http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/coalition-would-increase-gst-swan-warns/story-fn3dxiwe-1226630573824
The link is to a Swan statement saying an incoming Liberal government will increase it.
Why not?
First talked of by Labor before Howard put it in place, the roof has not fallen down as a result.
Tax reform has stalled only feeble efforts have been made so far.
Why not increase GST at a higher rate on high priced goods , but an over all increase, and kill some existing needling taxes?
Increase or cut services most I hope would rather increase.

Every time I have spoken of tax reform, even after mentioning saving current waste.
And highlighting that it is another issue, but one we should not ignore, the main direction of the thread is lost.
Lets look at the link, if it remains available, some are short lived.
Is a higher GST in its self a threat?
Has Britain's VAT Value Added Tax remained at its introduction levels? not sure what it is.
But with story,s telling us our country is being milked by tax avoidance I see, while no answer for avoidance GST at least taxes us all.
We know, surely, taxes will rise under the incomeing government, so why not roll up many with a 15% GST.

Belly, the GST is a ridiculous tax as it goes round and round the merry go round, and it only ever gets paid by the end consumer, as all other payees get their GST refunded.

Furthermore, it creates mountains of needless paperwork, and running a small business today is rarely possible without a book keeper, an accountant and a lawyer.

Furthermore, GST hurts the poor, as the poor require 100% of their income/benefits just to survive.

A far better alternative, which for some reason is off the table, is a true FINANCIAL TRANSACTION TAX, as unlike a GST that can only be collected once, a TT tax gets collected on every single one of the billions of transactions made every single day, and the best part about it is PEOPLE only ever pay a very, very small tax ONCE, but THEIR MONEY continues to collect tax.

A true TT tax would remove mountains of red tape from business, large and small, while providing huge amounts of extra dollars for all to spend which will stimulate the economy FOREVER.

It even has the potential to bring wages back to a more sustainable level, without effecting consumers finances, because if real wages were decreased by say 10%, wage earners would still be far better off than they are today, as a TT would see more dollars in their pocket, even if their wages dropped by 10%, because at the end of the day, wages are not important, it's what's left after tax that is, and a TT would see a huge increase in disposable incomes.

So increasing the GST is a very anti productive move in my view.

Increasing the GST would only be of benefit if it were to be the only Tax. If people don't want to pay more tax they can just vote Coalition instead of Labor, simple !

Brilliant idea Belly,

Now that the money they had in the bank has been spent, the national debt has been successfully grown from zero to $200 bn plus, forward commitments for NDIS, Gonski and NBN have yet to be paid for, not enough income from the Mining Tax and generally “no visible means of support”, why not pull some more money out of the economy to fund even more debt?

Here was I thinking you lot had already run out of our money?

I despair for our children and our grandchildren who will be left with your legacy of crippling debt, deficit, a sick economy and ruinous taxes from their hard earned income.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have the current generation suffer the austerity consequences of their own actions rather than saddle someone in the future with them?

But I guess if you don’t accept responsibility you won’t mind if others get financially flogged?

Well done

spindoc,
that's one thing that leaves me speechless with the likes but especially Belly. They constantly waffle on about how Australian they are or would like to be but on the other hand they simply don't give a hoot how many much more decent Australians do it really tough because of the crook & incompetent outfits they support. Where has their decency & integrity gone ? How stupid does one have to be to be like that. Scary !

No matter how hard it is in the future, whether through cutbacks or not to spending, there should always be a need for taxation reform to both reduce unecessary complexity and ensure fairness.

Dear Belly,

Increase the GST?

Definitely not.

Taxes are paid by people with an income as a set
percentage of that income. GST is paid as a fixed
percentage on all goods and services other then
essentials required to survive such as food and
medicine.

Increasing the GST will only penalise
the vunerable in our society even more.

The rich don't want to increase taxes but they do want
to increase the GST so that the poor further support
their ever increasing wealth.

Now which do you think is fair - increasing taxes on
the rich, or increasing the GST for everybody?

Which option do the two major parties support?

spindoc,

"Wouldn't it be nice to have the current generation suffer the austerity consequences of their own actions rather than saddle someone in the future with them?"

I wonder.....what if you replaced "austerity" with "climatic"...it's what we've been saying all along.

I wonder what will occur tax-wise if Abbott's about-face eventuates?

http://watchingthedeniers.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/how-tony-abbott-killed-the-australian-climate-sceptic-movement-and-schooled-them-in-realpolitik/

(sorry for slight deviation, Belly...but in the end it's all tax related)

Anyone who is not supporting national service & flat tax is not supporting a level playing field full stop.
No ifs no buts.
Give people the right to compete at their optimum & they will produce & reward to the optimum. Hanging off the country's apron is not economic sense. it's nothing short of bludging.

