Beverley Broadbent, a Melbourne woman,
was a healthy 83 year old who
took her own life earlier this year. In an interview
she stated, "I'm not sad, I'm having a good life that
I'm enjoying right to the last minute." It seems that
she took her own life to "escape infirmity" in her old age.

Does anyone else have a problem with this scenario?

Do people have the right to die?

"Does anyone else have a problem with this scenario?"

Implies that you do, Lexi?

Without a suggestion that she was not of sound mind, memory and understanding I accept that the decision was her's to make as I would wish others to accept mine... should I find circumstances warranted such a choice for me.

I would hope that achieving such a last decision for her was able to be not unnecessarily violent.

For now, I am content to assume and forever exercise my right to not die.

Lexi, I expect the big question is “do we own ourselves.” What I mean by that is, are we an island?

In most cases we are not. We have usually procreated or at the least formed some interpersonal relationships. In my experience the ones we leave behind get a double whammy, one of loss and heartache and one of guilt. The question that never leaves us is “why did they do it,” even if like the sweetheart you exampled she had made her wishes clear that she feared infirmity, if she had family or close friends they will psychologically carry the burden that she had alleviated herself of.

I believe suicide in most cases is a selfish act, but in saying that, the type of pain that drives most to suicide is horribly singular, it can’t be shared with others or rationalized to oneself. I expect that there are some who are solitary and do “own themselves” because their passing would not be noted, but most leave someone to carry the guilt of “could I have done more.”

So my judgment is we all do have the right to be or not to be. But I believe most suicides have considered the ones they leave behind and consequently considered the lifelong pain it will bring to them….and they do it anyway. A selfish act of desperation from a distressed mind in many instances wants to bring the pain of loss to those around them….almost like the final winning argument and they do take some solace or satisfaction from that.

Dear WmT.,

Yes, I have to admit that I do have a problem
with her decision to take her own life simply
to avoid infirmity in her old age. Watching
her on television - she was vibrant, healthy,
and coherent. But I do question the mental
state of her mind - and wish that she would have
had counseling of some sort. It just seems like
such a waste.

A year ago we watched my mother-in-law, who was
on the tail-end of Alzheimer's, and in palliative-care
in a nursing home, struggle. Her mind was
substantially destroyed, she did not know where she
was or how long she had been there. She could not read,
watch television, walk alone, use a telephone or play
card games. She did not retain bladder or bowel
continence, she could not dress herself,, feed herself,
or transfer from bed to chair to bathroom.
Wanting to die would have been understandable in her case.
She was 92 years of age.

I don 't understand the case of this Melbourne woman though -
who appeared to have so much to live for.
She could have waited for a few mpre years surely.

I believe they do, Lexi.

>>Do people have the right to die?<<

To consider any alternative would be to suggest that our lives are not our own. That we somehow owe it to others to struggle on, whatever the cost to ourselves. This would seem to me a little perverse. After all, we are obliged to take responsibility for our actions in absolutely every other aspect of our lives - why should we be denied the right to take responsibility to end our lives, should we see fit to do so?

Because I am not a religious person, I don't buy the "God's greatest gift is your life" argument either. You would have to be a pretty cruel God to impose an ocean of pain on a person, simply to prove a point, would you not.

Changing the angle of approach for a moment - would I be prepared to help someone else along the way, if I was certain that it was their absolute wish? I hope that I would. Just as I hope that those who know me well enough would do the same for me, knowing that they do so with my profoundest thanks.

Dear SOG,

Thank You for making me see another side to this
issue. I agree with you - it was a selfish act.
But, one that she probably was entitled to make.
I still can't help but feel that she should have
sought counseling before making her final decision.
But then I consider life a gift - to be lived
to the utmost. Obviously - not everyone feels the same way.

'Does anyone else have a problem with this scenario? '

Lexi

I personally don't have an issue with that scenario. You can't stop someone taking their own life if they are determined enough. You can stop the Government from opening the floodgates for euthenasia. Those who favour it usually use the same dishonest tactics that abortionist used when saying that it was about the poor young girl who had been raped and was being forced to carry an unwanted child. The feminist at the time knew this was a lie and wanted to be able to dispose of unwanted babies at any time as seen now every day.

