Almost daily, we're assailed with media reports of yet another dreadful crime being occasioned against some innocent man, woman or child.

What is society's remedy ? If not a mandatory Death Penalty, for these heinous and atrocious crimes.

What other punishment is both available and appropriate ?

Personally, I DO NOT support the death penalty for any offence. I'm probably amongst only a small handful of ex police or law enforcement members who don't support such a draconian and vengeful punishment. Then perhaps I'm very wrong too ?

For many of you who DO advocate and endorse such a solution, how then ought it be carried out ? Apparently we're a very enlightened and civilized society. Therefore, what are the most humane methods available to a civilized society, in order to kill a human being ?

Hanging; electric chair; lethal injection; gas chamber; or something even more basic and economical, firing squad (Gary Gilmour, c.1980's Utah) ?

And what 'type' and gender of individual should be appointed to effect or perform such a punishment ? What amount of remuneration and benefits would be appropriate also, for such a onerous task ?

Is there ever a case to be mounted, for the NOK of the victim, to be permitted to carry out the punishment ?

Perhaps, even someone reading this humble thread, could be of a mind to lawfully execute another human being.

For those who are totally opposed to Capital Punishment in all it's forms, as I am, then what other penelty options does society have available to it ? A case for corporal punishment perhaps ? Singapore and Malaysia have it.

Consider for a moment, the enormous costs associated with keeping people like Martin Bryant or Julian Knight (Hoddle Street, Melbourne, who murdered seven innocent souls) in gaol for many years ? The yearly costs to the Taxpayer are astronomical, and climbing.

I read somewhere, a great sage once said, inter alia '...a civilized society can only be judged by the way it deals with it's wrongdoers...'. Easy to say, but is he/she correct ?

O sung wu,

This is not a new question, but you raise some interesting points.

My personal rule of thumb is that if I am not prepared to push the button or pull the trigger to rid the world of one more murderer, rapist or child molester, I should not expect anyone to do it on my behalf.

The suggestion of special financial recompense or benefits for anyone whose appointed task is to execute another person is, personally, abhorrent and is the first step down a slippery slope. If we brought back the death penalty for certain crimes in this country (which would never happen), then obviously there would be people appointed to carry out the task, and they would be paid for their ‘job’ just like anyone else. But to make the job ‘more attractive’ by offering a better salary, or extra benefits, is wrong. Perhaps the judge who passes the sentence, or the jury themselves, should be the ones to perform the execution.

Then there is the question of which crimes ‘fit the bill’. In the eyes of criminals themselves, the most heinous crime is that of child molestation. I find it interesting that even amongst the perpetrators, there is such a ‘code of conduct’.

I agree that the cost of incarcerating criminals is far more than any tax-funded government can afford. You also raise the issue of the perceived increase in crime. Is this because there are more people, and therefore more crime? Or is it because of a growing wave of dissatisfaction within our wonderful western society? The rich get richer, the poor remain poor, the ill can’t get the care they need’, the criminals don’t get the punishment they deserve. Is it any wonder crime is on the up?

It’s interesting that many people call for a reintroduction of the death penalty, yet abortion and euthanasia are a mortal sin. I can see no instance where the execution of a criminal should take precedence over the consensual ending of a life of suffering.

I oppose the death penalty for a number of reasons. Firstly it puts the innocent as well as guilty to the death. In January 2003, Illinois Governor George Ryan commuted the sentences of all the state’s death row prisoners on the grounds that the system was so flawed that it could not ensure that the innocent were spared. There is no doubt many people proven innocent later, have been executed. The death penalty will never deter violent crime. Again in the US where for western society you find the executioner at his busiest the following facts should be considered: If anything, credible evidence points clearly that the death penalty is no deterrent, in the US it points in the other direction. A study by Thorsten Sellin found that between 1989 and 2002, California (one execution), Texas (239 executions) and New York (no executions) all had almost identical patterns of murder rates from year to year-—though overall, Texas’ average was highest.
If you can afford the best legal representation, you won’t end up on death row. Simply put, the richer you are the better your chance of avoiding the death penalty. The death penalty does nothing for the victim, and even less for the family of the victim it will prolong the suffering of those close to the victim as they endure, often years, of legal battles over the penalty.
Juries can be hesitant to find a person guilty when they know the arbitrary penalty is death. There are lots more reasons to oppose the death penalty.

i just finnished my considerd reply in three posts
at your last topic

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5357&page=9

basicly said stop wasting money the wrong end
to the wrong people....get police to do their job[keep the peace//protecting life and property..[and yes even a night in the lockup or kick up the butt

but full right to complaint
i see police as there for me..to protect me from me as much as protect me from you etc..its cyclick..

think..you gave a ticket..the state got revenue..
but am i more safe now or less..better/worse?

we got one angry driver..with fines totaling more thatn the cost of the tire..[clearly a worn tire..suggests trouble with getting a new one..symptom

rededy:POLICE SHOULD ORDER THE NEW TIRE FITTED
there and then..or fit it..but the cost is the cost of the service!

not burden on top of burden..just so you got warrents any time your masters chose*

but stuff your two party patcy system
where a kid can get 3 moths jail!..for stealing two drinks

and a banker can get a bonus plus a bailout
for sending a money system broke..or a lawyer into govt..

police arnt paid to think
thery used to have a rule book..but now the only rule is do as your ORDERD..mind numb revenue raisers..

if the vehicle is unreg..the cop fixed..it there and then
there now maker payment or go to jail..@..JAIL TIME AT AVERAGE WAGES RATE*..

