Ironic that one minute there is an outrage about army men filming their conquering efforts and the next minute the press promotes the porn industry. Looks like our years of teaching moral relativism is just producing the obvious fruit that any thinking person could see would. Still you will have those who defend the filthy perverted porn trade and then express outrage when men and woman feed from it and act it out and share it around.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/army-shamed-by-sex-videos-20130613-2o79z.html

Social media has a lot to answer for I would suggest.

As for porn, I would go so far as to suggest it is viewed by more people, than not and if anyone does not like it, the solution is simple, DON'T WATCH IT!

The whole thing is a bit of a joke really.

How could putting video, or picks women indulging in sex with these blokes be considered as the blokes degrading the women, when they are putting themselves up doing the same thing.

Why is it OK for the women to do it, but degrading if people see it?
Why is it not degrading for women, but not for blokes?
God some people need to grow the hell up.

They reckon the women want to be equal to the other soldiers, well if so, they need to toughen up a bit, & go with the flow.

I don't know what this general bloke wants in his army, perhaps he wants poofs who wont sleep with the girls. Perhaps they could issue powder puffs to their "men". I'm sure the Taliban will be terrified of the powder puff army.

God help us, don't these feminist women have anything worthwhile to do with their time, & the same goes for the fool general. Stop crawling to the feminists, tell them to go jump, & get on with running a fighting force, not a powder puff joke.

Nothing funny about this Hasbeen.
And nothing that you will not find in our community in general.
Not that it is made right by being the done thing.
Education starting at school and going on to work is needed.
I have seen some dreadful things when folk use sex as a means to getting power over others.

'Nothing funny about this Hasbeen. '

for a change Belly we agree.

Guys putting this sort of thing in the publioc domain by filming it and posting it are really wimps of the first degree, pathetically fighting and conquering only women who have no hope of winning a fight. These are not soldiers who could tackle the enemy, but pretend fighters. They fight Australian non-combatants. Heaven help us if they were confronted by a real enemy. They should be court martialled out of the army then pay damages to the women who they demean. NObody has the right to put in public a film of a person without that person's permission. These guys don't just demean army recruits, they insult all Australians. I think, Hasbeen old boy, that you are thinking of a bygone era that is well gone. Men no longer rule in Australia. But these guys are not men. They are wimps.

I live in an army town. These blokes have a well deserved reputation for sleaziness, yet some women seem to be attracted to them, almost because of this. Education campaigns can only do so much.

I am personally involved as my wife is a serving member. Watching this very closely now because the previous scandals were treated as some sort of joke.

Modern army is completely different from the old days. Change is happening slowly, but we need to remember that it is not your typical small private firm where there are a few hundred employees, The ADF employs thousands of people and change can be slow to implement considering all the administrative work involved. Don't forget that employees not only complain about sexual discrimination and abuse, but also about many different abuse of power which are at the core of the ADF culture. The ADF policing agency has a lot on its plate.

The command needs to deal a massive blow and start by setting an example not only to the public, but to its own employees. Shake the hell out of these criminals. As far as I remember, Australia is not involved in any major conflict and we can do without these 100 or so personnel for a while. They won't be missed.

the question is where did these guys learn this behaviour from? It seems to me they have no moral base to act from and more than likely are just trying to reproduce the porn they have fed on.

Now hold on techasist.

Let’s not condemn the 100 or so personnel…. yet. Innocent until proven guilty, hey?

It could possibly be pretty benign banter between colleagues with no ill-intent, hey?

Could possibly currently be being blown out of all proportion?

Could well be.

At this stage we don’t know.

But what we do know is that there is a culture in which a whole lot of people felt comfortable in behaving in this way…. And let’s face it: emails are a permanent record of correspondence. So if people felt comfortable putting sexist comments in their emails, then they presumably felt as though it was OK within the culture of the ADF!!

So perhaps it is not these 100 or so people who need to be reprimanded, punished or dismissed, but rather the culture that needs to be changed. And that those in charge, who are overseeing the culture of the ADF, are in NO POSITION to punish anyone who has partaken in it!!

