Just want to register my gratitude to our illustrious leaders in Canberra. Thanks to them I am now not only poorer due to inflation, but my gross worth has diminished.

Yes for the first time, in my 52 years of owning homes,the valuation of my land is down. My valuation arrived yesterday, & it is down 5% from last year.

Not only has our Canberra bunch stuffed up so badly that my power bill is up almost 45% but my assets are worth less.

I have never really wanted to kick anyone before, & never while they were down, but I'd walk a very long way to get one into this pair.

Roll on the election.

But hang on Hasbeen, this guy is the best THE ENTIRE WORLD has to offer. Apparently!

I did say back in 2010, when madam PM weaseled her way back into the top job, that there was a posetive, that being that the next three years would ensure that we would not see another labor government in power for a very long time, not to mention independents.

And I was right, as they are in for the flogging of a life time and it would be quite funny, if not for the carnage caused, which they call success and gloat about.

Just 168 sleeps to go.

Now there's the second posetive in three odd years.

Thanks too to the author and rechtub!
For showing so clearly not understanding is no bar to silly walks and comments.
Swan, once a good bloke, and the silly woman mentioned may if they saw this, tell us about this morning.
It saw our country *holding yet again triple a rating*
Thanks for the grins bought back happy memory's of faulty towers the Goon show and others.

Gee Haz, you really are a grumpy old fart!!

(You have referred to yourself on OLO as an old fart!)

<< Rollon the election >>

Why??

What’s that going to achieve?

Tweedle dumb-ox will get booted out and Tweedle dumberthanadumb-ox will get three years or more to accelerate us along the road to ruin!!

The ONLY answer is to implement a sustainability paradigm, so that we can stop the demand for everything forever increasing and claw back the real meaning of economic growth… and start producing some real improvements for the Australian people.

Labor is more likely to move in this direction than the other mob.

THIS is what you should be supporting here Haz.

And to this end, we have an unfinished discussion here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5686#158402

Belly>> Swan, once a good bloke, and the silly woman mentioned may if they saw this, tell us about this morning.
It saw our country *holding yet again triple a rating<<

Absolute spin and rubbish from a deceptive acolyte is how I would describe your worthless comments my china plate. A more factual comment regarding our Commonwealths fiscal plight would be:

Just over five years ago we had a “triple rating” and 20 BILLION in the bank.
Now we still have a “triple rating,” but are flat broke and owe 200 BILLION to foreign banks.

How could anyone who possesses half a brain extrapolate any positive from our current record breaking Commonwealth deficit? The reason we still have a “triple rating” is because we still have resources buried in our piece of earth, that’s it.

Dear Hasbeen,

Why are you blaming it all on the government,
Climate really is changing for the worst in most
places of Australia. SE Australia is getting hotter,
drier, and more fire prone. S-West Western Australia is
drying out. The Northern tropics are getting wetter.

Extreme weather events are getting more dangerous and
costly over time because more and more people are in
harm's way. Insurance rates have increased due to
extreme weather events in Australia. There's been a
steep ramp in payouts. But hey - you don't believe
in climate change - and you blame the government for
everything. Just wait until the Coalition gets in -
you'll pay for all the free things they want to give
you.

Dear SOG,

Let's have a debate on the economy but let's make
sure we stick to the facts and not the continued
beat-ups in the tabloid press.

The facts are Australia's net debt is dramatically
lower than the net debt levels of every single major
advanced economy.

Our current net debt is 10% of GDP compared to around
80% of the USA and the UK, and around 35% of Canada.

Australia's debt is so low, it has the gold triple A
rating. Interest rates are low and our economy is the
envy of the industrialised world.

Labor made a choice to support local jobs during the GFC,
a choice many countries around the world didn't or
couldn't make, they will be paying a very high price for
many years.

It's about time that we took a stand against misinformation.

It's about time that we took a stand against misinformation.
Lexi,
Yes it's time the academic background bureaucrats stopped lying about the monies they waste & steal from us.
Labor federal Government unfortunately will not change in our time. Unless of course they somehow & miraculously can rid themselves of themselves.

Ludwig>> The ONLY answer is to implement a sustainability paradigm, so that we can stop the demand for everything forever increasing and claw back the real meaning of economic growth… and start producing some real improvements for the Australian people.
Labor is more likely to move in this direction than the other mob.<<

Luddy, sorry I can’t let you get away with a comment that lacks rationality or reason.
I doubled over with laughter at your comment:
“Labor is more likely to move in this direction than the other mob.”

What direction Luddy? Labors “direction” has not managed to deliver one balanced budget in 5 years. Even during years where the government archived record tax receipts. These people are under graduate imbeciles and those who believe they have ANY answers are acolytes or dummkopfs, no offense.

