http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-28/green-is-the-alp-really-too-big-to-fail/4598780
Well I may get dumped by my party and my Union I am so proud of.
If so it will be in defense of both I fall.
The link is not my words but a truth can not be ignored.
Party members are hostile! worried, afraid, and bitter.
About the NSW defeat, the then not fully known CRIMINAL BETRAYAL of every party member by the FACTIONS there.
This morning, face to face with party activists I heard, did not contribute to, every word I ever posted here, my partys heart is broken.
And it is not just me, knowing our next leader will be one rewarded for- breaking our hearts.
Too that he and his ilk will not let us have true reforms.
Gloat if you must,but my words are for the love of my party and a scream that never before has this country needed a second force in politics

< The consensus among the good and deeply invested minds who have written on the future of the party - Messrs Bracks, Carr, Faulkner, Latham and others - is that the ALP is in need of reimagining and restructuring; a broadening of its base; a forging of new points of community contact and involvement. >

There you have it Belly.

This stuff is of great concern to you. The wider picture of what we need to do in politics in the interest of our country’s future is of great concern to me. Marry the two together and there’s your answer –

Labor should reimage itself and become Australia’s SUSTAINABILITY party.

You have never really supported this. But what else could they possibly do?

Dear Belly,

Perhaps it is not sensible to love a political party. They change with the times and with those who control them. You love the Labor Party because of what it once stood for. The unpleasant fact is that it doesn't stand for it any more. It is the creature of people like Eddie Obeid and Graham Richardson. The Labor Party you love is a memory. It does not exist. Keating said you can't raise a souffle twice.

Dear Ludwig,

Sustainability is a great idea. It is the key to a viable future. Unfortunately there are not enough people who are aware of its importance to build a party around. The following will help to create awareness.

Public Forum
Dialogue on a Crowded Planet:
Population Policy and Dwindling Resources

Saturday 13 April 2013 - 11:00 am to 4:30 pm
Abel Smith Theatre, University of Queensland
(Blg 23, St Lucia Campus - located at the end of Campbell Rd.)

Speakers:
Murray Lane Population carrying capacity - past and present
Michael Lardelli Australia's fuel and food insecurity and the ongoing propaganda war over Peak Oil
Simon Michaux Peak mining and the implications of current corporate culture management of natural resources
Ian Lowe Population and Public Policy

Entry $5 - morning and afternoon tea provided
(Lunch available from campus outlets)

RSPV qld@population.org.au

If I go I will wear a name tag labeled David F. If either of you go I hope to meet you.

Dear Belly,

I find myself agreeing with David F.

There are declining levels of trust in most
aspects of our entire political system -
including the media and its role in reporting
on it.

As has been stated in the past - Labor needs to
become more open, transparent and democratic.
They know this. "A Committee of Wise Men, one of
which was Bob Carr told it so back in 2010."
But internal reform has stalled. Which is
unfortunate. Whether they are capable of change
remains to be seen. It's impossible to predict with
any confidence how either major party will respond
to changing circumstances. The modern fact of political
life is a result of new technology which allows
political arties to see what policy responses will
produce an electoral advantage in key marginal electorates.

The media as has been pointed out previously plays a
vital part in all of this - they shape the view which
are expressed in news polls. As David has pointed out -
founding principles and philosophies have disappeared as
significant forces in policy formation.

Belly,
The ALP doesn't give a danm about my future but I do care about theirs., which is hopefully none.

Ludwig/Lexi/David f, it was those who formed the ALP, under that well known tree.
Poisoned, by some one unable to share that love, but those first Unionists and Labor members loved and respected my party.
In return I love and respect the work they undertook and the memory's they left.
They added great honor to the word solidarity, it no longer takes its name from men and women with guts standing together.
It now is a sheet, thrown over wrongs, to hide the truth , from not only Australia, but the very membership of both party and union members.
Australia needs strong honest opposition, that, for some time, is Labors future.
But can Labor survive?
Is it better that I scuttle away under the heap of rubbish currently hurting my party? pretend it is not so?
Did we read the whole link? can we all see to get a seat in Labors team you need to be, not 100% but mostly, a union official or office workers for a current member.
General public will not know, but time after time, Sussex Street, *party head quarters*
Picks its own candidate, over the wishes of branches.
Hide Ostrich like if you like, or join the uninformed comment, but this is true.
Rudd was dumped, not for his anger, he went in the self interests of the very UNION/FACTION blaming him and his faction for the sins they unquestionably own!
Dividing the party.
The right, formed to take Labor into the future, as a party of reform that had policy,s the other side and undecided could vote for.
Now is the reason we go it to opposition maybe for decades.
Had the HSU been a public company, had its victims, [ in strangest way] been what they are, victims, ACTU and Labor would demand action.
The ACTU has, it backed the continuation of that now filthy Union, stood against a group!WANTING TO DISMANTLE IT!

I need to say the ALP has some great and good folk in the house it too has put great policy,s in place.
Mixed with the dead hand of Gillard, how dare her supporters tell us she is one strong lady?
When did strength over take intelligence as a required measure.
Crean, after a recent total change from her slug like follower, is setting him self up, may even get my support, as leader post train wreck.
What future for the party on 15/9/13?
Can it be the begged for reform dies with our party, Shorten is a product of the current system, will be be able to cut the legs from under the suits lined ten deep to feed on both movements?
Who wants a party that gifts 50 in every hundred votes to unions.
Tell me why 22% of us are union members but 50% control my party.

Belly you can't rebuild the current labor party, it is too slimy to work with. Like all slime, it runs off the shovel back into the pit, when you try to dig it out.

For gods sakes man, go get that man Turnbull you love so much, grab whatever is worthwhile from Labour, & start a new party. If Turnbull is not up for it, at least you have learnt he is a useless self serving slob, as many of us have believed for years.

Luddy now you do have me worried mate. Carr is bad enough, but Faulkner & Latham to rebuild anything. The Hindmarsh island man, who wanted lies sealed in an envelope to be accepted as evidence in court. God help us mate. And Latham, a destroyer definitely no builder.

Then you use that word again, sustainability, a totally meaningless word suitable only for the chattering classes to throw around around dinner parties, or a university hall.

You have your idea of what it means, I'm sure mine is somewhat different, I'll bet they are both different to david f's, & bear little resemblance to the meaning some who will attend his public forum would apply.

That some would apply the word to that total stuffup, the Murry Darling Basin Plan, proves the fairies have escaped again, & need to be rounded up, to be returned to the institution.

Hi there BELLY old Chap...

Ordinarily, if I were to witness a Labour stalwart so thoroughly disillusioned with his Party, I'd probably snigger away to myself quietly with a sense of '...I told you so...'.

Yet with you BELLY, somehow I can't ? You've always impressed me as a very sincere individual, a resolute aficionado of the Labour cause. Regularly proclaiming all those qualities, virtues and objectives your Party has cherished since time in memorial.

Champion of the worker, prepared always to stand up against those oppressive, ruling class tyrants, who are the bosses ! With that famous Labour tenet as their enduring dictum - '...a fair days work for a fair days pay...'.

If you can draw any comfort from what's happening to your own Party, just take a quick look at the Liberals ? Who's actually running the show over there ? Tony Abbott or Malcolm Turnbull ?

There's no doubt, there are those in federal Labour, who should be thrown so far out of the Party, they'll never be heard from again. Including your alienating PM and her schismatic Deputy. Start with those two, and you'll be on the way to cleaning up the mess that's paralysing the Labour Party at the moment.

And just a personal thought BELLY. You could do worse than electing Simon Crean into the position of PM. What are your thoughts on that suggestion ?

Hi Belly, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You have every right to be both proud of your union affiliations and bitterly disappointed at the current betrayal of your feelings.

