John Dela Bosca say yes and so do I.
A remoteness from the reason unions exist can be found in some unions, members.
Past dirt files and not so far in the past harm the trade union movement.
But most of all the union members.
A worker should be able to pay his or her dues and know it is not to reward filth.
In return they will get service and honestly.
Above all, only a trusted union movement can grow.
And it is in the interests of workers that the better unions do.

Won't find much of a paper trail the paper shredders have been working overtime and the verbal witness is probably as corrupt as the person being investigated.

We need an inquiry as to why Graham doesn't edit general section articles for typos. This stuff goes up on the National Forum board - goodness knows what newcomers must think.

(Not having a go at you, Belly. I'm a typo maker extraordinaire and we all let them get past at times...I can't understand why Graham can't quality control the headings)

Advice may I suggest you use Firefox browser the spell checked should be on by default if not just say so and someone will be able to help turn it on.

MISC - If a person understands what you have written easily that is the main thing, NO ONE IS PERFECT I am sure we can find mistakes in everyone's comments from time to time.

If you turn on the spellchecker at least most of them will be picked up.

inqyuiry shows as an error straight away and has the correct spelling when using Firefox.

Honestly try to read this, you'll be amazed. Don’t try and concentrate to work it out ... just read it, totally weird!

cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg.
THE PAOMNNEHAL PWEOR OF THE HMUAN MNID Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Amzanig huh?

p.s. Jeez, the spell-check goes berserk on THIS one!

I liked this one found it a few years ago.

Yes, Philip S, I understand all that. I've read stuff like that before - as lnog as the frsit and lsat letetrs are wrhee tehy sholud be, then one can mkee snese of thigns.

...my point was mainly in relation to the titles of general section discussions. Often there are the most horrendous typos and spelling mistakes in the headers. I don't particularly give a toss about the mistakes in the body of the thread, but I'm wondering why the bold-lettered titles are allowed to go through with no corrections.

(sorry, Belly, for derailing, but I've been noting this for a while)

Poirot,
YesI saw a typo in the heading of an article I put up recently and was dismayed. I normally read my postings but missed this in the heading.

Phillip S,
You lost me when you mentioned 'browser' because i have yet to come across any PC user that can tell me what a browser is precisely. We are expected to KNOW. Now my dictionary defines browse as to read through a book. Browser, a noun, an animal that eats leaves, twigs and shoots from bushes and trees, as distinct from one that grazes on grasses. Google no help. Wikipedia introduction and definition of Web Browser is about as clear as mud. Seems to be something entirely abstract, not related to reality. Like a description on a wine label.

I have spell check on 'word' but cannot get spell check when posting on forums like OLO. On word it is easy, click tools and then spell check.

Belly,
Sorry, back to topic. Yes there is a need for an inquiry into Unions. The recent revelations about the HSU and the AWU highlight the need. I see this morning that Abbott has promised an inquiry if elected.

Recently someone said, (may have been Butch), that Unions should be subject to the same checks and balances as public companies. Worth thinking about?

Banjo - Quote "Google no help" you don't know the meaning of browser so go to Google and put in "meaning browser" the 2 very first entries will tell you.

Quote "read through a book" or read through an internet page.

Here https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/

The spell checker works for nearly all forums I use and email etc

Belly, no matter how you spell it we need a bloody inqyuiry or something into unions NSW. My partner lost her union coverage when she had no option other than resign from the HSU East. Now O'Farrell has them under the gun with sackings and forced resignations. As recently as Friday she rang me saying they want her back in the union and become a delo. I said until Thomson and Williamson are banged up, my advice is tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine,
Need some decent unions leaders with intestinal fortitude like Brian Parker from the CFMEU. Clean out the conservative sell outs and Uncle Tom's po the criminals, and then and only then might the union movement return to representing the Australian worker.

GY is entitled to his chuckle
So is Philip s.
It is no ones fault but mine.
I do run fire fox.
And spell checker.
It let me down, but will except my mistake, it is OK rather be me than hold the views of Philip s.
First, let me say I an ex union official, And ALP activist, demand consideration be given to Abbott,s demands.
For the good of both movements.
I set myself these targets as an official.
Total service, even if it meant 17 hour days.
Total commitment to members,honesty,and valued most of all the trust and friendship of my members.
A side effect? the friend ship and trust of most bosses.
I believe we have too many unions, those such as the HSU are forever tainted,and should go.
Yet not alone,others have defrauded members, no worse crime for a unionist.
Growth in uninformed views, from hundreds of thousands of Philip s,fellow travelers will be fed by any failure to truly fix and punish offenders.
A Union, most of them, is the insurance you take out to insure not your life car or house but your work life and income.
Some clearly, have been run by thugs.

I need the second post, to highlight why I think this way.
SOLIDARITY.
Many have heard me put that word down here.
It once meant something.
It today, in both movements, stands in the way of improvement and continuing accountability and growth.
It is a blanket used to cover filth.
I have no respect for Abbott.
But if Labor fights his wanted reforms, they fight two thirds of the country, in defense of the indefensible.
And put bricks on the chest of the union movement.
ONLY accountability and openness can help unions.
SOLIDARITY, is the reason HSU and other union theft is not heard of till too late.
It too CONSIDER THIS! lets criminals miss use union members funds, THEN HIDES IT IN THE NAME OF SOLIDARITY!

Belly, what effect does the close organisational connection between
the unions and the Labour Party have ?

Does corruption flow both ways between them ?
What I see could be a problem is that a union official who has made
minor corrupt decisions as a union official and then becomes a member
of parliament, comes with a mindset for even bigger corruption.

Dear Poirot,

The discussion is about corruption, and there are three examples of corruption in spelling in the title. Possibly Belly's subconscious created a title consistent with the discussion.

Belly,
I seem to remember that you posted to me something along the lines of "The AWU is not a leftist union. It remains our best."
I am not terribly familiar with who's who of unions, but weren't Blew-it and Wilson part of this union? Do you still stand by this statement? And your old mate Bill Shorten for that matter? Not that I think he's tied up in it, just that he's a goose. (See insiders from Sunday)

I have always thought that corruption runs in the very fabric of many Australian unions.
Bazz,
I imagine that it does absolutely flow both ways. At the very least to jobs for the boys. One glance at the front bench makes that obvious

Bazz, we could ask the same questions of the Liberal Party with their close connections with big business. Here in NSW we have the O'farrell government bending over backwoods to please their mates in big business. There is a bit of a smell about Packer and a second casino.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-26/critics-take-aim-at-sydneys-second-casino-complex/4335798

This stinks. Add CSG approvals and the 98% big development approvals by O'farrell.

Paul,

The pathetic attempt to compare the Labor links with the unions to coalition links with big business is a nice try, but with no cigar.

Firstly the unions breed corruption with their feeble oversight,
Secondly the unions even though representing only 18% or so, get 50% of the voting delegates to select MPs, and directly fund the ALP from members contributions.

The coalition with its rational economic policies gets the support from business, but is beholden to none.

Belly - Quote "will except my mistake, it is OK rather be me than hold the views of Philip s" What view do you object too?

Check these settings.
Tools down to - options -> advanced -> down left to general (tab) -- down on left make sure "Chck my spelling as i type " has the green tick

The problem is that the spell checker does not work in the
" Discussion title " section but it works in the "Thread post part"

G'day BELLY...

Enquiry into Unions - why ? There's so much entrenched corruption in this country, it's hard to identify any institution that's clean ! Even the churches for goodness sake.

Seems wherever you turn, there's allegations from many citing instances of corruption, malfeasance, misfeasance, and all the other sorts of criminality, so what's the point !

I've had this joint I really have !

According to the Corruptions Perceptions Index of Transparency International dealing with 183 countries Australia does fairly well. New Zealand is tops, and Somalia is 183. Australia is 8.

david f - that could just suggest western countries are better at hiding there corrupt activities.

"Transparency International" give anyone enough money or have something incriminating on them and they will say what you want them to say.

MOTL AWU is far from left.
Lets NOT GET CONFUSED Williamson is head thief from the HSU.
Few understand, my beloved AWU died about the time of Gillards ex boy friend and Blew it.
Both maggots, but the very union at that time was near death.
I left it briefly at that time to become senior TWU site delegate.
I came back to drive the amalgamation.
Without Bill Shorten, then his successor, it may have died.
But union corruption has been around for a long time.
O SUNG WO, WHAT CAN I SAY?
If only more knew as you do the reality.
I could turn this thread in to a very long list of Conservatives faults and crimes.
But my purpose is set.
Bazz was it? in any case SOLIDARITY, A SWEAR WORD FAR WORSE THAN SAYING SOME ONE IS THE PRODUCT OF UNWED PARENTS, IS IN USE TO HIDE CRIMES IN THE ALP.
A member for Swansea in prison, for crimes including pedophilia, was hidden.
Union heads, not always good one, get seats in Parliament , for being useless at their jobs.
Bill shorten, and Steven Conroy held Gillards knife.
I would if asked, once have said Shorten was this country,s hope.
In truth he will lead and I am unsure.
He has a brilliant intellect.
This is my view, Labor was born from the union movement.
It is time both parts of one movement learned the public, if they truly understood the degree of control unions have over the party both would be in danger of death.
In the historic Roth bury riot.
Mine owner Brown starved his workers, police patrolled the village bashing workers and even wives.
A hight court Tory judge ruled in Browns favor, in a stunning insult to justice.
Then inherited Browns mines after his death, worth look.
Conservatives have no halos.

spending millions to find out the heart of man is corrupt is a total waste of money. We already know it. The union family are among the worse while claiming that they are for the worker. What a joke.

A bitter and nasty post, runner, but not even close to true.
A few of us will understand the truth about todays inquiry in the actions of the past ALP in NSW.
True scum, no other would is adequate to tell of those currently being uncovered.
Not the whole, but far too many, betrayed the ALP/UNION movement.
A creeping unstoppable thought that the whole is infected is an understandable result.
SOLIDARITY, feeds this view.
However as has been said, by an ex police officer, o sung wo, here.
Corruption is every place.
I am willing to bet, tell me you think differently, that the current inquiry will see most walk free.
Cash buys justice, or blinds it.
Even independent commissions to inquire in to justice and wrongs fail, no surprise, to deliver results.
National and state police internal review committees fail, far more often than not.
Some ex police own hotels far beyond their normal means of purchasing.
So?
I propose a new national Crime and corruption group.
Given powers that leave it free of political interference.
Power to look in to all corrupt crimes, prosecute, sentence, and control early release and such, kill corruption.
IF we hide our sides wrongs we in the end deny true justice and true improvements.
IF we let the soft tell us of human rights we say victims, us, do not matter.

An inquiry into a Union whilst we have a federal Labor Government ? That's like putting the inmates in charge of the institution.

One of the unfortunate side effects of Union/Labor crime is it gives the elitist in society an opportunity to attack workers rights. A weak Labour movement, with lost of industrial and political power, will see the conservatives in the ascendancy. Once in power these elitist will set about destroying many of the hard won right workers struggled to achieve through unionism over many years.
Abbott in government will combine with the conservative states to bring back Howards work choices, because of the actions of a few labour criminals workers will be powerless to resist.

The laws that give unions monopolies over industries, and the weak oversight legislation fosters corruption like the no marriage rule and church secrecy nurtures child rape.

The Union / Labor crime is weakening the left. The question is how to deal with it.

Option 1: do nothing and paper over the cracks, and see more of the same, or,
Option 2: have an inquiry, and make the unions transparent and open to make corruption difficult with legislation similar to companies.

Somehow, and I don't pretend to know how, the constitutional link
between the unions and the labour party must be broken.
There will always be an emotional link, but the problem that I see is
the career link.
How can a labour government possibly undertake an inquiry into the
union movement, they are the same organisation.

The link between the liberal party and business is far more tenuous.
The connection between lawyers and the liberal party is much stronger
than the business link.
Probably more important is that business and then liberal party is not
considered to be a career path.

Bazz believe me, you got that wrong.
I would rather stick to the theme, but All party,s have support no cleaner than union support for Labor.
A real understanding,not the public view of a monster union movement terrorizing bosses is an advantage of any inquiry.
Remember Abbott wants accountability, so do I .
But know, Modern unionism, carry,s the bag for past extremist ones and their acts.
Too for current extremists unions who WRONGLY believe screaming and shouting, even constructing issues, recruit new members.
Only a few, very few but very strong, unions are like that, always extreme ones.
Bosses actually call on my union, deal openly, honestly, we us, to keep the fools out.
20 in every hundred are in unions.
In truth it is not going to get better until a review of practices is held.
HSU bashed and rolled its members, for a generation, it failed to even serve them.
Even see thousands for year after year.
I at a mass protest against work choices, had to take on their role for free, to get replacement hospital staff uniforms, last issue was years before.
Not every union is HSU like
I will now try to put the link between union and Labor in focus.

While calling for the sins of the trade union movement to be judged including prison terms, please research what I say.
From its birth unionism has been targeted as something dirty, the Tod puddle Martyrs found them selves convicted and sent here for? wanting a fair wage.
Opposed always by the self interest of bosses, in Britains case land owners who virtually own the workers too.
In the Australia we heard of the Eureka Stockade, we fly the souther cross with pride.
But very few know of the harsh British view of those who work for a living.
The Ned Kelly story is vilified or set on a pedestal, but the way his mother was treated speaks of the petty thuggery of police in those days.
A shearers strike bought about, under the tree of knowledge the birth of the ALP.
a 7 year old child who took water to the chained up men under a tree after the end of the stockade fight, formed two unions latter in life.
One went on to become the AWU.
First party ruled you must be unionist and unions ruled the child of unionism.
We grew and matured, not long ago 60% of seats at conference had to be union ones, folk with real potential to be great politicians stood aside so imported uninterested in politics workers could vote then return to the pub.
Even now, 50% must be union!
And unions support for Labor is in man power and cash millions.
Remember, we are not all criminals, not just for being different than our opponents.
I think we resemble most a breast stroke swimmer emerging from a septic tank just now.
A remoteness from what ordinary folk think has engulfed us.
NSW, what could be said?
HSU, knifing of Rudd.
Conservatives will say that was needed yet I know it was power miss used against those who make up the numbers that gives the power, union members Labor voters.
In the end all people are in my view equal, or should be, every crime deserves a time in the sin bin.

G'day there BELLY...

You well know that I don't support your politics, but as someone inferred earlier, all or most unions are corrupt is absolute nonsence. Unions per se, are no more corrupt then any other formal organisation.

In one of your previous posts, you stated inter alia '...ex police possess large houses/even hotels far beyond that, which their previous salary level could possibly afford or justify...' or similar words.

If you were to put questions to any of these ex coppers, apropos this apparent fiscal paradox or incongruity, you'd be answered thus -'...I've had a lot of success over the years at the races. Or, my wife and I, we've made some really good investments in minerals, during the mining boom...' ?

And occasionally, the latter can be true. I knew a bloke (uniform member) who could put a Scot (my profound apologies to the Scots!) to shame with his personal thriftiness ! Sufficient, to purchase a Licence and Hotel, I think not ?

In conclusion, corruption exists everywhere. I reckon we've all got a bit of 'crim' in us - how many biro's have I taken home from work ?
And when in uniform, you always got your stuff at 50% off at Maccas,
in fact at most of the 'all-night' greasy Joe's also. And when needing new tyres, you'd always call-in to your local tyre place in uniform...Is it corruption ? Yes, I suppose it is ?

