It is wrong to assert that a small unrepresentative group of Muslim activists tried to Islamises a state primary school in Woking. The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to state funded Muslim schools. They are not extremists who want to change of ethos of those schools where Muslim children are in majority. It is the democratic right of every Muslim parent to see that their children receive balanced education, so that when their children grow up, they do not find themselves cut off from their cultural roots and linguistic skills. It is a question of common sense, humanity and reason that bilingual Muslim children must be educated in state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. The whole world believes that people who speak more than one language is a vital economic asset. Pupils who speak more than one language do not cause difficulties. It is the politicians and monolingual teachers who are the problems for bilingual pupils. Muslim school will help to cultivate the child into a healthy, fully flourishing individual with a passion for learning. There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies.

Muslim faith schools are more or less bilingual schools. Priority will be given to the teaching of Standard English, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages. All Muslim children will learn and be well versed in Standard English and Quranic Arabic and at the same time they will learn and be well versed in one of the community language to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. Majority of children will learn Urdu language because it is a lingua franca of the migrants from the sub-continent. And majority of British Muslims are from Pakistan and their national language is Urdu.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Muslim Academies,
I suppose it'll go over those australian heads as the boat people issue does.

Dear Iftikhar,

I'm not sure what the point is that you're trying to
make with this discussion? What has what happened
in the UK some time ago got to do with Australia?

As far as I'm
aware there are plenty of Muslim schools, especially
in NSW, and they are state and goveernment funded.
The only time that funding
was taken away from a Muslim school
was in the following case due to fraud:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/education/ofarrell-government-freezes-islamic-schools-funding/story-fn59nlz9-1226306619798

I am a bit wary of this thread, and a bit sorry it will bring comments just like individuals, no depth.
It too will hight a growing concern in the western world, about the separatism within Muslim community's in our country's.We should all note, previous threads such as this, developed in to some thoing far different.
I number my self as one of the concerned.
But want to highlight a view long held, it is not normally those Muslims, the educated Muslims that are of concern.
Unfortunately, in my strongly held view, one I am not ashamed of, uneducated Muslims that bring western concerns.

bring comments just like individuals, no depth.
Belly,
no depth ? it's already way above your head ! I did predict that in the first post.

.....it is the democratic right of every Muslim parent to see that their children receive balanced education,

Too right it is, simply go back home and attend any school they like.

You see there is one thing theses types seem to keep forgetting, and that this is Australia and we ARE NOT and DONT WANT TO BE a Muslim country.

It is simply wrong to assume any race can come here and change our ways, in order to accommodate their ways.

Now before you go off and call me racist, I have no problems with anyone wanting to move here and share this wonderful country.

Two conditions.

Contribute, and leave their baggage behind.

Afterall, we wouldn't get treated any differently in their country, assuming of cause we were accepted in the first place.

Q: What do they call a good looking Arab?

iftakhar,
LIke Lexi, I do not understand what you are talking about. If you are talking about a perceived problem with muslims getting kids educated in the UK, why post it on an Australian forum, it has nothing to do with us.

We have enough problems of our own, without going into the ins and outs of the UK education system. I do not want to know about what languages are taught in UK schools or who gets what funding.

If there is a problem that affects Australia, perhaps you should try again to explain what that is. English is the official language here and taught in schools. In high schools students can take some other languages as well if they choose.

Mr Opinion.
A: Asif..my mother told me that one.

Don't all schools here have to teach the National curriculum anyway?
Religious instruction and dress codes are also optional in this country.
I think most people would be happy if kids from Muslim families all went to their own community schools, that'd be something both my side and the wrong side could agree on right?.
Islam is good for low IQ Third Worlders, it calms them down, gives them a focus and a structured life plus charity when they need it and plenty of wars to thin out the ranks every now and then. If all those wicked young Lebanese hoods from Blacktown were truly devout they'd be in beard and sandals sitting around philosophisng all day, overseas fighting the Infidel or running some productive enterprise of their own instead of dealing drugs and shooting at each other.

Be careful what you wish for Jay Of Melbourne, Some of them are running enterprises of their own. The problem is they mostly do that as well as they run a society.

My son was unlucky enough to go to a tyre outlet owned by one of them. Fortunately it was a franchise of a large company.

He bought & had fitted some unidirectional, expensive high quality tyres promoted by the group.

Unfortunately they were so incompetent they fitted the tyres the wrong way round. Rather than having superior wet performance they would have been death traps on very wet roads.

He took the car back & requested the tyres be fitted correctly, only to be effectively told to go jump in the lake by the owner. It was only then he discovered the ownership.

Fortunately the Franchiser did not like their reputation trashed, & forced the owner to correct their mistake, & give a 20% discount for the hassles involved. Better to avoid their enterprises I think.

Be careful because I think this author is fishing.
I think for other than views about this subject.
Indy give your room mate a pat on the back, for putting thatpost together for you!

People,

This person is has posted this same piece on nearly 70 odd forums including the following.

www.sunniforum.com › Forum › General Forums › General Islam
www.ummah.com › Forum › Main › Ummah Lounge
www.houseofpolitics.com › Social Discussions › Education Policies
www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/.../10107946.Sat_results_improve_...
www.talkswindon.org › Recent Posts
afghanforum.afghansite.com › ... › Politics & World News
www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/.../10136536.Local_Muslims_raise_m...
forums.alkauthar.org › ... › News & Announcements
disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=148202;article...;title...

There is no way they can keep track of nor respond to anything others post in reply.

So why do it? Obviously to raise the rankings of his own website. To me this is probably an abuse of forums such as this which might be forgiven if there was more interaction from the author, but as this is unlikely it might be worth rethinking including future contributions from him to OLO, even in the quite open General section.

Dear csteele,

Thank You for pointing this out to us.

I went into the author's posting history
on this Forum - and you're right. He does
not interact at all. He merely starts
the discussion with an opening post and
then he disappears. It seems that he's
obsessed with Muslim Schools as a topic.
I shan't be wasting my time any further.
But I guess that answers my question as
to what his point was in starting this
discussion.

Why not simply omit state funding for non-public schools? Those who wish to send their children to non-public schools can pay for that choice. I object to my tax dollar used to support religious indoctrination in any religion. I also think it is sad that children are segregated by religion. It creates a divisive society. Children of different faiths and of none can grow up together, learn together and work together.

If humans would just evolve, we wouldn’t need religion and the trouble it generates. Then again, the simplest things are just manageable by those who need them:)
Would any religious member like a banana?..I’ve just opened a new on line fruit shop, and all are welcome:)
Still in the dark ages, aren’t we…..oh dear.

PLANET

NO MADRASSES, EVER.

Dear davidf,

Indoctrination. It is an interesting and loaded word. Even phonetically, with the guttural Germanesque 'doct' and the subliminal homonymic; urination.

But I digress.

Your beef is with religious indoctrination, with which I sympathise entirely, but what about some of the more secular indoctrinations such as history e.g. ANZAC myths, or literary or artistic varieties?

For instance is the funding by us all of orchestras or ballet companies the result of indoctrination? Are the few with an intrinsic appreciation of these forms of art compelled to indoctrinate as many of the rest of the community so that they in turn are prepared to expend resources to maintain them? Is the supposedly lofty aim of taking the 'fine arts' to 'the masses' that much different to what the Catholic Church involves itself in?

Is the only difference that we regard indoctrination of the collective more acceptable than that of the cult?

Dear Jayb,

'NO MAD ASSES, EVER.'

Please excuse yourself.

csteel: but what about some of the more secular indoctrinations such as history e.g. ANZAC myths, or literary or artistic varieties?

The ANZAC myth, as you call it, is no Myth. But then cowards would never know.

I do agree with you on literary & artistic varieties though. I do take it that that also applies to the Heavy Metal & Rap varieties as well. Still, I do think that there is a place for Shakespeare & Marlow in the curriculum. Even if it is just to teach people about the nuances, beauty & complexity of the English language, as opposed to the garbled gibberish of Arabic.

Accepted, Mad Ass I may be, but I'm not a traitor.

As unwelcome as you may find it thanks from me too csteele.
The poster visits here , not overly often but this is not the first.
And I can report was here on line at the time of my last post here this morning.
Unsure of the reason, but think we need to understand fishing , for comments that can then be put up on other sites, proving nothing but it looks good to some.

Dear Jayb,

To me a traitor is someone hell bent on eroding what we have built in this country; a markedly tolerant, inclusive, accepting nation.

A coward is someone who continually uses the anonymity of the web to do so.

Now that we have that out of the way why are you back to your old tricks? I spoke of ANZAC myths and you dishonestly and with malice declared I viewed ANZAC as a myth. I do not.

I was however brought up with stories of the heroics of a man called Simpson and his donkey. This was a very strong theme returned to each ANZAC day through my childhood. I was told of his outstanding bravery, of the hundreds of lives he saved, of him ignoring the bullets and going where others refused to venture, of him being recommended for the VC which was denied because he was 'just' a stretcher bearer. However it was almost entirely a myth.

“A federal government inquiry has found that the legendary heroism of Simpson and his donkey is more myth than reality.”
http://www.theage.com.au/national/taken-for-a-ride-20130306-2fli4.html#ixzz2OWWxzTCi

Now you may choose to continue to believe in this myth, I do not.

Wouldn't a coward be someone who feels the need, despite evidence to the contrary, to use myths to beef up the considerable deeds of our service men.

The real Simpson was obviously a larrikin but I feel sure he was not the type to have wanted to cloak himself in false glory. He likely would rightly regard this a traitorous to his fallen comrades.

I wonder what he would have thought of you?

See, if you want to come in here screaming about 'MADRASSES' then start slinging 'coward' and 'traitor' about I will bite back and we can do it all day long. It is not constructive and it is guaranteed to get stale pretty quickly.

How about parking the reactionary verbosity for a bit and engaging in a normal conversation.

Dear Belly,

Not unwelcome at all.

Dear csteele,

I agree with you. Funding for the arts and for sports is a questionable activity. Funding in the schools for art and sport informs children of choices that they make as an adult. I like Shakespeare and classical music, but I see absolutely no reason that the general taxpayer should fund my amusements. I wrote a piece of fiction. When it was published I saw in the book that it was funded by both the Australian Council for the Arts and the Victorian Council for the Arts. My fiction was an ego trip on my part, and most Australians who paid for it will not be reading it. They should not have paid for it.

Funding for health, police and other services used by the general public is legitimate. However, people should make their own choices in such activity as religion, the arts and sport without tax money.

csteel: I spoke of ANZAC myths and you dishonestly and with malice declared I viewed ANZAC as a myth. I do not.

What about some of the more secular indoctrinations such as history e.g. ANZAC myths,

Then in a further post:
This was a very strong theme returned to each ANZAC day through my childhood. I was told of his outstanding bravery, of the hundreds of lives he saved, of him ignoring the bullets and going where others refused to venture,
I have no doubt that this happened. Strangely, one does get rather blasé under fire. Having experiences the same.

This is one of the stories of Gallipoli. It is not the ANZAC myth. The ANZAC story encompasses all of the brave deeds of the soldiers of the ANZAC Corps during WW1, Covering Europe, Russia & the Middle East. A myth is something that, in part, is true, but has been embellished. What Simpson did, did happen. Beal, in his History, used Simpson as an example of the bravery of the Australian soldiers he was imbedded with at that time. Beal gave many examples & no doubt there many more he didn't write about. Stories told by the soldiers in their diaries that would go into the making of the ANZAC story. My Grandfather included. I have his diary. Whether you agree or not, these were brave men with little resources who made do with what they had on hand. They were all Hero’s who fought for the freedoms we enjoy today. They were not cowards. Thence the Legend.

Baker: He was a brave and tenacious soldier who gave his life doing his duty and supporting his mates - like thousands of others whose deeds were never acknowledged and are now long forgotten.

Now back to the subject, cont.

Cont.

Csteel: Wouldn't a coward be someone who feels the need, despite evidence to the contrary, to use myths to beef up the considerable deeds of our service men.

No. A coward is someone who would give up Australia’s freedoms to a pack of maniacal religious zealots because of some mistaken belief in their horrendous ideology.

Ifitkar: All Muslim children will learn and be well versed in Standard English and Quranic Arabic

In other words a MADRASS, csteel. Teaching Australian children to hate the infidel.

csteel: See, if you want to come in here screaming about 'MADRASSES' then start slinging 'coward' and 'traitor' about I will bite back and we can do it all day long.

It is you that is seemingly supporting the teaching of the barbaric Islamic Quoran in Australian schools. A subversive Book that promotes the take over of Australia & the Free World by violent means if they won't come easy. To me that is cowardly & traitorous.

A book that should be banned in Australia.