ONLY..if danger
the cop orders a new car
4/cost of simple intrest free repayment..

BUT*
we get burden upon burden
lawyers making law..cops too dumb or drunk to think

but my cure has allready been posted

in short give them away..with aid....so the scum does some balancing karmic good for a society if not this one by leaving..

cheers
johan

allmost over giving it all away from nix
but not quite..the glass is almost empty..the spirit evaporated*

was that little falla yelling the pain/da pain
..or the plane..is plain

i know how he felt..
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5357&page=9

To quote the 19th C French novelist and thinker, Emile Zola, " We teach that killing is a terrible crime. And how do we teach it? By killing."
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.a

OUG brings up some interesting issues and offers one possible solution.

It is not just the cost of ‘housing’ the perceived worst criminals that is at issue here – it is the cost of advocating court solutions for every misdemeanor, deserved or otherwise. So much money is wasted on nit-picking bureaucratic legal fights that the time, energy and money required to deal with the real criminal issues, and find and fund viable solutions, are no longer available.

OUG’s suggestion of packing all the real criminals (murderers, rapists, thieves, molesters and the like) to their own place and letting them sort it out themselves (a la the British sending their worst to Australia, or that silly futuristic 80s movie about the island of Manhattan being a criminal-run prison) is not totally without merit.

Of course, the world is now so over-populated there is literally nowhere to ‘send’ them, so it would necessitate having to establish a ‘country-within-a-country’, so to speak. Throw up a few 10 metre walls, give them basic infrastructure, allow them to farm, produce and trade (if they can); allow them to establish their own rules and regulations, currencies, etc and let them have at it. No guards within, little on-going and rising-cost burden to tax-payers (after initial hideous expense). Of course, for the condemned, there would be no right of return, no escape and no intervention. Harsh? Absolutely. Will it ever happen? Outside of the movies, unlikely.

In other words, there is no easy solution to this problem. Indeed, many would argue that there is no problem – crimes are committed, criminals are punished in the most humane way possible, and the world keeps turning.

Unfortunately, our civility is merely a veneer. It will not protect us against our baser instincts.

O sung wu,
Yeah, I support capital punishment for those who cimmit heinous crimes, like those of Mrs Morse, anitta Coby and the two young girls near the NSW/VIC border. Or the backpackers murders. Whats more I could easily pull the trigger. These have forfeited their right to be living in our society. Trump and Baker regularly apply for release, where death penalty ensures they will never do it again.

If John Howard can use the Port Arthur incident to wholesale remove guns from us, I see nothing wrong in using the next hienous crime to introduce death penality.

I have shot dogs for far less.

You do like to got a bit over the top don't you o sung? You first get willies mixed up with guns, now you tell anyone who may argue against you that they are vengeful & draconian. A great way to argue if you have a bias.

Personally I don't think punishment works by the time we get to serious crime. A few cuts with the headmasters cane, or who ever gives the cane in Malaysia may help, if applied early enough in life. I also have no belief in rehabilitation, just a way of employing a pile of useless "ologists".

Nope punishment & rehabilitation is not much use. The requirement is to get those capable of such crimes off the street, & out of decent peoples lives.

Obviously the cheapest way to do that is to top them. If you're too squeamish for that, find another cheep way, but make it as permanent.

How about life, meaning full life with no time off, in a POW type camp, in the middle of the Simpson desert.

No wardens, just guards on the outside, & let the crims run the place. Should save you finding someone to press the button as well, they would do it for us.

Now go for it all you bleeding hearts, I've got a couple of surf towels ready to mop up the blood, as it pours out of the computer.

http://www2.law.columbia.edu/instructionalservices/liebman/liebman/Liebman%20Study/!index.html
I would offer this link as a contribution to the debate.
Aside from my objection to the notion of killing as a way of stopping people from killing, I am profoundly concerned about the potential for error.
The Justice Project referred to in the link, investigates cases where serious doubt exists about the validity of many death row convictions.
The results will astound you. The error rate of conviction is huge.
Whilst I fully agree that our currrent system of justice is probably the best we can find, it's far, far from perfect. Just ask Lindy Chamberlain.
That imperfection in the system is, in my view, sufficient reason to not have the death penalty.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

O SUNG WO, I have started threads on this subject and given it much thought.
I knew, briefly a cop involved in the Morse Murder, it hurts him Peter, still.
It would hurt anyone if they could read the full story.
Know still, best mate, an ex prison warder.
No easy task, unless I take the path some others have, put up a just silly offer.
I believe the costs of imprisonment play a huge part in sentencing and early release.
Maybe too big a roll, an over riding one.
Such as out never to be released? Capital punishment.
We need to consider anew system, I put prison factory's true work on the table.
To pay the costs of imprisoning, to lift the conditions in prison.
And j8ust maybe see the prisoner not us pays, leaving the concerns about wrong early release on the side.

