Two more mass shootings and no chance of change.
Is America the only western country that see Gunsbought as easly as a coke.
What is it about this world leader that sees gun ownership as a near must.
Why not in Britain? France? Australia, oh we catch up but at least the guns are not legally owned.
Is it left overs for the movies remaking of western history.
Is it wise, maybe it harks back to the minute men.
We are told it is for defense, if no one had them defense from what?
Invasion, given the nature of friendly fire deaths involving trained Militarily personnel I fear it will not work.
Have we any right to care.
I think yes, for the victims and for the country we say is our best hope for freedom.

From my viewpoint it is very hard for a good person to obtain a firearm & apparently quite easy for a deviate to obtain one here in Australia. Just as it is nigh impossible for a genuine immigrant to come here via going through official channels vs someone arriving here illegally.
What we need to do first up is to take a good look at ourselves & what we do to other people that makes them go off the rails. If we want people to have no hang-ups we must stop the useless & discriminatory within authority from getting into the positions from where they direct so much harm. As long as we pussy-foot with low life & persecute the victims we are the ones putting crazy ideas into peoples' heads. You just gotta look at the insane rubbish our media & entertainment industries dish out. It's a miracle we actually have such a low rate of people going off the rails. In the majority of cases the perpetrators have been conditioned by discrimination within our society. We pussy-foot instead of nipping a problem individual in the butt & when something bad happens we are at a loss why they did it. Look at yourself & think about the way you think. You might find you're not as clued up as you think you are. You can't expect a decent society when you have no culture of decency.

I can not see gun owner ship as a measure of freedom.
And I fail to find reason to defend the deaths.
Almost always inocent and unarmed folk butchered in the street, shopping centers or work places, schools too bring high death toll
Republicans seem to be propping up gun culture.
Yet in Australia it was a Liberal/conservative leader who tightened up the laws.
John Howard, currently in America attending the republic convention, and other tasks, very definitely did the right thing.

No citizen anywhere needs an assault rifle. As long as they have the mindset that there's a boogey-man around every corner and they have the right to shoot him then nothing will change.

They carry on about their second amendment and the supposed rights they have with it. What they choose to ignore in that amendment is the references to restrictions on ownership and that that right is for a militia. These days 'militia' means 'reserves'. Reserves, being the supplement army.

The argument is really so they get to keep their shiny toys. Nothing more. As long as that carries on many more will die.

I enjoy hunting. Actually, being away in the bush is where I feel most at home, but what I don't need to do that is artillery.

they have the mindset that there's a boogey-man around every corner ..
StG,
The problem is they're right about bogey-men. They're in the shape of bureaucrats in authority.
I totally agree that in order to go hunting or target shooting assault rifles are way out of order. just look at it this way. If assault rifles weren't made for sale they wouldn't be available. So, who's fault is it that they are available ?
I recall copping a lot of flak from some Australians when I argued the exact points above. They reckon it was their right to have whatever they want. it is my view that they don't have a right to that mentality for a start.
guns are just like any other device. Many more people get killed on our roads or in planes & boats. People die that's all there's to it. The tragedy is when people die due to somebody else. Look at those mongrels the other day who told the neighbors of a pensioner that she'd died & they're cleaning out her house. They brazenly stole. Now, had anyone shot these mongrels the person with the gun would be branded a murderer. That's the sort of injustice that causes people to lose it. I frankly can't blame them. My work mate has been targetted with break-ins up to 4 times/days in a row yet the little $hits are still walking around even after breaking in & stealing from several other homes. If someone gets sick of this one day & knocks them on the head then they get locked away.
Give us back the right of defending what's ours & you'll see a decline in crime. The present judicial system in Australia is actually fostering crime. Stop the do-gooders from having a say.

I've got no issue with self defence. Come in here meaning harm and I'll drop you. I don't care about jail. It'll be worth it saving my, and my family's lives.

The topic is America, though.

The problem isn't exclusively gun control. Making it harder for whack jobs to kill many people is the first step. Ban private ownership of assault rifles. Also, ban the carrying of side arms. Some argue with that theatre shooting if people were armed they could've stopped the killing early. Sure, maybe, but could you imagine a dark theatre full of armed scared people. How do I know if the gunman has associates or not? Which people do I shoot? There would be 3x as many fatalities. Have your home defence, but no one needs a gun in public other than if it's for your job.

The issue is mental health and alienation of the offenders pre-shootings. What's makes someone hate people so much they need to kill them. There's social issues at play here that go WAY deeper than the States can possibly get a hold of. It's too late for them, unless a party steps up and goes through the gun control issue with a scythe.