Jayb, Csteele,
The leadership of the country and the military during the WWI definitely were liberal and they did view their troops as good Christian soldiers, it's reasonable to state that "tolerance" and "inclusiveness" were widely held values at the time and therefore the true founding myths of that age.
People also can't seem to think this through and understand the nature of the regimes which the ANZACs stood against or realise that the soldiers themselves understood the distinction between Western Liberalism and the German, Austro Hungarian and Ottoman ways of governing. The tendency is to ascribe more or less the same value system to the both the Aussies and their enemies..which is bizarre to say the least but understandable given the amount of nonsense which the "Wrong side" put about.
Our great grandfathers were not "Horrible Racists", they didn't fight for "White Australia", they fought for classical Liberal values,for the British Empire model of society and against the Central European and Near Eastern model of society...heck a lot of them were even Socialists!

Dear Jayb,

I was going to thank you for dialling it back, then I read your second post.

Firstly you pontificate;

“This is one of the stories of Gallipoli. It is not the ANZAC myth.”

I never claimed it was “THE ANZAC myth” but that it was AN ANZAC myth. Do you need the difference to be explained to you? It was not a story, war stories are usually acknowledged as embellished. This has been portrayed as fact for almost my entire life. This was a myth. I am not afraid to regard it as such and if that means I am regarded as a coward by some ne’er-do-wells as yourself then so be it.

One of my great-grandfathers spent 6 months, mostly in delirium or a coma, in a French hospital after being gassed and severely wounded on the Western front. I remember as a kid putting my forearm in the groove ploughed deep in his back by an artillery shell. One of his sons was beheaded by the Japanese for daring to escape a second time knowing full well the consequences.

I have no need to be reminded of what so many Australians went through in our wars but perhaps you do. Many of them laid down their lives to fight fascism in Europe and North Africa. Yet here you are lock step with someone who is a self proclaimed friend of local Nazi loving fascist Nationalists and probably, if he were truthful about it, one himself. And on cue here he is to back you up.

That is how you choose to honour their memory.

Brilliant.

I am reminded of the following Blues Brother's scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouHkL7u9qLw

You my friend deliver the last line.

Dear davidf,

My apologies for getting diverted by pest control issues.

Sorry also if I have given the impression that I think there should be no government spending on the arts or sport. This is not what I believe at all. I think any government that is intent on serving the best interests of society at large would recognise distinct benefits in funding both sectors. Money devoted to supporting participation rates in sport may well be easily justified by an increase in the general health of the population and the consequent reduction in lifestyle diseases. And just think of where our film industry would be without government support.

Further I'm sure your book must have had a degree of merit, not only because I know the author but also because those bodies deemed it worthy of funding.

My reason for raising them was to try and tease out what is or isn't indoctrination. Is there acceptable indoctrination if so what does it look like? Is it only the unacceptable that is labelled indoctrination? Our military services involve themselves in high level indoctrination of their recruits, but we hardly ever call it that instead using the euphemism 'training'. Our political parties do the same although they call it 'informing'.

Can one be fully human without some form of indoctrination? I suspect not.

Dear csteele,

Funding for sport isn’t for the health of the general population. Funding the Olympics, Commonwealth games, the Institute of Sport, athletic venues for professional sports and similar outlays are for prestige, popular amusement and the production of elite athletes. The general population even has become couch potatoes watching the elite, professional athletes perform. If sports funding were for the health of the general population I would not object to it.

Literature, the visual arts, music and drama have produced greatness without public funding. Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Dickens, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Picasso, Michelangelo, Leonardo, George Eliot and other luminaries were supported by the general public, patrons, the church and other non-governmental sources. I don’t think government funding has resulted in anything better than the afore mentioned.

Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Dickens and George Eliot were all primarily funded by the general public who did a very good job at recognising artistic genius.

I did not object to indoctrination per se. Those who perform a function where indoctrination is necessary are to be indoctrinated.

However, I think the public schools are primarily to:

1. Prepare students for work or further education.
2. Help students to think critically and ask questions both for their personal development and their function as citizens in a democracy.
3. Learn about arts, sciences and ways to care for their minds and bodies.
4. Bring students in contact with students of other backgrounds so they can have a broader view and awareness of our cultural differences and similarities and are prepared to live together as adults.

I don’t think indoctrination has any place in education.

The US Supreme Court has found racial segregation brings inequality. I think the same is true for religious segregation. Religious schools are the choice of the parents as is religious training or indoctrination. For public school students such indoctrination if their parents feel it is necessary or desirable should be done by the parents or the parents' religious institution not by the public schools. If parents want religious indoctrination in a school that school should not be funded by the taxpaying public.

Csteele,
Eh? I thought I was repudiating Jayb's thesis, not backing him up, posts about race relations which assert that "Our ANZACS fought for.." are invariably wrong,they were NOT Nationalists in the sense that you're using the term. Believe me, I'm no friend of local "Fascists", they all hate me because I insist that they tell the truth about what sort of society we really have in this country and it's liberal roots.
The reason Fascism didn't take root in Australia is because most of it's initial demands were already everyday realities in Liberal democracies, these movements sprang from extremely dysfunctional and oppressive societies and both Fascism and National Socialism would eventually have liberalised had they matured over time.
To believe that "Our ANZACS" fought for "White Australia" is to accept the lies the Left tell about what sort of society they came from, there are two competing and contradictory mythos here.

Belly>> But want to highlight a view long held, it is not normally those Muslims, the educated Muslims that are of concern.
Unfortunately, in my strongly held view, one I am not ashamed of, uneducated Muslims that bring western concerns.<<

Long held view? Give me a break....who fed you that line sport. Have a peek at the inbeciles involved in 911...more than a few of them were uni students. Do you have any original thoughts tiger?

somofgloin as expected of you.
I think strongly as I said, and always have.
I am reluctant to assist the Author by turning this thread in to our usually long and heated one on this subject, not the intended one apparently about education.
To hate a whole group can not be seen surely, as sustainable.
My views are strongly against further Muslim migration.
Yet while I can more than make a case for ALL my views are we fish?
Do we need to expand this thread to yet again visit an issue we will have ample time after the next international event .

I have just read the whole thread again.
OF special note.
As well as the red neck mob trying to talk about other than the threads intent.
Note csteele as well as inferring Anzac Day, is a myth.
Also, who else of us? told of many posts on sites mostly for Muslims.
That fact, while I am now guilty of does what I was critical of, explains many past posts .
See 4 corners last night?
Note the lies, flowing as easy as water over a water fall.
Remember, one side uses them with permission, actually requests, from their holly book to lie to us.

Dear Jay of Melbourne,

You count as a comrade someone who goes by the nickname 'SussToTheJew' when he posts on a White Supremacist site and proudly sports a swastika as a screen saver. Further you were shown to have markedly embellished his account of his experiences in the Sydney riots.

I wouldn't have thought it leaves a hell of a lot left to be said.

Don't sweat it my friend. I enjoy you as our resident fascist/racist. When others seem determined to hold hands with you, you provide a mirror I can hold up to them and challenge their views. It is a way of circumventing the good Godwin on this forum.

That's all.

Dear Belly,

I am a sucker sometimes but here goes.

You said “I have just read the whole thread again.” well perhaps you would like to read the whole thing once more and tell me where I inferred ANZAC day was a Myth?

Further what exactly are you implying with the words “Also, who else of us? told of many posts on sites mostly for Muslims.”. I want to make sure that what I think you are saying is what you intended before I serve up a clip behind the ears.

csteel: tell me where I inferred ANZAC day was a Myth?
You didn’t. You inferred that ANZAC was a myth. Now you have added the word “day” thereby changing the argument. Strange, isn’t this what you have always accused us of all doing to you?

csteel: what exactly are you implying with the words “Also, who else of us? told of many posts on sites mostly for Muslims.”

Err! You did, “People, This person is has posted this same piece on nearly 70 odd forums including the following.

www.sunniforum.com › Forum › General Forums › General Islam
www.ummah.com › Forum › Main › Ummah Lounge
www.houseofpolitics.com › Social Discussions › Education Policies
www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/.../10107946.Sat_results_improve_...
www.talkswindon.org › Recent Posts
afghanforum.afghansite.com › ... › Politics & World News
www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/.../10136536.Local_Muslims_raise_m...
forums.alkauthar.org › ... › News & Announcements
disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=148202;article...;title...

Denial?

csteel: I have no need to be reminded of what so many Australians went through in our wars but perhaps you do.
No you don’t. Yes I march on ANZAC Day with 1R.A.R. in Brisbane.

csteel: Yet here you are lock step with someone who is a self proclaimed friend of local Nazi loving fascist Nationalists and probably, if he were truthful about it, one himself.

Now I fear I am being accused of being a Fascist, just because I would like to see one book, the “Quran” banned as a book in Australia.

A book that promotes;
The killing of infidels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGcgVSvgp6I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTF7lThJNr8

Take over the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTAwj2xZoc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpM6QKaAgP0

Take over Australia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7eQyrDt-U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvHt94EGrac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsiKVc028I0


Promoting Paedophilia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsExiAbCk1A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRlsMRomtI

The subjugation of women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Tw7WhH_aQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfPSN_92v2w

Lying & deceit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs7oi_-NUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvlvS2a2AVE

This is a book promoted by you, csteel, as a good holy book. A book that you would want taught to children in Australia.

Csteele,
Which riots? He wasn't at the first lot so I assume you mean the 2012 "disturbance", for the record my comments on that issue earned me a six month ban from Stormfront, the moderator who actually is a bona fide Swastika licker then deleted all my posts on the subject and cancelled my sustaining membership.
They don't like me, they tolerate me.
That is all

And another thing Csteele,

There's an interesting analysis in a video I watched recently, if you want I can link to it but you probably won't watch it.
OLO is a good example of where the internet is heading and it illustrates why sites like Stormfront and Revleft are relics of the past, every online community is going to have elements of every school of thought, from radical reactionaries all the way across to radical cosmopolitans, as is often pointed out we live in a pluralistic society and the internet has now caught up.
It's no longer possible for you to keep ahead of "Fascism" or portray us as idiots, that era is gone, you either have to deal with us or remain silent.

Jayb,
You'd be better off joining us "Fascists", to "fix" all those problems you list will mean WWIII and hills of bodies, we just want to close the borders and keep to ourselves.

Dear Jayb,

Every time I bother to engage with you it becomes distasteful.

It is like cleaning up after a young child, especially one who suffers from attention deprivation. You must be at least 60 odd but you are behaving like a toddler. You run naked without facts into the room, interrupt the conversation by screaming 'Look at me, look at me!' then proceed to piss everywhere with gay abandon.

Okay young fella I have a mop in hand so I suppose we had better do this.

Firstly Belly introduced the word 'day' into the conversation which you would have easily understood if you had bothered to read the previous posts with any concern about getting it right.

Secondly I at no time denied posting what I did but I was asking him what he was implying with his mention of explaining 'past posts'. Belly has a habit of kind of muttering to himself when he doesn't want to come straight out and say something. I was asking for clarification. It was however our conversation.

Now I was going to note that the 1R.A.R., was formed in '45 thus did not fight against the Nazis as a regiment and perhaps its absence in the regimental history may well have dulled your understanding how deeply hated the Nazis were to those who fought them.

I am however going to retract my linking you with Jay of Melbourne as a quick glance at the posting history shows the culprit to have been Philip S, although under the NSW anti-gang laws you could probably get done for consorting.

Be that as it may you yet again have become not worth the bother.

csteel: Okay young fella I have a mop in hand so I suppose we had better do this.

All the better to wipe your own chin with wolfie.

csteel: You must be at least 60 odd but you are behaving like a toddler. You run naked without facts into the room, interrupt the conversation by screaming 'Look at me, look at me!' then proceed to piss everywhere with gay abandon.

Let me say this first off. Piss'n on you is so easy. Yep I'm 67 a big kid at heart. One of my pet hobbies is taking the piss out of fruitcakes & you do qualify with ease. For that I thank you. Yes I have been known to run naked into the room or spend weeks without dressing at all. So what your problem. Oh yeah, as an Islamist, if you see a naked person you'd have to kill yourself.

I've sent you a run down on that filthy book of yours and, Oh! That what the tirade was about.

Csteel: 1R.A.R. was formed in '45 thus did not fight against the Nazis as a regiment.

1948, before that it was 67 battalion formed out of 7th Div. (Syria & Lebanon) The designer of the Skippy Badge was one of my passed CO’s. I served in Sth Vietnam with the battalion in 65/66 attached to the American 173D (S) Airborne.

JOM: You'd be better off joining us "Fascists", to "fix" all those problems you list will mean WWIII and hills of bodies,

I’m no Fascist, Communist, or any other ist for that matter. I work on the 80/20 rule. I see nothing as fully good or evil. Fascisms w & Communism were 80% bad, 20% good. Democracy is 80% good 20% bad. However Islam breaks that mould. It’s 99% bad & only 1% good. Just because nothing is all bad.