I guess the only real difference, you don't actually ASK or DEMAND a discount ! Incidentally, most of these places give the SAME discount, to all emergency services. The Ambo's Fireies and coppers.

I 'think' someone said herein, corruption is embedded in the human heart. I suppose it comes down to how much control you exercise over your own personal immorality and dishonesty, juxtaposed against your own personal levels of probity and morality.

Dear Belly,

Unions have preserved capitalism. Without unions powerful enough to demand reasonable wages worker's pay would be low. With worker's pay low goods would accumulate as many could not buy them. Warehouses were bulging during the depression of 1929 with unsold goods.

Unions have introduced such innovations as mass medical care. It was part of union contracts before it became a government function.

It was a big fight for workers to have the right to have unions. Scabs, hired thugs, detective agencies like the Pinkerton's and other hirelings of employers have beaten up and murdered workers who wanted unions. Joe Hill was falsely convicted of murder. His real crime was to attempt to encourage workers to form unions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hill tells his story. He is one of many martyrs to the union cause. Women played a role in encouraging workers to organise. http://www.aflcio.org/About/Our-History/Key-People-in-Labor-History/Mother-Jones-1837-1930 tells the story of one of them. We remember those who died fighting for Australia although some who died were fighting to establish rule over other people as in the Boer War. The Labor Party should remember the heroes of the union movement.

While working in the US I tried to form an engineer's union but was unsuccessful. We had a meeting at my house. Many told me that they would join a union if I could form one. One person alone cannot form a union. It requires workers getting together in solidarity. I am glad there are people like Belly.

There is corruption in unions as in many other human organisations. However, unions have done a tremendous amount of good and we are much better off for having them.

David f yes from you, o sung wo, and one who slips my mind comes true wisdom.
And mate 2 full years after I left work my strong friendships remain, with past members and bosses.
Make no mistake, I LOVE MY UNION.
But demand every union get in to this century.
HSU is no orphan, others have done as badly, both theft and lack of service.
A True union official must work for the true reward, trust of the members before the wages, it is no ordinary job, love it or leave it.
Dave right now, Sussex Street, has damaged my party,s brand, so too have some unions.
Mixing with every day Australians would tell union heads, and the ALP, we must see justice, action, and an end FOREVER to bludging on membership.
And an end to giving Liberal/Conservatives a free ride.
Who else can the battlers call on if not us.
The contamination of both groups,by white shirt brigade is hurting us all.

There is absolutely no question. Some Unions have done good. The sad part is that many Union bosses & their underlings have succumbed to corruption. Whilst pretending to stand up for the blue collar workers they have actually been in the cot with industry leaders. Some big song & dance & couple of Dollars a week more for the workers & they were ready to put themselves onto the Hero pedestal. A bit like Hollywood, plenty of colourful facade but nothing behind it & the invisible power brokers rake in the dough.
I recall as if it were this morning when a federal Nurses Union President told me she'd do anything not to cooperate with the then Qld Borbidge Government.
I don't she she was lying judging by the state of Qld Health today.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/abolish-labor-factions-says-party-elder-john-faulkner/story-fn59niix-1226530094780
This link is not to rebut Indy, he does that himself.
A little, and it is little, knowledge can be dangerous, mixed with a fantasy can fall on its face.
For my fellow left of Abbott voters it is evidence my thoughts are not alone.
ANY fair review of this mans life, a left faction Labor man,must conclude he has always been one of our best.
His words, more refined than mine, say much as I have.

Good to see one of Labor's better members John Faulkner telling it like it is. Here in NSW its business as usual with the Sussex Street Mob still firmly in control. A bit of window dressing from Robertson with the sacking of a couple high profile criminals.
You only have to look at the Craig Thompson Affair to see Labor is not serious about crime in the organisation.
Bring back Big Norm Gallagher, paid us a visit a few times, not a man to be messed with. Norm looked after his members and at the same time looked after Norm.

Belly said;
Bazz believe me, you got that wrong.

You got me puzzled, you said I had it wrong and then went on to show how I was right anyway !

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/time-to-return-power-to-alp-branch-members-rudd-20121205-2aud3.html
This link is not off topic.
Those behind the Rudd dumping, and stopping true change in my party.
Are from a trade Union, my trade union, faction heads?
Far more than that!
No replica of the NSW filth, but as much in control of my party.
Assisted by the Sussex Street filth, *THAT WAS, NOT IS* in my state.
Victorian right NSW right QLD strength, Big Bill, no more than ten men in all!
Those ten held/hold still the real power of all members in NSW/QLD/VIC there is the heart of my problem.
I am in good company saying it must end.
I demand a stronger cleaner more accountable party and union movement.
And the death of that swear word solidarity, it covers up criminals child sex offenders and? it betrays every member of both groups.
A once proud word twisted to become something far from its once meaning.
Paul 1405, it is not longer clear if you are joking or not.
Norm Galliger?
What a grub, a maggot, the thing was never a man, extremist left who took bribes and sold his membership out.
No better than HSU.

Belly my china, remember the BLF and Normie Gallagher?

I vividly remember my father’s rage when the Labor government deregistered it in the mid 1980’s. That union should have a statue erected for the civil duty it engendered in saving historical Sydney. Norm was caught supposedly getting free construction materials for a house he was building from large construction companies.

The first trial saw a verdict of guilty, but the jurors complained that they were coerced into finding him guilty. The appeal dismissed the verdict. We all know who wanted Normie gone, the big end of town, they got rid of Jack because he was getting in the way of them making outrageous amounts of money.

The old Labor party hung Normie for this supposed indiscretion. The current lot that call themselves Labor let the likes of Thomson and Williamson run the union for their own benefit.

Did you see John Faulkner’s comment on Sussex Street? As you and I know it has stunk for a decade….there might just be a chance of a popular movement to return Labor to their core values and flush the party of the immoral self serving lawyers and businessmen that hijacked it

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/labor-left-apologises-over-macdonald-20121205-2auzh.html
Sonofgloin well worth reading the other posts.
If not to keep up just to see what others are saying, I posted links including the one you speak of.
Other should not fall for the I loved Norm gushing.
He in part, enforced the need for factions.
Extremist left, on the job Bully, he and his ilk had to be contained, a party wanting to govern must want to do so for most not a minority.
I had no idea so much support for the stand I have taken would come from so many in both my party and the union movement.
But am happy it has,it is time for the clean out, no rebuilding can start before it.
I want it noted my support is not for Abbott,s witch hunt on Gillard.
I dislike them both equally.
And am considering my view on her knife men.
But the mud throwing is not supported by evidence.
In her case, she could well be guilty, nothing she does or says can be trusted.
But I can see why, other than being silly, she did no wrong.
Bazz sorry I was referring to your words Liberals are less likly to have factions or do criminal things.
Factions rule and the crimes are for more money.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2012/12/05/08/00/powerbrokers-should-not-dictate-to-mps
Yet another bright and shining star lights up my world.
Readers could do worse than read my 4 posted links.
A dream may yet come true.
True honest reform.
Turning the power broker Stallions in to Geldings!
Returning both party/unions, remember they are linked.
To the reason they exist, members.
Swan, along with others with blood on their hands decry the need for reform.
In doing so they become the needed dirt before the broom.

individual,

Remember when the Air Traffic Controllers were striking and the PM called in the Air Force - the only time the military was ever used as strike breakers?

It was the former head of the ACTU, Bob Hawke - the same Labor PM who organised "the Accord" which effectively stopped union wage growth for several years.

I think the notion of the ALP being soley controlled by unions is somewhat overstated.

All corruption should be investigated and charges laid - irrespective of whether it comes from Trade Unions, Corporations or individuals.

Come to think of it, why aren't all small businesses investigated? Shonky operators are exposed almost daily on those tabloid "current affairs" shows.

Or big businesses that suddenly go into liquidation, leaving huge debts while their Owners/Directors walk off with stuffed pockets?

Or the financial sector that caused the GFC but nobody was ever charged?

Or is this a politically-based question only?

Belly>> Other should not fall for the I loved Norm gushing.
He in part, enforced the need for factions.
Extremist left, on the job Bully, he and his ilk had to be contained, a party wanting to govern must want to do so for most not a minority.<<

You are wrong with the faction bit Belly. Labor always had factions, why do you think the DLP formed?

Do not short sell my opinions on the Australian Labor party. As I have mentioned to you on many occasions I grew up with Labor. Caldwell, Whitlam, Wran, they all dined at my father’s table.

Normie was a brute, a Marxist brute, but my point regarding the deflowering of him by the Parliamentary Labor party had more to do with their slowly evolving malleable fiscal philosophy than any misdeed by him.

I am against any commission into the unions as a whole, but their legal charter must be changed so the executive is accountable to an independent accounts auditor. Problem solved.

Wobbles>> I think the notion of the ALP being soley controlled by unions is somewhat overstated.<<

Wobbs, I don't agree with you often but you nailed it with that post.

Just for you Wobbles.

The 1949 Australian coal strike was the first time that Australian military forces were used during peacetime to break a Trade union strike. The strike by 23,000 coal miners lasted for seven weeks, from 27 June 1949 to 15 August 1949, with troops being sent in by the Ben Chifley Federal Labor Government to the open cut coal mines in New South Wales on 28 July 1949, with the workers returning to work, defeated, two weeks later.

One thing about the labour movement, Labor Party in Oz, love em or hate em, they sure throw up some colorful characters, never dull. Unlike the conservative mob who think Pig Iron Bob was the life of the party. "I did but see her passing by, But I shall love her till I die." Please.
The politician I most admire, no its not Bob Brown its Jack Lang. I wounder what the Big Fella would make of today's wozzy bunch, me thinks he would have em for breakfast!

Has anyone got an idea how much business steals from the GST each year I'm told its estimated to be around $13,000,000,000. They make Wlliamson and Obeid look like a pair of Goody Two Shoes.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Labor-factions-split-on-calls-for-deep-reforms-pd20121205-2PNVE?OpenDocument&src=hp6
Yes another link.
Most know my passion for this subject is aimed at leaving the filth behind, true reform for both party and its parent Unions.
Wobbles, we travel the same path, me with Axe in hand, clearing a path, you picking the fallen trees up and replanting them, hopelessly.
Sonofgloin jumps to defend you, yet he too claims youthful ties With a Labor Party long gone.
Uninformed, that is the very best any one can say about claims Labor and Unions are not locked together.
My link above, is one informed ALP insiders will not question.
Others, maybe wobbles and sonofgloin?, may need informing.
Bill Ludwig from QLD, members in most ALP branches, Bill Conroy and Shorten in Victoria, with help from the NSW right.
Drove Rudd from Office and Gillard in to it.
They along with such as Swan, want nothing to do with reform that will uncover that wrong, and take the power from men in numbers not much more than ten, and deliver it back to those who own it, party members.
Last, as in 1972 Labors faceless men are trade unionists.
And now is the time to free my party from them.

Paul,

Telling porkies again?

The GST is considered an efficient tax because it is difficult to evade. Your figures would give an evasion rate of about 25%.

Maybe your aliens told you? Or Brown eye Bob?

It was the former head of the ACTU, Bob Hawke - the same Labor PM who organised "the Accord" which effectively stopped union wage growth for several years.
wobbles,
That was a situation on par with war, that's how bad it was. None of it helped the collapse of ANSETT though & the many thousands of employees.

SM, Stalinist Lee told Commie Paul that Brown Eye Bob told her that an asylum seeker name Mo told him that business was ripping off the GST to the tune of $13,000,000,000. Can't be a porker cause Mo don't eat pork!
So you don't jump on your high horse the above is not true, I made it up, not the $13 billion, but the other stuff.
p/s If you need your wagon fixed I know this mechanic who will do a cheap job, no receipt, give you a quote instead. If you need a plumber or tradie of any kind its less for cash.

Paul,

Just need a shovel to remove the excrement you left on this thread.

P.S. check the figures you post. $13bn loss on GST is ludicrous.

Paul you contributions are no longer lucid they attract fly,s but are not related to truth.
I wish to explain my self.
While the thread said Unions, I hope my links show both Party and Union is one clearly.
Once the link, between trade union and government is insulted and miss used, some times very much more than is current here, only change can help.
Ignore if you must.
EVERY SIN of my movements is mirrored or has been in Conservative politics, the links are to bigger interests and involve much the same, self interested pigs.
My task is to scream the truth endlessly in to my movements ears, both the truth and these words.
*Thou are not a God*
If we look at Paul,s workers paradise the Soviet Union and its slave states we see the damage unions can do, if not true Representatives of workers.
Heads, of both unions and politics, living the high life on the back of those they enslave.
Even America, in the case of SOME unions, is seeing CRIMINALS prospering on the back of,or under cover of unions.
I never want SOLIDARITY to cover such true filth in my country.
The Union movement is mostly far from that.
But even I once claimed total ownership of the ALP by the right wing of the union movement.
How very wrong I can get.
I without sarcasm, again remind posters I live and breath my passion for excellence in both unions and party.
But tell it as I see it, no improvement without a broom.
I fear the hand that held the knife wishes to hold the broom, and am unsure such an act should get such a reward.
Maybe a newer poster may take up the unanswered challenge, to look honestly at Liberalism and its faults, older posters found it beyond them.

Well we have stalled.
Such threads do.
But the brighter of us know in their very DNA this country needs a strong ALP and A strong Liberal/Conservative party too.
I stand by my thought Labors rule is coming to an end.
Only Tony Abbott can save us.
But in my mind, looking back from a point in time after that defeat, this is what I see.
Open debate blaming the Rudd execution.
The same about the shocking HSU,
True debate about the roll of power brokers and the Sussex street Mafia/filth currently being judged before NSW anti corruption council.
How long before Labor can comeback after that?
Power brokers see a different sight.
Like me they know Abbott will be Newman on steroids!
And that he is going to flop.
They, power brokers, unlike me, think we only need wait.
Blind mice that that are, I DEMAND change, demand never again.
Let those who lead workers, and Labor, lead because their heart rules not pocket!

SM I'm sticking to my 13 bill. What's your number?
"Paul,s workers paradise the Soviet Union and its slave states. we see the damage unions can do, if not true Representatives of workers."
Belly you don't need to go that far to see the damage unions can do, if not true Representatives of workers. A bit closer to home, take a look at the AWU in the 1990's full of conservative sell outs and Uncle Tom's masquerading as union officials

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/its-faulkner-v-the-factions/story-e6frg75f-1226531611158
Yes another link, not however my words , not my biases.
Words and thoughts from within the ALP.
If you are interested enough, to read these links, you will see the words not writen, yet standing out between those that are, informative.
The true reason Rudd was dumped mid term, was power brokers seeking? power.
Gillard? betraying yet again, even her standards!
Flipping from left to right like a butter fly seeking the nectar of power.
Look too at Paul 1405, his contributions are those of a hurting and lost green.
Jumping ship , looking for a peoples Socialist party, and finding he has leaped on board a sinking row boat without oars or chance of floating.
Abbott like he has to hark back over 20 years, to a time extremist leftists unions held sway and invented his charges against the more balanced ones.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/taped-call-has-mogul-in-sticky-spot-20121206-2ayh3.html
Non Labor voters will be very disgusted by this evidence given in the NSW corruption investigation.
Labor voters will be too, if they bother to know.
Increasingly, we the public, build fences of APATHY between us and our politicians.
Behind that fence the filth acts with a freedom to be? thieving grubs, and wealthy ones, by betraying every one.
PRISON FOREVER LOSS OF EVERY THING THEY OWN!
Is not enough.
I know I am talking to my self, others have nothing to say here, APATHY rules.
We should take this with us from the events I talk of.
We normal Australians are marginalizing our selves by not demanding better from every politician.
I would write more about our apathy but just can not be bothered.

