It was very heartening to see the bravery of the young men who saved the lives of their girlfriends when the science graduate went beserk the other day murdering people at the Batman movie. I suspect many of the feminist who seem to delight in finding fault with the male species will be silent on this issue.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/aurora-shooting-boyfriends-died-protecting-girlfriends_n_1695290.html

Dear runner,

Finding faults with either gender is so
easy - isn't it?

Bravery, should be acknowledged and appeciated
especially in what must have been a terrifying
situation. The following link adds more to this
story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18979662

What is it with you, runner?

Why would you use this tragedy to disparage anyone?

Yes they acted heroically.

What more can be said?

'Finding faults with either gender is so
easy - isn't it? '

Is true Lexi although male bashing has become a national sport among many media contributors.

'Yes they acted heroically.

What more can be said? '

Plenty Poirot

Very well, runner.

I'll be happy to read of your positive opinion concerning the brave young men.

Forgive me for thinking you used the last sentence of your initial post merely to cock a snoot at feminists.

I'm sure your heart was in the right place (as usual)

One of the most noticably attributes was the young mens natural instinct to protect their woman. They literally took the bullet for them. It is contrasted recently by a young gentleman who offered his seat to a woman on public transport. She took offence refusing his offer. His response was that he would continue to act like a gentleman even if she did not want to act like a lady.

I wouldn't expect feminists to feel the need to be silent on any issue of obvious selfless bravery in defence of others, runner.

Though I would expect them to lament the need for such bravery in the first place and then point to links such as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

and suggest you find the females…

then draw a conclusion rather than contrast a public transport offer of a seat.

Bravery is not restricted by sex or age.
Bigotry is not either.
But some comments come from a fixed unmovable position, and rather than bigotry are just the best that person can produce.
The God I once knew has followers who do not even begin to understand his teachings.

Dear runner,

To the best of my knowledge feminists want:

1. Equal pay for equal work
2. Control of their own bodies
3. The respect that every human regardless of sex should have

What do you think they want?

Runner, I heard of another young woman, who followed her close friend to the floor after she was shot, in the neck I believe.

This young woman put her hand into the wound that was gushing blood. At the same time she used her phone to ring the police.

The wounded young woman begged her to run. She did not leave her friends side until they got to safety.

It was luck for most in that theatre that the gun jammed.
Bravery and the ability to assist has little to do with gender.

runner, all that occurred is that they helped a friend. I notice, it was man holding that gun. What does that mean in.

Flo

'runner, all that occurred is that they helped a friend. I notice, it was man holding that gun. What does that mean in.'

It sounds to me she was very much a hero as were the young men. So its nice to know that there are many woman out their who are not into the usual feminist sport of man bashing.

david f

'1. Equal pay for equal work
2. Control of their own bodies
3. The respect that every human regardless of sex should have

Reading any number of posts by prominant feminist indicate they want a lot more than your assertions. No one could argue that your description of what any person would want is fair.

I am a feminist a bit long in the tooth. That is all I want.

My mother, born 1907, did not bother about feminism, or I believe her mother before her.

They just lived their lives as if they were equal.

All you have described is what decent people who care from one another expect.

Nothing to do with gender.

Why you see this attitude as demeaning the male gender, I do not understand.

Good manners have nothing to do with feminism.

I agree with most of the correspondents herein...

Bravery, courage or whatever you want to call it, is not the sole preserve of Males. There have been many females who have acted very courageously in the face of adversity. And I have personally witnessed such courage on a number of occasions.

Dear runner,

You wrote: "Reading any number of posts by prominant feminist indicate they want a lot more than your assertions."

Rather than refer to "any number of posts by prominant feminist" please cite specifically one instance or more where a feminist wanted what is unreasonable.

You have made such statements before without providing any evidence to back up those statements.

If it was not for the inhumane and barbaric attitudes of the US gun lobby , mass killings like this would be few and far between. As John Howard said "we are not going along with this American way of doing things". And when put to the vote Australian parliaments have endorsed that view.

runner you keep saying they want more. Maybe you could explaon what the more is that they want.

Dear PEST,

The gun lobby only makes sure that the guns are available. Canada and Switzerland both have a greater level of gun ownership than the US but have much lower rates of firearm mayhem. It is not merely the availability of guns but a culture which encourages their use against other people.

runner,

It appears you started this thread under the guise of recognising the bravery of some young men...but it was only a vehicle for you to put the boot into feminists.

