Recent events like the Murder in London, and maybe todays assault in Paris ask this question.
What can be done to stop it?
Are our laws and values, belief in freedom of speech, and with in the law to protest working against us?
My fear is on line hate pages may sooner rather than later bring this horror here.
I am aware youth,as has always been the way, thinks far differently than it may in the middle age of life, and this makes some people act in ways they might not later agree with.
Is freedom of speech worth letting preachers of hate, any hate, do as they wish.

Belly, as awful as the murder in London was, there has been some equally awful murders committed that weren't racially motivated, or considered terrorist crimes.
Murder is murder, and all should be considered on a case by case basis against violent people.

Freedom of speech should remain a necessary freedom here, however I do agree that it should have its limits.
If a public speech incites violence amongst its listeners, then both the speech giver and the violent offenders should pay for their crimes... for whatever reasons they give.

I am not sure a Murder committed as an act of terrorism is not terrorism.
We should not bog down in Racism, remember one of the killers was a Christian Convert.
So what do we do about the people he found, or who found him, and made him become a killer.
Are his, and those involved in his turning rights, to see more deaths, maybe here.
I can quote even myself, in defending free speech.
We can find greatness in that defense in our history.
But will that freedom remain unchanged forever?
Is early self defense action, [stopping talking about committing murder]worth thought.
We very well will see near race based thoughts here but is it race?
Would we be as fearful about some if they shared our faith.
I think we must first second and third look at the things made Public after Boston, and London, already, maybe Paris next.
Looking back, not forward, the first two events seem to have given warnings that a closer look, maybe take the free speech away, could have stopped the events.
What rights did we protect for the now dead?

This is the full text of the Woolwich assailant's speech:

"The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers, and this British soldier is one, is a eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Sharia in Muslim lands. Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? Rather you lot are extreme. You are the ones. When you drop a bomb, do you think it hits one person or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family. This is the reality. By Allah, if I saw your mother today with a buggy I would help her up the stairs. This is my nature. But we are forced by the Qur’an in Sura at-Tawba [Chapter 9 of the Qur'an], through many, many ayah [verses] throughout the Qur’an that [say] we must fight them as they fight us, a eye for a eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments. They don’t care about you. Do you think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think the politicians are going to die? No it’s going to be the average guy, like you, and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so we ca.., so you can all live in peace. Leave our lands and you will live in peace. That’s all I have to say. Allah’s peace and blessings be upon Muhammad.”

Yes indeed Jay, a truly strange rant.
That sort of thinking and actions only goes to reinforce my position that religion and imagined 'gods' are at the route of all evil in our society.
We could certainly do without them.

The guy who got killed was a British soldier who had fought in Afghanistan.

Had he killed people there?

Obviously the foreign forces have killed loads of people there; even their own propaganda admits it. That was his job; what makes you think he didn't do it?

What I don't like is the slavish idolising of these people as "serving their country" when they go there and kill people; but when people who identify with the victims of this aggression kill back, all of a sudden it's "terrorism".

Let's get one thing straight. These people volunteer to join in an aggressive invasion and occupation of a country that has not attacked and has not offered to attack Australia. They are not serving the country. They are serving the State.

Jardine, Suse,
The attacker was rational, his speech makes sense, it's up to the viewer to decide whether they agree with him or not.
I'm a Nationalist, I want Muslims to live peacefully in their own societies and I want us to live in ours, so I agree with Jardine, joining the military or a Jiahdi group for that matter is as always a bad choice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjT6B6IFUU8

I need to be told why this is considered a terrorist act.

It was not against civilians which the London bus bombings were, it was not even against a military target where civilians were inadvertently harmed. This was directed at a serving member of the military without 'collateral damage'.

To condemn the act, as I most certainly do, one must also be capable of condemning in the same manner the drones strikes that claim the lives of enemy while they sleep with their families, or visit a funeral, or a school. Time and time again certain posters here have shown themselves incapable of doing so. It is up to them to make their case.

You are right csteele, I didn't see this as a 'terrorist act' either.
I saw it for what it was.
A heinous murder.
It wasn't even a military clash either, given that neither the perpetrators nor the victim were engaged in activities of war at the time.

Why is it that it is only when Muslims kill anyone else lately, that it is called a terrorist act?

Jay states that "...I want Muslims to live peacefully in their own societies and I want us to live in ours..."
Who is 'us' Jay?

Jardine K. Jardine Quote "They are not serving the country. They are serving the State." I believe you are wrong they are serving the almighty DOLLAR or big business, oil interests etc.

What happened was wrong but don't forget the video of the American gunship killing innocent people released by wiki leaks, $10 says they were never prosecuted.

One persons freedom fighter is another persons terrorist.

csteele "I need to be told why this is considered a terrorist act."

Because the killers made their *political* motivations clear, demanding passersby film them to make an impact on the wider community.
It wasn't a thrill killing or crime of passion.

This was not a combat situation. They couldn't even know the man was a soldier.
He wasn't in uniform. He was just wearing a charity top that any member of the public can buy.

If they want to fight the soldiers, do a David Hicks and go join the other side.

Should we really keep calm and carry on, as the authorities suggest?
This is no "isolated incident", just the latest in a long list of atrocities.

I need to be told why this isn't considered a racially motivated crime.
Would they have attacked a Black man in the same top?

Are our laws and values, belief in freedom of speech, and with in the law to protest working against us?
Belly,
You've got a hole in one there. A most definite YES ! In fact we are our own worst enemies by mollycoddling our enemies and, yes that includes ourselves.
I have never nor will I ever subscribe to academic law & policy making. We now cop the result of academia's influence over the past 5 decades & it's no good. Shame that too many are simply too stupid to see it.

While this link is quite angry, and thinks much as I and most western world folk do, it highlights too those we protect in the name of free speech.
Csteele, sorry I disagree, with
almost every thought, in any thread.
And that may be my fault, I can NEVER clear my mind of the words in defense of our own home grown, and in one case Convert, who in my view carried out things beyond defense, including lie about police brutality and the thuggish clowns who stood out side the court.
Terrorism? what then is the murder of a soldier in the name of a God,

Room exists, surely, to ask why are thugs and fools , not true followers of this religion being bought to it.
And why do we let them shelter under the umbrella of free speech in their ranting hatred of the very system they wish to destroy.
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/twisting-islam-to-justify-cruelty-20130526-2n535.html

I must again practice what I preach.
That is stop reacting to one post and skipping the rest.
Only to come back and read the lot.
It makes mine, and any post, disjointed to not know the thoughts of every one.
JOM in a long thread some named you as a member of an extremist group, as is your right.
Others may have come to join you here, but I have great trouble in being what I hope is the new me.
I have pledged to try once more, to be more civil.
But do you truly think holding the view,
it is my view you and Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?
Everyday in our country some one is murdered, not in them name of a God that never existed,some times only in anger, but are all killed by lessor people.
I feel a great faith in our youth, including many from this community, Muslim, but fear the PC/dreamed up reasons folk try to transfer the blame to the victim.

First it is not racist, it is religious and political.
Islam is a religious/political movement quite similar to Nazism.
It has a policy of eliminating the Jews and supports slavery and all
moslem states have refused to sign up to the UN Human Rights agreement.
They have instead have made an agreement amongst themselves that sets
in place Theocracy.

Islam has a declared objective to impose Islamic control over all the world.
The Fourth Reich?

Islam, by its own definition is incompatible with democracy.
You have been warned.

Some very interesting posts here. A couple are predictable.
Bazz said; "Islam is a religious/political movement quite similar to Nazism." Like the spread of Nazism, the west gives the extremest fertile ground to plant their message of hate and find converts. Wherever there are extremes, the extremest will proliferate.
J of M said; "I want Muslims to live peacefully in their own societies and I want us to live in ours." Unfortunately according, to the US who in god they trust, somewhat similar to the belief of their enemies, US strategic, economic and political interest will not allow that.
It is a fact that The Taliban, Arabs, Muslims, turban wearing people, anyone who's not "us", are intent on monopolising our oil reserves and exploiting our western resources, at the absolute best possible term for themselves. Whilst on the other hand "we" are quite happy for the Arabs and etc's to do as they please with their oil and resources. As far as "we" are concerned they can keep their crap in the ground, if they so desire. "We" are forced to spend billions on militarism just to protect ourselves from those who would take the little "we" have. LOL.

We in the Western world believe in freedom of speech and the free practise of religion. However in radical Islam is the belief that the practise of Islam means isolation from the infidel and it justifies killing him in the name of Allah. Islam cannot coexist in a democratic society, because the practice of his religion offends Western values and laws. It is terrorism to innocent civillians, and the man was dressed in civillian clothes and off duty at the time. He was an army musician not involved infantry.

Dear Belly,

What a dreadful state of affairs.
Questions need to be asked as to why a young man, born
in London of a Christian family after converting to
Islam, and according to his family and friends - a
young man who was gentle, softly spoken, studious,
suddenly decides to bludgeon a young army musician to death
with a machete in a London street.

Obviously something influenced that action.

As far as I can tell from the news reports it would appear
that the young man came under the influence of a "radical"
preacher.

Authorities apparently were keeping an eye on this and
other young men. Apparently authorities did not find them to be
a serious threat. It would appear that the authorities
had made a serious mistake.

People who enjoy the rights of free speech have a duty to
respect other people's rights. A person's freedom of speech
is limited by the rights of others . All societies, including
democratic ones, put various limitations on way people may
say. They prohibit certain types of speech that they believe
might harm the government or the people. Libel, slander,
hate and violence - are all prohibited.