Hasbeen, sorry, I have been busy bagging Belly and Luddy. I looked up the governments criteria for land valuations:

>>Property values are calculated by comparing data for your property to that of similar properties that have been sold. These are reviewed annually and your property value may change from year to year.
This annual revaluation reflects:
• changes in the property market based on the sale of properties over the year
• any new developments made to the property - eg an extension.
Rural property values are assessed based on the sale of properties in the same area or in comparable areas. A range of factors are taken into consideration when comparing rural properties, including:
• the break-up of land types
• yields or stocking rates
• rainfall averages
• water systems.
Commercial and industrial property values are based on the analysis of sales and rental data. Improvements, both those fixed to the land and made to the land, are included in the assessment of the property's capital value. Items not fixed to the land - eg machinery, and the value of the business are not included.<<

I don’t think you can blame the Labor clowns in Canberra, valuations are state govt issues tiger.

Lexi my Belle even the most ardent anti global warming skeptic believes in climate change, it is in the geological record. But is it caused by CO2 emissions, skeptics think not. Hasbeen may have issues with the global warming lobby regarding his land valuations given their influence in getting zoning changes with their Chicken Little “the sky is falling” diatribe.

If land gets devalued do the rates follow suit ?

Dear SOG,

I read Virginia Trioli's article in, "The Weekly
Review," today with great interest. People are
complaining about the high cost of living in this
country and I agree with her. I am proud and pleased
that Australia pays high wages, and has no desire to
head towards the cheaper wage levels of Asia or even
the US. And as she writes, "We all get it. The evidence
mounts and the reports are numerous about how
Melbourne and Sydney have now become some of the most
expensive cities in the world. Housing, transport, food,
and utilities. It all translates into one of the most
enviable lifestyles in the world, but one that gets
less affordable every year."

Nobel laureate economist Joseph Stiglitz wrote last week,
Australia escaped the global ravages of the GFC so well,
that we barely registered a blip. Prices stay high when
you don't go bust. That's the cost of this excellent
lifestyle again.

The arguments will rage about bringing the cost of living
down, and there will be outlandish claims about their
abilities to do this by the major political parties in this
year's federal election. They can't do much about it now.
Governments don't get to set electricity or gas prices
and the price pressures - infrastructure, access and
resources - are areas that governments really don't want
to get involved in any more. Major reform of
agriculture and food production is a forlorn hope,

The horse has bolted on proper planning and housing.

So the best we can do as Trioli points out:

"As I queue at the expensive IGA, I grit my teeth and
pay my money, and note with no chagrin as I leave the
supermarket, that the air I breathe is clean and no
bombs fall."

cont'd ...

Enjoy your chocolates everyone, and the
Easter break.

Take care.

Dear Belly

The irony is we owe our AAA rating to Communist China - not to Gillard's government.

"Ah yes, Communist China, and one day we will all be communist - just as I had planned" says a former alcoholic Labor leader as he takes another swig of gin.

I will not keep you blokes long cartoon time soon on the telly.
45% any one claiming the tax did that needs a new sand box to play in.
Housing remains free market driven by market forces.
Rechtub ? you my mate are a mystery to me, just as much as your snags may have been in your shops.
Have a good cry fellas and wait till your false Gods feet of clay show up before his first 3 months in office.

Lexi my sweet, the fact that others have got into a worse pickle than us is no reason to crow. All that means is that this dreadful government has not been in power for as long as theirs. Give these twits another term, & they will win the race to the worst economy in the western world.

Sweetie you have to stop believing this garbage you read in lefty rags. You tend to believe the spin.

It is some time since even the government paid witchdoctor for global warming said "It ain't gunna rain no more". Drought is now just a winter thing, & seasons have returned to normal. That means I still can't drive to my bottom paddock yet this year, just like the old days.

All records show that bad weather is much reduced. The bad weather you are reading about is all in their computers. Even the insurance industry admit that we have had less than average bad weather events. Cyclones for example, are way down, world wide.

Sony all you are telling me is that all my neighbours are, like me, poorer than they were before Gillard. Doesn't make me happy, just pi55ed off for them too.

Oh & no, lower valuation doesn't reduce your rates individual, unless you are one of just a few. Assuming it's general, as it is around here, the council will just strike a higher rate in the dollar. How else could they pay all those useless planners, & other drones.

Julia & co have got the public so frightened that no one is buying houses. The value of my property is great in comparison. Our fool planners are not permitting any more 20, or even 10 acre blocks, so we have very high demand, for properties like mine, from horse people.

The ones I feel really sorry for are acreage owners of lovely new homes. They can't get within $100,000 of what they paid just a couple of years ago. Many are now in negative equity, so can't afford to sell, when changed circumstances really require them to

sonofgloin, THAT'S GOLD!

Lexi...The Northern tropics are getting wetter.

I just love it when some goose says, it's the hottest.......day/month since 1854.

Gee, I wonder what caused that record to be set.

Now on the other hand, if we could sell our coal overseas, then somehow stop the wind from coming our way (powered by renewable energy of cause) then perhaps we could stop pissing into the fan, so as to say.

Now as for your debate, yep, let's go, but let's also do a similar Analyses WITHOUT MINING and the thousands of support jobs it creates.

As for debt being low, it's like saying three years ago I owned my 2 million dollar house, but now I owe $300,000 in borrowings, but I'm in no worse shape.

Imdi....If land gets devalued do the rates follow suit ?
Not noticeably, as the ratable value on your land is only a portion of your over all rates.

