AJ Philips>> There is also the implication from you here that if we can't achieve absolute certainty, then there's no point in even trying to think.<<


AJ, your outrage at the fence sitter speaks volumes in regard to your rationale. You want to argue a point with your primary premise being underpinned with the term “probability” or “improbability”.

I counter with a premise based on probability as well, but my probability is fence sitting while yours for some reason carries more weight….more probable. I take it that scientific facts would form the basis of your synopsis as to no creator. As I said to Dave the atheist, for past fifty years we knew what a neutron consisted off, but a few years ago we found that that model was wrong.

AJ all I am saying is that without the knowledge of what “was” before the big bang how can you hang your hat on the no creator peg. You know about as much as I and all the scientists of the globe regarding this subject, and that is nothing.

worldwatcher,

"You must have realised by now he likes to have the last word. "

Mmmmmmmmm..... That is quite an interesting observation/guess and it's from someone who has only been on this Forum since 13/12/2012?

Maybe you have been observing my interactions for years without signing up. Again, most interesting.

David

The atheist foundation is correct in that the Christmas tradition has pagan origins. However, I don't really see why that matters. The new tradition of Christmas is that we are celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, regardless of what day He might have been born, or where the tradition came from. It comes down to what your intentions are, what the motivation is in your heart. If it is to glorify the risen Savior, I don't think Heaven is going to frown upon it.

Washed,

In the Wikipedia article on the 'Historicity of Jesus', it provides these endnotes to affirm the truth of the existence of Jesus according to many ancient historians:

Notes

^ a b c In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (now a secular agnostic who was formerly Evangelical) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285

^ Robert M. Price (a Christian atheist who denies the existence of Jesus) agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity, ISBN 028106329X page 61

^ a b Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200

^ a b Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34

^ a b c d Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"

Professor of philosophy, Dr William Lane Craig, has provided 'Evidence for Jesus' at: http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover2.html

Onthebeach,

Thank you - I enjoyed listening to Chris Rea on the youtube clip. Have to admit I hadn't heard of him prior to your mention, but like his laid back style on this. A refreshing change to hear a melodic song - get rather tired of hearing the caterwauling screaming which passes for music these days.
My preferences in music are eclectic, but rarely can find any of the latest offerings are to my taste.

Since I was a child, at this time of year Bing Crosby's croony rendering of I'm dreaming of a White Christmas has been my alltime favorite, and would you believe second comes The Chipmunks carol album, and third is Calgary Youth Choir's.

Brag time. Having won an eisteddfod singing Ave Maria in Latin, I get boosbumps every time I hear it sung.

This is so completely off the original thread, but the great Ella Fitzgerald sang Summertime, and until Fantasia sang it on American Idol, I didn't think anyone could ever topple Ella's version.