After an incident such as this, authorities need to pay closer
attention to "radical" preachers and their influences. These
preachers need to take responsibility for their actions
by inciting this kind of hatred and should be held accountable.

It is time that action was taken - and that this is not swept
under the rug - simply as a "terrorist" act. Somebody influenced
this young man to take this action. And that somebody needs to
be brought to account.

Lexi said;
People who enjoy the rights of free speech have a duty to
respect other people's rights.

That is fine Lexi, but it has to be reciprocal as I am sure you will agree.
Islam does not believe that kafirs have the same rights as moslems.
That is the crux of the matter.

The issue as I see it is not just free speech as the man had his say. No one would deny him that right. The issue is one of murder of a person unknown to him for a religious reason. This is terrorism! If the army drummer was in the field of conflict then his death would be the result of war and the murderer would also be in the line of fire of the military.

Josephus,

Here's a recent one which got next to no press - for whatever reason.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police

To paraphrase a portion of your post - The issue is one of murder of a person unknown to him or "whatever" (racial?) reason.

Humans are sometimes murderous bastards......

Dear Bazz,

That was precisely the point that was being made.
So glad that you understood it. ;-)

Dear Belly,

Please never feel the need to apologise to me for disagreeing with almost everything I post. It is actually a source of pride for me so I should in fact be thanking you.

Dear Shockadelic,

You wrote that you considered this a terrorist act;

“Because the killers made their *political* motivations clear, demanding passersby film them to make an impact on the wider community.”

So when the American government releases their 'War Porn' showing drone missiles destroying houses and vehicles why can we consider their actions as terrorism?

You added;

“This was not a combat situation.”

Neither are the vast majority of the drone strikes in Afghanistan.

And;

“If they want to fight the soldiers, do a David Hicks and go join the other side.”

Yet the drone pilots sit in air-conditioned comfort in the US.

Now if you wanted to run the line that the perpetrators in London were traitors, which no one seems to have taken up, then that is a separate discussion, but to call what they did terrorism means the label must justly include drone strikes.

Here is a piece from the Guardian;

“The ongoing US drone attacks unquestionably have the effect, and one could reasonably argue the intent, of terrorizing the local populations so that they cease harboring or supporting those the west deems to be enemies. The brutal sanctions regime imposed by the west on Iraq and Iran, which kills large numbers of people, clearly has the intent of terrorizing the population into changing its governments' policies and even the government itself. How can one create a definition of "terrorism" that includes Wednesday's London attack on this British soldier without including many acts of violence undertaken by the US, the UK and its allies and partners? Can that be done?”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback

Dear Bazz,

I re-read my pevious comment to you and thought
that I'd better clarify what I meant by my earlier
post.

I stated that people who enjoy the rights of free
speech have a duty to respect other peopl's rights.
A person's freedom of speech is limited by the rights of
others.

I did not single out any particular group. This applies
to us all. We all have to be responsible not to incite
hatred or violence, and so on.

As for what Islam is or isn't I can't really comment.
I do not know enough about the religion to be able to do so.
I do know that Muslims in this country make up over a
hundred different linguistic and cultural groups and can't
all be classified together. Therefore making assumptions
about what they practice/or don't - would not be correct
and certainly tarring them all with the brush of
fundamentalism is not right either.

Lexi you first post made its point to me instantly, and is one I support whole heartedly.

Csteele I share your feelings of pride, in the fact we never agree.
It in my view is a truth-ism, the very left will board any cause to gain its scrabbled eggs view an airing.
Also the the new left of center that MUST emerge post Labors defeat, needs a path more actually support and want, that path should distance, every time, centrist left from all extremes.
No answers yet, have we noticed?
Are some here saying the victims, are deserving of their Murder.
And that the Murder is justified because of their country,s actions?
Including the support for Libya?
A thought unanswered in my thread stands lonely and ignored.
Is our defense of free speech worth while if it shelters the radical preachers of hate?
I feel on solid ground and unchallenged in saying if we spoke of these folklike they do of us.
In the lands they or their forefathers came from , we would die or be imprisoned for it.
What Price freedom of speech then, if its one sided?

Belly - You never cease to amaze me, Quote
"Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?"

Can you please explain what part of my post infers what you allege it to infer?

I see the Islamic apologist out again. Unbelievable I suppose if they face up to the evil of Islam then they also have to admit the corruption of human nature including themselves. Maybe the murderer simply did what the prophet writes in the book for them to do to infidels. It would take a little swallowing of pride for those that have supported such a treachorous immigration policy. The secularist hated Christianity so much that now they are reaping what they have sown. and to think the warmist religion has the arrogrance to use the word denial. So obvious but people choose to be so blind. More intent to demonise messengers like Wilders than face simple truth. Future generations will curse the 'denialist' and it won't be those denying gw.

How long will it take for western nations to wake up?

Islam is committed to world domination and goes about that in a violent way.

In the last week there have bee 52 attacks, resulting in 311 deaths and 893 critically injured.

In the last month there have been 202 attacks,resulting in 957 deaths and 2403 critically injured. This occured in 25 countries.

Since 9/11 there have beed 20946 terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. Deaths too numberous to count.

It is well beyond time we in Aus did something about it. The figures alone show it is far more than 'just a few'.

What we can do is stop further immigration of those that do not and apparently cannot integrate into our society. Muslims fall into that catorgory, as they have shown by there actions both here and in other countries. They are a violent religous/political organization that seek to impose terror on those people they call infidels. When there are no infidels to blow up they resort to killing other muslims of differing sect, as seen in Iraq and recently in Lebanon.

We can well do without importing more.

Dear runner,

I don't know of any one who's apologising for Islam
on this discussion.

Most intelligent people won't comment on a
religion they know little or nothing about.
Are you so well informed
about Islam as to be able to comment on it in great depth?
Most of us aren't. There are fundamentalists in any religion.
Look at the extremists in the US - and what they preach and do.

And, as we know - there are preachers who can and do influence
people to commit certain abhorrent acts. This heinous act was
influenced by someone outside this man's Christian family.
That's the person the authorities needs to be looking at.
Who knows how many others he's influenced.

Belly a difficult question you pose. How do we stop terrorism? I don't think the world will ever see the end of terrorism whether by governments motivated by powerful interest groups, dictators or political or religious zealots.

The real problem is not really religion or politics, those factors certainly contribute but more as fodder to fuel the fire. The real problem is one of inequity and injustice - real or perceived.

The best efforts to thwart terrorism is not more authoritarian or interventionist foreign policy but a desire to address global economic imbalances. Educating women and men in the developing world and ensuring their rich resources are used to assist development and foster wellbeing in those communities. Rather than just line the pockets of foreign owned corporate body with little thought to the interests of local communities or the impact they leave behind on environments and food production.

All the national security efforts governments throw at the problem are just bandaid effects, and war and terrorism bring in lots of money for many big corporations. This is one aspect only - the US in particular has a huge military industrial complex which resists any form of cuts to defence spending.

I am certainly not arguing that wars or strife in every part of the world is some great conspiracy but the bottom line is what we know about Iraq after the fact - the reasons for war and the loss of many lives - was based on a manipulated fraud. There is no doubt about it. This is the reverse of anti-terrorism or national security policy no matter the spin put about by trained PR advisors.

It is a war, a war that was declared many many years ago.
There have been many invasions of many countries.
One way or another there has been retaliation by mainly western countries.
These retaliations get stigmatised as attacks on Arab countries, when
they are the result of previous Islamic invasions or attacks eg 9/11.

We often see the reincarnation of PM Chamberlain making excuses because
the Islamists are still fighting the crusades.
There is no way around it and negotiation is pointless because
Mohammad himself said to agree to any treaty, just to get a temporary
advantage. Bad faith is permissible when dealing with Infidels.

The jews have had enough, isn't it about time we said enough is enough !

Lexi
'
'Most intelligent people won't comment on a
religion they know little or nothing about. '

Most intelligent people don't need to go to far to see that wherever Islam finds a base through immigration their is violence. We even have around 20 Islamic terrorist in our prisons.

There are fundamentalist in many religions but you do yourself a disservice comparing those who believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus (fundamentals of Scripture) in contrast to terrorist who follow the footsteps of their warlord. The left has been dishonestly using the word fundamentalist for decades trying confuse the naive.

Simply look at the life of Jesus and then look at the life of Mohammed. Most Muslims who are decent people want to move away from Islamic countries to the West. You don't need to be to clever to work out why.

Dear runner,

Here is some of your Christianity in action.

“A widely circulated video shows Orthodox protesters accompanied by priests assaulting the minibus, breaking windows with rocks and fists and trying to drag the terrified activists out as the van slowly made its way through the crowd.

The confrontation took place on International Day Against Homophobia (IDAHO), when Kharchilava and her fellow activists were headed toward a small rally in the center of the Georgian capital. They were representing the Women’s Initiatives Supporting Group (WISG), an NGO that promotes gender education.

Tens of thousands of anti-gay protesters organized by priests thwarted the demonstration by breaking through police lines and chasing the activists.”
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/130523/georgia-tbilisi-orthodox-church-gay-rights

Here is that video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4lMuAhORU&feature=player_embedded

This is what you would have for us.

To paraphrase your good self; Most 'homosexuals' who are decent people want to move away from Islamic countries to the West. You don't need to be to clever to work out why.

Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are tarred with the same brush, we need to be vigilant about letting their poison spread through our societies.

Lexi, that's just it.

Why do people like yourself refuse to educate yourself on Islam, and obstinately remain ignorant?

It is a very dark cultish culture. More ideology than religion. Infidel is very meaningful to them. You should start reading up on the life of Mohammed for a start.

ALL religions should be treated the same. When you come down to it they ALL practice exclusion, control, hatred and bigotry.

That anyone can live in this world with all our knowledge and still believe in some magical superfriend in the sky just boggles the mind.

Until humanity is cured of the sickness of religion we are doomed to a world of conflict and ignorance.

@Lexi
"There are fundamentalists in any religion."

Yeah and runner is one of them.

'Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are tarred with the same brush, we need to be vigilant about letting their poison spread through our societies. '

and yet the secularist murder more babies in wombs than all religions put together.

Runner, we have all already had your thoughts on abortion rammed down our throats, in threads about anything but abortion, many times before.
It's becoming really boring.

Shall we now discuss the long history of terrorism in the Christian country of Ireland, since you seem determined to take the religious stance on the subject?

csteele, whether or not drone strikes are "terrorism" doesn't change the definition of the Woolwich murder.
The killers themselves defined it as a political act. There intention to impact on the general population ("we want to start a war in London tonight" "Remove your governments... So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back").

To truly terrorise a population, people must identify with the victim.
That's why they chose a White man, since most of the British population is White.
That also makes it "racially motivated", as well as "terrorist", but I bet they don't get charged with the former offence.

"Home grown"?
Unfortunately, no. Britain is not and cannot be their true home.
They know it and their alienation would come out sooner or later in one form or another.

They just happened to discover Islam, and that become the excuse, the justification for acting out their preexisting hostility.
You can censor the hate preachers all you like, but you'll never eradicate the eternal awareness of not belonging.

Runner may not be aware of it.
But his every post highlights and proves some followers of any God, are subject to not following that Got but make new tracks of their own.
Philip s,you too bring out that thought in me, about you.
How do we stop it, stop some one who truly,and honestly believes that God, the only God, theirs, says they are better than all other humans.
Not a hard one leave it to you.
Again can we support hate, any hate, from any group, in the name of freedom of speech.
In a time to come, maybe after true upheaval in the west, it will be the Muslim Community that has to bring an end to terrorism.
And I think it will.
Many splits see Muslim killing Muslim, based on differencing views of their God.
Time will bring another split based on the wish to live in peace.
Before that takes place, it may be decades, we here in our country are almost assured we too will suffer, just take the time to find and read the hate pages.
Stunning that we let our freedoms, one we would not be grantedin the place they came from, be used against us.

To the Religious, Roger Dean pleaded guilty in the NSW Supreme Court yesterday to the murders of 11 elderly residents who died as a result of the fires he lit at their nursing home on November 18, 2011.

Dean was arrested and charged on the day of the fire, Dean Told police,

"IT WAS SATAN TELLING ME TO DO IT".

As Dean stood up in court and softly said "guilty" to the 11 counts of murder, his victims' families wept and one woman left court sobbing loudly.

Is Dean some crazed Islamic fundamentalist. No! he is a home grown Christian. At the same time as Dean was pleading guilty to mass murder in the name of Christianity in NSW another home grown Christian fanatic Archy Pell was busy before the Victorian Parliamentary Inquiry into child abuse, Pell wasn't giving a rats about victims, rather he seen fit to protect "terrorists" cronies within the church. I call them terrorists as they sure did terrorise children with their pedophile acts.
Pell was told that "Hell awaits him" after he finished four hours of evidence, sound good, Pell, Dean and Satan can BBQ together some day. Victims of the Catholic Church sobbed loudly outside the inquiry.

Paul1405,
Satan means an opponent of right behaviour, Dean would hardly be Christian if he was acting under the authority of one who opposed right behaviour. Similarly with the London murders acting under the authority of some hateful immam of Islam. Dean was acting under his own decision and was responsible for his dispicable behaviour. Certainly not a Christian act. Christian means one in whom the character of Christ is expressed - no where do we find such evil acts in the life of Christ.

Paul

'"IT WAS SATAN TELLING ME TO DO IT". '

sounds very viable to me. Just like satan tells Islamist to murder the infidel or the secularist to murder the unborn.

I am sure you along with every other fallen creature has had evil thoughts before. What you do with them however will determine the outcome. Please don't go into denial.

Dear Constance,

What do you know about the specifics and theology of
any religion? Do you know
enough to be able to make intelligent comments on
any given one? If you do then you're a rarity.

The point that I was making was that
so many people are not well-informed about Islam
specifically, and religion generally, and they are often
influenced by what's newsworthy, by stereotypes and
caricatures. By images of extremism. Islam covers many
different linguistic and cultural groups. They are not
all the same. And what we see on the news is what's
newsworthy.

It seems that there is an awful lot of ignorance and people
in general don't have a clue as to how things work.
They are judging the actions of a few on an entire
diverse group of people. They are not all the same.
The same as Christians are not all the same, and so on.

It's interesting also as was pointed out on "Q and A,"
last night, - that a couple of weeks
prior to this horrible killing of the
young army musician in London, an elderly Muslim man was
knifed to death - and there was no fuss made about that
and no media beat-up followed that incident.

"Media Watch," last night also questioned - why the killers
of the young army musician in London were given the air-time
to get their message out by being shown on television ranting
and raving and why an entire speech was published in the
newspapers. Surely that's playing right into their hands. This
should have been avoided at all costs.

I still feel strongly that radical preachers who influence
young men to commit acts of violence should be held to account
for their actions. No matter what religion they are.

'Runner may not be aware of it.
But his every post highlights and proves some followers of any God, are subject to not following that Got but make new tracks of their own. '

the judgement you show on many issues gives me more confidence as to my discernment. your rusted on alliegences seems to lead to many illogical outcomes.

Dear runner,

Just a reminder:

If you judge people,
you have no time to love them.

Try actually practicing what Christ teaches.

Lexi

'If you judge people,
you have no time to love them. '

I take it you have just failed to take on board your preaching.

Belly - Like usual you fail to answer questions instead you come out with snide childish comments, here it is again for you.

Quote "Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?"

Can you please explain what part of my post infers what you allege it to infer?

Dear runner,

I am simply reminding you of the teachings
that you profess to believe in.
You have to back your words with actions,
otherwise they're meaningless.

Lexi - I still feel strongly that radical preachers who influence
young men to commit acts of violence should be held to account for their actions. No matter what religion they are.

Whilst the most immediately obvious culprits are certifiable lunatics like that imam from Lakemba, who signed whatever permit allowed the clown to come here ?? Surely that dimwit deserves prosecution. Taking a broader approach, our self-professed 'honorable' elected officials not only put Australians at risk of repercussion from followers of the prophet, but they also compel our military to commit murder for the glorification of yankee imperialism. To my mind that makes the red-headed witch & the RAbbott every bit as culpable as the most extreme imam. Note particularly that defence isn't relevant, neither the iraquis nor the afghams constituted any risk whatever to this country, our military was only sent there because of a desire by the bloodsucking parasites in Canberra to appease big brother. Unfortunately by doing so we have made this country a target for islamic extremism. Personally I have no time at all for religious fanatics of whatever colour (religion and christianity being completely different entities) but can we really blame the prophet followers for getting aggro when we stuck our beak into things that don't concern us in islamic countries ?? Those clowns have always been a brotherhood madder than the proverbial cut snake ever since Abraham turfed 'wild man' Ishmael out into the desert and they got steadily crazier since then. Picking fights with them without a VERY good reason isn't exactly the smartest move.

Paul do you not see?
Are you prepared to re read your post? then take in to account that grub/nurse in pleading guilty said he did it to cover up the theft of less than $100 in drugs.
Do you think like that? or are you mearly saying things bound to offend most.
Csteele folks I BEG! you to read every comment made by this bloke, I now understand he is male.
Build more drones use more drones, if they kill the enemy, an enemy we see more than one here defend!
Who bomb markets and kill Children Muslim children, an enemy that has history of strapping bombs on the feeble minded promising them eternal life and sending them out to kill and to die.
Know your enemy!
Be concerned that so very many even here are makeing that dead young soldier the guilty one!

Belly - Quote "do you not see" Funny you should say that, because you fail to see my questions here again. If you would not make stupid comments or statements you would not get questions that you FAIL to be able to or want to answer. Here it is again.

Quote "Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?"

Can you please explain what part of my post infers what you allege it to infer?

Now you could just apologize and admit you misread what I wrote, see how easy that would be.

Dear Belly,

Philip S has quite reasonably asked you to explain your comments about him.

How about doing just that.

Lexi, "Media Watch, last night also questioned - why the killers of the young army musician in London were given the air-time to get their message out by being shown on television ranting and raving and why an entire speech was published in the newspapers. Surely that's playing right into their hands. This should have been avoided at all costs"

I agree, but not without pointing out the obvious, the media including the publicly funded national broadcaster sensationalise firearm and bomb multiples murders, searching the world news for such incidents, sensationalising every grotty detail and encouraging copy-cats. The media even screens video made by the offenders.

What political correctness caused Media Watch to respond as it has on the recent UK incident when it has never before thought to criticise far more detailled and obviously dangerous media sensationalism in relation to firearm multiple homicides?

Reporting should be responsible and informative, but so often it is a grotesque sideshow that can easily cause more harm.

