According to recent reports 33 men between the ages of 14 and 44 suicide every week. It is the highest cause of death for men and about 80% of suicides are by men.

Recent news reports list a new organisation - Man Therapy - that targets men specifically http://mantherapy.org/ and is supported by Beyond Blue.

ABC article: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-05/beyond-blue-launches-campaign-to-tackle-mental-health-in-men/4735546

This site uses humour to connect specifically with Aussie men to encourage them to seek help. The motivating force is the premise that men traditionally find it more difficult to share their feelings with family and friends. What do others think of the campaign. I am glad to see this important health issue being addressed and targeted in this way. I hope the campaign is successful.

Support organisations as follows:

http://mantherapy.org/
http://www.beyondblue.org.au/
http://www.mensheds.org.au/
http://www.lifeline.org.au/

Pelican a notable subject that had traditionally been hidden away by both the sufferer and those they cl interact with. Isolation is the product of depression be it clinical or social depression and we blokes know how to isolate, also how to brood on ourselves, so any program that fosters sharing is welcomed.

But males were not raised to share so the likelihood of sharing our most agonizing thoughts is slim, hence the suicides. As I experience it there are two forms of depression, clinical depression that occurs when there is not a black cloud in the sky and social depression brought about by personal upheaval such as in bankruptcy or losing your family in a custody battle. The loss brings on depression in some.

In clinical depression you need drugs and support. In social depression you need support and perhaps some drugs, but getting the horse to the trough is the mountain. If we know someone close or in passing and they show signs of depression, take an interest in them, not on their problems in particular, just in them, it helps. The blokes will open up sooner or later and begin to see clarity and reason.

Pelican

thanks for starting this thread. unfortunately though many disagree, the problem is just as much spiritual health as it is mental health. Drugs and counsel can cover the pain many men feel but can't remove it. It is similar to women who have been sexually abused as children. Only peace with One's Maker and inner healing can restore to life beyond existing.

Only peace with One's Maker and inner healing can restore to life beyond existing.
runner,
Less Government interference & fleecing us would be even better. I'm presently trying to get an area to be freed up for recreation but you would not believe the restrictions the authorities put up simply as to not have to be responsible, they don't mind their pays though.
Labor started this nonsense & the Coalition seems to not move a finger either. I hope Clive's lot has more in the Gonad department. It definitely would be a healthy change from the crew-cut asexuals of the past 20 years.

Pelican my impression is that there is little willingness by government to understand the causes of suicide so whilst I welcome anything which might help I have the strong suspicion that without a better understanding of the issues the effectiveness will be limited.

My own suspicion is that the family law system plays a big part but I've yet to see any analysis of the proportion of men attempting suicide who are dealing with family law or CSA issues. As I've suggested previously perhaps a better understanding would come from death rates as some accidents can be hard to be certain about.

I reached a point where I sought help last year after coming back into contact with CSA and not coping with the impact on my life. The problem was that although the service I contacted could give a sympathetic ear they could do nothing to change the situation. I was fortunate that I had other support in my life, what I needed was a fix to an ongoing abuse perpetrated by the government. Thankfully my circumstances changed as there was no safety net in the system. I made a point of letting CSA and others know that I wasn't coping and it did not elicit any follow up to address that side of things.

My impression is that most men can and will cope if given the chance to sort out a problem, to make the necessary changes in their life to get on with it. We don't do so well when the government had made it a mission to ensure that does not fix anything.

R0bert

Sometimes it is harder to live than to die. Many of us have been to this place and some take the easy option, which I understand. When you know who or what are your true oppressors,then it will all change.

No one chooses to end their lives based on a whim. It is a serious decision based on hopelessness and we are all responsible.

"Pelican my impression is that there is little willingness by government to understand the causes of suicide "

I cant agree.

I see it all as a bit of a paradox. I observe an innate inability for anyone in the appropriate industry to reach out to a certain, very common type of man without patronizing and emasculating and alienating him.

It's almost as if anyone in that type of touchy feely caring profession cannot possibly relate to a great many men, and it is akin to an old fogey trying to be cool with the kids by asserting they like a very daggy pop music band.

On the macro level, I have seen the absolutely cringe-worthy attempts by NGO and government to 'reach out' to men with mental health issues.

On the micro level, I personally found I was totally unable to be helped in any way, could not find anyone with the right manner, or the barest of insight into my mindset, took the drugs, went off them, manipulated therapists, went back on them, was further depressed by how easy it was and how amateur and clueless people were, enjoyed it, self medicated, developed my own coping mechanisms, and generally came to a well rounded conclusion that not everything is a problem or condition, some people are just different, and life is a rollercaster, and my realty is just as valid and infinitely more entertaining than the sensible people with sound emotional and mental health.

The sanest people sometimes are the ones who have trouble reconciling the realty of their situation against the official fiction and the eternal lies.

BTW: I did find it very telling in one article I remember on OLO, where the central reason promoted for having a mens health initiative was because of the effect on women of men neglecting their physical and mental health.

PS: Kudos to pelican for avin-a-go.

Sorry peli,

Exhibit A from your links...

' They are the victims of problematic thinking that says mental health disorders are unmanly signs of weakness.'

1. Don't use the word victim.
2. Don't insult people's intelligence.
3. Don't patronize well valued masculine identity.

Three strikes!

FFS!

As Walter said to Lebowski, they're a bunch of f6ckn amateurs!

Translation of the above:

You're a bit of a silly old dinasaur, it's actually quite cute, we know you think you're a man but you're a pathetic simpleton and we need to re-educate you on the correct way to identify as masculine, and tell you it's ok if you want to have a cry and a bit of a cuddle. In a manly kinda way of course. High five! Bro!

Best coming from a man with Tats, to keep it real!

Welcome to Man Therapy?

Seriously?

..

..

yeah.... seriously? Wow. All I can say.

Wow.

Yes I have 2 men in my life who suffer from depression, and it has been hard going through it with them.

I am all for any program or initiative that will assist those with mental pain.
So far, the Governments have not seen mental health issues in quite the same light as physical health issues.

Many men are not good at talking about their inner pain, whereas I believe they feel every bit as bad as women with mental anguish.

They just need to be given permission to express their feelings without being labeled 'soft' or 'sissy' by unfeeling so-called friends or family members.

The worst people who make it hard for men to share their problems are other men.

If we were to ensure there was an advertising campaign about male depression as aggressive as the anti-smoking campaign, we might get somewhere...

What money has the government given or is it to be all voluntary and by donation?

Not sure I can express what I think on this subject.
One that has confronted me my whole working life.
Too many went home from work and killed them selves.
I will try,we changed about the time of the pill, and not always for the better.
Increasingly men are, in my view, slaves not husbands.
Now lets not get too upset, noway I am anti woman.
But controlling ones exist, and some men are victims.
I see men get home from work, to begin work, cleaning cooking and being shouted at.
And on weekends being dragged off to buy on credit, the big new but unneeded thing.
Tough men hard men, but still putty in the hands of the *boss*

I think you're correct, Belly. There's little hope of men fulfilling their primordial role of protector/provider in today's society, so they feel useless. Another cause is the group of gays who're just sick of hiding for fear of exposure and ridicule - many more men than people realise are family men with children. Their secret lives become a burden too great to bear. As for youths, the reason half of all youth suicides are gays is obvious - religious bigotry, taunting and bullying from teachers, pupils and parents

This is obviously a very personal issue for many men.

SOG
Yes a media campaign will not necessarily lead to men seeking help.

I hope some do but I tend to think these health campaigns are about governments trying to do something about very real problems and having to display their work. I believe Man Therapy is a joint government and Beyond Blue project. That is probably cynical but I should add, on a more positive note, that these types of campaigns over the years have raised the profile of mental health issues. That in itself may lead more people to even just talk about their problems to family or friends. I listened to a talk given by Jeff Kennett about four years ago and Beyond Blue has done a great job in raising the profile of depression.

As a woman I don't purport to know what men think or feel but I agree with some of the comments that there is a patronising or generalising tone inherent in some of the material as summarised in Houlley's comments.

runner
I don't disagree with you at all about the spiritual aspects and many people of faith will be able to talk to their priest or pastor about personal issues. And many will find comfort in their beliefs which may help them live with mental health issues more easily.

individual
Less government interference in some areas is probably warranted but I do think in a social democratic system the benefits of available health services is a good one. Any of us may find ourselves in need of help one day. Whether this extends to government advertising on these issues is another matter. My hope is that as individuals if we notice somebody's distress or problems that we would try and help them. Depression does not always show itself so obviously.

RObert
Understanding cause is the most important aspect of tackling any problem otherwise it is just fumbling around. Marriage breakdown and all the accompanying legal processes would be a leading cause of depression. I can imagine the fear of being separated from one's children would be a primary factor. At least these days there is more custodial sharing but I imagine there is still some way to go and room for improvement. I feel inadequate to talk about family law because I have never gone through the process and my knowledge is gleaned more from reading and speaking to a variety of groups and individuals. I hope you have found some peace and relief since your own experiences.

Houlley
I always like your reliable no-nonsense approach. When I first watched the Ads it came as a bit of a jolt - it was as if it was an obvious attempt at reverse psychology. I reckon if you are going to put forward a men's based campaign it should be men involved in the planning. Who better to understand even if one accepts the fact that men will also come at a problem based on their own experiences. I get the impression that this was a campaign developed by men for men. I am not sure why, maybe it was purely on the basis that Jeff Kennett spoke on it.

The main point you make is as I read it - is it possible for any campaign to reach it's audience. RObert's point about looking first to causes would go much further in reducing suicide rates. Here one would have to differentiate between chemical causes and event based causes. A big job no doubt and would take in issues too insurmountable about social and family structures, economics and social norms etc. Bandaid approaches must seem easier for governments

Suse
You are right about the lack of profile of mental health issues until more recently. Really mental health issues are all physical issues ie. of the body. I hope your family is getting the support it needs. It is important to look to your own health as well during this time but you already know that. :)

Arjay
One way I found that helps me is to live outside the system as much as possible. Even if you have to work within it there is a way of compartmentalising which helps. I don't have clinical depression but have experienced depression for a short time that was triggered by events and gets carried along with you for a while. For me I found contentment in simple things like developing a huge food forest in the backyard and getting involved in activism in a subject I feel strongly about. I am fine now with only fleeting moments of anger more than depression. But they are fleeting.

Belly and ybgirp
There may be something in what you say about the changing role of men and women in society and how men have adapted to those changes. Particularly older men who find themselves at odds with these changes, so different to their upbringing. We are all products of our generation. And there are all those questions about what it means to be masculine or feminine and we all may have differing views about that. Speaking to my male friends there are no two opinions the same.