Indeed, it could well be that THEY are the most guilty people of all…. and are the ones that really need to be punished.

Or perhaps there is actually nothing significantly wrong with this culture, and it is just what you would expect from any group of men, and is just a microcosm of broader society.

Indeed, it could possibly be viewed as a positive bonding exercise, for as long as it has had no significant negative effects on any women. And has it?? If it had, we would surely have heard about it, big time!

BTW techasist, welcome to OLO.

Thanks for the welcome.

I agree that most of these guys are not guilty, but my point is that the ADF is not short of personnel and that whatever the numbers which have been found guilty have to go. No half-measures or catch-you-next-time.

I understand that not everyone is up to speed with computers and modern day methods of computer investigation, but in any ADF email, there is a big disclaimer at the bottom stating that it remains the property of the ADF. Why on earth would so-called officers, who are supposed to be smart leaders, post anything remotely NSFW on ADF internal network.

Ludwig, I think that your argument that these individuals felt this type of material was safe or accepted by the ADF is half correct. We don't know the intricacies of the scandal, but I imagine that if a junior officer was to receive such sensitive material on the ADF network from a superior officer, the said junior officer would feel that it is in fact safe to do so.

Welcome from me too, in such matters long before computers those in power act this way.
We too at such times see a generalization by some women against all men.
Sex crimes are two sides some women commit them too.
But this has dragged out for too long and just maybe with an election due, this time results will come.

Techasist, there is often a discrepancy between what appears to be the lawful position and what is generally accepted behaviour. This one of my great frustrations in life – that understanding the intent of the law or your code of conduct is not good enough, because accepted practice is often quite different.

I see this with road rules; speed limits and the like, all the time. And I experienced it with the code of conduct in my workplace, which caused me much stress over a period of several years.

I presume that the same situation exists in the ADF, where everyone understands on the technically lawful level that emails and the like should only be used for work purposes, but that on the everyday practical level, it is quite different, and it is alright to use these means of communication for completely non-work matters, up to a point. When one witnesses colleagues, and especially higher-ranking colleagues, doing this, then one feels comfortable doing it themselves… and indeed may feel somewhat left out, sidelined or ostracised if they don’t.

So it comes down to those in charge of overseeing the culture.

It is these people who are denouncing all those involved in the culture that they have allowed to exist and flourish. It is them who need the kick up the bum, not the ordinary participants.

Lieutenant General David Morrison acknowledges that cultural change is need. But I think that he is quite wrong and strongly divisive in telling all those who are involved in this matter, or who think in the same way, to get out of the ADF!

Well my chance to say, "I told you so". For gods sake, what the hell did you expect when you added horny young girls & boys together & stirred the mix.

The defense force has always been full of frustrated blokes, with restricted access to the opposite sex, & now you mix them, & did not expect trouble.

Luddy the cultural change we've had was a big mistake, & the defense force is much weaker for it. Any cultural change to make it a nice place for ladies will just make it weaker.

We have just retired a couple of large ships, not because they were shot, but because 4 of the 6 blokes who could run the damn things got out of the navy. Why? Because of some of the "ladies' coming out of the collage.

My son had trouble with lady stokers, who are not allowed to lift enough weight to be able to do their job. The men who have to pick up the slack get sick of it.

One army bloke I know has just joined the SAS, because the girls can't take the physical. He reckoned his choice was leave or SAS, as he could not stand the feminisation of the army. After a couple of stints in Afghanistan these blokes don't take fools gladly, or well. They have enough problem breaking in young male officers fresh out of the college, the girls stand on their rank & dignity, & are not only unbearable, but untrainable too.

Wake up to your selves folks! Do you want to be defended, or do you want another nice career path for girls? It is becoming increasingly obvious that you can't have both, oh, & don't forget, we told you so.

Hey, hey, Hasbeen

Yup...we should have seen it coming.