I can't imagine anything more stupid than to disarm the honest citizenry, but then not do the job of disarming the criminals.

I can only hope that the idiots who voted for & support this rubbish are the ones to suffer the obvious result.

I carried a 22 when rabbiting from about 12 years old. We ate many rabbit stews provided by that rifle.

Our school cadets took their army issue rifles home on Thursday afternoons, when we were having a shoot at the range on Saturday. No one turned a hair at over 100 school boys walking, riding or bussing home, with a 303 over their shoulder. Perhaps we were a more mature society in the 50s, than this one we have today.

Like many hundreds of others, at 16 I was taking charge of a platoon of 30 school boy cadets, on the range, on a regular basis.

The only gun injuries ever in our district were accidents, with people with insufficient gun training/experience.

God help us if we ever have another real war, there will be no gun competent quickly formed Militia, like the one that saved our ass in New Guinea during the last one. You should know better Belly.

I am early 50's and when I was 17-30's I could walk in to any gun dealer, buy a gun, buy bullets, load it, carry it to my car and carry it around loaded.

I remember returning from a rabbit hunting trip, went to work for the next six days, while at the whole time had a 22 and a 222, both loaded, hanging on my rear windscreen.

Guns were also a talking piece, so many of us would have them in the car when out in the town, or at the drive in.

Very very few people got shot here in Auss during these years.

Please tell me why, when we now have very strict gun laws, that there are more shootings here in Auss now, than there were before the modern day gun laws were forced upon us.

For the record, I am a responsible gun owner/ user and have no problem with common sense gun control. , and I am also appalled with what is happening in the US, but it has nothing to do with us and if our gun control laws have not worked here, why should such laws work in the likes of the US.

StG,
Yes the topic is about America. Why is it that America has that dubious title re guns ? India & China have loads more people with loads more poverty yet their crime rate doesn't seem to be as high as in countries with supposedly better living standards ? do better living standards foster more violence & discontent ? Is it because the Asians are tougher on violence than Westerners ?
What is the percentage of weapons used in american shootings ? Are they american gun or are they imported ? How do weapons & ammunition get marketed in America ? If self defence is one of the reasons guns are easier to get than what controls the various calibre ?
Is multiculturalism be a major/minor fact in the high volume of guns there ?
Do offenders simply let their frustrations with bureaucracy out on innocent people because the bureaucrats are so well protected ? I don't have answers for any of these questions but I do know that here in Australia the selfish mentality is a serious problem & it is even worse when guns get involved.

St G I truly, have tried to find something to agree within every post, yours is the only one.
I was a sporting shooter.
Have nothing against shooting.
Do all of us understand this is about America?
Do we all know the guns involved in Australia are not legal, and that, almost every drive by shooting is from people not born here.
And every act is criminal.
Back to the thread, individuals words truly honestly frighten me.
They could well have come from the mouth of several mass murderers.
Any one think we should or would even consider murdering our officials or politicians?
AMERICA, not us, sells youths machine guns type weapons.
Them not us have gun culture, no country I know in the western world has that.
Weapons control, such as we have, stops no sporting shooter.
However we see less road signs shot up and dead livestock in paddocks

Any one think we should or would even consider murdering our officials or politicians?
Belly,
that remark is totally & utterly out of order. if you read carefully this was a list of questions which could possibly be reasons for why there are so many problems in America.
I'm fully aware that these questions weren't filtered through rose-coloured glasses but hey, neither is ugly reality.

rehctub,

Regarding shootings in Australia.
Most incidents these days appear to take place between certain gangs who obviously procure firearms through illegal means. The difference between ourselves and the US is that US shootings - although they take place daily between ordinary members of the public simply because they have unfettered access to guns - is that mass shootings of innocent victims unknown to the perpetrator are more likely when access to firearms is easy. It seems that every second week we hear of mass shootings in the US, and like Port Arthur and Dunblane, all it takes is one nutter who wishes to do the deed.

I agree with you poirot. We never want to emulate the crazy gun laws in America.
I would like to see gun shooting removed from the Olympics and the banning of gun 'clubs' too.

The "hunt -em -down and shoot-em-up" good ol boys mentality is surely a bit old-fashioned now.

Guns are only needed by farmers, law enforcement agencies , and military groups.
Any one else using them should be against the law...