Apart from that, but more of the same, I also deplore the voyerism of revealing photos of victims dead or in distress. Blood sells an audience, apparently. Maybe some need that for adrenaline in their sorry lives.

At least programs like Media Watch,
do try to give some of us food for thought.

Pictures presented to us in the media
are based on what's newsworthy. This
makes it difficult for many to see the
bigger picture.

Although some may have difficulty in doing
this anyway due to their small screen. (joke).

Cheers.

Philip S let us end this bickering.
You ordered me away from one of your threads.
Nothing has changed, you have every right to your comments, in this or any thread.
I have the right to ignore you, it is a survival mechanism!
Keeps me from bailing out,as many truly good posters have.
My views about you, and my claim remain my solid opinion.
I saw the arrest of a man and his appearance in court yesterday, for an act of terrorism.
How close did he come, do others come?
Are his right to post hate full things and threats on hate pages worth our protection?

csteele please add your self to my list.
Lexi onthebeach.
Am I going back on my path about free speech?
Not in my view.
Media if we bind it, but not the murderers rights,is legless.
Not showing us that horrible act, is censorship while we do not do that to the hate pages why not let us see what confronts us.
Or are we afraid to know how confronting these murderers are?
I truly fear a media that is not telling the truth, not one showing it.

Lexi,

But how do you know no-one knows anything when you yourself have admitted not knowing anything about Islam. Your cultural relative thought just doesn't do it. What are we without judgement or critical thought?

Close-mindedness makes neo-liberals nearly impervious to any information that might undermine their beliefs.

At least I have bothered to try and learn including a formal course on Islam and it not's pretty, plus I have some pertinent personal experiences. I'm not going to spoon feed you as you wouldn't listen anyway.

Constance - Close-mindedness makes neo-liberals nearly impervious to any information that might undermine their beliefs.

Exceptionally well stated :) You are of course 100% correct, its **NOT** pretty, unfortunately the do-gooder fraternity chooses not to acknowledge even the blindingly obvious when it comes to their sacred cows.

Belly - Quote "You ordered me away from one of your threads" Please provide a link to this alleged incident.

AGAIN you fail to back up your scurrilous comment, here it is again.

"Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?"

Can you please explain what part of my post infers what you allege it to infer?

"...neo-liberals" eh?

I'm pretty sure one couldn't categorize Lexi as a proponent of Neo-liberalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

But as for them being imperious to any information that might undermine their beliefs - you might be onto something there......

Acts of terrorism have one thing in common, religion.

I say, ban the Muslim religion from our shores and you will go a long way towards shoring up our security against terrorism.

I say this because the leaders of that faith can't control their radical followers, so what hope do we have.

I don't consider this as racist, because after all, this is Australia, a peace loving nation, and we should keep it that way.

There are many cultures that share our country without inflicting pain, hate and unrest, all of which I welcome with open arms.

Oooops...that should have been "impervious".

Freudian Slip, methinks : )

Interesting enough the likes of Lexi who claim to know nothing about Islam won't listen to the many that have left the 'faith ' and exposed it for what it is. The 'apostates ' years of learning from the Koran and living in Islamic nations is over ridden by blind ignorance. In Australia the Victorian femanizis tried to have two of them locked up for exposing the truth.

Dear Constance,

I won't Thank You for your personal attacks
and assumptions that you've made about me.
I think they say more about you then they do
about me.

And I certainly do not expect you to "spoon-feed"
me on any issue. I don't know what makes you think
that you're qualified to do that. I'm not aware of
any qualifications that you may have in the field
of any religious theology - particularly that of
Islam's. Making sweeping statements concerning any
religious group - does not allow for individual
differences and it certainly should not be based on
what is newsworthy and distorted.

As for my knowledge of Islam - I have read quite a bit
on the topic but I still do not consider myself as any
sort of expert. Certainly not to put every Muslim in the
same category as some are doing in this discussion.

As for my listening to you or any other poster. I believe
that we all should be heard. After all this is an opinion
forum. However, I tend to be influenced by well-reasoned,
logical arguments, that put their cases forward on a
mature, intelligent level, rather than an emotional one.

I tend to not pay much attention to illogical or abusive
posters. After a while, I simply scroll past their names
and don't bother reading them.

Cheers.

Much is wrong with our country and its politics.
And Philip s much evidence exists of me confronting the likes of your self.

Let me be brutally frank, *based only on your post history* I have no liking or respect for you.
In previous combative confrontations, with another, I stoked the fire by replying.
I do not intend to do that with you, I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite.
I note we are back on track, in the usual fashion , anti Muslim/Muslim migration,is rampart, I am in favor of no more Muslim migration, to the whole western world.
My views are not shared by all.
I hope, it is noted this thread questions the freedom of speech, offered to all, not however to us, in the country,s the extremists came from.
Is freedom of speech, so obviously one way freedom, content to be the sponsor of such hate?
I strange as some will find it, think folk from within this belief are the best long term hope in putting an end to this endless hate.

Belly - Quote "I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite."

So please explain how making this statement then asking for a reply Quote ""Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?"

My reply was Quote "Can you please explain what part of my post infers what you allege it to infer?"

You have failed 4 times to answer the question YOU initiated the attack on me but fail to say which part was incorrect on my part.

FROM another thread by someone else your first comment was Quote "It is my view this and your other effort are not worth the effort.
But do show an ability to write Children's fiction."
Please explain what part of that is for "for intellectual stimulation" it sounds more like "the very opposite."

There are a lot more examples on here.
Next time before you comment please read these words of yours first Quote "I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite."

I am still waiting on my answer as to what I wrote that inferred "the man deserved to be murdered"

Belly

You'd surely admit that islamics haven't exactly gone out of their way to endear themselves to Australians. Apart from that Keysar Trad who at least makes the odd halfway sensible noise, we've seen a succession of utterly moronic imams crapping on about uncovered meat & the like, we've seen the rise of islamic motorbike clubs, we've seen riots between shias, sunnis & wahabbis, we've seen various militant islamics crapping on about all manner of terrorist activities. Do we EVER hear the imams condemning their own people ?? Of course not, after all they believe they are the chosen race and as such they have every right to exterminate infidels. Violence has been instilled into these f..wits for thousands of years so its not something that can be undone in a few years. 99% of the clowns don't even know whats in their holy book. I've only read it a few times in a comparative religion course but I still have a better idea what it says than most prophet followers. I've had numerous contacts where I had to tell imams what the $%(*#&% thing says. For example, there isn't so much as a peep about exterminating infidels or about getting 5 / 7 / 17 / 75 whatever virgins. Just for a laugh, try bailing up an imam and asking what happens to the 'used' virgins .... the eyes pop out of their stupid skulls !! There isn't as much as one word about burkhas or hijabs or whatever ridiculous crap they inflict on their women. I suggest that before you start standing up to support these people, you do a bit of homework and find out what they are REALLY on about ... the result WILL shock you !!

Dear Prax.,

You want shocking?
Re-reading some of your own posts would
be a good place to start.

Prax, sorry but yes Lexi has a point.
Now may I?
Seems it is you who needs to do a little research.
Seem my views are not hidden, from 2005 I have skated on thin ice in the eyes of the PC brigade.
See my post history.
I am trying, in this thread at least, while refusing to back away from my, well be honest! anti Muslim views, look at another issue.
Having told you a truth I MUST say you hit hard and appear not the truly think about your words.
Anti Muslim? why?
Have you ever noted the *we agree, and are not like that mob*
And have you noted even the truly humble call for understanding come with *BUT*?
PHILIP S RE READ YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS THREAD even you should see the birth of my view.
And please!ignore me as I wish to you.
I again,rather than just drop words of hate want to know, truly, are we wise, [come somebody take the challenge] wise to let freedom of speech protect stark raving looneys such as the murderers of that drummer?

All nit-picking trivia aside, the most shocking feature about islamic invasion of Australia is the all too real risk they could control the country in less than twenty years. Consider their birthrate compared with that of the present population and tell me I'm wrong. Unlike previous waves of immigrants, this mob can't / won't integrate, consequently we are breeding an extremely dangerous enemy within our very society. Ample proof of the danger can be found in present day UK, US & Europe. Meanwhile the Australian sheeple slumber on in blissful ignorance, apart of course from the odd (presumably) well meaning but totally deluded do-gooder who occasionally opens one eye to bleat about human rights or somesuch twaddle. Do you really think jihadists give a rats about the human rights of the infidels they slaughter ?? Is this state of affairs purely accidental or is someone / something pulling strings ??

Poirot,

Yeh all these neos are becoming quite confusing. I'll correct myself there. It seems the so called "liberals" or "progressives" (oxymoron) we have today (like yourself and Lexi) are moreso neo-Marxists - I think that would be more apt. Liberal ain't what it use to be. Look up "Souh Park Conservative" - that's the closest where I would align myself.

Praxidice,
Look up Bellys history. He has not been reticent in advocating a halt to Muslim immigration and he sees the 'illegals' as con artists that are taking advantage of our generosity.

These are a couple of issues that he and I agree on.

Banjo

While Belly has indeed made the odd squeak against islamics, his allegiance with the ALP tells another story. Is it possible to accord someone credibility who says one thing but whose associations are in stark conflict ??

Constance,

Ah....South Park Conservative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park_Conservatives

So by your own admission, we could classify you as an enthusiastic adherent to to all things Fox News, could we?

Makes sense...perhaps with a tinge of Glenn Beck and the Tea Party.