Belly, I don't think it is fair to always bring up the notion that all woman are bad and nagging wives as though this is the norm. For me, this one-sided approach is unfair and as bad as the radical feminist dogma (rare that it is) that sees men as evil doers. Both these approaches are self-serving and achieve nothing IMO.

Belly I just re-read your post and you did make the caveat about your personal experiences and women. Apologies if I generalised your feelings.

Dear Pelican,

Thank You for this thread.

The campaign is an excellent one and should
be strongly supported. As we've learned
from the past gender-linked personality
traits each had their own advantages and
disadvantages. Women, for example did not
have to worry about constant competition in the
"rat race." Their role used to be to marry a man
who was willing and able to support them.

Men on the other hand had relatively greater access
to wealth, power, and prestige. They earned more
money, controlled more of their environment and
experienced a range of career and other opportunities
that were beyond the reach of most women.

However, as we're beginning to learn the tremendous
stress asssociated with a life of competition,
repressed feelings and fear of failure does take its
toll. The statistics tell the story.

Compared to women, men have a higher suicide rate, a
higher rate for severe mental disorders, and a much
higher rate for alcoholism. According to recent surveys,
men commit over 80 percent of all serious crimes, and
constitute over 90 percent of prison inmates.

They are likely to suffer stress-related diseases such
as ulcers, hypertension, and asthma.

The bleakest statistic is life expectancy: the average
male dies seven years sooner than the average
female. It is hard to believe that this catalogue of woes
applies to the group that in the past at least was
supposed to be in the upper stratum in society.

They need and deserve our support.

Thanks Lexi
I read somewhere that many of the male inmates in prison suffer from mental health issues. It would indeed be a preventive measure if these health concerns were addressed before the inevitable consequences. In a perfect world... maybe.

This is all too cerebral.

The problem is the speed limits. Just let the poor blokes go for a hundred miles an hour squirt down the road once a week, & all will be well.

He'll come back, if he does, with a smile from ear to ear, & depression will be gone. We can produce our own happy drugs given a chance.

If this is too much for you, take the poor bugger to a track day once a month. Anyone can go, with a few bits of gear. Sure he may roll the family hatch, but if he's not nagged about that, he won't care.

Oh, & girls, if you really want to reach out to a bloke, for god sake shut your mouths, & use another part of your anatomy. Many blokes will be very surprised, even shocked at such an offering, but if the shock doesn't give them a heart attack, they will be smiling & happy quite soon.

It really doesn't take too much to make a bloke happy, but you have to approach it from a blokes perspective, & do it SLIENTLY.

{Sorry ladies, but some times the truth just has to be told}

Hell, I think I've bitten my tongue while posting that.

"It is hard to believe that this catalogue of woes
applies to the group that in the past at least was
supposed to be in the upper stratum in society."

Lexi thats more to do with feminist dogma than the reality for most men.

The majority of men are not the boss at work or home, their lives have been to various degrees spent providing for wives and children. There are the exceptions who provide the images used to prop up that image of men as generally priviliged.

To my view that particular myth is part of the problem, the ugliest things done to actual men are seen as some kind of redress for the imagined privilege of all men.

Warren Farrells "The Myth of Male Power" is worth a read whatever you think of the man himself.

R0bert

Sir Winston Churchill was once told by that stuck up old tart Lady Astor this.
If I was your wife I would poision you!~
His reply?
If that was so I would drink it!
I would mix it myself if wed to a couple here.
That taunt under mine came from the bigoted view all men are B*&^%DS.
Truth hurts but I withdraw nothing, some not most, but too many women do great harm to their man.
Some? penis envy? see only bad in men but never in females.

Ahoy there, Belly...

Here was I thinking this thread was reasonably balanced, with some concern shown for situation regarding men in our society.

Your most recent comment seems a little out of context - or have I missed something?

Dear RObert,

I was referring historically - when the system
constrained people.
Our society today is more individualistic
and more open to change and choice.

Most of us today value a person's individual
human qualities, rather than his or her
biological sex. And those qualities are the
primary measure of that person's worth and
achievment.

Of course I'm merely expressing a subjective
point of view based on my own experiences.

Here's a simple question.

What is something that our society values highly that is seen as an essentially male characteristic, rather than as an indicator of personal qualities that may be irrelevant to masculinity?

Don Ritchie,

http://gawker.com/5563648/meet-the-australian-whos-saved-160-people-from-suicide

No sense in listening to him I suppose.

What some might consider too is the continuing spike in male suicide in country Australia. Some here are aware of the daily struggle to wrest a living from the soil and the gross, savage restructuring that has destroyed so many lives and families. In another culture the responsibnility and accountability shown by those men for their loved ones and their ceaseless striving to produce food for millions might be celebrated as raw courage, the stuff of good citizens, and they might get some recognition and support. Not so in Australia, apparently.

Lastly, many of the men who need support cannot afford it. It is all very right to dismiss the 'promlem' of suicidal men by saying it is OK now, they have been told they ought to get help. But only patronising feminists and fools would believe that men don't already know that. The usual problem is how to pay for it because there is no government support as there is for women.

There is a distinct absence of funding and real support for men's issues. Until then it is all window dressing and sweeping more dust under the rug.

The pity is that once upon a time, support would have been forthcoming simply from the concentric circles of community.....not so anymore, as now it's called "service" and institutionalised.

So the same system that's responsible for alienation is also charged with picking up the pieces.

It's just scavenging contaminants that disrupt the smooth flow of goods and money, Poirot. Men who are disaffected and have no social connection are dangerous to have around and even more dangerous as evidence that the corporatist/feminist model that produced them is inherently a negative-sum proposition - it costs more than it creates and in the process it damages lives. The preferred way to deal with that damage up until recently has been to devalue men to little better than animals that need to be controlled, but that hasn't worked as intended, so it's "Man Therapy" for the defective specimens to teach them how to be happy as societal waste products.

Dear Antiseptic,

You asked, "what is something that our society
values highly that is seen as an essentially male
characteristic, rather than as an indicator of
personal qualities that may be irrelevant to
masculinity?

I'm not sure if this is what you want to hear- but
I'd have to say - the male anatomy, or physical
structure and appearance. The most important of
these distinctions, of course, is in the
reproductive systems. Of course there's other
anatomical characteristics such as height,
weight, amount of body hair, distribution of body
fat, and musculature. These distinctions are
socially important, both because they make it easy
to recognise an individual's sex and because
they may determine the physical attractiveness of
a particular male.

<To begin to understand suicide in men we need to acknowledge the psychobiological and cultural realities and demands on men’s lives, as described by Ashfield (2010).

The practice of blaming men for ‘holding in their emotions’ and ‘not seeking help’, and calls for changes to the traditional male role, sounds plausible but is, at best, lazy and simplistic. It is a view that conveniently avoids dealing with the more complex issues of male suicide, and is one that is ignorant of biology, and offensively dismissive of the lived reality of most men’s lives – what society expects of them, and what they must try to be to meet these expectations.

Let us act on what we know with compassion, respect and hope and continue to build the knowledge base to address the huge gender disparity in suicide.>

from 'Insights into Men's Suicide'
Australian Psychological Society Aug 2012

Thanks for that, Lexi. While I was mostly being rhetorical, I am interested to see if there is any social credit applied to masculine stereotypes or maleness as a defining property.

I suspect that your response is a fair one and reflects the fact that the qualities which were valued in a life partner and which defined men as inherently socially valuable are atavistic in the current social structure. The physical features you mentioned have diminished to mere sexual signals, instead of an indication of physical prowess valuable for what it could make possible. Even sperm will become inessential as research into conception using two ova proceeds.

onthebeach, thanks for that, it supports my view that this is not a genuine effort to address the male suicide problem.

Well well, I'm listening to this podcast as I type, Dean Esmay, Erin Pizzey, Christina Hansen and Tom Golden discuss Men's issues and take calls, I believe they cover most of what this thread alludes to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poCsP3g9Ob8

It is a serious decision based on hopelessness and we are all responsible.
Arjay,
Spot-on, much of such hopelessness was created by the Rudd/Gillard team & in Qld by Goss/Beatty/Bligh. The sad part is that they wouldn't have been able to do it without the help of 51% of the electorate. Sad indictment indeed !

Yes I have 2 men in my life who suffer from depression,
Suseonline,
Why don't you do something about changing your mentality then ? You'd be surprised how quickly they'll recover.

Lexi the system restrained people of both genders especially if you were not at the top of the pile.

I don't know how far back you have to go in our culture to get a situation of genuine privilige for most men and I'm really over seeing that assertion tossed around especially without qualifiers.

It seems to contribute to the overall sense of it does not matter much to what you do to me today because they have been priviliged in past.

Pelican once I got CSA off my back it was largely problem solved. It was a practical issue of an agenda driven government program which does not have any concept of fair treatment rather than primarily a mental health issue.

Some other bits in the mix added to the stress but for the most part I have options with them by working around the problem, just realities of life - a less secure eployment situation than I had and too many stories of older workers finding it very difficult to get work added to my concern over what was done to me.

Despite the widespread angst amongst men at the gendered implementation of family law and CS there never seems to be any willingness to investigate the impacts of those systems on male health and suicide rates. It seems to be an issue no-one with the resources to do so wants to touch.

R0bert

R0bert, back around 2003 I suffered a severe reactive depression during the third of the court matters brought by the ex out of the 6 that she would eventually pursue, all funded by Legal Aid on her side and by me on mine. I had just sacked my lawyer as I was almost out of money and she was not doing as asked anyway, so I was self-reprsented.

At the same time I was involved in a long and very bitter fight with the CSA, who seemed determined to send me broke. When I tried to point this out I was told "bankruptcy doesn't change anything, you'll still have a debt to us". Since the debt was because I'd spent all my money on lawyers that was like a kick in the teeth.

I saw a psychiatrist who diagnosed reactive depression and said "You've got every reason to feel lousy. If you didn't I'd be very concerned."

He went on to say that he had a contract to provide services to the CSA and that he saw several staff each week. It seems to me that those staff are in an impossible position, since they know the reality of many paying parents is that the money taken from them makes their situation untenable (not so much these days) and that if they become unemployed they will probably remain that way, but they have to follow the draconian process regardless.

Anybody but the most rabidly antisocial ideologue would find that difficult to deal with.

Nobody wins, it's a negative sum game.

RObet, Antiseptic, Individual, Belly... you say it well.
Lexi, your response to Antiseptic's question:- "What is something that our society values highly that is seen as an essentially male characteristic, rather than as an indicator of personal qualities that may be irrelevant to masculinity?" reduced male worth to an instrument to provide women with babies. And that, unfortunately, is how most women now see men, which is why they're prepared to dump their spouses and keep the kids away from them without giving a toss for their sperm-provider's feelings. If a man's physical appearance is so important, why then don;t women complain at the fashions that decree males may never show their thighs - even when swimming, and never expose any other part of their body except when swimming?

