I am travelling down the east coast, indulging in my new profession of beachbummery. I stopped at Shelly Beach, Port Macquarie a few nights ago. Someone had told me that you can camp there overnight and that it is a traditional camp spot that has been like that for years, even though it is not mentioned in my free camps book.

Being a frugal beachbum, I want as many free-camps as I can get. So I stayed there.

I noted a number of campervans that were clearly staying put for the night. But I also noted three signs in the carpark with ‘No camping’ icons on them!

I was working on my laptop late at night in my car when the police rocked up. I immediately thought: oh here we go, they are going to fine me and/or make leave… and probably charge me with consuming alcohol in a public place! But there was no problem after I told them what I was up to and they quickly left.

But the signs say no camping. And another sign says no consumption of alcohol after 9pm. Why didn’t they police these bylaws? Why has the council put up no camping signs and then proceeded by all accounts to allow people to camp there all the time, year after year?

My concern is that there is all too often a big discrepancy between what the law is purported to be and what it is in practice. Too much of the time it is enormously sloppy….and the various authorities have no problem with it staying that way.

I just don’t get it. How on earth can law-makers and their various regulators not be striving for the best possible match between the law and the regulation thereof? And how can the top authority: the federal government, not make sure that this happens?

They will always tell us that the law is the law and that we should always respect the law. Scurrilous hypocrites.

Your thoughts….

Ludwig,
In very far NTH QLD we have a situation where juvenile gangs, known to Police frequently cause damage to property out of pure racist malice. The Law states that offenders are to be prosecuted. The Police at times do their job but from my perspective it's the Magistrates & taxpayer funded Legal Aid people who discriminate against the decent, innocent victim instead.
Either they're incredibly perverse or totally out of touch or just plain incompetent. I'd dearly love to know what the Law is regarding mentioning the names of these Magistrates ? I know the consequences would be tough but is it actually illegal ?

Ludwig,
I agre with what Indy said, the courts do not support the actions of the police.

However in your own example, it is the difference between a local government ordinance and a state law. If a LG ordinance is broken it is up to the LG to enforce that. LG rangers should be going around checking on campers. Similary, If I cut a tree down against an ordinance, it is a LG matter, it is not a police matter.

Maybe the police had encountered drunkeness or violence there in the past and were simply checking out who was there. Obviously they did not see you as a threat to the peace.

Absolutely, Ludwig. It is an utter disgrace.

On the one hand, you could argue that the police in your case were taking a sanguine, practical and thoughtful approach to law enforcement The one that says "this is a dumb restriction - these people are causing no offence to others, let's leave them be."

But you and I both know that - probably just down the road in another jurisdiction - you would have been arrested, thrown into jail overnight, fined the next day for trespass or whatever, and had your camping gear confiscated.

Law-enforcement-as-lottery might add a frisson of excitement to one's life, but it is something we could well do without.

Problem is, how do you go about fixing it? Local Councils are themselves part of the problem, with Councillors able to exercise their own petty prejudices, thanks to being voted in by a few hundred souls - who anyway, only voted because they had to.

Sadly, it comes back to the same old problem, which is the total lack of interest the general public has in who gets elected, an attitude that is fed and watered by the unwillingness of those elected officials to do anything more than cement their position on the gravy train.

"Why didn’t they police these bylaws?"

Well, one guess might be that they were police and not council bylaws officers…

But surely the bigger issue is, "They will always tell us that the law is the law and that we should always respect the law. Scurrilous hypocrites."

Hypocrites? You mean like laptop-enabled frugal beachbums who consciously make a decision to break the law?

My thoughts… Don't live with the guilt of your admitted hypocrisy and legal offence – report to the relevant council offices and lodge a complaint against yourself.

Ludwig three weeks ago my social club,a ham radio one, held its monthly meeting in a beaut park, a war memorial river side park.
Gates locked 24/7 but tables chairs provided.
WHY? well vandals, to let us drive to the table would say they too can, and smash the lot.
Wish I had the courage to do what you are doing.
But if I did? would ignore such signs and pay no fines.
My way of reminding the community should not suffer because we lack the will to put a few drop kicks behind bars.