For the reasons I mentioned previously & again here.
The Quran. A book that promotes;
The killing of infidels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGcgVSvgp6I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTF7lThJNr8

Take over the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTAwj2xZoc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpM6QKaAgP0

Take over Australia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7eQyrDt-U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvHt94EGrac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsiKVc028I0

Promoting Paedophilia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsExiAbCk1A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRlsMRomtI

The subjugation of women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Tw7WhH_aQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfPSN_92v2w

Lying & deceit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs7oi_-NUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvlvS2a2AVE

This is a book promoted by you, csteel, as a good holy book. A book that you would want taught to children in Australia.

Rant all you like my terrorist friend, this is something you cannot deny. Hence the reason to ban this particular horrific book of absolute crap from Australia & especially Australian schools.

Dear JOM,

While Jayb ejaculates “I’m no Fascist” I think we both know if it walks like one and talks like one then it probably is one.

What methods do you lot employ to out closeted fascists?

I think he would be useful to your cause anyhow, a trained soldier who has killed 2.5 people. I suppose that would be 5 of whatever race you are calling subhuman nowadays.

Actually I have been curious why you chose to embellish your comrade's exploits at the protest? At least you had the good grace not to return to the thread which is something Jayb has not yet been taught even though he has been caught out many times. It did seem a little out of character.

Dear davidf,

My apologies my friend, the thread has become a sordid place fit only for those with afflictions such as mine. I am uncomfortable with the thought of you having to step around the 'unsavories' so feel I should leave our exchange there. Some other time perhaps.

Embellish?
I've contacted my associate on this point, unfortunately that very, very long discussion was butchered by the management so it makes no sense now. I was censored because I was counselling others against reacting to the protests and I was highly critical of the handful of activists who attended the subsequent rally in Melbourne.
What led to my banning from that forum was the fact that I called out the group "Nationalist Alternative" on their hypocrisy. Weeks before the event they had published a useful article repudiating Fascism, affirming the informed views on the fate of European Jewry in the NS era and suggesting that Fascism is obsolete and would be un-electable in today's world.
They then appeared at the protest sporting swastikas and SS insignia, I challenged this and called them hypocrites and provocateurs, their leadership then had me banned from the forum and expunged the conversation from the site.

Hmmm, I might be part Fascist, Commo, Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Independent, Greenie, PC, Getup, Christian because there is at least 20% good in them. Wait a minute that makes 200% good. Wow! I must be really good. I would never want to be an Islamic Muslim though because they are 99% bad just on their own. I am, however, an Analytical Thinker according to the Nightingale Course. Apparently that makes me an idiot’s worst nightmare. Is it good that I feel sorry for you?

Aah, csteel you never disappoint me. I noticed that you haven't' denied any of the links, therefore it appears that you agree & support what they have to say. You support the teaching of the quran & jihad, as shown in the videos, to children in schools in Australia as well.

Australia does ban certain books. Mostly of a sexual nature or bomb making etc, also some subversive books. Therefore Australia should ban the Quran as it is a book that teaches subversiveness because it is a complete Government System that is abhorrent to Australians. It is sexual because it teachers that it’s OK to have sex with children & goats. It is violent because it teaches Muslims to kill all infidels. It is immoral in that it teachers its followers that it is good to lie, cheat & steal from infidels.

Below is the truth. The Quran.

The killing of infidels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGcgVSvgp6I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTF7lThJNr8

Take over the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTAwj2xZoc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpM6QKaAgP0

Take over Australia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7eQyrDt-U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvHt94EGrac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsiKVc028I0

Promoting Paedophilia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsExiAbCk1A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRlsMRomtI

The subjugation of women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Tw7WhH_aQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfPSN_92v2w

Lying & deceit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs7oi_-NUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvlvS2a2AVE

Do you deny any of the above links csteel?

The Islamic world has not added much to the knowledge base of civilisation since the 12 century. I object as a taxpayer to Government funding of religious schools, if people wish their children to be filled with creation and intelligent design theory or the medieval teachings of the Koran they should pay for it. I fail to see any benefit in the ability to recite the Koran in Arabic for Australia.

Siller.
If you have access to a university library read this study and then report back to us, from the abstract it seems to explore the issues you raise, I can't access it so you'll have to read it and give me the gist of it:
http://dtl.unimelb.edu.au/R/J1Y11HXR6NV66TP24K13DV4D7YLUA3JL31GJ725GPJ75S6B134-03347?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=264824&pds_handle=GUEST

Jay of Melbourne
Unfortunately Jay I do not have access to a university library. Perhaps another reader could access this study and report the contents back to us.

Wassar madda csteel? Cat got ya tongue. Is ittie bitie steelie embarrassed by what you stand for? If I were you , I would be.

Oh well, see you in the next round ;-) Ban the Quran, NOW! Yeeay!

Jayb,

Yes, we've heard about the Islamic 'principle' of tukkiah, the right to lie to and cheat Infidels, indeed to enslave them if possible (after all, they aren't believers, so they are fair game, to an pre-civilized mind-set) but the right to have sex with goats - really ? Can you cite the appropriate hadith ? Or is that just a long-standing, pre-Islamic, desert tradition, not eally Islamic at all ?

Somewhere the Koran also says that geckos are evil, vile little creatures, and should be destroyed, but I didn't realise that there was so much affection for goats. Donkeys as well ?

What about chickens ?

Cheers,

Joe

Ayatollah Khomeini’s Little Green Book

The leader of the Iranian Revolution in 1989, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, wrote extensively on Islamic Jurisprudence. A two-volume book, which was published originally in Arabic, was called ‘Tahrir al Wasilah’. Translated into Farsi, the book is called “Tahrirolvasyleh. Khomeini also had another treatise on Islamic rules for living, called in English, “The Little Green Book.”

It is useful to understand what an esteemed Islamic leader such as the Ayatollah teaches his followers.

Here are some excerpts from “Tahrirolvasyleh” which Muslims probably don’t want you to know about Islam:

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.
A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, but selling the meat to a neighbouring village is reasonable.

Wine and all intoxicating beverages are impure, but opium and hashish are not.

If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure and even their milk may no Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. It is not illegal for an adult male to ‘thigh’ or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.

A religious decree by Khomeini ordered that girl prisoners who are virgins must be raped before execution, to prevent them from entering heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before execution. The next day, a marriage certificate is issued by a mullah, who sends it to the girl’s family, along with a box of chocolates as a wedding gift.

The complete text can be found in "Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom"

Thanks for those clarifications, Jayb. I'm still a bit puzzled about geckos, though.

I was struck by that part: "A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, but selling the meat to a neighbouring village is reasonable."

The Bulgarian-French sociologist Todorov suggests that a mark of civilized behaviour is to think of the Other as similar to oneself, while the mark of uncivilized societies is to consider Others as alien and non-human, to whom rules of proper behaviour do not apply, and therefore to whom anything can be done, including enslavement and, in the Ayatollah's case, the selling of contaminated meat.

Is it drawing too long a bow to suggest that, in Islam, or some versions of it, men may consider some - what others would call - animals, such as sheep, cows, camels etc. - as fellow-creatures, not Other - while they would be taught from birth that women are Other ? Including their own women ?

What a grotesque world some people must inhabit.

No, I still don't understand about geckoes. Such beautiful, friendly, harmless and happy-seeming creatures.

Hey Loudmouth. Wanna buy a goat? 'Ol steely might have one for ya. ;-)

Hmmm... Loudmouth, I'm a bit worried about the Gekko's myself. Maybe they could find a nice North Queensland Gekko. We call 'em Salties. I'd like to see that. ;-)

Anyway I found this on the BBC.

1) BBC, Friday, 24 February 2006:

A Sudanese man has been forced to take a goat as his "wife", after he was caught having sex with the animal. The goat's owner, Mr. Alifi, said he surprised the man with his goat and took him to a council of elders.

They ordered the man, Mr. Tombe, to pay a dowry of 15,000 Sudanese dinars ($50) to Mr. Alifi.

"We have given him the goat, and as far as we know they are still together," Mr. Alifi said.

Mr. Alifi, of Hai Malakal in Upper Nile State, told the Juba Post newspaper that he heard a loud noise around midnight on 13 February and immediately rushed outside to find Mr. Tombe with his goat.

"When I asked him: 'What are you doing there?’? He fell off the back of the goat, so I captured and tied him up."

Mr Alifi then called elders to decide how to deal with the case.

"They said I should not take him to the police, but rather let him pay a dowry for my goat because he used it as his wife," Mr. Alifi told the newspaper.

2) March 15, 2010:

Gulf News reports that a guard has been arrested for having sex with the animals he was guarding on a farm. Muslim readers writing in to comment in the newspaper want to know if the animals are still fit for eating.

Now that's worrying. Ask csteel if it's OK with him.

No, sorry, Jayb, I don't like my goats pre-contaminated.

Now chickens ........ that's another story.

Joe

Silly me...I was bored so decided to peruse the last three pages....what a grotty little thread.

rehctub, started a thread wondering why some have stopped posting.

We need look no further when the standard is thus.

Poirot: Silly me...I was bored so decided to peruse the last three pages....what a grotty little thread.

So I take it dear poirot that you are happy to have your children taught the quran? Yes? naturally you have checked out the links. Or maybe you haven't because you are afraid of what you will find. Or you have checked them out & you feel that they are all fine. Yes?

Aaah! Loudmouth, country boys do have some things to teach city boys eh. Snotty noses & rough tongued calves etc, Me, I'm not keen on the feather or chickens. I find ducks have softer feet & their bill is much smoother than a sharp beak. ;-) Said down a few octaves.

Poirot,

Yes, it does all get a bit sordid, doesn't it ? And so easy to mock.

But this - if it is genuine - is far more serious:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

"It is not illegal for an adult male to ‘thigh’ or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her."

"A religious decree by Khomeini ordered that girl prisoners who are virgins must be raped before execution, to prevent them from entering heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before execution. The next day, a marriage certificate is issued by a mullah, who sends it to the girl’s family, along with a box of chocolates as a wedding gift."

To treat women, young girls, babies, as if they are sub-human, merely objects for male pleasure, then this - if it is genuinely what the ayatollahs believe - is uncivilized, surely ? In what conceivable way can we, in a civilized society, learn anything positive from this ? Should we incorporate some of it into our 'culture', as I suspect some on the half-wit Left would recommend ?

It's so easy to be uncivilized: Primo Levi explores this in his concept of 'the Pannwitz look', which, if we thought about it, most of us would have experienced: that look that says 'You shouldn't exist, you are not of us, you should be exterminated, gone, out of my sight.'

Let's get something straight: treating people as sub-human is indefensible. Ideologies which have such attitudes built-in do not deserve our respect, or sympathy, or anything but our contempt.

There is nothing admirable in treating women as property, or things to be used as farm-boys might treat goats or donkeys or chickens.

Now, Poirot, do your wounded goose act - divert that :)

Cheers,

Joe

"...divert that..."

Sorry boys for interrupting your reverie. I know how important it is for you guys.

I await with baited breath the next diabolical narrative trawled up from the slops by Loudmouth and Jayb....fascinating : )

Carry on.....

Threads author is on line at this time.
Probably gloating at how many are posting as required, not considering the threads single point.
Make no mistake, my views are unchanged, I highlight yet again.
No chance at all exists for us to run Christian academies in almost any Muslim country.

poirot: I await with baited breath the next diabolical narrative trawled up from the slops by Loudmouth and Jayb....fascinating : )Carry on.....

OK poirot, as you wish.

If we had a post on the virtues of treating women as sub-human creatures, I would imagine that you would be up in arms to the max. Yet, here you are defending Islams treatment of women.

Or, is it that, as the line goes, "the truth. You can't handle the truth." Showing these things is distasteful to you because, "you don't want to know the truth." That is no reason not to air them in public & let people know what kind of world Muslims want Australia to become.

Question: Do you want this stuff taught to children in Australian schools? If you don't answer the question I can only assume that you do.

Poirot,

You can ignore the real issues all you wish, because attention to them is just so inconvenient for you.

But they'll still be there when you get over your wounded goose act. The issue of the treatment of women as 'meat', as transferable propery, as little better than farm animals, will still be there. The issue of equal rights will still be there.

Wow ! Now you can get all huffy and write "I will not be lectured on women's rights by this man !"

Go for it. Give it your best shot.

Cheers :)

Jo

Just for csteel & Poirot benifit. The latest in "The Truth is out there"

Link: http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/is-this-photo-grounds-for-death-20130325-2gpi2.html

Two weeks ago, a young Tunisian woman known only by the name “Amina” posted political self portraits to Facebook to protest the continued oppression of women in the Arab world’s first democracy.