When horny blokes are confronted by horny girls and they get it together....apparently it's entirely natural for the blokes to be overcome by an irresistible desire to post film of it on the internet.

Geez Hasbeen old boy, drag yourself out of the 19th century!
You surely aren't suggesting that the military men have been led astray by nasty women only after women were allowed to join the forces?

I think there has been military men behaving badly since the dawn of time actually.
These guys posting videos and emails of sexual activity weren't in a war zone, and thus had access to as many women as they liked in the wider community.
So having women in the forces wouldn't really be the issue in this case.

It isn't a matter of the military women needing to 'toughen up' at all.
Imagine the outcry if a bunch of military women took videos of fellow military men having sex with them, aiming the camera on their crutch area, then posting email pictures and comments denigrating the guy's lack of size or sexual abilities?

woman choosing to sleep around certainly contribute to the problem. A little morals taught by parents would go a long way. Then again they might see a need to set an example. The reality is that no matter how many dogmas feminist hold to, men and women lose respect by failing to learn a little self control. All gratification and no responsibility.

Hasbeen , bloke surely you are aware how wrong that is?
Some of the assaults, not that it should matter, investigated are male on male.

runner,

How does "women behaving exactly like men" contribute to men posting their sexual frolics on the internet?

Why is the matter of men posting such things on the internet a matter concerning "feminist dogma"?

Runner, men and women behaving badly like this has been happening since the dawn of time, long before feminism or pornography were even thought about.

So where is your reasoning?

All the so-called morals and religious teaching in a Priest's education, for example, never stopped some of them wanting and having sex with children did it?

Some people are just born bad I think...

Poirot

believe it or not when a woman sleeps around she loses respect even in this modern everything is acceptable world. In my view the man also loses respect.Feminist dogma preaches that you can sleep with as many men/woman as you like as long as you are't 'hurting 'anyone. Its none of anyones elses business as far as they are concerned. The reality is that whether its a man's sporting team, army, workplace, schoolyard you will find a woman in particular loses respect by her actions. Unfortunately my view is that a man should also lose respect although you kn ow as well as I do that his ego is enhanced by conquering his prey'. The army scandal is probably one of many examples of what I have just mentioned.

The other issue is that only those in complete denial can't admit that porn reduces men and woman (predominantly) to sex objects. Why not display 'objects 'to your mates. Everyday woman are doing it on the internet. Respect for human life and dignity goes out the window when woman are reduced to objects. You can't change the fallen human nature. Thankfully God can.

'Some people are just born bad I think.. '

Oh I see Susie you were born good but others bad. I can't boast the same about myself. I was born in sin and naturally lived out my nature. Thankfully their was One I know of who never had the stinking nature I was born with.

"Why not display your objects to your mates."

Hmmm...... I think it's more "Why not display your prowess to your mates"....no different really to squealing your tyres when you're driving a big red ute.

Why is it only men do that?

In any case, the posting of naughty pics and film online by men is something that men chose to do to show how they, as you say, had "conquered" - at least in this case.

It's got nothing to do with the women involved.

Susie

'Runner, men and women behaving badly like this has been happening since the dawn of time, long before feminism or pornography were even thought about.

So where is your reasoning?

Yep right through history Susie. The Christian Judea ethic certainly put a restraint on the evil but now that we have abandoned it we have reentered the Noah times. We just have the technology to display it in peoples faces 24/7. That's the only difference. We have regressived morally rather than progressed thanks to the 'progressives

Yes, runner,

It does seem the lid has been prized off, now that religion takes a back seat. The Western Eye rules supreme, and all sorts of pagan spirits abound.

Humans really can't handle being reminded that in the intersection of life called "sex", we're reduced to a rutting, moaning, carnal brutishness.

So we call it "evil".

Never mind...I expect it'll all go into reverse somewhere along the track.

Poirot <" Humans really can't handle being reminded that in the intersection of life called "sex", we're reduced to a rutting, moaning, carnal brutishness."

