Hi All,

I am just wondering as part of an independent research project if this statement relates to any mother/ carer at all.

'Are women finding it hard to return to their jobs due to a lack of childcare options?’

If so, the reasons behind this. Thank you all! Hope to hear from you soon (:

I think the answer just has to be yes.
What however is the solution?
Not for profit coops seems one answer.
Wounder if it would be possible for governments to fund such centers , some could be on school property.
Money spent would be returned by increased productivity.

Unfortunately, admin, there aren't that many women inhabiting this forum, and almost none who fit into the demographic of requiring childcare for very young children.

"coops"....."increased productivity".....strange society we've constructed for ourselves.

As a mother of my children, I can tell you it doesn't relate at all. It's a motherhood feel good issue trotted out by lobby groups looking for government to support their business, and a statement of female martyrdom by ardent feminists.

There is a very small group of people in some suburbs of Sydney who find it hard to find places, due to the fact, basically, that they can afford to live in such suburbs. The vast vast majority live in suburbs where there are ample places available, and have the help of grandparents to boot.

The only contentious issue is price. At my center it costs around $100 each per day for my 2 kids and that equates to $20000 a year (2 days a week). The government gives us back $10000, so basically you have to earn enough to make it worthwhile. ie. clear at least $10000 a year in after tax dollars for 2 days a week.

The less you earn, the more FTB you get, and there comes a point where it is more advantageous to not go to work, and stay at home with your kids. Or you can choose to work to maintain your skills and employ-ability.

I believe the price as an incentive point is about... Exactly right!

The cost is just enough to make it worthwhile keeping my partner working and keeping her skills current for when the kids go to school.

BUT, we could easily, at a doddle, scale back our spending and have one parent at home, taking into account the $10000 childcare saving and the increased FTB.

We have all the options, choices and accessibility in the world.

Everyone we know has even more choices as they have more grandparents available, Australia's greatest source of free labour, and some also live in suburbs where the cost is about 20% less, although they earn less so it works out about the same equation for them.

There should be no more subsidies for child care as I kid you not the centers raise their prices the next day.

Just read this article

"Claudia Bowman, a mother of three children under the age of four living in a Kings Cross apartment, said she belonged to a ''growing demographic of young families choosing to stay in this area once they decide to have kids or moving into the area after they have kids'"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/childcare-shortage-councillors-left-holding-the-babies-20121105-28uj3.html#ixzz2BOM12qmk

So, you move, with a family, to an inner city trendy area with no parks and no childcare facilities, then complain that there are no parks or childcare facilities.

It's just like people who move next door to a pub, and complain about the noise and try to get the pub shut down.

We all have options, there are green fields as far as the eye can see, and affordable childcare places with plenty of vacancies if you want to live any any one of the 100s of un-trendy suburbs west of Darling st.

Oh the humanity!

'Claudia Bowman, a mother of three children under the age of four living in a Kings Cross apartment'

Hahahha. I just cant get over that. For the price of that Kings Cross apartment she could probably afford a 700sq metre property with house and pool just a 30 minute bus ride to the CBD.

''I literally door-knocked and people opened their doors and started crying [about the lack of inner-city childcare]'' Cr Scott said. ''I can't express to you the emotions.''

It's natural for parents to cry about their children to anyone who's silly enough to listen, but I cannot fathom the illogic that people want to have children and then complain because they want others to have them instead.

WmTrevor,

Yes!

Of course, our society is encouraged to look at parenthood in that manner. One almost has to excuse themselves these days if they choose to stay at home and look after the tots. If Mrs A pays Mrs B to look after her infants then GDP rises. If Mrs A chooses to look after her own children, GDP is not affected.

Houellie,

I think you taking on the mantle of "mother" although you are male is instructive - that you are equally knowledgeable of your situation with young children as your partner (does she wish to be known as "father"?).

Bottom line is that there aren't too many on this forum with very young children - you are one of the few.

Well there aren't too many on this forum under 50 Poirot. I've always liked talking to oldies though.

'One almost has to excuse themselves these days if they choose to stay at home and look after the tots.'