Hi Belly,
An interesting point you make, about cost influencing sentencing.
Some years ago, I ran a division of a US multinational, another of whose divisions managed prisons in the US.
The head of that division told us over dinner that his group paid campaign contributions to judges, (who are elected the US), to ensure that sentences are kept as high as possible, thus keeping the prison population high and maximising profit for the division.
So, here the cost pressure is keeping sentences low, whilst in the US, cost pressure is to keep the sentences high.
It's a funny old world, isn't it.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

many who oppose the death penalty are in favour of killing the unborn. Why? Because the right and convenience of the woman is more important than the baby. Hmm!

You guys realise you're advocation concentration camps for people who are, to use the German description "Asocial", that is to say once a person like Julian Knight or Brian Keith Jones has served the punitive part of their sentence they'd be sent for preventative detention at a more humane facility where theyd work and pay back their "debt" to society.

Hi there - SCRIBBLER & PAUL...

SCRIBBLER, you put forward some excellent points, inarguably correct. I'd suggest there'd be few amongst us who could push the button, or pull the trigger, in a cold, calculating way. A real tough ask I believe.

Your thoughts on a high security area somewhere out in the Simpson desert, for crims, run and governed by crims, is imaginative but beyond contemplation by any government I would think, though a splendid idea nevertheless !

Though, could you imagine for a moment, any 'Jelly Judge' having the ingenuity or imagination to send some (intractable) crook to such a place ?

And PAUL1405's most interesting comments and comparison from the United States, citing figures from; CA TX & NY where there's virtually no difference in homicide rates, even though Texas has executed 239 souls, as opposed to CA, one and NY, nil ! A well researched piece I reckon. So much for the Death Penalty being a deterrent eh ?

ONE UNDER GOD...You seem to have suffered much grievence, at the hands of authorities, and as a consequence, the police. The result being, you seem to harbour a great deal of enmity, and collectively, hold 'em all in considerable disdain, as a corollary of that perception of inequitable treatment. As I've said previously, I'm sorry for that hurt, OUG I really am.

o sung you..ahh lol..if only you knew
if only i was vexatious..wanted vengence..cause many have done me wrong..in so many ways..

but..my pain is nuthing..compared to their pain that judged me in haste...i compensate with kinder feelings..knowing many know..but only think to know..only god knows..

thing is life..is for a set term
[if you like we are spirits trapped in flesh...for as long as that flesh lives..*..after we die..that passion were ewere embodied..now is set free..NOW KNOWING ITS IMORTAL*

well..how that is fixed..in that realm..is how it will be fixed in these realms..if heaven/earth..ever are to 'meet'..

so we learn to accept..WE EACH GOT LIFE*
with no parol..til the day we die..ITS A PRISON*..here vwee are stuck on a ball of clay/mud water and stone..and here ewe serve out our life sentance*

dying is like getting parrold
killing evil just empowers them..spiritually..[just as we are what we eat..we are that we give our energy/attention..love to

and those loving booze will find booze
even after parrol..sorry death*

anyhow how heaven works is sort the wheat from the tares
the goats from the sheep..etc..so all thieves go to one place
a place where no one owns nuthin..

rapists all go to the ;place rapists go..an island so they can breed their own victims..or grow up

those we want dead we send to usa
get the picture..eg we could take any dark skinned arabs..cause we know their all terrorists[exiles from their own homeland..*

send them back to their homes
reunite families..kids do conscription service after school..and go home with the refugies returning home..[all service personal will have a kit..for travel..plus a govt credit card..much like backpacking ..except their bringing their mates back home

sorry say too much

but that fat miner is right..why pay more than two buck to mine dirt
or mind dirt

o sung wo me too.
But I am sure it is nothing new to you, and that you read between the lines as well as any one.
I saw your claim there are good and bad in any job, I agreed.
I have seen a cop putch a kid in public then kick him.
But have seen them risk their life for one.
Every job has its detractors try being a union official.
I can report about a third of the complaints I saw against them, union officials, had any merit.
OUG hope you understand in any problem self help is the best start, then?
People do care mate.

If one innocent is murdered by the state, the cost is too much, and there have been plenty, now that DNA is decipherable the cases are being revealed monthly.

The mad Norwegian received 21 years goal for murdering 70 odd young ones which is infuriating. Even for him death cannot be an option of law because of the one who may be innocent.

The punishment should be rigid surveillance and regimentation of their entire waking hours. Make them want to escape their pointless unchanging lives. Take everything from them, they work eat and sleep, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, without respite.

Hi there Banjo...

I totally respect your point of view, and your suggestion that you could lawfully execute an individual. Far be it for me to cast any disparagement on either your commitment or statement.

You're obviously from the bush, and as such, you're by necessity a pretty tough bunch. So I'm not in a position to say anything to the contrary. Other than to suggest, it would not be quite so easy, I believe ?

Ah, HASBEEN, my old mate...

Did you happen to read my thread, in toto ? If you did, you'd see not one scintilla of prejudice therein, in order that I might 'warp' it to my advantage as you've uncharitably inferred. And you do know it ol' friend !

However I share your comments on rehabilitation and reintegration back to normal society. In my time I've not seen much evidence of a successful return to normalcy for many.

