Some of the comments comming out of Davids smacking thread have lead me to think that a discussion on the contents of a parents discipline toolkit could be useful for all parents of children (vs parents of adults).

The tool kit has a number of sections
- The tools to reinforce behaviours we want to encourage - rewards/encouragement
- The tools we use to discourage behaviours we think are harmful or innapropriate
- Crisis management tools - punishment/consequences - a child is having a tantrum somewhere where I can't just let them go for it.
- The list of things to leave alone. The bits that are just part of being a child and which a wise parent enjoys as part of childhood.

To start the ball rolling
RE (rewards/encouragement) - A star chart with special activities resulting from a build up of stars
- Hugs and words of encouragement and pride in behaviour
- Special time with the child, a bike ride in an area they love etc
DB (discourage behaviour) - handwriting practice and other school work type activities
- journalling (try and encourge reflection and think about better strategies)
- tech ban. Computer games, PS, Xbox etc off limits for a while. Can also include favourite DVD's etc.
- Simplified meals - focus on nutrition more than flavor. Treats disappear for a while.
CM (crisis management) - time out
- smack ? Some like it some don't
- restraint - there are safe ways to restrain a child.
- ignore ?
DB (Don't bother) - Music playing with no skill (except when the noise is disturbing others unreasonably)
- Moderately messy room (occasional cleanups needed)

Some of the tools will be useful at certain ages and inappropriate at other ages. My son is 9 so the contents of the toolbox are mostly ones I keep around.

Over to others to expand on the list or raise objectsions to bits that they don't like. To avoid getting bogged down in one issue can we keep the debate on smacks to David's thread please.

R0bert

Great idea, RObert. I reckon the specifics might apply to different age groups, but the general principles probably have applicability across different ages and stages. Look forward to following this thread.

Hello robert , your list is a daunting one , pretty close to exausting
the subject but not much use as to " what to do ....now " type of
situation .
Being in the perfect situation of having been a child and having had to
raise one , it is pretty obvious than one could abord the problem
from the point of view of the parent~situation side .
So here it goes , assuming this is for the parents~carer

-1 Are you in a good mood or in an homicidial desperate streak
if either ...one's reaction are suspect

-2 what is the need for immediate reaction , as a rule children have
no " wrongdoing memory " and a good smack on the spot would be
accepted as fair enought , while a punisment delayed too long
would be seen as " grossly unfair "

-3 proportionnality , the punisments should have roughly a three
levels graduation from here and now , end of the story , to weeks
long deprivation of a cherished activity

-4 smacking a child work only when they are little and decease in
value with age , increasing the violence of the punisment is a
hopeless endeavour bringing diminishing returns

-5 never lecture a child it's a waste of time !

-6 never humiliate or shame a child ,it is totaly destructive
never threaten to withdraw love ,it is evil

-7 boys and girls are differents ,

-8 punishment are reassuring to a child , it give them a sense of
order , children are so straights !

-9 never apologise for punishing them , it mix the signals , a bit
of arbitrary injustice give them a fine sense of society values

-10 love them all the time for their trespasses as much as for their
qualities , and give more cuddles than punisments .
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snout thanks, I suspect that not only age but also temperment and as Randwick points out gender will play a part in the relevant tools for the toolkit. Every child is different and we need to stock the toolkit with things that work with the child (and for us).

Randwick that is a great list and an important way of looking at it. We need a good set of tools (I hope that others are able to suggest either alternate tools or variations on them) and some idea on how and when to use them.

R0bert

R0bert,

I appreciate what you are trying to achieve.

I like the idea of a tool-kit from which you can select what you want. However, some parents don't seem to be aware when a smack is inappropriate, if ever.

Also as has been stated maturity means using different tactics, also different kids mature at different rates.

Are there hard and fast rules?

Support, openness, flexibility, unconditional love, firm guidelines (but nothing should be set in concrete - maybe an excursion into a park late at night was to rescue a baby bird - I used to go out and catch insects in the early morning hours - best time).

Just always being there for your child is the most important.