Tip: If in the future you wish to criticise feminism, just start a thread criticising feminism.

Not very good form.

I would like to say, I would like to give credit for all the bravery that occurred on that day.

It is hitting below the belt, to try and turn the bravery into an argument against feminism.

Firstly I agree with those who make the point that bravery and self sacrifice is not gendered.

Now for the bit where I'll hate myself in the morning, I need to stick up for runner(a bit).

Of runners critics other than Poirot who gets as outraged when its someone from the mums lobby playing up a incident where a dad harms his kids as a way of trying to leverage the incident? Thats happened often enough on OLO to be something that those who've been around for a while can ask themselves.

I rad runners comments as a response to the often overwhelmingly negative views of males and masculinity espoused by SOME feminist authors. Who doubts the view that numbers of feminist writers tout a line of male oppression of women, of male privilege with little mention of male sacrifice for family.

I dont agree with many of runners views but some of the outrage directed at him over this seems well out of context.

It is tasteless to try to score points off such a tragedy but in the face of the some of the portrayal of msaculinity I've seen I have some empathy for the point runner appears to be trying to make.

R0bert

RObert,

You are the most reasonable of male contributors to this forum. Your reason, tolerance and balance are difficult to surpass. (really respect you, mate)

It just seems a bit off to use the incredible bravery of those men, who probably reacted from instinct (and shows you how men are programmed to protect as much as anything) to slam dunk feminists.

WmTrevor made a spectacular point with his post... that it's usually other "men" who men have to protect women from - as in the cinema situation. The point feminism makes is that violence from men is a huge problem - and it is. That doesn't mean that women are perfect or that all men are violent.

I get runner's point - but as you say, it's tasteless in the face of tragedy.

G'day R0bert, I actually share your bit of empathy for the point runner may have been trying to make which is why my post attempted instruction…

Maybe he would have been better off using the 'C' word?

As in: "I look forward to the acknowledgements of the chivalry shown by so many brave men in the aurora shooting from posters who only ever comment negatively about males."

Some women put men down, and some men put women down. However, I don't know what sex does it more, and I don't know that feminists do it more than other women. I imagine there is plenty of putdowns of men among women who are not feminists.

I think runner has a stereotype of a feminist which does not accord with reality. It looks to me similar to the white people in the US who called black people demonstrating for civil rights uppity. Prejudice against another group is ugly, but it is common. Sometimes it is a reaction against a group which wants to be treated equally. Sometimes a protesting group may be ugly in their protest. That does not make their protest less valid.

Under the guise of morality and concern for life runner gets excited about abortion. The right of abortion is part of the right of women to control their own bodies. That drives runner up the wall. The life of a woman is more important than the life of a fetus. That is my view which I think differs from that of runner. However, runner, I and everybody else owe our lives to a woman.

davidf

'However, runner, I and everybody else owe our lives to a woman.'
and aren't you glad you were not snuffed out in the womb in which case you would not have an opinion.

btw I owe my life to my Maker who gave man and woman the ability to have children. I am thankful to my father and mother especially that they decided not to terminate me despite what a few others would wish.

runner wrote:

'However, runner, I and everybody else owe our lives to a woman.'
and aren't you glad you were not snuffed out in the womb in which case you would not have an opinion.

Dear runner,

I think it was my mother's right to decide not to have me. If she had not had me I would not know the difference as I would not be here. My mother was married and able to have and raise a child. Not every pregnant woman is in that situation. Some women are pregnant by rape or incest. Women should not be forced to have a child if they are pregnant.

You also wrote:

btw I owe my life to my Maker who gave man and woman the ability to have children. I am thankful to my father and mother especially that they decided not to terminate me despite what a few others would wish.

Dear runner,

I think you're a little confused here. I'm sure no spirit impregnated your mother as in the virgin birth, Leda and Zeus in form of a swan and other primitive fables which I mentioned in a previous post to you. You owe your life to your mother and father. They were your only makers. I'm glad you're here, and we can post to each other. I certainly don't wish your mother had terminated you, but I think she had a right to do so. She and your father wanted you and presumably were able to give you loving care. Every pregnant woman is not in that situation.

davidf

'Some women are pregnant by rape or incest. Women should not be forced to have a child if they are pregnant.; '

That accounts for less than 3 % of abortions. Why focus on these when 97% or so is simply convenience.

btw a mother has no more right to kill her child than a father does in God's eyes. I dare say you deliberately remain blind to reality in order to support your worldview.

