With a federal election next year, what'll determine your vote. The incumbents, hoping they'll change and stop lying. The opposition knowing they have exactly the same agenda, maybe worse. A minor party, either useless or certain policies not acceptable to the majority and wrongly advantaging some minorities. Or for a local independent, who wasn't one of the elite, a unionist, or a fool.

Only the last one makes sense to me, but it wouldn't provide stability nor a direction the vast majority may be comfortable with. We need another way.

If people who follow OLO, could remove our ideologies, prejudices and personal desires for a short time, we could debate an independent peoples party platform, on the internet. Work out direction, priorities, policies applications, It would be there for all to see and implement.

For it to work, would require selfless humility, to get the best harmony, security, freedom, sustainability and equal opportunity for all our country.

We would all have to question our motives in our suggestions, we may have to accept things that don't fully fit our current values. As long as they're progressive and beneficial, not violent or harmful to others, they should be accepted for the sake of the future.

It may not be simple, but if people approached it to get the best outcome for everyone, environment and biodiversity. It could be done without destroying anyone's business or lifestyles. It would bring changes benefiting us all. Economic growth and the environment are finite, do we want to reach that point without doing something to survive

I doubt there are many except the elite who are happy with the direction and decisions being made by our rulers, so why not see if we can start to make a change.

There's enough diversity and thought here to nut out a sane approach to our future, otherwise we're doomed. But then again it may be a disaster, oops.

Anything has to be better than what this man is setting out for the future...

"The war against this enemy is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century, and the calling of our generation," he said. "If we do not defeat these enemies now, we will leave our children to face a Middle East overrun by terrorist states and radical dictators armed with nuclear weapons." George W Bush September 11th 2006.

Does he really not realise that HE is the very thing he accuses others of being? I wouldn't be scared if I lived in America right now - but I bloody well would be if I lived in the Middle East. Sounds like the children of the Middle East are already facing such a monstrous foe, not at some time in the future - but right now, today. An American dictator armed with the world's largest nuclear weapons.

The sooner we clear the political decks of this kind of thinking the better. To make it last, we would need to start with the money.

Alchemist, I admire the deep philosophical thoughts that you have,
but I think you vastly overestimate the human race and its
so called intelligence. Personally I think that in the end only
nature will sort it out and the planet could well keep spinning
with a few cockroaches and ants etc aboard, humanity will have
wiped out most of the mammmals, including themeselves, all very
sad really.

We keep adding another 80 million humans to the world population
every year and nobody cares. I have spent countless hours on the
net, arguing with catholics and others, that without biodiversity
there won't be a humanity. I have spent countless hours arguing
that we have a moral responsibility to other species, to leave them
bits of the planet too, not just wall to wall humans. Try telling
devout Catholics that. They are still actively promoting ever more
people on the planet, bugger the other species.

In some ways my philosophies differ to yours. I accept that we will
all die, so somebody or something is going to eat us, as we get
recycled. Even humans will be eaten by worms in the end, their
claimed ticket to heaven just makes them feel better about that.

So I try and focus on real suffering and reducing that. The
Catholic Church is convinced that its ok to suffer, indeed nobel,
so how can I argue with that kind of irrationality?

Yabby thanks, I agree with you, most of what I post is to gauge the status of each situation and a laugh, plus learning a great deal. I also don't have faith in the ability of humans to use intelligence and overcome their barbarity towards existence.

I started this thread to see the reaction of those moaning about the political, social, health and environmental situations. Like most threads relating to reality, it'll be bypassed by those devoted to illusion, ego and the thirst for destruction.

Logically, Australia's a company, the people are the share holders, the difference is.

The shareholders elected people to manage the company who've sold of company assets and resources to the opposition for peanuts. Now the opposition charges us more for what we used to own, taking our profits out of the business. Management then demands shareholders pay them more, so they can subsidise the opposition enabling them to monopolise and charge even more. Management then demands shareholders give them more money, so they can live in luxury and join the opposition on big salaries after leaving our company destitute

Result our company is nearly bankrupt with massive overseas debt no income except from sharholders. We're left with no income, assets or resources and at the mercy of opposition companies, fully supported and promoted by our management.

Upon retirement, we either get a pittance of a pension, or have to live on our meagre super to survive, whilst charges and costs increase. Politicians, not only get a huge unfunded pension, unrestricted super, most become board members on huge salaries with the companies they sold our assets to. Unlike us, they have no assets or income tests.