Yes indeed Poirot, I wonder how Runner's God allowed it all to come down to this level of sin at all really : )

Runner, I never said I was 'good' did I?
Who are the 'progressives' anyway?
Are they the Godless feminists?
What about a religious feminist?

In any case, this sinful world will soon be washed away by a flood, like back in the bad old days of Noah hey Runner?
You will be on that Ark I suppose...

Come on ladies, the girls are as likely as the blokes to initiate sexual relations. Many would be carving notches on an imaginary gun butt as they scored.

Most of them would only get upset if mummy found out.

Who says it is wrong? My mother did, & I believed her. However at my age I can see that our current morals are an artifact of "the church" control of the population, for it's own advantage not ours. Sorry runner but it is a fact.

I mentioned some time back a school friend of my eldest daughter, who engaged in the call girl business while at Uni. She reckoned girls were expected to "put out" for any bloke who took them out to dinner, so why not get paid for it as well. A very modern girl, who would probably been horrified if mum found out.

So stop the feigned horror, & the feminist propaganda, if you want a mixed sex defense force, expect lots of sexual adventures, & stop bleating about it.

'In any case, this sinful world will soon be washed away by a flood, like back in the bad old days of Noah hey Runner?
You will be on that Ark I suppose... '

Sadly Susie it will be fire next time. Man made gw is a joke compared with the reality. There will be plenty of mockers as their was before the flood. OLO is evident of that. Those in Christ will be the only ones escaping.

Gillard's imported master of spin has has decreed that since the Julia stinks with the electorate, there really must be sexism diversions to throw and hopefully bait the opposition leader into reacting, and divert media attention away from Julia's record and (ahem) electoral pong.

So the Minister for Defence, aka 'The Walking Talking Haicut' is obliging by frothing up sexism complaints in the ADF. True, some allegations exist, but if there was anyone least suited to investigating and taking decisions it would be 'The Walking Talking Haicut'. Smith has form for making outrageous politically driven allegations and decisions in the past, for instance concerning a senior officer. Smith was eventually proved wrong and he trashed a fine reputation, but he is never apologising, No Siree.

Meanwhile there is a fellow politician still basking in the federal Parliament who has serious allegations to answer. Gillard has defended and shielded him. The PM herself defended another fellow whose main contribution to society over many years of parliamentary service was to discover a similarity between vagina and sea creature and as well, that another member of Parliament was one (and he wasn't referring to a mussel).

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/revealed-what-peter-slippers-sexist-text-messages-actually-said/story-fndo4eg9-1226492172640

Now if only ADF members could do as some federal politicians do, 'The Walking Talking Haicut' could really help his boss Julia out with some headlines.

Hasbeen,

Yes, yes, yes....it's well established that women like sex too.

Can you explain why the men feel the need to plaster their sexual exploits up and down the net?

Surely you're not suggesting that because women are now in the defence force - that it compels men to post their sexual antics online?

Poirot, "Can you explain why the men feel the need to plaster their sexual exploits up and down the net?"

Can you explain why women do the same, with bells on too because they sell tell-it-all stories to women's magazines?

Onthebeach, I doubt the sexual exploits alluded to in Women's magazines are hardly in the same category of seriousness as what is being suggested with the current scandal.

At least, they aren't that bad in the women's magazines I have read anyway.
Maybe you have read 'different' magazines then?

It must be bad if the army have stood down some men over the scandal already.
I haven't heard that any women have been stood down........have you?

onthebeach,

We are discussing here the posting online of explicit sexual videos and emails.

Women do not pass on explicit sexual videos, etc to women's magazines for the edification of the public.

Let's face it, this was nothing but a bit of posing and strutting by the men involved - and at the same time it had the added bonus of humiliating and demeaning the women involved as well.

(Bravo!)

I am still waiting to hear how these girls are humiliated any more than the men.

What the hell did they think the video machine was doing?

I recall some celebrity ladies bleating when their "private" sex videos turned up on the net. Of course you have to believe that these ladies didn't put it there to ginger up a fading career to start with if you want to be sorry for them.

