I wonder how sustainability-oriented our government would be if they had free rein to make policies, without big business bearing down on them and all manner of people crying foul if we get even a tiny increase in taxes, costs or other impositions?

Gillard’s disagreement with Rudd’s big Australia has gone. She’s been silenced. And yet this is an enormously important issue – whether Australia has a population of 24 or 36 or 50 million or whatever before it stabilises. She clearly desires something other than what her government is offering in this regard.

Kelvin Thomson, long-serving Federal Member for Wills, has for some years now been giving speeches and interviews about the need to reduce immigration, stabilise our population and head towards a sustainable society.

A lot of what he says flies in the face of Labor policy. But he apparently has complete freedom to say it.

This would suggest to me that Gillard and the Labor leadership secretly agree with him and want him to sway the Australia public towards that way of thinking, but that they daren’t do it themselves for fear of a major backlash from big business and various other interests.

Bob Carr has similar often-expressed views to Thomson and has had for decades. Gillard knows this and yet she brought him into the top level of her government.

So what’s going on? Does Labor desire to break out of the terribly antisustainable continuous rapid growth trap and head towards a sensible Carr/Thomson political philosophy? Or are they just all over the place and undisciplined in allowing these two parliamentary members to continuously express views that are strongly in conflict with current Labor practices?

yes ludwig..as soon as they know
no doudt we will find out

till then..theres the army of bloggers
to inform us..its all going just as planned
[by unseen minds..willing to do unspeakable things]

have you noted how the dollar swings up/down
everytime juliar gifts someone else more money?
to bailout some other too big to fail[or bailout industry that cant produce without govt subsidy]

if its for big business as usual
its not serving us

just like the unions betryed us[even our bank betryed us]
what SHOULD be govt debt[is held on our kids credit cards]
somehow fed govt is near debt free[but states past default]
under the lot of it is too many levels of govt indexed taxing us

before govt started 'subsidy' of child care local councils did it for a third of the cost[and clever kids did it cheaper]..put childminding ALL IN ONE PLACE[make schools run 24/7]get rid of states..just fed plus council

WE GOT TO MANY GOVT LEECHES
leeching out of the public purse
NEEDING ETERNAL GROWTH[thus the high numbers spiral]

most the world is just looking for maximum return on investment
willing to buy govt bonds..returning less than inflation

and we grow
boom/bust

we build masive TEMPERARY infastucture]
pipelines rail into the never never[for a 30 year slow death]

[put in wind power/solar..doubling the true price..to build infastructureports rail highways through the great[lol] barie reef
\
[so rich elites can export our common wealth]
with ghost railways..from deep water ports..to holes in the ground

its an endless growth VORTEX*
keep shoveling fiat paper..into *

just like the memories of the boat people
sunk without a trace..[such is the future of this huh?man race]

where corperate trust
turned the life works of the living
into perpetual rust dust[from dust ye came]

to dust you wioll return
till then what matters is
just what did you do to change things?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

our govt working for us
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57459357/gm-grass-linked-to-texas-cattle-deaths/

A mysterious mass death..of a herd of cattle
has prompted a federal investigation..in Central Texas.

Preliminary test results..are blaming the deaths on the GM/grass the cows were eating when they got sick,..reports CBS Station KEYE.

The cows dropped dead..several weeks ago on an 80-acre ranch owned by Jerry Abel in Elgin, just east of Austin...Abel says he's been using the fields for cattle grazing and hay for 15 years.

"A lot of leaf,..it's good grass,..tested high for protein
it should have been perfect,"..he told KEYE/correspondent..Lisa Leigh Kelly.

The grass is a genetically-modified form of Bermuda known as Tifton 85 which has been growing here for 15 years, ..eeding Abel's 18 head of Corriente cattle.

Corriente are used for team roping because of their small size and horns. "When we opened that gate to that fresh grass, they were all very anxious to get to that," said Abel.

Three weeks ago,*..the cattle had just been turned out
to enjoy the fresh grass,..when something went terribly wrong.

"When our trainer first heard the bellowing,..he thought/our pregnant heifer..may be having a calf or something," said Abel.

