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The Forum > General Discussion > Please Explain?

Please Explain?

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Just months ago Gillard told the EU how to run their economies, much to the laughter of real economic managers and world leaders.

Even though Greece has been the scapegoat and dunce of Euro economics in the world press over the past year primarily because of a citizen’s debt of $43K for every man woman and child in the country, we have beat the Greeks hands down.

With Australia’s debt running up to $200 BILLION every man woman and child now owes $91K.

This figure does not incorporate State debt, and every Labor State government that was thrown out of government in the past three years has left their citizens with as much as $31K per woman man and child.

OUR TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT IS A RECORD 1 TRILLION DOLLARS.

Five years ago every man woman and child in Australia was in credit to the tune of .93 cents each.

I grapple to understand why Labor voters stick their hands back into the fire when those that they support do not give two stuffs about them their families or their futures. Could the Labor supporters advise me as to the reasoning behind their choice to continue to support a failed team, “please explain”?
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 8:34:52 AM
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I will try SOG to put it in words you can understand.
Some of us, do not have the confidence in you , you have in your self.
Having made a statement you then except it as true.
I have seen some words from you that are, well not believable.
I rather think you should read the current views about the ONLY POSSIBLE PM bar the disastrous Gillard.
His miss use of truth stacks mountain high.
His self worth higher and miss placed too.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 4:55:24 PM
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TRILLION DOLLARS?

Please explain where you got that figure from?

http://www.debtclock.com.au/
Posted by Bugsy, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 5:14:21 PM
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Bugsy>> TRILLION DOLLARS?
Please explain where you got that figure from?<<

Read em and weep bugsy. We currently have the highest debt ratio to GDP in the history of this fair commonwealth, and the citizen portion of that debt via our government has gone from .93 credit to $90K each for every single one of us.

Wikipedia>> The economy of Australia is one of the most developed, modern market economies in the world, with a GDP of approximately US$1.6 trillion.[14] Australia's total wealth is 6.4 trillion dollars. In 2011, it was the 13th largest national economy by nominal GDP[15] and the 17th largest measured by PPP adjusted GDP, representing about 1.7% of the World economy. External debt is $1.169 trillion (31 December 2010 est.)<<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia

Belly my china, you talk the talk but you don’t supply verifiable, on public record statistics as I do.

The only thing you have to say is that Abbott is a zero, perhaps he is, we will see….but it does not answer my facts…it’s still my team right or wrong, it’s simplistic to the extreme….perhaps that’s why they call myopic socialists such as your good self Fabian extremists……you have no point of view other than the regurgitated party line…four legs good….two legs bad….bah…bah.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 11:50:44 PM
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Utter rubbish as usual.

The external debt figure is total debt, the majority of which is privately held by individuals and corporations.

Even Howard retired his "debt truck" once the private debt figure kept multiplying every year.

It's the same misleading nonsense as alleging China was opening a new power plant every 3 minutes - that's 175,200 per year, but I think that's somewhat unlikely.
Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 13 September 2012 1:00:41 AM
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Wobbs, what is rubbish? The Trillion dollar debt? I said it was the total debt. It incorporates a balance of trade component. Did not mislead and the figure is fact…..so what is utter rubbish Wobbs?.......please explain.

I know that Howards “debt truck” was bequeathed to him from the outgoing Labor clowns, who were a load less clownish than the current post grad Labor clowns who have ruined our nation.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 13 September 2012 9:15:36 AM
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There are different categories of debt, which is why it is hard to get
a single figure. One is government issue bonds, which stand near
$250 billion. Other government borrowings are on top of that.

Our problem is how to repay the debt when growth is low and falling.
As our oil fields and gas fields are depleting the companies are
closing their Australian refineries. We will be dependant on imports
of refined product at escalating prices. Our imports currently cost
about $20 billion a year. When Bass Strait closes that import bill
reach about $30 billion a year.
That is an NBN EVERY year !

It is those figures that make Martin Ferguson the only adult in the government.
High immigration is a negative also as growth is low and everything
has to be divided by larger numbers.