Luddy old mate, I think you'll find those signs are merely an insurance policy, & a money saving measure.

The signs probably mean you can not sue the said council should you injure your self in some drunken frivolity with your computer, while illegally camped.

Secondly I'm sure it would cost hundreds of thousands to make the necessary investment in sanitary facilities at the site, to allow legal camping. You are I'm sure, aware how any branch of government pays about 4 to 10 times the going rate for any building work of any kind.

I can remember the mayor of Hervey Bay showing us the quotes for a 4 seat & urinal septic toilet at the racecourse/sports ground at Torbanlea, about 30 years ago. When you could build a 3 bed suburban house fro $35,000 the cheapest quote was $280,000.

I'd suggest you keep quiet, before the site develops a 6Ft high fence, to protect the councilors.

Well done WmTrevor and Hasbeen.

Ludwig should not expect much support if he won't pay his way.

Waterhole

Banjo, I am sure that it is the role of the police to deal with council bylaws, or at least some of them.

Case in point – parking restrictions at the base of Castle Hill, Townsville. People flagrantly ignored the parking signs to the most ludicrous extent, year after year. The council never policed it. But the police occasionally booked people. I witnessed the situation there almost daily for many years as I went running up Castle Hill in the evenings. Now with a new council, it is regularly policed by council officers.

So the police clearly can issue infringement notices for council bylaws. Or at least, they can when it comes to parking and camping and the like.

Pericles…. wonderful. We agree! Yarhoo!!

[Well, as far as I can tell, you are genuinely agreeing with me, and not talking with tongue in firmly planted in cheek! It is so strange for us to agree that I had to read your post several times, searching for the sarcasm. But no, we do appear to have genuine conjugality! I’ll crack a coldie right now to celebrate this momentous occasion!]

Yes, just down the road in the next shire, or at other places in the same local government area for that matter, the policing regime could be entirely different.

Again, I’ve seen just this sort of thing in Townsville. Just a short distance from Castle Hill, in and around the Townsville CBD, the policing of parking restrictions is entirely different.

Local councils are certainly a big part of the problem, and the level of apathy in the community is an even bigger part.

I don’t know what we can do about it. But I would think that if the likes of our PM would simply express appropriate concern about the law not really being the law a lot of the time and about making it match reality as much as possible, then it would simply filter down through state and local governments and lead to a considerable improvement. I can’t see why this wouldn’t be the case.

It really is a piss-poor aspect of any government that purports itself to be half decent if it has any of this sort of legal duplicity going on under its watch.

<< You mean like laptop-enabled frugal beachbums who consciously make a decision to break the law? >>

No WmTrevor, you are missing the fundamental point. Not a conscious decision to break the law or to snub one’s nose at the law, but rather; a conscious effort to determine what the go actually was, after someone had told the laptop-enabled-frugal-beachbum person that the place was a traditional campsite of long standing.

Now, the next time you jump behind the wheel of your car and get out there on the public roads and exceed the speed limit by a couple of clicks, think to yourself; are you making a conscious decision to break the law or does it just come naturally?

It has to be one or the other, because every one of us who drives a motor vehicle breaks the letter of the law all the time.

So make sure you stick to your principles and don’t exceed the speed limit by 1kmh at any point. Make sure you don’t start speeding up until you get to the speed sign when you move into a higher speed zone and slow down well before you get to the speed sign when you are moving into a lower speed zone, so that you are not exceeding the speed limit when you pass the sign. Then see how other drivers react to you. See how often you get tailgated. Make a judgement as to how much more likely you are to have an accident if you stick fastidiously to the letter of the speed limit laws. Fact is with speed limits, as with so many other things, accepted practice is significantly different to the letter of the law.

So, unless you can confirm that you always stick to the absolute letter of the law all the time in every way, how about thinking very carefully about the tenet of your last post.

Dear Ludwig,

I'd count my blessings if I was you and not
question a thing. You were so lucky to get
such intelligent police officers. I suspect
the signage was put up for "undesirables."
I appears that you didn't fit the category!
:)

Ludwig,
I am no legal expert, but our parking officers used to be assigned to the police. Nowdays they are Rangers employed by LG. Police may still have juristiction in relation to traffic and parking as well.

