You must agree Abbott's productivity/performance makes a good case for lowering the minimum wage to about 4 bob a week.

It would be good if our politicians talked in the present or future tense. They seem to be stuck in the past. Old news today and old news tomorrow. Even the newspapers are doing it, or at least the Australian

doog,
Yeah, just like the ALP supporters like to link themselves to the Labor Party of integrity of so long ago.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/abbotts-copycat-towback-plan-wont-stop-the-boats-20130714-2pxyg.html
I tread on dangerous ground in posting this link.
Reality is not welcomed in this debate.
I share the wish to stop the boats, yes totally and forever.
I admit my party got it wrong.
And for the most part started the current flow.
But, to my harsh critics that is the place my being right ends.
They like many,have fallen for Tony Abbott,s simplistic three word LIE!
We he says will turn the around.
No he will not, and who ever takes his job, pre or post election will withdraw from that silly statement.
World wide refugees,many if not most, economic refugees,is an increasing problem.
The solution if not a regional one but a world one, must be addressed with understanding.
We must stop the boats/deaths but it will not be done by such as Abbott.

Belly,
People smugglers are Indonesian and in it for the economics. Indonesia has a responsibility to deal with their citizens acting illegally by breaching the borders of another country. They are Indonesian boats entering Australian waters without permit. Tow the boats back into Indonesian waters.

Josephus, it is not illegal for Indonesian boats to enter Australian waters.
I do not know if Christmas Island is an official Port of Entry.
What is illegal is for an aircraft or ship to bring undocumented
passengers into Australia.
The passengers can be refused entry and the passengers deported back
to their last port of departure.

That is what happens nearly every day at Australian airports.
I have not heard of Indonesia refusing deported passengers.
I am sure it would have been headlines if it did happen because the
passenger would be ping ponging backwards and forwards.

I think Indonesia has just been waiting for us to wake up and hoping we never do.

Bazz,

Agree with that.

The problem though is that unlike countries like Denmark where the decision of their Immigration department stands and economic migrants are turned back at the gate or within one week of arrival, decisions made by our Immigration Department can be appealed and appealed.

The UK has the same arrangements as Oz and the same unintended consequences - abuses by the quick-witted and lawyers with their snouts in the trough of taxpayers' money.

onthebeach,
If Australia is arresting captains of Indonesian boats for illegal entry and destroying their boats. Are the captains not criminal on that count alone. That they bring people with the intention to stay in Australia without documentation is a separate matter.

Josephus,

The captains must abide by all international and local laws. Their country of flag as well. The powers of a captain are very broad and his responsibilities reflect that.

Indonesia has been getting off very lightly for its responsibilities. See Article 94 linked below,

http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part7.htm

The boats are Indonesian flagged (Nominally at least).
The captains and crew are Indonesian (by birth).
The point of departure is Indonesia (Geographically)
The passengers seem to have some sort of legal residency in Indonesia otherwise they could and would be deported by the Indonesian authorities.
Their departure from Indonesian ports must be under the oversight of Indonesian officialdom.
Therefore it seems to me that the whole process is sanctioned and overseen by Indonesia.
So intercept them in international waters, leave them with enough fuel to make it back to their port of departure and tow them back inside Indonesian territorial waters and let them go.
They can then choose to either go home or drift all the way to Australia.
If I was the captain I know what I would be doing.

The boaters are imported from Malaysia. Indonesia is just a departure place. Chances are Indonesia would not know where they depart from or how many are on board.

[CORRECTION]

Re:<<The boaters are imported from Malaysia. Indonesia is just a departure place. Chances are Indonesia would not know where they depart from or how many are on board>>

They fly into BOTH Malaysia AND Indonesia.

Therefore they must have clearance to enter the country in the first place which means the Indonesian govt knows they are there.

I ask the question:
* If the Indonesian army entered our borders would we defend our borders or just allow them free access?

*For those who believe in open borders, Do you believe Australia should abandon our armed forces and give everyone free access?

*But I just wonder if you have locks on your doors, and fences around your yards?

*Do you sanction theft?

Josephus
Of course these pro refugee socialists do . Gutless so&sos who have never picked up a gun to defend their country or way of life and never will.
These were the same people that lined the streets when we came back from Vietnam and spat in our faces.

Indonesia sees the Northern part of Australia as relatively vacant land and formerly part of Indonesia; so they sanction shipping boats to Australia as they do to west Papua. This is an unarmed invasion not refugees fleeing persecution.

Perhaps we put those refugees in the North as subsistence farmers and give each family 5 hectare so it resembles the country from which they fled. No Government handouts as obviously these people have money to be able to pay smugglers.