Dear runner,

You're the one who believes in fairy tales - not me. I face reality and don't rely on mumbojumbo.

You have a right to rely on mumbojumbo and even call those who don't share your superstition blind to reality. You often exercise that right.

I'm not sure of the statistics of women who are pregnant by rape or incest. Do you support their right to have an abortion?

Do you support the use of contraceptives? Effective contraception can eliminate unwanted pregnancies.

How about a woman who feels unable to raise a child properly? Do you support her right to have an abortion?

How about a married woman whose husband dies and leaves her penniless? Do you support her right to have an abortion?

How about a woman who is told her fetus will be born severely disabled or will only live a short time after birth? Do you support her right to have an abortion?

How about a woman whose contraceptive fails? Do you support her right to have an abortion?

I would support abortion and/or use of contraceptives for all of the above. Where do you disagree?

davidf

your complete lack of acceptance of the right of the unborn is consitent and evident. You close your eyes to the reality of life in order to support your dogmas on womens rights. Its no wonder you support the murder of them. If you want me to address your numerous abortion questions I suggest you start a post on it.

Dear runner,

That is a good idea of yours to start a string on the subject. However, remember that I wrote that feminists demand:

1. Equal pay for equal work
2. Control of their own bodies
3. The respect that every human regardless of sex should have

You answered:

"Reading any number of posts by prominant feminist indicate they want a lot more than your assertions. No one could argue that your description of what any person would want is fair."

I asked you to state what feminists wanted besides that, and you gave no examples. You agreed with those three points. A fetus is part of a woman's body. It is no more an independent human being than a sperm is. You did grant that a woman should have control of her own body. Since a fetus is part of her body she has the right to abortion. You have been on both sides. You argue against abortion but agree that a woman should have control over her own body. You did grant that those three points were fair. Control of her body includes the right to abortion since a fetus is part of a woman's body. You have no more right to tell her what to do with a fetus than she has to tell you what to do with your sperm.

runner, and others who blame all abortions on women should also acknowledge, that many men also demand the same action.

Woman are not always in the position to proceed with having the baby, often because of lack of support from the father.

It is a shame to see the bravery of both sexes used as an attack against feminism.

It just proves how some men cannot accept the reality of the modern age That is, woman are no longer have to depend on men for their existence.

Like most women, I do love men. Loving men, does not mean I like to depend on them. I also love my independence. I have met few men that want to depend on woman for their existence. Why should they.

Poirot, agreed that it's tasteless. The respect is mutual BTW.

Part of my point is that runner is not an island in trying to score points off tragedy. In the recognising violence thread in the Articles area Jocelynne Scutt uses an example of abuse of a child (in this case by a woman) to set the scene for supporting the expanded definitions of what's violence in DV situations as well as to remind us several times that it's mostly women and children at risk. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=13912

In an article from June last year Patricia Merkin used one of the West Gate Bridge tragedies to push an anti-male agenda. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12255&page=0 There have been a number of other articles using a similar tactic, I've responded at times by pointing to tragedies which highlight the other side of that coin, not to try and score points of tragedy but to try and provide some balance to the one sided portrayal of family violence used by some authors.

runner has not invented the tactic, it's still tasteless and like some others omitting examples which don't suit the point. Or as ChazP put it when caught out selectively quoting stats on child abuse "The selective use/misuse of information is part and parcel of any debate." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12255#212833 - from memory ChazP is the Patricia who use the West Gate Bridge example.

R0bert

Flo

'runner, and others who blame all abortions on women should also acknowledge, that many men also demand the same action.'

No problem at all Flo. I agree 100%.

I find it interesting that posters accuse me of trying to score 'points ' from a tragedy. If pointing out the silence of those acknowledging the bravery of the 4 males who took bullets for their woman is scoring points so be it. I do thank you Robert for being reasonable in your posts.

To me every abortion is a tragedy. I do think however in the Batman slaughter that the extreme bravery of these men have not been widely acknowledged or the fact that it was instinctive to them to protect the fairer species.

Many feminist should be the last to pontificate about me point scoring. Look at the vile things said by Deveny about Bindy Irvine.

Runner…

...Your very brave me thinks. This is a site rich in the bile of lesbian politics and menaces of homosexuality and liberalism! Like the penguins they are, they huddle for warmth within the secured walls of OLO.