"But when he got down here,
virtually..*all of the steers..and heifers..were on the ground.

Some were already dead,
and the others were already in convulsions..." Within hours,..15 of the 18 cattle were dead.

"That was very traumatic to see,because there was nothing..you could do,..*obviously,..they were dying,".said Abel.

Preliminary tests revealed the Tifton 85 grass, ..which has been here for years, had suddenly started producing cyanide gas, poisoning the cattle. ..Coming off the drought that we had the last two years

we're concerned it was a combination of events that led us to this," Dr. Gary Warner, an Elgin veterinarian and cattle specialist who conducted the 15 necropsies, told Kelly.

What is more worrisome:..Other farmers have tested their Tifton 85 grass,..and several in Bastrop County..have found their fields are also toxic with cyanide.!

However,[as yet]..no other cattle have died.

Scientists at the U.S. Department of Agriculture..are dissecting the grass..to determine if there might have been some strange,unexpected mutation.

lol.

http://rt.com/usa/news/monsanto-crops-biotech-genetically-325/

http://www.thelonestarwatchdog.com/2012/06/23/congress-should-have-investigated-steriod-abuse-in-law-enforcement-not-roger-clemons-and-major-league-baseball/

Here’s a bit of background info on Thomson and Carr, just to demonstrate how strongly at odds they are with Labor’s massive immigration program, policy of continuous rapid population growth and their overall worship of growth as the cure for everything!

Kelvin Thomson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUEayFEWwOg

'14 Point Plan for Population Reform'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMLNxszTdO0&feature=relmfu

‘It staggers me that we so often ignore the elephant in the room: increasing population”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSSOCpSIAis&feature=endscreen&NR=1

“I don’t want to see Melbourne become a city like Mumbai or Shanghai or Mexico City”

Bob Carr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNh6ApXa_KM

‘Paul Ehrlich is the prophet.’

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FtoSqStdTU&feature=relmfu

“It’s deeply imbedded in the Australian psychology that we’ve got to go for a bigger and bigger population”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9S9XzEYI_0&feature=relmfu

“a silly economist, Saul Eslake…”

Now surely if any member of the Labor party were to strongly and consistently contradict the practices and policies of the party in any other way, they’d be out on their ear real quick!

Luddy, perhaps supporters of a smaller population should lobby for the right to take ones own life, then, once they reach 50, or their kids are grown up, which ever comes first, they can legally 'neck themselves' which will make room for others without the rapid growth you seem so concerned about.

You see many don't share your views about over populating, so perhaps this is the only solution, as then those who oppose the rapid growth, can actually do something about it, without effecting the rest of us.

No offense intended,just my warped sense of humor kicking in, as I quite enjoy most of your posts.

In an era of zero growth any increase in population must mean that
the available resources, food, building materials, services etc must
be shared around in smaller and smaller shares.

Does this seem familiar to you and do you see it in our political
machinations ?
Yes, every extra person directly means less for you, no ifs no buts.
Thats the way it is.
Just how hard it will get as we enter an economic contraction as
energy sources deplete is anyones guess.
Very few politicians see this so starkly and so go with "she'll be right".
Well she won't be right and it will require some enlightened activity
on their part to get us into the new era of sustainable economy.

Ludwig I knew the thread was yours after just reading the title.
You and I are a minority.
From the post war days of populate or perish, gee that has a new meaning now.
Capitalism needs growth.
We as yet have found nothing as good as it,and every country wants growth .
Greed demands it, we, at times have over looked every reason to stop growth.
America has its people sleeping in the streets, yet is setting an amnesty for illegal migrants.
Yes Labor Liberals too,are hooked on growth.
Those of us aware of the long term impacts are not being heard.
Only a future calamity will change that.

Thanks for your quite considerable input OUG.

.
Belly, we need to be very careful about that word ‘growth’.

It has different components, some of which are highly conflicting. Population growth, which means growth in the demand for all goods, services and infrastructure, sits strongly at odds with economic growth, which we need to constantly increase the provision of goods, services and infrastructure.

Hey, our government SHOULD be chasing growth, but only of the second type… and for goodness sake they should be pulling right back on the first type which variously reduces, cancels out or overwhelms different aspects of the second type.