Individual, on multiculturalism being a cause of violence, it is and it isn't.
The U.S.A is an empire, like Rome it's isolated outposts are often violent places, much of Detroit is now just on the frontier of America , so are Bankstown and Brixton, the low element of those communities is partially civilised, partly barbarian savage.
You need a gun to protect yourself from robbery, rape and death in a lot of the outlying parts of the U.S empire, Melbourne's Haddara "Gangstas" need guns to protect themselves from the Chaouk "Gangstas", Brixton's Jamaican "Gangstas" need guns to protect themselves from the local Somali and Pakistani "Gangstas"...and so on.
With regard to the recent high profile attacks, it seems that the most recent two were murder suicides by otherwise "sane" men both of whom were desensitised and trained to kill by the U.S Army, Jared Loughner and James Holmes are both seemingly mentally ill so their illness has to be taken the primary cause of their actions.
I'd respond to your post with "Yes, all of the above", the American empire's problem with violence is at once a racial, economic, political, philosophical and emotional problem.

Anyone who thinks taking guns of honest citizens, & not the criminals is a good idea, must be soft in the head, or live, in a nice leafy green suburb of a nicely policed area.

The nutters will never have any problem acquiring guns, to think they will is living in another fools paradise.

Neither will otherwise honest citizens, who feel they need one, due to living in areas where about the only policing is speed cameras on the main road some kilometers away.

Pity, I have a couple of friends who are now criminals, as they will not go through the pantomime of belonging to a gun club, but will not leave their families unprotected.

in individual the point is America uses guns like lolly's.
Hasbeen it is not wise to generalize, to say every one who thinks different than you is soft in the head is madness.
Should war break out, at any age, I will serve my country, find a gun weapon and give my best.
This bush born bloke never flaunted a gun, no chance mine would be loaded in Transite or on display, unless to fellow shooters.
America is the subject, and its availability of k47 type weapons.
I doubt it is different than us, gun ownership often saw big reductions in roadside signs live stock by the road and water tanks.
At least some protection against dropkicks getting a gun exists here.
Per head of population America kills more unarmed and innocent bystanders than any other western country.
Do we think the very opposite to our laws is better?
Should house wives carry weapons of death in the hand bag.
How would we feel about being witness to mass murder down at our local shopping center?

The right to bear arms is enshrined in the US Constitution.
And the general feeling there is, "Gun control is victim
disarmament!"

And this isn't about to change any time soon.

The killings will go on and it will take something
spectacular and tragic for any US President to have
the balls to make any changes because politically
it would not be a popular move. They can always argue
away the reasons for the violence (nutt jobs, or the
very varied and strong racial and cultural mix that exists
in the US, and so on). Many Americans look upon gun control
as a loss of freedom.

It will take decades before this changes.

Over 30,000 gun deaths a year (not to mention the many thousands more who are merely wounded and survive)....

....in the land of hope and freedom.

Seems a tad dysfunctional to me.

Removing guns from society does not stop crime.In Sydney we've had daily driveby shootings.The criminals and lunatics will always get them.Anyone with access to a lathe and knowledege of tool making can make any gun they want but it is far cheaper to buy them over the internet or an illegal dealer.

More people in the USA die from car accidents than guns.Do we then ban cars? If the Jews were armed in Hitler's reign would they have gone so willingly into the gas chambers? History tells us that we cannot trust our Govts and the USA has 200 million guns in private hands.There are 800 FEMA camps in the USA supposedly for illegal immigrants but no one is in them,even though they are now manned.They are set up in a classic Hitler style with trains and helicopter servicing them with barbed/razor wire and even turnstiles for processing people.The new laws in the USA now allow the Military to detain anyone indefinitely without reason or have access to legal rights.Bradley Manning is held under these laws for being a whistle blower.They will do the same to Assange if they get him.

Glen Beck tried to debunk them but couldn't and in one day,cancelled his show on them doing another backflip.Just google Glen Beck and FEMA camps and you too might think about being armed.

How many mass shootings have we had of innocent bystanders in Australia lately, Arjay?

Regarding cars: that's kinda lame to compare the two. Cars are designed to transport people. Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast that a capsule moving at speed controlled by a human will occasionally come to grief.

Guns are designed to maim and kill - not other use or reason for a gun.

If there were 260 million Australians our figures would be bad on par with the USA.
As for guns killing people ? You'll find that it is the explosive powder behind the bullet.

Suse,

How would you tackle pest control given that you've just taken away our ability to control it?

Poirot, yes, but the fact remains, cars cause more deaths here than guns.

Another issue we will have is in a generation or two, it would be fair to assume that very few would even know how to use a gun.

Now while many may say, I will grab a gun and defend myself, a weapon in inexperienced hands can become an easy weapon for the enemy.

As I say, why is it more gun attacks happen here now, than did prior to the intro of gun laws.

The laws have simply disarmed law abiding citizens and offered a level of protection to crimes, as they know most people don't have a gun, at the ready, in their homes.

I am no gun nut, but I have no problems with people owning them.