"Look too at Paul 1405, his contributions are those of a hurting and lost green. He has leaped on board a sinking row boat without oars or chance of floating."
Belly you enjoy pocking fun at The Greens and me, and that's you right to do so. I'm proud to say I was smart enough to be a wake up to Labor in NSW 20 years ago. Yes I jumped ship, unlike the mushroom you are, who has remained on board the garbage scow SS NSW Labor. I've dealt with 'Labour apologists' and 'worker sellouts' who like those Morris Dancers you often refer to, dress themselves up as the moderate faced workers friend and protector whilst at the same time selling those very workers down the drain under the guise of moderate industrial relations. The AWU was one union populated by 'worker sellouts'.
What do you have to say about John Robertson, like his predecessor The Hair Doo, he is nothing more than a Sussex Street stooge. If you are an ALP member what are you doing to clear the decks on that garbage scow? Nothing!

Paul,

You are sticking to your $13bn of GST fraud. I am interested in where you get that figure, as it is about 5 times the ATO estimate of the gap of about $2.5bn which is the difference between the maximum expected GST revenue and actual. This is made up from several sources, ie errors in inclusions of GST exempt items, legitimate tax avoidance measures, and a far smaller proportion being tax fraud, (much of which is by criminal gangs.)

Paul have you noticed?
It is in retaliation, here and in every recent thread you run second,in a two horse race.
Fact is I care not about the greens, they by their very existence, soak up the less useful of Labors lost.
The extreme left, smarting because Labor moved on, following the electorate not dreams that in reality are night mares.
And the wishy washy say any thing policy, makers of the truly lost.
You paddle you boat till it sinks.
You may be saved by HMAS Abbott
Or a squeaky voiced QLD lander.
But after it gets its act together, EVOLVES AGAIN Labor will be still the only party of change in this country.
You, not long ago turned your posts to taunting feeble attempts at humor.
No time to cry because you are not much good at it.

Belly, I am a fully paid up member of the NSW Greens and proud of it. You carry on about your beloved ALP, I bet your not even a member! So much for love.
Tomorrow I'll be at a Greens meeting, discussing an issue which is important to the people of NSW. Following that I will attend our end of year party hosted by our 6 MP's from the NSW Parliament.
What will you be doing to support the ALP, writing character references for your party heroes Macdonald and Obeid to take to the ICAC?
From your posts I see that you are more conservative than the average Liberal Party member I meet. Your not alone in that regard, the ALP is crawling with conservatives, I run into them every election.

Paul have fun at your end of year party.

Don't forget your tin foil hat.

I am looking forward to an imaginative reason why there is $13bn GST fraud.

Paul bitter nasty and wrong.
I can cover you with past and present ALP party membership cards.
What I can not do is make you look internally at your own side.
Much like almost every Liberal, Conservative, National, you have total blindness when it comes to doing that.
Each of us, should, in the name of the party they follow/serve do just that, look inward and demand better.
No one who truly understands politics, can not see the benefits in doing so.
And the very real dangers, in not doing it.
When will you take up your pen? to tell of the mistakes of your party that are and will pushing it to its death?
How do you explain for a party you claim will replace Labor, you numbers both in membership and votes has stalled?
Dream your dreams, but know, Australia will never embrace a socialist left lost greens or any such party.
Review this thread, head cleared of what ever ails you, see who posted it, see my theme.
Tell me, what am I hiding?
My purpose is truth/ a return to party ambitions not slugs.

Belly, you have disappointed me. It is characteristic of the major parties that they make noises about socialism or communism when a fairer society is advocated. The Greens are not socialist and your mentioning a socialist left when referring to the Greens is plain crap. If you want to criticise the Greens disagree with what they advocate. The Greens do not advocate government ownership of the means of production. To call them socialist is nonsense. I thought you were above name calling or dog whistling, but I was wrong.

Belly we were sailing along fine, but then you chose to post this:

"If we look at Paul,s workers paradise the Soviet Union and its slave states we see the damage unions can do, if not true Representatives of workers."
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 6 December 2012 11:35:25 AM

Belly, if you can find any rubbish posted by me earlier than the above insulting you, I humbly apologise.

Again I ask you. What is your take on John Robertson and party reform in NSW. Shortly we will be coming up to 2 years of O'Farrell, I fail to see any real improvement. The recent Heffron by-election was an op to bring in new blood, but a Sussex Street deal was done, and a old member of the party right Ron Hoenig got the nod. Sacking high profile criminals is not reform, its a reaction. Nor is attacking The Greens as some of the ALP right have chosen to do, I suspect the motive is to deflect attention from the problems their faction have caused the party. On the political side much of the opposition to O'Farrell is coming from The Greens not Labor, too busy with the internal fight and forgetting about the people.

The recent and very public alleged fraud cases involving trade union officials has helped the Australian public to understand the background of ALP/ Union relationships. There is now much evidence of some really ugly and non-democratic “enablers” which are now coming to public light.

The direct induction of full time activists into the bottom of the pyramid through legal firms, trade unions, NGO’s and the ALP can be now seen as a single amorphous entity. This has created career paths for many who would find it difficult to find work outside such an ideologically comfortable and structured environment.

This system has become one and the same “fabric”; it has been woven over time to provide for favors to be exchanged for compliance. This results in the progression through a system of cronyism and mutual dependency, of those currently “favored” to receive some sort of benefit. These benefits are currently exposed as including cash, positions of power, inside information, preferred supplier status, money laundering, career progression and immunity, just to mention a few.

Those now under public scrutiny are all products of this systemic cheating and they do what they do because the system they have created allows them to do it, get away with it and to cover it up.

Any Judicial inquiry into one aspect will be an inquiry into all

Spindoc as you know we now understand just who you are.
Indeed you name has been posted here and you are as described a Liberal Spin Doctor, paid to spin.
And we clash, often.
Here I agree!
No good mucking around!
Your mob, very much more than at any time in the past FRIGHTEN me under Abbott,s dysfunctional form of Liberalism.
But my whole point here is this.
Labor must reform.
I can, write 100 pages, of the same faults and needs in your party.
But that is not why I write.
Let me clear the decks first GREENS, Paul, of late you are taunting posters from all sides, then saying you are being funny.
This morning I drove 72 klm each way, to a comunity market.
Spent money on things I did not need, to help it continue.
A little bloke I value most rode on my shoulder, talking of you.
My inner self!
Constantly I reviewed my words in retaliation to you, my thoughts and reasons behind my insults about greens.
Here is the result.
Abbott, maybe his party with another leader, is about to govern.
So very much Labor could achieve will not get over the line.
Because the greens want all or nothing.
Hence? ONLY THE LIBERALS will introduce THEIR POLICY'S!
Greens could have stopped the boats LONG AGO, by saying OK Abbott will, let us get more refugees in return for?
Malaysia!
David! lee Rianon! do not convict me for thinking as our country thinks!
See the truth, AT LEAST 60 IN EVERY HUNDRED DISLIKE THE GREENS.
My thoughts here are so Labor can reform BEFORE electoral defeat, not after.

Why would we need an inquiry into Union Corruption, we all know they are corrupt.

Many know who is corrupt, but won't do any thing about it.

Inquiries are only supposed to be to help lawyers pay for new luxury cars aren't they. Has the law business been a bit slow recently?

While spindoc would like us to think the whole Labor/Union tree is infected, every fruit every leaf every action, it is not so.
Bought to the surface PAST acts like Sussex Street Mafias destruction of the NSW branch.
Its roll in Marshalling the power brokers knifing of Rudd.
The HSU scandal, and the yet unproved mud bucketing of Gillard as she was 20 years ago.
See it is years ago, full of bile, Paul 1405 infers John Robinson is tainted by that.
He in fact is a savior not other he stood for no power sell off and is a man of merit.
PAST, my constant issue is about a past, and the effects that WILL DRIVE A NEWER RESPONSIVE ALP.
I want that now not after Gillards troika.
I demand as I have for years an end to every power broker.
No reward, *LEADERSHIP* for the knife holders/power brokers.
A freedom for ALP to cross the floor.
Spin doctor, this chalenge is for you, do you claim no factions in your party?
No wrongs, are you man enough to rather than sink your teeth in to Labors neck tell us of the wrongs on your side?
My efforts will not stop, my party must reform, must bravely expel the filth .
Are the Liberals content to stay just a party of Abbott wingers without policy's?

Belly, when I asked you what Robertson was doing in regards to reform, you offered this: "He in fact is a savior not other he stood for no power sell off and is a man of merit." I fail to see the relation to party reform. Its quite plain if the ALP is going to reform it has to start in NSW, yet there is absolutely no evidence of any real reform taking place. Belly your call.

Paul we have reached the stage talking is time wasting, you killed one thread with childlike interventions.

And one you your self started had much that could have been said had you not turned it in to a joke.
Remember, it is you, who put the thought, you know every thing.
If you do not understand the roll played by JR, his out standing roll in his anti work choices bus trip, his stand again power sell off.
His standing aside the filth, his demands for reform and accountability.
I once thought of you as a rather ill informed mate, but mate still.
Of late you haunt threads, posters from both sides, with less than child like attempts at humor.
RUOK?
The bitterness is it the truth sneaking its head up? post Brown greens is even worse than I say.
I wish you well, but in truth bloke you must confront the change in you, not me.
Is free speech a greens policy? am I free to think as I do?
Do you claim that right but deny it to me?
You mob are in far more trouble than mine, we will dump our dirt, you are stuck with policy,s very few want.
Folk like me are massing, to demand we regain ownership of the ALP from power hungry filth.
Any plans to change greens policy.s to even near every day Australians?

Hi Belly,

I was very hopeful when the Faulkner-Carr-Bracks report
came out in 2010. I thought that reforms would be embraced.
However it seems that ambitious plans for rule changes
and more open processes are still being blocked by
established power players who hold the numbers and see no
incentive to change. Some people see this as a battle between
the Left and the Right in the party.

The "Yes, but not yet," attitude has got to change and perhaps
the opporunity may come next year at a special conference?
Pressure needs to be applied for it to happen.

Dear Belly,

You really haven't answered me. I didn't claim the Greens were liked by most people. That really is irrelevant. I claimed you were name-calling by labeling the Greens socialist. That is a cheap shot.

I am a member of the Greens because they regard what is happening to the environment of the planet we live on is the most important issue. I regard it as the most important issue so I am a Green.

You keep harping on the fact that the Greens don't get the vote that Labor and the Coalition get. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It does mean among other things that you can't make the bucks that an ambitious pol can make with Labor or the Coalition due to jobs for the boys. It means the Greens aren't getting the corporate contributions that the major parties thrive on.

Let Labor or the Coalition give greater weight to the environment than the Greens do, and I will be for Labor or the Coalition.

Coalition opponents of Labor have called Labor socialist rather than justifying their difference with its policies. By calling the the Greens socialist you are imitating their shoddy tactics.

My political leanings are not determined by the percentage of people who are for or against any party. They are determined by which party is concerned about what I think important.

Lexi thanks will answer you soon.
David f know mate I like you very much so.
And that my thoughts are, while unacceptable to you, truly held.
I mixed in strange places at work, saw the most extreme union supporting greens.
I know you did not start out socialist, but too, every refugee from the very left lives in your party.
Paul, and some times you, dislike my stated thoughts, believe me, you both would be SHOCKED to hear the views of middle Australia, and true Labor about the greens.
Lexi you are right, but this fight, to save the ALP has been going full tilt and I am not giving up.
This much is true, right or wrong, so very many will not vote for us until it is fixed, Faulkner is in my view a man we should look to, he should get the leadership, my party needs such a man.
Those who held the knife/hide the crimes do not deserve a reward.
I shudder in telling you this, the right, my life time right,betrayed my party.

Hi Belly,

I think the point I was trying to make is that given the integration and cross dependencies that have taken place over the past 40 years, there is absolutely no hope of reform. You can’t have the fox in charge of the hen house and expect the chickens to survive.

Sorry Belly but the ALP will have to start all over again and reinvent itself as a political party without the current parasitic relationships that are going to kill it off.

We have to accept that if the internal processes of what we now refer to as the ALP government, are regarded by some within the ALP as non-democratic, then the way we are governed is likewise non-democratic.

A rock and a hard place I’m afraid. Much as you may feel that I’m one of those right wing, sexist nut-jobs, I’m very much a centrist and do not relish the prospect under any circumstances of not having an effective opposition of any flavor.

Hi Belly,

Just trying to clear up a misunderstanding.

You said “While spindoc would like us to think the whole Labor/Union tree is infected, every fruit every leaf every action, it is not so.

I entirely agree with your statement.

I believe that the trade union movement has delivered more positive reforms than any other entity in our industrial and social history. I do not believe that there is any inherent evil in the ALP, the government or caucus.

What I am suggesting is that by completely integrating the induction/recruitment processes to provide political career paths, and by making each element co-dependent on the dispensation of favors, this has encouraged and fostered corruption of each element by the other elements. That is why you cannot unscramble the eggs.

Everything you are struggling to justify and explain on this thread is the symptoms and NOT the causes.

I hope this helps you understand where I’m coming from

Hi spindoc,

Nice to hear from you.

Dear Belly,

It is complicated. I have to admit that I don't know that
much about the inner workings of our political parties.
I've never belonged to any particular party. I've always
simply voted for the policies that made sense to me.
However, I imagine it's no easy task to reform any
party, especially as I stated earlier -
when established power players who hold the
numbers see no incentive to change. I truly admire your
perserverance and hope that you, and people like you,
will continue to try to make changes for the better.

Hi Lexi, likewise, it’s good to be back.

Belly, I know of none so loyal or dedicated to their allegiances as you. It’s a pity there aren’t more in your political domain that demonstrate such courage in support what you believe.

I have seen you go in to bat against extraordinary odds; I have seen much in you change to accommodate different perspectives. I don’t have to agree with your political perspectives and probably never will however; I think I speak for many when I say you have earned much respect.

I am truly distressed that you beat up on yourself because others have let you down. It is they who have broken faith with people like you, not the other way round. In my earlier posts I went the long way round to say what I’ve just said but I’m now glad I cut to the chase and said what I am feeling.

Whilst ever the components of the “fabric” of the ALP, Trade Unions, caucus et al are bound as a single amorphous blob, the backbone of your party cannot accommodate its real support base. It must be teased apart to restore the integrity of each component part. Only then will there be room for the Belly’s of this world.

I hope my meanderings are understood by you, I think you know what I’m getting at.

I look forward to jousting with a refreshed and invigorated Belly in 2013.