Then you have to ask why they had a camera trained on their bed in the first place, if it wasn't to make videos for future display.

You'll have to work a lot harder to convince me the complainants aren't crying crocodile tears.

Hasbeen,

Oh now I can see why you and I are running at cross purposes here.

Here I am assuming that these videos were taken on the sly with a mobile phone (or some such contrivance) -

And you're assuming they had a whole swathe of production equipment, a hefty camera set up, and someone with a clapper board yelling "Action!"

Poirot, if not a full production team I am led to believe many of those celebrates home sex videos had at least a cameraman/woman involved.

No I doubt this is the case with these defense force videos, but many are probably mutually agreed filming of the event.

I gather you believe they are all hidden camera, secret filming events.

I admit I know little of the current development of couples or casual sexual partners filming their trysts, but I'm assured it is common.

As a bloke who's only camera is the one in the mobile phone my kids demand I carry on my wanderings, & I have yet to figure out how or if it works, I'm not into such activities. Nor indeed would I wish to publish the results if I were, but I think you will find many young women today, are not so inhibited.

The video by Army Chief David Morrison was the first time the ADF has gone all out to address this behaviour.

Even if the diehards cannot see that this is blatantly sexist behaviour, if nothing else it is an invasion of privacy. The act of sex is between individuals and the filming without knowledge or intention to post is a gross betrayal of trust.

Do people really believe these are the type of men we need in the army. What happened to honour and bravery? These acts are nothing but cowardly acts to muster favour with the peer group. It is the worst type of groupthink. Looking after your mates (men and women) and the idea that 'we've got your back' is a joke given the lack of respect towards others.

A male friend who left the ADF a few years ago said this has been going on for years. Men and women who raised these concerns years back were ostracised and had to fight to stay in the ADF. Some naturally chose to leave.

It is about time this juvenile and dishonourable behaviour was stopped. It has nothing to do with who sleeps with whom but about standards of behaviour. Sex is not the problem, the attitudes that go with and the lack of maturity seem to be an issue.

One has to ask questions about the recruitment process. Is it anyone with a pulse will do?

'Do people really believe these are the type of men we need in the army'

well Pelican its amazing how some now think that private lives affect public performance. I would suggest compared with some of the grubs in Parliament these guys would stack up quite well.

runner
The behaviour of politicians has sunk to new lows but I have to disagree on the comparison. This has been going on for a long time in the ADF and I have heard horrible stories from family members and friends that outweigh that goin on in the political landscape.

In this context private behaviour does reflect on character and in the ADF, character and reliability is everything. It is more than just a minor mistake or natural human flaws of which we are all guilty. These are extreme behaviours not misdemeanours

pelican

First let me say that the behaviour is disgusting. The point I was making is that in my opinion it is no worse than the culture in much of the wider community. With everyone connected on the cyber world iniquity is promoted and embraced by and large by the culture. Why should we be surprised that men or woman for that matter post their sexual conquering exploits for all to see. Porn has convinced many that they are simply sex objects anyway. Why do you think so many teenagers top themselves these days?

Ones personal view and philosophy works out in the public realm. Our current PM is testiment to that fact.

There's something really worrying me about our Armed Forces, and I'm not entirely sure how to put it into words ?

There appears to be a close parallel to what seemed to have occurred with the Victoria Police Force, under the aegis of their then, female Police Commissioner ? Seemingly, it went through a destabilising even a disruptive period of 'Feminization', during her administration ? Consequently the force lost a lot of their very necessary 'Whack' as a result of her misguided policies ?

Therefore, I'm now wondering if, under the pretence of 'equal opportunity' we're now seeing the overall 'Feminization' of our proud Armed Forces ? In my humble opinion, the future consequences of this policy, particularly in say, an Infantry Bn. would prove calamitous !

To all our beloved female contributors, I mean no offence whatsoever to our fairer sex herein. I'm only speaking in practical terms.

o sung wu,

Perhaps "Androgynization" would be a better word.