But I think you will find that other LG ordinances are the responsibility of the local council. This would include camping grounds, garbage tips, sporting fields, tree felling, building regulations, beaches, recreation areas and so on. Some councils even designate some beaches dog free areas and others where one is allowed to take a dog, some parks the same. I doubt if police would enforce those ordinances.

If you were to park in say a bus stop where there were signs the police could book you, but if you were to park say on the footpath where there were no signs, I think it would be a council matter. Interesting where the juristictions begin and end.

Ludwig, the simple answer might be if you park your vehicle there
no problem, but if you put out table and chairs etc, then you are
camping on the site.

<< I think you'll find those signs are merely an insurance policy, & a money saving measure >>

Hasbeen, yes indeed, councils seem to have this bad habit of putting up signs to cover their arses… er… backsides… without any intention of actually making sure that people observe them!

But they should realise that if it can be demonstrated that they are not policing their bylaws and hence effectively allowing a different situation to exist, then they could be liable to suance… and to a charge of misleading the public, and playing silly-buggers with the law… which could and should incur very significant penalties.

<< I'd suggest you keep quiet, before the site develops a 6Ft high fence, to protect the councilors. >>

Interesting point. If the council gets wind of this bad publicity online, they are more likely to clamp down on ‘illegal’ camping rather than remove the stupid no camping signs and let people in cars and campervans stay there overnight legally.

Perhaps they should realise that people are enjoying their environs and spending money in cafes and restaurants and all sorts of other stuff in the local area, and be grateful that grey nomads, international campervan tourists and the odd north Queensland beachbum like their part of the world.

This seems to be the situation around Cairns and Mission Beach, where I have BB'd recently.

Should the Port Macquarie – Hastings Council they dig their heels in and enforce their bylaws or should they see the light and let the existing situation continue with formal condonance?

Of course, the third option, and the most likely by far, is that they’ll just continue with this totally duplicitous situation.

"I noted a number of campervans that were clearly staying put for the night"

They were legally parked. That is all you observed.

Just as a side issue but an important one I believe: through all sorts of acts government has continually infringed on the previous freedom of the road and the right of travellers to take rest beside the Queen's highway.

There are many kilometres of highway and cities around Australia where short and long distance travellers are sorely treated forcing them into paid accommodation.

It goes further than that, greedy accommodation owners, cafes and other businesses complain about public benches and water fountains in central business districts. Modern shopping centres ensure that there are few seats and mums with children in tow must pay for coffee for a short rest on a chair.

Police who apply discretion to allow travellers some rest are the least of our worries. Better they rest when weary than trudge on risking an accident trying to find a place to stay. Besides, the presence of grey nomads and other good citizens like them discourages vandals and perverts.

On the other hand there are youthful backpackers crammed into vans who leave refuse and human excreta in their wake. Never good to come across a toilet that is out of order because some disgusting soul has dropped a plastic bag of rubbish into it. Then there are the petrol heads who seem to live on the Colonel's takeaway chicken and feel obliged to dump the packaging wherever they park.

Yes a few more "rest" areas, & off road perking areas would be useful. I had a rather nervous night on the side of the road, between Sarina & Marlborough some years back, when my head lights failed about 10PM. I had my one tonner heavily loaded, with a heavily loaded caravan on the back.

That road is moderately elevated, mostly over a meter, & I had to trundle along for a few kilometers, using just a large torch to light my way, & warn the odd truck before I found a spot where the verge was not too steep to drive down. Even then I was only a few feet off the road.

Deciding to spend the night, I could only clear the rear bunk in the van, & was nervous a drowsy semi driver would aim for the reflectors on my van, not realising it was stopped, & come in through the back to join me.

I was a bit lucky with where it happened. The next day I had driven almost 10Km before there was another spot where it would have been safe to get down off that elevated road, with the van on the back.

Whoa there, Ludwig, let's not rush things. After all, one swallow does not a summer make, as Aristotle wisely observed.