It's a minefield. For a start Poirot, you aren't 'socialising' them. Secondly, you're letting the sisterhood down, or else you're a victim of The Patriarchy. Thirdly, you're harming the economy, as you say, which lets face it is the biggest crime one can be accused of, since the economy is our god. You are also an evil misogynist like Tony Abbott if you dare to have the woman in the home, and the man the provider.

How you live with yourself with all that I'll never know Poirot.

On the other hand my partner and I are neglecting our children for 2 days a week for our own selfish ends. Those ends being keeping my partner with a foot in the workforce and enabling a more comfortable lifestyle, with luxuries like showing off the kids to grandparents in my partners home country.

But as Trev rightly says, it's quite hilarious this idea of crying about child care.

Like I keep saying, there are so many options on how to live, and I can handle people making justifications like I have just made above, it's when people say they are just victims of circumstance it riles me up. Like moving to trendy inner city areas with no parks or childcare centres and complaining there are is no 'Childcare options, availability, accessibility'.

The government must do something!

It's my Human Right!

It's an Equality issue!

Nope. It's just families making choices for what best suits them.

It's an interesting discussion, and I'm going to embarrass myself, once again, by thinking this through as I type...

' Mrs A pays Mrs B to look after her infants then GDP rises. If Mrs A chooses to look after her own children, GDP is not affected.'

Lets quickly change that to Parent A pays Worker B... Cant upset the feminists.

So,

Case 1

PA earns $100k, WB gets paid what? $40k /4 = $10k (4 children to carer ratio) to look after child, PA pays say $30k Tax, and WB pays $5k tax and government gives PA $7500, Child care company gets $25k in fees from PA.

Case 2

PA earns $0, PA Pays $0 Tax, WB gets paid $30k (pro rata child care workers, or split them with chainsaw in Torrentino style) WB pays $3k tax and government pays $0 to PA, Child care company gets $0k in fees.

I'm no economist obviously, and there is company tax and all sorts of other variables but you have to draw a line somewhere. Not to mention the skills worker 2 being maintained, the profit of their employer, etc etc

Case 2 has a lot less churn for mine. There must be a lot of waste administering this round-a-bout. You could have the young, single energetic child care worker employed better and a parent with their own kids, and lose a government department!

All swings and roundabouts, that was a bit of dead end and waste of space but it's cup day, and I'm not looking to think today after all, more looking forward to my voyeurism via the misogynist media making Cup day about the sluttish drunken behavior of the young victim women at the races and the evil predatory men! Hahha! Misogyny! The word of 2012!

Hmmm. A drinking game entailing sculling whenever someone says 'The race that stops a nation'?

Shouldn't that be "The race that 'slops' a nation"?

Isn't there a push for after hours child care, as well.

Even as a late starter, I don't have kids in child care, but I have 2 of my kids that do.

One is brilliant, high income earner, & works from home. She walks the 6 year old to & from school, & has them after school. She often has to work from 8.00PM to 11.00PM to pay for this indulgence, & occasionally has to call in after school care when very busy.

Child care is readily available, but her husband drives 20Km to a preferred supplier with the 3 year old.

She recently refused a 14 day trip to Thailand with her mother, she'd miss her kids too much.

Youngest one with one child, works full time, with plenty of child care available. Complains how expensive child care is in Darwin.

She would like another, but can't afford to give up work, & reckons child care for 2, & on costs, would take almost all her after tax income, so not on.

She leaped at a trip to Thailand with her mum. Damn good thing too, or I'd have had to go, & I can't stand being a tourist, living out of a suit case.

I reckon it is about time we turned the clock back, & told people to have their kids, & pay for them themselves.