The problem is that we're not androgynous - and it seems it's having the effect of blokes attempting to boost their macho morale by posting their "conquests" online.

o sung wu

u touch on some really good points. The quota system has led us to probably the most incompetent Government of all time. It must be soul destroying for men putting their lives at risk to be compromised by an idiotic ideology that fail to recognise that their are differences in strength and abilities between men and women. In general woman are much better at some things while men are much better (usually leadership) than women. Most men don't want or respect women trying to act like men no matter what the rhetoric. Having 5 foot 2 policewomen on the beat is a joke to all concerned.

O sung you have hit a nail right on the head.

My youngest daughter has just come home from Darwin, after she has split up with her bloke of 6 years, ever since high school.

He went into the infantry, & had a tour of Afghanistan, before being posted to Darwin. She did not handle the worry of his being in Afghanistan very well.

He recently announced he could no longer hack the ladies army, & it was get out, or join the SAS. As no ladies have ever managed to pass the SAS entrance physical he reckoned he could still enjoy life.

My daughter argued she could not handle the worry of him in the SAS. After some strained months he has joined, & she has left.

This is not an isolated case, many are getting out, as is happening in the navy.

I recently looked at the figures in just the navy. The relationship of officers to ratings is becoming a problem.

There are 4 times as many lady officers to lady ratings, as there are male officers to male ratings. As you know many young officers are far from competent. They need training by their men. The female officers do not react well to their men training them, their dignity gets in the way & they become despised by those met they are supposed to lead.

We are getting far too many men commanded by ladies they can not respect, & are loosing the experience & knowledge required far too rapidly.

My son spent some time training officer cadets before they went to the college, & found an increasing expectation of special easier treatment among the ladies. That would be a big mistake with him. He has a special ability as showing up inadequacies be they in cadets or ships captains. I would have hated having him in a navy division, or army platoon. Unfortunately for commanders, he is too good to let go.

Hello there POIROT...

Lovely to speak with you again. One can't possibly defend their rank stupidity for doing such a thing. Immaturity I suppose ? When I joined the Army (regulars) in the early sixties I was 'silly as a two bob watch' too. I'm sure I'd be stupid enough to promote ALL my 'conquests' in/on whatever medium I could've found ? No computers in those days, certainly none in South Vietnam neither ? I dunno POIROT, I'm sure Army life has changed a lot from half a century ago when I was in, so I can't possibly account for their behaviour today.

I'm just wondering though if what they did is a hanging offence ? I've no doubt I'd be silly enough to engage in similar conduct myself, most of my platoon would've also. Though, some would never have the opportunity to behave in like manner again. Being killed at their FSB near the Long Hai's, kind of a stops all that sort of thing, regrettably ?

Great to speak with you POIROT.

'Even if the diehards cannot see that this is blatantly sexist behaviour, if nothing else it is an invasion of privacy. The act of sex is between individuals and the filming without knowledge or intention to post is a gross betrayal of trust. '

Exactly pelican.

Though I like the question ponderred by hasBeen at the first...

'Why is it OK for the women to do it, but degrading if people see it?
Why is it degrading for women, but not for blokes? '

I don't see it as degrading. I haven't read much on the story, but were there denigrating comments about the women? Or were they being appreciated by voyeurs? It's part and parcel of the sorry mess that women enjoying sex is seen as degrading in and of itself. Suze banging on about degrading the men as some retribution for the appreciation of the female form? Weird.

To me the privacy issue is the only paramount issue. Anyone who sees it as degrading has a problem with women and sex, and is buying into labeling people as 'sluts';

Man posts video of HIMSELF and woman engaged in consenting sex. Somehow people think this is degrading for the woman but not the man. They're both there!

It's about as degrading as women talking to each other about their husband's dick that happens every day. Actually less so, unless of course these women also share the ins and outs of their vaginas at the same time to their mates. Don't say it doesn't happen girls, chicks tell each other everything, the guys are just filming it for good measure.

o sung wu,

I don't necessarily blame them for finding an outlet to reassert their machismo.