Posing topless, one photo featured Amina smoking with the Arabic declaration “my body belongs to me, and is not the source of the honor of anyone” scrawled across her chest; Today, Amina is in a psychiatric hospital, admitted there against her will by family members.

The Wahabi Salafi preacher Almi Adel, head of the almost comically titled Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, warned Tunisian newspaper Kapitalis, "Her act could bring about an epidemic. It could be contagious and give ideas to other women. It is therefore necessary to isolate the incident.

It’s tempting to mock the preacher’s words for the crude expression of fear that they are. If women begin to think for themselves and question their environments, they might then demand their own liberation from the kinds of patriarchal societies that empower men like Adel to wield control over them. Perhaps even more terrifying is the possibility that they might succeed.

Unfortunately, the consequence of men like Adel having power is that they do wield it. And his proposed solution to ‘isolating the incident’ is to execute Amina in accordance with his misreading of sharia law.

An inconvenient truth.

Forgive me, Jayb...I was under the impression this type of thread was merely an opportunity for you and others to indulge in a spot of dredging. when I stopped by for a peek, you were busy regaling us with a story about a man having sex with a goat. (I do note that he was arrested for that action) - followed by Loudmouth jokily telling us about a preference for chickens.

Anyhooo.....I'm sorry dear but I can't be bothered reading your links or following your harangue.

Btw, I love your regular stunt of "If you don't answer the question I can only assume..."

If I don't answer, it's because I can't be bothered with your disingenuous and puerile game of trawling for Muslim nasties.

Loudmouth - the great defender of women!

He's the only male poster on OLO who has snidely used "sweetie" as a debating tactic....but I don't believe he's actually deployed it in reply to other male posters around here - it's strictly reserved for females when he needs a bit of extra ammo.

Actually I don't have any Muslim connections at all - but I do recognise a sustained bigoted diatribe when I see one.

Jayb, thanks, sweetie, for that further evidence of how far we ALL have to go, together, as equals, in the pursuit of equal rights for women.

Back to the issues, Poirot :)

Joe

"Back to the issues, Poirot."

Yup.....

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5699&page=0#158724

(Apologies, Joe. I always forget that if there's any diverting to be done, that it has to be in the spirit of ongoing bigotry - and I can never seem to get the hang of that)

Go for it!

(I'm sure Jayb has all the latest dredgings ready to post - sorry for the interruption)

poirot: Forgive me, Jayb...I was under the impression this type of thread was merely an opportunity for you and others to indulge in a spot of dredging.

That may be your impression dear poirot, but it's not the case. The thread is about teaching Australian children the quran in schools. I was only trying to point out exactly what would be taught to Australian children in school as exemplary behaviour. I have not even used the worst examples.

How do you feel about that? Do you want to go back to the dark ages? Do you want children to be taught that women are just meat & owned as one would own a goat? These are things that I seriously considered when answering this question. What I have posted I find abhorrent & not what I would want my children taught in school or anywhere else for that matter. Is the sort of future that you wouldn't mind living in? I don't think so, dear poirot, I don't think so.

The man with the goat, I do believe that he is still married & living with the goat, as also stated.

Thanks, Jayb - the issues.

Poirot, you can flounce east, you can flounce west, but the issues -for our sisters, all of our sisters - will still be there.

Or do I have to write: "I will not be lectured on feminism by this woman !"

- which I would never do.

So do you support equal rights for all women, or for just those fortunate enough to grow up and live under Enlightenment values, imperfect as they may be ?

Over to you.

Cheers :)

Joe

I think it's time we all heard from Iftikhar. What are your thoughts on your post now?

There are some that want the quran taught in Australians schools & some who are opposed. Can you give us a reason why, other than a second language, that the quran should be assimilated in the Australian school Curriculum?

Looking forward to hearing from you Iftikar.

Happy Easter everyone. I'm now off to spend some time with my granddaughter. I look forward to continuing this important conversation when I get back tomorrow night.

Gentlemen,

I've just dropped in to see if this discussion is
still on going. Imagine my amazement at the
current posts. Iftikhar won't be responding.
As csteele pointed out earlier - he never does
(check out his posting history). He only ever posts
one post and then he disappears.

As for all these anti-Muslim rantings.
Why? All because some fundamentalist
spoke about women as "meat.?"

What are you seriously afraid of?

Sharia law in this country is illegal. We do have laws
that protect our way of life and people who break those
laws will be punished, no matter who they are.

As Australian society has become more diverse with
continuing immigration, I would have thought that
expressions of racism in Australian popular culture has
changed over time. Racist language and attitudes that
were common at the end of the nineteenth century are no
longer acceptable one hundred years later.

However, judging from some of the comments on this
discussion it would seem that racism continues to
find expression in new ways, which I guess is reinforced
throughd the popular media where notions of nationhood
are seen as incompatible with diversity.

I'm glad that I left this discussion. I only came back
to check out what was happening and my advice to you
gentlement is - back off, especially in your attacks on
Poirot. Only people of small caliber rant and believe that
they have the truth, and others don't.

Lexi,

So who is 'attacking' Poirot ? Is asking someone to return to the issues 'attacking' them now ?

And what on earth is racist about sticking up for Muslim women ? Oops, sorry, is that an 'attack' on you or Poirot ?

In Islam, women have half the rights to inherit as their brothers have.

In Islam, a man can divorce a woman by simply saying so three times. Can a woman do that ?

In Islam, if a man divorces his wife while she is still nursing their child, she may remain in the house (his, of course) until the child is weaned, then she goes and the child stays (his, of course).

In Islam, according to the learned scholars, a man can beat his wife, as long as the marks are not visible, i.e. if she wears a complete covering.

And according to the Ayatollah Khomeini, ..... well, you can read all of that, above.

So where is the racism in any of that ?

What appals me about both you and Poirot is your willingness to abandon your sisters - and for what, and why ? Because 'all cultures are equal', even cultural practices which treat women, yes, as meat, as property, as non-human ?

With respect, Lexi, what you write is beneath you.

Joe

Yeah, Lexi.....apparently we misread the intentions of Loudmouth et al in these threads.

While on the surface it looks like he and Jayb are getting their jollies from indulging in their monthly bigot-fest, apparently the reality is that they're defending Muslim women...

(you can tell that from the way they were discussing goats, chickens and ducks:)

And if their attitude is challenged, they whip out their trusty "you're abandoning Muslim women" routine.

Ho hum.....

Back to the issues please, Poirot:

: should multicultural education encompass - in the name of culture - the suppression of women's rights?

Should the curriculum in schools in any way assert that women's rights - couched in whatever terms you like - should be subordinated to the constraints of their "cultures" ?

Should -specifically women's rights, "within their cultures", be subordinated to their human rights ?

- in Australia, we're talking about, but if you want to extend women's rights to other countries and societies, that's fine with me.

I apologise in advance if this is interpreted as, in any way, an attack on you or Lexi, or indeed, on tntire half-wift Left - it's been a long night.

Dear Lexi,

I'm afraid I am going to have to shoulder a large part of the blame for the state of the thread.

While I wouldn't necessarily call it sport I do find it diverting to wind up some of the playthings then leave them to their own devices. Jayb is a favourite but add Loudmouth in the mix and we have the equivalent of tin toy soldiers 'clacking' and flailing around sounding a call to arms of the other. I fear I may well be a bad influence on Poirot who can seem to resist a turn or two of the keys.

I promise to try and be more judicious in the future.

Lexi: Sharia law in this country is illegal. We do have laws that protect our way of life and people who break those laws will be punished, no matter who they are.

Aren't you bloody lucky Lexi.

Lexi: I would have thought that expressions of racism in Australian popular culture has changed over time.

Who mentioned anything about race, Lexi. No one here has. We have spoken about one particular religion & Middle Eastern Customs, that's not racist. You are pushing that one.

Lexi: Only people of small calibre rant and believe that they have the truth, and others don't.

We have presented an "against" argument in good faith in a debate on why such a subversive, pornographic & racist book as the quran is, should be taught to Australian school children. The proponents have not presented any argument in this debate as to why it should be taught to Australian children. Csteel, poirot & yourself have not even defended the book but you have attacked the "against" side with all sort of divertive gobbledegook.

Do you agree with teaching the quran to Australian school children?

Maybe we should agree with you. Maybe women ARE subhuman just as you seem to suggest. Maybe Australia should go back to the when women were kept in check by the men & Laws of this country. It seems that you agree to waive your hard won rights & agree with returning to the past to live a life under the yoke, as taught in the quran & insisted upon by the Islamic clerics throughout the World. I gather csteel & poirot would certainly like to see that happen. They have said as much by their repeated silence on the matter.

Csteel: I promise to try and be more judicious in the future.

“Judicious” (Having or proceeding from good judgement.) I’d like to see that. It would be nice if you would just debate the subject like a normal person & not divert the questions as advised by your Islamic mentors. Or, is really what you mean, “Proceeding FROM good judgement. Aah HA!

Dear Jayb,

As long as you continue to make sweeping statements
and generalisations - there's no discussion to be
had

Well here you go Lexi. No sweeping sweeping generalizations. Just one question.

Do you agree with teaching the quran to Australian school children?

Jayb,

As an atheist with a Marxist upbringing, not only do I not support the teaching of the Koran in state-funded schools in Australia, but I don't support the teaching of ANY strictly religious notions, as if they were gospel truth so to speak, in any such school - Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Callathumpian.

Or - in my advanced years - the religion of Marxism.

Yes, ethics and moral principles most certainly should be included in all school curricula - how people should treat each other as equals, what are the limits of state involvement in people's lives on the one hand, and the limits of our freedoms on the other.

Perhaps as well, children should, in their 12 or 13 years of schooling, gain some appeciation of how difficult it has been, over the centuries, to achieve some of those freedoms, and painfully place limits on sovereign, church and state power, so that children can get some idea of how precious the rights that they enjoy, actually are.

And absolutely, certainly, No. 1, all children should learn from a very early age that all people, male and female, of all ethnic backgrounds - or 'race', if Lexi likes that word better - have equal rights - no group has in any way any ascendancy over any other group.

Can we agree on that ? Lexi ? Poirot ? Uncle Tom Cobbley and all ?

Cheers,

Joe

loudmouth: And absolutely, certainly, No. 1, all children should learn from a very early age that all people, male and female, of all , if Lexi likes that word better - have equal rights - no group has in any way any ascendancy over any other group.

I would have added to "All people" "class & as in India, castes", as well. With "equal rights" I would have added "& responsibilities", but that's just me.

Does sit OK with you, csteel, poirot & Lexi?

Jayb,

I think "Silence was the stern reply."

But wait for it ! One or other will do their wounded goose routine :)

"Divert ! At all costs, divert !"

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth,

"Divert ! At all costs, divert !"

Did you loose your way around OLO, because you seem to have left a diverting mound of unrelated blather in another thread in another galaxy......

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14784&page=0#256262

Good try, Poirot :)

Okay, back to topic - should religious rubbish be taught in state-funded schools, Christian, Muslim, Judaist, Buddhist, whatever ?

I'm suggesting that it is completely unnecessary in a modern, post-Enlightenment society. Secular values are adequate. Waddaya reckon ?

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Jayb,

Now you're simply stirring.
But OK, I'll bite.

Why on earth would you assume that either Poirot
or myself would want the Quran taught in
Australian public schools? It isn't at present
and it's certainly not something either one of us
is advocating. Read my first post
on this thread. Parents who want their children
taught anything else outside our national school
curriculum are entitled to send their children
to private schools that teach the subjects they
want - be it Muslim Schools, Jewish Schools,
Anglican Schools, and so on.

Neither Poirot nor myself have ever advocated
Islamic fundamentalism. The same as neither of us
would ever support any extremism of any kind.
At the same time we don't believe in taring an
entire group of very diverse people with the
actions of a few - be they Muslim, Christian,
Jew, or any other group.

If you and Joe (Loudmouth) continue with your
attempts to tag Poirot and myself with all sorts
of nonsensical labels - you shall both be
subsequently ignored.

Excellent, Loudmouth.

I see you've retrieved it from where you left it....which just happened to be in Anthony Cox's thread on Australia's hot summers.....

Now if that wasn't a diversion, then I'm a Belgian detective with magnificent moustaches!

: )

Yes, I apologise for mixing my threads. Thank you for pointing that out, Poirot.

Now back to topic.

Lexi,

Nobody is tarring everybody with the same brush - please stop trying to play the 'race' card. Of course, only a minority of any religious group - Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim - would be fundamentalist in their ideology and 'race' would be irrelevant to any of those trends.