Regrettably, a crim with extensive criminal antecendents has little or no chance of ever obtaining worthwhile work. His only avenue is back to crime, an environment in which he feels most comfortable and accepted. Unfortunately, this lamentable situation is partly the fault of both Govt's and the community as a whole.

Hi BELLY & ANTHONYVE...

As you've both quite correctly said, the cost of incarceration is prohibitive. What other option(s) do we have then ?

I think it was either BANJO or you BELLY, who mentioned two of the most vile creatures on God's earth...two individuals that I've had quite a lot of DIRECT knowlwdge of...CRUMP & BAKER.

I, and a couple of others, had the great misfortune, to receive a direction to 'PROTECT' these two killers, for a short time - protect 'em from bloody near everything and everybody ? A most horrid and abominable duty, indeed. Baker was by far the ring leader. Crump, who could neither read nor write, was just an acquiscent and submissive creep.

Neither should ever be interred in conscreated ground. There are very few crooks who can really push my buttons, by the mere mention of their names. Emmm ?

Just heard on the News that the Qld Attorney General, a mere kid himself, is having a go at dealing with the little craps who are already career criminals at age 12. Hats off to such a sensible move, addressing one of Labor's legacies.

sonofgloin,
I have to disagree with you, those who committ these hienous crimes are not human in my view. Most animals that kill usually only do so for their own survival, there are some exceptions. The ones that tortured and killed Mrs Morse, Annita Coby, the two girls on the NSW South coast and the backpackers at Belanglo are lower than the most vile creatures imaginable. In these cases there is no doubt and they should be disposed of for the cost of a bullet.

O sung wu,
I have had to put down animals that I cared about and loved. That is hard, but I do not envisage any problems shooting the likes of the creatures mentioned above. I have a pretty good idea what they did to their victims. I won't go into detail here, but you notice I used the word tortured.

Banjo,
the reason why there's so much cruelty is that those who are supposedly charged with fighting crime are the ones who cause it. Take a Policeman for example, if a home owner defends his property by shooting a violent intruder then, the Policeman who is supposed to defend the victim, will actually arrest the homeowner. That's why crime is on the increase.

Individual you have truly my sympathy and support.
As you are well aware I AT LEAST TWENTY TIMES, have stopped talking to you.
It has been every time, some statement so outrageous that it could not be ignored that bought me back.
In your post above I see a needless shot, carried over from another thread at o sung wo.
You take the verbal axe to police, knowing he was one.
Sir, you are ill equipped to enter verbal combat with any but a mute child.
EVERY ONE OF US knows Police enforce laws, in no way make them.
I know good and bad, very good very bad wear police uniforms.
But too without them, the better ones we are on our own.
I never found a way to without even meeting them, tell the good from the bad.
Leave you to it, will read you reply but yet again must retreat from such unfounded posts.

Ah, Belly, because Police don't make the Laws it makes it alright to arrest the victim ?

Indidual,
I add my voice in support of Belly's.
Police make no laws, they uphold those our elected representatives put in place.
Now, to the rest of your post.
To shoot an intruder simply for intruding, is a gross over use of force and it is entirely apprpriate that the homeowner be charged.
If however, the homeowner felt physically threatened, then he or she has the legal defence of self protection as a justification for shooting, and, depending on whether the court accepted the self defence argument, may walk away free.
It is also appropriate that the law work this way because the self defence argument has to be tested, in case the homeowner had, just as an example, set up and murdered a neighbour by inviting him in and then claiming that he or she threatened.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.a

Individual,

To echo Belly’s and Anthony’s arguments there is also the point that you cannot have one law for some and another law for others. Anthony has pointed out the hypocrisy of you claiming it should be okay to harm an intruder or ‘potential’ murderer and rapist. The case of self-defense, if proven, will work in your favour, if indeed you have harmed or killed the intruder IN self-defense. But what if, in the dark, the knife or gun you supposed the intruder was carrying, was nothing more than a stick or a torch? Your claim of self-defense would be null and void.

The reason this law is in place is to avoid situations like the above, where people presume to take the law into their own hands and practice vigilantism. Conversely, if the intruder is indeed carrying a gun and has no qualms about using it, yet you are armed only with a baseball bat, you are putting yourself at great risk – another reason why the law exists.

To claim that our inability to defend our property or loved ones is taken away from us by the law and this is leading to increased crime is untrue. In the US, for example, where just about every second person is toting some kind of weapon, robbery and intrusion onto private property with the intent to harm is not lessened by the knowledge that the owner of the property is armed and ready to shoot first.

Increased crime in our western society stems from the fact that we are living in an era of utter self-interest, where the rights of others are ignored. From the smallest acts, like continually playing loud music and annoying neighbours to hooning, stealing, raping or killing, it is all done with a total disregard for the sensibilities of those around us and with with whom we are forced to share our society, and a total disrespect for those who must uphold the law - the police.

Until we learn how to treat others with the respect we demand for ourselves, crime will never lessen.

individual,
Although I agree that the law on self defence needs reworking, this is not the thread for that. Post another thread and I will be happy to discuss same.

This thread is about punishment for hienous crimes.

It seems to me that those that oppose the death penalty cannot put forward any alternative that is suitable and makes economic sense.