Believe it or not I was once an official for a UK union for engineers and yes, I did have cause during negotiations to twice act to withdraw labor. In those days the union officials were very much part of the workforce they represented. We worked along side each other, we knew each other, we shared mutual trust, openness and most of all loyalty.

Management had a great deal of respect for the membership and representatives because above all else we worked together as a team to get things done to the satisfaction of all parties, for us and not them.

I remain a firm believer that these conditions must exist if negotiations are to be conducted in good faith, openness and honesty.

My employer was very supportive and enrolled me in diploma courses such as Industrial Psychology, Interpersonal Communications, Negotiating Skills, Decision Making and Leadership.

Our trade union came to the party and offered me and many like me, a place in their negotiation skills training titled “Power Negotiations”. To my great alarm the courseware was titled “Soviet Negotiation- Niet”, (Russian for NO).

Of all the techniques and principles available to union negotiators at that time, the only thing the new elite union leadership was interested in was a very narrow and confrontational negotiation style.

These new union officials of the “leadership elite class” who had never worked in any industry let alone ours circulated the membership about the negatives of having professional management types close to the membership such as me. They poisoned the well and I eventually declined to stand as an elected representative.

I mention this because I think you will already have seen these processes take place over several decades within your own union membership.

Cont’d

Cont’d

This was 40 years ago and this process has continued inexorably for decades. The net result is that the unions to which we once belonged and the ALP you once loved no longer exist, they are changed forever. The only thing that has remained true, are the trust, openness and most of all loyalty within the membership. These values no longer exist anywhere else.

This is particularly sad because it is the union membership that created the unions and subsequently their political arm, the ALP. It is also sad because the new breed of union officials have used and abused the values and collective strengths of the union membership for personal/political gain rather than serving the interests of that membership. They have made the membership the means for their personal progress and the membership has become the victims.

I don’t wish to get into the usual ideological differences with you. I say these things because I have experienced the grinding change of ownership of the movement I think we both admire. I say this because I don’t want you to feel you have to defend that in which you believe. I am definitely not trying to provoke you into a response. What I am trying to do is demonstrate that I am expressing the values of the trade union movement we both once knew, shared and valued.

I get the feeling sometimes that you hold yourself and many like you, responsible in some small way for what has happened to the trade unions you rightly value so highly.

I am fully aware that by being open and honest with you, I am exposing myself to ridicule and accusations of insincerity, but you will know what I’m saying is from the heart and a deep understanding of the membership. The greatest compliment you could pay me, in spite of all the dialogue we have previously had, is to accept the respect and understanding I offer you in this post and to say nothing in response.

Regards,

Spindoc.

P.S, o sung wu, nicely put, my unequivocal sentiments. Thanks.

spindoc,

It's a shame you feel that you are exposing yourself to ridicule and accusations of insincerity....

That's the best post I've read from you, because it comes from the heart - and I think articulates well a frustration with changes in Labor and the labour movement.

In Connecticut I once tried to start an engineer's union. The people on the floor on the assembly line were organised, but we were not. We were called professionals which meant we did not get paid for overtime, had no representative for grievances and many other things that the people on the floor had. Each of us was alone against management. I invited a number of engineers to my house and talked to them about union. Some recoiled and said that they were professionals. I don't know why they came to the meeting in the first place. Others assured me that if I got a union going they would join. Since I could not get a union going by myself that was that.

Dear spindoc,

A great post from you and
Thank you for your openess and honesty.
You've summed things up so beautifully.

Poirot,

It’s interesting to discover that when we expose ourselves through heartfelt expressions of who we really are, we feel vulnerable. I very much appreciate your reciprocal comments as confirmation that each of us has a “flip side” to our publicly presented coin.

It is always good to find common ground in each other and even better when we step outside our “confrontational” selves to present our real selves.

We might never agree on some issues but it just goes to show that when we do let down our guards that protect us from what we present to others, we are just sincere people trying to establish some common ground.

It is all the more powerful from advocates such as you and I, of intense defense of ideological positions rather than negotiation. As we always face in negotiations, the essence is about finding common ground and connecting, rather than rejecting contrary perspectives for limited reasons, mea culpa.

Why can’t we hang up the rhetoric more often and establish that common ground? Can you suggest, at least in this case for Belly’s interests, how we might find some common ground to make him feel a little better?

Thank you, your comments have made me feel even more vulnerable and I think that has been enormously valuable and positive

Thanks,

spindoc.

Belly, thing may be a whole lot different today, had Gillard accepted defeat at the 2010 election.

Which eve way you look at it, her popularity was shot, when she took the party from some 85 seats, to just over 70, a flogging in anyone's eyes.

Now had she gone then, chances are Abbott and co would be fighting to save their political skin, just like Gillard is now.

Now, having had another three years as an incompetent pair, they have sealed labor's fait for years to come and it would take a monumental stuff up, or many of, for the libs to loose power.

I told you back in 2010, post election, that given enough rope, she would hang herself, and I was right.

It's just a pity this pair had another three years of waste and miss-management, as it's made Abbotts jobs just that much harder.

But in a strange, but hurtful way, it was worth it.

Belly,
I'm not trying to rub anything in but you are supporting something that hasn't existed since Whitlam because it was he who dismantled what was the workers' party & turned it into a useless academic yuppie club.

David f, thankyou. I had earmarked that event. Hope to see you there.

As you say, sustainability is a great idea. It is the key to a viable future. But there are not enough people who are aware of its importance.

Which is absolutely staggering in this day age, especially given how simple the concept really is.

But if Labor were to put Carr up as their leader, that would change. The message would get out there and be heard by the masses. And I dare say that the vast majority would like what they hear a whole lot more than what they hear from Abbott’s rabble!

Sustainability, so what do you guys consider as a sustainable Australia.

Surely, given you're so passionate about the subject, you must have a idea of what is sustainable.

Hi there SPINDOC...

I can only echo much of what several others have said herein about you. It would be very nice if we all could shed our public persona and speak without fear or favour. Unfortunately the world in which we live won't permit such candour and sincerity, thus we need to conceal much of our emotions and feelings for fear of ridicule and being taken advantage of.

Yes, we humans are a curious lot really with all our pretence, posturing, and deception. Funny thing, there are some amongst us who can actually see us for who and what we are. Despite all the masquerading we go on with ! Still I suppose that's what makes life doubly interesting, I guess.

Your belief that as a consequence of 'showing your hand' so to speak, you've rendered yourself open to all manner of derision and mockery may be unsubstantiated, and even if it does occur, so what ? Those who choose to attack others for speaking the truth, exposing a belief, they're nothing but banal and vapid stereotypes. So it's not worth expending the energy thinking about them.

You're to be admired SPINDOC, not mocked !

the alp is heading the same way as the liberal party (ie down the drain). Western society that was once founded on honesty and truth taken from Scripture is now becoming more and more corruptible. The complete failure at life at the personal level as shown by many pollies on all sides of politics is now working out in public life. Lies about climate, jobs for the girls, covering gross acts by trade unionist, running up huge debt while promising to be fiscal conservatives are all just symptons of fallen corrupt people in power. I am not sure if the Liberal party is that far behind in that regard. The Nationals had no problem endorsing someone to run against winsdor who was tied up with the NSW labour grubs. as we give people power who can't keep a marriage vowel, who think they are a law to themselves, push lies such as man made gw, steal money from those working hard, promote perverted lifestlyes through the national broadcasters, promote schools with godless values you can be sure that western governments are heading the same way as the Roman empire.
Who knows, people may come to repentance for their self deception, self indulgence and godless ways but it would take a huge awakening. People will be dumb enough to ask why are teens suiciding at record levels, why the sexual perversion, why the violence, why the breakdown of society. Nothing could be more obvious.

spindoc,

I've really been at a loss for words this evening. It's so rare on forums for us to lower our defences. We forge our alliances and berate our opponents, usually to gain a modicum of kudos from both.