>>I had to read your post several times, searching for the sarcasm. But no, we do appear to have genuine conjugality!<<

Conjugality, adj: Of or relating to marriage or the relationship of spouses

I think you'd at least need to take me out to dinner first.

You were so lucky to get such intelligent police officers.

I have to totally agree with Lexi on that one.
Many Police are mere cops & they charge at anything that contravenes what's written in their instructions without actually thinking "hey, that doesn't make sense, better think about if I really should abide by some idiotic rule or should I make an intelligent judgement".
Like the bloke who was charged with speeding but his speedo showed the correct speed even after he let the cop drive his car accordingly. He had new tyres fitted which had a slightly larger diameter thus making the car go 3km/h faster than what the speedo indicated. Had that been an intelligent Police Officer instead of a mere cop he would have been told to keep his speed down by so many k's but no, the cop charged him.
Or the Magistrate who told a police officer she didn't ask for compensation because the 17 year old who stole the car & wrecked it for fun "wouldn't have the means to pay".

we lack the will to put a few drop kicks behind bars.
Belly's words above ring only too true. Because the Law has made it so simple & easy for drop kicks they now actually sit on the bar instead of behind.

I read a post called 'pretend laws' It seems it's expediant for crazy, hazy, lazy officialdom to make up signs and laws that have never been officially sancioned through authorised bodies to ratify them. In other words, they can't be enforced because they're not legal. They figure us lemmings will take any official looking sign as gospel without searching state, local legislative papers on line to see when these laws were ratified.

I wrote:

>> I noted a number of campervans that were clearly staying put for the night <<

Onthebeach, you replied:

<< They were legally parked. That is all you observed. >>

No, you can tell late in the day whether people are staying put for the night, if you read all the signals.

.

<< Conjugality >>

Hehehe. I knew you’d like that one, Pericles!

.

<< You were so lucky to get such intelligent police officers. >>

Come on Lexi and Indi, there is no such thing, is there?!

If the police were inclined to show a heavy hand in my instance, then Shelly Beach would not have a reputation as a free campsite and not me nor the various other people staying there that night would have been there.

.

<< I read a post called 'pretend laws'… >>

Yes, I wonder how much of this sort of thing is going on, pepper. We really don’t know when we see a sign whether it has legal standing or not, even if it has ‘By order of the council executive officer’ or something similar on it.

The whole legal caboodle is a mess. It could be tightened up so easily in so many different ways…. and most of the grey areas, misunderstandings and fines for doing things that you had no idea were illegal could be eliminated… if only there was the political will.

That doesn't let you completely off the hook, Ludwig.

>><< Conjugality >> Hehehe. I knew you’d like that one, Pericles!<<

If you keep going south, you'll hit Sydney, where I'll be happy to buy you a coffee, if you can stand the immense crowds, the permanent smog and the mind-blowing prices.

Can't guarantee you a camping spot, though.

the mind-blowing prices.
Pericles,
You should go to a remote community in Australia's North to get the real definition of high prices. How about $2.95/ltr petrol or diesel ? $7 for a doz eggs, $6 a loaf of bread, $5 a 1.25 ltr soft drink, $25 a water melon etc.
The Law makers totally dismiss the monopoly of freight & passenger companies i.e. they deliberately prevent competition for services.

Come on Lexi and Indi, there is no such thing, is there?!
Ludwig,
On the contrary, Police Officers are intelligent members of society, it's the cops & senior public servants who fail us so shamefully.

Aww...indy.....no wonder you're always feeling hard done by - those prices you quoted are really high.

Now if you came and lived next door to me, I could sell you some eggs from my chookies, I could make you some bread (by hand) and , although I'm not growing watermelons, I have some rock melons growing at the moment that will be just about ready by the time you get here.... all for a bargain basement price!

, I have some rock melons growing at the moment that will be just about ready by the time you get here.
Poirot,
Thank your for your hospitality but if you really want to help those who pay those high prices you'd need to vote against Labor & I can't see you do that in a million years.
You see, people did have gardens & grew things but then came Labor with it's rules & regulations & sent in AQUIS with chainsaws cutting down just about everything that grew here, they came with helicopters & riflemen shooting all cattle running wild, airport customs officers etc to stop people from bringing good vegetable seeds to grow etc. All because they are $hit-scared about deceases ruining the domestic market. If only they spent all that money on fighting noxious weed instead of common sense.