What fool would invest in a company run in this way, every voter that's who.

This blatant corruption, is condoned by the populace, prefering to accept the lies and illusions put up by these depots. I bet there's very few if any, who have the intelligence to do anything. So this thread may go nowhere, just as our future is.

Thanks Kevin

Alchemist, I believe that some people have the intelligence to
change things for the better, but I also think that the large
majority will simply act in their own short term interest, sadly.

Have you ever heard of an economic theory called the "tragedy
of the commons" ? It explains alot and the result is not a good
one. Its worth reading, if you are intellectually curious in
understanding the world. There is lots about it on the net.

My own solution is that I simply paddle my own canoe in life and
don't rely on Govts for anything much. I now am able to do the
things I want to do, rather then the things I have to do, so follow
my passions. The animals here on my place all have great lives,
quite content with the world and free of suffering or hunger.

However I accept that only so many can live here, too many for
the given environment is unsustainable and they would die of starvation instead, not a pleasant death. So I accept that they
have to accept, that like me when I die, they will too be recycled
by some other species. The time will come for all of us, no matter
what our species.

Once upon a time I put in a huge effort to help save a species
called the bonobo, which is on the verge of extinction, its
a long sad story. It was in fact an Australian armchair consevationist who stopped me in the end, another long story where
I could not continue for ethical reasons (she got cancer). She
reckoned that it was better that the species went extinct! It
certainly taught me alot about armchair conservationists.

Yabby, I accept what you say and agree. I just thought an approach, which I probably should've called, 'open source politics' would attract some interest. Just as open source software is slowly taking the control of computer operating systems and programs out of the control of the elite.

Lots of people are unaware the top servers and companies in the world, run their systems on Unix, open source operating systems. With open source you start out with a common goal, to give people freedom of choice and then they develop it themselves, finding solutions as they develop the product.

All my software for business and pleasure is open source, in most cases far superior to commercial products. Any problems I have which are rare, I just put them on an open source forum and in an hour or so I have many solutions to choose from. It's an excellent way to run a community and maybe a country. What an evolutionary step, to give people control of life, by open source debate and decision making.

Why couldn't that work with politics as a starting point. But as we can see, its either me or the subject. It doesn't matter which, lets say it was a veiled survey, showing no hope for anyone.

I follow your philosophy in life having as well tried to rock the boat. Now I just think about it and get on with my life as ethically as I can, you can't do anything more than that can you.

Alchemist, I agree with your concept, in both computers and politics, but I think that only a small % of the population really think too deeply about life and even politics. I mean, if you look at how that nutcase George Bush won elections, his advisers knew just which emotional buttons to push, scaring little old ladies to vote for him, as Osama was coming to their neighbourhood etc.

So I think that sadly alot of elections are won and lost by those
sorts of issues.

I still have some hope for the world, mainly actually because of the internet, as I feel that its going to open peoples minds around the world a little over what would have been before. Communication, discussion, debate etc, can only broaden peoples minds, which has to be a good thing.

Meantime I just live life by my philosophies. My two sheepdogs would be about the only ones around here to have their own beanbag by the fire :) I still think that whilst world population is increasing by 80 million a year, we are going downhill fast. Look at what happened in Easter Island. If we are not very careful, the same thing will happen globally one day. Methinks it probably will.

What really annoys me is that the Catholic Church and its offshoots still try to encourage population increase. The Philipines for instance, where poverty is rife, which has a population of 80 million, they are suggesting why not 130 million etc. Its just not sustainable! Imagine the pressure on Australia, when Indonesia's population gets to 500 million! Sadly the first to be wiped out are other species. Orangs are not far off now, many other species will follow. I still believe that up there in Rome, the Vatican, nervous about Islam, is trying to outbreed them, thats why their contraceptive policies. Forget the religious stuff, up there in Rome, they want power for Rome and that comes down to numbers of
true believers.

The alchemist: I don't vote. I'm not even registered. Democracy is the tyranny of the masses. It's all very well to talk about open source, but open source doesn't coerce anyone into anything. Democracy does. Unless people arrive at a political consensus voluntarily, then it's just more of the same. Given that I don't think people will arrive at a political consensus voluntarily, then at some point, it goes beyond agreeing to disagree if we're going to do "what's right for..." and becomes coercion.