Better to train people in safe use, than to all but disarm an entire country.

individual,

There are over 314 million Americans, and our "figures" would only be on a par with them if we had unfettered access to guns and a psych that permits such paranoid behaviour as a favourable state of affairs. There is also the situation where people become accustomed to such barbarity unfolding in society on a daily basis.

It becomes the accepted norm - as it has in America

They say 6% of our pop are psychopaths ie they egocentric,compulsive disorder freaks who have little empathy for other humans.Hitler was not an aberation.There are many in power in both our Govts and Corps.They also have their fingers on the nukes.In the West they have developed these mini-nukes which they think will give them the upper hand in a fight against Russia/China.

Forget about small weapons in the hands of ordinary citizens.The really big danger is in our own Govts and the Corporations who control them.They think the world is too over populated and it is up to them to bring in their New World Order and control everyone and everything.See Agenda 21 and the Project for a New American Century.

http://globalresearch.ca/

I think if you ban guns you should ban smoking, ban alcohol, ban baseball bats, ban boxing, ban violent computer games, ban violent movies, ban money, ban sex, ban knives, ban prescription drugs, ban cars and the list goes on.

It is not in the item that the crime is committed but it the misuse.

Teach people correct standards to live by.
Take away temptations, excuses or reasons for such behaviour (eg video games)
Properly punish and help change those who break the law.

A law is the last bastion of defence in society to protect from wrongdoing. It is the keep in the middle of the castle, behind the moat, wall, defenders, archers and oil. It is the thing that, if all else were to fail we would hope that it would survive. But the reality is, if the rest is overcome, the keep will eventually fall with time. We need to start again to teach people what is right, and how we should live properly rather than rely on laws or government or even schools to do it.

Seems to me that a return to true Christian values in the family and in the personal life would do more to prevent gun crime than another law.

I am both surprised and baffled by the thought gun ownership,even for some in Australia equals freedom.
And that, in anyway, this thread is about our country.
So let me turn it on its head, arjay warns of nuts among us, no defense.
What if you stood this morning in your local coffee out let waiting, knowing 2 in three waiting with you had a gun in their pocket.
How would you react to the radio telling you a mass shooting was taking place at your child's school.
Why do suburban living folk need a gun.
How can anyone take our new poster serious when he/she tells us that gun ownership is no different than that list.
What freedom for the dead by gun.
Explain to me why America needs guns in these numbers but no other western country does.

The lack of Law protection for our citizen is a qualifying factor to own a gun.

Belly, never in the past 50 plus years has an Australian been allowed to walk in to a coffee shop with a hand gun in their bag.

Poirot
Please explain to me why gun related deaths (intentional) have increased here since the introduction of gun control laws?

You lot make out that by having the right to own a gun, means we will all go out and declare open season on anyone we dislike.

It's just plain nonsense, it didn't happen before gun laws and in fact, most gun owners are very responsible operators.

Let's face it, nutters are nutters and, if we brought back capital punishment for the serious offenders, they may well think twice before going on that rampage.

All they do now, if they are convicted, is go off to gaol, with other nutters, proud of their new trophy.

rehctub,

We are discussing here American gun culture.

You do realise that American hospitals are filled daily with people who have been shot. As I said, over 30,000 "deaths" a year - and many many thousands more hospitalised because of wouding. Not to mention the almost weekly mass shootings by ordinary Americans of other ordinary Americans.

It happens all the time because guns (as you know) are very dangerous tools. They can kill and maim at a distance. They need to be treated with respect (as you know) and, therefore, in my opinion, should only be accessed under very tight controls.

Do you have a problem with that?

*You lot make out that by having the right to own a gun, means we will all go out and declare open season on anyone we dislike.*

Nope rehctub, its actually all about humans being emotional creatures.
Let's say Rehctub goes home during the day for some reason and finds
the wife shagging the pool boy. Anger turns to rage, he grabs the
gun and shoots him or the wife. Its easy, its convenient.

When he cools down, Rehctub realises the mistake, but its too late,
they lock him up. He never had done a course in anger management.

That is exactly why so many people get shot in America. So if
all those guns arn't around, less people will get shot.

Poirot, tight controls, no, banning or making ownership near on impossible, yes.

And yes, it is America, and I accept that.

Yabby, you're kidding!!

rehctub,

You're kidding.

The principal reason that so much gun trauma occurs in a country like America is precisely for the reasons that Yabby expounds.

Easy access to a tool such as a gun means that people acting irrationally or emotionally have an incredibly increased chance of picking up that gun and killing or maiming the object of their anger.

If you can point to another reason why the general public in the US is so threatened by the ease of access to firearms, I'd be interested to know what it is.