Belly you seem to confuse policy ie "JR, his out standing roll in his anti work choices bus trip, his stand again power sell off." That is not reform, nor is sacking a couple of high profile ALP criminals that is reaction, not reform. In NSW we have a major problem it's called the O'Farrell Government. A government which is set to attack the rights of ordinary people. Unfortunately the ALP fails to mount a creditable opposition, I suspect to busy with internal problems. Much of the attack on O'Farrell has been left to the 6 Greens in State parliament.
Can you offer any inkling of ALP reform? eg. meaningful changes to party voting, endorsement procedures etc.
p/s You give as good as you get when it comes to posting guff. Here's some YOU started on this thread: "If we look at Paul,s workers paradise the Soviet Union and its slave states." can you show where I said the Soviet Union was a workers paradise, in fact can you show anywhere on this forum where I heap any kind of praise on the Soviet Union. you made it up. Then there is this with the intention to mock and insult, calling me a "naked Morris Dancer". All water off a ducks back. I'll have you know I went out and got me some clothes, fortunately the shop only had a green pixie suit left, greens my colour, so now you can refer to me as Pixie Paul if you so wish. As I said to you before, I don't take anyone on this forum seriously, including myself, however some do see themselves as legends in their own lunchtime."
SM Greens end of year was great tin foil hats and organic tofu all round, not to mention the yummy mung beans.

spindoc you have my respect and understanding after those well thought out and put points.
Lexi it is so good to see you back.
Paul 1405, how do I start?
This thread, mine, is far from my first taking on my party,s owners and unions owners, it is much like that within both movements.
Yet you come in to sink the boot in.
I OPENLY target my party, unionism, you climb on board to hurl insults.
But become a wet hankerchief if I say it as I think.
Lets be honest.
Without Labor, even if the Labor right forces it to be a new Labor, Liberals rule forever.
You can not plant pumpkins and harvest spuds, your mob can NEVER grow in this country.
A thousand Bellys are out there, ten times that many wanting to say what they think, but lacking the conviction to put party first.
And the Guts to risk it.
I have mixed with those I take on, pure filth.
But each of us, on every side, must know if we do not get involved it gets worse.
Lining up at Labor conferences right now are white shirt and ties waiting for ONLY, their turn at the trough.
End union control of the party, end power brokers inside tracks set my party free.
AND LET UNIONS do what they do best, represent the members.

Belly you open another can of worms when you say: "End union control of the party, AND LET UNIONS do what they do best, represent the members."
In an ideal world that would be desirable, but with the amount of money unions pour into the ALP, as does business into the Liberal Party and to a lesser extent into Labor, that may not be achievable without restrictions. Those who make large donations to political parties expect something in return. I am opposed to union and corporate donations to political parties as I am opposed to large donations from individuals, such as the $1.6 million Wood's gave to The Greens, the $1m the CFMEU gave Labor or the $350,000 the Liberal Party was given by Minara Resources. Its also not acceptable to me for Village Roadshow to give Labor and Liberal $350,000 each. If as many large donors claim they are only supporting the democratic process and expect nothing in return, how would they feel about donating to a central fund for all parties to access through the Electoral Commission and restrict individual donations to a maximum of $10,000.

I OPENLY target my party, unionism, you climb on board to hurl insults.
The only insult is from YOU! I asked YOU
"You give as good as you get when it comes to posting guff. Here's some YOU started on this thread: "If we look at Paul,s workers paradise the Soviet Union and its slave states." can you show where I said the Soviet Union was a workers paradise, in fact can you show anywhere on this forum where I heap any kind of praise on the Soviet Union. you made it up."
Is this your answer: "Paul 1405, how do I start?
This thread, mine, is far from my first taking on my party,s owners and unions owners, it is much like that within both movements.
Yet you come in to sink the boot in." A small man posts a lie, a bigger man will admit to that lie, Belly which one are YOU?

A more pertinent question would be, "Do we need and inqyuiry in to Corporate Corruption?".

Paul not worth the effort, you claim sainthood, and just refuse to bend, rather like the dieing party you come from.
DP well bit different, while you are a green, you use words just as SOME Labor folk do.
In effect those words are very like this *Let us take the focus away from us and target the other side*
A sad state!, in doing that we refuse to face our faults,deny the chance to get better.
Here is a truth,the NSW Labor right, has 45 members.
25 in Obieds Terrigal,s bag.
After meeting with him in? yes Terrigal.
20 not in his camp, not for months not years but a decade.
The right out votes the left.
Once,under current ALP rules, a way to vote has been taken in cabinet, YOU MUST VOTE THAT WAY.
Once the grub and his 25 filth infested fleas say we vote this way, 25 votes.
Right and left had to follow
The whole right, 45 votes controls the left.
So every Labor MP in NSW, IS BUT A PUPPET TO DO AS TOLD
So with respect DP, and I do respect you,is that to be swept under the table?
Without the respect I once had for you Paul.
You sit in a corner chewing your own toes off, not because I target MY SIDE.
But because you understand reform will bring Labor defectors back.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/pyne-caught-redhanded-with-the-airbrush-20121210-2b4rq.html
Off topic?
Yes but a fair minded reviewer would have to see the very near deliberate lie this man uses, daily.

My last post in this thread,above, may look a little obscure to some.
I am not trying to take the heat off Labor or the unions.
Both are linked in the way I spoke of.
But before ignoring my , highlighting the lost nature of Pyne, consider the following.
I have repeatedly said, both sides are needed if we are to get the best government we can.
Blind foot stamping about Labors wrongs, while ignoring Liberal ones is not productive.
Pyne, Both Bishops, Abbott, and Hockey in my view, are not up to the better standards true Liberals once had.
Rudds destruction/kifing, in my view let standards slip on both sides.
IF we demand better, from both sides, we will get it, from both sides.
Both sides of the house owe much more than they delivered.
As my charges against Labor are true.
So too are those against the named front benchers on the other team.
No claim is made other than that, no criminal acts no fraud ,just a willingness to for get truth.

Dear Belly,

I couldn't agree with you more.
We do deserve better from our politicians
as watching "Question Time," in the last week
of Parliament clearly showed us.

I am a member of a union, but I've never been
put in a position where I've had to go out on strike.
And as I've posted in the past - although I'm
sometimes frustrated when the union does its job
badly, I support without reservation the right of all
working people to join together so as to preserve and
protect their livelihoods.

Of course, unions need to be snesitive to the realities of
modern economic conditions. Sectarian attitudes and greed
serve the cause of labour badly.

However, we are in critical times and Australia requires a
re-assessment of the relationship between labour and
capital, a re-assessment which takes into account the
politics of industrial democracy, profit, and long term
planning. The only way in which the country can work properly
is for management and labour to co-operate with one another,
not condemn one another. Here's hoping that 2013 - will be a
better year.

Dear Belly,

The following is part of what I got from Christine Milne of the Greens today:

"Dear friend,

The Earth is on track towards a 4-6°C temperature increase by the end of this century, a rise that would deliver ‘an almost unrecognisable planet’.

That’s the news from the UN climate negotiations just ended in Doha.

Scientists have warned that without a rapid change to our energy systems, our chance to stave off the most extreme global warming scenarios will vanish.

Keeping Greens in Parliament is more important than ever before. Please donate now to support the Greens' 2013 re-election fund.

It’s not too late - But the changes needed require leadership, and the ability to stand up to big business and vested interests who will not consider anything beyond short term profit.

We know that Labor and the Liberals can’t be trusted on this critical issue.

The Greens are the only ones who will take the challenge head on. It’s only because the Greens held balance of power in both houses of the federal Parliament that we now have a price on pollution, giving industry a clear signal to change. We negotiated multi-billion dollar funds to boost renewable energy and protect wildlife across the nation."

Regardless of how unpopular the Greens are and regardless how many leftists or others you don't like who are in the Greens she is right.

The Greens are the only ones who will take the challenge head on. Labor and the Coalition simply are more concerned with getting and keeping power.

Thanks Lixi, some thoughts and memory,s I can not share here,from my working days.
I can say while forever proud of mine, some unions need to refocus on service.
David you always have my respect, I remember you told us your age, and that you know a bit about the subject.
While Liberals, under current leader and his controllers, arenot eco friendly.
Turnbull was./is
Labor kick started your party, it gave you the Franklin Dam victory,we had our nose rubbed in it for the NT National park.
And I claim on Bob Carr,s behalf, more new national parks the ANY OTHER state leader.
David, never ignore the many heads your party shows the world.
Please do not discount public feelings toward your two leaders, one hot eyed and with a sign not seen but there, around her neck saying *Avoid at all costs*
The other? her sign says *find the channel changer*
Sorry but how can I say this without offending you? is truth justified even if it hurts?
*Australia would be better if the greens did not want carbon reduction*
*Fact is many oppose every thing the greens support*
Poll, truth will out we are going to need a miracle to see Labor returned.
And if as I see it a double dissolution election follows.
Both Labor and Liberal will target greens.
David in my view voters if given the chance would vote to abolish upper houses for no other reason than to get rid of greens.
I have much more to say about power brokers and filth , some times one is both.
Infesting my party feeding from it killing it.
Labor is better than that, we will trounce them.

Dear Belly,

Fact is that many oppose everything the Greens stand for. I don't argue that. We agree on that. So what!

That doesn't mean the Greens are wrong. That just means the Greens are unpopular. Tell people what they don't want to hear, and people will not like it even if it's true.

Fact is there is no way you can tell people that they have to change their ways to make a sustainable future and have people like you.

My age means nothing as to whether I'm right or wrong. It does not deserve respect as such. I just happened to choose some long lived ancestors and have apparently inherited their genes. My father was a heavy smoker and lived to 92. His older brothers were heavy smokers and drinkers and both died at 98. My mother's grandfather lived to a 107. Outside of hay fever I have no medical problems and expect to live out the year.

I am glad that Labor has declared the national parks in the seas around Australia. I am glad that Turnbull is concerned with the environment. If the major parties both had the concern with the environment the Greens had the Greens could disappear for all I care. A political party as just a means to an end. It is just an arrangement to get what you want. It only deserves loyalty as long as it is working for what you want. Your loyalty to Labor is apparently because it used to represent the workingman. It is backed by many unions. As far as I am concerned it shafted the workingman when Keating pushed economic rationalisation and is still shafting the workingman even though it has the name of Labor. Like the Coalition it gets big bucks from the corporations and is going to do what they want. One thing they want is to be allowed to destroy the environment without interference. They get that to a large degree.

What Doha has shown us is that most of the world will do nothing to reduce or even slow the growth in CO2 emission. If Aus reduced emissions by 100% it would not make a measurable difference.

Juliar's / green's plan which sees emissions in Aus increase by 7.5%, and moves production overseas is a complete joke.

David you should be concerned about what others think.
Such as Shadow Minister feed on our mistakes.
You tell me, and by inference the greens, care little about others opinions.
Yet just as Labors current problems are doing real damage to the party.
Your sides views are unacceptable to 88 in every hundred voters.
How can your party grow if it knowingly, supports so few,and opposes so many.
It surely is clear, much more can be gained right now, by consensus, and nothing post Liberal victory.
Greens are unable to use this high water mark in their power.
So once lost it never will return.
Staying on subject, the investigation under way in NSW will drench Labor in the filth these fleas made.
Our comeback can not start until true reform does.
Who is not just a little afraid of Abbott as PM?

Dear Belly,

A party can gain votes by telling people what they want to hear rather than what they stand for. That is the way both Labor and the Coalition have gained power. Power gained by betraying a party's principles is the proverbial poisoned chalice. Better not to have power than to lie to get it. If the people do not like what the Greens advocate then we won't get the votes. However, maybe we can wake a few people up to what is happening.

We are concerned about what is happening to the planet and want others to share that concern. To continue the exploitation at the present level and in the present manner is destroying the future. To change lifestyles and habits is not an easy thing. That is what we are asking. We want others to be concerned about the world they are leaving for their descendents. If we soft-pedal that concern to gain votes it is better that we dissolve.

I can't speak for the other Greens, but I would rather stay where we are or fall back rather than make nice and lie to gain power.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/director-at-white-energy-kept-quiet-on-obeids-icac-hears-20121211-2b7wt.html
Unfortunately few read links.
Just as unfortunately few understand the whole issues involved but set out to *inform* others they are wrong.
This link stands out, each of us could do far worse than understand this NSW inquiry.
Yes the hands that took NSW Labor to its lowest, had friends, in high places like corporate lawyers and biggest of big business.
I fear behind the scenes our country is just as corrupt as any third world or middle eastern one ever was.
David this theme needs airing and exploring, far more than your inability to understand politics is about numbers.
About to representing the whole , not minority's within the electorate.
You, in saying as you do, then saying the big party,s lie, are avoiding a truth.
The Greens, by your own words, are an anti Democratic organization.

Davidf,

Having read the greens policies, all I see is a collection of populist policies, to give everything to everyone, with little or no indication of how they would be implemented or how much they would cost.

Labor at least tries to cost its policies, but always ends up blowing the budget.

It's an ongoing problem isn't it.
Labor spends, Liberals cut.
And so it goes on. However, perhaps I am
naive, but I didn't realise that the role
of governments was to save money. I thought
it was to provide services.

Dear Shadow Minister,

The reality is that the Greens will be very unlikely to ever get into power. I wish they would concentrate on the environment. My hope is that they can make the country sufficiently conscious of the need to avoid destroying the environment that the major parties will adopt better environmental policies. I really don't care for much of the populist stuff or hope the Greens get into power. My hope is that those in power care more about caring for the environment.

Dear David F.,

I fully agree with your concern about our environment.
This country requires a re-assessment of the
relationship between labour and capital, a re-assessment
which takes into account the politics of industrial
democracy, profit, and long-term planning which allows
for the proper protection and preservation of our
environment. As I've stated previously, the only way in
which the country can work properly is for management and
labour to co-operate with one another, not condemn one
another. However, the sad truth is that condemnation is
the only language that some people appear to understand.

David, as a fellow Green I could not agree more. Populist politics has its devotees, tell the people what they want to hear, rather than what they need to hear. The Greens as a grass roots party must never fail to listen to the people, particularly those in society who have no voice. We both know the political agenda in Australia is driven by powerful vested interests. For some power is everything and principles mean nothing, the major parties are full of such political animals. Many join political parties loaded up with ideals and principles, but on discovering the reality of the party, either leave in disillusionment, or become one of those unprincipled political animals. As the party political animal are, the more ambitious, the more ruthless, they tend to be the ones who rise to the top. They then go on to steer the party in the direction which best suits them and their cronies, always pandering to vested interests and embracing populism.
"The reality is that the Greens will be very unlikely to ever get into power." We are a relatively new party, still growing and developing. 'never' is a very long time, what is seen as radical today may well find favor tomorrow. This could have been said about the Labor Party in its informative years, a principled party, and very much so, filled with radical members with some very radical ideas. Naturally there were those who said the Labor Party. with that radicalism of their's will never replace the major parties The Protectionist Party or The Free Trade Party.

Dear Paul1405,

I don't want the Greens to get into power. If they do than people will join the Greens as a career choice to get a job, contract or other goody. The Greens will then become as corrupt as Labor and the Coalition. I want the Greens to be a means to arouse concern for what is happening to the planet. If they get into power their main concern will be maintaining power as has happened with Labor and the Coalition.