I'm not trying to save the world, although I will always help those near and dear to me. Indeed, I think a large number of the world's problems are caused by people who want to save the world. The road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say. Maybe if people just minded their own business there'd be less grief. Personally, what I want to do is largely envelope myself in my own little world. I want to get some land in the country, be as self-sufficient as I can (be bothered with), and the rest of the time, largely operate within the black economy whenever possible. Selfish, I know, but at least I don't have any grand designs for telling (or making) others how to live their lives.

For me - I think we are watching and even participating in the birth of 'open source' politics. It is taking place all around us - this forum is a vehicle for such - we are influencing politicians more than can immediately be seen. Soon there probably will be no such things as politicians - there will simply be on-line discussion for a period - then when it seems everyone agrees - a period of focused action will follow and then a return to on-line discussion to agree the next stage of making the world better and supportive of everyone’s needs.

Everybody can see that politicians are not being listened to or agreed with any more.. their lies/diatribe exposes their self-interest more and more every day. They are not interested in the 'common good' only their own power.

I love these discussions - I love the internet - people (despite what the established media still say) are everyday, bit by bit, more and more taking constructive action (common sense is always obvious) to sort out the problems that politicians are still scared of and in denial about. This is why they rant and become dogmatic. Deep down, they know no one is really listening any more. They are like sparks falling on water at the end of a great fireworks display - a lot of bang and bright lights – but no staying power – destined to fizz out after only a short blast.

Thanks for this thread Alchemist - keep up the good work - you never quite know who may have read what you have had to say - and the ideas and inspiration that may subsequently come...

The important thing is to not leave all the 'talking' to wierdo "leaders". For obvious reasons, they, least of all, have the common good in mind when deciding the future. The future is for everyone to decide - because the future belongs to everyone.

"Soon there probably will be no such things as politicians - there will simply be on-line discussion for a period - then when it seems everyone agrees - a period of focused action will follow and then a return to on-line discussion to agree the next stage of making the world better and supportive of everyone’s needs."

Kevin: There will always be people who want to wield power over others and do so. If not politicians, then kings or some other cretins. Also, do you really believe that the entire populace would agree on a whole range of issues? Even if everyone knew what the "correct" course of action were, I guarantee there'd still be a whole lot of people who would disagree. What makes you think everyone would agree if the "correct" course were open to debate then?

I'd love to think that politicians were becoming irrelevant, but the truth is that they're not. A large portion of the populace sees them as necessary in order to "do something about X" (for X, insert any of the following: terrorism, interest rates, petrol prices, the environment, youth gone wild, inappropriate urban development, job moving offshore, the neighbour's barking dog, etc.). If the populace doesn't see the job being done correctly, then it's only because in their mind, there are too many politicians of a particular party and not enough from another. They don't see politicians as the problem to begin with. As such, these clowns in government think they have more of a mandate to "do something about X" and so at all three levels of government, we have an ever-increasing level of intrusion into our lives.

Finally, you're also assuming that OLO is representative of the general populace. How many people out there even give a fig about online fora? Most are probably watching their favourite TV programmes right now.

Yabby, You express you view very well, even though I see what your saying, you're already contributing to open source politics and ideologies, by being on this forum. What effect that has, for you and those accessing this forum is not for me to say. Yet underneath what you express, I see someone very dedicated to seeing justice done to those who inhabit this planet. Maybe not in a public way, but within your life.

Shorbe, believe it or not, I'm fully in agreement with your position and the actions you've taken. I didn't vote for many years and only registered when I thought I was in a place where my vote would make a difference. Sadly I didn't fully understand about compulsory forced and unconstitutional preferential voting, so it means nothing. I think voting should be compulsory, but I also believe you should have the right if its that important, to opt out. If you decide to register, then you take the consequences for not voting. If you don't register, or ask to be de-registered, then that should be your right. But then we must accept and live with the decision others make.

K$vin, sorry cobber don't have a pound sign. What you say is perfectly true, very perceptive and something we should all implement to rationally move our society forward and embrace open source politics. Its the next step for us, irrelevant to our beliefs, we're no longer and ignorant illiterate people. We're empowered by our ability to understand all things in life and as you say, its at our finger tips. Now we just have to develop the outcome we seek for everyone, then debate how to attain that to get an acceptable future for all.