Dear ybgirp,

My previous answer was in response to Antiseptic's
question. And I thought it was fairly obvious
as to why I chose that area in reply.

I, like many women I know, admire the male body
but our admiration does not stop there. There's
much more to admire. For me
personally - I like a man who's mysterious,
sensitive, and strong. I love tenderness, but
it is the rarest emotion one encounters.

Dear Antiseptic,

I'm so sorry to read about your bad experience with lawyers
and your depression. You've had a lot to deal with - and
yet by the sound of it - you've remained quite positive.
To me that indicates that you've got the strength to
come out of all this - and you'll do well.
I hope that I'm right. I wish you well.

Dear RObert,

Thanks for broadening the discussion.
It's interesting to see things from various perspectives.
And you always present both sides of the coin.

ah, Lexi, it was all long ago and (not very) far away and much untreated sewage has passed under the bridge for lawyers to process since then. My interest in the way our society works is from my attempts to understand why my nation had allowed itself to arrive at the position it had, when the stated intent of policies was to create fairness and they quite obviously didn't.

I'm a committed logical positivist. I think everything is ultimately knowable and that contradictions are the key to noticing when our understanding is at odds with reality.

It's what keeps me within sight of sanity - most of the time.

Some posters here are deeply depressing but I won't give up yet getting them to take off their blinkers. Most won't. History shows us that some people will never be inclined to think about more than themselves hence to social, political & economic situation this world is in. Greed & prejudice are everywhere, it can't be eliminated. what could be eliminated though is the dumbing down the masses through education & the hype of sport.
From my own observations I found that the lack of physical effort on a regular basis is a major part of mental problems. The mind can be stimulated to some extent without physical effort but satisfaction comes from seeing something actually done. Just look at how people with gardens or restoring things are far more balanced then those who just do saturation reading without an ounce of imagination.
Obesity is one of those results which in turn results in loss of self esteem & social isolation.
Sport is good but it has been hijacked by couch potatoes with only profit in mind resulting in fit young people carrying on like monkies. One thing that gets to me particularly here in Australia that they simply can't engage in any activity without turning it into a competition. We used to have just plain fun laying soccer or skiing or being on the lakes or rivers. Not an ounce of competition visible for miles. I suppose that's one of the differences in mentality between cultures.

Dear individual,

I strongly disagree with your take on reading.
Literature offers us images to live with.
Not only does literature provide images to
live with, it provides knowledge to strengthen:
the "hard" knowledge of fact and data, and
the "soft" knowledge of the human heart - facts
about human behaviour that cannot be isolated in
a laboratory but which can be experienced.

I know about a nine-year old boy living in Broken
Hill in the Australia of the Great Depression
reading "Treasure Island." He came to recognise
that villainy can wear an attractive black patch.
Then after reading "The Children of the New Forrest,"
He not only learned something of the geography and history
of England, but became a confirmed and ardent Royalist,
inwardly refuting his teacher's attempts to instill an
admiration of Cromwell and his Roundheads. To this day
he would prefer a dapper Cavalier dandy to a Puritan
zealot. And later literature presented him with options
of human belief and behaviour from which to choose.

It isn't just one book but a host of reading experiences
of good, bad, and indifferent literature which provides
a means of weighing one's life against a wider social
context.

lexi,
of course there are individuals who are the exception. I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about the wider community, the basic wage-earning but wealth-providing consumers who are being treated like a necessary nuisance by the self-appointed educated but very ignorant of integrity elite who maggot off that wealth.
Being educated should also mean being intelligent, considerate & knowledgeable of the unspoken & unwritten protocol that decent people have built in but which has been educated out the mentality of the educated.

Dear individual,

Academics have to work hard to earn their wages.
Contrary to what you espouse.
Also, they probably get paid much less than any
tradie. They have to put in long hours
and they often have little security in their jobs.
If funding is cut off to their Departments,
they lose their jobs.

From reading
your posts it would appear that you think only those
who haven't been to university are worth anything -
and that's something I strongly disagree with.
Getting any sort of education is not easy - I know -
I worked damn hard for mine - while working full-time
and raising a family. Studying anything is hard work.
The main thing is - to be a decent human being -
and that's a worthwhile pursuit for anyone - including
you. So stop with your anti-academic rants - they're
begining to wear a bit thin.

Individual, may I ask what job you think I do?

Why shouldn't boys and men have similar access to the sort of services and support that women and girls expect and are delivered?

No B.S. and eschew the bitchy remarks, just a factual argument please. For any who say that society now values humans as humans that should be easy to do. Depression for example, only knows gender through its higher incidence for males. Obviously, suicide is the same. But that is not the case in all societies.

Individual, you have a real problem with university educated people don't you?
I don't think you can tar all people of one group with the same brush.
You will get inconsiderate people from all walks of life.

Maybe you need to widen your knowledge of different people in your society instead of spending all your time with the gloriously uneducated?

Onthebeach, "Why shouldn't boys and men have similar access to the sort of services and support that women and girls expect and are delivered?".

You ask a question, and then send out negative vibes before anyone even answers!
Boys and men DO have access to the same services as women and girls, except they are singularly more reluctant to seek out and go to them.

Women are the ones who are often responsible for the men and boys in their lives being hounded into availing themselves of this help, so don't go on about "...oh woe is me, I'm a male and nobody wants to help me!"

Go out and find it...because help is out there...

Individual, you have a real problem with university educated people don't you?
Suseonline,
Yes because I cop their ignorance on a daily level. They try to tell us what todo but we're the ones who make things work. I'm talking about engineers, CEO's bureaucrats, school teachers, people in authority in general who let us down constantly & cost the taxpayer a fortune. And yes they do work hard as you say, at self preservation with others' money that is.
Antsceptic,
How should I know what you do, I'm in the essential service industry which is utterly mismanaged by uni degree bearing incompetents.

Suseonline, Lexi et al,
I think you're confusing real scholars with average academics. It's grossly demeaning to put scholars in the same basket as the basket cases.

Individual, at the moment I drive a truck. It's easy work that doesn't require much thought to do and it allows me plenty of time to think and as a bonus I quite enjoy driving. It's not especially well paid but I've been there and done that and my needs are pretty small.

Perhaps you are a bit keen to pigeonhole?

I'm sorry to read about your industry. The rise of managerialism and its process obsession has been a curse.

Perhaps you are a bit keen to pigeonhole?
Antisceptic,
Well, when they come out of the same mould then they invariably also fit into the same pidgeonhole. What the defenders of incompetence & exploitation need to realise & then accept is the fact that the majority of Uni degree holders are not an asset to our society, they are a burden & an expensive one at that. They are the ones interfering in peoples' lives because they think they know everything better but they don't, we have the proof.
They are the ones looking down at those who are doing the actual work. They are in general nothing more than do-gooders with not an ounce of sense. These are the academics I have to deal with on a daily basis & I have had a gut full of them. Like that medical Superintendent who said me many years ago "How can you be stressed, you're only a worker". That mentality is even more prevalent nowadays as more & more degrees are available easier & easier. Just wait when the price of cornflakes goes down, every Tom, Dick & Harry will have a degree & the degree of stupidity will be unmeasurable.

Individual, I have a lengthy background in science and engineering and I've been in management as well as self-employment. People interacted with me in various ways, but always with the underlying assumption that I had certain qualities, even if they didn't know me. I'm now a truck driver and people interact with me on the basis of their assumption of a different set of qualities. I try hard not to disturb their set of assumptions, because people get uneasy when they can't work out where someone fits in.

In my previous roles I had to take responsibility for the actions of others and direct them to achieve various outcomes. I was under the tension formed by the expectations of those up the chain of command, whether boss or bank and the tensions of those below, which are often fundamentally opposed.

In this role, I have only to do a simple task. Sometimes there are time pressures or traffic is bad, but managing those is part of my task. My boss simply expects me to do it when he directs me to and so I have no tension in my role except what I create for myself or is a natural part of the job.

You may not realise just how much tension those "pointy-heads" are under and how well off you are by comparison. My feeling is that your tension is created by underresourcing to do the task required of you, which probably also applies to them, while they are under additional tension because of their place in the hierarchy. There are two ways to deal with that tension for you. Keep applying tension back up the chain and hope it leads to more resources in a bid to remove it, or just accept that its something that is part of your task to work around.

It does no good to worry about things you can't influence, it just makes you less able to deal with the things you can.

Onthebeach,
A good question, the answer to which is, there is no good reason. But then there is no good reason for most human activity. No reason for anything in fact. We're here along with all the rest of life obeying evolved urges to procreate and keep warm and safe. If you look for reason you'll lose it.

Antsceptic,
firstly I made a typo which should read immeasurable. secondly, yes I do realise that managers are under a lot of stress but I'm not talking about normal managers. I'm talking about bureaucrats paid by our tax dollar for nothing but incompetence & more costs in return.
Most of their stress is in pulling the wool over the eyes of their superiors & not in juggling public funding competently. If they did we wouldn't be in the pits as we are.
It is the culture of the public service to look after nr 1 first & last. Until we change the situation it'll only get worse.
I & my colleagues get into situations where whole communities rely on our ability to find a quick way out of a dilemma with only hours available. No parts at hand for several days etc.
Then there are the Uni degree bureaucrats who rather than make an on-the-spot decisions will "leave it to us" to sort it all out. Months later they pound their chests at some conference on what a great job they do & the ignorant public servants in the South swallow the crap hook, line & sinker. And, yes you can pidgeohole them with confidence.

Ah, now I get it. You feel underappreciated, which is creating a strain in your relationship with those in the hierarchy.

I'd say there's not much you can do about that, except learn to live with it or quit. The problem with being at the end of a hierarchy is that you're pulled between it and your own task, so either you flexibly give with the pull and let it dissipate, or you resist, which means you have to deal with a lot of internal stress, such as feeling unappreciated and that the ones applying it are flawed, rather than simply passing the stress on from above.

Let it go, mate. Life's too short.

Dear individual,

By the sound of it, it seems that you have a problem
with people who are in charge and who give you
orders, or as you put it, tell you what to do.
Sounds like there's an awful lot of resentment
coming from you to authority - a bit of an
inferiority complex there - at least that's the
way you're coming across.
Have you never been in charge? Is that what's
causing all this resentment?

You blame CEOs, management, et al. And dump them
all in as "academics, because they have certain
credentials.

Don't you realise as I've tried to point out in the
past that higher credentials are necessary because of
the value the job markets place on them. And that
the actual things that make for a successful career
things like - initiative, leadership, drive,
negotiating ability, willingness to take risks,
persuasiveness - these are things that aren's taught
in universities. People either have the talent -
or pick up the necessary
skills on the job, not in the classroom.