I also understand it's averaged over three years or so. Besides, unimproved values mean very little, as the only thing that adjusts your value, other than an event, is supply and demand.

sonofgloin, thanks for the laughs, I sure hope you're a Queenslander, cause I'd love to share a beer with you, especially when I need a good belly laugh. No pun intended

Hasbeen, dear heart, the land and housing where I live has gone UP in price, and we have never been better off financially than we are now.

Maybe you are living in the wrong area?

Just what do you think will change when the bumbling Abbott gets his hands on the top job?
Nothing....

One lot in Canberra is just as bad as the other.

<< I doubled over with laughter at your comment:
“Labor is more likely to move in this direction than the other mob.” >>

So pleased to be of entertainment value, dear Soggy!

<< What direction Luddy? >>

A very different direction to what they are now going in. A direction that Bob Carr would like Labor to move towards. A direction that Gillard has said that she supports: “a sustainable Australia, not a big Australia”.

Yes Labor’s direction has been shirthouse for years. And now they are set to be totally crunched at the next election. So they’ve got every motivation to embrace a shift towards a stable population and an economy that doesn’t have to be forever rapidly growing in order to deliver real improvements across the whole country instead of duplicating services and infrastructure for ever-more people, while the overall quality of these services and infrastructure declines.

Labor is definitely more likely to move in this direction. There is not the slightest hint of this ESSENTIAL political move with Abbott, Turnbull nor anyone else in the other mob.

Suse, you live in Perth IIRC. What do you think will happen to those land/house prices when the Chinese demand for our resources declines, as it will over the next year or two and all those cashed up young blokes are out of work? Have a look at what's happened in the Newcastle region if you're not sure.

Nationally, house sales are at their lowest volume since 1996 (interest rates at about 10% then and population a couple of million smaller) and that isn't going to recover any time soon. Don't rely on the house to top up your super.

I'd normally agree with your last point, but the Gillard/Swan/Conroy rabble is so appalling it's hard to see how anything could approach it as an example of how not to run a Government.

I don't live in Perth now Antiseptic, although I did live there when we bought our first house , and the interest rate then was 17%! Labor was in power then too.

I agree we are lucky in WA for the most part, but I am not as pessimistic about the future here as others seem to be.

I believe house prices are on the rise again now, and I would far more trust housing than superannuation for my future.

I doubt whether the current political party in power will make one iota of difference either....

Suse, I don't give a damn about house prices personally. When you own everything, owe nothing, these things can't hurt you. If my value goes down, so will anything I might want to change to, so I'm pretty safe. The actual dollar value is immaterial, it's only the differential that is important.

What I worry about is a kid with a recently built new home, with a $100,000 equity that could easily be wiped out the way we are going.

I also fear for the 2 now in the market. Anyone buying now could very easily be buying near the top, [just a little over actually], & could easily fall into negative equity the way I see Oz heading.

I would not like to be buying in Perth right now, as I believe prices there have the greatest down side of anywhere in Oz. As a mining management based city it is very vulnerable. I see a repeat of Lithgow NSW as very possible, there.

Lithgow had coal mining & manufacturing based on the coal energy. When the underground mining became uncompetitive, the mines & industry dried up, so did the work. People live there only because good quality homes are very cheap, so it is now a welfare town.

Yes, I worry about the young people buying houses now too Hasbeen, just as my parents worried about me buying one years ago, when the interest rates were 17%.

The old will always worry about the young.

I wish I was like you though, and owned everything, and owed nothing : )

Just back from 2 weeks with my "family" in the Pacific. They have no problems with interest rates, don't have a bank account, live in a house most of us wouldn't. Have no problem with value as its clean and keeps the rain and wind out, priceless. As they don't have a car the price of petrol isn't a problem. My "family" do have their problems, health care, long way for a major op for one, and schooling for the kids is another, only have a local primary school. Foods good, no one is going hungry, don't know its dollar value but the land and sea gives plenty. Kids are happy and all the "family" are well. Makes for a reality check for us. The truth is they don't need much from us and at the same time can teach us a few things as well.

Dear Paul1405,

Welcome to modernity!

But doesn't it make you happy to know that your life has been spent keeping yourself clothed, fed, housed and educated in order to make yourself available to work for an employer? And now you are preparing your children to follow in your footsteps. Ah yes, the marvels of social reproduction.

Suze....Just what do you think will change when the bumbling Abbott gets his hands on the top job?
Nothing....

Actually, if nothing happens we will be better off, because it's only when labor has a brain wave, that it turns into more of a brain fart, once they try to implement the idea.

I wish I was like you though, and owned everything, and owed nothing : )
Suseonline,
Don't take so much & you won't owe.

Rehctub, Suse is right, an LNP government won't be able to do much about the economic situation.
The problem is that our economic bubble has been created by the mobilisation of women into work, creating a vast increase in consumerism, including on durables such as housing and on services such as childcare, home maintenance, etc. and there is no more growth to be had from that direction.

Google has an excellent and comprehensive set of graphs based on world bank data (just google "GDP Australia" and all will be revealed) that show the problem very well.