Poirot,

If you could measure and quantify the inputs, outputs, balance on hand, assumptions and forward commitments of CO2 in the CAGW debate in the same way we can with national finances, you might be on a winner.

All you have to do is produce a CAGW Budget.

Your problem is that not one single scientist anywhere on the planet has yet balanced the CO2 budget. Like poor Wayne, you can't find the "surplus".

There is always some prediction missing, lost warming, lost CO2, lost sea level rises, increased polar bear population, lost and regained polar ice, shrinking or growing glaciers, snow where it shouldn’t be and severe weather ending up as, well, just severe weather.

I do have a suggestion for you though. Why don’t you apply “WayneOmics” to your CO2 budget problem? I’m convinced that with his talent for getting it wrong and your talent for finding obscure links, the two of you could work it all out?

If you have any difficulty there is a new "Denial Hotline" I can point you to.

Thank you, spindoc,

But, pray tell, what do you think of Abbott's plans, considering you've written off the whole carbon trading/tax thingy in general?

(Here is the same issue from Jo, if you prefer it from a "skeptic source)

http://joannenova.com.au/2013/04/australian-conservatives-going-labor-lite-pandering-to-the-green-vote-or-just-confused/

Ok Belly, so let's look at this from another prospective, if you will.

Other than an increase to the GST, how do you propose an incoming government pays back the MASSIVE debt, left by these incompitent fools, aided over the past 6 odd years by their loyal supporters?

Any suggestions?

What an amazing swifty distraction Poirot. Question? What Question?

Back to the balancing of budgets.

<<Your problem is that not one single scientist anywhere on the planet has yet balanced the CO2 budget. Like poor Wayne, you can't find the "surplus".>>

And your response to this would be what precisely?

Abbott has nothing to do with it Poirot, just a convenient distraction. Look! Another Unicorn.

The whole global warning thingy went up in a puff of smoke. I didn’t do it, Abbott didn’t do it.

Kyoto finally expired after 18 years in intensive care with no friends at its bedside. The global renewables industry has collapsed and the CO2 emissions trading markets have imploded.

The reason for this was bad science. In the end your pseudo-science couldn’t even muster enough credibility to sustain that which was created for it. Not my bad science and not Abbott’s bad science.

It was your science Poirot, all yours. If you can’t balance your budget you will have to join Wayne’s World in exile.

As for the CO2 Tax and all the bureaucracies supporting it? Abbott will of course regrettably sacrifice them all in the interests of his own surplus. Watch closely to see how it’s done Poirot.

PS, Don’t forget the question

INDIVIDUAL, PLEASE DO NOT BE OFFENDED, YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD, AS EXPECTED IS WRONG TOTALLY SO!
a truth than can not be challenged is under Labor we have paid less tax than under Howard/Costello.
SPIN doc,not unexpected from you, a failure to under stand a simple truth.
The link is about your side putting it up, mine will be sitting in the first few opposition seats, not in need of many more, but thanks, for the rant.
First Labor then Liberals bought the tax to this country.
It was, in part, meant to replace SOME tax.
And it remains a tool I think likely, to be introduced by Abbott.
And, in truth we need a true tax reform program.
We stunt out country,s growth with taxes like the huge impost on fuel, via tax.
We could, just maybe, cut that with higher GST.
And we could get rid of little niggling tax,s that cost near as much to collect as they bring.

Belly mate it is not the tax we have paid, but the tax we & our kids are going to have to pay to cover the interest on the enormous debt your mates have run up.

There is also the small question of the 10s of billions damn fool promise for the NBN, the Disability Insurance Scheme, [what a fool name for a handout], & the Gonski report among others, all unfunded.

Add to this the drop in tax receipts we will experience when the full effect carbon tax & the mining tax, now just starting to kick in, turn the mining boom off, & doubling the GST would not fix the problem.