I'm interested in the fact that you felt so vulnerable - and yet, what you received was support, not derision.

I do think it's often difficult for us to render ourselves vulnerable, whichever way the condition presents itself. For the record, I don't believe that talking candidly and kindly is letting your guard down. On the contrary, when directed at people with whom one usually finds themselves at loggerheads, it takes strength of character to divest oneself of antagonism and replace it with caring courtesy.

Rare to see around here - so well done!

I don't know how to placate Belly's heartbreak.

I suspect that the ALP in its present form may have gone by its use-by date. I'm incline to think that operating within the modern paradigm has made it lose its way. The labour movement is always at its zenith when its cause is great.

Strangely enough, it often takes a substantial operative degeneration to provide for the evolution of a vigorous hybrid - one which is pertinent to its moment in history.

Nothing could be more obvious.
runner,
That's about the gist of it all. In my LG organisation we have a top-heavy Labor management system which is breaking our organisation yet still they refuse to acknowledge their failure. All we on the ground can do is to watch our little show fall over in slow motion with every little detail plainly visible. Yet it is not Labor's fault in their eyes. We are Labor heavy & we have no future. We're probably very similar to the whole country.

Belly, this country owes a great debt to The Australian Labor Party, I say that with sincerity. Without the ALP and its industrial arm the trade union movement many of the benefits that we take for granted today would never have been realised. The ALP has provided leadership when called upon in times of war and peace. Great statesmen have lead the party, and consequently the country. In the past it has been Labor that gave a voice to the voiceless, and it was the Labor Party that showed the necessary compassion to help all Australians, many that the conservatives simply cast aside as economically nonviable. Labor has done far more for the Australian people than that mealy mouthed, pathetic bunch of conservatives will ever be able to claim.
However, most of the above is in the past, and sadly times have changed. Once upon a time The ALP was a political party with purpose and direction, we all clearly knew what it stood for and we all knew where it was headed. Today I see a party divided, a party that lacks purpose and a party that has lost its core principles. If Labor does not reform by introducing democracy within, and does not return to its core values I do not see a long term future for the party in modern Australia, certainly no future as a pale imitation of its conservative enemies. Factional disintegration will lead to, hopefully, a 'new' party of the left, one that takes the best of the old ALP and combines it with the needs of a sustainable modern Australia.

I thank every contributer no room to do so with individuals, but yes to o sung wo.
I am in pain, my party is in pain, my union, all unions, are in pain.
I write as I do, because both movements should be, speaking out for their membership.
Yet lost in an isolated world, screened off from reality of public opinion, and the future they are imposing on both, and my country, it is time to steal a quote.
*For all good men to come to the aid of the party/Union*
I think the ALP was not then ready to govern, when in 2006 Rudd bought hope.
That work choices briefly bought us together, but left change on the shelf.
To days sickness, was in existence then, we had Howard working for us as the ladder we climbed to office.
Rudd fell, factionalism bought him down, and from that day we both produced policy,s to be proud of, and let Gillard out of her play pen to put junk policy,s like the peoples forum, gee need I say more?
It is my view, Liberals are not yet ready to govern.
They will stand on shaky feet.
But we return a favor, we gifted them victory.
And like children,the power behind the ALP, inside and out of Parliament, continue to blame their victims!
Labor and unions, all unions, need to see in the eyes of this poster, many within their own ranks, those who held the knife are an illness Labor must confront.
Change is imposible if 50% of any vote remains the propewrty of unions.
Believe it or not those vote owners are harming the majority who would be ALP members if their voice could be heard above the sound of union head imposing that song, solidarity forever on a whole country, a country uninterested in it.

Dear spindoc,

Your post says much that is good about you.

Dear runner,

May you achieve gruntlement.

david f

Dear runner,

May you achieve gruntlement.

on one level yes DAvid but surely you aren't foolish enough not to know that God can't be mocked. He has certainly not left HIs throne despite the corruption of mankind. Thank Him for the Only incorruptible ONe and that certainly aint you.

Dear runner,

One can mock a non-existent entity, but it is pointless to do so.

But can Labor survive?
Belly,
for the last time get it into you, Labor is dead ! It has been killed by Whitlam 40 years ago.
I share your sentiments about the Tree & those who made Labor but they too have long since disappeared. The ALP has taken over but it failed to adhere to the Labor principles, instead it morphed into one of the most corrupt & useless & expensive failures this country has endured. Let's hope the ALP dies so that Labor can rise again.

G'day there BELLY old chap...

As PAUL1405 said in his thread '...the Australian people owe a great debt to the Australian Labour Party...' ? And we do !

Moreover BELLY, YOU'RE a important even a integral part of that great Party. So you should not forget it ol' man ? True, at the moment they're having a rough time of it. Caused essentially through the absurd actions of a few. However, after September next, hopeful we'll all be done with those 'few', and you and your Party can start afresh with a clean sheet of paper, and with an abundance of some vibrant, classy and brand new 'untainted stock' of young Labour talent.

Forming a firm covenant with the Australian electorate to firstly; EXPEL ALL those currently in Federal Labour; Secondly, never again allow this once great country to fall into the bungling hands of such a morally corrupt, imperious and peremptory group of oligarchs to trash, and pervade the once good name and reputation of the Australian Labour Party.

Labour has led us through wars BELLY, there's no reason why they can't rise above this mess !

Indy I prefer ignoring your diatribes rather than get bogged down.
O sung wo, yes I too know we are not dead yet.
But my words are to see this never happens again.
Few, who watched me work as a unionist, would not agree I had the ability to fix things without fuss.
And I countinue to be honored by the trust I had, mostly on both sides.
SOME suits clearly never knew the minds of our members both movements.
I talk still for those sitting in those lunch rooms and sheds.
The thought they are blind mice, will do as told is stupid.
You can not force views on them.
Every man or woman [thanks Kevin] who sits in a union or Labor chair, should remember its past, and hand it over in better condition than it was.
A silly class warfare, straight out of the 1940,s and 50,s is being thrown around.
Ignoring our middle class is for certain running the unions and party.
And that the wish to join them out weights and wish for a class warfare, a silly damaging one.
ALP needs policy's, some great ones have come from Rudd/Gillard that serve most not a class, leave the dream time3 stuff to the greens.
Hurtful to know my right wing faction, born to put us on the middle way, has dirty hands after shafting my party.

Indy I prefer ignoring your diatribes rather than get bogged down.
Belly,
you're already bogged, you just haven't realised yet what you're bogged in when you followed them by looking backwards.

I say a load of derogatory things to you Belly, but in my heart I have always know that you are a “true believer,” as I have told you I grew up with them tiger, I understand your passion, I hope your party finds democratic socialist trail again, but in saying that Simon Creans and John Faulkners are short on the ground at the moment.

Dear SOG,

Just curious.

Who do you think was a truly great Labor PM?

Dear Belly,

Who do you think was?

Lexi,
I have absolutely no doubt that there have been very good Labor Governments with great PM's but not in my time which goes back to 1971.
I can't even think of a great Liberal PM or a very good Liberal Government in the time since. I have however experienced both present colours of Government & I found that the Liberals do a better job than the ALP. A Labor Government on the other hand would probably come out on top if were there to be one.
The reason why Labor was so popular with the working class was because it was founded to service the needs of the working class. The ALP saw a loophole by pretending to be Labor & the rest as they say is history.

<< Sustainability, so what do you guys consider as a sustainable Australia. >>

Rechtub, I have outlined what I mean by sustainability just about every second time I have written a post about it…. which adds up to quite a few hundred over the last few years!!

The fundamental principle is to achieve a demand regime and a supply capacity that are harmonious in an ongoing manner. That is, to stabilise the demand for all our basic resources, services, infrastructure and everything else that contributes to our quality of life by stabilising our population.

We would then need far less economic growth to achieve far more positive outcomes. We would be able to balance the books economically, and our environment would not be continuously compromised.