Banjo,
Isn't this an issue of justice and what kind of society we want?
And so, isn't "economic sense" a second order priority?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

I believe the death penalty should only be carried out when the crime is proven BEYOND ANY POSSIBLE DOUBT. Beyond reasonable doubt is NOT good enough. Some years ago i rented my property out to a bloke who had been tried, convicted and sentenced to 20 years jail for killing his wife. Two years later it was proven that he had not committed this crime and the REAL culprit was put on trial after admitting to some one that he had done the dirty deed. If this bloke had been given the death sentence what a travesty of justice that would have been.

Banjo,

Economics, of course, is part of any consideration of law and its various applications. However, to dismiss the potential economic pitfalls of execution by thinking it a quick and easy solution, is a mistake.

Several have cited the enormous number of incorrect judgements upon people who are later found to be innocent of the crime. Add the costs of arresting, charging, holding, investigating, prosecuting, fighting appeals, passing judgement, incarcerating until execution date and finally, executing (with all the psychological assessments and reports that will go with it) to the costs of relaunching investigations, new findings, presenting of new evidence, and discovering that the wrong person has been executed to the final array of costs associated with suing the legal system and all its representatives by a distraught family and all the palaver that goes with that and you have one hell of an expensive solution.

It boils down to the simple fact that you will never please all of the people all of the time. There are those who are for capital punishment and those who oppose it. There are those who are for life sentencing, and those who oppose it. Then there are those who say that whatever we do is akin to putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound – that we should be addressing the cause of crime, rather than fighting over the best way to punish those who commit such crimes.

There are lots of ‘answers’ to the question of what punishment best fits the worst kinds of crimes. The problem is that none of them provide a blanket solution, as every case must be treated on its own evidence (merit).

Additionally, I don’t think the discussion on this thread need necessarily be restricted to heinous crimes. Crime against another person is a crime, regardless of its perceived severity. And if we think the system is wrong, then it is wrong in its entirety and we should address the criminals and the prosecution of them as a whole.

Antony and Scribler,
Economics is and has to be a consideration, especially as the costs of present incarseration is so high. Last I heard it was around $100,000 p/a.

what about instead of the present 'holiday resort' type prisons, we have some lower cost run jails and/or others where 'hard labour' means just that and the government recoups some of the costs by utilising the prisoners labour. That concept seems to have been killed off by the do gooders.

The aim should be to protect the community from the crims, especially from those that have committed hienous crimes.

0's quote..""Crump, who could neither read nor write,
was just an acquiscent and submissive creep.[""..

oh good one out of 3..for me
but this grasped my intrest more

""..Neither should ever be interred in conscreated ground.""

sadly..this isnt as important as trapping their souls in their bodies..[like mummification..but as for holy ground all ground of god is holy..its onlt that we put it to unholy purpose

like the vile use guns
the EVIL KILL*..those saying mkindlessly they can kill with impunity
aint never had to kill no man..a few tried to kill me..you shouldf see their faces..when im not dead..

so deluded
so predict-able .."""..There are very few crooks who can really push my buttons, by the mere mention of their names. Emmm ?""

yes lets put some demonic images into our minds
jack the ripper or most steven kings..or hitchcock..yes we love being scared"

lets use key words..names
the imagry..of death is so comforting

forget their names..it was just as likely demoic possesion
cause the drug industries drug us into meakness..demons love that

consecrated ground..lol
its all made from gods dust..[the more coarser matter..the finer things are reeserved for those who served the holy father sustain his creation

life
where god is..is life
ye shall call him emmanuel:..[god within us [all]

Hi there ONE UNDER GOD...

Sorry, I probably didn't express myself adequately, apropos '...push my buttons...' ! To look at Crump & Baker, they appear to be quite ordinary blokes. It's their crimes, particulay that which was perpetrated against Virginia MORSE, that's what pushed my buttons.

They were so lucky that it was police who got 'em, not the good menfolk or Moree.

The High Court of Oz. (the 'Viro' judgement, I think ?) has determined what constitutes 'Self Defence'.

In basic terms; 'where there is an IMMEDIATE threat to you, or another, suffering death, or serious injury at the hands of an assailant' (that threat must be real, not doubtful or remote) then lethal force is justified.

Further, it should also be noted; If you or another can make good your escape from that assailant, then you're NOT permitted to resort to lethal force.

That judgement not only applies to the private individual, but to the POLICE, in equal measure. Police can no longer shoot a fleeing felon, either. This is OZ, not the U.S of A !

There may however be an exemption pursuant to the Prison Act. Escape lawful custody ?

That old cliche,'...a man's home is his castle...' and if you catch some bloke in your home in the dead of night, you're entitled to shoot him, or hit him on the head with a vase, in order to defend your home and property - is dead wrong !

Kill someone while protecting your own property, you've got to be prepared to justify your actions in a court of law.

The coppers, sadly HAVE to arrest you IF you can't justify your actions, pursuant to that which the High Court has determined, in their earlier judgement. Again, this is Australia, not the United States of America.

I can tell you all quite unequivocally, any copper who 'clears leather' and shoots someone, unless extraordinary circumstances exist, his career is virtually over, even if the Coroner totally exonerates him. It's simply not worth it.
His mental health is scarred for the rest of his working life.