Another part of the problem is that there is a vast divide between two-income professional families and single income families, especially where the income-earner is in a non-professional role. The largest single predictor of a family in poverty is having only one income earner and single-income families are virtually locked out of owning a home without some kind of assistance from extended family. Part of that is down to Howard-era subsidy getting people into housing earlier than their normal savings pattern would have allowed it, but the biggest factor is those two-income families being prepared to spend more.

Unless Hockey/Abbott can find some way to break our economic dependence on consumerism the problem will just get worse, especially once the Chinese domestic development bubble bursts, since India is not likely to come on stream in a big way for a decade or two.

Anyone have any good ideas about how to do that?

Lexi>> "So the best we can do as Trioli points out:

As I queue at the expensive IGA, I grit my teeth and
pay my money, and note with no chagrin as I leave the
supermarket, that the air I breathe is clean and no
bombs fall."<<

Easter greetings Lexi, I am just back from mass and a carbon copy recital of the message from our dear but theistically misguided priest, I swear the sermon is word for word from last year. Rebirth, re growth and hope for the future were the themes, something our nation is looking forward to I thought to myself as I listened.

Whether we get diligent and competent management with the Coalition or not, we need a change. Gough’s govt romped in because the electorate needed social change, a new vibe if you will, as did Kev’s…neither got in because the place was being totally mismanaged…but that is the reason we need change now.

Lexi I understand what the concept of “appreciation” is. Appreciation of what we have rather than coveting what we don’t. The adage of “I cried that I had no shoes until I met the man with no feet” has always resounded in me. But for all we have in this country, we have a load less than we had six short years ago.

As an example of how hollow both sides are I give you this rubbish:

>>We want to be the food bowl of Asia<<…Gillard
>>I want to develop the North for industry and agriculture<<….Abbott

These two imbeciles over look one salient point….we are a net importer of food and goods because without protection policies no matter what we produce, ….you can make or grow it, process it, package it, ship it across the world, and it is still cheaper than home produced products. But in saying all that I still go by track record, huge deficits left by the previous two Labor governments were retired by the Coalition, they get my vote for that reason alone.

Suse posts, "I wish I was like you though, and owned everything, and owed nothing." No you don't kiddo, being in my position, when you didn't have rich parents, means you're too damn old. Much rather be younger & poorer, [& cuter like you & Lexi], even in a difficult financial period.

It can be a strain some times, but getting financially comfortable is a journey worth taking, there's plenty of fun along the way

Suseonline>> just as my parents worried about me buying one years ago, when the interest rates were 17%.<<

Suse I remember that. I purchased my first home at just over 10% and six months later it zoomed to 18% and hung around for ten bloody years. We learned to love spag bol as a family staple around that time.

Ludwig>> Yes Labor’s direction has been shirthouse for years. And now they are set to be totally crunched at the next election. So they’ve got every motivation to embrace a shift towards a stable population and an economy that doesn’t have to be forever rapidly growing in order to deliver real improvements across the whole country instead of duplicating services and infrastructure for ever-more people, while the overall quality of these services and infrastructure declines.<<

God Luddy, Labor are failures, we are not talking ideologies, we are talking about competency. You have it about face regarding your comment “Yes Labor’s direction has been shirthouse for years,” their policy direction has not been shithouse….implementation has.

AI voted for Kev because of the promised raft of social reform policies that would see the corporations that monopolize our food and fuel play fair …Grocery Watch, Fuel Watch…..failures.

Housing for our first Aussies, super clinics, technical learning centers for our young….failures…..no housing, no clinics, and our kids are the least literate in the English speaking nations.

The Billion dollar bats….failure….4 kids dead, a billion paid for work not done, electrical fires and an inspection of every roof fitted.

The BER….failure…..Vergolas that cost $70k last year cost the BER $190k, demountable buildings without airconditioning cost half a million dollars, self managed Catholic and private schools get twice the infrastructure for the same money.

National Cable network….failure…. More than three years on it had passed just one third of 1 per cent of Australias homes and businesses.
The rollout has so far chewed up $2.832 billion, more than $900 million had vapourised in three years of accumulated losses. (In 2011-12 alone, NBN Co lost $520m.)

Nah Luddy, these clowns are incompetent, Swans a cretin, Gillard lies…..

Yes Paul, I spent some years up there myself. It looks good at a quick glance, but has some very big down sides.

A mate of mine died a few years back, from damage caused by a minor heart attack. A day to get to any type of medical treatment, & 3 to get to Cairns, for what he needed, was too much. Too late by then, the damage was done. He struggled on for some months but no more.

I've had 3 heart attacks, worse than his, & although damaged a little, it is not too bad. He & his wife wanted me to marry her sister, & stay. I'd be dead now.

With him gone Google earth shows me the atoll airstrip is back to bush as is most of the plantation. You can bet the power is gone, the 2 way radio, probably the school, & the law. Without much copra the small ships won't be coming, just a government ship once a year or so, No way to call for help, & no supplies coming in, not even batteries for your radio.

The life style would still have much to offer, but life would be shorter & painful for some.

Mr. O no one asks you to look good, street sweepers don't need suits. Those islanders are welcoming people, they'd let you in, provided you pulled your weight.