As for giving order? - the people that you criticise
are simply doing the job they were hired to do.
They are exercising their
professional judgement. This is the responsibility their
organisations, boards, shareholders, staff, et cetera expect
of them.

I really can't understand your logic.

You feel underappreciated,
They are exercising their
professional judgement. This is the responsibility their
organisations, boards, shareholders, staff, et cetera expect
Antisceptic & Lexi,
I used to think of you as being less ignorant as you portray yourselves but it appears now beyond doubt that I was wrong.
I'll stress again that it is not about me as you trying to make it look like to avert the focus from the real issues. It's about taxpayer funded wasting of resources & monies. The people I mention are ALP through & through even though some of them are trying to distance themselves from the ALP in the presence of Qld Coalition Govt ministers.
These people were originally hired by ALP cronies in Fed & State & Local Govt & they are still not performing to the standard their degrees supposed to. They got these positions because as you said Lexi, their credentials made them supposedly "qualify". Well guess what ? They're not up to scratch & that Anti & Lexi is my gripe not the silly notion of me having a "problem" with authority. Authorities have & are a problem amongst themselves or can't you see that either. Give me a competent academics & I'll give them credit as they deserve. Give me the morons we have & I discredit them as they deserve.

Everyone with whom individual disagrees, (especially if they represent "authority") is classified quick smart as either moronic, stupid, incompetent, ignorant - whatever......

Take your pick.

Indy, all that may be true, but what can be done about it from your end? I know exactly what you mean, I've been upset about the same sort of thing myself, but in the end I had to accept it wasn't my problem and that allowing it to bother me was not going to make it better.

As I said at the start, it comes down to a culture that is driven by process at every level, including selection of staff. The process isn't interested in what the outcome is, just that it is done in a certain way. So everybody is following their own little script, which defines how their performance is assessed and it becomes impossible to do anything that conflicts with the process.

Since you see yourself as an individual, like I do, you find that frustrating and you feel unappreciated, because the best you can achieve is defined by the process and you can see flaws which you aren't able to fix.

It's a problem everywhere, but I suppose that's not much comfort.

RObert
Glad to see those pressures were releived after the family issues were resolved.

Antiseptic
'What is something that our society values highly that is seen as an essentially male characteristic, rather than as an indicator of personal qualities that may be irrelevant to masculinity?'

There is much confusion these days about what it is to be masculine and a lot of mixed messages. What some men find confronting others may not. There is also no discourse on what is essentially valuable as 'feminine'. We seem to be in a state of flux but what we do with that is ultimately up to us.

It is a complex question, my gut feeling for what it's worth is that women and men ultimately want and need the same things. Love, respect, stability, friendship - you know... the usual stuff that makes us human.

I think the qualities that were highly prized in society that were considered uniquely male such as 'protector' has changed somewhat just as the role of female as 'nurturer'. We are now all fodder for the productivity agenda.

Another question we should ask, should men or women be shackled by societal expectations whether it be protectors or nurturers. Maybe this new approach will make it easier for men and women to make choices that suit their needs, and find complementary partners. It is easy enough to ignore any negative undercurrent ie. where one might choose a path different from the prevailing norm that might be considered lesser. But it is only an undercurrent and one that is easy to dismiss because really the majority of people do possess something resembling commonsense.

How much influence do most of us have on the status quo. The best any of us can do is live by example. And find a way to deal with situations and live life as much as is possible according to each their needs and ideals.

Even if we ask men of different ages what it means to be masculine there would no doubt be many different answers.

Dear individual,

As we know, bad and ineffective managers (and workers)
exist in every organisation. However as Anti pointed
out - one has to find coping strategies in order to
keep your job, and your sanity.

I've found it helpful to keep notes, dates, a record of
incidents, et cetera. It's harder if you confront the
boss with detailed data when being accused of something.
It also helps to be clear about performance measures.
Having objective standards and meeting them is harder
for someone in charge to rate you poorly. Also keep
track of your accomplishments - using objective measures
and by all means maintain your connections to other
people within the company, as well as outside the company.
Having a network of colleagues is helpful, should you
decide to leave (or transfer to another department) when
looking for another job.

Instead of blaming others, look to yourself as to what
you can do to help yourself and cope with the situation.
You can't be responsible for the actions of other people,
only for your own. And it's not the situation that's
going to do the most harm to you, it's how you deal with it
that counts.

Lexi, "I've found it helpful to keep notes, dates, a record of
incidents, et cetera. It's harder if you confront the
boss with detailed data when being accused of something"

If you are doing that, move jobs. Your are wrong for them or they are wrong for you. It is a mismatch, solve it by taking the initiative.

Individual,
There is no doubt that a proportion of managers are useless. Some are absolute mongrels too. The tone is set from the top. The solution is as I advised to Lexi above.

It is useful to remember who is paying you and that you are there for an economic reason. It is not usual that an employee is sacked for poor performance. But where they are found to be personally unrewarding they are eventually shunted off somehow. Usually when asked, their work group and management agree on the unsatisfactory, anti-social behaviours. No offence, but it is easy to get into a rut. Cynicism, distrust and unhappiness even where understandable, can be very wearing on the work group over time.

-Just speaking as someone who was previously a contractor with one of the big internationals and got to see it from both sides. Mainly private companies but some public sector. Senior managers and employees let it all hang out in front of us and fortunately for all we always maintained their confidences and still do, some years later.

Imagine what you would like to be doing and head for that. Take action. There is no treading the water. Time spent niggling or not doing things 'because of management' is life lost forever.

Dear onthebeach,

Thank You for your advice.
I avoid responding in kind and
I only decided to keep
notes after several incidents had taken place.
It was totally objective, and simply made it difficult
to deny something when detailed data was provided.
BTW: That particular person is
no longer with that organisation.
I continued working for there for
several years after they were made redundant.
After which we travelled overseas and I applied and
got a more challenging position at a prestigious, private
institution of learning in Los Angeles.
It was a job that I absolutely loved.

Well, that's just so typical. I recall some career consultant several years ago visiting us. One of the first questions he asked was "what's the first thing you look when you read a job advert'.
We all just looked at him & remained stumm. "well, how much it pays of course" he said then.
One by one we looked at him then back at each other & gradually one of us said "no, we look at WHERE it is because we want to know if we would want to live there". This consultant was completely lost when he learnt that some people want a place to live in not just to make money. That's the problem we have when people come here just for money. They do not participate in anything unless there's money in it for them. We used to have a great community before idiot Goss destroyed it by removing those who made up the community & replaced them with career bureaucrats who don't give a toss what damage they cause. That's why the notion of "why don't you move" is just as idiotic as the bureaucrats who invade us to our detriment & yes they all have degrees. We want to live here, get it ? Tell those degree holders not to come here if money is their only incentive. We do better without them in every which way. Ask any indigenous what happens when the degree bearing experts come to town & stuff everything up.

Lexi, "That particular person is no longer with that organisation"

Fortunate for all remaining there.

As you realise, my advice is well meant.

The advice of advocates and urgers with an interest or stake in relationship difficulties at work might advise keeping notes and so on. However, where ordinary communication and politeness have not succeeded prior, the odds are firmly against a successful and respectful resolution.

Much better to re-examine our goals and slip out and away. Economic conditions might make that a little slow and difficult, but usually we could do with some honing of skills and presentation anyhow.

individual,

Sorry if I was a bit hard on you in my earlier post.

But....

You say that you "used" to have a great community....which apparently is not such a great experience now.

"...WHERE it is because we want to know if we would want to live there..."

Well it seems that you don't like being "where" you are now because your experience of it seems to irk you very much.

If you don't like the experience of where you are and who you are dealing with, you should strive to change it.

The power is with you.

The aforementioned scenario has a lot more to do with depression in communities than most experts want to accept. Country people live there because they appreciate the life style more than the money. It's the opportunists from urbania who invade & ruin the life style of these communities for nothing more than money. That interference contributes to much of the stress & anxiety of people in the bush because it turns people & families against each other. Greenies & academic experts, supported by incompetent bureaucrats & rip-off contractors, none of them local or with any local interest
I have seen how it affected Cape York, it's not nice at all. Goss started the root & Beatty & Bligh whacked in the final nails in the coffin. If it wasn't for Joh to create DOGIT many locals would be homeless by now.

Belly
Those comments are unnecessary. What posters here have said anything that would warrant the poison comment. We may disagree on things at times and many of us certainly tolerate your negative views on women. I understand your comments, like many others on OLO, may be based on a personal bad experience but it is unfair to categorically denounce women just on that basis. I hope you come to terms with whatever it is that makes you write those things and find some peace bit if I see something that I think is wrong I can't help but call people out on it and would expect the same in return.

individual
It must be difficult in smaller communities to change employers if the current one is unsatisfactory. The benefits of living in a smaller city or town are felt by many who move from the bigger cities, the only downside is the lack of employment opportunities.

My experience in the workforce has been mainly good but I have seen some amazingly bad management practices as well. You have two choices really, fight it and go for broke with a chance that your actions will reap benefits OR look for other work. Only you know what is possible in your current situation

The power is with you.
Poirot,
If you can give me an idea how I could take the nature of Cape York, it's rivers & the Barrier Reef with me then yes I'll move.
Until such time this is possible I'll continue to draw attention the way I have done thus far.
I'll continue to put the environment before the useless bureaucrats.

Dear onthebeach,

I know you mean well and Thank You.
And you've raised some valid points.
For me however, -
at that time I was not in a position to be able to leave
even if I wanted to due to family circumstances
so I coped as best I could. However, things did
improve once the lady was made redundant.
She had her own problems to deal with and I ended up
feeling rather sorry for her. We parted as friends
and even today I still get a card from her at Christmas.

My overseas experience was such a positive one.
I learned so much from it. Today, I'm in another job
that gives me great job satisfaction. I guess things
tend to happen for a reason.

Dear individual,

You've had plenty of advice.
You should think about what's been said - and
you never know how things can pan out if you at least
try a different approach to the one you've been using
to date. As the old adage tells us: You can't keep doing
what you're doing - and expect different results. Try
a different approach. What have you got to lose?
You don't need to move. Just work on yourself so that
you can deal better with what you've got.
Give it a try at least. Being apathetic and blaming others
won't achieve anything. But being a bit more positive
might surprise you (and others). It's up to you as Poirot
stated - the power is you.

Dear Pelly,

Just a bit of light relief to make people smile.
I trust nobody will take offence - I found these
two ditties on the web and as one reader remarked,
"Might as well dream Big!" :

A Woman's Poem:

Before I lay me down to sleep
I pray for a man, who's not a creep
One who's handsome, smart and strong
One who loves to listen long
One who thinks before he speaks
One who'll call, not wait for weeks
I pray he's gainfully employed
One who's not easily annoyed

Oh send me a man who'll make love to my mind
Knows what to answer to, "how big is my behind"
I pray that this man will love me to the end
And always be my very best friend.