Poirot, yes you have me on that one, I forgot it was about America, my bad. Sorry about that Yabby.

Sorry, it's a bit OT, but I couldn't let this pass without comment, Jay Of Melbourne.

>>...Bankstown and Brixton, the low element of those communities is partially civilised, partly barbarian savage... Brixton's Jamaican "Gangstas" need guns to protect themselves from the local Somali and Pakistani "Gangstas"...and so on."

I can't speak for Bankstown, but I do know for a fact that your depiction of Brixton is way out of date. In a few short years it has reinvented itself, and there isn't a "gangsta" in sight.

http://www.timeout.com/london/feature/1543/brixton-village-market-restaurants-and-cafes-guide

In a recent article on the Olympic torch passing through Brixton, the novelist Tibor Fischer commented:

"When I jogged around Brockwell Park in the late '80s, it was me, several mentally ill individuals on benches and a couple of black boxers in bin liners, sweating it off for a weigh-in. Now the place is jammed with 20-something white couples trotting around in their UBS and Deloitte T-shirts. I can't make up my mind which is worse."

Who knows, if only they could track down a decent barista or two, Bankstown might make the same transition.

Good work Pericles. It's been a while but I used to walk around in the wee hours of the morning off my face and never came to any grief in Brixton.

The power of the yuppie and gentrification is wonderful. All around the world the power of real estate prices is moving the pikeys out to the wild west, like Macquarie Fields. It keeps our cities safe!

I like the Herald's real estate sections; Domain North, Domain East, and Domain 'Inner' West. The South and West of course is not where any of the readership would ever contemplate living!

Rechtub! Butcher are you aware of your increasingly bad habit?
In a post above you take me to task for?
Saying what it is like in America,oh you say sorry.
To two others.
Have you noted my absence from many of your threads?
See you lash out too much, but at others now.
You are no better than any to comment.
This thread is about America, yabby has got it word perfect.
Instant anger, some thing we can never take back, can lead to killing even the one we love most, if the gun is at hand.
No one ever used guns more than me, for a while my life was built around sporting shooting.
Ferrel cats foxes, first Ducks for me, the odd Roo for my dogs.
Never apart from ferrels shot some thing I did not need.
And often never fired a shot on full weekend hunting.
It was my strict rules on safety, shared by my insistence by my shooting mates that saw me put my guns away.
A mate who knew far better shot his wife in a panic on seeing a snake.
She survived they lived and loved for 25 years before implications killed her.
America gun culture is the subject, given a chance to vote on importing it here it would be opposed massively we do not want it.

Is it wrong to point out as I did with rechtub the nature of a post?
If so forgive me, but of late I have concerns about a few, growing but few, who write such posts then insult others for thinking differently.
That has taken place twice in this thread.
Very much aware at present of trolls in another form of media being very much worse than we ever saw here.
And hold no grudge against rechtub, just want him to be his own critic, as I think I am hence my diverting the thread.
I believe a day will come that sees an elected President of the USA, in his second term, tighten gun control.
Unfortunately that could lead to his murder while in office.
Another measure of Americans gun culture.

There is a valid reason that the American constitution allows the bearing of arms. Suppression of a population by force is not new and it is an option to governments right now.

So I have no issue with that aspect. In Australia they took our guns away and we have seen an ethnic group turn drive by shootings into a morning news item each and every day of the week, guns for the crims and victim status for the rest of us, I live in Sydney.

Long arms are fine but hand guns should be banned. But we should have the right to a long arm without registration or license.

Guns are fine, people are dangerous.

Just for some perspective on death in the US:
In 1960 the US had 179 million residents and 9110 murders.
In 2010 the US had 308 million residents and 14,748 murders.
The population grew by 70% and the murder rate increased by 60%. The society is statistically less murderous than 50 years ago.

sononfgloin,

"Guns are fine, people are dangerous."

Well that comment always appears to me as stupid. Guns are a tool that people use, and one that fires a lethal or maiming projectile at speed and distance with the mere click of a trigger.

Time to reprise this article.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,152220,00.html

"...less murderous...." - perhaps statistically, but it still seems fairly murderous to me.

Just thinking, sonofgloin, that I'd like to compare the statistics now and then for "people shot" in the US.

I'm presuming their hospitals and trauma units are now more adept at saving lives from gunshot injury.

Dear Poirot, about the survival rate now, it is certainly valid, mine are raw numbers and need interpretation and depth. But use the same macro thinking on my “people are dangerous” comment. Just as you can brutalize a dog, so you can a human. My comment cuts to the core, if society did not embrace violence as entertainment in every technological form the dogs would not be so quick to bite.