The Greens have been rightly criticised by Shadow Minister for their populist policies. Political parties are a means to an end.My end is to get Australia to adopt good environmental policies. If it does then there will be no need for the Greens as far as I am concerned.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2012/12/12/15/01/ashby-acted-in-combination-with-others
It would be slack and lack honesty to ignore this link, I give my views about my sides faults,and CONSTANTLY challenge non Labor voters to contribute some things that concern them about thier party.
No one ever took up the challenge.
This ruling CLEARLY SHOWS A SCANDAL WITHIN LNP NATS and LIBERAL PARTY,S.
The only charge that now can be laid against Slipper is his sexuality and he was just like that in his 9 terms as member of the above groups.
Those enjoying my forthright views about pure filth in my party should too see improvement needed after this failed trap.
Pyne has much to answer for.
Lexi, I know how you feel, BUT after others join and demand the changes I do, after our wounds are inflicted, the new ALP that rises will be something to be proud of.
I see no need not to vote Labor, not while Abbott is our opponent, but a true need to NEVER STOP asking for accountability.
Slippers win says it all, you will hear only more abuse from some here but much dirt needs uncovering, and SM, we need not go back 20 years to find it!

I6 may not be the case for every one.
But in all truth I get no joy in hurting David, and a once mate Paul.
The truth however is far different than the story you both tell your selves.
Apart from Tasmania, a lost Parliament, in need of? LIBERAL GOVERNMENT FOR TEN YEARS!
AND YES i MEAN IT.
That great state is hurting, as the wrong ALP leader there gives control to the greens.
ALP has always been the party of CONSERVATION .
Greens are far more than thaT , BUT ACHIEVE LITTLE.
Both greens say they want to get reform, politics is about making things happen not sitting with thumbs in mouth trying to make majority's think like you.

Dear Belly,

What do you know about the following:

http://newmatilda.com/2012/12/11/abbott-slush-fund

I know that I'll get criticized for quoting New Matilda
again by certain people. However, a friend referred me to this particular issue.
Apparently it's based on a book by an author -
Margo Kingston, "Still Not Happy, John." published in 2007.

Here's a brief summary of the issue, Lexi - from 2003 by Margo Kingston.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/22/1061529330032.html

Lexi poirots link will help you.
And while new Matilda is not always a good source it is in this matter.
One Nation and Pauline Hanson won rapid support.
From all sides, while some will, and I think you and Poirot fit think this, that she was a bit racist.
She actually spoke for many of this country's voters.
Her meetings drew big crowds.
Labor and Liberal lost votes to her.
Slush fund? dislike the term, never saw it used in the AWU.
BUT Abbott ran one, from big Liberal supporters he single handedly put two one nation people in prison.
Then stole the policy,s of one nation, essentially what we see as Tea Party policy,s.
A day of reckoning is coming for the extreme right.
Trust the voters they usually get it right.
Now slush fund, trust me, my beloved AWU was in other hands back then.
Very bad hands, service did not exist, the nearest I senior Delegate, came to seeing an official for 3 years was bumping in to one having lunch, 300 meters from my workplace, with no intention to visit us.
An officers election fund was born under the new leaders of the union AFTER an amalgamation.
Bill Shorten drove a far better union, after its true near death.
No donation bay weekly sub from wages of union officers, ever went in to that fund.
It exists to see money to help them get elected IF challenged and is returned every 4 years if no challenge takes place
continued

Now why do I think a day of judgment is coming to the extreme right?
First Labors loss seems unavoidable.
High expectations have been made by Abbott based on non core promises to be dumped after the election.
And a total lack of the ability to gaze at their own belly button, to self judge
Victoria is much more than likely to return to Labor, an extraordinary thing after one term.
NSW and QLD will be worthy of watching two years in to a Liberal federal government.
Slush fund? we can see a disregard for truth in the AWU slush fund case.
It was a fraud by maggots on the union, the givers of those funds.
The union DID NOT EVER KNOW until it was too late.
The question has to be, why did those firms give so much, why did they not check its honesty.
I took $1.000 offered not requested donations at this time of year for a mass Christmas party.
A bus load of Children disabled kids, came at times to be freely given the same as our members kids.
I gave receipts for it
NO LINK can be made between todays AWU or even the one that existed then.
A fraud WAS COMMITTED ON BOTH UNION ITS MEMBERS AND THE DONORS, THE DONORS MUST ONE DAY EXPLAIN WHY THEY REFUSED TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST THE GRUBS.

Lexi,

Welcome back. However, your comment:

"And so it goes on. However, perhaps I am naive, but I didn't realize that the role of governments was to save money. I thought it was to provide services."

Then the Greek government must be your role model. The role of government is to provide the most service that can be provided whilst balancing the budget. A role that Labor has failed spectacularly in time and time again.

David, I respect your view that you do not want The Greens to obtain power. I on the other hand believe we can 'do the job' without the corruption the old parties embrace.
Here is a link to Reuters on the German Greens, what is your opinion?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/07/us-germany-greens-idUSTRE7A61ZM20111107

Dear Paul1405,

According to the item the German Greens get from 15-20% of the vote. That is enough to be sought as a partner in a Coalition. That is not near enough to take power. My guess is that level of support is probably temporary.

I was at a Green Christmas party tonight. Most of the people I talked to were not primarily interested in environmental issues. From that small sample they are not focused on what their name implies, and that was disappointing to me.

Lexi I am not targeting SM.
It however is impossible to skip past that comment.
It clearly denys the GFC ever took place.
In effect, by ignoring just why we are in debt, untruths take place of fair comment.
We MUST confront that type of reporting/avoiding truth.
My whole concept here is to lay open the horrible recent history of MY PARTY.
Any party not concerned about its faults, such as SM,s is doomed.
Much has taken place from the days of the NSW filths ruling.
We now need and will get, an end to the single bed Labor and Unions sleep in.
But never ignore words such as SHADOW MINISTER puts here.
Not lonely, such is said about many subjects by Conservatives, those words are unrelated to TRUTH.
Not no mention of SLIPPER, a crafted handmade lie?
This mornings SMH has yet another story of the filth worth reading 6 million dollars in a bank account and claims account owner did not know it!

"One Nation and Pauline Hanson won rapid support.
From all sides, while some will, and I think you and Poirot fit think this, that she was a bit racist.
She actually spoke for many of this country's voters."
Did she speak for you Belly, I suspect so, many of the conservative labour right find the simplistic views of the Hanson's of this world most appealing. Abbott and co are not philosophically opposed to the views of the extreme right, although they would like more of the moderates to think so. They, like some in the Labor Party think of The Greens, see Hanson as eroding part of their constituency.
(I Belly) challenge non Labor voters to contribute some things that concern them about thier party.
No one ever took up the challenge.
I wonder why Belly? Obeid, Macdonald, Thompson, Tripodi, Williamson the list goes on and on, they are all in YOUR party.

Belly,

As I wrote in my other post:

In the analysis

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/no-one-wins-in-abuse-of-the-law-media-and-politics-20121212-2ba2l.html#ixzz2ErtMbtu6

Justice Rares concedes ''Mr Slipper's conduct in some of those text messages is capable of being characterized as sexual harassment''. The judge described the texts as ''vulgar''

Despite being dropped from Mr Ashby's case, the Cabcharge allegations are still being ''actively considered'' by the commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions.

And Nicola Roxon settled in Ashby's favour, for sexual harassment in the work place. And Notably Nicola Roxon was rapped over the knuckles for abusing commonwealth power to unduly favour Slipper.

Did Ashby's SC unduly use the press (outside the court) to pressure Slipper to concede? Probably. Was material released under court privilege that would not have seen the light of day? Certainly.

Were the texts etc that were published exposing Slipper untrue, and were the basis for his removal as Speaker? Absolutely not.

I see that Labor is considering an inquiry to pursue the Coalition. If I were Abbott, I would welcome it, as Labor's hands are far from clean.

Secondly Labor's claim that the entire debt was due to the GFC is also ludicrous given plentiful examples of wasteful expenditure, and the 6% increase in the public service for no additional services.

Lexi,

Your reference to Abbott's slush fund is irrelevant, as dealt with in another thread. Slush funds in themselves are not illegal and are common place.

What is not legal is creating a legal entity whose purpose is a slush fund and calling it "AWU work place reform association" implying that it was affiliated with the AWU and that its purpose was to reform work places to improve safety.

Especially in the light of its name being fundamental to its being used to rip off companies and the AWU.

Inquiries are only as good as the terms of reference which if coined deceitfully or with mindfulness to a desired outcome or limiting witnesses to a particular list, can be all but useless eg AWB.

I tend to agree with SM that the LNP should push the government for an inquiry into the Slipper/Ashby affair so that all aspects can be revealed including the legal advice (normally kept secret).

It does seem odd the government calling for an inquiry on this when the reason Ashby was paid off was due to risks as obtained in legal advice of a lengthy and possibly costly trial. Future complainants must be looking forward to the governments largesse as set by this precedent. However, it probably is legitimate to ask does the public really want to waste more time and money on this trite. It is a shame the end of the year of parliamentary sittings saw discussions over AWU, Ashby/Slipper and misogyny speeches at the cost of public policy.

In relation to Belly's main point there is clearly a need to clean out the unions via a formal inquiry and bring them back to their core duties of supporting their members. The inquiry would be worth the cost if it instituted some form of oversight and public audit of all union bodies not limited to workers' unions but to the business unions as well eg. BCA etc.

Au contraire, Shadow Minister,

http://www.judgments.fedcourt.gov.au/judgments/Judgments/fca/single/2012/2012fca1411

Above is the full judgment. I'd advise anyone who wishes to argue the point with SM to settle themselves in for an hour or so and read it. It is almost totally damning of Ashby, Doane, Brough and others.

Au contraire, Poirot,

I did read the judgement, and I didn't find anything to contradict what I said above.

Perhaps you could point out where the Judge said that Slipper was entirely innocent, or that the texts were not his / or were not vulgar, or that the cabcharges were not abused?

That the court was used to dig up dirt contrary to its purpose, so what, it is not that Labor has not abused its position to hide its policies from the productivity commission etc.

I'm still encouraging others to read the judgment.

SM,

You are such a spin merchant. That judgment provides a thorough narrative through every step of the collusion between Ashby, Doane and Brough to stitch Slipper up...for their own advancement - political in Brough's case. Ashby seems to think he's taking part in some monumental calling to change the course of Australian politics, and Doane seems to have her own political aspirations for her part in the shenanigans.

It is gob-smackingly damning of those conspirators.

I'm not going to bother trying to knock down your "piddling" points...they are "beside the point".

You're grasping at straws trying to put some of the old SM spin on this. If the others read the judgment, they will see what I see.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for your responses.
They are as always appreciated.
And you've given me much to think about
as well as further research.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link - I can see that this is
quite a complex issue and needs further
investigation.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Thank You for the "welcome back."

I don't always express myself as well as I should.
However, as far as politics is concerned
all political parties
can be criticised for one thing or another - none
of them are without their failings. But wouldn't it
be great if our politicians worked together for the
good of the nation instead of mud slinging at each
other or trying to find "dirt files." Then again
that's probably wishful thinking on my part.

SHADOW MINISTER it may serve to look back, in one of your red hot threads,I said the Slipper issue may well cost Abbott his job, I remain convinced it could.
Tell me folks am I a dill?
Thread after thread post after post I demand the party I LOVE get its act together.
NOT A SINGLE WORD from the LIBS about the very real trouble their party, an in coming government, has.
This is bigger than the children over board.
It out reaches the Wheat board scandal.
Screams for an investigation.
And SM waffles on regardless.
Unions, my linking ALP with them had to be done.
Why.
Unions, [and not all members like it,] fund the ALP
Here we find the very seed that self harms the ALP and union movement.
OWNER SHIP! power brokers are usually ex union heads, Gillards knife men, worked against both the party,s interests and UNION MEMBERS!
Men I IDOLIZED!
About 15 of them, openly claiming ownership!
Bill you will by now have dumped me, but you should have known better.
You would have made a great leader, please forget that, your actions do not deserve reward.
Gillard wrecked us, thanks bloke.
Lexi I will assure you, the groundswell is going to dump the self interested wreckers, it will be a long way back but worth it.
Australian Labor Party is worth it.
Never however take the SM defense wrong is wrong hiding it is unjustified.
IF Abbott puts the same in to investigating this issue as he did trying to get Slipper, he then must leave Parliament!

Belly,

As I pointed out in the other thread:
1 Nothing about Ashby's actions were illegal,
2 The action was assisted by Brough who is not even an MP
3 Nothing uncovered on Slipper is untrue
4 This was started by Juliar buying Slipper's vote
5 Slipper is a weasel that got his just deserts.

Is Labor stupid enough to pursue an enquiry?

I AM honestly reluctant to get involved with SM.
No poster in my view I ever saw here is more reluctant than he to see truth.
However PLEASE LET THE INQUIRY BEGIN.
A conspiracy and that is proved by Pyne meeting this bloke, Abbott,s known involvement.
Hockey too.
Mal Boughs appointment, DESPITE VERY DIRTY HANDS TO SLIPPERS SEAT.
No doubt exists for me, seekers of truth too should, just as I demand Labor and union heads here.
Demand a Royal commission in to a CONSTRUCTED DIRTY TACTICS SHAM.
A search for better politicians union heads and the heads, [WILLING TO HELP power brokers] is called for.
With just as much certainty Labor can not win this elect by burying its mud and displaying Liberals.
The same applys to Liberals, grubby people serve only them selves.

Another grubby bunch, the Liberal Party, thought they had hooked a live one with Slippery Pete, but no, looks a stinker to me. Ashby with the connivance of members of the Liberal Party starting with toad number one Brough, plus a few others. the Mad Monk and his band of armadillos looking on from the peanut gallery. Ho, ho, ho who's running the story, none other than some hack,Steve Lewis from the Murdick gutter press and fish rapper, The Daily Telecrap! Its a stinker alright! Brough has to be hung out to dry, and who else?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/lnp-brough-and-tumble/story-e6frg6z6-1226535675296
This link is from the Australian.
Gutter press at the top end.
Unlikely to ever take sides other than with Conservatives.
Yet, even with the soft hand it shows a perfect rebuttal of SM s every word.
My campaign to bring Labor/union rats to justice, is no less strong in seeking to get an investigation in to the constructed campaign of hate.
Slippers sexuality,his foul mouth, are things he has been known for for everyone of his 9 terms in office as country party or Liberal.

Belly,

You say:"Slippers sexuality,his foul mouth, are things he has been known for for everyone of his 9 terms in office as country party or Liberal."

Then why on earth did Juliar sack Jenkins and appoint Slipper. Was she so stupid as to not see this coming?

If this judgement is appealed, then this is also not the end of the story.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/ashby-case-a-shocking-spectacle-20121213-2bcgg.html
Yes another link, an unwelcome one fore SOME.
See it bis balanced, it is the truth.
Such links can kill threads.
And are for the most part an unwelcome intrusion on the rights of SOME.
Without links to truth SOME are free to craft words that are not true.
A truth than can not be hidden,must not be hidden is both sides of Parliament lie.
Both sides play school yard bully games.
But much more importantly, both sides have/had men best described as? grubs.
Australia deserves far better than past NSW Labor maggots, union maggots such as those in the miss named AWU scandal near 20 years ago, it use of AWU is as wrong as blameing other than Gillard if true, for those long ago acts.
Are we, as a nation best served by hiding the crimes of any side.
I think not.