Dear Pericles,

I'm not questioning her right to die.
I'm questioning the timing. Unlike my
mother-in-law - this lady still had a
lot of living to do. And her choice to
take her own life while she wasn't in any
pain, she wasn't ill, to me does not make
sense. It seems that she took this drastic
step simply to avoid what the future may have held -
old age.

I wouldn't have questioned her decision a few
years ago. But having experienced someone
dying - changed my outlook a great deal.

Today is a sad day Lexi, a friends mate is buried today, the second suicide death close to me in recent times.
I understand it is different than what you talk about.
While seeing the waste in my tale I agree with your subject, we should have the right to die.
Let there be no mistake, I speak of the truely ill or great suffering nothing else.

Dear runner,

Thanks for that.

Modern technology is problematic because it has become
such an important factor in social change.

For example, the birth-control bill was introduced as
a convenient technology for family planning. It soon had
the effect, however, of stimulating a "sexual revolution,"
in which permissiveness became more socially acceptable
than before. Many single women became sexually active
without using the pill, with the result that greater numbers
of unwanted children were conceived than before. One
result of this trend was a sharp increase in the numbers
of abortions and the number of single mothers.

Then a new technological fix was in the offing: a
pill that would induce an early miscarriage - and which would
be as easy to take after conception as the birth-control
pill was before the act. Therefore an old problem lead
to new technology, which in turn lead to a new problem,
which in turn has generated a new technological fix, which
still leaves other complications unaddressed.

Dear Belly,

My heart goes out to you dear friend.

We also attended a family friend's funeral today.
She died of cancer and had spent the last
days in a hospice close to the city. She
was in her early 70s and unrecognisable -
from the cancer. Yet she would have given anything
to live. It was not her choice to make.

The right to die needs qualifying. We all get to die so it’s about timing, dignity, choice and peace.

The medieval religious doctrines encourage us to suffer with good cheer in order to reach heaven, rather than going into purgatory until our relatives can afford enough indulgences to get us transferred.

I wish for choice in the event I face a lingering and painful death. Not just because I personally don’t wish to go that way, but because I love my family and I see no good reason to leave them, particularly my kids and grandkids, with a an enduring vision of me that is so different to the real me they knew.

I don’t think it is at all selfish to remove such trauma from the ones we love. I hope I’m able to plan my exit when the time comes.

Woops! There goes that big Mac Truck.

Dear spindoc,

I agree with you.

When my time comes as it inevitably will,
I also would not want to be kept alove long
beyond the point at which I would normally
have died. I don't want to be hooked up for
days, months, or even years to machines that
would sustain my life and I certainly wouldn't
want this step to be taken in I am in constant
pain or even if I am permanently comatose.

I don't want technologies that were intended to
save people from unnecessary death to actually
have the effect of depriving me of a dignified
death.

Lexi my sweet, there are conditions as bad as respiration, which are entirely as synthetic & horrible.

It is our do-gooders who force people to take action while they still can, as we are not allowed to help them when they can’t do it for themselves.

My mother was 99 when she died. She had endured 6 months of lying in a bed in a nursing home, totally incontinent, unable to feed herself, & barely able to get herself a drink, if the bed table was not in just the right place. She wanted to die, but was not allowed help to do it.

She could only get out of bed when lifted by something very similar to the engine crane I use to get engines out of cars. It was of course painted white, to look like a medical appliance, rather than the engineering thing it was.

I could not even take her for a drive, as I could not get her from a wheel chair to a car.

For those 6 months I kicked myself every day for not helping her do what she wanted, before I had lost control, & the opportunity to help her.

I can totally understand that lady, who had probably seen results like my mother. She should have had access to assisted suicide later when she needed it.