A Man's Poem:

I pray for a deaf-mute nymphomaniac
with huge boobs who owns a Bar on
a golf course, and loves to send me
fishing and hunting.
I know that this does not rhyme
but I don't give a shite

cont'd ...

I forgot to explain that these two
ditties were found as a response to
Belly's earlier post...

The women's poem is long on image and short on reality. Reality is show me the money and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. An example being Tiger Woods who has found yet another trophy blonde, but for the former one, Elin, even $100million in the purse is not enough, she is still tugging on the strings. LOL

http://hollywoodlife.com/2013/06/07/elin-nordegren-hates-lindsey-vonn-tiger-woods-relationship/

"There are a number of mechanical devices which increase sexual arousal, particularly in women. Chief among these is the Mercedes-Benz 380SL convertible." P J O'Rourke

"It takes a woman twenty years to make a man of her son, and another woman twenty minutes to make a fool of him." Helen Rowland

onthebeach,
No woman would do that only females are like that.

Clever girl.
Tiger must be romantic, trustworthy, loyal, frank and have a good sense of humour. Hold on, put respect first.

Tiger is feeling no pain, a smile like the chrome grille on a '59 Cadillac.

Dear onthebeach,

Your reality is very different from mine.
I can only speak of my own experience.
I am grateful for the miracle of my
marriage: that we managed to find each
other, that we get to begin our days
together, respect each other, support each other,
and let the other be. To discover the joy
of living with a lover and a friend.
Sometimes coming home at the end of the day,
I worry that as in a dream it will all have
disappeared.
I take nothing for granted.

It takes a long time to become a person. Longer
than they tell you. Longer that I thouhgt. I am
grateful for my past, it has given me the present.
I want to do well by the future.

BTW: The poems were not meant to be taken seriously.

Yes I can see this thread is reverting to type.

Back to the subject matter, I think the consensus is that money might be better spent on looking at the causes. However if only a handful of men respond due to this Ad I guess it is of some worth.

A friend in the health sector says the early breast cancer campaigns did increase the number of women checking for lumps. It worked to create awareness. Same with the prostate cancer awareness campaigns.

The Man Therapy campaign is a little different in that the awareness is there but the goal is to encourage men to seek help. Altogether a more difficult task as far as campaign planning or strategy. I certainly would not know how to tackle it other than just to provide practical information.

Pelican, men and women are being damaged by the cultural and social changes that have occurred because of feminism.

The answer is to get rid of the thing that is causing the damage. It's no use worrying about trying to stop the pain of sunburn while you're standing in the sun.

because of feminism.
Antiseptic,
I have looked at this situation all my time on this godforsaken planet & I'm blaming poofterism rather than feminism. Although the feminists have disrupted normal life to a great extent it is the fags who are the real cause. They have infiltrated all positions of power & now they're all but invincible. In Australia we have had one as the high Court Judge, one as a Premier with another few pretty questionable, we have them in Police, in the armed forces in fact they are everywhere hence things are stuffed everywhere..
Is it any wonder normal people go around the bend & lose all hope. And now the asexuals are on the rise gradually overtaking the religious nuts.

pelican,

You can see "this thread is reverting to type", you say? What, because men are not sucked in and grateful for superfical *bleep*? A site that patronises and spins the unfortunate victim right back to where he started from, only even more disillusioned if that is possible?

You drew a parallel with breast screening. Breast cancer is an excellent example but for a different reason. It is so heavily over-funded by government and by donation that it is an embarrassment. It is so politically correct that batsmen took to wearing the pink logos to spin a more positive image for cricket, especially after allegations of fixed games and betting on matches. Yet so much of it is a feel good war, and that could be seen very easily from the adoration of a 'courageous' over-wealthy, privileged actress who had her boobs done and re-stuffed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/magazine/our-feel-good-war-on-breast-cancer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

As I posted earlier and drew the usual spiteful and misleading comment from one the site's leading man haters, men are not so stupid as to not know when they are hurting and nor are they so insensitive and bovine that they refuse to help themselves. The limiting factor is that many who need professional support cannot access it because of cost.

I can add to that the well proved (peer reviewed research is available and the HIC has heaps of stats) fact that medical professionals including nurses, are far less disposed to ordering medical tests and screening for male patients and to treating their health complaints seriously. In fact males of all ages get only a fraction of the time in consultations that women do and that is not because they are rushing to get out. Obviously it isn't just 'men' who have a 'culture problem'.

to be continued..

..continued,

I also posted peer-reviewed research that questionned the very basis of the catchy titled 'Man Therapy',

<<To begin to understand suicide in men we need to acknowledge the psychobiological and cultural realities and demands on men’s lives, as described by Ashfield (2010).

The practice of blaming men for ‘holding in their emotions’ and ‘not seeking help’, and calls for changes to the traditional male role, sounds plausible but is, at best, lazy and simplistic. It is a view that conveniently avoids dealing with the more complex issues of male suicide, and is one that is ignorant of biology, and offensively dismissive of the lived reality of most men’s lives – what society expects of them, and what they must try to be to meet these expectations.

Let us act on what we know with compassion, respect and hope and continue to build the knowledge base to address the huge gender disparity in suicide.>

from 'Insights into Men's Suicide'
Australian Psychological Society Aug 2012>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5833&page=6

So what about some replies to that? It is not lost on men and the women who care about them that the Gillard government, the experts on the 'misogyny' of a man looking at a watch and how to dole out million of foreign aid to market Julia Gillard abroad, don't give a fig about Australia leading the world in male suicide.

September 2013 will see the electorate put out the rubbish in Canberra and it is not before time. It will be good to put the skids under self-serving The Hon Tanya Plibersek MP, Minister for Health, for a start.

OTB
I was not referring to the comments about Man Therapy, many of which I agree with or have acknowledged I don't know the answer. I was referring to the inevitable nasty comments about women that seem to come out from a few regulars regardless of the subject matter.

I wonder how much study has been done with men and in particular talking to men who have had suicidal thoughts. Or with their families after these tragic events to ascertain some of the issues that create feelings of suicide. One obviously has to distinguish between clinical depression and other types in this discussion.

My own experience with suicide is that the person I knew did not come across as depressed and in fact was almost always jolly. It was very sad and surprising event for all concerned.

We do not need to discuss depression or the causes of suicide. The peer reviewed research is there and the numbers. Nothing new, some good practical work done but always crippled by very limited funding and very obvious indifference, even obstruction, of the Gillard crew, think Tanya Plibersek, Nicola Roxon before her, and others.

The biggest, most practical and enduring contribution anyone can make is to Put the Rubbish Out in Canberra on 14 September 2013.

did not come across as depressed and in fact was almost always jolly
pelican,
these are the actual suicides but what about the thousands who kill themselves gradually with drinking & smoking & those who gradually die earlier than they were programmed to because of authority induced stress ?
If you want to reduce suicide you'll need to reduce greed & egoism in authority. If we had education in Australia it would also help greatly. There are simply too many influences on anyone's life brought on by those around them who then say how sad.

Pelican, lots of work has been done. A common thread is that men see suicide as an active approach to a solution, not a passive copout. They know there's a problem, they try to fix it but they find that it is intractable because of the social pressures on them, so they choose to remove themselves rather than make those around them suffer. By impugning the "courage" of men who don't seek help, the Man Therapy" business has got the wrong end of the stick. What they need to know is that a solution for the problem that they are trying to solve exists. The help that is offered is not a solution, it's a coat of paint over a cracks in the facade.

Women's suicidality is more often a plea for help, which reflects the socio-biological fact that our species has a protective response to women in danger. It can be a passive-aggressive act too "see, you didn't do your job properly".

The help they receive is also not a solution, it's just an anodyne. It satisfies their need for social attention and it gives them pills to make them less acutely feel the pressure that drove them to ask for help, but it doesn't remove those pressures.

We need to stop pretending that we can put square pegs in round holes without damaging something.

talking to men who have had suicidal thoughts.
pelican,
I doubt very much if any man would ever tell you what suicide thoughts they have/had. A few attention seeking whimps probably make a big song & dance of it but I can't see a man disclosing such info.
I believe that there are simply way too many mindless rules & regulations imposed on us every time we take a breath. Real men are demeaned by having to bow to asexuals by Law.
It's the Laws which are ruining our society. We desperately need a review & a referendum.
Only then can people be people again.

The depressed are not likely to seek help. Think about the cruel reality of depression. Maybe see one of the many videos on-line by (say) youths suffering from depression. Other age groups don't make many videos of their pain.

They need caring people to be with them. Just be there for them. Not to jolly them up or attempt to solve their 'problem', that doesn't work. They need professional help, best where the home can be visited.

@ $200 a session, pay up-front and some refundable later, how can many afford it, even if the difficulty of getting the person to the professional is overcome?

One simple way of getting a better bang from the taxpayers' bucks spent on health and welfare would be to treat people as people. It is time that the public realised the expensive stupidity, duplication and waste from splitting health and other services for woman, special groups and so on. That only suits some professionals and bureaucrats who have careers in the victim industry and hanging from the guvvy teat. But otherwise it sets up competition for resources, fights over demarcations and so on.

Depression - or melancholy - has been with us for a long time. I surmise that our present system/culture perhaps disposes us to it.

Here's Robert Burton's contribution to the subject from 1621.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Melancholy

The antidote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izaak_Walton#The_Compleat_Angler

Your frivolous dismissal of depression as something that can be fixed if only the person could get off his behind and do something is precisely the sort of attitude that beyondblue, the Black Dog Institute and others are trying to counteract.

There is a vast difference between grief and feeling a bit down, and depression.

For those who are interested,
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/8E0E3BC67E3962AFCA25712B0080235F/$File/nhpa2.pdf

Onthebeach "I can add to that the well proved (peer reviewed research is available and the HIC has heaps of stats) fact that medical professionals including nurses, are far less disposed to ordering medical tests and screening for male patients and to treating their health complaints seriously."

What rot!
Where's your proof for these allegations?
Men demand to have their complaints taken seriously, just as much as women do.

If some men are reluctant to talk about their mental health problems, it is as much about the fact that other men belittle them as being 'sissies', as for any other reason.

Depressed people can access 6 free counselling sessions with their local psychologist if their GP refers them and fills out all the forms.
There are also local depression and anxiety help groups available in our communities, which are free to join and attend. Many men do avail themselves of these sessions.

So why not do something about it, rather than blaming every single problem in society on feminism and women?
That's just a cop-out, as far as I am concerned...

LOL, medical professional suseonline has spoken.