Come on SM your Born To Rule Party has been caught out on this one. I have no sympathy for Slippery Pete, look at his track record, or the Labor Party,look at their track record, but your mobs grubby attempt to bring down the government with the connivance of Murdicks fish wrappers has failed. Gillard should hold an inquiry, dig into the manure heap, and see who pops out. With a bit of luck, who knows, the Mad Monk himself might be sitting on top of the pile! A good Senate Committee is what's needed, 2 Labor, 2 Liberal, 1 Greens, we'll get a majority verdict from that one, Windsor and Oakeshott can supply the rope.

Paul,

You are laughable. Firstly the rank hypocrisy in not wanting an inquiry into the AWU fraud, and then wanting an inquiry into the Ashby case where there was no crime, or legal wrong doing, only perhaps an unethical use of the legal system.

The case is on the court records, and the news articles are open to the public, so what would an inquiry try and find? The last time I checked no inquiry, judicial, senatorial, or even royal has the ability to compel Ashby to reveal any aspects of his legal advice or who even who was paying for it. Neither can they compel any members of the coalition to testify on what they knew or when. It would be the shortest inquiry in history.

Then if Ashby appeals, then any inquiry cannot begin until the case is complete.

"Firstly the rank hypocrisy in not wanting an inquiry into the AWU fraud,"
SM fine an AWU inquiry, should catch Gillard with her pants down, good one, bring it on, all for it.How's that!
The only party you can't have a muck rake is those wonderful, wonderful Greens, Lee Rhiannon terrific person, great senator, DON'T YOU AGREE!

Paul,

I assume your lack of answer in to the pointlessness of an inquiry into the Ashby case is a realization of the stupidity of the comment.

The greens are so busy stabbing each other in the back, and LR was caught red handed. LR is a hard left radical that only just acknowledged that communism was a bad idea, whose connection to reality is tenuous at best, and is not considered a threat by anyone in either Labor or Liberal parties.

SM,

You really are something else : )

You're the reason the word "partisan" was coined.

Here's part of the summing up in the judgment:

"...Mr Ashby acted in combination with Ms Doane and Mr Brough when commencing the proceedings in order to advance the interests of the LNP and Mr Brough..."

Mr Brough is being supported and backed by the opposition in the wake of the findings. This is extraordinary in light of his role in the revealed "collusion"....and you're rambling on about Gillard and citing technicalities such as "no crime here, folks".

Let me get this straight - are you really expecting us to take you seriously?

That you dismiss the whole putrid undertaking so easily as "....only perhaps an unethical use of the legal system." speaks volumes.

SM, this was all about "Get Slipper' the use of the court system for political advantage. Heads must roll, let Abbott start with Brough and work his way up. I'm cynical enough to say politics is a dirty game. Some dirty tricks come off, some don't, this is a don't, and mistakes have to be paid for. Abbott's got to get the axe and call Broughy to the block, End of story.

An excellent summary by Richard Ackland:

http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/ashby-case-a-shocking-spectacle-20121213-2bcgg.html

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link.

It's obviously quite clear that this entire case against
the former speaker, Peter Slipper, was cooked up for political
gain.

I can't help wondering though whether Mal Brough,
who's still the LNP candidate for Fisher, whether he's
going to step down, or whether he's in with a chance of
taking the former speaker's seat, in the next election?

Poirot,

Pot calling Kettle black. You are as partisan as anyone else here!

Compared to the unethical and corrupt action by Juliar in abusing the parliamentary process in buying Slipper's vote, this court case is mild in comparison. Slipper in selling his mates down the river should expect no less. This court case simply showed what sleaze balls he and Juliar are.

As for the legality of the action taken, I am open to anyone showing where there was anything illegal done. In other words put your money where your mouth is. Any inquiry where there is no illegality is a non starter, and I am sure that the coalition would love to use parliamentary privilege to keep bringing up Slipper's crookery.

You're a hoot, SM.

You spend a great deal of time on this forum in near hysterics over "allegations" and "innuendo", pronouncing people guilty of this and that in the absence of court judgments.

Here we have a court judgment that finds one of your side to be a conspirator in a case that is thrown out as an abuse of the court...and what do you do.....?

Since you're such a full bottle on the subject of political ethics and corruption, tell me more about the ethics of Mr Brough?

Keep it up, - your contortions are fascinating.

Poirot what you said.
Exactly what you said.
For all the times I left briefly over SM, and MANY OTHERS TOO we ignored a simple truth.
SM has no intention of ever even considering a fault in his side.
Be grateful, not all in his party are like that, some very honest very brave individuals can be found there, about ten klms, to the left of SM but still Liberal.
This CONSPIRACY will not go away.
It will black this dysfunctional tribe within a team, Abbott,s lost tribe currently in control of LIBERALISM.
This I know, even if it hurts, true Liberalism, will return, it will for a while make Labors task hard.
But with its return will force reform for Labor.
Again I a criminal SM once said here in print!will be told of his superior intellect.
It may well be so, as it must be new and unused, I have not seen it in use ever.
No person who so willingly stabs his opponent but refuses to see wrong in his camp is in truly of use to those he supports.
*UNLESS HE/SHE IS UNCONCERNED ABOUT HONESTY.
PS
when will others start new threads?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/peter-slipper-plot-linked-to-top-of-liberal-national-party/story-e6frgczx-1226409627174
A telling link.
It questions SM and his teams front bench.
It brings the pursuit of Gillard, for things not yet proved,17 years ago under the spotlight.
How can it be.
SM his team, telling of how shocked they are, at the muck raking in this case!
You just MUST laugh
Never in my life have so many dirty hands tried to hide than this.
2 full years that has seen every day bring new charges against the government.
Now a COURT RULING is being ignored?

Poirot, Belly,

Wind your necks in. This was a dirty trick. It used the court process to release documents that would normally be protected by privacy, exposing Slipper to all and making his position as speaker untenable.

However, bribing Slipper with the speaker's chair was also a far dirtier trick. Slipper changing his allegiance for money was vile, and I think after this he would be lucky to get a position as local dog catcher.

Don't forget the fiasco where Labor notified the tent embassy of where Abbott was etc

SM I am proud off you!~
Until you got to the bit about LABOUR informing those fools at the shanty town you name,as they do embassy!
ROTFL!
Yes Australia needs, and should demand, a full investigation in to the union movement.
It should be openly supported by the beneficiary UNIONS.
Yes Labors past filth, some surviving very well thank you.
Are under investigation, and hopefully will spend time in prison.
Only from within, the ALP, can honest open reform come.
NEEDED REFORMS ARE
Power brokers, get rid of them, from the party if that is what it takes
Solidarity
see that word propped up the Sussex Street mafia, got a trouble maker key to Rudd,s knifing a job with Kerry Packer!
My twin movements must reform,lock in safeguards to see we never swim in this sulege pit again.
AND those who plotted to GET SLIPPER, who ignored his long time poor behavior and time after time put him back on their team.
Time to front up,Australia will benefit the Liberals too for every one of these constrictors who is forced out of politics.
No issue Labor is facing is other than the same as the
*Slipper Gate Conspiracy*

Actually there's an interesting bit in the judgment about a series of text messages between Ashby and Slipper:

"On 10 October 2011, Mr Slipper and Mr Ashby exchange text messages in which each referred to Brough in terms of vulgar and sexualised abuse. The exchange related to a YouTube video concerning Mr Brough that Mr Ashby had just launched on Mr Slipper's behalf. At one point Mr Ashby introduces the suggestion that Mr Slipper could become speaker."

It goes on to provide the text messages where Slipper at one point asks Ashby: "Where did you get the idea that I could become speaker?"

Sm - you are still spinning.

Are you trying to tell us that, oh yes it was very naughty of Ashby to let out all that private banter - but that's where it ends?

The fact that Ashby and Doane colluded with Brough to bring down the speaker on behalf of Brough and the LNP means nothing to you. If Labor had pulled this stunt, you would be having apoplexy in your denunciation of such a scheme (although doing stupidy stupidy things like this appears to be purely the province of the LNP.....and they continue it with their backing of Brough!)

This is not a Warner Bros cartoon - and it was not a "dirty trick" - it was a scandalous abuse of the process of court for personal and political gain by all involved

Just gotta ask - why are these nongs backing Brough?!

I mean with such a damning finding, how do they think they can carry the baggage to the election. I've always considered the opposition front bench to be a rag-tag bunch...but now they're resembling the cast of third-rate circus.

Come on, SM, you must realise that backing Brough is untenable under the circumstances.

I wonder how things will play out between now and the election?

Poirot you may not get an answer from SM.
But his last post is telling.
Yours about the future? we live in interesting times.
Here are the reasons heads must roll,in my view
Fact, Slipper served in both conservative teams and was admired by many, Abbott went as a mate to his wedding.
Your post, and the judgment, points to long term links with his accuser.
Libs, fact, had targeted Slipper on behalf of Bough, to take his seat.
Slipper played his cards, took the speakers job, not the first or last from every side to do some thing like that.
We KNOW via media and this judgment, a CONSPIRACY took place.
This is SLIPPER GATE.
Abbott,s pursuit of so many while defending this reminds us, he is unfit to lead.

Following on the same train of thought as to "..Why are these nongs backing Brough?"

One can only surmise that they owe him something - or that he was only another player amidst a much grander cast of players.

So what was Pyne doing asking for Ashby's email?

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/pyne-email-surfaces-as-coverup-claims-persist-20120503-1y1df.html

Poirot, Belly et al,

I hear all this faux outrage, and detailed analysis, but not one tiny trace of anything even vaguely illegal from the coalition. Yet huge hypocrisy when not one of you lot muttered a word when Juliar bought Slipper's allegiance.

Belly,

You make assertions that I am dishonest, however, you are yet to show where anything I have posted is false. Put your money where your mouth is.

Lenore Taylor, Political Correspondent for The Sydney
Morning Herald points out that "Most of all this case
raises questions about the vicious political climate of
2012, about rushing to judgement for political gain, about
the personal consequences that can have, and about all the
other things we could have been talking about..."

Surely it is now time to take stock of how politics is
being conducted?

SM,

You keep harping on about a lack of illegality.

There was nothing illegal about Gillard appointing Slipper...why are you making such a fuss, in that case?

The reason you are making such a fuss is that you perceive Gillard's actions as "unethical".

Yet!!...you cannot bring yourself to condemn the Ashby/Brough shenanigans in a political sense, even though they stink to high heaven and were eminently unethical - your reason?... they weren't illegal.

If it's okay to excuse the actions of Brough and Ashby because they weren't illegal, then you should extend the same judgment to Gillard in her appointment of Slipper.

Much could be said about SM,many questions will never receive answers, but must be asked.
Who is the bloke?
No I no longer think he is a politician, he lacks the ability needed.
Many have left over him, some too over me.
IF I resemble the person SM says, how come this thread is about the faults in my party?
He insults with the sharpest of words, but cringes if we take him on.
No value in concerning our selves about him.
While ever OLO has room for truth, ALP voters, and open right to differ with increasing numbers of red necked conservatives I will stay.
Swimming in an ALP only pool would be unfortunately of late swimming in others by products.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/costa-obeid-and-the-water-firm-20121214-2bf8e.html
IF YOU CARE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY READ THIS LINK.
COSTA a new filthy word,once head of? UNIONS NSW!
He rode union members to death.
I walked away , not ready, but determined to stand up for them!

$27.000 in the red.costs of running and repairing my car for three years use on job
But they are worth every cent!
Tell me SM would say that about his team, he will twist it by telling us his team have no grubs.
They do too, and like Labor grubs may they never turn in to butter flys
SIPPER GATE WILL CONTINUE UNTIL HEADS ROLL.

Poirot,

Is it finally beginning to sink in? Have you finally realized what I was saying.

Neither the appointment of Slipper as Speaker, nor the court case were illegal or ethical. So what is all the fuss you are making?

SM,

Are you suggesting that the sham constructed by Ashby, Doane, Brough and others is in some way comparable to the appointment of Slipper as Speaker.

I submit there are degrees of unethical behaviour - and cooking up a case and launching proceedings in the Federal Court for personal and political gain would seem to register about eight on the shambling Richter Scale.

The other point is that you appear to wave away the collusion as if it were barely worth mentioning - you're almost runneresque in your ability to deny the gravity of the conspirators' actions.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/it-may-not-be-watergate-but-more-explanation-is-needed-20121214-2beuv.html
This link brings back to life the weasel words of our most famous weasel Tony Abbott.
And asks questions I would too, IF I was a Liberal supporter.
My quest for clean hands in the ALP are claims good followers of any party should mirror.

Poirot,

Actually, the buying and selling of a parliamentary vote is ethically about as low as you can go, and on your scale would be well above 8. Crossing the floor on for principles is understandable, for money really stinks. It is notable that Roxon tried to have the case shut down at the start, however, there was sufficient evidence of harassment for the judge to let it continue.

As for the Slipper case nothing was uncovered that was not perfectly true. I see a poll in his constituency shows that only 2.5% of voters are inclined to support him.

As for our red haired weasel (she even looks like one) she is now displaying faux concern over Slipper's feelings like all the crooks in Labor's fold.

SM,

It must get fair up your nose, that in light of all the people you've found guilty who haven't even been charged, let alone tried...that this dinky case get's tossed out of court on its ear....but not before the conspirators have been exposed.

Just to remind you what a murky game is politics, your hero, Mr Abbott, according to Tony Windsor wasn't above a little begging during "negotiations".

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/tony-abbott-would-have-taxed-carbon-tony-windsor/story-fnniix-1226452131810

""The leader of the Opposition knows very well, because on a number of occasions he actually begged for the job," Mr Windsor said. "And he made the point, not only to me but to others in that negotiating period, that he would do anything to get that job."
"You would well remember - and your colleagues should be aware - that the only codicil that you put on was 'I will do anything, Tony, to get this job: the only thing I wouldn't do is sell my arse.'"

It's fascinating that in light of the exposure of these latest shenanigans, that you still manage to maintain the holier-than-thou facade.

Poirot you are winning!
The more strident SM becomes the more you win.
I am shifting, from center right to left.
I am up to my chin in this filth, uninterested in chaceing SM from rock to rock.
After a morning with the bitter taste of my last posted link, I am forced to think the center unity right of Labor is rotten to the core!
A filthy money making, leader stabbing self interested MAFIA,
Find me a rich left wing Labor man.
Find me a criminal thief such as those in my links from the left.
Faulkner, Albanese names of TRUE Labor Heros.
Ever ALP voter/member should write a letter of complaint, about Sussex Street filth.
About Union control of the party.
Who would you post it to?
Seal it and throw it over your left shoulder!
If you intend sending it to other than those two I mention above.
Lurking like the Black death in more hearts than most believe are truths about next election day.
I fear most Liberals, in growing numbers, are saying PLEASE NOT ABBOTT.
I unlike SM want my party to do better, feeding Abbot,s two year histieria is unproductive.
SLIPPER GATE, BE WARNED, IS STANDARD ISSUE for RABBOTT!

Dear Poirot,

There's an interesting article in The Saturday Age,
December 15, 2012 by Michael Gordon, editor of The
Age. Gordon sums up that:

"The Liberal leader's problem is that he is as subtle
as a sledge-hammer, and his capacity for over-reach has
become a massive turn-off for voters - whether it be in
predicting dire consequences as a result of the carbon
tax, or accusing Gillard of criminality as a young lawyer
(before retreating when the heat comes on in Parliament).

Herein lies the rub for both leaders. It's time for their
focus to turn away from their opponents and on to policies
they plan to pursue. I think they call it vision. That is
the message from the polls and it was certainly the
message from the Slipper judgement this week.