In short, sustainability is the capacity to endure.

It is worth reading all of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainability#Principles_and_concepts

Rechtub, this stuff is so fundamentally important and surely should be of the utmost concern in discussions about our political future. And yet, it isn’t!! Which is absolutely staggering.

After you’ve read this, I’m sure you will agree that we simply MUST get our political masters to embrace a sustainable future.

And the only possibility of this in the foreseeable future is for Labor to get their sustainability-minded people into leadership positions… and make it happen!!

It is interesting to note that Kelvin Thomson has been talking about this sort of thing for years (go Google him – he’s got lots of youtubes), which pretty strongly goes against the Labor doctrine of continuous growth, and yet he hasn’t been reined in at all (as far as we the public know).

And Gillard chose Bob Carr, a well-known environmentalist/sustainabilityist out of the blue to pull into one of the highest positions in the country, again in apparent contradiction to Labor’s strongly antisustainabilityist very-high-immigration constant-rapid-economic-growth approach.

So I reckon Labor is not too far away from actually doing this!!

I voted Labor in the unwinnable election that Keating won. I found his gloating more honest than the humility politicians adopt after they have won an election. "I am humbled by..." What nonsense! My dictionary defines to humble as to defeat decisively or to bring bring down in power or status. The loser is humbled not the winner. Then Keating spoiled it. He called it a victory for the true believers. I don't like being called a true believer. I voted Labor because I thought at that time they were better than the alternative.

....They will stand on shaky feet.

Yes Belly, and who fault is that.

This mess your lot have caused is goimg to be a very painful hole to dig ourselves out from, and nom doubt labor die hards will play the blame game, much like the one QLD labor are trying to bring on.

If only Julia had accepted defeat three years ago.

Dear rehctub,

If you were in a contest and there was a chance of winning would you accept defeat? I wouldn't, and I wouldn't expect it of anyone else.

SOG thanks, Lexi Hawky/Keiting/history already agrees with me, they warts and all, stand tall.
Whitlam, know it is not the right spelling, had to do his best, before being elected.
He had to drag the party and its faceless men in to this century.
He never achieved as much as both former ones but had an intellect of giant proportions, pity his ego was often not understood.
I need to clear up this, I am not insider in Party or union.
It was always my wish to serve and include union members, not promote myself.
And my party ? branches are in my area, unwelcomeing!
But as a campaigner I am far more active than most, of the self promoters I mean.
A sure and visible sign is there for those who gave birth to.
The total deception, that Rudd was the one bringing discontent to the party is there.
Shorten looked more concerned than normal on tv last night.
He once was a craftsman when speaking in public.
*If only Rudd had taken his chance at a double dissolution election 12 months before his knifing!
He would in all eyes, be the great man I know he is.
He is now gone, no chance he will return.

Ending the war on Rudd, with in the government may help.
IF it has, and I doubt it, opens the eyes of those who knifed him, and those who supported that action.
However had Rudd never been born Labors trouble would have still taken place, sooner rather than later.
Great policy,s, Labor is the birth place of change, mixed with Gillards gut busting belly flops.
The confrontation, party and its birth parent Unions has not yet taken place.
Mum and dad still claim the ALP to be their child, to do with as they will.
Australia will never except that.
Post September, a reality will emerge, that both must travel different paths, or both could die.
I think unions should fund the ALP, but if it says they then own it, let us fund it with chook raffles down at the pub.
Those claiming Labor dogged on the working class by becoming more Mainstream may care to comment on its right forcing defeat on us rather than give up control of the party..

Lexi>> Just curious.
Who do you think was a truly great Labor PM?<<

Lexi let us not talk exclusively about achievements but more so the philosophy of old Labor as opposed to new Labor that came with Whitlam and continues today.

John Curtain’s words are the ones I have always embraced as the reason the ALP existed.
“Our movement is one for humanity, not one for material gain.”
A great old Labor sentiment, but new centralist Labor wants corporate and pleb, you can’t have both, one must submit to the other.

Jim Scullin fought for Federal Arbitration and an increase on import tariffs to protect our domestic economy.
New Labor under Whitlam slashed tariffs in his first year of office leading to a 30% rise in imports that year, the beginning of the demolition of our economy and betrayal of the working class.

Old Labor founded the Commonwealth Bank and the Commonwealth Shipping Line, new Labor sold them off.

As I said to you on another thread Lexi my belle, if this new Labor suits you, so be it, it does not suit me.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for replying.

In my opinion Bob Hawke was the best Labor PM.
He had heart.

Dear SOG,

I appreciate your sentiments.

I recognise the mess that Labor is in currently.
However, what's the alternative?

I have to vote for the party that I feel will
not cut things that my family needs. I don't
earn a six figure salary.

Lexi I too have a soft spot for Bob...take a peek at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzfdCPx5lAM

I don't have a soft spot for Bob. At a time of tension between India and Pakistan he sold Mystere jets to Pakistan for $25M increasing the stresses in the region and jeopardising a $960M annual trade with India. He also supported the blockade against Bougainville by PNG which was condemned by the UN. It caused possibly 10,000 deaths by preventing medical supplies to flow to Bougainville. The patrol boats which were carrying out the blockade were made by ASI (Australian Shipbuilding Industries) many of whose workers lived in Bomber Beazley's district in Western Australia. Pilots on detached duty with NZ and Australian military manned the helicopters operating on Bougainville. Hawke was a hawk.

....If only Rudd had taken his chance at a double dissolution election 12 months before his knifing!

Belly, Rudd wasn't game, as he knew he would get flogged, as a direct response to the incompetence of the party he led.

Remember, he, along with his deputy (now PM) opened our borders, resided over a failed policy that cost four young lives and went to Cooenhargen looking for a trophy, where the bowl of soup was about $85.00.

Tax payers look for stability and value for money, and Rudd didn't deliver either.

SOG I beg to differ, new Labor has not yet been born, it will arrive soon, as a result of this current mass suicide.
Rechtub, I am not trying to provoke you, but without reserve saying what I think.
*The subject is beyond your understanding*
A fact we are forced to confront, Labor by its own internal behavior is now unelectable.
True believers do not outnumber those who will not vote for Labor/Gillard.
But hidden from view, in the shadow of Labors wrongs is a party just as bad,lead by a leader maybe in power even worse Liberal/Abbott.
Nothing can be done,our last chance was far more popular than both,but hated by the few, who sold the ALP in to long term opposition.
And sit,contentedly! thinking Abbott/Liberals will be bad enough to make Australia forget them!
Labor HAD NO CHOICE it had to thanks to my 3 Prime Ministers, get to electable policy's, it did not flee from its roots, it moved with them.
Now torn and dirty from its INTERNAL lack of harmony it must become new Labor.
A party not controlled as was England,s by it Trades hall/union heads.
After all if unions had all the answers, why can they not[without change] lift membership?
Change for them must include cuts in overheads such as 3 branches in one state.

SOG I beg to differ, new Labor has not yet been born,
Belly,
It hasn't even been conceived yet & when it does let's pray it's a test tube baby devoid of all the bad genes.

...I.have to vote for the party that I feel will
not cut things that my family needs. I don't
earn a six figure salary.

Lexi, this is the type of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place, IT'S ALL ABOUT ME.

You see, I think differently to you, in that my concerns lie for what's best for the nation as a whole. It is for this reason that I am not tied to one party, however, having owned a small business through the birth and rebirth of UN fair dismissal laws, I will never vote for labor unless they make the employer/employee playing field even.

BTW for the record, I was a true believer and loyal Bob supporter.

Now back to your me-isum, this government is without doubt the most incompitent mob in political history.

They have resided over, or instigated continual policy failures that have not only damaged you and I, but damaged future generations to follow, a mess that will take a lot of pain if we ever expect to give future gen a lifestyle and outlook that even closely resembles what you and I have enjoyed.