There is no choice, but more saving and less fancy projects.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 13 September 2012 10:08:10 AM
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Just one moment there, sonofgloin.

>>Five years ago every man woman and child in Australia was in credit to the tune of .93 cents each.<<

Please explain?
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 13 September 2012 10:40:42 AM
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There seems to be much confusion here about the figures.

Last figure I saw our government debt was $166 billion, so I expect it to be around $200 billion by Christmas. This is the amount the government has borrowed to run the country. This is the important figure and will mean at,say, 5% interest we will be paying about $10 billion/year in interest alone. To cover that interest and make any repayments on the capital it will mean that services will have to be cut and/or taxes go up.

NSW, Qld and Vic governments are now in this position with their state governments having to cut services to pay for the previous governments over expenditure. One can see from the daily news that people do not like it, but opponants fail to suggest where the neccessary cuts should be made.

An even bigger problem federally is that this government keeps promising massive annual spending like dental plan $4 billion, NDIS $10 billion? and education $6.5 billion. Either many are going to be bitterly disappointed or there will be massive rises in taxes. Remember these are annual running costs for these schemes, the funds have to come from somewhere.
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 13 September 2012 11:04:02 AM
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Pericles>> Just one moment there, sonofgloin.

>>Five years ago every man woman and child in Australia was in credit to the tune of .93 cents each.<<

Please explain?<<

Pericles I took the $20 BILLION govt surplus that Kev inherited and divided it by the population, we were all in credit of roughly 90 cents per citizen. In the same manner I divided the Labor govt debt by the population and came up with $90K debit per citizen.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 13 September 2012 3:27:46 PM
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There's some pretty dodgy maths going on here.
Conflation of figures and imprecise language as well?

Labor debt? Total debt? Does 'Labor debt' include my mortgage?

A 'Budget surplus' does not mean a net saving with no debts. It means that the government collected more taxes than it was required to distribute to pay off debts and liabilities (i.e payroll etc). I'm pretty sure that the government was still in debt to the tune of approx 40 billion dollars in 2007.

This thread is silly.
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 13 September 2012 4:01:21 PM
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Bugsy>> There's some pretty dodgy maths
Conflation of figures
Does 'Labor debt' include my mortgage?
A 'Budget surplus' does not mean It mean
In debt to the tune of approx 40 billion dollars in 2007.
This thread is silly.<<

Bugsy, I will put it as succinctly as I can for you:
The Fraser govt inherited NO debt from the Whitlam govt.
The Frazer govt passed on a debt of 40 billion to the Hawke govt.
The Hawke govt passed on a debt of 96 billion to the Howard govt
The Howard govt retired the debt and passed a surplus of 20 billion to the Kev govt.

These are facts Bugs, I didn’t dream them up, but I use them to make judgments …..try it…it will be some new sillyness for you to experience tiger.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 13 September 2012 4:53:18 PM
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With some union officials earning $300000 a year plus lurks and perks you can see why many of the current crop of Labour party pollies spend like drunken soldiers. Even that wasn't enough for some of them. They are use to 'entitlement'money not having to work for it themselves. They have spent other peoples money all their lives. Spending other peoples money does no harm to the Pollies. They know in the end they can raise workers taxes to pay fom their wanton waste. Greece is the textbook of our Government. Don't forget the thousand or so that had junkets to CopenHagen for the world's biggest 'moral 'challenge. Have a laugh otherwise you will cry.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 13 September 2012 5:08:21 PM
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The Office of Financial Management shows the government offering bonds
for bids each week. The offers are usually around $1,000,000,000 each
week. The maximum allowed was recently increased by parliament from
$220 Billion to $250 billion.
This is the $150 million a day borrowing that you hear referred to.
So thats where I got my figure from when I said that there are a
number of categories of debt.
Direct government borrowing is separate to the bond sales.
It will be about 20 weeks before we need to increase the $250 billion.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 13 September 2012 6:12:32 PM
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Right. I see now where you went wrong, sonofgloin.