But that shouldn't stop us being concerned about the determination of many of that tiny minority to try to dominate discussion and policy direction, particularly in the fields of education and human rights law, Iftikhar being a case in point. And he would by no means be the most reactionary of the bunch.

Ideology is the issue, Lexi, not 'race', or ethnicity, or language - the ideology of universal human rights versus the various backward ideologies of male domination, conservatism and the prohibition of criticism.

And surely, Lexi, you would support the right of all of us to criticise, to critically examine assertions, etc ?

Love,

Joe

Lexi,

Jayb finds it difficult to debate these issues unless he can construct a strawman. His strawman on this occasion was him "assuming" that because you and I find the sort of rhetoric bandied around on these types of threads unnecessarily hysterical and bigoted, that we support fundamental Islam.

If a poster can't debate without constantly constructing strawmen, it's pointless to engage their questions.

Loudmouth,

But you are tarring everyone with the same brush. This thread like all the others on the subject follows exactly that model. You pull out the nastiest and most diabolical examples and post them as evidence that all Muslims follow that template....if that isn't your purpose, why do you bother to post them?

(Do you often sign off on your posts with "Love" or is that only reserved for the ladies also?)

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

My apologies if I've misunderstood your
intentions. I just get so sick and tired
of some people not allowing for individual
differences within groups and tarring
everyone with the same brush be they Muslim,
Asylum Seekers, or whatever. Of course we
should be able to discuss a wide variety of
concerns and issues - however when people
don't make a distinctions within the groups -
of say -
Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists - or only
point out the bad things in the Quran
(while neglecting the bad stuff in the Bible) then
that's when I get concerned.

Oh dear, the “Sweetie” tactic offends Poirot, a woman disguised as a man. How mean can you blokes (ie Jayb & co) get? Hey. The mind (or mindlessness) boggles, doesn’t it?

Mustachioed woman, you mention debate, but why is it, you never do? Uh?

These Western so called feminists get so hyped up about the merest of matters, yet they are stunned into docility when the real gritty womens’/girls’ issues of oppression are brought up, especially from the Muslim culture.

The Lexis (Foxys), Poirots and Csteeles completely dessert their sisters. How shallow and flakey can you get. I want to call it a new disease/phenomena of the traitor Western feminists (or not really feminists at all), “Hypocritis” or even better, “Suicider Hypocritis en Femme”.

The archetypal posters above are far too spoilt and just luxuriate in their own pettiness (and ignorance).

>>>>>>

Lexi,

Will you stop calling it racism - it is something far, far more dreadful than that. What a let down for women and our sisters you and your lot really are. And what a screwed up calibre you are (that you invariably bring up on posts trying to assert your superiority). Lexi Pollyanna, sweetness, and silliness, and ultimate status seeker of the ridiculously spoilt and deluded femme bourgeois.

>>>>>>>

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear oh dear. What with the future.

Nice try, Loudmouth....

You employ "sweetie" and "Love" as a tactic when you are debating women.

I have no problem being called either term in the normal course of life. However, if any of the men I might have recourse to debate in real life stooped to calling me "sweetie" or "Love" in the middle of debate, it would be seen for what it was - a sexist tactic.

I find it amusing that you, who hold yourself up as the great defender of women and equality, regularly deploys terms of endearment as a finishing kicker only when you are "debating" women.

If you're such a fan of equality (as you represent yourself to be) why not use them for the fellas as well?

Dear Constance,

I'm not really into mud-slinging,
and nobody likes an illogical or
abusive debater. When you say something
intelligent - I shall happily discuss
the issues with you.

Cheers.

Dear Poirot,

I'm consistently suprised by some of the downright
personal attacks that some posters indulge in when
opinions disagree with theirs. But I guess in public
forums we should expect it especially when dealing with
emotive subjects and issues such as religion and
politics.

Still, words do hurt no matter what anyone says.
The scars are that much deeper.

See you on another thread

Lexi: Now you're simply stirring.

No I wasn’t. I was looking for a simple answer to a simple answer. You have answered that question in the Negative. That is NO. Religious schools are another question. I don’t regards “Equal Rights “ across the board as stirring either. One of the big things I would like to see is equal pay for equal work, that includes juniors doing adult work.
Lexi: Why on earth would you assume that either Poirot or myself would want the Quran taught in
Australian public schools?

You have just spoken for yourself & confirmed NO. You have to let Poirot speak for herself. Csteel is another matter. I don’t expect a direct answer from either of them, just more diversion.

Lexi: Neither Poirot nor myself have ever advocated Islamic fundamentalism.

Maybe you haven’t but, when asked, Poirot, & csteel, always divert the question as instructed by the Islamic Fundamental handbook on Deceit & Lying. I am not stirring here either, just stating a known & all too obvious fact.

Lexi: At the same time we don't believe in taring an entire group of very diverse people with the actions of a few

Democracy is the Rule by many over the few. Islam is the Rule by a few (All with different agendas) over the Many. If the Islamic many are or want to be free to think for themselves then they quickly get stoned in a public place as a lesson to toe the official line “Or Else.”

Lexi: attempts to tag Poirot and myself with all sorts of nonsensical labels - you shall both be subsequently ignored.

Nonsensical Labels. We all have all done that at some time or other, especially those other two.

Please, let’s have a sensible debate. Answering each others questions directly & not diverting them. Let’s discus the pros & cons of a this subject honestly. Loudmouth & I have put forward facts, as we have found them, & have asked for an explanation of these factors. All we have ever received in return is diversion & abuse. Lexi, in your last post you have done that. You have explained your position. Thank you. Now, if we can get the same from Poirot & csteel, wouldn’t that be wonderful.

Good diversions, Poirot - you the man !

As for this:

" .... you are tarring everyone with the same brush. This thread like all the others on the subject follows exactly that model. You pull out the nastiest and most diabolical examples and post them as evidence that all Muslims follow that template....if that isn't your purpose, why do you bother to post them?"

Evidence, please, Poirot. Otherwise it's just ad hominem, isn't it, really ?

'Sweetie' and 'love' - sorry, I do genuinely like you and Lexi, for some reason. I guess I just love feisty women. I wish blokes had that sort of drive, no offense, Jayb.

Lexi,

As for this 'tarring with the same brush' thing:

For the record, I'm aware of some of the major differences within Islam, between Sunni and Shia for one thing, and the various other developments and schisms, Sufis, Ahmadiyas, Ismailites and Druze, Alawites, etc.

I'm aware that many of these strands have been persecuted over the centuries by the dominant Sunni and Shia, not to mention Christians as well.

I'm aware of the intersection between ethnicity/language and branch of Islam that may be operating in any particular case. I'm aware that Hazara are not fleeing their own country because they are Muslim fundamentalists but precisely to get away from the murderous Taliban fundamentalists.

Murderous ? What else would you call at least one atrocity each week against Hazara ? By the 'religion of peace' ?

I certainly don't claim to be an expert, this is not really my thing. But I know an attack on human rights when I see it, particularly on the rights of women.

On cultural or whatever grounds, you may choose to remain silent about the rights of Muslim men over Muslim women, but with respect, I don't think that is in any way helpful to our sisters.

Or has universalism, universal human rights, concern for others unlike ourselves, become so yesterday ? God, I'm so out of touch.

Respects,

Joe

Constance,

You are notable for your series of star performances whereby you jump onto a thread to merely to abuse anyone (usually women) who take issue with the rampant hysterical bigotry that takes place regularly on these threads.

Yes, I do take issue with someone who extols the virtues of gender equality and then ditches it when it's convenient.

As far as assisting women in this world. I can do more for them by supporting their education and well-being in less developed nations (as I do by sponsoring two girls overseas) than giving kudos to the prejudiced rants of several odd-bods on OLO.

Ok, csteel & poirot, No diversions or accusations please. Just answer the question as put.

Do you support the teaching of the quran in Australian State Schools?

Lexi,
I’m still waiting for any insight of intelligence from you. You are mudslinging now medear – all you come back with is accuse me of not being intelligent without any reason. You never counter any of my posts with any substance but only respond with continual empty platitudes coming from of your beloved Matilda or some other abysmal media luvvie. As I have said before, you don’t know how to debate. Soppy peacemakers are not debaters.

If you can’t handle it, delicate petal,and it is leaving you scars, it must not be good for your health, so best you go join Drum or even better, a social networking site. Or just stay away from the subject you obviously do not understand. I do recall Belly describing his insight on the Labor Party once which you had responded and admitted seemed too complex for your understanding. I myself did not find his post complex at all.

I don’t care about politeness on serious issues. You really need to toughen up and contribute a real argument if you want to stick around here. These serious heavy and edgy issues are obviously too much for you.

Jayb,

They’re too gutless to answer that one.

I have posted this article a few years back - still applies.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/my-party-was-trashed-by-the-middle-class/story-fn59niix-1225910722814

Lexi,

Constance's calling card is to dollop out abuse...and it appears she's got a penchant for targeting you.

I'm sure you're suitably shattered that someone of such high standing (sarc) around here should parachute into the thread to give you a good shellacking. She's exactly the type who regularly squeal about being bullied, when extended ad hominem bullying is their stock in trade - as in: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5699&page=0#158913

I'm a bit put out that she doesn't give me the "precious petal" treatment (as only a fellow woman can give:)....it's probably the moustache that puts her off : )

Jayb,

When you can get it together to pose a question not based on your hysteria I might deign to bother with it.

Dear Constance,

Perhaps if you were more sensitive to your
own faults then you would be less inclined to
judge others so harshly.

Be careful that you don't become too bitter
and twisted.

All The Best.

Dear Poirot,

Of course you're right.

Best not to react at all.

Take care.

poirot: When you can get it together to pose a question not based on your hysteria I might deign to bother with it.

Eh! Please explain. There is no hysteria involved in that question. The Question is exactly what this thread is about. I did not even pose the question in the first place. Iftikhar did. He said that he wanted the quran taught to Australian children in Australian schools. Abeit in the guise of teaching school children Arabic as a second language.

All I have done is ask you & csteel if you would like the quran taught to Australian school children, without the second language guise. Is that so hard to answer "yes" or "No" to? There is no malice, trickery or hysteria involved. Please don't divert the question again. I implore you.

You're right, Lexi, very wise advice.

Better still, stick to the issues :)

Cheers,

Joe

When you two defend violence and oprression, sorry you have no excuses.

No, I am not bitter and twisted at all, only sensitive, but not in the neurotic sense. I’m self aware and sensitive to humans who have truly been abused, and other injustices. You don’t even seem to know the meaning of bullying. Your charges are totally misplaced. You probably also don’t know the difference between sexism and misogyny.

Poirot,

I do not align with your type of twisted Feminist take.

I’ve worked for an overseas aid agency which was against sponsorship as it was considered patronizing. It was the best job I ever had. We were much into issues of human rights and COMMUNITY development assistance. It’s changing the village, then you galvanize the culture. If you sponsor individuals alone, what about the rest - wouldn’t they miss out?

Jayb,

"...He said he wanted the quran taught to Australian children in Australian schools. Albeit in the guise of teaching school children Arabic as a second language."

No he didn't.

What he did say was: "...All Muslim children will learn and be well-versed in Standard English and Quranic Arabic...Majority of children will learn Urdu language because it is a lingua franca of the migrants from the sub-continent..."

"Quranic Arabic" is another term for Classical Arabic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Arabic

Iftikhar did not state that he wanted the Quran taught in Australian state schools.....

So again, your question is a strawman in its connection with the opening post of this thread.

Constance,

Puerile response.

Any sponsorship not only aids an individual, it also assists and empowers an entire community in myriad ways.

But you already know that.

You're just taking a pedantic swipe.

Grow up.

Hi Poirot,

Thank you for focussing on issues.

Classical Arabic (Quranic Arabic) would be, I suppose, somewhat equivalent to Middle English, or the English of Shakespeare. I have no qualms about people learning any language they wish, in their own time, even Middle English - after all my wife was Ngarrindjeri, and we contributed a bit to work-books in the language.

But whether any language should be taught using state funding, in school time, is another matter. Again, I don't have any quarrel with the teaching, and voluntary enrolment, in regional languages - Indonesian and Vietnamese would be my preferences, they are such beautiful languages.

But as any teacher will point out, there is only so much time in the school day, so what do you teach, above and beyond the essentials like the three Rs ?

As I wrote before, I am not an enthusiastic supporter of religious schools, or any sort. All children should get pretty much the same basic curriculum, anywhere in Australia. So as long as Catholic or Presbyterian or Muslim or Jewish schools thoroughly teach the basic curriculum, on public funds, that's OK with me.