Of course, your reference to neo-liberals being closed-minded and impervious to any information that might undermine their beliefs was always ironic.....because your own rhetoric is slathered in neo-lib logic.

(Since you've decided that it's a great idea to categorise posters:)

Praxicide,
Members of a political party can have differing views on issues. It is just when the parliamentry party comes to a decission, the parliamentry members are expected to abide by that decission.

Individual party members often do have differing views.

Belly is quite entitled to his individual views.

Like me, I am not a member of the Libs but am critical of some of their policies. At this stage I chose not to speak of those issues because I think it more important that we get rid of the current incompedents. The reality is that if we get rid of the current mob, it will be the Libs that take over. I expect them to do a far better job on the financial side and stop the boats.

Dear Constance,

Me a "neo-Marxist?"
Really? What do you mean by that,
exactly?

And -

Why do you say that?

You don't know me at all.

Why not argue at an intelligent level,
instead of an emotional one?

I don't grade one life over another, and I believe
it's a dangerous and ugly business deciding to assign
different values to each.

It would be great however if we could have thoughtful,
and intelligent responses instead of seeing our
discussions through a fixed ideological viewfinder.

Ah well.

a funny utube with a degree of truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=wq_lhlIn1e0

Hey Poirot,

Can someone still be classed as a neo-Marxist
if they drive a ferrari? ;-)

Banjo - I am not a member of the Libs but am critical of some of their policies. At this stage I chose not to speak of those issues because I think it more important that we get rid of the current incompedents. The reality is that if we get rid of the current mob, it will be the Libs that take over. I expect them to do a far better job on the financial side and stop the boats.

You have every right to your views however I believe that being an a member or supporter of an organization whose direction is fundamentally flawed is to all intents and purposes the same as encouraging the flawed policy. Unfortunately the prevailing school of thought, at least with major parties, is to compel representatives to toe the party line. I choose to take a different tack by not supporting any entity which disallows conscience voting on each and every issue. Certainly we need to get rid of the ALP dumbclucks, but are the LNP equivalents really any better, recent experience in Queensland indicates not. Can the RAbbott stop the boats using fundamentally broken logic, obviously time will tell but is there any reason to have confidence in his hairbrained schemes ?? If the example of wanting to chuck billions at the moribund motor industry is any example, there is more reason to doubt his reasoning than to have confidence in it.

Prax,
I feel sorry for you as you have a dilemma.

Ok so your primary vote goes to Palmers candidate, now where does your preferences go? You reckon Labor are hopeless and have no faith in the Libs so what do you do? If you dont fill in every square your vote will be invalid and your support for Palmer will be negated. Do you toss a coin?

I too have had that dilemma, but this time I will be putting the Libs next because I trust they will be an improvement and I have history on my side. The Libs did stop the boats before and when they left office previously they left $20 billion in the bank. Labor are going out with a $300 billion debt and thousands of illegals coming in.

One does not have to be too bright to figure out our best bet.

Belly - Quote "PHILIP S RE READ YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS THREAD even you should see the birth of my view." AGAIN you fail to answer the question, YOU made the statement I again ask you to point out which part infers what you say it infers?

Quote "And please!ignore me as I wish to you." If that is the case why do you keep coming in with childish sarcastic remarks?

Remember your words "I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite." You still fail to be doing what you say you are here to do.

Banjo

I don't doubt your assertion that the LNP mob are better money managers than the utterly inept ALP (it wouldn't be difficult would it ??), but that despicably evil business of the RAbbott & One Nation put the party in my bad books. As far back as I can recall, I've filled in every single number on ballot papers, mainly because its a matter of who I want LEAST. Easiest way to achieve that is to start with the highest number and work backwards. Exactly what candidates will get the best numbers will depend on how preferences are distributed however I'll be aiming to land RAbbott & Co with the minimum possible. Obviously its too early to know exactly how the rats & mice will stack up but ideally I'd like Palmer first, then a bunch of also-rans which could include DLP / KAP / CDP / etc, main criteria being the minimum possible leakage to the major parties and minimal number of failed lawyers (too much experience in doubletalk to be trustworthy) / failed priests (theological conflict)

Prax are you still at school?
I need make no effort to insult you.
Your posts do it better than I ever could.
Banjo and I, while separate in politics are from the same mold, middle Australia.
As for your crippling assertion My pro ALP? I AM A MEMBER
And my party,s harshest critic.
Do you want to brand *EVERY NON LIBERAL*
I fail to hide my concern, while the upper page here brings true thoughtful posters, an influx of those who seem unable to truly hold considered views has its hands around our throat.
No balanced understanding poster, not one, would brand me other than anti Muslim, and totally against the current state of the ALP, and the mindless and gutless acts of those supporting Dillard.
Do me a last favor, lets not talk, it hurts haveing to turn my brain off to get to your level.
Australian imprisoned in Saudi Arabia, for terrorism.
Before the gulable left uses him to not talk about the real issue, I will highlight he could claim insanity.
Committing such an act in the birth place of current Muslim radicalism!

Belly

On reading the latest post from Philip S, its clear that I'm not the only one who often has trouble comprehending what you are on about. Is the Australian dialect of english not your normal language ?? For what its worth, I have a number of close friends from what, for want of a better description, I'll label 'funny' countries, consequently I've had to unravel a number of 'weird' (to native speakers of Australian english) grammatical constructs. That said, your sentence construction is totally unlike anything I've ever encountered (most mediterranean & latin languages, some germanic, the odd bit of slavic, stuff-all asian). Personally I'd prefer you to post stuff in your native language and let me use Babelfish or whatever to translate, mind you others mileage might vary

praxidice,

Belly was late learning to read - and has mostly educated himself in that regard.

He and I don't always agree, but I take my hat off to him for being up front about that, and not letting his struggle with it deter him from posting here.

Poirot

Thanks for the heads up, that explains the issue

"Paul do you not see?
Are you prepared to re read your post? then take in to account that grub/nurse in pleading guilty said he did it to cover up the theft of less than $100 in drugs.
Do you think like that? or are you mearly saying things bound to offend most."
Belly I'm staying with my post. Roger Dean is a Christian religious nutter. I quote him again; "It was like Satan saying to me that it's the right thing to do. That's why I have been bringing the Bible to work and reading it." Religion lead him to steal drugs, having severe nightmares Dean tried to end his life. Another Dean quote; "I've been turning to the church...you won't believe it , but it was like, Satan saying it was the right thing to do."
To what degree was Dean influenced by Christianity to commit these heinous crimes? I'm sure the answer would be interesting.

Prax,
Maybe you should give the matter a bit more thought.

The odds are that one of the majors is going to end up with your vote, so why not preference one of them after your primary. That way you ensure that the party you hate the most does not get your vote.

Are you to leave your vote up to another candidate to pass it to the major of his choice.?

Far safer to put the major you prefer second.

I certainly have my misgivings about both major parties, but we simply cannot go on like we have in the past 6 years. You wont find me praising the Libs but I will be seriously critisising the current labor government. I see it as imperitive that they be kicked out. My misgivings of the Libs go on the back burner for now.

Banjo

It is as you say a dilemma, nevertheless I'm EXTREMELY reluctant to let the despicable bottom-feeding grub have a win. He should rightfully have been drowned at birth. I see he's in deep poo again over that electoral funding con, with a bit of luck karma and / or the Bloke upstairs has decided its time to take an interest. Is it too much to hope for that a coalition of Palmers mob and the rats & mice parties will get sufficient votes to form a government ?? Clearly distribution of preferences will tell an interesting story, and until more information is available in respect of that, its impossible to decide the optimal course of action.

Thanks Poirot.
But while you speak the truth, what is both Prax and Philips excuse?
Prax I approach my 68th year.
Started full time work at age 13 and began my education then.
I picked up little at school, and as eldest of 16 kids, 8 of whom grew up alive,it was my task to help feed them, work.
As strange as I find it, my wages kept a sister in school,she did brilliantly! then wed without working.
Maybe my way is shared by thousands,country poor, working, saw the eldest work early, I have no regrets, but no idea of form or composition of letters.
Other than this.
I judge by content,understanding, and value in my mind.
And try to learn some thing every day.
You mate get 25 out of 100 in those category, not under any circumstances willing to other than hold my ground, you can do better, hopefully.
A truth, one I too can not avoid, wish I could, the future will not bring a Muslim free Australia.
But after much pain, even deaths, they, or us, will understand this is not a Muslim country, and without a war, never will be.
The PC thought that it must be us who change will die, in time hardened by the continued PC lie that in some way we westerners bought murder down on us in our streets.
Be aware truth will out Muslims need to change not us,in our country.

Belly

I think it more likely that a humungous financial crash will occur before islamics breed to the point where they take control because their numbers overpower us, nevertheless their birth-rate compared with ours is nothing short of frightening. Caucasians may well have been good breeders back in your day and mine, but all the statistics I've seen recently suggest we are going backward. I don't have a problem with that because the world is already hopelessly over-populated,but surely the fact of a hostile invader with totally incompatible lifestyle & birth-rate many times our own has to ring alarm bells ??

Belly - Here you go again you just can't help opening your mouth and putting your foot in it with sarcastic childish remarks.
Quote "But while you speak the truth, what is both Prax and Philips excuse?"

Previous Quotes " I stoked the fire by replying. I do not intend to do that with you" - Looks like you can't remember what you wrote on page 11

Quote "I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite."
Do you really believe that or are you in denial?

Quote "Philip S let us end this bickering." From page 10 maybe advanced senility is to blame for forgetting you wrote it.