What we need is an IQ test for candidates. No one with an IQ below 80 should be allowed to stand. That would avoid idiots like Swan, Wong, & those green harpies from the south, getting into parliament again.

http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/get_on_with_gst_reform_iCTIX0OwE0FY2w2zDfGj5J
God forbid we ever get an IQ test for posters Hasbeen!
My link, please read before commenting Indy and SPIN doc, shows many more than I consider it a worth while thing.
Both sides know tax reform must come.
Both sides, in my view, should also consider cuts and improved outcomes for all money spent.
Gillard has over spent, not in GFC , well not much,but she has with help, assured a Liberal coalition will have plenty of time in office.
We all should take a breath when tax and its reform are mentioned.
We just must pay enough, or cut services .
Many after reading yesterdays news,will know NSW councils want/seemingly will, stop pensioner rebates on council rates.
Seems in this state, the only one, state government does not return to councils in full, the rebate.
12 Billion shortfall in tax takings touted for this financial year, do we end free education, cut health services? how do we pay for all we ask from government?
Labors center and left, along with the red necks section of Liberals,Nationals Tea Party , will always cry about paying more, but too want more in drought or fire flood or any difficulty.
A tax reform that greatly increases GST, while dropping many others, maybe most others, can be used without the pain some wrongly thought the Howard GST would bring.
Both sides need to see the very real implications of not having the money to keep current services.

If everyone were to have to pay the same rate of tax everyone who wants to make more than the next could do so. Their only barrier being demand & competence. I for one can not think of a more balanced system. It would be a win, win all around. To make us better too as citizens throw in a couple of years of national service & I guarantee you that we'd be the Nation others would look at as a role model. It can be achieved, just ignore the handful of greed bags who'll scream blue murder.

Now let me see if I’ve got this right Belly,

We had a huge Tax Reform Review from Ken Henry, yes?

It was comprehensive; broad based and considered all sources of taxable income right across the entire economy, yes?

The ALP government “bottled it” and instead started picking away at “populist” bits of it like the ill fated mining tax, yes?

The ALP government then continued spending more than it earned, much of the money spent, self evidently did not produce a return on investment for the Australian economy, yes?

Now we have yet another deficit rather than the promised surplus, yes?

We also now face structural deficits for many years, yes?

With expenditure exceeding income at a time when global markets are shrinking, the opportunity to return to surplus any time soon is also limited, yes?

The “Goose” who wrought this mess is our illustrious Treasurer, yes?

Now the last bastion of fiscal common sense (sic), The Financial Review, is now bagging out the “Goose” for not pushing for GST reforms to shore up that last fragments of ALP fiscal mismanagement, yes?

Now I wonder Belly, why do you think the Goose is not pushing a GST reform?

http://theconversation.com/meaningful-tax-reform-only-if-everything-is-on-the-table-13575
Indy your last post took leaps and bounds in its effort to get away from reality.
SPIN doc more no,s than yes in that post.
But let us both be honest, it will be your party, not mine that introduces higher GST.
Read the three links.
But understand, lead by Gillard, Labor lacked the guts to truly reform tax.
Read if you care to, and others posting here, the three links I have posted, and some of the hundreds a goggle search will bring up.
Malaysia, Japan, India, all include it as a tool.

BUT give thought to this, very many taxes, like the tax on property transfers, could be rolled up and burnt after GST took the place of so very many.
Now SPIN doctor, well named, how can you hurl insults at me, and Labor knowing as you must, it is your side who will bring it in.
Can we debate the benefits and problems without SPIN?

"Urgent and Grave"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-29/gillard-flags-spending-cuts-tax-hikes/4657712

after the last 5 years of economic vandalism anything possible. Thanks Greens/Labour for your total irresponsibility. Rudd claimed to be an economic conservative. So many will still vote Labour/Greens. What does that tell you?

Indy your last post took leaps and bounds in its effort to get away from reality.
Belly, Belly, Belly,
If you think that my push for change is not a valid one then you'd better go & talk to those people I work & talk with. They're normal folk with real jobs in a real environment. They all agree with me, they're starting to see what's going on. The bureaucrats don't agree openly but deep down they know their days are numbered & their bandwagon is screeching to a halt.

Thanks for that link Poirot.

Well, there you have it; Labor has just admitted that it completely can’t handle the budgetary task.

Why couldn’t they have recognised the variables, and organised a conservative budget based on the lower end of potential returns?

Then if it had come in ahead of predictions, it would be seen favourably or if it had come in close to the predicted level, they’d also be viewed favourably, because they got the calculations somewhere near right.

But they had to make it seem as rosy as possible, and then just hope that economic and financial trends that existed at the time didn’t trend downwards…. which some of them were bound to do.

They set themselves up for this situation!

Having far lower income than predicted is just hopeless!

Damn pity Abbott’s mob just doesn’t look one iota more capable!

Now would be an excellent time for a big reduction in immigration, as this is of core importance to the national financial situation.

It is absolutely time to STOP heaping ever-more pressure on our infrastructure, services, resources and environment, all of which demands an enormous amount of government expense, just to duplicate all this stuff for the increasing population without providing any gains for the existing population!