All children should be introduced to basic communication - 'hello, how are you, good day, it is sunny/raining/snowing today, what's that you're eating, it looks delicious, not Vegemite sandwiches again, I've got a stomach ache, see you later, etc.' - in the major community languages in Australia, Greek, Italian, Spanish, Mandarin, Vietnamese, and modern Arabic, but depending to an extent on the particular part of Australia they are in - for example, in Brisbane, I would guess that a few words in Samoan or Maori wouldn't be any difficulty, or in Perth, a few words in Indonesian or Tamil of even Afrikaans as well.

And what children want to learn in their own time is up to them: I have no quarrel with the state funding Saturday morning community language teaching. In fact, I wish there was a lot more of it.

Joe

Iftakhad: t is wrong to assert that a small unrepresentative group of Muslim activists tried to Islamises a state primary school in Woking.
As I have asserted before. Islam is NOT a democratic system. It is a Theocratic System of Government. If a small unrepresentative group try to islamise a state primary school against the silent wishes of the majority of Muslim parents. I have to ask the question. Why are they silent? Is it because of the religious police who will pay them a visit if they speak out against the islamisation of the primary school? I think so.

Iftakhad: The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to state funded Muslim schools.

I really don’t know what the system is in the UK. Religious schools in Australia do receive some State & Federal funding.

Iftakhad: They are not extremists who want to change of ethos of those schools where Muslim children are in majority.

Unfortunately some are extremists & they do want to change the ethos. One in an interview even said so, because, as he said the UK belongs to Allah & therefore to Islam & the British will have to change. It’s in one of those videos links I gave you before.

Iftakhad: It is the democratic right of every Muslim parent to see that their children receive balanced education, so that when their children grow up, they do not find themselves cut off from their cultural roots and linguistic skills.

Interesting, using democracy against itself. How to undermine a State. I grew up in North Queensland with the influx of Italian migrants. They spent much of their time adopting Australian culture. They still spoke Italian at home & taught their parents English (Australian) My heritage is Scot, Irish, English, Danish, German, and French. I celebrate a Scottish New year, Paddy’s day, being Anglo-Saxon, not much in the way of Danish; German or French though on days when it’s time to celebrate them. But, importantly I’m Australian & can be somewhat ocker when the time warrants it. I can wear a Kilt, a coat & tie or Mess Dress as the occasion demands, so I haven’t lost my heritage even though its two generations removed.

Can Muslims adopt Australian heritage & also keep their Middle Eastern Heritage on days where it call for it. Or is Islamic culture so dominate as to override all other cultures as it is proving to do in the UK. I think so & that worries me. I am allowed to be worried.
Iftakhad: It is a question of common sense, humanity and reason that bilingual Muslim children must be educated in state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods.

Is it common sense? I personally I don’t think so. A small minority of people may differ. I believe those people would be radical Muslims. Most Australians would be against teaching primary state school children in Australia Arabic, Urdu or any other language out of the quran, which it would be taught from, as it happens, in Madras’s.

Cont.
Iftikhar: The whole world believes that people who speak more than one language is a vital economic asset. Pupils who speak more than one language do not cause difficulties.

I have no problem with children learning a second language of any description from a properly prescribed & authorised text book on the language as other languages are taught. I object to teaching out of the quran regardless of the language it is written in. I do believe that the only language the quran can be taught from is in Arabic. I May be wrong.

Iftikhar: It is the politicians and monolingual teachers who are the problems for bilingual pupils.

How is that? Mono linguistic teachers don’t teach languages. Language teachers teach languages.

Iftikhar: Muslim school will help to cultivate the child into a healthy, fully flourishing individual with a passion for learning.

And State Schools can’t do this? Of course they can.

Iftikhar: There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies.

Turning these schools into Madras’s would in effect turn them into fundamental Academies. It has in Indonesia, Pakistan, and the Middle East & anywhere else there are Madras’s. Radical Clerics infiltrate & start the radicalisation process. That’s something that I wouldn’t like to see in Australia.

Iftikhar: Muslim faith schools are more or less bilingual schools.

Of course they are. But faith schools are Madras’s. They learn from the quran in Arabic.

Iftikhar: Priority will be given to the teaching of Standard English, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages. All Muslim children will learn and be well versed in Standard English and Quranic Arabic and at the same time they will learn and be well versed in one of the community language to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

Quranic Arabic, from the quran along with the subversive & incompatable fundamentalist texts from the quran taught by Muslim Clerics.
Cont

British schooling is the home of institutional racism and British teachers are chicken racists.

The British government is again asking us ,Muslims, to adopt the" British values" and to integrate fully into the British way of life.

But many so called "British values" are not acceptable to us.
We would like to confirm again that we practising Muslim believers will never ever adopt or integrate into all these "destructive and immoral values":

-Sexual immorality, sleeping around,affairs,adultery and fornication,illegitimacy,teenage pregnancy, immoral sex education,pills and condoms and Morning after-pill to every one? ( the contraceptive mentality).
-Sexually immoral programmes and messages daily on all TV and many radio channels and in magazines and newspapers.
- The legalisation of homosexuality and homosexual practices(gays and lesbians).
-the culture of death: killing every day 600 innocent unborn babies through abortion. And the killing of our old sick patients after stopping food and fluid to make them die from starvation and dehydration(Mental capacity Bill).
-Alcoholic drinks and drug abuse which are causing hellish problems in all sectors in our society.
-Yob culture
-Gender-bending: women becoming like men and vice versa.
-Disrespect for motherhood and full time mothers.
-Broken families and neglect of elderly parents who are suffering and dying alone.
-Unjust campaign of "Death and destruction" on concocted pretext.

Let us all: people from all faiths(Islam, Christianity...) and from all nationalities: ADOPT FULLY THE DIVINE HUMANE SAFE HEALTHY AND ECONOMICALLY BENEFICIAL VALUES :
*Morality, Chastity and fidelity, heterosexuality.
*Clean safe media.
*The Sacredness of life/Culture of life(no abortion, no assisted suicide and no Euthanasia).
*Avoidance of poisons(alcohol and drugs).
*Clear,natural,healthy,different genders, procreation/full time mothers.
*Healthy, stable extended families with care and love to our weak old parents.
*Peace, not wars.
*No occupation of any one else's land.

Thank GOD, our Christian friends and believers and many other sensible people in our society, do share with us almost all these DIVINE values.
We know it's right, so let's do it.
IA
London School of Islamics Trust
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

cont.
Iftikhar: Majority of children will learn Urdu language because it is a lingua franca of the migrants from the sub-continent. And majority of British Muslims are from Pakistan and their national language is Urdu.

I haven’t a clue what the majority Islamic language is here in Australia. But I’m sure the children can learn to speak their native language at home as was done by the Greeks Italians & Germans after WW2.

The Middle Eastern Culture is a worry as most of it is incompatible with Australian Culture. Female circumcision, child marriage, cutting people’s heads off if they don’t toe the Islamic line, wife beating & the killing of infidels are Islamic culture traits that are incompatible with Australian Culture.

Are these parts of Islamic cultures that we would welcome being taught in ANY school in Australia? I don’t think so. There are some Muslim clerics that teach some Muslims that in Mosques in Australia now. We know that from past experiences. It would be certain that those teachings would flow over to the Australian Kids in State Primary schools.

Now can we debate these issues in a civilized manner? If a question is asked can the responder respond without diverting the question?

Most questions will only require a Yes or No answer. I'm sure it won’t be that hard to answer a question.

Let’s make it easy. The positive side can be the ones who want the quran & Islamic language & Culture taught in Australian Primary schools. The Negative side can be the ones who don’t.

It looks like Loudmouth & I are on the Negative side.

Hi Jayb,

Yes, and I think we would also have the Enlightenment, and the victories of the long, bitter struggle for human rights, the trends of history if you like, on our side as well.

'Negative', I'm not so sure. Rights affirm, they don't negate.

Now acquiescence, appeasement and silence - all those useful idiot behaviours which would negate those struggles - perhaps they are more properly termed 'Negative'.

Hopefully now, we will see a spirited defence of reaction from the usual useful idiots :)

Joe

Loudmouth,

"But whether any language should be taught using state funding, in school time, is another matter..."

It's fascinating that after I established that Iftikhar did not call for the Quran to be taught in schools - but for Quranic Arabic to be taught, all of a sudden you switch your criticism to the teaching of languages other than English in general.

Not surprising, I suppose....

LOTE (Languages Other Than English) has been established in public schools throughout the country for a long time. In WA before the introduction of the Australian Curriculum, it was compulsory. The New curriculum has developed a three tiered framework for the implementation of language studies - including Arabic.

http://www.acara.edu.au/languages.html

Jayb,

Congratulations on your extended rant...perhaps you might like to examine the difference between the terms "Quranic Arabic" (Classical Arabic) and "Arabic from the Quran".

>>We would like to confirm again that we practising Muslim believers will never ever adopt or integrate into all these "destructive and immoral values":<<

Like legalised homosexuality, decriminalised abortion, contraception, a patient's right to refuse medical treatment and beer.

I think Australia has enough homophobes, bigots, wowsers etc. without our kids being taught 'Arabic' don't you Poirot?

Cheers,

Tony

Tony Lavis,

Arabic is a language, not an attitude. You had better take it up with the curriculum council if you believe that teaching it will lead to homophobia and bigotry. (I note that some my fellow English speakers on this forum seem to be quite adept in the debasement of those who are different - without even a smattering of Arabic)

Having said that, I see Iftikhar has gone beyond "language" in his latest post...so I'll leave it to the usual suspects to argue this thread out.

Iftikhar 1/3

Iftikhar: British schooling is the home of institutional racism and British teachers are chicken racists.

Nasty name calling that’s a good start.

Iftikhar: The British government is again asking us, Muslims, to adopt the" British values" and to integrate fully into the British way of life.

That’s what you do when you adopt into a new country.

Iftikhar: But many so called "British values" are not acceptable to us.

Exactly, which puzzles me as to why so many Muslims emigrate & seek asylum in a country that does not suit Muslim culture, then demand the host country change its customs & culture.

Iftikhar: We would like to confirm again that we practising Muslim believers will never ever adopt or integrate into all these "destructive and immoral values":

Well there you go. I’m sure the Christian people are not going to change just because you demand it. Maybe you should find an Islamic country that you would find better suited to your culture.

Iftikhar: -Sexual immorality, sleeping around, affairs, adultery and fornication, illegitimacy, teenage pregnancy, immoral sex education, pills and condoms and Morning after-pill to every one? (The contraceptive mentality).

And Islamists don’t do this? According to the quran, if you follow the guide lines you can even have sex with goats, providing you kill the goat & sell the meat to your neighbour. Of course he’s selling you his goat.

Iftikhar: -Sexually immoral programmes and messages daily on all TV and many radio channels and in magazines and newspapers.

Let’s see. According to the latest statistics the greatest downloading of Porn is in Egypt followed by Saudi Arabia then Lebanon Then the Gaza strip. Strange that.

Iftikhar: -The legalisation of homosexuality and homosexual practices (gays and lesbians).

According to the quran that’s legal & practised in certain circumstances especially with special boys purchased for the practise.

cont

Iftikhar 2/3

Iftikhar: -the culture of death: killing every day 600 innocent unborn babies through abortion. And the killing of our old sick patients after stopping food and fluid to make them die from starvation and dehydration (Mental capacity Bill).

The bombing of; mosques, market places full of devout Muslims & the wives & children of Islamic fighters being used as human shields though is OK though.

Iftikhar: -Alcoholic drinks and drug abuse which are causing hellish problems in all sectors in our society.

According to a major Islamic Cleric, the Ayatollah Khomeini in his book, Tahrirolvasyleh, in Farsi, Tahrir al Wasilah in Arabic & his Little Green Book in English. Alcoholic drinks are taboo but Heroin & Opium are OK. All of the above is a desirable Islamic lifestyle.

Iftikhar: -Yob culture -Gender-bending: women becoming like men and vice versa.

Well yes some of us aren’t keen on that sort of thing either. Wait a minute; what do they call the boys in the Middle East that are used by Islamic Men for sexual play things? Oh yes, “Dancing Boys.” & it’s an approved practise by the quran.

Iftikhar: -Disrespect for motherhood and full time mothers.
-Broken families and neglect of elderly parents who are suffering and dying alone.
-Unjust campaign of "Death and destruction" on concocted pretext.

Well one just has to look at the Middle East & especially the hard core Islamic countries like Iran & Afghanistan & Pakistan to see the truth in that statement.