Having seen what can happen when we leave it too late, I have a large drop-off off the road picked out, which I will definitely drive over, at high speed, before I lose control of my destiny the way my mother did, & I will be singing with joy as I do it, at a great life finished cleanly

Dear Hasbeen,

I'm so sorry to hear of your mother's suffering.
And I feel for you and your family. It must
have been a very trying and emotional time
for you all.

I experienced something
similar with my mother-in-law - however, she
was made as comfortable as possible during the
tail end of her life and the doctor certainly
did not prolong her life with artificial means.

I hope that you will die quietly in your sleep
when your turn comes. That it will be peaceful
and dignified with no stress.

I would like to die in my sleep. But of course
who knows what's around the corner for either
of us.

I used to think that an assisted death such as
that prescribed by Dr Philip Nietsche (hope I
spelled his name correctly) whom Kevin Andrews MP
opposed so vehemently was the way to go.
However one of our
regular posters - David F. posted sometime ago
how that particular doctor scared the heck out
of David, when David went to hear the doctor speak
in Brisbane. I guess it bears more investigation
into something we know so little about.
We have to be careful when making these sort of
decisions.

Such a question. Nothing makes my blood boil more than the idea that we must prolong a life at all costs. beyond where it IS life. But should we have the right to choose to die just because? A difficult question and I agree with some of Lexi's opinion. It could be quite traumatic to those left behind, but that perhaps reflects an unusual fascination with life that I suspect some more primitive societies may not have shared.

But I always wonder at how easily we as a society send young men to die on foreign fields yet fight tooth and nail to prevent the old and sick from leaving at a time and in a manner of their own choosing. Now THAT is selfishness...

Yes Lexi my dear I can most definitely see the danger you suggest. It would be nice to think all family were loved ones in all families, but the horror stories say differently.

It would be great to live in a black & white world in so many ways.

Graeme it would not have been too traumatic for any of us, but making the decision is very difficult. The when is the most problematic. My mother was semi-independent, living in her granny flat, with some outside help, but meals, cleaning, medication & transport organised by us, until after her 98Th birthday. It was only after a supposedly minor hospitalization that she was in trouble. It was so quick & she was in the nursing home.

Yes it is a strange society that sends some to their death, & refuses to let others go when they've had enough.

Lexi,, I would suggest that the woman who committed suicide was most certainly mentally ill, so in actual fact she was in pain of some sort, surely?

All those who state they want to choose the time and place of their deaths are not likely to get that choice. The will to live is very strong, so most hold out until it is physically too late to suicide.

They then want to rely on 'someone' euthanasing them.
Well it isn't as easy to 'put someone down' as you might think, so finding that someone isn't easy.

We all should have a right to die when we are ready, but the sad reality is that this rarely happens.

Dear Graeme M.,

My apologies for not responding sooner. However
I'd used up my quota of posts so I was unable to
do so.

Medical dilemmas frequently become moral (and legal)
ones. In the past births and deaths happened when
they happened, often without medical intervention.
If a baby was too premature or defective, or if a
seriously ill person was dying, there was little
the family could do about it other than to offer
comfort.

Today, most people are born and die in hospitals under
the supervision of medical personnel who sometimes
decide to keep them alive long beyond the point at
which they would normally have died.

I guess this comes from the fact that physicians are
expected to do all they can to sustain life.

It is difficult to understand when the preservation of
someone's life helps no one, and is desired neither
by the patient, nor those who love them most dearly,
why doctors cannot let the patient die in peace and dignity.

Perhaps in the future - the laws will change - providing
enough safeguards are added. But as others have pointed out
it is never an easy decision to make.

It is sad that the professional soldier not only runs
the risk of getting killed, but has to kill whomever the
politicians choose to call enemies while at the same time
not allowing citizens the right to die if they so choose.

But that's politics. Pressure needs to be applied for changes
to occur. And it has to be a collective decision.

Dear Hasbeen,

I agree it is never easy to let others go.