We have brutalized those susceptible ones in the X and Y generations with playstations and X boxes where the winner is the one who kills the most

I can't argue with that, sonofgloin.

Civilisation is more than cities and technology - it's a state of mind. One that seems to be slowly disintegrating in the American psyche.

*We have brutalized those susceptible ones in the X and Y generations with playstations and X boxes where the winner is the one who kills the most*

Sheesh, no wonder I am non violent by nature. I hate those cop
shows but thought that Alvin and the Chipmunks was hilarious :)

Arjay,
True Psychopaths don't usually make it very far in institutions such as government or major corporations, the image of Hitler promoted by your "conspiracy" milieu is completely wrong,do some reading, anyone who knew him described him as unfailingly polite, honest, kind, helpful and even self effacing. Messianic leaders like Hitler, Mao, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Mohammed etc succeed because they are good with people, their subordinates trust and respect them and they are true leaders of men, petty martinets, bullies and cowards don't become cult figures.
Alex Jones and co are spreading disinformation, they're all pro gun right? Well the 1938 German gun laws were very liberal by today's standards, the reporting and licensing conditions were not onerous by any means, basically if there was no good reason for you not to be granted a permit, such as mental issues or a criminal record you could own a rifle or shotgun, pistols were restricted of course.
The Obama administration and it's fictional "Zionist" shadow government is nothing like the "Fascist" organisation, the conspiracy people make it out to be, they're the absolute opposite of what Fascism stood for.
This idea that gun control is a prelude to mass exterminations of defenceless people is just pure garbage, it's bad information peddled by snake oil merchants like Jones, Gordon Duff and the Truther/Patriot movement.

Doctor who is good too yabby.
We need to understand Civilization is not definates.
We make it work with compromise, in every thing.
Easy,But wrong, to claim every rule or law we do not like is a freedom lost.
Just can not put any support to sonofgloins views, but he should except the vast majority would not either.
Civilization is the ability for most, to live together.
Why should most suffer at the hands of the few?
Australians never ever would except, under any form of government, Americas gun laws.
While talking about freedom lost will we hear from those few, what are their thoughts on the thousands of innocent dead victims in America.
Did they live only to be murdered by some expressing a right to own guns?

Belly...Rechtub! Butcher are you aware of your increasingly bad habit?

Well actually Belly, No!

There was a time when I may have used personal insults, however, once brought to my attention, I changed, as I respect others rights.

Perhaps you should look in your own back yard, continually telling me that some here are I'll informed, which we are not.

As for me being mystified by some's continued support for labor, well, you tell me, how can anyone view this government as functional, do no wrong, worthy of another term.

Even as recently as yesterday, our PM has released yet another brain storm policy, WITHOUT DETAIL.

now if you wish to boycott my threads, be my guest, but seriously, I'm above that sought of childish behavior.

So hopefully you can rise above it, as I have nothing against you.

As for ones rights, our laws are generally introduced to control the 1% of rat bags, while the rest just have to accept the laws.

Americans are fanatics in many things they do and we will never be like them, so don't worry. Besides, the carrying of hand guns in public have always been banned here.

As for gun ownership here, it is not so much the gun control that bothers me, but it's the fact that your average Joe can't get a license without a strong reason.

But, the underlying stat is that there are more gun deaths here now, than there were pre gun laws.

So how have the laws helped, other than to protect crimes, as they know most residents don't own a gun, or, it is inaccessible in an emergency.

rehctub,
I totally do not like to say this but the only way we could possibly make the do-gooders see sense is if they were to be put in situations many of us have been exposed too. Have their property stolen in a break-in then when they get the Police & Magistrate involved they get told if you didn't have the rock in your garden bed the thieves couldn't have smashed your door. It really is their own fault.
They'd quickly change their mind about not being allowed to defend themselves. They'd be the first to pull the trigger if given a gun.

Indi, not sure if you remember, but there was an old guy who shot a young intruder at Redcliffe QLD many years ago.

The old guy eventually won his case against his charges, yes, he was the offender here, however it cost him his house in the ed, just to pay his legals.

The young guys defense was, 'I tried to rob the wrong house'.

So, the system assumed that had this young thug actually robbed the right house, he wouldn't have been shot.

Can you believe that.

Of cause now these thugs pretty much know there are not many guns to worry about.

At the moment we are being 'peacefully invaded', by illegals and can't stop the invasion, so god help us if the illegals turn up with guns and the like.

But of cause, I would never want to see the type of gun laws, or no gun laws the likes of those in the US.