Ludwig, "No, you can tell late in the day whether people are staying put for the night, if you read all the signals"

Note for alleged campers, wear a foil hat to prevent mind-reading by persons lurking in cars. Another use for those aluminum baking trays.

Er, inflate airbag suspension to lessen rocking. One wouldn't want the regular servicing of the kitchen appliance to be noted by said lurkers parked whoops, camped, nearby.

Ludwig, Mate, I could not get your anger from first post.
I know the area live not far away.
I like to hit the road and drive long hours as I did long time ago in different work.
And stop at interesting rest areas.
The problem is not the council, or the good coppers who let you off.
It can be seen today Australia day, yobbos smashing such places up, returning to do it again, soon after its fixed.
Right now 100 half witted drunken youths are smashing a near by beach, and trying to do the same to the single BRAVE cop calling for help.
We know costs of putting them in prison keep them free, and MAGISTRATES WHO SHOULD DO 12MONTHS FOR GUTLESS VERDICTS.
Aim at them not the signs.

MAGISTRATES WHO SHOULD DO 12MONTHS FOR GUTLESS VERDICTS.
Belly,
Yes ! Perhaps we could even make them pay for our losses which they don't ask the perpetrators to pay for.

individual,

Whadaya mean that you can't see me not voting Labor?

I mean I'm happy to own up as a notorious leftie, however, federal Labor don't seem to have much left left.

In fact, it's pretty much the case that I don't have anyone to vote for come next federal election....I'm thinking of writing a exceptionally witty limerick on my ballot slips to entertain the vote counters - as my contribution to the electoral process : )

And it's not difficult to grow things sand make things so that one is at least making a little effort in deriving some autonomy from the "thing". Doing one's "own thing" amidst the hurly-burly may not change much in the wider scheme of things, but it does alter one's own experience of the world - (makes you more content and offers a little meaning)

Poirot, vieille fille,
Media & authority are constantly drawing attention to the fact of waste & mismanagement in remote communities. What they are not drawing attention to is the waste & mismanagement by officialdom in remote communities. Law & order i.e. magistrates are failing the community as a whole but even more so the remote communities. The instant the word indigenous pops up in a magistrates court, the denial of fact goes into overdrive as does legal aid. The magistrates sit shivering on the bench hoping that they don't make too harsh a judgement. We have arrived at a situation where magistrates are more scared of the law for being harsh than the criminals are for getting fined. This needs to change & we could start by placing more heterosexual red meat-eaters on the bench.

Hi Ludwig, I hope you're ok, what with all the lousy weather that has swept down the east coast in recent days.

I guess it means you won't have had too many more visits from the rangers, at least.

We have even had some bad weather here in Sydney! Shocking, when you think how much we pay to live here.

Ah, Online Opinion is back online again. I’ve been waiting for the opportunity to reply to you Pericles.

I was in Sydney for a couple of days, but got flushed out by the lousy weather. I would love to meet up with you. I will presumably be passing back through in the not too distant future.

.

<< Aim at them not the signs. >>

Belly, you are introducing a completely separate issue. I agree with you all the way about vandalism. I support the police 100% in trying to deal with it and I agree that some magistrates just don’t seem to get it.

But one should also be concerned about signs, bylaws, state and federal laws that are purported to govern us but where quite different situations are allowed to exist, ongoingly.

.

Onthebeach, have another toke on that there old stogey by good fellow beachbum mate!

<< Ludwig, the simple answer might be if you park your vehicle there no problem, but if you put out table and chairs etc, then you are camping on the site. >>

Bazz, yes the definition of camping is a bit vague and probably different in different places.

Some places have it covered by saying; 'no camping or overnight staying'.

I also wondered whether the three signs with no camping icons on them actually referred to the beach and lawn areas and not to the carpark. It wasn’t at all clear.