But wait a bit, that would be a courageous call where the subject presents as suicidal or suffering from possible medium to major depression. Besides, what is suseonline's psychologist to prescribe?

suseonline, you need to bone up on the differences between psychologists (clue, human behaviour, counselling) and psychiatrists (clue, medical training, strong grounding in both biological and psychological frameworks, can prescribe).

ontheeach,

If that was directed at moi, I wasn't meaning to be frivolous about depression. I realise there's a huge difference between feeling down and real chronic depression.

My point in including "The Compleat Angler" was that it's a book, not just about fishing, and cooking, but it's a soothing spiritual guide and represents the opposite of our depression-inducing modern system.

Frankly, it's the model of one's community and the connectedness produced therein that keeps people stable and unlikely to develop serious depression. Reaching a point where we're required to fill out copious forms, front up at a GP, and request "six" visits to a psychologist, should have us examining just how psychologically healthy is our current way of life.

If we fail to address the basis of our discontent in a society where we are materially rich but functionally in danger of developing depression - then we'll find ourselves perpetually, as a society, filling out forms to see a psychologist.

Onthebeach, obviously the GP would have already prescribed medication as necessary if the patient had a major depression.

Anyone who proclaims to know anything about a depressive illness should know that both medication and counselling are needed in most cases.

The psychiatrist may also be needed if the GP feels that more specialised medical treatment is needed.

At least I am offering some practical advice Onthebeach, rather than sneering and making sarcastic remarks.

individual
"doubt very much if any man would ever tell you what suicide thoughts they have/had"

You may be right on a person to person basis. I was thinking more about those men who are already seeking treatment and thus would provide a pool of men who might be willing to discuss their condition with researchers (with their permission). Arrangements could be made via the counsellor. But you are correct in that those men who do not seek help at all fall through the gaps and it is those men that Man Therapy is attempting to reach.

I can't help but come to the conclusion that we as a society are doomed to forever chase our tail on this one - unless we acknowledge that it's our model of living that is not conducive to good mental health.

What other conclusion can we come to?

We now have programs for addressing depression in pre-school children.

We have a program for addressing suicides in high-school students.

We now have a program called "Man Therapy".

Before we know it the whole gamut of the population will have a program in place to deal with the incompatibility of healthy mental outcomes and living a 21st century industrial life where "community" is something confected or delivered via an institution.

individual, Monday, 10 June 2013 2:30:01 PM

Is that satire?

Classic. I had know idea to the levels of your homophobia.

pelican,

' I certainly would not know how to tackle it other than just to provide practical information.'

I don't think you understand the profundity (is that a word) of that statement. Who would think that a section of society that value pragmatism and rationality would respond to a straight forward, non-dressed up, not emotive or manipulative - 'practical information'

Exhibit A from pelican: Common sense.

Certainly beats 'Man Thearpy'; The attempt to stereotype, stigmatize, belittle, and infantalize adult men. Depression is a serious topic, treat it seriously, provide information. Not cliche.

It raises no 'awareness' whatsoever. We need, as a society, to start raising information rather than screaming loudest for attention. The marketeers have infiltrated every minute of our waking lives with cocaine-fueled hubris.

Poirot
"Before we know it the whole gamut of the population will have a program in place to deal with the incompatibility of healthy mental outcomes and living a 21st century industrial life where "community" is something confected or delivered via an institution."

Well put. It is impossible to replace 'community' with a superficial bandaid version run by some government agency.

Dear Pelly,

Here's a link that I've just come across
that may be of interest. It suggests
amongst others - reasons for gender disparity.

http://www.psychology.org.au/inpsych/2012/august/beaton/

Houlley

"cocaine-filled hubris" - the worst kind of hubris. :)

Wise words as usual. People who might need assistance are not interested in window dressing or attempts at manipulation they just want facts.

In my GPs waiting room there are many posters on the wall providing phone numbers or addresses or screening times for various illnesses and conditions. There is even a poster with pictures of different types of skin lesions that might be cancer. There is one with a number to call if you are depressed and there are two posters about checking for breast and prostate cancer.

I can't help but think these simple posters that do not attempt to play 'mind games' are where campaign planners should get their lead.

Here's something Ivan Illich wrote on traditional society.

I'm not suggesting that we should make an informed choice to revisit such a model, although the things we've lost were part and parcel of cooperating within such a model.

Perhaps there's something we can learn from it.

Here's the way he put it:

"...Traditional society was more like a set of concentric circles of meaningful structures, while modern man must learn how to find meaning in many structures to which he is only marginally related. In the village, language and architecture and work and religion and family customs were consistent with one another, mutually explanatory and reinforcing. To grow into one implied a growth into the others..."

Seems our greatest challenge is to find "meaning" in our lives and a sense of ourselves being "needed" in the scheme of things.

Without that.....

Very sad situation. One factor no one wants to talk about is women influence. They have us over a barrel. Men naturally love Mum and are passed onto wife by Mum. We just don't get a say in the process.

' Compounding this is a frequent lack of awareness among men of available support services, or a sense that these services do not adequately cater for their needs and would not help in their situation '

Naturally, it's the supposed lack of awareness that government likes to tackle. It totally discounts that, as in my experience, the fact, not 'sense', that 'these services do not adequately cater for their needs and would not help in their situation'

I love gems like this,

'A suicide attempt is a strong predictor for suicidal behaviour'

No sh1t sherlock.

'Seems our greatest challenge is to find "meaning" in our lives and a sense of ourselves being "needed" in the scheme of things.'

I dunno poirot, what if the meaning of life is really to not need a meaning for your life.

People seem to respond to 'you're worth it', but it's the very people who don't think they are.

I've been trying to think of a more effective campaign than the corny 'all men cant talk about their feelings' bullshite.

I think the essential ingredient is the persuasion to the depressed person that they can get through to the other side, and that their thinking is reinforcing a hopeless outlook. If the desire is to attract males of a mindset that they don't need help, there is all sorts of angles that co-exist with that outlook than promoting the feminist doctrine of the faulty male.

There is ample scope for the psychologists to attempt to break a man down and re-educate his gender perception and indoctrinate him into the feminist ideology once you have him in the room, but in an advertising campaign why mess with gender identity.

Poirot

Finding meaning might be more difficult than perhaps having a purpose or consuming interests. Einstein is purported to have written: 'Only a life lived in the service to others is worth living'

I think there is some merit in that but not at a superficial level. Perhaps Einstein meant it not only in terms of community participation, or contribution (in his case to science) but also as regards interaction or service to family and friends.

The idea of helping others such as in volunteerism. Although in writing I am reminded of my father who has a thing about 'volunteers'. Mostly he doesn't like them, seeing them as more about feeling good about themselves as opposed to an altruistic act of helping. I know what he means but am less judgemental. Even if the act of volunteering itself may be motivated by those selfish 'feel-good' feelings, is this a bad thing. There are are positive spin-off effects to having, for example, people helping out at a soup kitchen or manning a helpline. Are the motivations more important than the outcome?

Again I make a point of distinguishing between clinical depression and other sorts of melancholy/depression that might be short-term.

Lexi
Thanks for the link.

The article Lexi referenced is interesting in what it acknowledges and what it appears to ignore. They have a number of points there that could tend to support my views on the role the family law and child support systems play in the rates of male suicide. The question appears to be be ignored though. Are the authors unware of widespread male dissatisfation with the family law system?

- The age brackets where the incidence of suicide is highest appears to have a substantial correlation with the ages where children are likely to be in the mix.
- The link to relationship breakdown is acknowledged but no apparent questioning of the role of different outcomes for men in that process.
- The role of financial factors is mentioned but again no questioning of the factors that might lead to a financial crisis.

I think that the family law system is part of the mix, not the whole story but I am very bothered by how consistently its ignored by thoe seemigly seeking answers to issues where its role should be seriously considered.

R0bert

Thanks Houellie and Pelly,

By "meaning" - I'm not trying to plumb sophisticated depths.

I'm referring to the sense of being wherein one finds his or her life experience to be part of a continuum - as Illich wrote, where meanings are consistent, mutually explanatory and reinforcing.

I have no idea why we think we can fracture our societies and calve them up into neat little departments and then wonder why people are being diagnosed with "clinical" depression left, right and centre.

Most people are too tightly lashed to the system to even consider stepping back, dumping the load and opting to simplify their lives. They're carried along by a strong current - and because everyone else is sailing along with them, they don't think it's an option to pull into the riverbank and watch the world glide past.

its critical to get a depressed person out and about .. when they will be inclined to want to stay home alone ..

try a Men's Shed .. there's over 800 across Australia .. and, contrary to what some might think, they are full of normal blokes being blokes ... making stuff, repairing things, doing stuff together ..

or a Community Garden .. good open air gentle exercise ... with the bonus of good healthy food to eat later

or a Community Club ... or University of the 3rd Age ...

it really does not matter ... the key is that the 'depressed' person is socialising .. with others .. not alone at home

Hey traveloz,

What if the guy really isn't into DIY, or cars, and already feels ostracized and has gender identity issues. He's not likely to respond to such a celebration of traditional masculinity.

One would think that the in the closet, the inadequate, the feminine, the nerd, the goth misfit, would be a significant subsection of the depressed, given they don't fit the mould of what society expects of men.

That's a further weakness of the Man Therapy campaign. It's taken as read and reinforced that blokey blokes are the only blokes who wouldn't ask for help. Those aspiring to be blokey blokes and who have taken on the same messages about masculinity are still unreachable with this campaign, just with one extra kick in the guts for good measure.

<Causes

Most likely, depression is caused by a combination of genetic, biological, environmental, and psychological factors.

Depressive illnesses are disorders of the brain. Brain-imaging technologies, such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), have shown that the brains of people who have depression look different than those of people without depression. The parts of the brain involved in mood, thinking, sleep, appetite, and behavior appear different. But these images do not reveal why the depression has occurred. They also cannot be used to diagnose depression.

Some types of depression tend to run in families. However, depression can occur in people without family histories of depression too. Scientists are studying certain genes that may make some people more prone to depression. Some genetics research indicates that risk for depression results from the influence of several genes acting together with environmental or other factors. In addition, trauma, loss of a loved one, a difficult relationship, or any stressful situation may trigger a depressive episode. Other depressive episodes may occur with or without an obvious trigger.>

National Institute of Mental Health
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/depression/index.shtml

There is no way a major depressive illness is going to be 'cured' by some hopeful telling the patient to buck-up, get a grip of himself or go fishing.

Suicide is not just about feeling sad.

no program, however well conceived, can ever encompass the wonderful array of humanity ...

some like football ... some prefer chess or bridge ...
some prefer computers .. some like reading
others would prefer a walk or a bicycle ride ...

I was primarily saying that its important to get out and about .. not remain isolated .. whatever one's preferences .. sexual or otherwise

'I'm not trying to plumb sophisticated depths'

Oh never fear about sophisticated depths when I'm around. Sophistry on the other hand...