David F, you have to remember the circumstances that led to the 2010 election.

First we had the most popular labor PM since Bob, knifed in the back, by the current PM and her factions, PROMISING that she would do a far better job, and let's face it, the failed trophies on the wall from Rudd, suggested that wouldn't be hard.

So, off she went, for a short while, then advised that all would be fine, as the REAL JULIA was about to emerge.

Then came the election.

One of the key points to winning any election is winning the trust and support of THE PEOPLE.

The people handed down a vote of no confidence, but she didn't respect, or accept that and some two plus years and billions of waste latter, she has not only buried herself, but taken labor with her.

A huge price to pay for ones ambition and self pride, don't you think?

Dear rehctub,

We're all well aware of your reasons for not
voting for Labor. And it is all about YOU.
If you were thinking about the nation you
would be prepared to look at the bigger picture.
You're not. The Labor Party came into power
during the last election with the support of
the Independents and the Greens. Tony Abbott
was prepared to do whatever it took to win their
support - but he didn't succeed. What's going to
happen at this next election - we'll have to wait
and see.

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.
Ultimately the voters will decide who they want
in governing this nation. Take a look at the states
who voted Liberal in their state elections - and
see how well they're doing currently. Perhaps that
might give you some food for thought.

Lexi a fine post congrats on it.
No need to step around it, Labor until it dumped Rudd was by far the best out of this mob.
I get no joy in understanding we are gone.
But name a Social welfare achievement, a National conservation one , that equals Labors saving the Franklin river and making Kacado our proud national park.
See the NDIS scheme and the Gonsky report out comes.
We said sorry, re read the feeble insulting reply of the then leader of the Liberals.
See the truth, as history will, of our signature appearing on the
Kyoto agreement A GREAT THING.
Remember the opening up of Australian banks and our nation to world trade.
As in the 1970,s we have much to be proud of.
BUT TOO we must understand it is us, more than we like to admit, who take our party in to free fall, then opposition.
We must confront, pain and all, our very best continue to call for change.
Standing right in front of that change, SMIRK firmly on their face, is the curent owners of power they must give up.
We can not, under party rules, out vote them, so they must act for the party.
An unlikely event!
See too the dreadful way super tax was left to burn and bring abuse, then the end product shown as brilliant!
We fail,to sell our self.

Dear Belly,

Labor needs to hold the Coalition to account
prior to the next election. They also need
to let voters know of their achievements
to date to counter-the negativity of the tabloid
press which has such a big influence on voters
and polls.

....Rechtub, I am not trying to provoke you, but without reserve saying what I think.
*The subject is beyond your understanding*

What's to understand about it Belly, Rudds labor were on the nose and heading south big time, as they had stuffed up the school halls program, insulation, which cost lives, Copenhagen and opened our borders. That's why he wasn't game, regardless of what you may think.

...Kyoto agreement A GREAT THING.
Kyoto you say, yep, that's where Rudd STOLE LAND from farmers just so he could be a stand out at Copenhagen. Fat lot of good that did him, but he still stole the land.

BTW, these same farmers have to pay rates on this land, but can't use it.

Lexi, the support by the ind and greens turned out to be a bitter sweet arrangement, as despite the hurt they have caused, we are unlikely to see much from the for quite a while.

And while you may say it's all about me, it's quite simple, if an employee can up and leave, simply because of a better offer, why can't an employer have the same rights?

Dear rehctub,

You ask:

Why can't an employer have the same rights as an employee?

Because business does not have the right to get
whatever it wants to the detriment of working people.

We are in critical times and Australia requires a
reassessment of the relationship between labour
and capital, a re-assessment which takes into account
the politics of industrial democracy, profit, and
long term planning. What we don't need is the
"kick-the-worker-today-and-take-the-money-tomorrow,"
attitude. The only way in which the country can work
properly is for management and labour to co-operate
with one another, not condemn one another.

But the sad truth is that condemnation is the only
language that some employers appear to understand.
Take this quote from Charles Copeman (ex -Peko-Wallsend boss)
"It isn't a matter for conciliation, it's a matter
for arbitration. We are not prepared to conciliate!"

Obviously the inevitable expansion of capital with its
attendant social inequality and natural destruction
brooks no interference and allows no moral judgements.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/former-g-g-reflects-on-what-could-have-been/story-fn59niix-1226613600497
I lived and was politically active in the time of the story behind this link.
1972 saw me a little left of reality and a very confirmed supporter of my ALP.
Heated/exiting days, days of achievement and change and days of self inflicted wounds.
Only a blind person would not from day one,a lengthy two man cabinet, see all the above emerge.
Frank Packer then was what todays Fox news is,a hater of Labor on steroids he put front page hate and lies out , some times he onlyhad to look at ministers in the government to find a true story,some times he just made it up.
Labor must not forget the power of the press and self interested power.
Much of 1975 has been repeated, if in doubt read with eyes wide open, the full history of the dismissal.
Ministers having not to private affairs, ignoring the PM and continuing to try , for the right reasons, buying Australia back,billions of dollars.
From a slippery go between , someone found in a bar, nick named by tory,s, justly it seems *monkey nuts and rice*
Those not seeing some similarity between that day and today, are not looking in the same direction.
By the time of the dismissal I openly saw our faults,but just could not swallow Curr,s treachery.
Today, and yesterday in the Australian, my anger was justified.
But looking back Hawk/Keiting ran a tighter better ship, the big fella could not tame his team, the left ran amuck.
Strange today I am sure, it is the right, 1975 saw the landslide, it put a man we must judge on his time as PM, not his current persona big Mal in office, he wasted that time.
And he like his drunken mate, divided this country.
We are living in a time warp, about to repeat the past yet again.
I hope,think I know, Labor will as it did then emerge much better for its loss, maybe even get back to the joy of the night Keven 07 bought so much hope and promise.
Even achieve that promise!.

You're kidding Lexi, name one such achievement (that's been funded) as you must remember, an unfunded policy is really only a dream waiting to become a reality and, looking at their record, even when it becomes a reality, chances are they will only stuff it up.

Now as for employee/employer arrangements, you have no problem with employees having the freedom to pick and choose, but the employer can't. Is that what you're saying?

The next thing you sill be saying is how did our IR system get in such a mess.

Where did all this casual, or contract labor come from.

Where did the stability for the working man go.

Well, the answer is very simple Lexi. It's called LABOR GOVERNMENTS.

You have a point there rehctub. Many Queenslanders remember how Bob Hawke helped his mate Reg Ansett out in the pilots' strike, at the cost of Queensland's tourist industry.

Previous accommodation owners and other tourism operators who were driven out of business are still driving cabs and selling real estate.

The damage done to north Queensland set the region back decades.

Lexi you are targeted by intellectual dwarfs.
In posting threads like this for 3 years, a little more in respect of NSW ALP, I never intended to please the following.
Liberals, Nationals, Greens or the true lost Tea Party followers of the former two.
Surely I am safe in claiming not one of the above, ever undertook navel gazing, reviewing the many faults of their side.
Rechtub and some, are like those primitive natives stuck even today with belief in a cargo cult.
Truth is yet to confront many , it will.
My purpose is plain, to be the voice on my party,s shoulder, reminding it, and those supporting it, other thoughts and the truth can not be hidden.
We must turn on our own self made problems, HARSHLY.
The dumping of a 1st term PM the HSU we pretend did not take place.
The call to dump free thought, inside and out side Parliament by my beloved Unions heads.
The disrespect hidden in that, the very idea members of both groups should not think.
They have, always it is from with in our ranks the LIBERALS RETURN TO POWER.
Last night, a mate, in pure sorrow, mixed with anger, told me after a lifetime of voting Labor, 38 years, he never will again.
He said 70% of those who shared his view in 2007, now share his new view.
38 members of *a Labor Branch* had an e mail telling them to forget federal issues, work at ground level.
Had I never been born, had my truths not turned me from a well respected union official to a cast off, my words would still exist, the truth Labor needs reform, that just like 1975 internal bickering has bought us to our knees.
And that NSW FILTH will be seen for a very long time as our brand.
Indignant? then say so! publicly flog the HSU NSW FILTH, DEVISIONS IN LABOR, RIGHTS OWNERSHIP, OR BE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

....Lexi you are targeted by intellectual dwarfs.