Quote "I have the right to ignore you, it is a survival mechanism!" We will put this one down to old age from page 10

Here is another question you failed to answer "Belly - Quote "You ordered me away from one of your threads" Please provide a link to this alleged incident."

You have failed another question to you 6 times where YOU initiated an attack on me but fail to say which part was incorrect on my part.

Look Philip S, I have told you, more than once, based on nothing more than your posts, I dislike you.
And that, it is my honestly held view, such as you, stifle true debate.
Lets leave it there, I am unlikely to find any good in your huffing and puffing.
We are told this country is unlikely to see homegrown terrorism.
By media such as the ABC and even ranting right the Murdock comic book press.
*Know* within ten minutes of the first Bali Bombing, a reporter*ASSURED*Australia, it was definitely not an act of terrorism, he fool that he was/is told of a large LPG storage out the back, that did it.
We one day, all too soon, will see evidence we are not safe here at home.
Australia is protected by the same idiots who put a known terrorist in a low security holding place!
Again why do we extend rights to some, knowing no such rights exist for us in their home country?

What we need to do is make sure they stay in their ghettoes as now. Then in a few years, when full civil war breaks out between the Muslim factions, as a development of the smoldering little war at present, we can keep out of the firing line.

Hell reporting it should be some of the best reality TV ever produced in Oz, [not hard really], we should be able to sell it into quite a few markets.

Could there actually be a profit from all these drop kicks we've been silly enough to admit to our once nice country?

While we are having a go! I think I'll throw in my 2 bobs worth.
Philip S, I don't like the way you part your hair, AND, further more I don't like that annoying habit of clearing your wobbles at every op you get! AND..... remember its your job to put the bin out on Tuesday nights! LOL
Hasbeen, Sounds great but let's hope that civil war reality show don't clash with my must watch, Home and Away. I'm not missing my favorite soapy for nothing.

Belly - Quote "you, stifle true debate" Please explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

I assume you will ignore the question you have a habit of making childish comments then failing to elaborate or answer questions regarding what you say.

Here are some questions I am still waiting for an answer to.

1) Your comment ""Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?"

The question you have failed to answer 6 times.
Can you please explain what part of my post infers what you allege it to infer?"

2) Your comment "You ordered me away from one of your threads"

Another question you fail to answer.
Please provide a link to this alleged incident."

Again I would like to remind you of a statement you made but don't seem to be able to abide by. Quote "I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite."

Paul1405 - Thank you for the present it is a god send.

The present being your last post, I have copied it and will re-post it at times just to remind people and yourself what can be expected trying to have a discussion with the likes of you.

It is a perfect example of hitting the keyboard before activating the brain to think about what you are writing.

Quote from Paul1405
"While we are having a go! I think I'll throw in my 2 bobs worth.
Philip S, I don't like the way you part your hair, AND, further more I don't like that annoying habit of clearing your wobbles at every op you get! AND..... remember its your job to put the bin out on Tuesday nights! LOL"

EPIC FAIL provided by Paul1405 At url

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5805&page=0#163226

Good stuff Paul1405, I'm glad to see you've got your TV watching priorities in order.

Philip S, I think there might have been a couple of imaginary smilies in there that you missed

"I think there might have been a couple of imaginary smilies in there that you missed" didn't miss them or the "LOL" ending.

I believe there is a time and place for things at the moment is not the time as the dispute with Belly is although humorous it is like talking to a brick wall. The timing and comment put him coming in on Belly's side.

If the comments were directed to the 2 parties or a bit to each OKAY but they were solely directed to me.

I possibly could have overreacted in this instance.

Hasbeen

Dunno if I agree totally with your 'dropkick' label on prophet followers, not because they aren't dropkicks, but because the word 'dropkick' implies a mentally challenged dumbcluck incapable of even the most basic tasks. Problem is they are all too capable & their fanatacism directs them to blood & guts / murder & mayhem whenever the opportunity presents itself. Could we actually be lucky enough to see them exterminate themselves, that would indeed be a nice thought but consider the possibility of another scenario whereby someone manages to unite all the warring factions against all infidels. For what its worth, there is reason to believe that will occur at some time in the future & personally I'd prefer that doesn't happen in Australia.

If it was a task this group had been given.
To find out why western world countrys get home grown terrorists.
Our first task would be to stay on subject.
While we could make a case that act is a by product of, Muslim *enclaveism*
We would then, if we wanted truth, have to admit, just maybe, not all want to live that way, or do.
I tend to think a thousand things impact , not only the terrorism in 2nd and third generations, but the religion, its flexibility, all in the wrong way, its build in *seperatism*, it preaches, lets not ignore, it is the true path and only true one.
PC stands guard against solutions!
Any effort to look for answers, in much that concerns us all, is stalled by the view, any view not strictly PC approved is the wrong one, not to be spoken about.
So, rather than descend further in to squabbles I again, have seen no answers, ask.
Is freedom of speech, that given to hate pages, but not to us, in countrys generating the hate, wise?

Belly "We one day, all too soon, will see evidence we are not safe here at home."

And it won't make one bit of difference.
There's already been ample incidents in other countries and their immigration policies don't change, the blame-whitey mentality doesn't change, and the promotion of naive utopian visions doesn't change.

Why? Because Muslims are the Achilles' heel of the whole multi shebang.
If they admit *this* people/culture/religion can't and won't fit into the West, it brings the *rest* into question too.
And they can't allow that can of worms to be opened.

Shockadelic - If they admit *this* people/culture/religion can't and won't fit into the West, it brings the *rest* into question too.
And they can't allow that can of worms to be opened.

I don't think I'm totally au fait with your argument. Are you suggesting that rejecting the politically correct view of islamification is unsustainable & that if we are to reject prophet followers then we must also reject ANY and all migrants ?? I may be construing something you didn't intend, hence the request for clarification.

Personally I perceive a GINORMOUS difference between islamics and every other mob thats ever lobbed here. Firstly the others have, by and large, left their troubles behind whereas islamics not only bring their historical issues but also constantly create new ones. Secondly, the others have come from societies with idealogies really not that much different from those in Australia whereas islamic idealogy is inherently totally incompatible with any other on planet earth. Thirdly, no other idealogy bar islam extols the 'women are chattels / reward for exterminating opposition / we will never integrate' features

Shockadelic,
I agree with you, especially under labor as they follow ideologies.

But there is a small light at the end of the tunnel.

In their last term the Howard government dropped the multicultural word and were just allowing MC to die out. I have no reason to not expect this to continue if they take office again. The current PM raised MC on a couple of occasions but it did not grow wings.

Anyway I intend to keep presure on the incoming mob to drop MC officially and then reconsider the non-discrimitary immigration policy. It has taken 40 years for them to wake up to the harm of MC as they are slow learners, so do not expect overnight success in not allowing those groups in that have shown they will not integrate.

However we have to keep on keeping on.

Belly - You AGAIN seem to have ignored the questions please be so kind as to back up your conclusions and comments.

Quote "you, stifle true debate" Please explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

I assume you will ignore the question you have a habit of making childish comments then failing to elaborate or answer questions regarding what you say.

Here are some questions I am still waiting for an answer to.

1) Your comment ""Philip S said by inference this man deserved to be MURDERED*
Would you both care to comment, or explain what you meant?"

The question you have failed to answer 6 times.
Can you please explain what part of my post infers what you allege it to infer?"

2) Your comment "You ordered me away from one of your threads"

Another question you fail to answer.
Please provide a link to this alleged incident."

Again I would like to remind you of a statement you made but don't seem to be able to abide by. Quote "I come here for intellectual stimulation, not the very opposite."

Poirot,

I have been delayed.

I don’t know about Fox News- I have never watched it. I just agree with Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the founders of South Park who don’t particularly like conservatives but despise liberals and their moral superiority and sophistry. Trey and Matt just don’t like any extremists you see, like myself, and I do consider progressives to be extremists. One extreme creates another, such as the Tea Party and others out there that we’re seeing. I just take the middle ground.

Howdy, Constance,

Do you not consider it a tad "extreme" to refer to ordinary opinionated people as extremists because they hold different views to your own?

Calling people with a left-wing bent "neo-Marxists", for instance, is a little over-the-top.

Seems a trifle reactionary to so fulsomely categorise people with whom you have next to no acquaintance.

Especially from someone who claims to take the "middle ground".....

Lexi

Why do I always get the same words from you -“personal attacks” (sounds emotional) - “Why not argue at an intelligent level not an emotional one?” I would have thought logic was included in intelligence. Again, how can you discuss the topic on this thread when you claim you don’t know anything about Islam and refuse to learn, listen or see?. You present no argument and only impede it with emotive broken record reaction, as usual. Don't you have a sense of inquiry?

You take things too personally. Grow up.

Neo Marxists equals New Left equals Global Authority versus Individual Liberty. This is the dominating phenomenal mindset that is occurring.

This is what Don Aitkin and Mark Christenson also seem to be saying in their articles. Dependance on the latest dogma and conforming nonetheless.

“Can someone still be classed as a neo-Marxist if they drive a ferrari?” Yes…it is also permissible to wear elegant hats, like yourself under their dogma. This is how weird the New Left are, but they are status seekers afterall.

I use to be partial to the Left once. The New Left are so easy to spot and always so boringly predictable.

I don't particularly like categorising people, but this is what old style liberals have to contend with these days

Philip, my post was aimed at Belly and his ridiculous barb directed at you.
"Look Philip S, I (Belly) have told you, more than once, based on nothing more than your posts, I dislike you."