Poirot
Your observation "that most people are too tightly lashed to the system to even consider stepping back, dumping the load and opting to simplify their lives. They're carried along by a strong current - and because everyone else is sailing along with them, they don't think it's an option to pull into the riverbank and watch the world glide past."

That is a salient point in this discussion. Fear is a big factor in the 'going with the current' analogy. Fear of failure and fear of having to re-enter the system should things fall flat, and maybe not being able.

There are small ways of going against the current if the current is unsatisfactory. Much is also a state of mind.

Houellie,

"....Sophistry on the other hand...."

Your point being....?

pelican, "That is a salient point in this discussion. Fear is a big factor in the 'going with the current' analogy. Fear of failure and fear of having to re-enter the system should things fall flat, and maybe not being able"

That is a slanted world view that is talking. A jaundiced opinion that is dismissive (why?) of the actual nature, causes and severity of depression. Maybe if you consider that women can also suffer from depression. That might cause you to go a little deeper than the superfical and convenient view that blames the victims for their 'choices'. That it is simply a state of mind that the sufferer can easily change. His fault. He just needs to be told or informed by a brochure.(sic)

onthebeach,

One would have to grant that you're a master at "attempting" to skew people's comments into themes which you can attack...it's a pity you're not better at it, because it's so obvious.

Poirot,

You persist in your inane, prejuduced view that depression is the fault of the patient and can be corrected by going fishing. Mental health specialists disagree with you, saying that people with your view actually deter sufferers from seeking care.

There is no way a major depressive illness is going to be 'cured' by some hopeful telling the patient to buck-up, get a grip of himself or go fishing.

Suicide is not just about feeling sad.

I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and say that major depressive episodes (not illnesses) are nearly always reactive in some way, especially for mature men and women and that it's the cognitive feedback they give to that reaction that determines whether it's a major problem or a mere bit of misery.

Teaching people ways of dealing with their validly-derived emotions that are not going to reinforce negative, depressive patterns, but instead damp them, or medicating them to reduce the severity of the depressive effects is fair enough, but it's not solving the problem.

How to make men feel they are needed is the problem.

I hope that the incoming government does something for men that isn't just a vehicle for someone to make money by doing an insultingly puerile set of advertisements.

The first task for mental health professionals appears to be reiterating that clinical depression is an illness, a medical condition.

onthebeach

Your comment indicates you seem determined to see the worst in people, especially women for some unfathomable reason. I made the caveat very clear that my earlier comments did not relate to clinical depression as opposed to short term experiences of melancholy or event based depression. I clearly distinguished between the two.

Indeed, my discussion with Poirot had headed away from the original topic to a more broader one relating to human behaviours in the context of that earlier caveat.

Please do not accuse me of blaming sufferers of depression for their state. This is not at all what I wrote and unlike you I don't see women and men as different in terms of worth, respect or regard. Please do not judge others worldviews using your own resentful attitudes towards women as a benchmark.

If you do find my comments not to your liking or you take pleasure in wilfully misinterpreting to satisfy your own self-fulfilling prophecy about women, please feel free to ignore and not respond. Life is too short for this sort of ill-will I am certainly too old to bother with this sort of trolling.

onthebeach,

Please produce the post where I stated that depression could be cured by going fishing?

Of course, I shouldn't have expected you to get my point. I shouldn't have expected you to fathom the fact that a book ostensibly about "fishing" isn't only about "fishing" at all, but something much deeper and more valuable - and that our harried modern life of excess is the chief cause of depression.

That a book like The Compleat Angler points in the direction of an opposite paradigm - something more conducive to our humanity.

That you should take a simplistic swipe because you're incapable of anything but a shallow interpretation is certainly more of a problem for you than it is for me.

My response to onthebeach sounded more hot headed than intended.

Poirot
I experienced a bout of depression after a series of personal experiences. Your comments resonate well and should not be diminished in the context of our discussion.

One of the major aspects that helped was accepting what you cannot change and to even forgive those who were responsible (well in truth I am not quite there yet). It was also about looking outside the system as you put it and making choices about when to participate within it and when not - taking charge so to speak.

I must add the caveat that this was not clinical depression and I chose not to take medication

Pelican,

Thanks for that - as you know, the older I've become, the more I've tended to try and cruise in this life, step outside the square, so to speak and move at my own pace. Not always achievable, but I try.

onthebeach seems to have a morbid dislike for women, and will choose any opportunity to twist a post's meaning to suit his agenda.

When he stops doing that, he'll receive a tad more respect from moi.

: )

The OP proposed a site for men. It is appropriate to reflect on research that appears to question the Man Therapy approach. I did quote some of that research earlier. As far as I can see from the responses here, there is no advice superior to that research recommendation (quoted) and it questions the thinking behind Man Therapy.

'I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and say that major depressive episodes (not illnesses) are nearly always reactive in some way'

I can agree I think. As a teen it was fed to me and I swallowed it (literally in pill form) that I just had a 'chemical imbalance', but older and wiser there really were some f$cked up family dynamics. I'm sure most families are the same, which is why I think Poirot's external societal factors are over-sold. Kids think their families are normal, and they get a lot of their ingrained beliefs from them much more than from society.

'I hope that the incoming government does something for men that isn't just a vehicle for someone to make money by doing an insultingly puerile set of advertisements.'

Well there's funding actual services, and making sure those services are effective, and there's 'raising awareness'. Which is easier? Which is more visible?

There is a disconnect anti, but the break in the chain could well be you and I disconnected from mainstream society, not the government and advertisers. Trying to appeal to a fringe group by use of mainstream memes is doomed to failure I suppose.

I think it's inevitable that in a society and biology where we have a deeply ingrained idea that men are expendable, more men will suicide.

Yeah, Houellie,

But I think reactive depression can be cause by societal pressures.

Give you an example - you say you were encouraged to take pills to address an imbalance.

It's a similar thing I've found with other parents whose high-fuctioning autistic or Aspergers kids attend school. These kids in reality are really just a bit quirky and pretty close to "normal" (that's why it's so difficult for them). I know quite a few of these families online and in my community. Invariably, these children are on Ritilin or similar, and also on anxiety medication to try and make them into round pegs.In fact, I don't know of a family in our position (except my own) who hasn't taken the docs advice and put their child on something.

And still, these children struggle. It's non-stop the stories where parents are beefing about their kid and the school or waiting in trepidation all day in case the phone rings from school. Some of them brag that they only dose up the child during school term and take them off it during the holidays - seeing as it usually takes six weeks for the body to adjust one way or another...well you see what I'm getting at.

Societal pressure and all that - individual quirks and institutionalised education aren't compatible....but that's the way we do it and medication, apparently, is the answer.

Medication did help my
father-in-law's mood swings. However,
it was a combination of anti-depression medication and
psychotherapy that did the most good.

Pop was very reluctant
to seek help. Doctors tended to focus mainly on
Pop's physical symptoms rather then on his
emotions. It took a long time to understand the
symptoms and their consequences and learn how we
could help Pop to cope.

I can understand why men commit suicide. This
reluctance to admit or seek help for depression
means that if it goes untreated - this could be
responsible for the suicide of many men, especially
older men.

Many men and older men in particular tend to hide
or deny their depression. This could be due to
cultural ideas about manhood, suggesting that men should
keep their feelings to themselves. That mental health
problems are a sign of personal weakness. Men who hold
strongly to these traditional ideas are reluctant to seek help
or even admit that they have a problem. The mistake society
makes is by treating only the physical symptoms rather
than including emotions into the mix as well.
We have to recognise the fact that this is an illness
and treat all the causes.

Houlley
It would be sad if men really do think that society views them as expendable?

The consensus from the comments here is that Man Therapy while good intentioned misses the mark for many men.

Thanks all.

Pelican, is pretty much a given for a lot of men that society sees us as expendable.

As an example look the utter lack of interest in a widespread cause of significant emotional trauma for men that I've high lighted yet again on this thread. Some sympathy for experiences that Anti and I have had but an apparent unwillingness by most to pay any more attention to the issue the issue than that.

Have a think about how often its highlighted how much worse some attrocity is because the victim is a woman or child (admittedly all to often the perpetrator is male). There are all sorts of ways the message is reinforced over and over again that its "women and children first".

R0bert

RObert
The 'woman and children first' was also fostered by men as it was seen as part of that historical protective role. Men have had a bad deal in many ways including not least being enlisted as fodder in wars with little thought to their care after these events. Many Vietnam vets still experience feelings of being left behind.

Your experience and that of Antiseptic's highlights some flaws in the CSA and family law area. But there are also stories from women who battle on their own after their men have left them and who do not provide any financial support or whose ex-husbands are violent but nobody believes them. Men can have similar problems with false claims of violence - difficult to determine as an outsider in the judiciary on just whom is telling the truth.

Violence is a problem for men and women in society. Also, sexual violence against women is not treated as seriously as it should IMO.

Frankly it shouldn't be a 'them vs us' discussion but a 'what is right' discussion.

Maybe if society approached these issues from a mostly a non-gender perspective all people would be better served. The exception being of course issues that might be considered uniquely a male or female experience. And I guess there is room for debate on what those might be.

Also we tend to form our views of what society 'thinks' based on media and government information. Personally I don't take too much stock on that alone as it does not necessarily reflect what people think in the real world. Most woman don't see men as expendable just as most men don't see women as only sexual objects. One has to be careful not to assume things about what society thinks. If we did, we would all buy the PM's message about men in blue ties and silly menus concocted by the LNP.

I have some faith left in what ordinary people assume about men and women and it is mostly positive. Take heart in that.

Pelican I think I've been pretty consistant over a long time in my view that for the most part we are all in it together when it comes to shaping society. I get frustrated with feminists when they try and portray our cultures history as male oppression of women or blame men for the shape of society as though women were not part of that.

By the same token I think much of the disaster that is the family law system is a combined effort by men with traditional views of the family and the girls club tying to help other women.

My long term girlfriend is in the boat of not receiving child support for a variety of reasons. I've raised suggestions previously that I think would reduce some of inequities of the system for parents of both genders wanting to do the right thing.

Generally threads in that vein seem to be ignored.

R0bert

@ Lexi, Thursday, 13 June 2013 11:51:28 AM

Lexi,

That must have been hard to write, triggering the sad memories. You are right though.

The culture of the medical system reflects society. No surprise in that, but what it means for men is that traditions once set are pervasive and very hard to recognise let alone break. Medical practitioners unconciously treat men as society has come to regard them. HIC numbers for instance show much lower numbers of screening tests ordered by both male and female doctors for men than for women. Women doctors order a slightly higher number of screening tests for men than male doctors do.

To be blunt, when a male, particularly an older male is in hospital, be aware that a relative or friend should be looking to ensure he is getting the treatment he needs. Everyone is busy and while being missed once may not be a problem, a few misses on change of shifts can be. That applies with bells for discharge planning and procurement of needed services after discharge.