Australian politics is a play in need of a new script.
She, or he, who grasps this message should reap a political
reward."

And many voters seem to agree as the following comments in
The Age show:

1) "Abbott probably feels safer in Afghanistan at the moment."
2) "RUN, Abbott, run."
3) "When will the Coalition learn not to throw mud when its own
history is not clean?"
4)"To paraphrase the Good Book: 'As ye sue, so shall ye reap.'
5) Did anyone believe the fiasco was anything but a conspiracy?"
6) Tony and Joe, at least one person believes you. I also
believe in fairies at the bottom of your gardens."

In every word describing my disgust with actions of SOME in my party and the union movement.
I hold my self accountable for every one.
Yet Labor seems intent on running with the surely not Abbott slogan.
Best surrender first.
Abbott not just by his Hysteria in the past two years.
But by his whole political life, even university, is unfit to wash the cars of the cleaners of the house.
Yet Gillard has a fan club much like his.
Given a third choice, say Kermit the frog both leaders would be gone.

Kermit the frog is a greenie!

It's not easy being green :(

Poirot,

The only person that I have declared guilty of crime is Craig Thomson. And yes it does bug me that Labor and FWA shielded him for more than 3 years.

It must bug you that after all the rolling in filth and smearing done by the labor party, that Labor is still in a losing position.

SM,

"The only person that I have declared guilty of crime is Craig Thomson..."

Well, then - it's obvious that you've given yourself the wrong title...surely it should be Shadow Emperor.

Your Royal Partisaness...I'm not particularly fussed over who is or is not losing/winning. I'm of the opinion that both sides in Aus politics are woeful at present. But watching you disparage one side and excuse the other is truly entertaining.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/abbotts-handling-of-awu-backfires-20121216-2bhmh.html
Having posted the link I will step back in to my theme.
While remain interested in how SM will turn this in to a positive.
Not in the class of grubs I target but Swan appears to be getting old, and seems to have a crush on Gillard.
It may just be the part he played in getting Rudd.
How many of us know the COORDINATOR of the right, the senator who left,to take up a high wages job with James Packer?!
Leaving a spot for Carr, along with center unity, Labors right
Got rid of a reformist Kevin Rudd, not because of polls, they are CONSISTENTLY WORSE WITH GILLARD.
But as hand servants of the mining industry!
Ah who is involved in the Sussex Street Mafia?
ah gee! Fraud and filth involving? MINING!
May I to the power brokers in three states, who using the power membership owned, gave us total defeat in 2013.
No more than 20 maybe less than ten.
Wish you a Christmas gift from me.
May you never again sleep without having a nightmare wake you, re living the week you put self before party.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/icac-seizes-on-australian-waters-link-to-obeid-family-20121216-2bhj2.html
Yes another link.
On the face of it one that best serves the nonLabor party,s.
But it must be seen.
This Christmas, like every one that ever has been some will go without.
Some, whole family, will not even have a roof over their heads.
I was a child from that back ground.
My parents went without,for three days to see me eat.
Army second hand trousers tied with string.
I had my dream, yes often food.
But as I grew it became that dream, the ALP.
It lives still, but is unaware of the down trodden.
In the case of NSW is was these fleas that did the treading on.
IF MY PARTY IS NOT READY FOR REFORM?
Read the link, no hunger in those houses this year

Poirot,

"But watching you disparage one side and excuse the other is truly entertaining."

You absolutely do the same thing. Declaring Thomson "innocent" must require lobotomization of the logical components of your brain.

SE,

It's a quaint habit I picked up...you know the one about people having their day in court....

This guy hasn't even been charged.

Then again, when you're Emperor, trifles like that are hardly worth mentioning.

There is a quaint habit I learnt at school, and that was to use my brain. I learnt the difference between giving someone the benefit of the doubt and deliberately choosing to be ignorant. There has been a 3 1/2 year detailed inquiry into the corruption at HSU, and the report while not 100% complete leaves no room for doubt.

I note your hypocrisy in that you don't apply the same standards in making judgements with regards the actions of the coalition.

"...while not 100% complete leaves no room for doubt."

It leaves every room for doubt, for incompetence - and in light of the connection between Jackson and Lawler.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-21.thomson-claims-vindication-after-report-savages-fair-work/4213408

The "standards" I'm applying are the judgment of the Federal Court.

Poirot! the Emperor has no cloths.
And judging by those rants other bits are missing.
I am unsure if Thomson will ever face court.
Certain if guilty he should go to prison.
However this much I can assure you , much of the charges said to be laid against him ARE FALSE.
SM can not know just how little he knows, he approaches the subject using verbal inexactitudes.
In the end SM has never found fault with any one on his side , but grabs with both LIPS any chance to verbal a Labor person.
Poirot you have an IQ that will understand, IF I thought him guilty he would be a target just as much as the maggots I target here in this thread.
UNIONS FUND ALP at election time.
They fund their own looking for a seat, no crime there.
I as union official! have rang in and used the UNION/BRANCH SECRETARY'S GOLD CREDIT CARD.
It is not uncommon, Not every official has a card one per branch is the norm.
Note SM, INSULTS YOU, HE IS HURTING! and wrong.

"Note SM,INSULTS YOU..."

Water off a duck's back, Belly

(Quack!)

Belly,

You might be interested in this tale of a bad loser.

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/mal-brough-and-the-art-of-losing-gracefully/

Poirot,

You are not using the standards of the federal court, you are abdicating your decision making to the court.

On your basis, you freely admit that only the three people named in the judgement had anything to do with the case? The rest including Pyne etc are completely innocent.

Thanks poirot the link was good.
Pyne? he is extremely lucky being a bad mouthed big spiteful kid is not a crime.
His behind the scenes meetings with the story's constructor is clear, grubby bloke.
We see contributors and the general public say they are WEARY of politics.
A dangerous word, and a dangerous thought.
So many of us, ever willing to wade in to the waters, give our opinions, are unwilling to follow the events in detail.
To turn away from daily reports of filth is to say it really does no matter.
Not specifically referring to your problem SM, seeing only evil on my side.
But am bound to chuckle most of this day as your spidders web of spin try,s to hide Pyne.

SM,

Excuse me for imagining that courts are our "decision makers" - they are the mechanism we employ in reaching conclusions.

Besides, I have carefully read and reread the judgement which forensically pieced together the machinations and sequence of events as they unfolded in this case.

So I'm not abdicating my decision making at all - unless you're suggesting that I disbelieve the information contained in the judgment.

I'm only surmising as far as Pyne is concerned....unlike you who declares either guilt or innocence, without charge or a finding of guilt in a court - in an extremely partisan manner.

Unsure, in a thread I started to let the pain out.
The pain of loving the ALP.
Loving my union.
Knowing both are to suffer because of filth in both movements.
Shadow Minister appears.
To rebut reported truths, about his team.
To PRETEND THE JUDGMENT handed down in the Slipper Gate case never happened.
Surely I can be forgiven for laughing?
For being stunned?
In one thing, believe me, Liberals are better than Labor.
They have as much filth.
But hide them better.
Must surely be an embarrassment, for SM to post the party line and nothing else.
AF, after Abbott, he will be dumped, our SM . will pretend he always knew he was no good.
Loven it!

Poirot,

The vast majority of our decisions are resolved without requiring access to the courts or the high courts etc. The courts are one of a myriad of our decision makers and typically the arbiters of last resource. They are not always right either, as they have to follow a set standard of rules, which often acquits people on technicalities, and whose judgement are often criticised. Other decision makers include coroners, judicial and other inquiries, Parliamentary appointed bodies such as FWA etc, even down to disciplinary committees etc.

Craig Thomson has essentially been found guilty of a multitude of corrupt activities by a judicially headed, independent body, appointed by parliament precisely for that purpose. Was the report criticised, yes, was the conclusion criticised, No.

Am I entitled to declare his guilt, absolutely.

SM,

Here's a run down of your "...judicially headed, independent body....".

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5416&page=0#148236

The Vice President is the partner of Thomson's chief accuser. The Vice President's computers, hand held devices and smart phone records were "not" provided to KPMG.

Great standards demonstrated in the FWA investigation(insert Sarmark)

(Sarcmark)

Belly,

From a personal standpoint, I offer you this true story.

My company operated in a state where it was not compulsory to join any union. This was in the building sector. The company employed both union and non union members within separate divisions, and workers were given the choice of division to work in. The employer offered higher rates of pay to non union members, together with performance bonuses, and offered union members the rate which their union demanded they be paid, but only that.

The company workers decided for themselves which was the better offer, and obviously chose the path which paid more. The union member division lost it's workers and closed down. The now non union division members were happy enough to turn down all union arguments that they should rejoin the union. Both sides of this company reaped the benefit.

For the employer a boom in business, and the wholehearted support of well paid employees with pride in their work, and the company the worked for.

For the employees - more money, a happy working environment, and access direct to their employer to resolve any problems without an intermediary, or to discuss their ideas for improvement.

Word got out in the industry, and the company had no shortage of people asking for jobs.

Downside to ths story is that the company had a rash of houses mysteriously burned to the ground - proven to be arson, after it became completely non union.

Poirot,

Once again you prefer to cherry pick from the KPMG report (with a sprinkling of conspiracy theory), quite happy to ignore that irrespective of the deficiencies in the investigation, KPMG determined that there was sufficient evidence to substantially support the conclusions that were reached in the report.

Thomson has been investigated by the appropriate judicial body and found guilty of corruption. I believe them and KPMG. You choose to be ignorant because it supports your partisan stand.

Belly,

You seem to want to push insulting me further and further, But now you are simply lying again.

SM said:

"...KPMG determined there was sufficient evidence to substantially support the conclusions reached in the report."

Oh really?

May I direct you to the official KPMG review of FWA's HSU investigation - to the paragraph at the conclusion of the section titled: "Objectives and scope of this review".

"The scope of work for Phase 1 and Phase 2 was restricted to a review of the process followed by FWA in undertaking their investigation of the matters and specifically did not include the re-performance of any part of the investigations or the evaluation of evidence presented in support of the findings made in the HSU investigation reports."

You make it up as you go along, SM

I have re read the thread.
Doing so asks me more questions than it gives answers.
The filth, mixed with the just wrong.
As I person who has a vital interest in this uncovering of crime and corruption in the NSW ALP, off just years ago.
I just can not avoid a truth.
My ALP my lifes love the Trade Union movement, *have not yet* addressed the issue.
A seeming determination exists to say not me mate.
But *NO ONE, IN BOTH MOVEMENTS* can say they did not know.
IF as I expect, Abbott goes pre election, and IF Liberals pick a winner, not second best, Turnbull, Labors whole future will be a very long very tough enforced reform.
I think this country, is suffering from far more than a hung Parliament.
Labor is intent on saving its legislation.
Liberals and their dog Nats?
On seeing how bad an opposition can get.
I hope to be here this time next year.
And to be helping rebuild the wreckage of Gillards folly.
To hope NSW filth are broke and in prison,[that never happens power wins not justice.
I hope, gee beg, those in the house/power brokers who dumped Rudd are not leading the rebuilding.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2012/12/19/09/00/abbott-too-busy-to-read-slipper-ruling
This *Abbott Defense*
May suit another known around here.
But in my view it confirms my last post here.
We either want honerty from both sides or we deserve nothing.

Good one, Belly.

Here we go again. Mr Abbott doesn't read the judgment, yet makes a comment on Brough's behaviour. (reminds one of the Leigh Sales interview over the carbon tax)

"Mal's a friend of mine"...

He's confident that he "acted rightly at all times"

According to the judgment, Brough didn't act rightly at all.

Notwithstanding Mr Abbott is overseas, if he's going to comment on the subject, it is incumbent upon him to make himself aware of the judgment.

Incompetence once more.

Poirot,

I was forced to go back and review my quote, and I apologise and eat crow, being short of time and skimming a commentary, I remarked on what I thought was except from the report, but was actually from the commentary.

However, It is also true that while the report criticised the methodology of the investigation it did not criticise any of the evidence collected, or the conclusions. In short, there was nothing in the KPMG review to conclude that there was not sufficient evidence to prosecute Thomson.

Thanks SM at last!
We find the whole mess is no problem.
Way to go.
Judges verdicts are no trouble.
Just pretend it never happened.
Here is my chance.
I can dash around claiming the NSW trash are my mates, so ok.
Weird me, open door, to copy your defense.
But bit old fashioned me.
Like to my sides filth in prison and bankrupt.
Not bona pedestal.

Fair enough, Shadow Minister - thanks for that.

I'll add though that if KPMG's scope didn't include evaluation of evidence (which it didn't), then the point it is moot. The KPMG review critcised FWA's investigation process. My point was if the process was flawed, then the investigation and its conclusion may well be flawed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-19/thomson-lawyer-claims-vindication-after-subpoenas-returned/4436718

Nothing!

Belly

Juliar Gillard was instrumental in setting up the Workplace reform association that defrauded companies and unions of $hundreds of thousands, yet wants us all to look away.

Brough did nothing illegal, and yet Labor are looking for ways to establish an inquiry.

Poirot,

The evidence in the FWA investigation has not been refuted by anyone (other than Thomson) and the sheer volume of hard evidence makes a mockery of anyone trying to pretend that Thomson is innocent.

SM

You mean like the "hard evidence" of Thomson's brothel escapades...which for some unexplained reason failed to materialise when subpoenaed?

"Brough did nothing illegal..."

Are you saying (with a straight face) that Brough's participation in the grubby collusion should be overlooked?

The thing I find difficult to fathom, SM, is your willingness to find people guilty without a court ruling (or even a charge), while at the same time excusing outrageous conduct outlined in a court ruling.

SM,
Australia's political landscape is littered with notables who have done nothing illegal but for one reason or another have fallen on, or been put too, the sword. The sacking of Gough Whitlam as PM is a prime example, Whitlam had done nothing illegal to warrant dismissal, but Kerr felt he had to show leadership and acting in the nations best interest Whitlam had to go. Our society expects a certain standard of behavior from our elected officials and if they fail to meet that standard they have to be held accountable. Brough falls into that category. No politician or aspiring politician can hope to hide behind the mask of legality and hope to get away with it. Society expects our political leaders to show leadership when it comes to such behavior, Abbott is just not showing leadership at the moment and that, politically reflects badly on him.
Thomson is Gillard's failure on the same score. Slippers appointment as speaker, although may have seemed a good idea at the time, has proved to be a bad political decision by Labor and on both counts they will pay at the ballot box, as will the Liberals when it comes to Brough.

Brough and Juliar are in the same basket.

Most of what Juliar did 17 years ago was not illegal, but very unethical. For Juliar to ask for Brough to be de selected while staying as PM is rank hypocrisy.

P,

Like the hard evidence of Thomson'c credit card, his signature, his driver's license, the phone calls from his mobile and hotel room linking him to the brothel.

I hear from you

"Gillard did nothing illegal..."

Are you saying (with a straight face) that Juliar's participation in the grubby theft and fraud should be overlooked?