Poirot this is why men and women come from different planets.
My thought process is this, post the bankruptcy of our once biggest child care owners.
Cooperatives bought many, run them on a not for profit basis.
Because, truth hurts, some men have to play childish insulting games,
Seemingly because this is as close as they can get to a woman, it remains true, some of our best posters, WOMEN, have fled this site.
And because very few middle to aged men know the burden of child care, ASTRONOMICAL COSTS and yes mums unable, sometimes dad, stays home, to work because of costs I said as I did.
My answer, and I have one, is pure SOCIALISM, but in my view the best answer.
Increased productivity, is the gift paper it comes wrapped in, to help sell it.
But too, to play all sides of government WA&^% WORD BINGO!
Wealth creation, how I hate that mantra, it all so says poverty creation!
Poirot I am an activist, can STILL introduce you to the best single mum in the world.
She works in child care and doubles up as aged care, and her and her kids still go hungry.
Both are private enterprise things.
A government with guts would dump all baby bonuses leave associated with it.
And open in new buildings child minding centers in every school, charge only to retrieve costs.
Aged care? close the bottom end of the market and place every one of those victims in a government run Heavens waiting room, not the hell some are.
Dreadful bloke that I am I will retreat to my planet.

Is there a way of achieving maximum utility in all this?

The basic premise is paying someone else to look after children.

This needs to be affordable, not depend on where the parents live, require least government subsidy and regulation, enable maximum flexibility and parental choice. An additional benefit would be enabling parents to think they are doing a good thing.

Now I've checked on the Internet and World Vision, for example, has some very good deals going in child care commencing at less than $1.50 per day per child – and that's for 24 hours not a measly 8 AM to 6 PM.

This is considerably better value than Houellebecq's $100 per child per (one third of a) day.

It obtains several advantages in addition to meeting the above criteria. There's heaps of choice about age, gender, location et cetera. Your child's picture on its little postcard thingie is portable and can go with you wherever you want, without inconvenience to you. You can bask in the knowledge that your 'hard earned' is going to people who will benefit most from it. Whilst simultaneously reducing the need for Australian government aid subsidies.

Plus, just as in "would you like fries with that" optional extras include; the ability to visit your child – but only if and when and for as long as it suits you; being considerate of their friends by buying their village a goat, wheelbarrow or a water pump for instance; trade-up and change-over options enabling you to always be fashionably up-to-date in preferred children types; and, most importantly opt-out-at-anytime clauses if you get sick of the tax deductibility.

I also believe there are distinct advantages for couples who can no longer stand the sight of each other as it enables them to have children without the requirement or inconvenience of sex.

But as has been pointed out it's Cup Day though unlike some I don't need a game in order to drink… inexplicably I feel like having a win or place on Ethiopia.

I can’t answer the question; I avoid childcare, day care, long day care, home day care, and preschool type places like the plague they are.

I did think (in fact last time I was on here it was talked about) that Aussie had just pushed through some mandatory child care thing for parents or they can’t access benefits. Must dump child and go to TAFE type rubbish.

But I was wondering where did the females go?

They also send you fridge magnets Trevor and one should never underestimate the joy of owning a decent fridge magnet.

TPP - Yippee!...we need you around here : )

WmTrevor - I agree with The Pied Piper.

I remember when my son was an infant. It had been a long time since my daughter was that age as there is a nineteen year difference in their ages. This time around we seemed to be hounded by all and sundry to put him into daycare - so he could be "socialised" (as Houellie pointed out)

In the end I acquiesced, although my heart wasn't in it. We saw quite a few other children just in the daily course of existence and we went to "playgroup" as an adjunct to "life". Anyway we found a nice little daycare joint and off he went for one day a week. Aside from on the first day one of the attendants pulling his arm too hard (which sent us to the hospital to have his "pulled arm" righted,) I persevered and watched with incredulity as our little daycare was taken over by a larger combine - which in turn was bought out by ABC - which shut down the little daycare and built a bigger monster in another suburb - which led to me withdrawing him from the whole shenaigans as the corporate show seemed to have run its course.

My boy who doesn't attend an institution is the most sociable child I know...despite me blowing a raspberry to institutionalisation.

Btw, we sponsor two kids in Ethiopia through World Vision. Our newest sponsored child is a boy who was born on the same day as my son. I'm hoping the two of them can find some common ground in their letters. I'm thinking my son can learn a lot from the interaction, about the world and how people have different experiences.

Hey there Poirot! I’m in full agreement to raspberry blowing.