0's quote..""The coppers,..sadly HAVE to arrest you
IF you can't justify your actions,..pursuant to that which the High Court has determined,..in their earlier judgement""

\thats a complicated personalisation
it all sounds so personal..allmost like a threat.

but lets talk of what your trying to say..police..anyone cant just shoot anyone no more..and even coppers..[a better word than police but i prefer more like a marshal or texus ranger or a mountie..or a biobby/..or like the fed police or asio..all pretty cool guys

but..lets keep asking why..is it so
cause of common law..ie prior court rulings
they peers..got it wrong ..so all lower courts must follow its wrongness?

its [pervetrted..the rule is no injured pary..no lawfull permission to act..no warrent..no injury no crime..the rest is just revenue raising


"""..Again, this is Australia,
not the United States of America.

I can tell you all quite unequivocally,
any copper who 'clears leather' and shoots someone,
unless extraordinary circumstances exist, his career is virtually over, even if the Coroner totally exonerates him.

It's simply not worth it."""

yeah i know we saw what went down in thursday island
police= states issue..i feel they act more like mall security guards..or wanna be csi..

but yet look at the fallout rate..its huge..AUSE IN TIME YOU LEARN>>..your there to protect the big crims..not help the little guy get heard*

""His mental health is scarred for the rest of his working life""

yes we all seen burnout
but thats cause they see derunks driving away drunk after midnight
and them catching the ignorants..en mass next morning

the absurdity of high courts ruling a police dog the same as a torch is insane..thats what burns out good cops..not there LIKE OUR TROOPS..to protect drug lords drug crops

bravo serpico
its time those burnt out spoke up
stuff espri de gore

This thread is about punishment for hienous crimes.
Banjo,
Ok, but in my book heinous punishment is no different.

not sure if its funny or sad
but ya recall how the whitefella him bring in smallpox..on blankets banks 'left'..for the natives..[like they did to the aztec's..

you know genicide one oh one
how do we police that...like i just heard of this

KIWI's rejected..by whhite coloniser
its a tape..at this topic
http://public.worldfreemansociety.org/index.php/forum/23-new-zealand/108935-sick-babies-turned-away-because-they-were-not-registered-with-the-crown-shame-on-you-papakura-marae-nz

get involved...yeah right..got a quota to fill

TENTION ALL PARENTS!

WE ARE 2 YOUNG PARENTS VERY SCARED AS IM SURE YOU ALL WOULD BE IF YOU HAD LOST A CHILD...PAPAKURA MARAE ENDANGERED MY BABIES LIVES BY TURNING THEM AWAY...THIER BABIES FOR GODS SAKE!

OUR BABY OF 3 MONTHS OLD WAS TURNED AWAY FROM PAPAKURA MARAE MEDICAL CENTRE SIMPLY FOR NOT HAVING A BIRTH CERTIFICATE YET!...

THE SERVICE IS A MAORI SERVICE AND WE ARE MAORI THEREFORE WE EXPECTED A CERTAIN LEVEL OF EMPATHY AND CONCERN AS WE WERENT 100% SURE WHAT THE "RED DOTS" ON OUR 5 YEAR OLD WERE AND WE HAD GRAVE CONCERNS FOR OUR NEWBORN AS HE HASNT HAD ANY VACCINATIONS AS OF YET.

MY 5 YEAR OLD WAS UPSET AND DISTRESSED AND MY NEWBORN WAS IN DESPERATE NEED OF HIS EARLY CHILDHOOD VACCINATIONS!.

WE TURNED AWAY SIMPLY BECAUSE WE HAVENT HAD
A CHANCE TO REGISTER HIM (OUR BABY OF 3 MONTHS)

AND THIS BEING DUE TO HIS RECENT CHANGE OF ADDRESS FROM WHERE HE WAS BORN IN MASTERTON TO HERE IN PAPAKURA SOUTH AUCKLAND. THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE HAD SICK BABIES AND WE WERE TURNED AWAY!

IS THIS THE WAY PAPAKURA MARAE TREAT OUR PEOPLE? WE TOOK A CAMERA SO WATCH AS THE RECEPTIONIST CANT EVEN GIVE US A STRAIGHT ANSWER AS TO WHY WE NEEDED THE BIRTH CERT SO BAD!

HER ONLY REASON WAS AND I QUOTE "ITS BECAUSE WHEN THEY GO SUPERCLINIC FOR THE FIRST TIME, LIKE ITS AWEFUL BUT THATS JUST WHAT WE HAVE TO DO"...THAT EXPLAINS NOTHING!

WERE NOT AT SUPERCLINIC WERE AT PAPAKURA MARAE!...ITS DISHEARTENING TO RECEIVE THIS KIND OF SERVICE FROM OUR OWN PEOPLE AND ITS NOT THE FIRST TIME ..

continues

AS WE HAD NUMEROUS MEETINGS ETC WITH TE RAUKURA O TAINUI JUST LAST YEAR REGARDING MY 70 YEAR OLD MOTHER BEING TRESSPASSED AND PHYSICALLY REMOVED FROM CLENDON MEDICAL CENTRE WHILE SHE WAS HAVING A HEART ATTACK!