<<Pericles I took the $20 BILLION govt surplus that Kev inherited and divided it by the population, we were all in credit of roughly 90 cents per citizen. In the same manner I divided the Labor govt debt by the population and came up with $90K debit per citizen.<<

In fact, you took a current account surplus - which is an annual measure of the difference between the amount the government extracts from us in taxes and the amount it spends on government services - hospitals, that sort of thing. And compared it to the total external debt.

A common mistake, don't feel too bad about it.

I suspect you may have found your numbers in the Barnaby Joyce encyclopedia of fiscal fantasy. You can tell, because it's the one written in crayon.

You should try the Australian Bureau of Statistics instead

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/5302.0June%202012?OpenDocument

In Table 31, you will find that our gross external debt has indeed risen in the past five years - hardly surprising, if you have been watching the news recently. But the 2007 figure is only a smidgeon under a trillion dollars - that's debt, not surplus.

You can also check your other assertions while you are about it - they don't stack up either.

>>The Fraser govt inherited NO debt from the Whitlam govt.
The Frazer govt passed on a debt of 40 billion to the Hawke govt.
The Hawke govt passed on a debt of 96 billion to the Howard govt
The Howard govt retired the debt and passed a surplus of 20 billion to the Kev govt.<<

I'm not going to do all your research for you, that would be patronizing. But to save you wading through all those non-crayon-written numbers, I can tell you that the amount of gross foreign debt when John Howard became Prime Minister in March 1996 was $262 billion.

When he left office in December 2007, it was $964 billion.

That's a pretty impressive achievement.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 13 September 2012 7:17:26 PM
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That's not fair Pericles. Using actual real verifiable facts on a poor right whinger like that.

He just wanted to rant, couldn't you just leave him alone?
Posted by Bugsy, Thursday, 13 September 2012 8:03:57 PM
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Pericles, your good self and Bugs are debating from a flawed premise. I clearly delineate between “total gross national debt” and “govt debt. Australia’s total gross debt may well have been 262 billion, but the govt debt handed down to Howard was 96 billion.

You have to differentiate between gross national debt and govt debt, I did. Just to explain in terms that you might understand, we right now have a record govt debt of nearly 200 billion, so how could Howard have a govt debt of 262 billion…..that figure is the gross national debt Pericles.

Crayons is it Pericles lol.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 13 September 2012 8:16:32 PM
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It's rubbish because I am not personally liable for your mortgage payments and you are not liable for my credit card debt.

The suggestion that total debt is divided evenly among the entire population is plain wrong.

The debt truck was a Howard election stunt that used the same misleading suggestion but had to be dropped because the private debt was exploding while government debt decreased. It had become more than triple the amount he started with and naturally continues to grow as the economy expands.

Another false premise the media use is comparing the national budget to a household budget.

No household has a population that continues to grow or can increase its income with the stroke of a pen or counts IOUs that may never be paid (like HECS fees) as income.
Posted by wobbles, Friday, 14 September 2012 2:03:23 AM
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http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/sometimes-it-takes-a-troll-to-know-one-20120913-25v40.html
I think this link is food for thought, for all of us.
We are seeing more abuse less fact, more heated views not even linked to truth.
And yes open abuse instead of debate
Posted by Belly, Friday, 14 September 2012 4:41:48 AM
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Wobbs, you have also extended what I said, as Pericles and Bugs did.

Once again for the illiterate, my factual and valid thumbnail calculation of dividing our COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT debt by the number of citizens in this nation is credible, simple as that and no spin can alter that fact.

The GROSS NATIONAL DEBT, the one that includes consumer and private sector debt is not is not in my calculation. That figure is the 1 trillion that I mentioned, not the 200 billion that encompasses our GOVERNMENT DEBT. There is a difference between billion and trillion, the difference is a load of zero’s, much like the zero’s that have responded with rubbish spin and deflection to my post.

Belly thank you for exhibiting the spin and deflection that deaf dumb and blind Labor acolytes throw up when facts do not suit their position. What has a radio host got to do with the numbers I portrayed? Bugger all came the reply.

Belly I supply numbers and you supply spin and dribble. Pericles attempted to supply numbers but failed miserably in understanding the premise, so the numbers were useless.