Hell I'll even pay your fare, it would be cheaper than feeding clothing & housing you, while you get another couple of useless letters after your name.

Paul an interesting sidelight on that housing we wouldn't live in. More fool us.

Many of the wealthy locals around Rabaul, where I new a few, had European style houses of fibro & tin out front, for prestige value, but they were too smart to live in the things.

They had another local style house of local materials out the back, where they lived. In that climate local material builds a much cooler, more comfortable home, & they know it.

I knew a few single blokes who lived in "bush" houses by intelligent choice. I never found a European lady living in one by choice. They were too worried by the thought of possible bugs in the thatch or woven fond matting. It was the thought, not the reality that got them.

Dear Hasbeen,

Thanks for the offer of a fare but I think your money would be better spent on improving your education.

& they weren't all that new when I knew them.

He's in denial Lexi, he's in denial.

Soggy, methinks that there is an inherent contradiction in your assertion that Labor has had good policies but has been incompetent in delivering them!

Part of having good policies is to be able to make then count for something. Otherwise they have to be called bad policies, surely!

Pertaining to the examples you give, you could say that they’ve had the right ideals or philosophy, up to a point. But they’ve very much had the wrong philosophy at the same time, in a much bigger way: the way of constantly expanding the population and hence the demand for goods, services, infrastructure, water and everything else.

<< Nah Luddy, these clowns are incompetent, Swans a cretin, Gillard lies….>>

Alright, so how do you think they would go with a couple of definitely more intelligent and sustainability-attuned people at the helm, in the form of Bob Carr and Kelvin Thomson?

So what of the Opposition? How do you think their policies and ability to implement them compare with Labor?

How do they potentially compare to a new Labor team with a sustainability paradigm at its core?

......Part of that is down to Howard-era subsidy getting people into housing earlier than their normal savings pattern would have allowed it, but the biggest factor is those two-income families being prepared to spend more.

Anti, what a load of rubbish.

Since Howard introduced then first home owners grant (which shoukd have been a loan by the way), the vast majorities of properties purchased back in 2000-2002 have increased at least 3 fold.

Ludwig, moving forward is not so much up to governments, but more so corporations, however to do so, the one thing they need more than anything, is confidence, and that is one thing labor took an axe to once in power.

Why anyone would disrupt business while the global economy was in melt down defies logic.

However, if big business is confident, they will invest and create growth for medium to small business, you know, much the way Howard did.

History is hard to discredit.

" the vast majorities of properties purchased back in 2000-2002 have increased at least 3 fold."

And why do you think that is, Rehctub?

The average house cost approximately 4x median income 20 years ago and now it costs at least 6x. How much have your sausages gone up relative to income in that period?

The simple fact is that the house prices have gone up because two-income families can afford to spend more and the proportion of families with two full-time incomes increased during that period. They are now flat-lining because the proportion of families with two full-time incomes has stopped increasing.

That may be unpalatable, but it's factual, unlike your worship at the altar of Howard.

<< Ludwig, moving forward is not so much up to governments, but more so corporations, however to do so, the one thing they need more than anything, is confidence, and that is one thing labor took an axe to once in power. >>

Rechtub, wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could rely on corporations to be good corporate citizens who consider the future of our country as much as they consider their shareholders, their own enormous salaries (for those who make the big decisions) and their maximised continuous expansion and increase in profits.

But we can’t expect them to do that. It is totally the role of government to pull them into line and make sure that they are not just totally self-centred bad corporate citizens.

So, moving forward is most definitely up to government.

Yes, businesses need confidence in government. But that doesn’t mean confidence that the government will allow them virtual open slather to do what they like, it means confidence in a government that elucidates the guidelines, laws and parameters and then upholds them at face value and doesn’t tamper with them other than to perhaps tweak and refine them a bit.

Hasbeen, about the housing not such a big problem, build most of them out of concrete blocks, an iron or traditional roof and shutters on the windows, stand up to most blows, Heath services are the biggest problem with the 'district nurse' number one when it comes to health, with help from other nurses at times he or she can get a lot done, preventive medicine for the kids and health checks for everyone. One problem is teeth, kids love the western sweets. School teacher is fantastic she with her 2 local aids do a terrific job, always in need of exercise books and things like that, get some things from the government, but never seems to arrive on time with the "Island Trader" The local 'shop' could do with a boost, don't seem to carry enough stock. I want one of my family to take it over, put another 6 foot on the building and increase the stock and range, but I leave all decisions up to the family, they know best.

Ludwig>> Part of having good policies is to be able to make then count for something. Otherwise they have to be called bad policies, surely!<<
I was looking for positive social reforms as my choices example. We got the talk but no outcomes, just failures. So a positive policy that fails is not rubbish, in Labors case it was the under graduate style failed implementation.

Ludwig>>Alright, so how do you think they would go with a couple of definitely more intelligent and sustainability-attuned people at the helm, in the form of Bob Carr and Kelvin Thomson?<<
Luddy it seems the “more intelligent and sustainability-attuned people” have had no bearing in the previous six years….why would it change?