The budget black hole should equate directly to a big cut in immigration!!

In this post, maybe two? I intend to stager around the thread and bump in to all sides.
It is the only way I can address many side issues that have turned up.
First lets be honest *I and every non Liberal/conservative will have ample time, and reason, to complain about the actions of the incoming Government*.
But sadly, for those upset with me, for a wrongly perceived *betrayal* of this Labor government, those who refuse to understand *you cannot enter an election asking to be considered the best of two bad choices*.
Not if you sweep your troubles under a carpet, leaving the public to see what you refuse to.
The thread is not about a single tax rate,surely we know Palmer paying the same rate as his garbage man will not work?
It will never happen, quite simply we are looking at increasing not decreasing tax.A case,by Wiser men than s, hasbeen put both sides Howard and the ALP spent too much.
Have some here considered? it is Liberals, no other party, who will have the chance to change this tax.
And without insults from me.
A fundamental truth, ignore it at your peril, is we must pay for every service, company and PAYE, GST, all taxes.
We saw Abbott stop? it questions him, and those who will not see it,tax cuts for small business.
The open wound that Australian politics has become, sees some * totally unaware types*insult Labor for what is a Liberal consideration, Labor will be in ruins.
UNDERSTAND PLEASE! not my wish but a certainty, dreams do not think for uncommitted voters.
Thousands, maybe millions, gave us away long ago.
And in just a few days a subject, a well thought out and presented one, will be handed down, then good or bad murdered in this place and the media.
Looking back, post Labors wreckage History will tell Labor lost the election the day Kevin Rudd was sacked and a woman not liked by most took us on a ride in the tunnel of horror.

Much of the world has put in place a consumtion tax, call it VAT or GST but in the end names do not matter.
Lets see how it came to this country.
Paul Keiting put it forward.
It was screamed down by Labors boiler suited then 60% controllers.
Howard, while we fought him, for introducing *our near policy* put it in place.
Now why did Keiting, the then words best in his roll want it?
It is important that my detractors * from my side of the fence* understand it was so Labor could fund its agenda, rises in social security are paid for in cash not phantom money.
The small business tax cuts we still want,Abbott will not allow, need funding.
A GST can if guts exists, pay for future building infrastructure and health, it can see silly taxes hurting growth gone.
If we look in to the not too far future we must understand.
Liberals will and must, cut jobs and services, in time raise taxes GST is my view a way the money can be fairly raised.
*Some refuse to see, Higher GST in some3 cases by removing existing tax may see some prices drop.
Labor for life, fighting for social justice till dead!
But nothing in that description demands I refuse to see the truth.

Belly as usual your love of Labor mean you can't see anything straight.

It was Howard who first wanted a GST, & that gutless wonder Fraser wouldn't have a bar of it. Electoral suicide he reckoned.

Yes Keating wanted one, but was smacked down like a naughty boy, for even thinking such dangerous [to election prospects] thoughts.

Howard, the little man with a heap of guts, took it to an election & won. Labour have been attacking him for it ever since. Now, suddenly, after wasting tens of billions on god knows what, you want to put it up. Credibility is one thing Labor is really short on.

You say, "A case,by Wiser men than s, hasbeen put both sides Howard and the ALP spent too much." Yes I heard some lefty scribe on the left propaganda machine, your ABC, talking this garbage the other day. Interesting that Howard/ Costello paid of Labors huge debt from last time, gave everyone tax cuts, oversaw large wage rises for all, & put cash in the bank. But some lefty dismisses all that & expects to be believed, & surprisingly his name was not Gillard.

Then you suggest the prime architect of the whole fiasco, Rudd would have been better. Do see an optometrists, you need better vision mate.

Then you have the hide to say we need more money for services. Labor are spending 30% more, tens of billions, & we do not have even one more service. In fact we have lost quite a few.

We are a damn site less safe, with over a billion less each year spent on defence. Your lot have clawed back previously committed money from hospitals in a number of states, forcing hospital cut backs. What little defence force we still have is now a tug boat service for our invaders fleet.

If ever I want some predictions, I'll go to the Gypsy fortune teller, old mate. Both your history & predictions just don't hold water.

Palmer paying the same rate as his garbage man will not work?
Belly,
Why not ? The present system hasn't worked for several decades now so I think we should give flat tax a go. It WILL WORK ! It'll create many more jobs & will reduce the public service bureaucracy & that too is a very good thing.
Clive Palmer might just prove to be the man to get the ball rolling & judging by the poor goal keeping of all the other parties he might just kick a goal from which all of Australia will benefit.
Throw in national Service as well & presto, we''ll have a great country again.