Belly if you are going to call me troll, just do it. Your pathetic passive aggressive style of linking my words to those of a radio journo that does not barrack for your team is gutless and girly. I wrote this not Hadley and I use figures not descriptive to qualify my views.

Belly it is not my fault we have the highest GOVERNMENT DEBT since federation. I did not go to parliament and raise the amount of funds that the COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT can legally borrow…..LABOR DID.

All of the regurgitating Labor cronies on OLO do not have a clue, bereft of reality; you make it up as you go along. I am not a troll Belly, but you are a simple soul and your illustrious career as a Unionist stands right alongside the hallowed names of other peoples representatives of the union movement such as…..CRAIG THOMPSON…….Belly that is trolling, adding slurs without factual content .
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 14 September 2012 8:24:19 AM
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sonofgloin,

What's "factual" in regard to your mention of Craig Thomson?

Can you outline the charges brought against him?

I presume you're going on "allegations" and the findings of the discredited FWA "investigation".
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 14 September 2012 8:50:27 AM
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Nice try sonofgloin, but that doesn't wash.

Because if you say "The GROSS NATIONAL DEBT, the one that includes consumer and private sector debt is not is not in my calculation", and that you do not calculate the total national debt, just the government debt, and assuming that it is actually 200billion (it is calculated to be less than that), then the distributed debt is less than 10K per person, not 90K.

Your maths is dodgy mate.

Admittedly, there may have been no net government debt in 2007, so what may have happened in 2008 that made it turn around? Oh right, it was the election, not the near total effing meltdown of the global financial system. You know, the one that forced the Bush administration to start the TARP bailout fund at USD700billion.

No, of course that would be silly, it must have been the election, those lefties don't know how to handle money or do maths do they?
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 14 September 2012 9:09:26 AM
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I think that might be your personal best, sonofgloin, in terms of tap-dancing.

Let me refresh your memory:

>>OUR TOTAL NATIONAL DEBT IS A RECORD 1 TRILLION DOLLARS.
Five years ago every man woman and child in Australia was in credit to the tune of .93 cents each.<<

These were consecutive sentences in your opening post. If you were not attempting to compare the two, what was the point of the juxtaposition?

Then there was this:

>>With Australia’s debt running up to $200 BILLION every man woman and child now owes $91K<<

There are 22 million people in Australia.

$200 billion, divided by 22 million is... oh dear.

I think you might need a new calculator, sonofgloin.

So please, spare us the lectures on "left-wing" mathematics...

>>All of the regurgitating Labor cronies on OLO do not have a clue, bereft of reality; you make it up as you go along...<<

Bereft of reality eh?

Have a great day. And find a ten-year-old somewhere to help you work your calculator. They probably also have some crayons you could use.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 14 September 2012 9:50:59 AM
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"..not the near total effing meltdown of the global financial system..."

Precisely!

Although it's something conveniently overlooked by partisan political commenters.

And what's more telling is that it was the private sector that brought us low - which was consequently bailed out by government. Added to that the billions pumped into the market by governments around the world when things first got jittery.

Australia under Rudd might have been able to provide a better organised stimulus, however, the debt racked up is what saved us from sliding into the same situation as much of Europe and the US.

Btw, America is at it again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-14/us-federal-reserve-ups-stimulus-spend/4260662

And this is why -

Last November their government debt hit 15 trillion (big news at the time). It's now over 16 trillion and rising - athough I note the debt clock has a new category called "US public debt subject to limit" which is just under 16 trillion - not for long. Gross US debt is up 3 trillion to just under 57 trillion in the same time frame.
http://usdebtclock.org
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 14 September 2012 10:02:10 AM
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sonofgloin said;
we right now have a record govt debt of nearly 200 billion

Is that $200billion additional to the approx $240 billion outstanding bonds ?
I think it probably is additional.
Someone here had a go at Barnaby Joyce, but if fact Barnaby was right !
As he pointed out those bonds have to be repaid so they are a debt.
Wayne Swan tried to make fun of Barnaby saying he had it wrong.
In fact he had it right because those bonds are a debt.
If any of you have Australian Govt bonds do you expect to be repaid ?
So it is a debt, and has to be added to other govt debt.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 14 September 2012 12:51:15 PM
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I'll give you some assistance for future reference, sonofgloin… "There is a difference between billion and trillion, the difference is a load of zero’s…"

The difference is in fact three zeros.