...But...I love your posts and will continue to read (and support) them, with relish!

Dear runner,

You write: "To me every abortion is a tragedy"

In there is no nuance - no acknowledgement of circumstances. If a woman who is raped is compelled to bear the child of the criminal who raped her that is a tragedy. The abortion is not.

If a woman who has 11 child and is pregnant with the twelth because of the sexual demands of her husband who refuses to use a contraceptive is compelled to have a twelfth child that is a tragedy. The abortion is not.

My wife was a visiting nurse. She gave women who did not want more children contraceptive advice. When the agency found out they fired her.

In the above cases and in many other cases the rights of the born prevail over the rights of the unborn.

in some cases abortion is simply the best course of action for the pregnant woman. Those abortions are not tragedies. The births are.

Colorado shooter was under the care of University Psychiatrist.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/aurora-shooting-suspect-was-under-psychiatrists-care-7984483.html
The doctor who was allegedly managing Holmes' case is an expert on schizophrenia and was a member of a board which assessed the threats to campus security posed by disruptive or mentally ill students.

The Pseudocommando mass killer often dies in a shootout with Police or commits suicide, many who are apprehended are found mentally unfit to stand trial, it's only a minority who are well enough to be tried and jailed or executed.
http://www.julianknight-hoddlestreet.ca/julian-knight-research-file/mass-murderers.html

'Colorado shooter was under the care of University Psychiatrist.' Interesting if he was under the care of a Pastor you could imagine who would get the blame. Also if his degree was theology insted of science I am sure much would of been made of it.

Dear runner,

There is a great connection between “revealed religion and mental illness. Much of religion has a built-in nuttiness. The following is about Christian craziness. However, religious craziness is not confined to Christianity. Christianity is the main source of religious insanity in our society. Other societies have other sources.

From the following website.

http://www.deism.com/religionmentalillness.htm

Mental health is a very important and required element for a productive, progressive and happy life. The false claims made by the various "revealed" religions, especially when introduced at an early age, cause much mental anguish and pain to individuals which then has a great potential to have a negative effect on society in general. For example, the case of Andrea Yates who murdered her five little children because she thought Satan had possessed her and was soon going to possess her children. In her twisted Bible based mind, if she murdered her children before "the age of accountability" they would all go to heaven. She thought she'd be executed for the murders and Satan would die with her.

In a similar case which stinks of the Bible story of God telling Abraham to kill his son, Deanna Laney murdered two of her little boys by stoning them to death and then severely handicapped her third little boy. She did this because she thought God wanted her to do it to "prove her complete and unconditional faith in Him." Of course, God never told Abraham or Mrs. Laney or anyone else to murder their children! THE BIBLE IS WRONG! Our God-given reason tells us that the Bible is wrong! Unfortunately, the billions of people who are currently suffering from "revealed" religion put the teachings of the men who wrote the Bible and the men who voted it to be the word of God before God's gift to them of reason.

The Bible and Koran encourage insanity.

davidf

'There is a great connection between “revealed religion and mental illness. '

Yeah and there is great 'intelligence' in denying our Creator and coming up with the something from nothing fantasy'. And of course the Marxist are all intelligent loving people with no hint of mental illness.

You don't know how deluded you are Davidf. That is why with a straight face you can call killing the unborn termination. Thankfully the book that never lies shows clearly whose views will win out. And they won't be yours unless you gain a little common sense

Jame Holmes is certainly a complex character, he worked as a summer camp counsellor with the Jewish Big Brother/Big Sister program which takes underprivileged kids away on holiday.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/colorado-shooting-suspect-worked-at-a-jewish-summer-camp-says-l-a-report-1.452713
He must have gone down hill quite quickly in the past few years so the suspicions being aired that he's mentally ill may be correct.

Dear runner,

You rely a great deal on that book of fairy tales, the Bible. As far as I know it contains no condemnation of abortion. In your ranting about the unborn you show no concern for the born - the woman who has to bear an unwanted or badly disabled child. The woman doesn't seem to matter to you at all. That's morality? You will never be in the position of having to bear a child, and you show no regard for the part of the population that does. I think it's immoral to deny the interests of half the human population. The interests of the born are far more important than the interests of sperm, egg or fetus. However, I expect you to continue to maintain your immorality.

You are just one of the many males who decide what women should do. You apparently feel justified in your immorality.