Ludwig>> So what of the Opposition? How do you think their policies and ability to implement them compare with Labor?<<
Again I can only relate to track records…the Coalition are better fiscal managers. What they are going to do with a RECORD $200 Billion deficit….who knows.

Ludwig>> How do they potentially compare to a new Labor team with a sustainability paradigm at its core?<<
Which new Labor team with a sustainability paradigm at its core?

Dear SOG,

The Coalition are better fiscal managers?
Says who - John Howard, Peter Costello,
or Tony Abbott? Victorians, Queenslanders,
and voters in NSW certainly wouldn't agree
with that.

Let's have a debate on the economy but let's
make sure we stick to the facts. Tony Abbott
has done nothing to establish his or his
party's economic credentials. He seems content to
simply coast along on what he sees as the public
perception that the Coalition is more competent
at economic management than Labor.

The Coaltion as commentaros have pointed out -
"Had the fortune to hold office in good economic
times - especially from 1996 to 2007 when the Howard
government enjoyed the dividends of the Hawke-Keating
economic reforms and when the world economy was
enjoying a long speculative-driven boom. Good luck,
perhaps, but not good management."

Lexi my sweet, history says they are better managers. Every Labor government since Menzies has stuffed the economy & borrowed far too much to buy votes.

I get thoroughly sick of hearing about how good Hawke & Keating were as managers. The only real test is how much debt did they leave?

I think many of their reforms are coming back right now to bite us. Much of the offshoring going on can be laid right at the door of their reforms.

Do you really forget "the recession we had to have". Like hell we did, that was Keating's reforms, & poor management, some too early, some too late & much just wrong.

Do you remember 17% interest on your home loan? The bloody idiot Keating with his hands on the leavers should have been hung for that stuff up. It was not just thousands whose lives were stuffed by that fool & his interest rates, it was hundreds of thousands.

Paul on a more pleasant note, how do the locals handle the one talk system these days? When I was there it made it impossible for anyone to run any business in their own village, or even one talk area.

Has that broken down, & if so, how does that effect life in more remote parts

Afternoon Lexi, remember that I am a social democrat so neither side of politics suit me at present.

Malcolm Frasier retired Goughs debt by not spending. John Howard sold off our gold reserves at basement prices, so I know how he retired the Hawke /Keating debt. What I can’t fathom is how Hawke/Keating could sell off our Commonwealth bank and have a budget deficit. Another thing I cannot fathom is why Gough cut import tariffs by 25 percent in 1973, so in 1974 saw an increase in imports of 30 percent and a $1.5 billion increase in the trade deficit.

Lexi I am voting for the Coalition. Labor are hopeless, I haven’t know who Labor is from Goughs days. This current lot, highest tax receipts in history and they are broke. Highest Commonwealth debt in history. We pay 2 fully staffed teaching hospitals every month in interest. This Labor is tragic and so abundantly self serving…they gotta go. My belle if because of political alignments you cannot see the forest for the misogynistic trees…so be it.

Dear SOG,

We should all vote for whoever we feel will
provide our nation with the best possible economic
resilience in the future. Who will make
Australia more productive and more competitive
and who will increase our capacity to find new ways of
doing business and build a modern economy based on
advanced skills and technologies.

If you believe that the Coalition can do all that -
Fair enough. I don't!

See you on another thread.

Ludwig, the MRRT is the biggest rocket any modern day government has ever put into big business confidence.

These businesses spent billions on exploration, started mining, then had the goal posts shifted.

That is a prime lesson on how to damage businesses confidence.

Of cause now we all loose, as they (big business) are now starting to stop the risk taking until profits improve.

Yep, this mob sure are clever.

"We should all vote for whoever we feel will
provide our nation with the best possible economic
resilience in the future. Who will make
Australia more productive and more competitive....yuda, yuda, yuda.
Lexi, I thought I might vote for the party that espouses a few noble principles for myself and my fellow Australians, what a novel idea. A party, as the Americans would put it, of liberty, equality, and fraternity. A party that would give us a government that is both just and compassionate towards the weak and disadvantaged in our society, a government for all Australians. A party that believes, first and foremost that we do indeed live in a community of human beings and not merely a money driven economy.
If at the end of the day a government can claim no more than to have left an economic surplus, but at the same time leaves an unjust and divided Australia, then such a government, in my view has failed the Australian people miserably.

<< I was looking for positive social reforms as my choices example. We got the talk but no outcomes, just failures. >>

Agreed Soggy. But let’s be careful. What would the Libs have done? Would they have attempted to deliver similar good ideas and make them into effective policies? Would they have been significantly more successful if they had?

I can’t see that they would have been any better or will be in the future.

It would appear that Labor would be in a much better position if they’d sat on their hands and not attempted anything of any note. Then the electorate would probably choose them at the next election instead of a policyless don’t-know-what-we-might-be-gettng-ourselves-in-for-if-we-vote-for-them Lib mob!

Perhaps we should be voting for the party that has had good ideas and tried to implement them, no matter how badly… because the other mob really do look a whole lot less likely to do anything useful.