Thanks for the compliment Belly. Perhaps nobody told you that you don't build a glass house, then throw stones.

Luckily for you, I don't sook when insulted, so I'll let that one go through to the keeper, perhaps you could learn to do the same, so at least you could stay, rather than take your ball and run, which is what you usually do when someone offends you.

Lexi
I often use butchery as an example, mainly because I know it well,so here's an example of labor's lunacy with regards to IR laws.

In retail, we sometimes switch from box meat, to body meat, often because there is a shortage of prime box meat, Brought about by export demand.

So, we need a butcher, so often you have to take one who can't bone beef, something that is becoming common nowadays.

Problem is, if we switch to body meat, we can't then let that butcher go, in favor of one who is a good boner.

Funny part is, good boners command a higher rate, so they can be hard to find, so it's not about saving money on staff, when you have to switch.

Now tell me, do you think that's fair?

And Belly, thanks to continued union intervention, the modern day meat worker is on less today (in real terms) than they were twenty years ago.

And they think they are clever.

I'll bet the union officials are on way more that they were twenty years ago.

Labor and the unions have made every day working people suffer, with casualization of the workforce and contract labor arrangements.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-mp-the-jail-visit-and-the-dole-deals-20130405-2hc50.html
Rechtub, if reporting you to be the person you try so hard to make me see is insulting you, sorry, maybe it is true! truth hurts!
The link is only remotely connected to Labor.
It is a concerning link to Richard Torbay, the real him, who once looked so clean.
It by inference, leads to Obied and his filth ridden mate, Macdonald.
How ever see, eyes wide open,it was my enemy for ever, his Party the Nationals, who to their eternal credit, unmasked him!
Outstanding! praise worthy.
As my country confronts a poor government, elected because some in Labor are worse, we all except second best.
EVERY thief /fraud/fool in Parliament betrays us all.

Dear rehctub,

My apologies for not getting back to you earlier.
I've been mulling over your question for me to
name one achievement of Labor's that's been
funded. There's quite a few, however the one
that I think the government can justly be proud
of, and which I'm sure the Coalition supports has
to be - The Royal Commission into Insitutional
Responses to Child Sex Abuse. (That's the full title).

As a commentator stated:

"It's worth asking whether such a inquiry with
such wide-ranging powers would have been commissioned
by Tony Abbott, given his personal history with the
Catholic Church. There must be considerable doubt."

This Commission is long overdue, but it was Julia
Gillard who finally took responsibility.

That slur is playing dirty, and fast and loose with the facts.

The record shows that Julia Gillard dragged her large caboose on that one too, only setting up a very narrow inquiry after being pushed hard by many interests, including in NSW,

From the ABC,

<Ms Gillard had been under pressure to act following growing calls for a national inquiry into explosive allegations by a senior New South Wales police investigator that the Catholic Church covered up evidence involving paedophile priests.

A number of senior Labor MPs, as well as key independents, had already voiced their support for action on a national scale.

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott also declared his support for a "wide-ranging" royal commission into child sex abuse but said it should not just focus on claims involving the Catholic Church>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-12/gillard-launches-royal-commission-into-child-abuse/4367364

I suppose you will now put a negative spin on Abbott (rightly) echoing the call for a broader inquiry.

Well I feel I can put the whip away.
After a horse hits the front in a race,and nears the winning post, putting the whip away is a sign the race is won.
I must note my ever present challenging to Conservatives/Liberals, and assorted red necks, to tell of the faults on their team, stays unanswered.
Too the redneck,wish we had viewer posts, chins collars and necks all red with anger, without understanding.
But not informed comment.
Cargo cult, those thinking our incoming government will all have halos fitted and do wonderful things ,never making a single enemy is, come on! we know it is blindness.
Using an others quote but come! in respect of Abbott, *in your guts you know he is nuts!*
Labor will reform, self interests will go, but it will take the open warefare AFTER OUR DEFEAT!

Belly,
I do not see anyone here saying the Libs are going to be perfect, but at least we can expect far better financial management, by their track record.

For myself, I expect the illegals to be stopped and I have hopes that the flawed ideology of multiculturalism will finally be dropped. As time goes on, I also expect continued lack of public support for the theory of AGW as evidence grows that climate change is a natural occurance that is beyond human influence. I think Labor has backed the wrong horse here. The carbon output keeps rising but not the earths temperature.

Oh, you will see critisism from those who dissagree with Libs actions, myself included, but the main thing at this stage is to be rid of the totally incompedent mob that are there now.

I hope the Libs will not try to pay off the massive debt left by Labor, but simply pay the interest. The interest bill should be included in each budget and called 'Labors Legacy', to keep reminding everyone of this terrible government.

onthebeach,

Questioning things is not a slur.
But manipulating and misrepresenting facts
and then calling someone a liar due to changed
circumstances and basing an entire campaign on
a lie certainly lowers the bar in the political
arena. BTW the inquiry already has such wide-
ranging powers - there is no need for the
Coalition to ask for more or to not support it.
They're simply stalling as usual.
It's amazing what can be achieved when you don't
care who suggested it.

Cheers.

Banjo, not unexpected mate, but do you understand just how Cargo cult/unrealistic you wants are.
As in Ludwig,s thread both sides want more migration/population, and they will get it .
It drives productivity, Liberals will work at stopping the boats, will do so, if the senate lets them, unlike its reaction to Labors efforts.
But it will not change much with the world wide lie modern Migration/Multi cultorism is/has become.
A silent plan seems to be active world wide, to try to make us love not being our selves.
Last, Cargo cultism is nothing compared to the blind silliness, the very thought GFC did not take place.
Along with the forgetfulness that Howard taxed us much, to help build his future fund and he miss used the peak of the mining boom to reward industry,s not the nation as a whole.
I bring to your attention, AWB/Children over board and three heads that quietly left making it look normal!
Mate it maybe you missed it, but we suffer still from Big Mals dropping the gates and with no checks letting in a generation of Criminals from Lebanon that continue generations of crimes in this country.

Apology accepted Lexi, as I understand the complexity of the task.
Not sure your example fits the criteria though, as the enquiry has only just started, so labor haven't had time to stuff it up, or change their mind which seems to be their latest approach to just about anything they throw out there as policy.

Their on again, off again approach to policy on the run of late, is just verifying their incompetence and strengthening the case for getting rid of them.

Now I will ask you which of these more recent stuff ups has damaged them the most, super and the 'fabulously rich comment, their failure to roll out the NBN AS PROMISED, their failure to achieve budget, AS PROMISED AT ANY COST.

Please let me know if you need some more, alternatively, may I suggest you just wait a day or two.

At least when madam PM is OS, it reduces her opportunities to stuff things up.

Belly, What can I say other than check my post history on the topic, and you will note that I don't expect Abbott can do a great job, as he will have to plug the leaks left by labor, before he can begin to sail the ship.

I can't believe you labor supporters can't see the mess you have helped create with you support for these incompetent people.

Dear Ludwig, Belly & anybody else who may be there,

I shall not be at the Forum on April 13 but will be at the dinner wearing 'david f'. The dinner is from 6 pm at JK Tandoori and Curry House, at the corner of Station Rd and Riverview Terrace, Indooroopilly. It will be informal and inexpensive. BYO alcohol (the Indooroopilly Hotel bottle shop is over the road).