In fact, I'm surmising that it might be a natural recourse in males whose territory has been infiltrated by women.

Just reading a little of Camille Paglia, who is a feminist who believes (and admires) that men created art, religion, architecture and civilisation on the run from nature and women...their response to the power invested therein - who writes:

"Androgyny, which some feminists promote as a pacifist blue-print for sexual utopia, belongs to the contemplative rather than active life. It is the ancient prerogative of priests, shamans and artists. Feminists have politicised it as a weapon against the masculine principle. Redefined, it now means men must be like women and women can be whatever they like. Androgyny is a cancellation of male concentration and projection."

Hi there RUNNER...

You're quite correct in your assumption. Once again these damn politicians are meddling in areas they have little knowledge.

Take the current Minister of Defence. Does he have any conception of the deleterious effect that some of the awful policies, he and his bungling mates in Cabinet have thrust upon the entire Defence Department ?

Further, does he realize how those awful policies have a 'ripple down' effect, right to the lowest ranks of, AB's, Pte's, or AC's. Any three of these magnificent personnel could teach the Minister more of the culture, the honour, and mentality of each of the vital 'arms' of our Armed Forces, then he and his useless cabinet mates, would ever know ?

Please Mr Minister, I would respectfully remind you, perhaps you should contemplate carefully, the true gravity of what the words of your portfolio convey;

Your DEFENCE portfolio entails keeping this Nation safe.

In order to DEFEND Mr Minister, one must be fittingly 'ARMED' with suitable weapons. By the overwhelming and strategic use of FORCE. FORCE is defined as Trained Personnel.

Defence is certainly, not a game, neither is it a weekend 'jolly' unlike what many politicians embark upon regularly ? It's serious stuff, with high stakes. The last thing any member of the Defence Force wishes, is some meddling, 'Derek do good' of a Defence Minister, lecturing how they must behave and think, both on and off duty. That task falls squarely on the shoulders of their respective senior officers, not some pathetic dullard of a politician who's never likely to wear 'with honour' a 'starched' set of 'greens' or 'whites' or 'blues' as proud symbol of being a vital and necessary part of this Country's defence force ! God knows you useless bunch, you can't even protect our borders, you incompetent fools !

Yet you have the extraordinary temerity to lecture a group of young, high spirited serviceman on morality ! That Sir is within the exclusive remit of their senior officers, NOT YOURS, EVER !

o sung wu

the incestous Labour party has brought this nation to its lowest point and wants to preach their 'morals' to the army. Sorry mate I share your disgust. I feel very very sorry for young girls if they are looking to the current leaders as role models. I am sure their must be role models somewhere but they certainly never get any press. I just hold a little hope (not much) that the Liberal ladies might be able to lift the bar a fraction. At least they are part of the quota/union/lawyer etc etc. The men nodding their heads behind these woman are just as bad.

Come on Runner, these practices and morals go back much further than the Labor Party. Even our original ANZACs came home riddled with syphilis and had very unsavory reputations when it came to civilian women in war zones.

Nowadays the minds of our soldiers are deliberately altered to remove all compassion so they can burn women and children on our behalf - without remorse and on command - and that glorious knowledge is what what keeps you safe at night.

The real problems begin when they come back home.

For somebody who always bleats on about the sanctity of life you have little grip on the reality that we also kill many more innocent people after they are born and for nothing more than political and financial reasons.

'Come on Runner, these practices and morals go back much further than the Labor Party. '

you may be right Rache but never on the same scale.

Hi (again) HASBEEN...

I'm very sorry to hear of the unfortunate situation that transpired between your Daughter and her partner. As it often happens a veteran returns home from a combat zone, without any form of psychological debriefing or organised 'calming' before he's released back to his unit ? I don't know how you found him yourself HASBEEN, upon his return home ?

Did you have the opportunity to observe both his behaviour and his attitude towards your Daughter ? I'd near bet he was responding to some hidden trigger that prompted some dormant episode of PTSD ? Despite his feelings for your Daughter, the emotional 'pull' to return him back to where all the action is, was too great to overcome his feelings for your Daughter, sadly ?