Dear Suse,

I also wonder about that woman's mental state.
I wish she'd had couseling.
I seem to remember that you're a nurse.
You must have witnessed death many times and would
know how difficult it is to let someone go.

Everyone has a right to die. Those against it can always take on the financial outlay & the physical care if they believe someone has to live on because someone else says so.
If I become a burden to my family I'll rather top myself than wreck their lives. I'm just not that selfish & I hope I'm assessing myself correctly. I don't want to be lying in a bed Just to be kept alive for years. I wouldn't want it & even less like it.

how difficult it is to let someone go.
Lexi,
It's my guess that your sentiments & emotions would change instantly if you were made to put your money where your words are. It wouldn't take long at all once your savings are gone yet you still have to fork out to keep a person alive in misery because you don't want them to die. You'd soon see their death as a double blessing.

Yes Lexi, I am a nurse, and I currently work as a community nurse with aged care and palliative care clients, among others.

It is rarely the medical personnel who are 'preventing' very aged or terminally ill people from dying sooner, or when the patient wants to die.

More often it is the medical staff who are trying to talk the relatives or friends/next of kin into stopping active treatment (fluids, medications, antibiotics) for their gravely ill patient.

We try to advocate for the patient when the emotional attachment of their loved ones clouds their view of the current situation.
However, until it is legal to do so, euthanasia remains out of bounds for us

Suicide is not illegal, but unfortunately there are many near suicide attempts that leave the patients in an even worse position than they were before.

You would have to be very certain of what works, and what doesn't...

You're right, Suesonline… Though the circumstances weren't funny the look on the consulting neurologist's face in the emergency room was when I, as next of kin, continued to refuse an MRI whilst 17 staples were put into my father's scalp after his bad (and last) fall.

I did understand the situation but it was as if he'd never before encountered a family member who didn't demand every extreme intervention available in a modern city hospital – and with the equivalent of a Dr House on permanent standby.

Dad's artificial heart valve/warfarin situation was explained along with his pre-dementia instructions and wishes (though I was not only NOK but also had his signed POA)… But he only seemed to be mollified after I handed him my mobile phone to talk to my A&E Supervising Nurse eldest sister followed by my sister-in-law – the Specialist GP.

After a short return to the family home and our care, one week in hospital before three in a brilliant palliative care facility his death was dignified even if the preceding two years of dementia were anything but.

I know as certainly as I can know anything that if the deeply religious, dignified man I knew as my father could have foreseen the rapidity and degree of decline of his cognizance – he would have topped himself to avoid what he would have regarded as the shame of it.

Most people want the peace of mind the choice and ability to effect death when it suits them would bring.

Most people, would not actively do so.

(My siblings and I are now very certain of what works, and what doesn't…!)

Just to cut through some of the fog, it would be eminently desirable if those who suffer from a terminal illness and don't want their life extended through intervention, could explain that to the medical staff when admitted where they are able to do so. As well, what about some paperwork pre-prepared to cover those circumstances?

Treating medical staff cannot read minds and they risk all sorts of very nasty legal repercussions where they are perceived (always wrongly) to be doing anything outside of courageous lifesaving, using every bit of expertise and technological advance available to them.

Onthebeach, I don't see much criticism of medical staff here.

I think the criticism is directed at the laws that prevent us, & I'm sure many medical staff, from doing what the patient so often wants

Thanks to everyone who has contributed thus far.
Especially you Suse - who's had such vast experience
in this field. I guess we'll all have to deal with
the situation of death sooner or later. Let us trust
that when we do - circumstances will be such that
we shall make the right decisions for ourselves and
for our loved ones. I think that until we're
actually forced into making decisions we can't really
know how we shall deal with them. As I've found out from
experience. It's one thing to say one thing - but it's
a totally different situation - when one is forced to
have to make a decision . Not easy.

Hasbeen, "Onthebeach, I don't see much criticism of medical staff here"

Sorry, I wasn't intending to imply that there was. Just stating bluntly what we should all realise, but probably have not thought about. It is very necessary in the moment before the team takes over in Emergency to tell them, "Hey, I know I have a terminal condition. Please help my suffering with pain control but don't resuscitate, or intervene to maintain life".