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/power-struggle-in-victorian-right-wing-faction/story-fn59noo3-1226615258980
Wish I could be there David, it would have been ab honor to meet you.
The link is posted as evidence my mob need to control infighting.
I have another one to post both contribute in my view to the direction of the thread.
We, all of us, should not discount Labors troubles, but not forget the other side has its troubles too, other than Abbott.
Good news too Conroy is leaving after the election.
What a shame he will not leave his power brokers job too.

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/1418103/new-database-shows-us-informants-were-inside-whitlams-alp/?cs=12
This link, in part confirms my words about the Labor Government in the years 1972 till 1975.
I rather think it too, gives an insight to what is being said, inside the party today.
I will, as will many of us, belong gone when this depth of understanding the current party is openly printed.
OH we will have our public dog fight, post election, watch, observe with interest as some who bought about todays troubles, claim they fought against it.
Bob Carr, a great man in my view, was about 20, I am not upset with him or any one for their CRAWLING to the USA, far worse was done to us by the then CIA driven America, take Chile.
At a dinner for John Ducker, I have the portrait, Bob we heard, as a 20 year old often answer hid phone, Ducker,s, imitating him.
Today Thatcher is dead, many are sorry, but I am reminded, as I am with Abbott/Howard, of her modeling her self on Churchill, no feelings have changed for me, I held her in contempt then and now.
But remembered during the mornings news.
America in ww 2 made very sure, it tells us proudly today, colonialism was over.
Yet without restraint it controlled even an Australian Federal election,in its own game of monopoly.
It need not have bothered, I unlike many remember, a young American went to prison back then.
For telling us how his country did what voters always intended, got rid of an ALP government.

Dear rehctub,

Let's have a debate on the government by all means but
let's make sure we stick to the facts - and not just go
with the beat-ups in the tabloid press.

Commentators, the International Monetary Fund, the Reserve
Bank, economic experts all point out that:
"Australia's debt is so low, it has the gold triple A rating.
Interest rates are low and our economy is the envy of the
industrialised world. The fact is Australia's net debt
is dramatically lower then the net debt levels of every single
major advanced economy."

"Our current net debt is 10% of GDP compared to around 80%
of the USA and the UK and around 35% of Canada."

Labor made a choice to support local jobs during the GFC,
a choice many countries around the world didn't or
couldn't make. They will be paying a very high price for
many years.

But you go ahead and nit-pick - tell us what they've been
doing wrong, and how incompetent they are, et cetera.
Without giving us the bigger picture.
I'll be interested to hear your take on things a few years
from now - if the Coalition get into government.
Perhaps you need to talk to people from the states that
currently have Liberal governments. Although I can see that
it probably would be pointless. Your mind's made up.
No point in further discussion. Labor's bad, Libs good!
Mr Abbott will take your money - so that he can give you all the
free things he's promising.

See you on another thread.

Lexi,

US gross debt to GDP ratio is actually 107 percent.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

But political popularity is all about perception, and, well.....

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for that.

And still some complain!

Lexi, it amuses me how anyone can think that going from + 20 billion, to - 200 billion, in less than six years, is an achievement.

Poirot, "But political popularity is all about perception, and, well.."

Plainly you believe that voters do not know what is best for them.

While your Greens/Gillard government always presumes to know what is best for them.

Come the revolution, eh?

In the interim it is rather obvious that the Greens are not inclined to share any responsibility for Gillard's woes. With friends like the Greens who needs enemies?

onthebeach,

There you go again - surmising things of which you have no idea.

My "perception" of Gillard, and Labor under her, is such that I have no desire to vote for the leader or the party.

(Nor do I have a desire to vote Liberal under Abbott)

It may interest you to know that in the last two state elections, this "lefty" has voted for her local Liberal candidate because he and his party were the ones who appealed to me...in comparison to their Labor counterparts.

Belly,
You don't need to remind me of Fraser, I did much to support his election and is the worst thing I ever did and wasted a heap of my own money as well. The only thing that changed was the name on the office door and in fact it got worse with more multiculturalism and bringing in a whole heap of aliens that never integrated and never will. Age has not improved him either.

In the last couple of years of the Howard government they dropped the word MC and were willing to let it just die out. Gillard put it up a couple of times but it got no public support, so I think there is a good chance it will be killed off. Dispite MC being forced upon us, I contend we are not multicultural but we are multi-racial. We are tolerant of some cultural traits of some but our basic society is still based on the Westminister system. I shudder to think of the millions wasted on MC over the years. Fancy thinking 'Unity in Diversity' will work.

Labor may come again with some compedent people, but not now. They have to go. I will judge the Libs on their performance, the least I expect financial restraint and the boats stopped.

Banjo I saw much to admire in that post, and much to agree with.
May I stretch the friend ship with a further truth.
Labor has done good things great even in this few years.
But read that link, eary stuff!
Just as then Labor, some within , tipped the scales against us.
Just like then the wrong leader with the wrong team is about to be/was elected.
Folk capable of knowing the truth, should consider in depth what Abbott is planning.
Rechtub , sorry we can talk sport but you mate get the information/views you hold from the paper the fish and chips is wrapped in.
Now what other way to address you? you throw stuff around at your pleasure and it is hard for any one, to see so clearly you are not equipped to judge most.

Belly,
You say Labor has done some good things in the last few years, well off the top of my head I can't think of any. If there is they are overshadowed by all the bad. That is their own fault. There are 50 plus 'Labpr Lemons' circulating and I fully intend to publicize them again before the election.

I find it amusing that you, and Lexi, continually downplay Abbott and as yet he has not been tried. It seems the Libs work more on the Cabinet style rather than the one man band that Labor uses. Rudd and Gillard were both untried and were duds. One big critisism I have of Labor is that they place too much faith in their choice of leader, and they fail if he/she does poor or stupid things, wheras the LIbs work more as a team. Arrogant Fraser was an exception. Turnbull tried the one man band thing but they turfted him.

Bit of water to go under the bridge yet before the election, but I have good expectations of it delivering a better government.

Dear Banjo,

I seem to recall that John Howard was anything
but a team player. And we don't need to wait
on Mr Abbott not being "tried" as you put it.
His record as Health Minister speaks for itself.
As does his regular past appearances on camera
and his comments on national television. It's
hard to look up to a leader who keeps his ear to
the ground - and will do whatever it takes to become the
PM. Personal ambition is not a necessarily a bad
thing - but Mr Abbott practises the bare-knuckles
kind. You may want him to represent you but we'll have
to wait and see if the rest of the country agrees
with you. Especially the people who currently have
Liberal governments in the states - and are experiencing
their policies first hand.

Banjo, no heat, maybe a sly grin!
But that is bought about by the confidence you can not for fill the task I set you.
List, other than financial matters and stopping the boats, issues I concede you have public opinion on your side.
Show me the Nation building things you mob have done, post ww2.
MINE!
With great pride! saying sorry, NDIS, NBN, pension rises unmatched by any past government, brilliant management of the GFC spotlighting health and education, the need for better.
Past includes so much,we opened our banks to competition, national parks Australia lead the world to China in the 1970,s.
Much more but my friend knowing your task is imposable I reduce the long lists at hand.

Belly,
Firstly, I am not a Lib. I just intend to vote that way this time and do what I also can to oust the present incompedents.

In my view there was no 'brilliant' management of the GFC. We got through simply because China kept strongly buying our iron ore, gas and coal. The money this government borrowed and spent on non productive items was wasted. No infastructure was built, we have nothing to show for the money. We could have had a rebuilt Pacific highway, for example. Nothing has changed in education and health, if you mean the Gonski report, it is 'pie in the sky' stuff and unfunded. Was not Rudd going to take over all the hospitals? Pension rises occurred under the previous government.