Iftikhar: Let us all: people from all faiths (Islam, Christianity...) and from all nationalities: ADOPT FULLY THE DIVINE HUMANE SAFE HEALTHY AND ECONOMICALLY BENEFICIAL VALUES:

Well you had better adopt British values hadn’t you?

cont

Iftikhar 3/3

Iftikhar: *Morality, Chastity and fidelity, heterosexuality.
*Clean safe media.
*The Sacredness of life/Culture of life (no abortion, no assisted suicide and no Euthanasia).
*Avoidance of poisons (alcohol and drugs).
*Clear, natural, healthy, different genders, procreation/full time mothers.
*Healthy, stable extended families with care and love to our weak old parents.
*Peace, not wars.
*No occupation of anyone else's land.

We have only to watch the news of the World & read Khomeini books to see the truth in that, don’t we.

Iftikhar: Thank GOD, our Christian friends and believers and many other sensible people in our society, do share with us almost all these DIVINE values.

Most Christians & even Atheists follow the 10 Commandments. A few don’t that’s true & when caught they are punished by a fine or going to jail. We certainly don’t cut our daughters heads off if they refuse to marry an old man when they are only 9 years old, or if they talk to a male that is not a relative. Blowing someone up just because you don’t like their particular sect or religion is fun. I suppose you consider these to be some of the good things about Islamic Culture.

Iftikhar: We know its right, so let's do it.

Convert to Islam. I think not.

Well there it is. Australia has to become Islamic because Muslims, who want to live in Australia, will refuse to adopt Australian Culture. Therefore Australians must adopt Islamic Culture to please them. I think not.

If you substitute Woking for Sydney & Australia for Britain you'll understand where we stand with Islamists in Australia.

How do you feel about that.

>>Arabic is a language, not an attitude.<<

No sh!t, Sherlock. That's why I put Arabic in inverted commas - like this: 'Arabic'. There is no correlation between reading/speaking Arabic, and bigoted, intolerant or anti-social attitudes. But this isn't just about the teaching of Arabic is it? It would seem from his last post that Iftikhar is keen to see a few other lessons along the language classes. A bit like letting a fundamentalist Christian teach sex-ed classes: it's just asking for trouble.

I think the Ifitkhars of this world should be kept well away from our schools. Even the private Muslim schools. I think the sort of lessons they want taught are not the sort that are appropriate for impressionable young minds. What do you think Poirot?

Cheers,

Tony

I can't help wondering if any of you watched
"Q and A," on the ABC last night.
It was a special program for Easter and
their panel of speakers was quite interesting.
One of whom was Imam Dr Mohamad Abdalla - who
answered so many questions and explained a
great deal.

You can Google the program and watch it -
if you missed it.
Worth a look.

My point, Tony Lavis, has always been that on these threads "bigoted, intolerant or anti-social attitudes" are stock-standard fodder. People demonstrate the very attitudes they are criticising.

Cheers

Hi Poirot,

With respect, you do seem to go into bat for some strange, and reactionary, causes. Do you ever think beyond the surface to grapple with the issues and to evaluate what it is you are defending and attacking ?

What we all need to do is critically analyse the implications of proposals and issues - standing guard like one of those little yappy dogs at the front gate and barking at anyone who seems to be some sort of threat, is not quite the same thing.

To use another analogy, in case that one doesn't work, we should all stand on a level playing field of debate and discussion, with nobody trying to float above the field p!ssing down on anyone who says something out of turn, throwing ad hominems from a great height.

The issues in this case seem to me to be: should state funding be used to teach sectarian curricula, under whatever pretext ?

Think of it this way, Poirot: imagine if Opus Dei got hold of some of the Catholic schools, demanded more public funding, prattled on about the value of language, in their case Old Latin, and proceeded, behind the scenes, to teach a highly sectarian Catholic, catechistic, dogmatic, anti-human curriculum.

Would you be so quick to rush to their defence if somebody criticised such a mis-use of public funds ?

Divert that, Poirot :)

Cheers,

Joe

Yes I did watch Q & A. I thought it a very thoughtful well spoken program by all. I only there were more Muslim Clerics like him, I don't think there would be a problem, but even he admitted that Islam has been hijacked by the radical cleric. He didn't have an answer for the problem. Personally I sway towards Buddhism.

Is anybody going to comment on what iftikhar had to say. It seems to me that he is at odds with Abdulla . Would his moderate stand be Abdulla stand though? Will he stand with the likes of Iftikhar or will he accept Australian Culture as it is.

With regards to poirot, Loudmouth, I think she is one of those strange people that are against whatever your for, regardless of what it is. Sort of how politicians act. You know what I mean?

Actually I’m waiting to hear Lexi, poirot & csteel views on what Iftikhar had to say, but I won’t hold my breath.

Dear Jayb,

I'm glad to hear that you did watch "Q and A,"
last night and pleased that you found the Muslim
Imam well reasoned. He did make the distinction
though concerning Muslim extremists - that they
were not practicing what Islam teaches - but
their own version and interpretation of the religion.
I guess that can be said of extremists of many
persuasions.

What did I think of Iftikhar's post?
He's obviously someone who, like yourself, is very
concerned about what he sees as the erosion of
familiar values - in his case - especially in the UK.
This is a fairly common reaction when people find
themselves confused, threatened, or even appalled at
changing conditions, they may see a "return to basics"
as a solution.

I think that Dr Mohamad Abdalla - does not share this
fear of Iftikhar's and sees things in a totally
different light.

"Divert that, Poirot".

There you go, rambling on, espousing your views - ostensibly talking to me - and then you finalise your wise and learned observations with that neat little three liner above.

Why bother waffling in my direction if you end it like that?

The "issue", according to your last post to me, was the state funding of language tutorials for Australian children - that's what I was addressing. I see Chinese is big on the list - no doubt all the kiddies will come out of class as raging communists, hey, hey : )

Anyhooo. I'm done here - I'll leave you all to it.

Cheers

poirot: Anyhooo. I'm done here - I'll leave you all to it.

Well what does that tell you about poirot & csteel. I guess the truth from one of their own was too much, eh.

How does the song go, "Know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em" I guess they folded.

If you substitute Woking for Sydney & Australian Culture for British Culture, you'll understand where we stand with Islamists in Australia.

The moderates will be told to toe the fundamental line whether they like it or not, or else they'll cop a suicide bomber in their moderate mosque. So they will, & the more Muslims Australia imports the worse it’ll get & the more fundamental they will become.

Jayb,

I've already told you that I have no Muslim affiliation.

My reaction is to hysterical bigotry.

What's to be discussed when the best you can do is froth up and down each page.

It leaves no room for balanced discussion.

poirot: It leaves no room for balanced discussion.

I really don't understand what your idea for balanced discussion is. I thought I did that with my posts on page 18 & then on 19 just under Iftikhars 2nd most enlightening post.

See here;
"Now can we debate these issues in a civilized manner? If a question is asked can the responder please respond directly to the question, without diverting the question?

Most questions will only require a Yes or No answer. I'm sure it won’t be that hard to answer a question. You may ask me as many questions as you like. You will get a direct, straight answer of my opinion.

Let’s make it easy. The positive side can be the ones who want the quran & Islamic language & Culture taught in Australian Primary schools. The Negative side can be the ones who don’t.

It looks like Loudmouth & I are on the Negative side."

So poirot are you & csteel on the affirmative or the negative side of this debate and what have you to contribute one way or the other.

Hi Poirot,

I'll say it again: all children should learn a language other than their own mother tongue, from Grade Three/Third class if not earlier. All major languages should be on offer - Chinese, Indonesian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Hindi/Urdu, for a start. Perhaps some European languages too - Greek for instance, such a strong, beautiful language. My son did Chinese vor three years and now is fascinated by Thai. I studied Bahasa and Vietnamese in old age and loved them. i wish i had studied Bangla. I'm all for children learning languages beyond their own cultural comfort zones.

I'll say it again: all children should learn a language other than their own mother tongue, from Grade Three/Third class if not earlier.

I'll say it again: all children should learn a language other than their own mother tongue, from Grade Three/Third class if not earlier.

I'll say it again: all children should learn a language other than their own mother tongue, from Grade Three/Third class if not earlier.

Now, can we stop trying to divert, Poirot ? And deliberately mis-stating what people mean ? "Who, me ?" Yes you, Poirot.

Cheers,

Joe :)

Loudmouth,

"...mis-stating what people mean..."

(Pot-Kettle:)

Listen up, mate. You waxed loud and clear that you didn't see it as appropriate for children to be taught languages during "school time" - no misstatement there.

(You're almost as fond of the term, "divert" as JKJ is of "fallacy")

No diversion - I was responding to exactly what you were on about.

And you know it.....

: )

A civilisation is measured not by the rights it grants its majority but the privileges it allows its minorities. Muslim community not only needs Mosques but also state funded Muslim schools for their bilingual children. They need to learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the national Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. They also need to learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural heritage and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit.

Muslim migrants are living in a society which is institutionally racist. Brits must learn to respect and tolerate those who are different.Children should be taught about living religions so that they could learn to respect and tolerate those who are in their schools or who live near their own homes. British schooling is the home of institutional racism and British teachers are chicken racist. This is one of the main reason why Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools. I set up the first Muslim school in 1981 in Stratford, London in 1981 and now there are 188 Muslim schools and only 12 are state funded. I would like to see each and every Muslim child in a state funded Muslim school. I hope my dream would come true one day.

Muslim families are as entitled as any other religious group to schools that nurture their children's faith. Muslim pupils should be educated in Muslim schools because the current system is marginalising them. Teaching Muslim children in a Muslim school would remove the "problem of them being exposed" to values that conflict with Islamic faith. Muslim pupils are disadvantaged and marginalised in the city's state schools because the cultural heritage of the curriculum is "European and Christian"

Poirot,

I'll say it again: all children should learn a language other than their own mother tongue, from Grade Three/Third class if not earlier.

I'll say it again: all children should learn a language other than their own mother tongue, from Grade Three/Third class if not earlier.

I'll say it again: all children should learn a language other than their own mother tongue, from Grade Three/Third class if not earlier.

Now, can we stop trying to divert, Poirot ? And deliberately mis-stating what people mean ? "Who, me ?" Yes you, Poirot.

Cheers,

Joe :)

poirot, I notice you haven't posted anything on what Iftikhar has had to say. You only divert comment on what Loudmouth & I have had to say on the subject of the post.

Why is that?

If I or Loudmouth had said, "Muslim pupils should be educated in Muslim schools because the current system is marginalising them. Teaching Muslim children in a Muslim school would remove the "problem of them being exposed" to values that conflict with Islamic faith. Muslim pupils are disadvantaged and marginalised in the city's state schools because the cultural heritage of the curriculum is "European and Christian."

You would accuse us of being racist for not integrating into the community.

Iftikhar states, “Muslim migrants are living in a society which is institutionally racist. Brits must learn to respect and tolerate those who are different. Children should be taught about living religions so that they could learn to respect and tolerate those who are in their schools or who live near their own homes.” Yet there are areas in Europe that are no go areas for the nationals because Muslims patrol to keep Infidels out.

Isn’t that racist? If Loudmouth or I had said that you would be down on us like a ton of bricks for being racist. Isn’t that so?

Iftikhar seemingly wants to keep Muslim children away from the terrible British Culture so they will not be influenced or exposed to it & corrupted. Isn’t that setting up a separate State within a nation? What happens to those children when they leave school & have to mix with the terrible British Culture? Or are they going to stay within their own separate area, apart from British society?

If Loudmouth or I had suggested that, you would go berserk.

Now I’m looking for a sensible discussion here. Can we have one please?

Now poirot this is for Iftikhar.

Iftikhar, you know, if I was unhappy with a place I lived I would move. I really don’t understand why someone would immigrate to a place where they are infuriated& horrified by the local customs & people. If I was a Muslim I would move back to a place where I didn’t have to witness the disgusting behaviour of the locals.

Would it not be better if the entire Muslim population of Britain moved back to the Middle East or Pakistan where they would feel more at home & their children safe from the terrible corrupting influence of the British way of life?

You are absolutely correct, Jayb, that I've only addressed Iftikhar's opening post.

.........

Loudmouth,

When I made the distinction that Iftikhar was referring to the teaching of Quranic Arabic in schools, you immediately put up a post wherein you questioned the viability of teaching any language "in school time".

You wrote (amongst other things):

"But whether any language should be taught using state funding, in school time, is another matter....as a teacher will point out, there is only so much time in the school day, so what do you teach above and beyond the essentials like the three R's....And what children want to learn in their own time is up to them. I have no quarrel with the state funding Saturday morning community language teaching...."

I then pointed out that tuition in languages is well-entrenched in most curricula across the country "in school time".

So your view that languages were beyond the scope of school tuition appeared to me to be a hastily concocted argument to counter the inclusion of Arabic among "languages" to be considered for school tuition.

You post, of which I have quoted from above, addresses questions of language taught in school in Australia, and so have mine. They both relate to the initial post of this thread.