Wrong hasbeen sorry old mate but your self confidence is badly miss placed.
This link may help you, and another who seem lost on this matter.
http://gst.nusystems.com.au/pdf/part1.pdf
It is a simple explanation from the very start of this tax.
Seems some, a few, do not understand my point, I will not protest if/when Abbott brings in a rise in GST.
It can be of real use in fixing a troubled tax system, and who of us does not know, Abbott will NEED to get more tax, to pay his policy,s.
And again who fails to see if by an imposable miraculous event, Dillard was re elected she too,would put them up to fund her promises.
Hasbeen I challenge, based only on your words, your understanding of much at all about the subject of Australian Politics!
Not one of the Liberals, Conservatives, and various Tea Party red necks has taken up my challenge.
To tell of the problems in their camp.
I have a long term track record, you and others lack the ability to see or understand, of putting the sword to my side.
Hasbeen your words are hollow and you can do better, maybe.

The reason why big retail shops don't go broke during bad times of business is that they REDUCE prices to stimulate sales.. An intelligent Government would REDUCE tax to stimulate the economy.

Indy do you think now with our deficit we should reduce tax.
Are you content that tax savings for property owners, negative gearing, let the little man business or worker carry the well off?
Are you prepared to fund your intended red neck academy, national service, because current situation calls for less spending not more.
As baby boomer's stop work, and we do as some ask cut migration/growth how do we pay pensions.
It will win me no friends, but I am staggered at those who travel my path Responsible Social justice/welfare, seem not to understand as well as accountability, that system dies unless funded.
In ignore/not wanting tax reforms, we say end help or cut it to those most in need.
And last Abbott has set his task,we will face brutal cuts, and higher taxes, show me another way?
A rise in GST should be to raise over all tax,s.
But by its very nature with simple changes it can rolla great number of other taxes up freeing up the economy.
Politicians from all sides and both state and federal are addicted to creating new taxes, lets simplify then.

do you think now with our deficit we should reduce tax.
Belly,
easiest thing in the world. Cut the public service pays by 10%, introduce flat tax & national service & turn the boats around. Problem solved within a year. Definitely NO INCREASING tax.
We need a stimulus ! The afore-mentioned is that stimulus. I wonder if Clive would agree with that ?

How good are you at figures individual?
If we cut every ones tax Pay As You Earn, to 20%how much will be lost to the government?
Public servants?
Following your plan we will not be able to fund a single public toilet, well maybe one.
I have enjoyed the thread, held in contempt by my side for speaking the truth.
And yours for very near the same.
After the election my side may understand, it has to happen!
Labor, as good as it some times has been, has already lost the election.
Abbott, as bad and seemingly lite headed as he is, will find more love than Gillard.
And every chance exists,his tax reform will be a bigger GST.
Now as I after the smash, remind your side we told you so, you will say I changed my view.
Not true, those lovers of Labor,most certainty less than I love them, will change nothing.
Labor has hung its very dirty linen out, with out washing it, and thinks voters will not see the truth.
Tax reform is just as Labors reform a must do.

One simple question Belly.How can the taking of money from the real productive economy via another tax add to the betterment of all Australians?

You are proposing tax austerity that kills real production.This means poverty for the very people you proport to respresent.

Well arjay you are quite hard to follow.
First you made that up, from my first post, hold on!
You said the economy is running along OK?
I have never hidden my though, only individual wants to cut taxes.
While rolling up some other taxes, this country MUST do that, to free up business for a start, my over all view is yes we pay more tax.
Both sides agreeing to put a levee on medicare highlights we can, without pain, use tax reforms, to redistribute who pays more, some would pay less.
Maybe you, small business subsidy is needed in times like now, we need to know our high dollar is harming manufacturing.
First, if we could put every tax paid in this country right now here listed any one of us could see some should be removed and redistributed to others to pay, for the economy,s good.

Given the governments forced back downs and shortage of money, this threads subject looks even more likely under Abbott.
Strange very much so, that Abbott and his crew are saying whatwe all know, cuts are coming.
That is not what I find strange.
With the election already won, believe me it is, Abbott tells us he will police welfare, no problem, but continue his plan for middle class welfare with his cash guzzling baby bonus?

Who would have thought?
From my first post in this thread till its end!
I said a chance existed it would rise, at the hands of an Abbott government.
It seems sure now.
Tax reform screams for attention, and I support action in GST.
It can be a very useful scheme in over all tax reform.