Where that very short opportunity is lost, you are unlikely to be heard later. Too much is going on and there are drugs. Practically speaking you lost your individual moment of choosing because every effort will be taken to save and extend life.

Dear onthebeach,

An excellent suggestion.

We were lucky in that we had a very good doctor
for my mother-in-law - who asked us before placing
our mother into palliative care as to what our
wishes were. The staff were then instructed
accordingly.

Lexi

Thanks.

It is not a complete solution. But it will help some.

Get your decision and will known before the inevitable descent to where others must be involved because you are not able.

Just a little apart from that, I am wondering where people who cannot afford professional advice can go for examples of advance directives. It would be empowering if such information in the form of actual examples and explanations could be available. More than the general bureaucratic lawyer speak that requires them to pay for advice anyhow.

cont'd ...

It is a very difficult time when family members have
to deal with the agony of a loved one's suffering
and one wonders why this problem has been created.

We all know that physicians are expected to do all they can
to sustain life, but perhaps it is time that the Medical
Profession should take another look at the circumstances
that would require a bit more flexibility in their
stance on this issue.
If the preservation of life helps no one, and is desired
neither by the patient nor by those who love the patient most
dearly, why could the doctors not be content of let the
patient die in peace and dignity? Why pursue a vigorous
therapy that would benefit no one - except their own
satisfaction in thwarting death regardless of the
consequences.

These and many other questions can only be answered by the
medical profession. With our aging population pressure
must be applied for these issues to no longer be swept
under the rug.

Dear onthebeach,

Most reputable nursing homes have information
available on what the options are for a
terminally ill person. They have leaflets and
pamphlets, and contact details available.
We received our information from Blue Cross -
which I'm sure will happily mail any information
to anyone who asked for it. Also getting in touch
with your local MP might also be worthwhile.

The two websites might be of some interest:

http://www.ethicalrights.com/submissions/human-rights/83-the-right-to-die-with-dignity-euthanasia.html

http://www.exitinternational.net/page/Australia

My 80 year old mother was considering what to write in her advanced directive papers.

I suggested she have the usual 'do not resuscitate' if she has a life-limiting disease or event such as a major stroke or brain hemorrhage/injury.

But also that if she is unable to speak for herself, that she is not placed on artificial life support or be given life prolonging medications such as antibiotics, should she develop pneumonia or other infection.

Because my brothers aren't keen on 'allowing' people to die without trying absolutely everything first (especially their relative!), Mum decided to go for a one off visit to a lawyer that specialises in advanced life directives.

She ended up with an iron- clad directive that spells out her wishes in a lawful way.
Hospital staff and relatives have to follow her written wishes under the law.
She is happy now!

Dear Suse,

Thanks for that.

I shall now take the same step with my mother -
(she's 91). We've got an excellent lawyer -
and he'll be able to take care of this matter for us.

Again, Thank You.

It looks like this thread has now run its
course. I would like to Thank everyone who
contributed to this discussion.

See you all on another thread.

Suseonline,

That is the sort of real life experience that needs to be shared. I am surprised there isn't more of it but perhaps I do not visit the right forums. People need to share concerns and wisdom.

Some of my relatives have experienced rapid declines where all were in shock trying to work out what to do. Others have been unfortunate enough to linger for a long time. The final year and more can be horrendous for the person concerned. Many nurses I know have seen a lot of that.

I haven't see many kind deaths. Going in one's sleep must be less usual, more Hollywood. Speaking for myself, I would hate to be trapped in a body that cannot work and not being to communicate as well is a horrifying prospect. So I guess I need to consider stroke and similar problems up front.

I was hoping that people like David F., and
Loudmouth(Joe) would add their experiences to
this discussion. David F., heard Dr Philip
Nitschke, of the pro-euthanasia group speak,
and I believe that Loudmouth (Joe) had personal
experiences with death.