My niece and nephew are easy going by natural inclination - other kids require more intensive interaction. So guess I haven't had to deal with really difficult kids.

Anyway, all this is off the top of my head. Am time poor and brain not working.

Cheers

Another key item that should be in the toolbox is support between significant adults (parents, teachers etc).

We may not always agree with the others initiatives but undermining their efforts at discipline (positive or negative) can be much more destructive than in innapropriate discipline - I'm not talking about abuse here.

Back the teachers, back the other parent. Let your kids know you are looking out for them but don't teach them that you will support them in wrong doing.

As with everything else it needs common sense and thought.

R0bert

Important point, ROb.

I'm not a parent. I work with young men in juvenile justice. I know these aren’t finely honed tools, but here are the principles of what I’ve learned over the last few years:

1. Don’t worry too much about whether a kid likes you. The important thing is whether he/she can trust you. Kids can always find someone to like. Some kids are so damaged by abuse that trust takes a long, long, time to develop. Say “no” when you know this is the right thing to say. In the meantime you can feel content if you know that you have behaved in a trust-worthy manner. Every bit helps.

2. Never humiliate or belittle a kid. Always treat them respect, even – no, especially - when you’re laying down the law. At the same time, don’t overprotect them from feeling healthy shame. This is a tricky distinction.

3. When things are getting tense, don’t raise your voice - do the opposite: the quieter, slower and more carefully you speak, the more it focuses their attention on what you’re saying. Don’t be afraid of the pregnant silence. This only works if you can get and hold their attention in the first place, but try it – you’ll be amazed.

4. Be very clear about your own boundaries. It is part of the job description of an adolescent (or a toddler) to test them. Kids learn their own boundaries by bumping them up against other people’s. When you provide a firm, predictable “counter-boundary” the result is sometimes a tantrum in the short term, but a more secure, confident person in the long term. Focus on the long term.

5. Mimicry is a fundamental mode of learning for all higher animals, especially humans. If your own behavior reflects what you’re trying to teach, you’re halfway there.

I’ve learned this stuff by experience dealing with drug addicted and drug seeking kids as a medical doctor. I have a lot of respect for parents who have to wing it without the support I’ve had

P.S.

6. Have fun.

7. Play.

8. Joke.

9. Enjoy and marvel at the emerging human spirit you have the privilege to share with.

Snout, great stuff. Item 1 on your list has been a struggle for me in dealing with family law issues, ongoing involvement in your kids life can be influenced by that single factor.

Thankfully I've managed to stay involved all the way through but playing favourites has been used as a weapon against me at times. Generally my son and I have a very good relationship but there are times when he fails to see the value in boundaries and consequences.

Your insights as someone dealing with kids who've come out of the growing up part of life with significant issues are valuable to those of us in the middle of the process.

There is an aspect of winging it involved but I'm also feeling that parents have a lot of resources available to them. My sons new school has a responsible thinking classroom(public, the private school he used to go to did not have that), state schools also have guidance officer and other resources, my local council runs parenting programs, book stores are full of books, there are crisis help lines, nutritional advice, TV programs featuring parenting tips and wonder makeovers of kids behaviour, etc, etc, etc. The downside to that is there is always an "expert" opinion that disagrees with the choices we make as parents. There is always somebody holding up an ideal that we fall short on at times.

The bit that may be missing is the aspect of hands on local community involvement, none of my family live real close (no extended family living next door or in the house). I grew up in a rural valley where most of the residents were relatives and there were some good bits to that (and a few negatives).

R0bert

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good one snout , and best of luck !!

something not mentionned yet is a certain humour ,
it's not appropriate for the serious stuff ,
but I've found than to de dramatise the situation help to make
the punisment more matter of fact and less an interpersonnal power play .
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Some terrific points are being made here.

Snout has touched upon something I have been wanting to discuss with his point 5.

We hear a lot of "my way or the highway"

or "do as I say not as I do".

We hear this as adults from other adults who consider themselves in positions of authority. And we hear the sheer hypocrisy of such statements.

So do our kids.

Whatever happened to "lead by example"?