I see a lot of pressure now to place children into daycare etc. Now that my children’s friends have begun producing offspring all over the place the talk from birth seems to be about when they will return to work and where to stuff baby while they do it. Husbands work mates the talk is remarkably similar with the people in their 40’s popping them out to insert them into the nearest available inner city facility asap.

Mine stayed home, played with all the neighbour’s children and hit school at 5 years old with a flurry of new best friends and sleep overs and sneaking off to the local shop with their lunch money to buy lollies before school just like all the other brats in their new found gang. Gangette? Sorry “peer group” was the phrase I was looking for.

My son (now 22) sponsors a child so I figure he represents the whole family. I took the fridge magnet though and that will teach him not to spend his lunch money on lollies. My logic is sound.

After years of letterbox drops and collections from local businesses, the latest being from my excellent local pizza emporium (Ptomaine Tony's), The Pied Piper/Poirot, my fridge is totally covered with magnets – so the only way I could entertain the idea of sponsoring a child would be to buy another fridge.

"Gangette?" What about "group without peer" the next time you're looking for a phrase?

PIED PIPER! GOOD ON YOU KID!
Never ever leave again,
Wm Trevor think the world vision thing, maybe wrong, is in third world country s.
We need answers.
If enough of us demanded it we could get it.
But like leaves dropping from trees, people will not commiteto taking action unless some thing is in it for them.

How goes it Belly babe?

I got busy, I just never know what will turn up on my doorstep or for how long that drags me away suddenly.

I couldn’t remember where I was at so I went and did a OLO search on my name, gave me a giggle. I was being a bit of a brat.

But for this thread I vote Trevor gets a new fridge... one of those flash double wide french door jobbies.

And I haven’t heard of child care not being available in an abundance of forms that you actually have to work very hard at avoiding.

I’m surprised Houels kids aren’t in school yet; they seem to have spent such a long time being young.

I came across Hasbeens thread as I was watching a doco about Yasi which I thought outdid Sandy but couldn’t think of anything intelligent to say on the subject so stayed out of it.

Just think of all those poor mums having to bung the tots in daycare so they can go out and earn enough to buy an extra fridge to put the magnets on.

Fair makes you weep, it does : (

'couldn’t think of anything intelligent to say on the subject so stayed out of it.'

That's never stopped me from getting involved.

I was living 'abroad' at the time, but was there ever a terrorism fridge magnet? Or is that an old wives tale? Has anyone got one, I'd like one as a collectors item.

Child care probably is an essential service for some single mums we shouldn't judge.

If there's one thing the feminists have taught me it's that women should be immune from judgement. I reckon I've done pretty well as I can judge 5 day a weekers and also knock 'unsocialised' children and ask their mothers 'what do you do all day?' or just slyly state 'I would be so bored at home, I need some intellectual stimulation myself. But good on you love'. Ah, I've spent too much time around fellow mothers. Another fun thing to watch is people's definitions of 'sleeping through the night', and hearing 'I just use a bottle sometimes as a top-up', and any performance from any child always brings an old chestnut of 'He's teething'.

Life is one big platter of people to mock, and I thank Him every day. Just for runner.

Ha, ha..."sleeping through the night".

It's a well known fact that if you're a new parent and you happen to be comparing notes with other new parents, that their new bundle of joy will have been sleeping through the night from day one. In my experience, everyone had tiny babies that slept through the night - except us.

This topic came up some years back when my oldest younger sister had her first...

When they were still both alive, Mother told me that I slept through the night from day one, and that I could check that in fact, was what Nanny had told her.

Mine slept through the night except when going through a growth spurt which happened every two days and lasted 48 hours. Teething made mine bite other children, throw toys and swear at an early age.

I do agree, childcare is essential for the working single parent (see I said parent and you said “single mums” cause you Houel obviously hate women).

I don’t like it being forced on all children via pressuring parents, much like vaccinations. And you can’t be pressured into dropping little [insert appropriate childlike name] off at daycare because they wont let her/him in without aforementioned mercury filled poisons can you?

When my kids were being raised unsocialised I did more than when they started school and I kept wondering what to do with all this free time so started raising other peoples children and unsocialising them. It’s all for the gooder great.