In international terms, the United States is an
extremely violent society, with a homicide rate far
exceding that of any other industrialised nation.
A single American city like Chicago, Houston,
Los Angeles, or New York records more murders in a
typical year than does the whole of England, where even
some police don't normally carry guns. Most other
countries severely restrict private handgun ownership,
but there are millions of handguns in the US and
weapons of this type are used in more than half of the
thousands of murders that occur each year.

The American handgun homicide rate is over 77 times the
average rate for England, Japan, Sweden, Switzerland,
Australia, Israel, and Canada combined.

Why then, does the US permit such widespread access to
handguns? One reason is the persistent belief that, since
criminals have guns, law-abiding people need them for
self-protection.

Actually, gun-owning households are much more likely to
suffer fatalities from their own weapons than from those
of outsiders.

One study found that only 2 percent of all slayings in
gun-owning households were for self-protection; the
remainder were suicides, homicides, or accidental deaths,
almost all involving family members, friends, or
acquaintances.

A second reason for the proliferation of handguns is the
belief, as I stated earlier, that's deeply held by many
Americans, that gun ownership is an individual right.

By granting this liberty to the individual, American
society pays the price in the deviance of those who abuse
it.

We can only trust that our governments will not allow this
type of society to come any closer to our shores.

Lexi you got it on the nail head in that post, I agree with every word.
We, me too, drift about in our threads, but I think this one is about American Gun Culture.
Rechtub, look back at what I saw as needless and factually wrong in your post.
You assured me that no one carried guns in their purses.
When pulled up, by others, you took it back, but the insulted presentation of that post was aimed at me.
I still fail to see any link to our current laws And America, OK better or worse could be a discussion point.
But some comments seem to request a return to past days or even the American system.
ANY ONE wanting to own a rifle can join a sporting shooters club, UNLESS they have form for violence or criminal pasts, they will get it.
I WARN the increasing deaths in this country is imported, not from American culture but another.
Guns or knives these things will continue until prison terms include confiscation of every thing they own, to pay for prison costs.

Hi there BELLY...

Wow, you sure generated some discussion with this particular topic.

Anyway, my little contribution - I hit a bit of a hurdle when I was in the job, and as a consequence I had to do my penance in Licensing,
more specifically the Firearms Registry (undertaking enquiries apropos, un-licensed and prohibited persons, with F/A's).

From my experience, most crime associated with the use of a F/A are committed by individual's who circumvent the F/A laws, and obtain a gun through illicit means. Believe it or not, most serious crime is not committed by someone who is fully lic. to possess a F/A.

Most crooks obtain a gun through other crooks. There's a large criminal enterprise engaged in illegally importing F/A's into the country via Containers etc.

Crooks are secure in the knowledge that the ACS can only physically check a small number of containers. Thus, they (ACS) accomplish most of their interdiction through the medium of Intelligence, and advice from Interpol and other law enforcement bodies, abroad.

The illegal gun trade is worth millions, I do mean millions !

Most serious (capital) crime perpetrated by licensed F/A persons, is that initially, involving domestic violence as the catalyst. Which often, can rapidly degenerate, and result in manslaughter even murder.

That's why police carefully scrutinize an applicant for a F/A Lic., and if there's any evidence of DV (in fact any conviction(s) for a violent act), often police will raise an objection to the granting of a Licence. The applicant must then make application to a Court, and it's up to to them, whether a F/A Licence is granted.

Even, then the Court may still seek an opinion from both police and Medical people, as to the fitness or otherwise of an applicant. Mental Illness in itself, doesn't always rule out an applicant. However, it is up to that person to prove to the Court's satisfaction, that the applicant is a fit and proper person to be in possession of a F/A.

Current price of an AK47 in southern NSW is less than $350 including 1000 rounds of ammo. I know many people with illegal weapons but doubt there is a criminal conviction among them. To say the problem of illegal weapons is mainly confined to criminal elements is not the full story.

Lexi & Belly,
I appreciate your comments re America vs Oz gun culture. However, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that Australia is generally 20 years behind so there goes that theory of us being "better".
I'm quite content with our gun culture but what worries me greatly is the gun culture that is being imported with the silent invasion. (see rehctub's post . ) I do so wish people would start looking ahead a few years instead of being contend with now. I for one subscribe to Hasbeen's logic where Australians are being conditioned to being useless with guns when the time comes when we have to rely on our skills with weapons. It won't happen overnight but it will happen !
Keep an eye on the invasion.

Hi there CSTEELE...

Em, an interesting proposition. The mere fact that they've chosen NOT to licence their F/A's, is in itself a crime, I'm afraid.

I'm talking generally, not specifically. However, I'll not be pedantic about the issue. Nor will I state what the stats from the Institute of Criminology reveal either.