2 SEPERATE MAORI HEALTH CARE SERVICES AND 2 SEPERATE NIGHTMARES! IF WE ARENT GOING TO DO THE JOB PROPERLY THEN SHUT IT DOWN AND SEND THE DRS TO REAL PRACTISES WHERE THEY ACTUALLY CAN HELP SICK PEOPLE!

MY FAMILY IS APPAULED HURT AND FEEL VERY UPSET TOWARDS THE HEALTHCARE WE HAVE RECEIVED HERE IN AUCKLAND ESPECIALLY CLENDON MEDICAL CENTRE AND PAPAKURA MARAE!.

PLEASE HELP US SHOW THIS CLEAR DISREGARD FOR MY BABIES HEALTH BY SHARING THE VIDEO ETC, WHAT IF THE RED DOTS WERE MENINGITIS AND WE GOT TURNED AWAY?

IM SCARED TO THINK OF WHAT COULDVE HAPPENED AS WEVE ALLREADY LOST OUR ELDEST DAUGHTER TO MEDICAL MALPRACTISE IN MY HOME AREA OF TOKOMARU BAY EAST COAST (TE PUIA HOSPITAL)...

ONE UNDER GOD...

I'm not sure that mere words alone are adequate enough to express my personal abhorrence at the way both your Mum and your childeren were seemingly treated. At the hands of some bureaucratic staff of a Medical facility which, apparently was established for the primary use of NZ's indigenous folk ?

While most admin. staff try to do their best and perform their function(s) and duties in an appropriate and acceptable manner, there are always a few who don't. Just like there's some very bad and uncaring coppers O U G, we just have to put up with 'em, until the system finally gets rid of them. And they do, ultimately.

I guess Graham & his 'heavies', together with the Moderator's herein, may well jump up and down on me (as the originator), for failing to adhere to the Topic at hand.

Therefore, I was wondering, if you'd have a mind to raise such a subject on something like, 'Health Services and the Bureaucracy' or a similar topic, dealing with the same issues as you've enunciated above ?

That then may give you a specific 'forum' in which to expand upon this awful experience you've evidently suffered at that particular health centre.

Good luck ONE UNDER GOD.

oh well silence signifies concent

there /here is a posting saying the only way to beat criminals..is stings..but thats silly entrapment..then they still got the gun lawyers judges prisons and marfia

but heck if you really cared you would talk
this is the karms....i posted this thread at that forum

but no takers came...lol

http://public.worldfreemansociety.org/index.php/forum/43-general-discussion/107856-stinging-the-corrupt

anyhow i reason...'other watchers'..saw it on that forum..and talked to our openminded cop..thats sad..but in the end wewre on nthe same side*

posts crossed..but noted your last post..that several mis conceptions have emmerged..not my post not my vidio..but more importantly..it was seeing if it deserved reply..or deletion..

see i know police follow orders..have quotas
COULDNT FOLLOW UP..on anything in the vidio..even if you had actionable cause to act..cause your just 'drug squad/or highway..or dfc bmf bfh..and cant act outside that you are licenced to deal with..revenue raising..

govts are corperations..who have no life of their own..much like family trusts..your 'author'-ity
..comes via a warrent to act,..serving hrh/..her hairs and suckceasers
[just like i had to..to serve in armed forces..she is trustee of the trust..[the common wealth..not australia..there is yet another lie

the dutch named these lands van die mens land
[of the peoples land...to wit not terror nullius..lies upon lies

the frunny corpse..there is the root of the force
ya get them faux unionist waving the eurika flag about..but here we got bothy on the same side..not even talking about south afrikan unionists shot by cops

yeah it wont happen here
when do you retire?..what about after?

UOG,
I'm not sure about others but I simply can not make any sense of your style of writing. Any chance of a little more normal english ?
Thank you

Anthonyve,
Your argument that simply shooting an intruder is not justified. Yes of course, but if that intruder lunges at you or a member of family ?
What would you do ?
As for setting up a neighbour well, what safeguards does a decent individual have for not getting set up by a neighbour?
the gist of my argument is that Police instead of judging/weighing up as to who is in the wrong, simply enforce the Law. They do not arrest the intruder, they arrest the homeowner who was defending himself. My neighbour had a huge rock thrown through his window, missing him by mere centimetres sitting in his chair. You know what the Cop (not a Policeman) said ? "Well if you didn't have the rock in your garden bed the intruder couldn't have thrown it through your window".
What, Anthony do you say to something like that which by the way is not an isolated incident. ?
I think there's something wrong with the Cop & with the Law. What do you all think ?

Hi INDIVIDUAL...

I don't know all the facts about the 'large rock' throwing incident, but prima facie, if the copper had stated what you have quoted him/her saying, well I'm jolly glad I'm retired !

What a stupid remark allegedly uttered by this Police Officer ! I'll admit, there are justified complaints about coppers numbered in the legions. Police are human too, with all that emplies ? While I've been in the job, I've heard and witnessed some of the most farcical and ridiculous things ever said, even by ranking coppers who should know better.

I sometimes dispair, at the type of person they're recruiting into the job, I really do. The two most vital ingredients a good copper MUST possess, above everything else, including academic abilities...(a) He/she must be able to talk to people in a polite and reasonable way; and (b) Must have 'bucket loads' of common sense.