I had heard that Nanny’s have special formulas for making babies sleep through the night Trevor.

Hey where are the females, what have you done with them? I think I spotted Suzy earlier… Foxy? Fractelle? Pelican? Bronwyn? Was it Antiseptic? Was it? Oh was it Cornflower? Was there a big show down?

TPP,

Well it is a dwindling population of women posters around here in comparison to when I first arrived. Lexi has disappeared lately - don't know why, and we're somewhat concerned it may be a health issue. Suze and Pelican pop on here only very occasionally these days. Fractelle/Severin was shown the door sometime around the beginning of this year. Pynchme bailed out ages ago....anyway, it was getting to me slightly, so good to see you back : )

WmTrevor,

T'was the night Australia won the America's Cup - and I was up all night (rare for me coz I like my sleep)...and my daughter decided at 13 months that she would sleep through for the first time - I mean I was up all night anyway!!

13 months… wow! Some children annoy their parents by not doing what is wanted. But only the really clever and prescient children wait to do the right thing, but in circumstances that somehow still cause annoyance to the parents.

WmTrevor,

Yeah, both my kids were slow to master the sleeping through thing, although once out of infancy they both became excellent sleep-throughers. I'll add that they only ever woke up for a feed and a change and always went down again with no trouble in a short space of time, so I can't complain : )

Gee I must be older than I thought.

I actually remember a time when women didn't have to go to work (unless they wanted to) and the man of the house could modestly support a family on his wage alone.

It was like that in the USA too (the "Happy Days" era - the post WW2 Great American Dream).

I wonder what went wrong?

In the USA case it was mainly the importation of cheap labor from Mexico that drove down local wages and the subsequent introduction of women into the workplace as a source of underpaid cheap labor.

As for paid child care - If You Can't Feed 'em, Don't Breed 'em.
Don't expect the taxpayer to keep subsidising what are essentially lifestyle choices indefinitely.

One day they will take it away and then where will you be?

TPP going to pull the pin on this thread.
Men and women do think differently.
My mind is fixed on the Mums and dads who MUST WORK the bottom of in income and lifestyle heap type.
The costs of child care not the right or wrongs of it.
So better to leave than let my views upset.
See you on another thread.
PS my targeted group mostly will never own a home, sometimes a car.

I don’t know Wobbles, I suspect women started going to work and then couples started buying stuff and needing daycare. Or was it the other way around and the cost of living increased and women had to get out there and start working?

But I think what we are heading towards now is parents not bonding with children or knowing their children that they’ve had weekends with since three months old.

See you in another thread Belly. I don’t think your views would upset anyone though. :)

17 years ago I babysat children from my neighbourhood for $10.00 a day (more often than not it wasn’t paid anyways), all this time later I’m still happy to do that and my daughter will help her mates lighten the load. But I’d much rather go back to what Wobbles remembers.

Same Poirot, I don’t remember sleeping through the night being a big deal but I do remember soon as they were out of cots I would wake up to find my kids had snuck into bed with me. One bonus of being a single mum is there was always room for the kids.

The mention of a drinking game got me searching... for the teetotallers this can be played as Bingo only but is easily adapted to include drinks as desired:

http://tinyurl.com/6s5uqk

"My mind is fixed on the Mums and dads who MUST WORK the bottom of in income and lifestyle heap"

How much of our government policy is in theory based around that part of the population often doing those who do fit the category well little of no good and great harm to many others (and an improved profit to some business owner).

If the government subsidises the cost of something to help that group out the price tends to rise making it less affordable for others and once again pushing it out of range for the genuinely poor.

We struggle to work out who is trully in need of help and who is just along for the ride.

Far to many areas where the rest of us suffer at the hands of government because someone had their mind fixed on one extreme of a situation ignoring the impact of the "fix" on most others.

We need to care forthe genuinely needy but always the larger picture needs to be considered as well.

R0bert

Thank you for all your opinions and comments regarding my research question. If any of you (who currently have children in childcare) are willing to participate in a questionnaire I have generated, please feel free to search: childcare questionnare. This will be kept completely anonymous and no names or personal details need to be given. Thank you all once again.