It is only through sharing these experiences that
our knowledge on the subject broadens and we learn.

Responses marked and found wanting? LOL

Dear onthebeach,

No. responses are never found wanting.
Including yours.
You're most welcome. -

We're hungry
for our wise women and our wise men.
They who have lived these years,
having seen what they have seen and
cried the tears of troubled times, we
acknowledge that they've climbed the
ladder of the elder ones. We're blessed
by their presence and we are grateful to know
them.

Dear Lexi,

My apologies for dipping in when you were looking to close the door but I thought I might offer the following observations.

My mother worked for many years in aged care before retiring. She was the night sister in charge of a very large government run facility in a major town near us.

Dealing with death and dying (often wondered why these aren't the other way around, perhaps the phonetics dictate a trailing off of sorts) were obviously a huge part of the job description. As a single mother raising five kids she could not afford a car at the time so my brother and I took it in turns to walk her the several kilometres to work each night. Conversations about who had passed away the night before were common. It was her experience that as a rule those who lived full rich lives were usually those whose passing was the most dignified. Those who had lead pinched, grasping, ungracious lives often went cursing and railing at the world and its creator.

I do not know anything about the Melbourne women of whom you speak but I get the sense that rather than having a mental illness as has been floated here, she has a presence of mind that has come from a 'well examined life'.

Yet my mother was always in awe of how tenaciously people did cling to life, often through enormously distressing circumstances. We know how much value the majority of the human race places on the gift of existence and we rightly judge societies by how they respect the lives of their citizens.

So why do we have this sense that all is not right with the way we are dealing with the process of death and dying in our Western country? The sense of dissatisfaction is strikingly evident in the posts here.

Cont..

Cont..

Having lived in and been familiar with the customs of South East Asian it is notable that the thought of sending our old and infirmed into nursing homes is alien and more than a little disturbing to many Asian people I have known. The commitment to caring for their elderly relatives within their homes is far stronger in their culture.

I'm not sure I'm trying to make the case that we are neglectful or unempathetic. We have a far greater focus on individual choice and responsibility for our own care that if the price of that 'freedom' is spending our final years separated from our families in a nursing home most of us will probably take it.

Yet Susieonline will probably attest to the fact that some of the families who are the most vocal about the treatment their elderly relative is receiving can be among who are the least prepared to find the time to visit on a regular basis. Perhaps their stridency comes from a sense of guilt.

My sister-in-law, who works in the same facility as my mother did, recently spoke of a Muslim lady with dementia who was admitted a year ago. Every morning a member of her family is there to feed her breakfast, another is there to feed her lunch, and yet another takes the evening meal.

Perhaps our society is one that has a greater need for the facility of sanctioned euthanasia than others. Over stretched and underpaid staff can not ever give the care afforded by close, committed and attentive family. If we are to continue to fill our lives with work, travel and independence then caring adequately for our elderly relations will always be problematic. If we can not grant them the dignity of all embracing family care then the dignity of choosing the time and manner of their deaths may well be a just response.

Dear csteele,

Thank you for taking the time to post on this thread
and Thank You for sharing your
and your family's experiences with us. You've put a
lump in my throat - and I can fully relate to what
you're saying. My father's biggest fear was to be
placed in a nursing home in his old age. He died of
a massive coronary at the age of 52. However my step-father
who suffered a series of strokes - and finally had to be
placed in a nursing home because mum was too frail to
continue looking after him (she'd done so for 10 years).
He never accepted his life in the nursing home - even
though mum visited him every single day until his death.

Each case is different - and each family's situation is
different. I know from experience just how difficult it
can be with elderly family members. However, one does the
best one can. Putting a family member into a nursing
home is a very difficult decision for any one to make.
Regular visits, are so important - and regular
contact with family members are vital. Loved ones
must be re-assured
that they are loved, and regular family contact is so
important to their lives. They should never feel that they
have been dumped and forgotten. Also, keeping in touch -
with the outside world - makes them feel like a part of it -
and gives them a reason for living. At least in my opinion.