This is another whole aspect of signage that I notice all the time; the message is often not entirely clear; it can be open to interpretation or misinterpretation and is not uncommonly highly ambiguous.

.

<< Yes a few more "rest" areas, & off road perking areas would be useful >>

Unfortunate spelling error there Hazza. I presume you meant ‘porking’!

.

<< On the contrary, Police Officers are intelligent members of society, it's the cops & senior public servants who fail us so shamefully. >>

Hold on Indi, the police are the cops!

So….. what are you trying to say here?

I’ll try that again…

Onthebeach, have another toke on that there old stogey my good fellow beachbum mate!

Pfpfpfffff. Isn’t it amazing how one letter out of place can RUIN an otherwise bloody good post!

.

<< In fact, it's pretty much the case that I don't have anyone to vote for come next federal election....I'm thinking of writing a exceptionally witty limerick on my ballot slips to entertain the vote counters… >>

My feelings exactly, Poirot.

My limerick is going to contain several choice four letter words!!

Hold on Indi, the police are the cops!
Ludwig,
No, they're not ! Police are officers with integrity, cops are the bent version.
I maintain that we have too many cops & not enough police offers.

Ludwig,
Contrary to what you say it is by no means clear that a camper is camped and not parked. For there to be 'camping', and as far as I am aware few Councils have actually come up with a workable definition, presumably the person/s must be lodged temporarily within the vehicle.

So you are asking for Plod to search the vehicles to find evidence of temporary lodging on the spot. But what about probable cause and reasonable suspicion? I daresay excuse can be found. But in doing so aren't you encouraging police to do more harm (to civil liberties) that the person was doing in the first place? If a law does more harm than it prevents.....

That is why police should apply some discretion and go for the solo chum in the overnighting car, who presumably is more likely to foul the area than a person with all mod cons provided within a self-contained camper.

So, what harm is a camper actually doing to provide cause for search? It is lawfully parked but so what?

Ok Indi, now I understand. But you've got to admit, your distinction between police and cops did need clarification. Yes I agree, there are too many ‘cops’ around.

.

Beachy, me ol’ bum buddy. Oow… I mean …my beachbum pal, the fact remains that it is not difficult to tell late in the day whether a campervan, or hippy-style station wagon or the like, are staying put for the night or not.

And you’ve got to be careful with this police discretion thing. We don’t want it to amount to discrimination against some people, on the grounds that their type might possibly be more likely to soil their environment or something. We really do want the policing regime to be as even-handed as possible, don’t we?

If a sign says ‘no camping’ and you’ve got dirty great campervans blatantly infringing it and one single guy in a car, it would be bit rich indeed for the cops to turf out the poor fellow while leaving the others be.

"the fact remains that it is not difficult to tell late in the day whether a campervan, or hippy-style station wagon or the like, are staying put for the night or not"

No, the owner of the camper could be staying in a hotel near, or with friends. After some isolated camping Milady might like some home comforts of a hotel with no meals to make. Few hotels or motels have parking for larger vehicles. Not trying to be awkward, those are likely possibilities.

On what basis would the police issue a ticket? On what grounds would they institute a search? The fellow in a car might be obviously camping. The police might see signs through the car windows.

Were you told to move on or be nicked, and you are upset the alleged campers were not told the same?

Sir Garfield Barwick of the High Court once observed that police have no discretion, and are obliged to issue a ticket where an offence was noted. He may have been technically correct and that would be a law enforcement approach too, but many police realise that the literal interpretation of the law and rigid law enforcement does not make for good policing. Police need public cooperation.

Onthebeach, you wrote:

<< …those are likely possibilities >>

No, those are highly unlikely possibilities.

<< Sir Garfield Barwick of the High Court once observed that police have no discretion, and are obliged to issue a ticket where an offence was noted >>

Really?

How does this sit with the fact that the police do have very broad discretionary powers… which is mostly a good thing, but which can also be a horribly bad thing if that discretion is not well exercised?

<< Police need public cooperation >>

Bloody oath they do. And one fundamental aspects of getting public support is for them to be seen to be exercising reasonable discretion.