SM it is imposable to work you out.
I could get rude, tell you what I truly think.
But have no need to hurt your feelings.
Bloke you will or should know I DISRUST/DISLIKE, GILLARD.
Honestly, I see every chance she knew nothing about the fraud.
I had walk in relationship with my branches lawyers, things like this did not get formal.
YOU CLUTCH AT STRAWS.
Thomson, you gleefully get right in to him, but he has been charged with NOTHING YET.
Skipping past the ex SA womans faults current dirt in QLD and Vic you invent crimes on my side.
I would sell Gillard and three front benchers for Tuppence.
If Thomson is guilty HE THEN FALLS IN TO THE MAGGOT SECTION.
My crime? I want conviction before execution.
Not a day not an hour gos, by I do not shudder at the actionsof NSW filth, those under investigation and those who helped them near kill my6 party.
IF my wish is granted my post Gillard party post slugs and maggots who once betrayed me and NSW we will be trusted BECAUSE WE REFORMED.
You?
In my view want only victory, free of accountability.

SM,

If the "evidence" against Thomson is so obvious and overwhelming - why hasn't he been charged?

Why was there no evidence forthcoming from the brothels after the subpoenas?

Poirot,

Civil proceedings against Thomson have already started, to recover the monies, the sheer volume of criminal charges, their complexity, and that the police have only recently been given a reworked FWA report have probably something to do with it.

What does a "reworked" FWA report consist of?

And those "civil charges" I presume emanate from the flawed investigation.

As for criminal charges and their complexity...you seem to regard all the "evidence" as obvious. Perhaps the police are a little more circumspect and not quite so partisan - you reckon?

Poirot,

You are getting desperate.

The FWA report was not in a format that could be used by the police. This was reworked to provide a body of evidence.

Juliar's FWA stacked with ex union officials made sure that it was a very low priority to protect one of their own.

I now get the reworked report.

Make up your mind. If FWA was stacked in favour of protecting Thomson - then it wasn't stacked very well.

I am constantly amused by my combative opponent SM.
Never short of a few nasty words about my side of politics.
I too proudly have that ability, but differ with SM.
See I need not make it up.
NSW lives like a burning I can not forget, filth is too mild a description.
SM had he wished, could have found much to be unhappy with in my party.
He unlikely as it is, could have shown his pain, at the 3 mentioned wrongs known,in his party.
But FONZ can never say sorry.
I look at 2013 knowing, my party is gone.
Thinking firmly Abbott is too.
I KNOW my party and the Union movement, even if it is by the inflexible SM,s and there are half a million of them.
Yet, with help from true lovers of LABOR, reform will come, reform of a skeleton , needlessly made so by Gillard, most offensive of all POWER BROKERS, planning to rule that skeleton!
And by aware, th4ese fleas, filth and fleas,are certain that Abbott will be so bad , LABOR WILL BE RETURNED BY DEFAULT.
Conservatives have our measure, Turnbull will face Gillard.
And a shattered Labor, killed by its own wood WORMS will struggle to be competitive
This I know, better Labor reform now than smash on the rocks of thieves and power brokers.
SM look in your own back yard or confront the pain I do today.
An ALP STRUGGLING TO FIND REASON FOR ITS EXISTANCE so badly has it treated its own.

Belly makes me Laugh,

While trying to pretend to be unbiased by expressing shame at his parties blatant and rampant corruption, he fails miserably by trying to claim that the Libs are as bad as labor, just not yet caught.

Sorry Belly, just because your side is so corrupt and incompetent, does not mean that the other side can be painted by the same brush. In this area the Labor/union alliance is in a field of its own.

I have never claimed that the Liberal party is without fault, but trying to compare unethical conduct by a potential future MP with the unethical and illegal conduct of a sitting PM is pathetic, but the only weapon labor has.

Have to agree with you there, SM...I mean that "potential future" MP is a "friend" of Abbott's - and apparently that particular nuance makes all the difference - as in: [Brough] must have acted rightly at all times."

The other thing is, the towering level of talent on show in the shadow front bench...."Pyne" Wow!, Bishop "Wow!", Abbott "Wow!" Hockey "Wow!"

It fair blows yer mind!

Ashby is taking his case to FWA.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-21/ashby-to-take-case-to-fair-work-australia/4439832

This better than Days of Our Lives!

Poirot,

It appears that your mind is very easily blown.

Look at Labor's front bench, Swan, Juliar, Plibersek, Roxon, Garret, Conroy, etc What a bunch of incompetent losers.

Question for SM
Do you think your party or its supporters are funding Ashby's court appearances?
Answer, in my view yes without doubt.
WE differ you and I .
if Slipper was an ALP person, if Labor used Ashby as it appears your team did.
Trust me,this thread would see more filth named by me.
Criticism of my stand here is still being heaped on me.
I stand firm.
My party my union movement, must reform.
OUR FOUNDATION WAS AND IS TO SERVE NOT TOBE SERVED,BY THOSE THAT MAKE UP THE POWER WE ARE SEEING MISS USED.

Belly,

You say in your view that the case is paid for by coalition supporters, and then go on and include "without doubt". While I don't doubt your sincerity, the term "coalition supporter" includes half the country. It also excludes the possibility that the pro bono work the lawyer was doing, was to get his name on the most public case in the country, and get a huge amount of free advertising.

You continually confuse your opinion with facts and "the truth".

This is a major difference between me and you.

SM I promise
To leave the sarcasm I often feel towards you, any bias,and any Other thing I hold against you in this post, at the door.
Remember why I started this thread.
Understand I hold this thread as a needed one NEEDED!
having to remind my movment,s, they have let my country, the members down.
Under such a pain,some very much * why would I defend those you target*
Even now *Rather than debate you,I want to remind the FILTH*
a hundred thousand Belly,s will not forget, *they betrayed us*
SM you point out a difference, I asure you it lives only*ONLY in your head*
I did not have formal education.
But even as age catch,s me, ill health and other things, I will never lie TO PROVE MY POINT.
In my view, strongly held immovable! you avoid the truth, as certain in my mind as the press conference Abbott and his own Costello, Joe Hockey gave yesterday was nothing more or less than crafted CRAP.
SM you are not infallible, I most certainly am not either.
I understand,understood even when Swan and his mate Gillard, what a pair of fools, told us they would have a deffeset , *that they would not*
You, probably, know if in power, your team would not stop the economy in its tracks by enforcing one.
Unlike others here, we both understand personal dislike is no surety the other side is right.
We can if you wish, continue verbal combat, but know you will never pin me to the mat.
You mate do honestly, lack the ability to see the sand under your feet is washing away.
My contributions to this thread prove I under stand, fear, want to change, my party's fate.
Both UNIONS and Labor, can entrench the good reason they exist, by considering not just the views of the other side.
*BUT THE VIEWS OF THOSE THEY EXIST FOR*
Power brokers are filth.those funding Ashby are even worse.
*Your party should again become the Australian Liberal party*
Not for our country,s sake a branch of AMERICAS TEA PARTY.

Back to the threads direction.
It is Christmas, in my childhood not every one enjoyed it.
We MOSTLY DID.
But not always, pre the current levels of Social Security, you could be very hungry and we some times did.
I grew out of the Lunacy of Communism my dad would have wacked me, HARD, if he knew I flirted with them.
Briefly thought pure Socialism was an answer, he again would have boxed my ears.
Dad was anti Commo Labor to the boot straps.
We dreamed the dream that briefly came true in 1972.
And watched in pure pain as little by little we let foolish acts from fools within see us chucked out.
After knifing our Bill, and taking over Bob Hawk did us proud.
We gloated.
Then, Howard, dislike him if you want, he read this country's mind.
Even ME bound as I was to despise him , after his winning control of the senate , let him target?
His supporters, by cutting their kids rights at work.
Kevin 07! pain after Crean Latham, pain that big Kim had to be removed, no better man ever led us.
Pain too, read my post history it tells of it.
Bill Shorten a man I idolized, and my very birth right my great trade union.
Knifed Rudd.
Had Shorten replaced him?
My pain would be as bad, but it would have had a cure.
NSW Sussex Street filth is not gone.
It will push and pull this year, along with B S for and on behalf of?
POWER BROKERS, no longer faceless men, but two faced men.
Australian men ARE NEVER GOING TO ELECT GILLARD.
Maybe that is the plan, destroy then take over.
NSW filth ran on POWER BROKERS ENERGY, never let that happen again.
Next leader, never a power broker.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/under-the-hammer--hsu-boss-and-his-souvenirs-20121222-2bsja.html
Such trophy's are bought by every union.
At Charity fund raisers, to assist the cause.
More often than not,they are donated as raffle prises or auctioned for?
Another charity.
Most understand my thoughts about this Union.
It should be disbanded.
No one can convince me almost every one did not know.
I however ask balanced posters, even those who share my views,to look closely at this story.
Reporting has become a toy.
Here no investigation as to why these things are bought.
And avoidance of the good story behind the purchase.
SOME build whole mountains from such, here in OLO.
Have no doubt, it is my opinion winding the union up best serves its members ship.
At such an event a charity Auction to benefit needy
A benefit to that auction and Australia would be the shrunken head of at least some of the leadership.

http://www.news.com.au/national/alp-calls-police-on-mal-brough-scandal/story-fndo4bst-1226542407719
This link will not interest many, it is not going to feed their hunger for more anti Labor posts.
So SOME will avoid it.
Many will not care, see standards of debate are only in difense of their views not truth.
But too, on both sides, memory's will be bought to life.
In the first days of this Liberal scandal, if we let it, are truths, an admition looking at those diary's was mentioned even the request by MB maybe Pyne too for them.
Here is a truth, a live scandal exists and is being hidden.
And Liberals are, yes are, going to win office.
Not better policys,even Abbott if he uses current plans, will stop the boats/deliver the wishes some have.
And AUSTRALIAN POLITICS content to see only one sides wrongs lets us all down AGAIN.

We did not do too bad.
My thread had its wants from the first word I wrote.
See I STILL will vote Labor.
I am not unbalanced, having weighted up the all yes all things equal, they alone serve this country,s interests.
Broken heart are assured, for both sides.
History shows us that 1975 was just the same Labor knifed its self and a weak Liberal Prime Minister broke his sides heart.
Remember big Mal for what he was, not what he now is.
Abbott is lessor to him, then and now, he if not replaced is in it deep.
He can not keep his promises.
But why a LABOR FOOT SOLDIER as I will be till death writes like this.
FILTH, not just those under investigation in NSW, but SUSSEX Street VERMIN, one now working for packer.
Union filth, both known and not yet CAUGHT.
Betraying the reason both party and unions exist for.
TODAY if a conference was held, no matter how important
50% of the votes MUST BE UNION!
And those controled by?
Less than 5 men in every state! probably two in Victoria, one in QLD, 4 IN NSW.
What a way to run a party, but there not in Parliament, lives the engine that powered KEVIN RUDDS REMOVAL!
Remember, my party , after its loss, WILL PUT ONE OF THEM IN TO LEAD US!
Battlers nil power brokers? MILLIONS!
579 if reading, you best serve by demanding better not blind support

Belly

A definition of lunacy is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

"See I STILL will vote Labor."

I rest my case.

SM do not rest too easy.
It is you who will not aim at troubles in your camp.
Remember just how hard it is going to be when and you will, your team takes the reigns.
More dumped non core promises than Christmas gift wrappings at the local tip.
Turnbull, the incoming PM will however do much to remove the unpleasant taste of Abbott.s crew.
I rest assured, my party can over come its OWNERS, UNION HEADS.
It however have be saddled b y just one more, lets hope Bill Shorten does not sit on his blooded knife on getting that job.
Even better lets hope he never ever is rewarded for stuffing my party.
See not hard SM, fueled by a need for truth and honest, for a better ALP and UNION movement, I found it easy.
Was not thinking, not hard for me imposable for you.

Belly,

Leave the cooking sherry alone. The coalition did not have the same problems that Labor are. Mostly because they didn't have to lie to the voters.

Labor has broken just about every promise so far whether core or not.

Thanks for reminding me SM...the Coalition "invented" the terms "core" and "non-core" so they could squib on their promises.

Gotta hand it to them - when they ditch their promises, they put a little creativity into it.

Poirot,

Actually, "core" and "non core" have been common parlance for decades. Howard was referring to his cutting of public spending after Labor promising to deliver a surplus in 1996 delivered a huge (in those times) $9bn deficit.

Looks like history repeating itself. Labor Lying and running up debt.

SM,

Obviously "core" and "non-core" has been common parlance.....but the Howard government adopted it as an "ingenious" way to ditch their promises.

SM sorry to hear you are near broke.
Cooking sherry?
Only the finest of Port went into my pudding.
LOVE you exposing the unhappy man within you.
Never met an Injuneer I trusted with other than sweeping the office.
No good wishing you a happy new year you would grumble if it rained Gold Coins.
And try to convince me they are Silver, Buckley's bloke.
So? enjoy being unhappy.

Actually Poirot,

Howard used the phrase "non-core promise" once and once only to describe the spending cuts required to service Labor debt. No mention of core promises. Labor has expanded and used the term since.

That Labor merrily breaks all promises seems to escape them. Thus Labor has adopted the term Juliar.

Belly

That was pretty feeble.

Come now, SM...if Howard mentioned "non-core" promises, what he meant was is: "These are the promises that we do not intend to honour".

"Non-core" sounds much more amenable.

Poirot,

Either you are semi illiterate or being obtuse.

Given that Labor in usual fashion had broken its major promises and left a $9bn black hole in the budget, some sacrifices were required that would not have been necessary had the budget been in the shape that Labor claimed.

The choice was to continue Labor's spending and meet the low priority promises, or balance the budget and keep a fundamental promise that was core to Liberal values.

Labor appears to have no core values whatsoever.

Poirot you and I could be siblings.
SM often seems to aim his bile at you while targeting me.
I hope, well know you as I do see through the bloke
Sad but not unbearable year ahead for me.
Labors efforts to kill its self will bring defeat.
BUT too a Golden age of reform very long in coming but needed.
SM will see his party driven from rock to rock as folk for the first time actually compare their words with actions.
Forget the right wing ranters,hi the SM keeping up?
We are about to see after a couple of years true disquiet within Liberalism at the current rush to Tea Party junk.

It may be fitting to round up my thoughts and end this thread.
History, if some kind person reviews our words in say ten years may not be cruel to me.
See my words harsh as they have been, are in defense of my life,s loves the ALP and BETTER PART OF THE UNION MOVEMENT.
In Unions a difference exists.
Victoria we are told is to become the new home of the Australian Labor Party.
No surprise, SUSSEX Street killed it.
Shorten, Conroy, power brokers who own the Vic right add the ALP to their property list.
AS A REWARD FOR KNIFING RUDD!
See it now nice little home 3 rooms ONE FOR EACH Gillard, she is in the one nearest the back door.
Conroy in the middle one strings lead to Shortens room.
Shorten one white shoe one black.
And in the granny flat out the back?
An aging Swan, sternly telling all he has not got a crush on Gillard.
As the move to put bright and shiny Bill in to the seat, of a Labor party he helped kill, few will under stand.
No intention to get rid of power brokers and factionalism,can take place.
Without those wood lice voting themselves out of power!
Leader of the house Anthony, and Faulkner are the true jewels in Labors crown.
But while loyal to the death to party and its followers/membership, both are not from the power-broker, right.
On the day Turnbull removes Abbott, the ALP will be left so far behind it will be seen,the damage heedless power brokers fighting only for them selves has done.
I a hundred times, said Shorten is the man, he will get the job,but he well may not, not be the man, the one with the guts to put party before self.