For me the first priority, is accountable politics. Make them fully accountable for their decisions that haven't been fully endorsed by the people and we'll see some dramatic changes. Maybe 99% of politicians will resign, and real people will step up and be accountable for their methods providing the best outcome for what the people want and a viable sustainable future.

Shorbe:

“There will always be people who want to wield power over others and do so” – it takes two to tango. Remember Ghandi? Just one man standing up to bullying changed India and the world.

“Even if everyone knew what the "correct" course of action were, I guarantee there'd still be a whole lot of people who would disagree.” - Common sense always seems to prevail in the end.

“They don't see politicians as the problem to begin with” – really – have you spent much time on these fora?

“Finally, you're also assuming that OLO is representative of the general populace. How many people out there even give a fig about online fora? Most are probably watching their favourite TV programmes right now.” This is changing every day – I repeat -“ I think we are watching and even participating in THE BIRTH of 'open source' politics.”

Everyday, I see this (and it changes)….

Newest Users

Fordie, kalpert, merv, Chris C, Symo, kathap, SLA, Olduvai, Chelle, Gadget, ascanius, Deborah58, dgorno, petpal, baubler, xp34, Americandee, Stalker1, Penis, DarthSeditou

You started this thread Alchemist - I suppose Open Source is the next biggest iconic brand to hit the universe?

Kevin: Gandhi, Buddha, Mohammed, Christ, Marx...pick your favourite prophet, but not one of them has done diddly to ultimately change the human condition. There will always be those who wield power over one another, and those who put up with it, because that's who we are.

Common sense doesn't prevail in the end. Europe has produced some of the most profound philosophers and other thinkers in the world. They've also produced a heap of wars and dictators in scores, butchering tens of millions in the process. Why would online fora suddenly change all that? You're also assuming that everyone would agree. That's simply not going to happen. Take the issue of abortion, for instance. There's no middle ground. It's an either/or situation, and it's very much based upon one's world view.

Again, you're extrapolating from people on these fora (and plenty of them are in favour of government intervention) to the whole of the country. You list twenty new users and think that's a groundswell. Besides which, as far as I can see, on just about every topic here, it's the same dozen or so people commenting in the main (eg. BOAZ_David, Ludwig, TurnLeftThenRight, The alchemist, Marilyn Shepherd, etc.), with occasional ring-ins. If these online fora are becoming so popular, why have only four of us commented on this thread (for a grand total of thirteen posts)? Why haven't we seen thousands of users posting tens of thousands of posts?

Take time to contemplate my responses shorbe - how reasonable they seem is dependant upon how much as a person, you are consumed with the past or alive to the future. I chose my words carefully, "bit by bit".

The potential for accelarated change has never been so great - the reason......?

Simple, everything is connected.

Alchemist, I don't know if you have ever studied the Swiss version
of democracy, but I quite like it. Rather then vote once every few years, people vote every few months, on various issues.

Our version means that once you've given whoever the nod in the ballot box, they will decide your opinion on just about everything for years. I'd rather have a rather say on more issues, as the Swiss do, thats true democracy.

One interesting thing about it that I noticed, the level of political understanding among the public grew, as they debated issues that they were going to vote on. Often what the public wanted was quite different to what politicians wanted!

The internet should actually make that kind of system far cheaper and more cost effective, then the present system of voting. If
we say could all establish our identies on a card reader, they are quite cheap actually, then vote on all sorts of issues on a regular
basis, public opinion would be taken note of far more then it is now.

Much of today's politics is bogged down in parties, rather then
issues, which is a great shame.

Yabby, I've looked at the Swiss system, it works well. They're very communal in their political outlook, we aren't. People should be able to decide any decision effecting them that comes up, except those platforms politicians campaigned on and got voters approval. Regular non compulsory technological voting on matters, is the way of the future, all others have failed us.

Shorbe you've brought the I was hoping people could avoid, ideology. Your point on abortion sums it up, there's no middle ground because people refuse to look beyond their ideologies and see things from the individuals involved and work on that

Why there's only 4 of us on this thread, you can answer yourself. Browse the threads over the last year to see where people minds are, completely locked into illusion. Threads on the environment, health, alternative energies, water, pollution, indigenous affairs, meaningful subjects, get little support or comment unless it directly effects people now. No interest in the future, just their now. Threads on ideological illusions in people minds are filled, saying the same thing over and over. Doesn't that ring any bells in your head as to the revolving door syndrome the majority are in.

