Pelican I got told a number of times by CSA staff that things are not as bad as they were before Howards reforms. A scary thought.

The relevance for this thread is that what I faced and what others face for much longer periods is a very real practical problem brought on by far more powerful external forces and seemingly with no checks and balances. I had a very real practical problem brought about by the government and with traps at every turn to ensure I could not change the situation. Working longer hours (which I had to) gave me a little extra money but also increased both my tax bill and CSA payments and potentially increased the latter long term regardless of the availability of that extra work depending on the judgement of CSA.

In regard to the point about men being disposable I just noticed a post by ö sung wu which is a good example of the sort of message that is pretty common http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5852#164522
"Those category of offences would include, but not limited to, violence against the mentally disabled, women, children, the elder, and all emergency workers, who are pursuing their duties ?"

Not picking on o sung wu with that BTW, I think he is a decent guy but the post made the point well. That sort of message is repeated in one way or another over and over again in our society.

A lot of men feel that society regards them as disposable, many accept that they are.

R0bert

RObert
I am not dismissing your views and agree with much of what you write. However in trying to understand this phenomenon, I wonder if the 'women and children first' attitude comes from the idea that men were considered in charge and with power comes a greater responsibility to others. Now that society has changed to share that power perhaps it will take a while for some of those other cultural norms to adapt and catch up.

Men are certainly not disposable, a society needs men and women together united against greater tyrannies (if I can put it like that without sounding extreme).

As far as parole goes, it makes sense to judge these matters by the severity of the crime and the risk of re-offending while awaiting trial.

You've got it completely backwards, Pelican. A society has always been defined around its women. Any man can father children by many women and men have no further direct role in the reproductive process once conception has occurred, but they do have a large role in protecting all women and children. A a result, men have arranged society to best suit their protective role, including the hierarchical structures around political power, which exclude the vast majority of men and place them in the role of "cannon fodder", which they willingly fulfil.

The most powerful man will still defer to women in matters that are not directly his responsibility and will cite women and children as his most important responsibility.

The feminist movement has often tried to paint those motivations as somehow tainted, which says a lot that's uncomplimentary about such feminists and has lead to the situation that men are presently facing, where they have essentially no role other then the ones that women don;t want for themselves, while they are not able to compete on equal footing with those women because of their own drive to protect and defend.

It's pernicious and it's dishonest and it's unfair, just as a woman hitting or goading a man is unfair when she knows he is unable to do anything to retaliate, because of either his own biological drives or the law that takes those drives out of the hands of the individual and makes arbitrary rules to enforce them. There is no more any credit given to men who behave as "good" men and don't hit women, because the assumption is that they would if the law didn't exist, which is demonstrably a slander.

R0bert, good post. As I have said previously, the role of men in reproduction does not justify the number of males who are born, unless that reproductive role extends in the form of eusocial roles.I believe that part of a man's eusociality incorporates the notion of his individual expendability and the nobility of doing so to protect the centre where women and children are safe and well-fed.

The present socio-political model takes that masculine sense of having an obligation to the greater good of society for granted. It is based on an expectation that men will willingly sacrifice their own needs so that women and children will not miss out on every possible opportunity and it's not far off the mark in expecting that.

I reckon the CSA disappeared into the DHS because there are increasing numbers of female payers, as women move into senior professional roles and men are less likely to be employed than any time since the 30s. I give the child support scheme as it is no more than 2 terms of government before the senior female public servants and lawyers put pressure on to abolish or significantly change it.

Anti
Your summaries make sense but don't forget women's experience of violence as well. Acknowledging some women experience violence is not an indictment about the nature of men and I certainly agree that violence towards men from women is not acknowledged in the same way and is under-reported.

I understand your basic argument and it certainly bodes to the confusion many men now have about their roles in society. This is an important aspect particularly for older men. It would be interesting to get young men to comment and see if their experiences and expectations are different. I only have minimal contact with young men but I sense there is still some mixed messages and confusions.

Antiseptic, driving home today I heard the radio add for the Man Therapy site again and it occurred to me that you and I are not their target demographic. I think that we both spend a fair bit of time thinking about what we think and trying to understand our own emotions, thoughts, drives etc. The adds are build on stereotypes of men who don't do that.

I can't say that I know any men well who I think would actually fit the demographic but that could be a lot to do with my interests and age. For me the stereotypes used in the adds leave me with the impression that if thats how they see men they are unlikely to be able to offer me anything in a crisis.

Not sure if I commented earlier in the thread, I had a look at the website. A lot of Americanism's in the material I saw, some reasonable suggestions but overall it left me with a sense of gloss rather than a determined effort to understand and connect with Australian men.

Feeling like I'm being very negative about what could be a genuine attemp to reach out to help, maybe those behind it do know what they are doing but its not the impression I get.

R0bert