Now we get to the NBN, which is a disaster. There are massive cost blowouts, the latest estimate I saw was $90 Billion. then it is running badly behind schedule and very low take up by people. The ones that have are already whinging about the cost. Then we get to the NDIS. another unfunded 'pie in the sky'. All Gillard acheived with that was to raise unreal expectations of the disabled. With running costs about $8 billion per year, the only way that will come about is by a massive reduction in proposed services and/or many disabled persons will not qualify for the assistance.

Comon Belly this mob has done nothing except lie and deceive, and wasted billions. Even lied to Wilkie about your favourite, the pokies.

Banjo consider my post history.
Truly consider just what I have put in print here over the last 3 years.
Bit cranky at times but if I can target so much that is wrong about my party.
And focus on the faults of Union power brokers.
Do you think I would lie, to protect both or either?
I believe, without doubt,NBN NDIS Carbon tax, Gonsky report,saying sorry are out standing reforms.
Previous Labor government achievements include banking reforms,opening us up to the world.
Too that GFC was an achievement, as school rebuilding to keep us in work, gained more than it lost.
Banjo I KNOW we got some things wrong, a weak unfocused public service, let $900 checks go to dead people, folk living over seas who had not lived here for up to 20 years.
I know the pink bats scheme was a way of creating jobs, but that it while not being a total failure,was dreadful in the fact CRIMINALS, won much work.
But do you understand if Unions had a chance to look after safety no one would have died?
I think, with all my heart, Australians do not want to elect Abbott, but that they will, no matter what.
Because the faction fractured ALP is unable to see the world as its targeted people do.
ALP lacks the ability to sell its self.
Like 1975 the ALP seems focused on the injustice [rightfully] of a media uncaring about the blankness that is Abbott,and equally about the voters the ALP flogged out of its camp, and continues to do, with an unrealistic view Gillard is one tough lady, so was thatcher!
Between now and Labors return, I understand, Liberals will tighten our belts,they do that after every Labor government, I concede that.
And just maybe, believe me without true reform there will be no ALP, We on returning to government, will be one team with a focus, and built in to our new DNA, know we govern if at all, for most not just the *Aussie Battlers* who in reality have always voted conservative in any case.

Belly,
You said, "ALP lacks the ability to sell its self".

I disagree, the present ALP simply lacks ability.

Dear Banjo,

As one commentator pointed out:

"A contest between Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott
is a poor way to win government and when Labor
has the likes of the big media, big business
and big money lined up against them it's hard to
get any message out."

The ALP needs internal reform as Belly consistently
keeps pointing out to us. They need grassroots level
re-engagement with people. Fixing the problems of
the ALP requires more than changed leadership. The
control by party machine men and relying on bad research
to justify egregious policies that prove the government
is tougher than the Opposition are problems that won't
go away.

Lexi,
I agree with Belly about the ALP needing reform and I said to him 12 months ago that the sooner an election that wipes out many ALP members from parliament the sooner they can rebuild with better members. They should look closely at the preference of Union staffers and lawyers/academics and get back to selecting rank and file members that have had some life experience.

No indication yet that reform will take place.

You said,"As one commentator pointed out:

"A contest between Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott
is a poor way to win government and when Labor
has the likes of the big media, big business
and big money lined up against them it's hard to
get any message out."

I disagree with that. Labor has all the parliamentry press gallery behind it, the Unions, ABC and SBS and the smh and AGE. It was revealed not too long ago that business now gives more money to the ALP than to the LIBS. Right at present, that may not be correct.

The fact is the message has been wrong and the spending too much. Management of projects also leaves much to be desired.

Dear Banjo,

You can disagree with the commentator that I
cited earlier however the fact remains that
media ownership in Australia is notoriously
narrow and that mainstream media offers precious
little diversity, and such diversity as there is
runs along predictable lines. As Julian Burnside,
a Melbourne Barrister and human rights activist,
has stated:

"The economics of print and electronic media tend to
drive opinion in the direction of populism. This has
unhappy results now that both major political parties,
it seems, abandoned their founding principles and
form policies by reference to media coverage generally,
and to news polls and focus groups in particular..."

In other words, as Burnside tells us, "Just as
mainstream traditional media are full of voices (mostly
strident) telling government what to do, so the
blogosphere and social media are full of voices - more
numerous and diverse, and often more strident -
doing the same."

It's therefore now difficult to see significant differences
between the policies of the major parties, except on a
few issues. And, it is impossible to predict with any
confidence how either party will respond to changing
circumstances. As I've stated in the past political
commentators agree that this modern fact of political
life is a result of new technology which allows
political parties to see what policy responses will produce
an electoral advantage in key marginal electorates.

The mainstream media are a vital part of this process, since
the loudest voices in the dominant outlets play a major
part in shaping the views which will be expressed in news
polls. Founding principles and philosophy have disappeared
as significant forces in policy formation - and therein
lies the problem.

What we need is outlets which are rational and principled
without being biased to any social or political position.

Well, one can dream.

Banjo truth continues to be the only measure.
Did I include national superannuation in my list? what a great and much envied thing it is.
Let me tell you a truth.
Years ago, one Nation still existed, Abbott,s scheme to imprison its leader had not yet matured.
Neither had the Rudd revival.
In Orange, under a John Howard government.
At the invitation of Chicken growers/and Processors and Orange growers and distributors, yes national farmers groups asked us, ALL state AWU to come and protest the proposed importation of both.
We shared, [our leaders the platform, with all.
As requested turned body guard for Hanson!
But how many times has this thought struck me?
Local well entrenched NP member praised Hawk/Keiting, for having the guts to open us to world markets, at least 4 members of your ultra right Nationals have said things like that, and will again.
Banjo, think with me on this, simplistic frog swallowing, taking the Axe to Labor based only on red neck headlines.
Will not turn your Liberal team in to princes or is it princess?
I can assure you, your words lack under standing.
See truth says even at worst, some achievements will live in history forever.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/revealed-obeids-grand-plan-for-torbay-as-premier-20130411-2hojs.html
This link surely, warns us all.
It highlights the dirty hands of the NSW right.
But shows how very big and wide the filth that was within, yet controlling the NSW ALP.
We the ALP, must reform or face never again being trustworthy.
We too must not, ever, consider hiding it an option!

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/crean-slams-pm-in-show-of-defiance-20130412-2hqym.html
Some will condemn Crean for these words.
He has impressed me by using them, and the great recent change in him.
I have often, told of an unbreakable link between him Gillard, and Latham.
All shared a policy and a ruthlessness UNCARING FOR PARTY.
I know how bad and how like a wrecking ball Abbott,s plans are.
But too that Labor can not win.
It hurts!
But I can not ignore truth, those fleas, who think, inside Labor, that Abbott,s awfulness will tilt victory to Labor?
How truly STUPID! TO GLOSS OVER OUR TRUE POSITION AND CLAIM VOTERS ARE TOO, STUPID.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/pms-comeback-now-consigned-to-history-20130414-2httz.html
No I am not trying to extend the thread.
It is my view some threads of just 5 posts have been the best in this forum.
And no bag of lolly,s for along thread.
But yes if any thread brings interest, it surely is no sin.
This post, for me, is the most important one,I can remember, I posted in this thread.
It supports my whole thoughts and direction, about both the cause of Labors troubles, and the simple fact.
That fact can not be hidden, by any Ostrich like reference to Labors achievements, not by saying how bad Rudd was,even inventing his wrongs.
This poll tells me we areas I claimed, led by a leader we do not want.
Finding ,after Kevin Rudd said he will not run, 57% want him still!
Do not forget, never in fact forget!
A country that has never! been impressed with Tony Abbott, intends to give him a landslide victory, rather than a failing Gillard.
Such is the view of a leadership and its trades hall blind mice, who will not even look, or consider,the thoughts of the blue colar workers they claim to serve.
It is a fact, that if Labor changed its leader, put Shorten the fallen angel of Labor in charge, Labor would lift in the polls, maybe get to 40%! we once thought that was our worst base!