<< Luddy it seems the “more intelligent and sustainability-attuned people” have had no bearing in the previous six years….why would it change? >>

Soggy, what’s with ‘six years’ bit? Sustainability-attuned people have NEVER had any bearing on Australian politics!

Why would it change? Um… because it HAS to … sooner or later!

<< Again I can only relate to track records…the Coalition are better fiscal managers >>

Not too sure about that, as Lexi points out. But even if they are, there’s a whole lot more to good governance than that!

<< Which new Labor team with a sustainability paradigm at its core? >>

POTENTIALLY one led by Carr and/or Thomson…. or perhaps even Gillard if she’d just honour her assertion that she believes in a sustainable Australia, not a big Australia.

Paul strangely pie in the sky noble principles, attempted by twits gets you into a bankrupt situation, where you can do nothing but survive. Time to try the possible about now.

Luddy this is a description of your love affair with that idiot Carr. He is totally incapable of organising that fabled piss up in a brewery. Any management by him would leave us open to a Cyprus type rescue. Sustainability &/or grandiose noble principles are only available from a situation of sound financial backing. IE money in the bank.

I can't believe that so many fools cheered Julia's bull dust about a disability insurance scheme, starting only after she knows she'll be chucked out on her ear. That, the schools rubbish, & the NBN are just not possible. I am amazed that people who think they are smart can let her get away with it.

Not only is she conning the faithful, but is promising a pile of rubbish to the disabled. Better to know you had better start doing more for yourself, than sit expectantly on your butt, believing the fairy god mother is coming loaded with gold. Only a real bitch could do that to people.

So folks forget the cavalry, they ain't coming. We are going to have to dig ourselves out of this mess, & no one left standing in Labor knows what a shovel is, let alone how to use one.

Like the Irish labourer, left to dig a hole. When the boss comes back there is no hole. Paddy's excuse, he couldn't find the starter handle to start the shovel. That's Labor today.

Hazza, your comprehensive negativity towards Carr is unfounded.

Have a read of this: and get a handle on all the GOOD THINGS he did as NSW Premier and why he was voted back in a whole series of times and became their longest-serving leader: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carr

And please reconsider your total opposition to the achievement of a sustainability paradigm. We simply MUST do this sooner or later. Obviously the sooner the better.

I think you’ll find that a genuine sustainability agenda would concur very well with most of your wishes.

You don’t really understand what sustainability means. Well, I am trying to discuss that with you on the other thread, but you won’t be drawn into responding after having drawn me into answering a whole series of your questions. I do find that a tad strange.

The problem we all have is that no party is prepared to face up to
our energy problem that a number of their members are well aware about.
I seriously doubt that Labour could manage the situation once everyone
is aware of the problem and at present the Lib/Nats don't want to know.

My concern is that before it hits the fan, the political cycle will
come around to Labour again. I do not think a government so completely
controlled from outside could manage a situation like Egypt's.

Martin Ferguson and Barnaby Joyce are the only ones that acknowledge
our energy problem as real and needing attention.
One Liberal member I have met thinks it is a problem that something
will turn up to fix or there will be a technical fix.
The closing of our refineries just make things more dangerous.

On the NBN, while fibre is definitely the best solution technically
because radio spectrum should not be used unless necessary.
However the trend is to radio for phones and the internet to the
extent that in the US and here the mobile only homes will soon be the majority.

Alternative energy will be an absolute necessity in the future but I
suspect that wind farms will never be a permanent solution.
Solar would be part of the solution if storage techniques are ever
developed, but we cannot afford to take the risk and await that solution.

Hot Rocks geothermal and nuclear are the only possible solutions
that I can see as being real goers. Even hot rocks have not yet
solved all problems.

Can any of you see the Labour party being able maneuver the country
through that very complex transition to a new energy regime ?

The only thing that I can see going for Bob Carr is that he was
against Sydney getting any bigger.

Lexi,
I think you may have it wrong about our GDP to debt ratio.
An article I read, and I wish I could remember the details, pointed
out that when you adjust the GDP value for factors that are not
normally taken into account the ratio is much worse. It was something
to do with such a large part of our economy is in mining exports
that it distorts the figures.
However our economy has to work internally.

Hasbeen, I think here in Sydney house prices has risen but only slightly.
There does not seem to be any big rush going on. I think everyone has
closed their purses tightly.

When we started out on this life together we made a resolution not
to borrow for anything, except the house itself.
We moved in with a bed, a kitchen table and chairs and that was it.
We had a borrowed 10 inch TV set. We figured that while we started
behind others we soon caught up because we were not paying interest.
I still owe nothing to anybody and have money in the bank.
We have reasonably good health so it does not matter much to us who is in power.
It can be done and our sons have repeated the exercise.

Dear Bazz,

Papa did the same. He did not believe in credit.
He only bought things when he could afford to pay for
them. My husband's father did the same. My husband and
I own our own home and we have no debts. It took
two of us working full-time to achieve that. Our home
has gone up in price - dramatically so.
We can't complain. We've figured out that hopefully when
the time and the need comes the sale of our home will
take care of us in our old age. It just may cover the
costs of high care for us both. Fingers-crossed that
the prices of nursing homes won't sky-rocket out of all
control. Our children are doing well - we don't have
to worry too much about them.