Surely one of the most inspiring things is to see people in authority pitching in as part of the group or team.

Children watch everything we do. And, as Snout said, they will mimic us, just look at the games they play such as War Games.

I think perhaps, that leading by example should be at the top of the list.

What do others think?

I am also curious to know what others think of the term, 'tough love' is it necessary?, what does it mean to them? and does it achieve its objective, which I guess is complete obedience.

Scout, agreed that living by the values we want our children to learn is somewhere near the top of the list (I don't do well at absolute rankings).

Tough Love, I certainly would not consider absolute obedience as a goal, I want my son to learn the skills to think for himself. What I'm giving him are the tools to make that process work.

Tough love is not a term I tend to use but I identify with what I consider to be the goals. The stuff I think it's about are (not ordered in any meaningful manner). Some of these may be very similar
- teaching kids about consequences for actions and choices
- allowing them to stretch themselves even if it does mean some pain for either themselves or their parents (I have some rescuer tendencies so it hurts me to leave my son struggling with a problem rather than solving it for him)
- teaching kids to think ahead enough to make better decisions
- teaching kids to be willing to stretch their perceived limits
- desensitising them to the little hurts, if it's a little hurt then don't treat it as a big deal. That does not mean inflicting gratitous hurt, more about how we deal with the hurts that happen in life.
- its about teaching kids to keep lifes ups and downs in some proportion

As with all of the stuff we are discussing it requires some wisdom and thought to do well and will need to be adjusted for different stages of a childs life. It needs generous applications of affection all the way through so it do does not look like indifference.

R0bert

Well done Robert !

Keep up the positive, constructive approach to an important issue.

No argument from me.

I simply add or underline that all discipline should be in the context of love, and when children understand that, they don't go out and beat up grannies or pick on little kids just because their mums or dads disciplined them occasionaly with a sore bum.

I also doubt that when they are in a committee meeting and find the mood going against them, that they will rise up out of their seats and 'assault' the 'no' voters because they were taught "Solve disagreements with violence" by parental smacks on the bum.

Does any one have any evidence to suggest that such outcomes occurr and are connected with corporal punishment as a child ?

BD, thanks for the comments. I really do want to keep debate over smacking over on your thread, it's an important discussion but I don't want to loose what we are trying to achieve here with another debate on that topic.

So far contributers have managed to avoid lining up with their teams to support their position and have instead come in with some really good points that we can all get something from. I'm hoping that this general area will provide great opportunities for sharing our best as well as opportunities to debate contentious issues.

If you are looking for another contentious issue seemingly being pushed by a small group in regard to childrens well being why not take up the recent article on not saying "no" or "don't" to children - http://www.news.com.au/sundaymail/story/0,,20267446-3102,00.html .

I'd be interested to see the response to that issue. I certainly keep those words in my toolkit and consider both important for development.

R0bert

good article maybe this is going too far ,what next a summon to desist
for four years old ? but the context is a day care center !

as for smaking kids , that's cool if youre cool I would think ,
much better than a soul destroying emotionnal demolition job
it's ok in small dose , certainly less than once a week ,between the
age of four and nine for boys , no implements and keeping in mind than
it's a therapy for the parent as much as the child , it's probably
better to smack them than to resent them .

randwick, I suspect that the place where discipline starts to go wrong is when we allow it to become therapy for the adult or to be driven by our own emotional needs. Giving a kid a belt or a tongue lashing because it makes us feel better is where we start to do harm. Tempting though it is when we need to find a different way of doing things.

Discipline of children must always be a deliberate strategy aimed at teaching them the behavious and skills necessary to deal with life in a constructive manner, the tools will vary depending on the where the child is at (and our ability to use those tools safely) but the goal must always be the childs development, never our own needs.

R0bert

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Yep ! being in control of violence against the defenceless is
powerful stuff indeed and , I suspect , addictive to the weak minded .

A good reason to discourage the casual use of the practice is not
only the damage to the child but also the damage to the parent ,
it can become a solution to all the day troubles and bother ,
including an annoying kid !
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