If they possess these two very basic qualities, or skills/abilities or whatever traits you may wish to call them, then they've won half the battle, in my opinion.

im weritting this to you yet again
i was just finnishing..when the page moved
https://www.google.com/search?q=degrees+in+freemasonry&hl=en&pwst=1&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Xbm6T8ufDYqhiAesh5HqCA&ved=0CJMBELAE&biw=1280&bih=671

but i dont care..it needs saying./.YOU SWORE to serve protect hrh
hrh=us the people..your helpless policing policy..not them poluting HRH estates and peoples..MAKING THEM SICK..killing them in old peoples homes

so much more i just said
but it was taken down as i wrote it

your serving the beast..HOW DO POLICE GET juristiction to act?

via a lie..warrent..constituting a person hood
that is served by a trust..to wit THE great south land/van die mens*AUSTRALIA..[inc]..

yes australia is a corperation..with its servants..[called public..yet in reality to control''the public'..make them docile..placid..then extract punitive money from them

the bewnnificiaries of the trust are being abused by the trustees

but you get your power to act via acts..MUST BE RATIFIED by hrh
NONE EVER HAS*

via constitution..r\atified by 35,000 land owners[owning plunderd lands..thus that obtained by tainrted means..never gets pure title

the law OF THIS LAND..preCEEDANT law rules..is
your hand is a part of your body..just like you are a part of the land

the land belongs to the father
for the mother to mother life from the light..via logic

that life live love logicly
did you read my other post

if its broke a cop CAN FIX IT
but often only makes things FAR WORSE
http://public.worldfreemansociety.org/index.php/forum/45-i-need-urgent-help/108754-i-am-in-urgent-need-of-help-please

0 song a new egsample..has arisen
via the door knockers brigade/witness*

so here is what the witness and i talked about
a cop car cruising by my home..8 times allreadsy[it seems there was many 'breaking into cars'..just in our street

so the boys saw me talking to the dude
i had to stop myself from stoopping them..to tell them..[so maybe you can..tell them

this street has 5 entry points/3 lane ways..
to find the criminal.s follow the path's

not show 'police presnce'..by driving past in cars
their expecting,...what?

just following order
GET OUT THE VEHICLE
WALK THE BEAT..talk to people..

geeez..just maybe someone wants them busy*
i could tell them of real crime..[statuted policy policing/revenue raising..limited juristiction..too many divisions..when it just takes a cop that walks a beat

HELPING people
keping their cars safe

their children safe
by getting out of the vehicle..going walk about..
not the pub..with the gore core..doing the chore for the man..the bore

the people..lol
let them get a lawyer

G'day, ONE UNDER GOOD...

Coppers walking the beat, was a very useful practice, until 'The Beat' just got far too big ! Lack of manpower, and many other considerations made 'Beat Policing' almost prohibitive, sadly.

I reckon this particular 'Thread' has now exhausted all, or any further use as a topic.

Thus, I'll catch you next time O U G. And you take good care of yourself too ol' boy, OK ?

yep..*be seeing ya..[i was going to say flat-foot..but..
your finished..but*..im not quite

its fine..go..im speaking generally
so thanks..have a nice life

thanks for the topic..oppertuinity to clarify

im just noting..you call time on/it twice..yet still came back
..not really refuting anything..or changing much

but.."visable policing"*..is needed

more urgently
is for the pm..who loves education supposedly..
to legislate away all them great crime/ideas movies/the media is criminal..thery love of cop shows..used that space
for teaching kids murder..and mayhem..crime/attitude

a true pm..would get rid of that murder/mayhem tradedy
and get into..*real learning..for important*..things/issues
the things of life..not death vile/murder come mystory

see all that rubbish on tv..
makes much of the mess..your lot.. need clean up..

you havnt mentioned..how 3/4 of your work is booze related!..

an important ommision..possable the main cause on fixating on kids with joints with dogs..doing RANDOM SEARCHE's..drug testing at random..abuse of powers/high ratio return..

think millions of drunks..got home safely
yes a few didnt..but thats what we got cops for!

yes in odd hours..yes
its not 9 to 5..but.to most of you..curreently..it is

criminal=24/7..that car breakin lot..been doing it all around town
its only one gang..but police so busy being 'the presence'post de facto....not the real time presence/protector..

i would have been disillusioned
thus glad..your lot rejected me..declared a drug war..on me
them lies/made me the man..that i am...plus prison is a great retirment plan*

anyhow..your lot aint telling juliar
take the training how to be crim/stuff on free to air tv
put educional stuff on..you know the good stuff/that dont coach crims..

civilise not criminalise

that said..i seen many good flatfeet
but too many..'defaulter's in prison..who's fault would that be?

the rum/core that polices policy..raises revenue
from before the eurika stockaide..armed police/shot miners/there too

everytime i see a copp with a gun/i know..im in a police state
now dressed in black..to suit the god of war..lol

police cant solve crimes..they set them up
to suit the closest fit..must meet quota*

that police hide/info..in trial..its itself criminal
that neither the court..nor the police hold custody..of fresh discovery proof..its treason..absolute power corrupts absolutly..but im over it