I'm not entirely sure why some folk (mainly male) feel a need to illegally harbour a F/A. If caught, that individual will lose his or her good fame and character just to prove what a stupid decision PM Howard made, post Port Arthur.

This 'blokey' attitude, '...no bastard's going to take away my bloody gun, I've been shootin' since the year dot...' or similar ! Mate, I just don't get it, I really don't.

If they want a gun, all they've gotta do, is get legal, that's all.

There again CSTEELE, I'm just a dumb ex 'Jack', what would I know ?

Dear o sung wu,

As a person who had numerous firearms as a teenager I'm not sure I might not have been tempted to get my hands on a AK47 whatever its legality. The problem is some of us never grow up. My cousin who is now a state policeman certainly had some questionable weaponry in his time. I recall being quite jealous of an Italian automatic shotgun of his complete with pistol grip and removable stock.

Therefore I do sort of get it plus the thrill of getting away with something illegal but most of us mature. Some however do get left behind.

o sung wo welcome we do not see enough of you.
As you would know police are closer to us in small community, friendship some times survives their transfer to other areas.
And playing football with them in many country towns tightens the tie.
So I agree and understand your view.
I think we both know there are some real ferrels out there, along with good folk who are just hot headed.
Again civilization needs, compromise.
I think we should, while understanding it, leave the imported gun culture in our country, for another thread.
But consider, in my view understand, America would be so much better if it took on our laws not the miss placed cowboy/red under the bed culture.
I put extreme concern even fear in the imported gun/criminal /separate culture, if some one cares to start a thread I will come.

I just love this picture. It represents all that is U S of A!

http://www.mrtoledano.com/the-united-states-of-entertainment/07

http://www.mrtoledano.com/the-united-states-of-entertainment/08

Thanks for the links H cheered me up no end.
Nice to see sporting shooters/hill billy,s at work.
Wounder if I could buy the car?

Hello there CSTEELE...

You're quite correct. It is a case of maturity, and I don't think there's a bloke amongst us who's not engaged in a bit of mischief at one time or another. Not only with guns, but cars, women, money and all the other alluring diversions a young man must ultimately confront during the passage of his life.

And with that maturity, comes a little more wisdom, and with that added wisdom, comes a deeper clarity of what the outcomes of this behaviour may be, should he persist with this type of injudicious conduct...?

Don't get me wrong CSTEELE, I've nothing against F/A's per se., and I must admit, I did enjoy a bit of 'plinking' from time to time with negligible regard, to ensuring I was sufficiently distanced, from a; house, hut, shop, tent, public place, ad nauseam...? And as you say, most of us (hopefully) mature.

Cheers...Sung Wu.

Good evening to you BELLY...

As usual, you speak a whole lot of sense BELLY, you really do !

In fact, there's really nobody who has contributed to this contentious thread who's not furnished us all with some most positive and interesting views and opinions on F/A's.

Whatever, one's thoughts are of America or Americans, with respect to their Gun laws... sorry, I've got that wrong. The fact there's little or no effective legislation in the United States, that decisively regulates people's behaviour, with either (a) acquisition (b) possession, (c)carriage; or (d)lawful use, of a F/A, that's essentially, what really concerns me.

Apparently, it's enshrined in their Constitution, something to the effect...'The Right to Bare Arms'. I'd shudder, if such a 'right' were enacted here in Oz.

I could only imagine, if some of the people I've locked-up, resided in a Country with a F/A philosophy similar to that which exists in the United States...Gawd help us !

Thanks o sung wo I think as you do.
America concerns me, I grew up and to some extent still loving the place.
If I had the money it would be the place I would visit.
I want, truly, to never hear the awful news mass deaths have taken place there.
Every time my second thought is what a dreadful place.
But first is for the dead and their family.
If only they could change those events who needs ak47,s?
Sadly in Sydney you can buy one, any gun, but it is illegal not state sanctioned .

Last night while surfing free to air TV.
In the desert that pre 8pm is,I found a documentary about this subject.
It was on SBS one of its best doco shows.
Strange but while a fan I can not remember its name.
Basically its heart was about a police specialist, telling teachers how to survive amass school shooting.
We saw Virginia Tec, film and survivors.
It bought disgust.
Sure, folk will say something is wrong with a country that could bring those two about, maybe there is.
But the guns!
Forgiving those whoforg9ot this is not about us,and taking on board the increasing IMPORTED CRIMINAL every day shootings in Sydney.
Maybe both country's need more not less control, bigger prison sentences COMPULSORY for gun crimes.
Virginia Tec, I remember, freedom? what freedom for the dead?