And unless you meant strictly in dollar terms, you should prepare to be called to account about "Belly it is not my fault we have the highest GOVERNMENT DEBT since federation."

One of the more useful comparators is 'Australian government net debt to GDP'.
Posted by WmTrevor, Friday, 14 September 2012 2:04:01 PM
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Bugs and Pericles, sorry guys I stand corrected....the debt per individual is $10K.....not 90K.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 14 September 2012 6:58:51 PM
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PS.

B and P, I also GENUINELY appologize for the smart arse comments about your calculaations, I was on a roll with a delusional calculation and I let my fingers do the typing rather than my brain...SOG
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 14 September 2012 7:08:21 PM
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PPS.

I forgot to apologize to my china Belly.....so apologies on this one Belly.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 14 September 2012 7:15:03 PM
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Disregarding the $9.1K and the $91K blunder I found another. I calculated that we were in credit to the tune of 93 cents with Howards 20 billion surplus, but the figure is $930, so folks the premise still stands.

We still have the most indebted Commonwealth government in history. Given that each and every one of us owe $9.1K, a record. What did we get for our $9K?

The stimulus packages were haphazardly administrated leaving them open to corruption and overcharging.

Home units charged for 16 insulations when none were carried out, boys that died in sweltering roofs and the 200 house fires and accompanying deaths, an issue that needed further hundreds of millions spent on inspections and rectification.

Then there came the BER, and other education revolutions.
>> $23,044 in "landscaping fees" for 17 pot plants and four square metres of turf -- and substandard construction, in submissions to the NSW parliamentary inquiry into the BER. Building costs at 10 schools have blown out by identical amounts totaling $4.5 million after the price of modular libraries soared from $850,000 to $1.3m.< The Australian
– Christopher Pyne The New South Wales Government needs to hold a judicial inquiry into the school hall programme after reports that only 64 per cent of funding allocated to government schools was spent on building costs with the rest absorbed by management fees and other costs.
– Christopher Pyne MP The Auditor-General has found Labor’s literacy and numeracy national partnership has produced no improvement in student outcomes despite $540 million in payments over the last four years.
TAXPAYERS have spent $11.7 million sprucing up 33 schools that were shut down after being given federal grants for new buildings and renovations.
TBC
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 14 September 2012 9:22:32 PM
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Then SOLAR
TAXPAYERS paid more than ten times the government’s $23 a tonne carbon price to cut greenhouse emissions under Labor’s $324 million solar schools program. The Auditor-General Ian McPhee found the cost of carbon abatement under the scheme, to put solar panels on school roofs, was a “considerable” $284 a tonne.
The domestic scheme failed as well.
Set Top
Labor’s wasteful spending continues unabated, this time in the form of overpriced Set Top Boxes: EVERY set-top box delivered under Labor’s digital TV rollout could be costing the taxpayer an average of $698 — almost double the government’s original estimate, more than 30 times the cost of a box bought at a department store.

Skills Programme
A KEY $2.1 billion federal government skills program designed to provide 711,000 training places over five years was so badly administered that evaluators couldn’t tell who it had trained, according to a report obtained under Freedom of Information. (WE PAID 2 BILLION AND THE PEOPLE WE PAID IT TO COULD NOT TELL US WHO THEY TAUGHT) http://laborwaste.com.au/

Labor has accumulated nearly $200 billion worth of deficits. They are borrowing $135 million every day and they will be spending $7.5 billion on interest repayments by 2014.

What redeeming civic administration feature does this government possess? How can one justify supporting this government at the cost of our tax money going overseas for the foreseeable future. It cost around 2 billion to build a decent size teaching hospital in Australia at present; we will have spent 3 hospitals in interest in the next two years, and many more to follow.