We're lucky in this country. Call me Pollyanna - I don't
mind. I am grateful that no matter what governments we've
had - we haven't really had to suffer badly - as
our neighbours and other countries have had to do
around the globe. Perhaps we should all count our blessings
and not tempt fate.

OK Luddy, you've convinced. Carr is much worse than I thought.

Give me what you see as sustainability so we can really talk. But if it includes the Murry Darling madness, & wild rivers, perhaps don't bother. That rubbish is pipe dream ideology not sustainability.

Bazz I'm with you. We started life together & had our first child living on the yacht. We moved ashore in 4 garbage bags, & a sail bag, no room on a yacht for ports.

An outdoor picnic table & stools was our dining suite, & much of our stuff is quality, but was aquired second hand 25+ years ago & refurbished. I did buy a water bed 28 years ago, I needed it due to a back injury from my navy days. It is on its 3Rd water bladder, 4Th heater, & in it's 6Th house, but is still the "NEW" bed.

I don't know if house prices have dropped that much, but the only ones selling are the fire sale types, at prices way down. Most people with new homes, on acreage just can't afford to sell at below the mortgage value, so don't. Unfortunately many have bought the acreage dream, but found an acreage nightmare of cost traveling time & maintenance work load. Many want out after just a couple of years.

On power, after careful study, & getting my math back to where I could understand the physics, I'm convinced that no matter how it started, the global warming story today is codswallop. A con now perpetuated by those with a lifetime invested in it, & politicians who don't want to look silly.

This means we should be into the latest coal fired power systems, & scrubbing all the expensive tomfoolery. The latest coal technology produces 15% to 20% less CO2 than our existing technology, so for those still believing, we can have an each way bet on cheaper power, & less CO2 than any alternative system, when including their gas fired back up requirement.

Continued

Continued

I have no doubt something will come along, from private enterprise, or possibly from China which will supersede coal, on price & availability some time.

The small self contained nuclear units used in US warships & subs have a great record. A couple of them for each town, & banks of them for cities makes more sense right now, than thousands of miles high tension power lines, where coal is not readily available, but the answer is probably something we have not yet dreamed of.

<< Give me what you see as sustainability so we can really talk >>

Haz: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5710#159091

Luddy, I read all that thread, & even the Wikipedia waffle referenced there, but I still have no idea of what it is supposed to mean.

You appear to have avoided my question re the Murray Darling plan. If this is what sustainability is about, count me out.

I agree totally about population limits, & that growth is unnecessary, although it would require a decade or more to handle the reduction in the building industry this would cause. Difficult or not, it would be worthwhile.

However much which I presume, possibly incorrectly, is involved in some peoples sustainability is neither good, nor advantageous to anything.

We are always going to need fuel, & coal & nuclear are the only current intelligent sources of electricity.

We are going to need transport, & even as a horse breeder, I must admit that will require oil gas or methane clathrate. Personally I don't give a damn which, but if sustainability can't include this, it is doomed.

I think all too often the rat bag fringe jump on sustainability as a stick to hit out at modern technology. People talking sustainability jump on the global warming band wagon, when it's wheels are falling off, faster than the lefties & the ABC can put them back.

Too many try to use sustainability to support their own barrow.

So mate, if you want to stop the world, & make everyone get off, bl00dly say so. Stop beating about the bush, & tell everyone the details. I really want to know. Without an honest statement of what it really entails, you won’t get support from any but those with an agenda.

<< Luddy, I read all that thread, & even the Wikipedia waffle referenced there, but I still have no idea of what it is supposed to mean. >>

D’Oh Hazza, you’re not that dumb!!

<< I agree totally about population limits…. >>

Good!

You said something similar in response to me nearly seven years ago (July 06):

<< Ludwig, you are dead right about population growth, its got to be stopped,in SEQ, before it consumes the entire state wealth >> http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4604#45445

I find it very hard indeed to believe that you have this basic agreement with me but haven’t been able to understand what my main concerns are re sustainability despite the copious exchanges we have had over the last long seven years!

You know in your heart that a balancing of supply and demand is essential and that continuously increasing demand for everything is madness. And you know that this fundamental state MUST be achieved and must be an ongoing permanent cornerstone of our society.

You ARE a sustainabilityist somewhere deep down beneath that terribly gruff and negative exterior! Or maybe it lurks just below the surface! So stop denying it!

Yes, the word ‘sustainability’ is misused. Just like ‘growth’, ‘environment’ and every other word of this sort that doesn’t have an absolutely clear-cut definition that is the same for everyone.

So what? I’m sure you have a very good idea of what I mean, and that’s all that matters here.

The Murray/Darling? There has been a gross overallocation of water, which needs to be clawed back. I’ll leave the extent, methodology and timeframe in which that happens to the experts.

It is a stark example of what happens when we overstep the mark – it becomes extremely difficult to recover, inevitably affects some people much more than others and meets with some pretty vehement opposition.

Our whole society is currently hooting towards a similar state of affairs. Let’s make sure it doesn’t get there!

BTW Haz, congrats on reaching 4000 posts on OLO!