I spent over three years at the Repat and the Vietnam Veterans' Counselling Service where we had these small group therapy sessions every week or so, where each of us spoke of our respective lives. Many of the blokes didn't work, most were on TPI Pensions. I was still in the job, but I had a 100% Pension. All of us had PTSD, unfortunately. Never mind.

HASBEEN, I'm very very sorry that your Daughter, become a another victim to PTSD, a truly insidious condition ! No hope of them getting back together I suppose, now he's with the SAS, I guess not ?

No o sung, he seamed perfectly OK, & she had no complaints there. He is a bumbling great oaf, who appeared unaffected, & was still as nice a bloke as you could want.

The army don't help much. They posted him to Darwin, so off they go, where she knows no one. Then they have him off on courses in NSW, or Victoria for 5 of the next 8 months.

Perhaps you know there is quite a bit of trouble with some aboriginals in Darwin, which is a worry for a young woman living so much of the time alone. Home invasions are not uncommon, & carjacking is a problem in some areas. She had survived the worry of Afghanistan, but now, even with a big dog, she was frightened for herself alone at night as well.

Even then, with only another 5 months of the Darwin posting, she was expecting some respite from worry. His decision to join the SAS, understandable with what the army is becoming, was the last straw for her. The army needs blokes like him, but she can't handle the army.

I just thank god the split happened before any kids came along to complicate things.

o sung wu,
It seems our lives parallel. I had the benefit of Duntroon but I seem to have missed all the fun. Learned all that stuff in Saigon or back here at the 'Cross' on R&R. Had the hell kicked out of me in the B of Coral-Balmoral, 3RaR then second time around then back to the 'cottages' at Yaralla. Glad I missed the homecoming though. That's how I got into the "Job"
Needed the discipline, the uniform a gun and somebody to tell me what to do with it. The force was my OT. The only females I came in contact with in the military were psych nurses in hospital and then they outranked me anyway.

Hi there CHRIS...

Right, how come they put all the PTSD blokes from Vietnam in these quaint 'cottages' at RGH Concord ? Up until fairly recently it was exactly the same situation down in Melbourne ? A mate of mine, now resident in Melbourne, did his live-in PTSD Course, in the old 'huts' they previously housed Vietnam Vets, at the Repat in Heidelberg ?

They would of course deny it, but prima facie it does seem that Vietnam veterans were adjudged as being 'second class' within the Veteran Community ?

And again you're correct, our lives were somewhat parallel, except you were obviously commissioned (Duntroon), where I...well, perhaps I won't dwell on my lofty military conquests ! Oh one highlight I might share with you, while I spent some leisure time at a beautifully picturesque soldiers resort called, RTB Kapooka, on one of the rare occasions our platoon received weekend leave - I copped one helluva flogging (during 'Interval') behind the picture theatre, in Bayliss Street, Wagga. The lesson, I received that night, I carried right through my time with Her Majesty's NSW Constabulary !

You'd also be aware, many of our blokes were Vets. To the extent, on several ANZAC days there were more than enough to march as a contingent in the Parade, two separate groups, uniform and detectives ! I must admit, I felt proud on the several occasions I marched ? I forgot, Phillip Street (Parking) had their own small (uniform) group, and were included within the coppers contingent !

Now Chris, I dunno mate, I'm fairly bitter. I Have no time for the RSL, I feel the day's (ANZAC) not the same ? I'll leave it at that I think.

The pretty nurses, at Concord or at 1 Field at Vung Tau CHRIS ? I had some topical rash which needed some attention at 1 Field, and there were some real 'lookers' there, and as a young bloke, and with a huge rank disparity, I could only look incredibly sad and lonely whenever they were around ! Didn't work though ! Geeeesh !

Hi there VOTERLAND...

Did I hear correctly, you want these silly young soldiers to be Court Martialled ? Their behaviour is silly, ill-advised, even grossly immature, but to have them face a Court Martial ? God help us !