That is as ridiculous as me saying I dislike you because of the way you part your hair, when I have never laid eyes on you.
I honestly fail to see how anyone can like or dislike others on a political forum like this one, purely based on their opinions. I give as good as I get, but I'm "UNINSULTABLE".

Hasbeen was correct, and p/s I don't think I have ever watch an episode of Home and Away or Neighbors for that matter. Maybe I'm strange. You said it Paul!

Constance,

Thanks for the impressive self-assessment.

You seem to think you're pretty hot stuff.

I wonder why, if you're such a great example of the "middle ground", why you find it necessary to post such snide and personal attacks on Lexi.

Are you bored with life - need to give a sneering critique to perk you up occasionally?

"You take things too personally. Grow up".

You're the one who needs to grow up, Constance, because swanning in here occasionally to have a snitchy swipe at Lexi, while camouflaging it under the guise of a general critique of lefties, isn't the action of a mature individual.

Paul1405 - Sorry for my misunderstanding and inappropriate reply.

praxidice, what I mean is that multiculturalism and the immigration that fuels it is a house of cards.
If our officials permit the questioning of one element, we might question another, and another, and another.

And before you know it, we're back to, shock horror, White Australia policy (which was in fact multicultural, as people from all over Europe could migrate here and did. What it wasn't was multi-*civilisation*-al, which is what we have now).

Well I think a few should research the first act of terrorism in this counrt,y.
It took place in, I think 1915, two ,and again I think,2 Turks, took on a train load of civilians, out back, NSW.
Yes Labor is more likly, or has been, to support failed Multiculturalism.
Liberals more likly, to oppose it, but only marginally more likely to stop it.
A simple truth, given the chance to vote on it, say a referendum, Australians, by a majority, would not continue it.
Call me racist, its OK , but truth, constructed on the words of such as the spokesman for the racist bigot from LAKEMBER Trad, and the man he serves, we will knowing brand our selves before continuing to import the *yes its wrong BUT problem*
Hate me for my thoughts honestly held, but know they are shared.
Know too the western world in confronted by problems it! introduced its self, including massive welfare for life types who while feeding from us tell us our life style is evil.
The PC brigade should think, and see, this religion by its very nature threatens world peace and stands in the way of true internationalism.
I tender the current madness of Muslim Murdering Muslim as evidence the concerns are well grounded.
A day must come when peace is valued more than one sided rights.
Paint your pictures of a world that never existed, but truth will be forced on us all, and we will regret imposing the pain on western world trying to ignore the nature we let in, and the fantasy of this religion crafted to hate,then lie and say not us to those they are told to hate.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/06/01/uk-iraq-violence-idUKBRE95004U20130601
The truly horrible truth behind my claims of Muslim killing Muslim.
Watch the blind.
They will come read, then blame the west for these tragic events.
They too, will continue not to see the very root cause of the problem, world wide and here.
Is the product of a religion that is incompatible with western thought and lifestyle.
Yet once here?
It both feeds on our freedoms and finds reason to hate it.

Shockadelic

From my perspective, the essential difference between the old 'White Australia' approach & the present 'open doors' one is that every other race on the planet bar those who follow the prophet, is capable of integrating, and hence adding something of value. The White Australia policy, by and large, only allowed migration of non-islamics, and as we've seen, races which could well have brought their troubles elected for a new life. The present policy effectively encourages races which follow islam & ignores the fact that they cannot integrate.

Oh yeah, Belly.

Have you anything to say about Americans murdering Americans - why death by firearm accounts for over 31,000 thousand deaths a year in the land of the free, not to mention scores more being maimed, not to mention other murders not by firearm.

Also have you got any info about Muslim countries invading non-Muslim countries - especially on the scale of Georgie Dubya's "shock and awe".

Lots of Muslims killed in that one (but I supposed to your way of thinking, at least it saved them the trouble of killing each other)

Any info on Muslim countries sending in drones to kill people in other countries - among them many many innocents - just like the US does?

Poirot

Whilst your argument about yanks being a mad mob is perfectly valid, they are without doubt a crazy lot, Belly does have a point in his story about islamics exterminating islamics (at least I think thats what he's on about). Australia is fortunate that islamics have to date at least focussed largely on others who follow a variation of their own idealogy. Eventually however they will get united & then the enemy will be infidels rather than the neighbouring shia or sunni or wahabbi tribe. None of the do-gooders clamouring for islamics have recognized the very real risk we face when we have islam united against everyone else.

Poirot, you are aware I think a great deal of you.
And share the same side of the fence.
However you may not be aware you just did it!
Used the Muslim chant!
Yes but what about!
Did you read the link? 1.000 DEAD! in a Month?
Are not the American murders mostly bought about by that countrys stark raving mad gun policy,s?
Flogging me with feathers of indignation will not change the truth.
Muslims, more than any race I know of, kill each other because of differing versions of following the same God.
If I could, with my large Black Coffee tomorrow, I would order up an instant God, one single one, for every race.
First commandment, thou shall let non believers think as they wish.
In a decade man would be on the way to being a single living together ,without hate, race.
Looks to me that religion alone separates us, and that PRIMITIVE belief that Gods require us to hate are stalling humanity.

Belly

You are partly on the right track with your criticism of religions, just be aware that its not the Gods themselves inciting violence but the power-mad humans who award themselves grandiose titles including imam / priest / rabbi / whatever

Belly,

"...1,000 DEAD! in a month.."

As bad as that is, it's nothing compared to the US, which can boast about 2 1/2 times that number "in a month" - just from gunfire alone.

And that's year in and year out - not because of isolated hostilities.

Any critique there at all?

Or is murder and mayhem different when it's carried out by Westerners?

Poirot,
I think it should be noted that American murders are mostly personal vandettas; rather than culturally religious and non discriminate against a body of people they despise.

Father Joe, and what is the point? How do murders that are mostly personal vendettas rate against the culturally religious murders. Religions throughout the ages have brought out the extremes in devotes. Islam as crude as it can be, is no different from Christianity. How often have so many perished at the hands of Christians, who have been culturally religious and non discriminate against a body of people they despise. Until all religions are obliterated from the planet we are going to be subjected to their intolerant murderous insanity.

Poirot, "it's nothing compared to the US, which can boast about 2 1/2 times that number 'in a month' - just from gunfire alone"

That is very misleading.

The leading cause of gun deaths in the US is male suicide,

"The study conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, WISQARS, revealed that more than 19,000 of the 31,000 deaths from guns in the United States in 2010 were suicides.

There has been a jump in suicides among middle-aged Americans by 28 percent from 1999 to 2010, the study showed."

BTW, In Australia, which is a world leader for male suicide, gun control made no difference to overall suicide numbers, hanging was always by far and above the most favoured method, and more hanged themselves. The sleeper in Australia is the number of men who suicide through 'lone driver' car accidents. Although the numbers are thought to be significant, there is no study done and no inclusion in overall suicide statistcs

Wow...onthebeach, that is indeed startling news.

Thanks for that info.

It is easy to throw the odd red herring around, to try to take the threads intent away.
But in just mentioning *home grown terrorism*, how many think of other than some Muslims or those with Muslim roots?
Those who have been here for a while, know I was once a committed Christian, full on one.
And it sinks deep in to us who can say that.
Not the God Myth, but the wiseness behind the Bibles content, along very often, with yes and no statements on any question.
Apart from Catholic Church, I no longer see hope or even the intent, from that Church to change/be come true followers of their God.
I think little harm is done by Christians, todays Christians, in comparison with some others.
If man was to implement, by invention, one God, sacrifices would need to be made, by them all.
And in time by our free will or forced on Humanity, it seems the only likely way, we can live in peace, and some thing we will do, most liky forced but over all productive..
Poirot, 1.000 dead, one month, to set up in defense of that number, children and women, old and infirm, is to put on display, some thing awful!
Rather than confront those, and every murder it seems you are unconcerned about the murders.

Belly,

Your Reuters article won't load on my PC at the moment, so I can't read it...but if it refers to the ongoing violence in Iraq, what do you want me to say?

Bush and his cronies decided it was time to bomb the daylights out of the country. That was after inflicting years of misery, death and disease through sanctions - once they'd finished playing tiddlywinks with their one time "friend", Saddam.

That was to destabilise whatever order there was and leave a huge power vacuum...that's a huge "power vacuum".

Those of us who opposed the invasion always knew that this would cause major long-term problems for Iraqis.

Iraq was one of the most developed countries in the Middle-East before "Shock and Awe", the most advanced in medical infrastructure and in higher learning.

Oh yeah, Belly, do you think I'm unconcerned with the ongoing carnage? It's exactly what I and many others predicted would happen.

Who brought the present situation about?

Hint - it wasn't Muslims.

Poirit

The yanks are certainly a worry, more so since our dumbcluck elected officials have an insatiable wont to join any conflabs initiated by the self-appointed intergalactic police. There is no doubt that willingness to chuck rocks (and whatever) at those who choose to wear tea-towels on their heads hasn't exactly endeared either the septic-tanks or Australians to those prophet-following folk. Total military withdrawal from all islamic countries would do far more to enhance peace than any amount of political mumbo-jumbo doublespeak. All that aside, I'm totally anti ANY islamic migration here, any that is allowed should be under EXTREMELY stringent conditions.