I apologise if I haven't got down into the usual gutter of mud-slinging that takes place regularly on these threads - no wonder you keep accusing me of diversion. I'm obviously not bigoted enough to get stuck into it.

Poirot: You are absolutely correct, Jayb,

Why is that? It seems to me that there would be a lot that you could respond too in his 2nd. post, unless, of course you agree with what he says. I don't know. Is it that you only find Loudmouths & my posts offensive to you?

Poirot: that I've only addressed Iftikhar's opening post.

I don’t seem to remember you addressing the first post directly. I do remember you addressing & criticizing Loudmouths & my replies then diverting anything we have queried you about when trying to find out how you feel about the post. I am flummoxed.

Hi Poirot,

Forgive me for clumsy expression - I meant to say

"But whether any particular language should be taught exclusively, using public funding, in school time, is another matter.... "

i.e., in parochial schools, Greek Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim - a range of languages should be taught, not just one. It should not be the business of the state, i.e. public funding, to promote cultural or linguistic exclusivity.

We have to distinguish between language-teaching in schools - i.e. provision of a range of languages - and community language teaching which, as I noted above somewhere, should be better funded, but it should be voluntarily engaged in, a function of community & pupils' own time, Saturday mornings etc. It should not be the business of the state to take functions away from communities.

I guess I'm not a Strong Multiculturalist, but a Moderate Multiculturalist - I'm happy when people all mix together, rather than foster differences: a just and happy society should not be like a Soccer match.

But a lot of this discussion is confusing 'culture', language and ideology. It's a pity that we spend so much time sniping and nit-picking, and defending, rather than tackling these complex issues.

Iftikhar,

You write: "A civilisation is measured not by the rights it grants its majority but the privileges it allows its minorities."

Says who ? What privileges ? For whom within a minority ? How do non-Muslim 'minorities' go in relation to Muslim 'civilization' ? Are Christian privileged in any Muslim country ? No, and why should they be, BUT neither should they have FEWER rights - the mark of any civilization is how well it protects the rights of all of its citizens, with privileges for nobody.

Please, no more of this thin edge of the wedge stuff: say what you mean. What privileges are you talking about ?

Joe

Well to be honest with you, Loudmouth, it seems I was being a tad naive and pedantic nitpicking that Iftikhar was merely on about language.

From the looks of his latest thread it appears he has a much broader agenda.

Cheers

I think you're right, Poirot - I'm beginning to think that the concept of equality - no more, no less - equal rights, however they unfold, no more but no less - is often incredibly difficult to grasp:

- for many people, perhaps people who have culturally been subordinated to the total power of an absolute monarch (however termed: king, sultan, pope, elder) from beyond memory, the notion of being equal with anybody else outside their own group, is nearly impossible -

- either you are superior, crushingly superior, to somebody else, and you can do what you damn-well like to them,

- or you have to put up with being subordinate to them, at their beck and call at best, at their mercy in worse times.

Until it's your 'turn'.

The notion that all people, rich and poor, Black and white, male and female, educated or from Victoria - should have the same rights, eludes many people. With the wonderful virtue of hindsight, and the advantage of history, we can understand now the value of the ever-imperfect Enlightenment in moving slowly and painfully over centuries towards concepts of equality, the common worth of all humanity, that we now tend to take for granted without thinking about.

Maybe most of us are embedded in Enlightenment values without knowing it fully - that's you and me, Poirot. But the thinking of other people is still locked into very-much pre-Enlightenment ideologies of domination-subordination, revelation-not-discovery, acceptance-not-critical-evaluation, and certainty-of-authority-not-perpetual-indeterminacy, and they may have problems even unerstanding the underlying principles of a dynamicmodern society.

Does that make sense ?

Bottom line, so it seems: should 'society' fracture into its 'natural' components, tribal, ethnic, racial and - above all - gender-based - or should people in our society - we, us - strive to co-operate and get along while, in a live-and-let-live spirit, we recognise each other's rights to be different, always in the context of (and predicated on) our equal rights, men and women, from this country or that, following this religion or that ?

Can we agree on any of that, Poirot ?

Joe

God has created diverse human beings to live in this tiny global village of one family. Creation by its very nature is diverse with different species, different communities, different cultures and languages. These differences represent the beauty and wonder but diversity is sometimes not fully appreciated, resulting in all sorts of clashes. The British society and Establishment must learn to respect and accommodate others, as if in a family.

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. He/she is supposed to be well versed in standard English, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages, to be part of the British society, as well as proud of his/her cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of his/her literature and poetry.

During colonial days, British did not follow local customs or culture. They didn't exactly "go native". They even forced the native Americans and native Australian to adopt all the evils of their culture and customs. They are still the underdogs of American and Australian societies. At least Australian Prime Minister apologised to the natives for their evil deeds. A study claims that Black and Asian pupils are being held back in the classroom because schools are "intuitionally racist". Now a race relations campaigner has called for the creation of "black schools"to stem the avalanche of educational failure and descent into violent gang culture. It is high time that the black community runs its own schools with black teachers and black governors.

Let the minority communities educate their own children and you better educate your children for the well being of the British society.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.Uk

Hi Iftikhar,

Perhaps we could modify what you say -

" ..... society and Establishment must learn to respect and accommodate others .... "

to

" .......society and Establishment must learn to respect and accommodate others in the context of equal rights for all and observance of the rule of secular law, for all."

And no, NOT like in a family - families are ceetainly necessary of course, but notoriously inegalitarian. One could even suggest that much of the development of notions of the rule of law and equality of rights has had to take place against the determined resistance of 'the family'.

Congratulations, by the way - it seems that women in Saudi Arabia are now allowed to ride push-bikes. Not for transport, but for recreation, in parks etc., and chaperoned by a male relative.

So after 1400 years, women are now allowed - under strict conditions - to ride push-bikes, in a land totally dominated by the religion of peace.

So how much longer before women get equal rights, Iftikhar ? Poirot ? Lexi ?

Bring on the Revolution. Which side will you be on ?

Joe

Loudmouth may I add my name to you post on page 23. You got it just right. Thank you.

Oh, Iffie, as the prophet Jesus said, "You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the speck out of your brother's eye." & "People in glass houses should never throw stones."

Loudmouth has given you a fine example of the equality of Islam in Saudi Arabia but it's not just Saudi Arabia. Pakistan is another fine example. Think of young Marla with a bullet in the head for wanting to have an equal education. When I was in London in 98 there was a young girl with a baby in a pram around Marble Arch. You probably know her. She was an outcast beggar from your society because she had the baby with a white boy. No compassion there.

Iffie: "British did not follow local customs or culture."
Yes you are right. I even experienced in the 60's when I was forbidden to lower myself by mixing with the locals by my CO. He was a notorious Bigot & Snob who was not liked by his troops. What you are talking about happened in the 19th. & early 20th. Centuries. It's doesn't happen very much nowadays. The west has moved on from it's Colonial days.

Is it a, "get even on whitie thing" that you want to conquer Britain & remove the British.

You haven't answered any of my questions. Is there a reason Muslims stay in Britain if the Culture is so abhorrent to them?

I am athiest/agnostic.

I would think it would be appropriate that all religions be discussed as a topic in schools, as part of social studies and history. Note, discussed, not taught, or indoctrinated. Simply discussed.

Information is power. Let us make our children powerful.

JayB and Loudmouth,
Firstly congrats for posting the interesting dialogue, I notice the author has not commented further on the points you have made, but simply went on to post other views.

Now, I have often wondered why muslims immigrate to western countries where they find the society so at odds with their culture and beliefs.
The only explanation I can come up with is that they see themselves as 'pioneers for Islam'. They put up with all the differences simply to further the interests and expansion of Islam.

I would be interested to hear your views as to why so many muslims immigrate to western countries

Banjo: I would be interested to hear your views as to why so many muslims immigrate to western countries.

Banjo when I went to the Boat race in WA many years ago the people we were camping beside came from a town on the WA coast. the Ayatolla Khomeini made a speech there to the local Muslim Population saying that they should get as many of their families & relatives to Australia because, even though it was Christian most people didn't go to church & we were a religious desert & therefore ripe for conversion.

There-in lies the reason why Muslims immigrate to Western Countries. Primarily to convert the World to Islam by stealth.

I think that piorot may have finally realized what is happening. She has ignored us & our reasoning, but now she is confronted with the likes of Iftikhar & their agenda for the you & I & her.

Iffie, how do you respond to the following posts, do you sympathize with their objectives?

The killing of infidels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGcgVSvgp6I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTF7lThJNr8

Take over the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTAwj2xZoc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpM6QKaAgP0

Take over Australia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN7eQyrDt-U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvHt94EGrac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsiKVc028I0

Promoting Paedophilia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsExiAbCk1A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRlsMRomtI

The subjugation of women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Tw7WhH_aQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfPSN_92v2w

Lying & deceit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs7oi_-NUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvlvS2a2AVE

Hi Reason,

Yes indeed, children should be introduced early to concepts of right and wrong, good and bad, i.e. ethics and morals, perhaps by having simple moral dilemmas posed to them, so that yes, they can gain a more sophisticated, sympathetic, complex understanding of human behaviour, and develop empathy towards others, no matter what their 'Otherness', when they see or hear or read about other people in difficult situations. i.e. to feel empathy for the 'Other'.

Perhaps it is the mark of a genuinely civilized population that its 'members' can generally feel empathy for OTHER people, in OTHER parts of the world, or in strange situations. For example, the outrage most of us felt at the invasion of Iraq, or the genocide in Rwanda, or when Malala Yousafzai was shot in the face for wanting to get an education, in a land with a religion of peace

Certainly the mark of an UNcivilized population, in my view, is the lack of any feeling for the dilemmas and tragedies that might befall the members of an 'Other' population - I was reading an economic history of Spain and was surprised to note that the wonderfully creative Muslims, expounding their religion of peace, always had at least fifty thousand slaves - non-Muslim of course - at work on their estates and grand buildings. i.e. in UNcivilized societies, nobody feels empathy for the 'Other'.

That sort of half-explains how there can be a manifestly uncivilized society which, at the same time, can oversee the building of beautiful palaces and mosques, and of long-distance water reticulation systems, etc - a MORALLY uncivilized society which is simultaneously an advanced engineering and archigtectural society.

That got me thinking: most powerful authoritarian societies go on about their architecture, the Nazis, Mussolini's Fascists, the Soviets, even that ghastly Bauhaus stuff. James C. Scott has written beautifully on this subject, if anybody wants to follow up on it.

Cheers,

Joe

Hmmm... Well 4 days & no response from Iffie. & no response from the Islamist apologists like csteel, poirot or Lexi either. I wonder why?

We did good fellers, we did good. I good dose of reality every now & again works wonders. ;-)

Thanks Jayb, but I certainly don't think that's the last we will hear of 'special rights for minority cultures' etc.

It's the one reason I am not enthusiastic about anything relating to Aboriginal people in the new-and-improved constitution - in my experience, it seems that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, and what seems on the surface to be mildly beneficial, turns out much later to do great damage, in this case to widen the 'Gap'.

Equal rights for all, yes, including the right to be counted as the owners of land that one's ancestors had exclusive control over, but no special rights. Boring, isn't it ?

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth:It's the one reason I am not enthusiastic about anything relating to Aboriginal people in the new-and-improved constitution - in my experience, it seems that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, and what seems on the surface to be mildly beneficial, turns out much later to do great damage, in this case to widen the 'Gap'.

You are right. I think the problem stems from the difference between the Townies & the Bushies. Most of the townies would know what Bush was & vice versa.

Politicians try to make Laws to deal with Aboriginals as one Group & it doesn't/hasn't work. What is good for one group is detrimental for the other.

Have we got the right thread here?

Nice to see "The Others" have kept up the debate on Muslim Academies.

Hi Jayb,

It's relevant to the notion of Madrasas in Australia - so-called 'cultural privileges' which do so much damage to the social fabric of Australia, and to the recipients.

In reality, Indigenous children in remote parts of the N.T. have had the 'cultural privilege' of 'special', 'different' education for the last forty years, usually at the hands of unqualified local people, i.e., in their own languages, i.e. they have become barely monolingual, illiterate and innumerate - to the point, so I've heard, that when young people want to go to town to, say, buy a car, they have to take their grand-dad with them because he's more like to speak English and to know how to read and write.

Of course, it's a similar process but different situation for Muslim kids, in urban Australia. But the upshot of special, different education will, I fear, produce equally useless adults who don't know how to function in a high-tech, and fundamentally secular, economy and society like Australia's.

In the Muslim case, those young adults of the future would, in that scenario, be shut out, will have shut themselves out, of the economy, and will be understandably resentful and bitter - but blaming the rest of Australia rather than their own teachers.

With predictable outcomes.

Cheers,

Jo

Point taken.