It'd be simple to turn this country around, give everyone virtually free power, cheap fuel, a full say in politics. Good health, eliminate 95% unemployment, crime, save the environment, and have sustainable lifestyles, where people didn't have to slave their entire lives for the economic gain of a bunch of morons, who are destroying everything.

OLO gets thousands of hits a day by people who read the thread, but don't necessarily involve themselves. Just like letters to the editor, of the millions thinking about current affairs, 99% do nothing. They read what others say, if it sounds rational they take it on board.

I hoped there were enough sensitive people around who'd debate a new political approach without bringing their personal ideological demons into it. As that's not the case, we have but one outcome, environmental and economic collapse, revolution and war, more death and destruction.

If us 4 had developed a rational debate, bringing forward good ideas, others would follow it. However as usual, its turns into I'm right your wrong clashes.

Doesn't that show an infantile unevolved mind deserving of extinction, considering the lack of care towards the planet and other life forms living here, giving the conditions for life.

For the earth, there's no other option but to remove the cause of its collapse, humans, There's no getting away from that and none of the delusional ideologies has a verifiable answer, but hope through violence, against all and sundry.

Politicians are hell bent on selling everything because they have no concept or experience in operating anything, but their selfishness. We've invested our future management of our country in those who are giving away our assets to their friends, removing our income and asking us pay more. Not only that but most of the money is going overseas

Would you invest in company whose management is selling of the assets to the opposition, then expecting the shareholders to give them more money to subsidise the opposition so they can charge us more. Our foreign debt shows the real economic situation, not the domestic illusion the fools give us.

You're very wise Alchemist. It is obvious to me that most western countries - as clients of the US have to gear their economies to ensuring the US remains the dominant economic powerhouse. It’s sort of feudal. The country with the cheapest goods can have so because the rest pay more - it’s like we are subtly paying taxes to the US.

Threads always seem to start with differing and often down right opposing opinions. This fuels debate - but it does seem that eventually - most reasonable people start to coalesce around the most reasonable points of view - hence why I believe commonsense eventually prevails. Extreme views may seem reasonable at the outset - but eventually, they sit exposed amongst the reasonable postings of the majority who wish to get on and create a better world for all. As more people become involved - this can only become even more obvious. In my experience - the vast majority of people I meet are fairly reasonable minded.

Kevin: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't believe the internet will ultimately be the liberating force you believe it to be. Ultimately, human nature remains the same, and so technology or anything else gets used the same.

The alchemist: I'm not disagreeing with you as such, but I think we need to try to stand outside ourselves for a second and look at the wider picture of history, even if our own situation seems very pressing. There have been other times when societies have been very up the creek and they probably thought everything was going to hell in a hand basket (look at all the post-apocalyptic, nuclear winter scenarios in popular culture in the early 80s). However, in the end, civilisation survived and/or rebuilt itself. I take a cyclical and cynical view. Of course, it won't go on forever. At the very least, one day, our sun will die. I think we're a long way from the end of the game though.

Alchemist - this may be of interest to you....

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jay_rosen/2006/09/post_394.html

Shorbe, history can't gauge the outcome of our present crisis, for the following reasons. Until the turn of the 20th century, conflict and political globalisation didn't exist. Problems were localised as were politics, now no matter what we may like to think, everything is globalised. In the political world what happens overseas effects us because they've put political control in economics, not the future.

Common sense won't prevail this time, as the people of the world have no say in what's happening, it's the politicians and their economic masters. There was a time in the 80's, when we were less than 3 minutes away from nuclear war. It was only the common sense of Russian and US presidents of the time that stopped it, both were about to launch, after computer malfunctions in their systems. It didn't happen, but it was very close. We may not be in for a nuclear winter, but we're in for many other scenario's we can't stop, that may be much worse.

Kevin yes that's a good article and the way it will go, the results of the flow of information on OLO. is a good example. We must change our political nature, with an election soon, none of them has a clue except, give more to their mates and give us less at higher costs. How far can we go in shipping manufacturing and jobs overseas, or importing people to work for less.

Open source politics is the next step, or its collapse. Our present system only represents the elite and their grab for more power. Unlike the past this is a world problem, not a community or country one. For this country, one more year of this drought may bring the country to it's knees. Water and energy consumption is increasing, with out any alternative approaches being introduced to reverse it. Only one outcome from that and it's not nice for the 97% of the population who rely totally on the system for everything.