Mental health is part of the overall system and has the same traditions.

'But I think reactive depression can be cause by societal pressures.'
Societal pressures may cause depression but they may just be exposing a lack of resilience, esteem, or some kind of emotional weakness or dysfunctional identity formed during formative years.

'individual quirks and institutionalised education aren't compatible'

I think its the only way it can ever be Poirot. The only people who are allowed to really have a great degree of individual quirks are the rich and the supremely talented. The rest have to make a living in some sort of company, where conformity, taught at school, is a necessity for survival. Well, depending on the safety net.

'medication, apparently, is the answer'

Drugs you mean. It's AN answer, one I have used myself, though I have on occasion engaged in quite unconventional 'medication' regimes. Our society has some strange contradictions when it comes to drugs. Who is to say whether after trying a hand full of different therapists the next one would have had half a clue. Who is to say they wouldn't have given me similar drugs to those that I ended up buying illegally.

Religion
Shopping
Drugs
Fitness
Food
Therapy
Tribalism
Sport
Violence

People have always had an outlet.

Maybe if they stopped toning down the violence in sport, and the risk in almost anything, men would fare better.

You blame doctors, but I think you also discount the guilt-factor for parents. What parent wouldn't jump at the chance for an alibi when things go pear shaped with their kids, and have a convenient scapegoat of the mysterious chemical imbalance.

It's also not unheard of for super-moms to get their kids diagnosed but then take the Ritilin themselves to keep up the facade.

R0bert,

I have heard news reports, even quite recently about natural disasters, you know - not like war that is the fault of all men via their gender, and they still report specifically how many women and children were killed. Just like they always find an Aussie with a bruised leg in any overseas natural disaster where thousands were killed.

' there are also stories from women who battle on their own after their men have left them and who do not provide any financial support or whose ex-husbands are violent but nobody believes them.'

I think those situations are given much more credence in our society and in the legal protections, hard fought for by feminists, and good on them for that. The trouble is, those very same feminists are protecting their ground even when the side-effect of believing the default position of male oppressor female victim leaves some men marginalized.

Like you say I really think for true equality, we really need gender-neutrality in law and in social initiatives, and I really don't think there are any real cases where men and women are not humans. Ordinary people in extraordinary situations, with strengths and weaknesses and yes, gender, but that is secondary, to their simple human needs and entitlement to be treated as a person not a stereotype.

The trouble is you wont fix things purely by law, the problem involves the execution of the law by bureaucrats in an industry with it's own culture as far as I can see.

Just as there are culture wars with left vs right, there are culture wars in the area of family war. Sorry Law.

That's why you get domestic violence defined as men hitting women exclusively; The powers that be believe even the smallest concession of even 10% depictions of women hitting men would somehow weaken their Australia Says No message. They worm their way around it by saying they're just addressing a uniquely female experience of violence. It's bullsh1t. Violence is violence. Or not these days as the threat of violence and even metaphorical violence is also included too.

Well, Houellie, I was being sarcastic when I said medication is the answer.

Medication is an answer if it's desired that the child sit down and shut up when it's required. And you can't run a school by allowing kids (especially boys) to run around and let of a bit of steam when needed.

The thing I notice that my (unmedicated) son likes to do is slip outside maybe eight times a day (if we have a day entirely at home) and he runs and jumps, hits a ball, you name it, he gets physical and then he comes back in twenty minutes later ready to tackle something else. On the whole he gets to go out when he feels like moving about a bit - works for him (and I realise he's lucky that way)

Houellie, I don't necessarily blame doctors - they're only doing the parents bidding, who are only trying to acquiesce to societal mores.. the pressure often comes from teachers who will keep on harping at a parent until they go to GP to get a referral to paediatrician who is the first port of call.

Dear onthebeach,

Thank you for your kind words and
for your understandig.
The medication did help his mood swings.
The psychotheraphy he totally rejected.
He simply would not talk about his feelings
neither with us nor anyone else, try as we
might. All we could do is let him know we
loved him unconditionally, and spend as much
time with him as we could. I did manage to
get him to begin writing the reminiscences
of his youth (we bought him a computer which he loved)
he wrote quite a bit which I'm
now saving for his grandchildren.

RObert
No argument from me, we are certainly all in it together. That is what makes the recent media obsessions with Gillard's blue ties and menugate all the more regressive to that end. Lots of trite and not much substance. The continual displaying of the gender card in this context ends up being the boy who called wolf (or should that be girl) and diminishes misogyny to an almost meaningless state.

Houlley
'The trouble is you wont fix things purely by law, the problem involves the execution of the law by bureaucrats in an industry with
it's own culture as far as I can see.'

Yes it does have it's own culture. It is not as black and white though and I would not generalise from one agency to another. Once laws are enacted it is really out of the hand of bureaucrats and the judiciary takes over.

After the laws, what is left for the bureaucracy is the sort of stuff we have discussed on this thread about programs and attempts to manipulate (or 'shape') certain behaviours.

It is not all bad news though as there is a slow change coming within the bureaucracy even it does seem more obsessed with primarily womens' issues. Australians have experienced better policies and laws around child custody and family relationships centres centred on mediation first to obviate the need for a court case. This was one of Howard's good policies. Well a good start anyway and recognised the importance and influence of both parents in the raising of children.

Pelican I got told a number of times by CSA staff that things are not as bad as they were before Howards reforms. A scary thought.

The relevance for this thread is that what I faced and what others face for much longer periods is a very real practical problem brought on by far more powerful external forces and seemingly with no checks and balances. I had a very real practical problem brought about by the government and with traps at every turn to ensure I could not change the situation. Working longer hours (which I had to) gave me a little extra money but also increased both my tax bill and CSA payments and potentially increased the latter long term regardless of the availability of that extra work depending on the judgement of CSA.

In regard to the point about men being disposable I just noticed a post by ö sung wu which is a good example of the sort of message that is pretty common http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5852#164522
"Those category of offences would include, but not limited to, violence against the mentally disabled, women, children, the elder, and all emergency workers, who are pursuing their duties ?"

Not picking on o sung wu with that BTW, I think he is a decent guy but the post made the point well. That sort of message is repeated in one way or another over and over again in our society.

A lot of men feel that society regards them as disposable, many accept that they are.

R0bert

RObert
I am not dismissing your views and agree with much of what you write. However in trying to understand this phenomenon, I wonder if the 'women and children first' attitude comes from the idea that men were considered in charge and with power comes a greater responsibility to others. Now that society has changed to share that power perhaps it will take a while for some of those other cultural norms to adapt and catch up.

Men are certainly not disposable, a society needs men and women together united against greater tyrannies (if I can put it like that without sounding extreme).

As far as parole goes, it makes sense to judge these matters by the severity of the crime and the risk of re-offending while awaiting trial.

You've got it completely backwards, Pelican. A society has always been defined around its women. Any man can father children by many women and men have no further direct role in the reproductive process once conception has occurred, but they do have a large role in protecting all women and children. A a result, men have arranged society to best suit their protective role, including the hierarchical structures around political power, which exclude the vast majority of men and place them in the role of "cannon fodder", which they willingly fulfil.

The most powerful man will still defer to women in matters that are not directly his responsibility and will cite women and children as his most important responsibility.

The feminist movement has often tried to paint those motivations as somehow tainted, which says a lot that's uncomplimentary about such feminists and has lead to the situation that men are presently facing, where they have essentially no role other then the ones that women don;t want for themselves, while they are not able to compete on equal footing with those women because of their own drive to protect and defend.

It's pernicious and it's dishonest and it's unfair, just as a woman hitting or goading a man is unfair when she knows he is unable to do anything to retaliate, because of either his own biological drives or the law that takes those drives out of the hands of the individual and makes arbitrary rules to enforce them. There is no more any credit given to men who behave as "good" men and don't hit women, because the assumption is that they would if the law didn't exist, which is demonstrably a slander.

R0bert, good post. As I have said previously, the role of men in reproduction does not justify the number of males who are born, unless that reproductive role extends in the form of eusocial roles.I believe that part of a man's eusociality incorporates the notion of his individual expendability and the nobility of doing so to protect the centre where women and children are safe and well-fed.

The present socio-political model takes that masculine sense of having an obligation to the greater good of society for granted. It is based on an expectation that men will willingly sacrifice their own needs so that women and children will not miss out on every possible opportunity and it's not far off the mark in expecting that.

I reckon the CSA disappeared into the DHS because there are increasing numbers of female payers, as women move into senior professional roles and men are less likely to be employed than any time since the 30s. I give the child support scheme as it is no more than 2 terms of government before the senior female public servants and lawyers put pressure on to abolish or significantly change it.

Anti
Your summaries make sense but don't forget women's experience of violence as well. Acknowledging some women experience violence is not an indictment about the nature of men and I certainly agree that violence towards men from women is not acknowledged in the same way and is under-reported.

I understand your basic argument and it certainly bodes to the confusion many men now have about their roles in society. This is an important aspect particularly for older men. It would be interesting to get young men to comment and see if their experiences and expectations are different. I only have minimal contact with young men but I sense there is still some mixed messages and confusions.

Antiseptic, driving home today I heard the radio add for the Man Therapy site again and it occurred to me that you and I are not their target demographic. I think that we both spend a fair bit of time thinking about what we think and trying to understand our own emotions, thoughts, drives etc. The adds are build on stereotypes of men who don't do that.

I can't say that I know any men well who I think would actually fit the demographic but that could be a lot to do with my interests and age. For me the stereotypes used in the adds leave me with the impression that if thats how they see men they are unlikely to be able to offer me anything in a crisis.

Not sure if I commented earlier in the thread, I had a look at the website. A lot of Americanism's in the material I saw, some reasonable suggestions but overall it left me with a sense of gloss rather than a determined effort to understand and connect with Australian men.

Feeling like I'm being very negative about what could be a genuine attemp to reach out to help, maybe those behind it do know what they are doing but its not the impression I get.

R0bert

R0bert, I've worked with blue collar men or been one myself for most of my adult life. That ad would not appeal to any of them. Such men are always on the lookout for a p!sstake from some pointy headed nitwit and they do not take kindly to being accused of lacking courage.

I'm sure you're right about their intended market, because that's the demographic which has suffered most from the structural changes in the economy as the femiconsumerist model was pushed, but the aim is way off.

In my view it's a simple waste of money.

Pelican, you're quite right, but the role of women as agents is deliberately ignored by researchers and policy-makers, while at the same time we're being told that the same people who can't be responsible for their own behaviour are the best people to be at the top of our social structures, while the ones who are always responsible for their own behaviour are fit only for low-skilled work.

There's a huge cognitive dissonance at the heart of the feminist argument, which is bad for everyone.