Poirot,
The 1000 deaths in April were not all from Iraq, but all were carried out in the name of Allah. From another source that keeps tabs on such, terrorist attacks April 202, deaths 957,criticly injured 2403 This was over 25 countries.

There have been 21000 terrorist attacks by muslims since 9/11.

All muslim immigration should be stopped in the interests of containing violence in the community here. Take the Sunnis verses Shites violence over the Syrian civil war as an example. Islam does not allow integration into other societies.

Banjo - Islam does not allow integration into other societies.

Quite true, unfortunately the do-gooder tribe never bothered to read islam 101

The shia - sunni disagreements are only the tip of the iceberg. We've already seen preliminary altercations in Sydney between those relatively moderate sects and the extremist wahabbi mob. When, as is inevitable, the sects unite, we'll have the forerunner of World War 3 on our doorstep.

Banjo and Prax,

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2013/04/01/infographic-tool-offers-detailed-look-deaths-by-u-s-drone-attacks/

These 3,000 deaths were carried out in the name of Western imperialism.

http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

(Note the term "other" applies to any Pakistani male aged between 15 and 40 - irregardless of whether that person is a combatant or not)

3,121 deaths - taking out 48 high-profile combatants. 535 civilian deaths. 175 child deaths. 2363 "other" deaths.

I note they're not included in your tally of terrorist atrocities.

Oh yeah, - remote control murder of innocents carried out by the US doesn't count

Poirot

I'm not aware that I've ever condoned yankee imperialism, in fact that mob of lunatics has consistently been second on my list of utterly irresponsible nations. The septic tanks are the reason Australia has been coerced into stupid conflicts that don't concern us & why this country is a target for fanatics wont to wear tea-towels on their heads (mind you if we had elected officials who exhibited anything remotely approximating intelligence it might be different)

We all could benefit from an understanding how dispute ending works.
It never can, if we continue to side step the issue as it currently is.
Going back to a past event, while ignoring a history preceding that event, is a sure way to not change anything.
A very longtime before America and the coalition of the willing, invaded Iraq Sunni killed Shiite.
If we want to make a case, we can name Britain for these troubles.
But we avoid the very heart and reason, for the murders.
And in doing so avoid any chance we can help fix it.
If I say it, racism will be the charge leveled against me.
But truth can carry that brand.
So a growing understanding *SOME* Muslims are uneducated.
SOME have no idea about the west or the good done by them,only the bad.
I will never understand, never, why the left only sees bad in us of the west,and only good in this home of so much hate, religion.
If this religion did not exist nor would these terrorist acts.
But education, lack of it plays a roll.

Belly,
If the government wants to stop home grown terrorism, this is the bloke they should listen to.

Nobody puts it more accurate, plainer or simpler. He has heaps of videos, this is one.

http://dotsub.com/user/patcondell

Banjo - If the government wants to stop home grown terrorism

Key word being 'If'

Do you think either major party really gives a rats ?? The ALP and their Greens appendage are beholden to all manner of do-gooder ratbags & educated idiots & the LNP mob don't have the nous to know or care

Belly,

It's "not" that I only see "bad" in the West - far from it.

What you don't seem to get is that you and your cronies only ever point out "bad" from Muslim countries - always ignoring similar atrocities committed by the West.

I don't start up threads to point out Western atrocities (of which their have been legion) - but the whack-a-mozzie brigade are always starting up threads to do just that involving Muslims.

That's the difference.

Australia Poirot has made up its mind.
Greens/left have helped.
Muslim migration is the reason boat people are unwanted.
We must see, most of this country do not share your thoughts.
And just as the ALP must stop trying to sell its well rotten fish [Gillard] to hungry workers outside a free fish n chips shop.
No ground can be made avoiding the need for change lives in Muslim community not within us, increasingly the victims of a group thinking we should be more like them.

Belly - Muslim migration is the reason boat people are unwanted.

Hey Belly, for once at least I'm actually in agreeance with your post :) Mind you, you could have mentioned the COST of boat people too, but i don't wish to be too picky.

I would prefer to live in America rather than Syria, Parkistan or Afganistan. At least those in power in USA do not murder their innocent citizens [innocent by our culture and standards].

Josephus - those in power in USA do not murder their innocent citizens

Well apart from the World Trade Towers, the Pentagon, Oklahama City & a bunch of others

Josephus,

It's hard to disagree with that sentiment - especially since Syria and Afghanistan are currently war zones - and Pakistanis are subject to murder by drone from the US.

I'm supposing that if America was a war zone, you'd probably choose another country (not at war)as your preferred locale.

prax very little you say gets past my own filter but this time?
See I know and have said so, at least 50 times, we are not being told the true cost of the boats.
[ENOUGH TO PAY FOR GONSKI AND CHANGE]
FOR ALL HEALTH NEEDS!
I same again, am not hiding my party,s blame for the BL&^DY CRISIS.
OK so far? am I now safe to say this?
Greens stupidity is not the only reason they are still coming.
Think we me, greens by locking them selves in the parliamentary toilets saying lets do nothing.
Are contemptible.
Abbott however is too, his single true reason, his *only reason*
For not letting the Malaysian solution be trialled is *HE KNOWS IT WILL WORK*
Now if a parent, if you are blind enough to call them that, puts a child on a leaking boat, and we sent them back who would you blame.
Do not discount my views Abbott has made his task, stopping them, much harder.
But just his election will slow the flow.

Belly

I have very slightly less confidence in Rabbott than I do the red-headed witch and that is so little even an electron microscope would have extreme difficulty finding it. Whilst we don't have a clue what the REAL cost of illegals is, you are undoubtedly correct in saying it would pay for a LOT. I also concur with your assessment of the Greens, oxygen is wasted on that lot. Dunno where you get your confidence in the RAbbott though ... someone low enough to pull that despicable trick on One Nation, that would accept the criminally insane salary increase initiated by the red-headed witch & who would do a deal with the devil herself without a hint to his compatriots whilst lying to all and sundry to cover his tracks isn't exactly someone I'd take seriously. I don't give a rats if eveery other politician on planet earth 'does the same', his actions are utterly deplorable and indicative of a bottom-feeding grub who should rightfully be confined to a dungeon.

There P in your own words is the reason I take little notice of your post.
Use the words the English system gives us to insult.
Abbott is no true Liberal.
But if he was almost any one, he would win this election.
Gillard lacks trust worthiness and the basic skill to tell her story.
BUT people smugglers are filling the boats now!
Because Gillard has her back turned , until she wakes up, Abbott will by just being elected stop many boats.
Have you considered our fate?
Two self serving leaders , only one soon,and no need for policy,s, see Abbott could hide in one of those Telstra pits, and come out on 14/9 as PM, he needs not,say a word, maybe not your description but Gillard wins Liberals an extra vote every time she opens her mouth.

Belly

Some of what you say is fine, but there are other games in play than the red-headed witch vs Rabbott one.

Abbott is no true Liberal. questionable

But if he was almost any one, he would win this election. probably

Gillard lacks trust worthiness understatement of the century

and the basic skill to tell her story. agreed

BUT people smugglers are filling the boats now! agreed

Because Gillard has her back turned , until she wakes up, Abbott will by just being elected stop many boats. highly doubtful, his proposal is flimsy

Have you considered our fate? constantly

Two self serving leaders , no argument there

belly, "Abbott is no true Liberal"

LOL, monkey see, monkey do.

Labor's Andrew Leigh tried to work that one recently to the usual poor effect.

It is one of the same old, same old, Labor tactics to attack the Liberals' strength (having broad appeal) with the aim of causing a split between liberal and conservative in the Liberal Party. Hawke and Keating, both of whom were to become multimillionaires representing international entrepreneurs and foreign governments' interests, screamed 'Tory' a lot when they were in Parliament and always unconvincingly.

David Kemp in his 'The Liberals: A Short History of Liberalism in Victoria and Australia', the Liberal Party is "most successful when [it has] involved people broadly in the party and its causes. It is one of [the Party’s] great competitive strengths over Labor with its narrow sectional organisation."

The narrowness of Labor's organisation has been demonstrated over and over again as union heavies are involved in overthrowing an uncumbent PM, Kevin Rudd, and in dirty tricks such as the fracas of aboriginal tent protesters invading The Lobby Restaurant in Canberra to disrupt the Australia Day Awards, all because Tony Abbott was one of the guests. It was the infamous angry riot that led to the PM Julia Gillard fleeing shoeless to her government limousine.

This prax is the place politics gets a bit serious.
Some say Labor has moved to the right, with justification.
And Liberals further right, with justification.
In fact that party,s founder if alive today may well be a Labor leader.
Here is both the reason Labor moved and the sometimes damaging things it bought with the move.
Australians, believe me unionists/workers, are uniterested in Socialism.
Labor followed them, to survive, Liberals, after another red head, took its place further to the right, picking up some of her policy,s and most voters.
Labor, count me in this, was not truly thinking about the reaction to going easy on boat people, we got that wrong, Abbott never let us fix it.
So Labor had its other party watching to harm it, at the polls, the Greens, a party of words with no true intention to actually use its once only numbers in the home for geriatrics,failures and those to be rewarded for being useless, the senate.
We acting to keep our members away from them, lost memory's of just how much this country valued Howard stopping them.
Two party,s,both trying to keep two main factions in their camp, and we all suffer.
Abbott is not a Liberal, he will not last, but it will not be Labor that sees to that.
Get ready for extended protests and union action, but if you love our country hope the extremes both sides keep in their chook pen,extremes one vote one value is our best hope. .