This government is not taking care of the nations interests or that of the people…they are playing ideologies, they are well paid ideologues unlike the majority of those who follow them. As the thread title asks, give reasons to support this government.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 14 September 2012 9:22:47 PM
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Perhaps the alternative of letting us slide into a GFC recession with unemployment hitting European levels of 25%, some bank collapses and mass property foreclosures is the preferred option.

The standard Conservative solution would have been to reduce wages even further to assist businesses and to further cut taxes at the upper levels. Somehow I think that would have been a spectacular failure.

Meanwhile we just have to struggle along somehow with a healthy economy until Abbott comes to rescue us all.
Posted by wobbles, Saturday, 15 September 2012 2:30:09 AM
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No Wobbles, it is now known that we would not have gone into collapse
like the US & Europe. However the government and treasury should have known that.
The man in the street did not know that of course, so it was easy to
con him that the government was our Saviour.
It seems that the reason we did not go into the GFC fully was because
that liberal man Peter Costello had brought in banking regulations that
prevented the banks from sticking their collective necks out too far.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 15 September 2012 10:41:02 AM
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Wobbs, in 2008 we were not in the same financial boat as the Northern hemisphere. Subprime loans constituted over 20% of mortgages in the US between 2004 and 2008. In Australia they encompassed only 2% of property loans. Our lending institutions were not exposed to subprime to any real degree. Our government only guaranteed savings, whereas in Europe and the US the governments actually bailed out the banks with tax payer funds.

So a knee jerk reaction to a potential problem saw value for money disregarded and billions going into the pockets of a few. The likes of Reid Holdings (now bankrupt) were a primary contractor to the BER. A COLA which cost $80K pre stimulus, cost $160K during the BER. Catholic and private schools who self managed their handout got twice the value for money that the Public School system got. Private schools built brick buildings and the public schools got ludicrously priced demountables from the back of a truck for their near 1 million dollar budget.

The further issue was that the subcontractors that Reid and others used to do the work , the tradies, were paid at pre BER rates and the overcharge was eaten up in bullsheiser onsite costs and admin fees pocketed by the corporation and the state governments (but I have to add that the NSW Labor thieves were the most brazen). Who was watching where the borrowed money was being spent…..not the Federal Labor government.

In NSW Labor and their corporate mates took 36% of the allocated billions in admin and sundry government charges as found by the Audit General. NSW Labor stole the BER money and Canberra did nothing about it.
TBC
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 15 September 2012 10:57:05 AM
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Wobbles convince me that the group of people who govern us now, are capable of doing the job. I would think that the majority of voters select a party on their personal ethos rather than the party’s ability to manage the affairs of state.

You have the “business guy” voting “right” because he sees the macro and accepts that “collateral damage” is a cost someone pays to achieve his end, whereas the left voter sees the micro and has compassion for the “collateral damage”.

Wobbs, I witnessed the adoption of the “Third Way” by Hawke and Keating this centrism of policy saw economic rationalism, reductions in trade tariffs, and the people become “collateral damage” for the ideology. These people currently masquerading as the ALP are imposters. The whole ALP branch movement has become nothing except a pool of plebs to do the leg work at election time.

Rather than telling me that Abbott and his lot are zero’s, tell me something positive about the current Labor crop.

Lastly, I keep telling you guys that I vote on the day….the Coalition are not my team; I do not defend the Libs so degrading them as a response to me means nothing. I could go through a load of their failings and unfit for task individual characteristics starting with that charade that is Joe Hockey….but they are not governing or stuffing it up dramatically.

Again, why support Labor.
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 15 September 2012 10:57:16 AM
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WmTrevor >> I'll give you some assistance for future reference, sonofgloin…

"There is a difference between billion and trillion, the difference is a load of zero’s…"

The difference is in fact three zeros <<

Talk about kick a man when he is down, a math lesson with a smirk, thanks Trev, how astute and witty of you champ…three zero’s, the difference between a billion and a trillion….I can name the three zero’s for you Trev.
Oakeshot
Windsor
Wilkey

Now that is witty Trev, unlike your offering, lift your game Trev.
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 15 September 2012 11:09:38 AM
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