<< Only a future calamity will change that. >>

Yair, you are probably right.

But I would dearly like to think that a Carr/Thomson Labor government is possible. And that if it were to happen, we’d suddenly have hundreds of politicians making the switch to support them.

Labor is heading for certain defeat and there is a lot of talk about the party going into terminal decline. So what have they got to lose by embracing the strategy of two of their most intelligent MPs, which just happens to be precisely what the country really needs and which would gel with a large percentage of the votership?

Hey, Thomson and Carr haven’t been hounded out of office or ridiculed into silence. Quite to the contrary: they have generated a great deal of support.

Growth Ludwig is also spelled SELF INTEREST for land developers builders small towns growth is more, of every thing.
Haters of Bob Carr should be aware, maybe they are and hate him for it, he made more national parks than any one.
He warned of inner city slums to come, called for an end to migration at current levels.
We you and I pee in to an endless and strong wind.
My silent sitting in the scrub in areas that may never have seen a man, of any color, are not forever.
Some one will one day sit on my veranda and not to watch the full moon sneak above the trees like a bush fire then a great big ball.
But past high rises and future slums.
The calamity comes mate and our love of the bush is threatened but its not at our hands.

Ludwig,
I am in the same camp as you and Belly on this. I did not like Bob Carr as Premier for other reasons, but he did oppose high immigration and I think mainly because Sydney ended up with most of them which meant that NSW had to find extra funds for the infastructure required.I am not at all sure if he opposed high immigration per sey.

I do not know if Labor is tied into growth, but both major parties receive big donations to party funds from the buisness sector and buisness supports high immigration because it means more sales for them. Whether it be land for houses, cars, white goods, electrical or food and the end sellers do not care whether it is imported or made locally.

To them your two seperate areas of growth become the same,i.e. more people means more economic growth, and when more people arrive the business turnover goes up and they do not have to compete with each other to increase sales.

So really 'he who pays the piper, calls the tune' and big business pays both parties to favour high immigration. The Greens do not object too much, even though their aim is lower immigration, because they rely on Labor preferences for their Senate seats.

Except Banjo, everything changed in 2008.
Banjo said;
To them your two seperate areas of growth become the same,i.e. more
people means more economic growth, and when more people arrive the
business turnover goes up and they do not have to compete with each
other to increase sales.
-_-
Now an increasing number of people does not mean economic growth.
Here, we are trying to grow on China trade, but even a comparatively
small drop in China trade will mean zero growth.
You can see this in Sydney now as growth here is basically zero.
The state government has a great big money hole into which it will
poor Canberra's pixel money.

im learning to save thread offers[to post them]instead of just letting them drift into the aether

so who dun it..alp/lnp[same same]
regardless qld'ers are in hot water shock

i heard a comment recently on abc national
that 3 out of every ten dollars raised by states..is via services[quasi/govt cashcows]

just gotta letter from origin
informs me.[us]..you qld'er's
res tarrif[11]..without the c02 tax..will go from22.759
to 25.905..[gst included]..gst = 3 cents
SERVICE FEE[per metering point]=FROM 28,787
to 64.900
THATS DOUBLE*

next tarrif 31-
9.284 cents..to 14.410

tarrif 33 [off peak]
13,673 to 20,416

THATS NEAR DOUBLE
your hotwater bill is going to double[or near enough]..or soon will

from 13 cents to 20 cent's
comeon..[switch the darn thing off]
i will take cold showers..so what if i smell
[if i want a hot bath..i will just lay a garden hose in the sun

queenslanders..your about to pay
[but who do we blame..?

[who [alp?..lnp?]..said it was ok
to use services as cash cows?

to revenue raise off basic services]

after this fully half will come from your bills..for basic services

i think we should do something[like turn the beggers off]

Yes Banjo, regarding the donations regime; big business literally buys government policy. Donations along with all manner of other favours and the lure of lucrative jobs for pollies after politics all adds up to a case of big business having our government by the balls… with a vice-like grip!

And what that really amounts to is us, the whole of society and the whole planet, having ourselves by the balls!

We seem to be totally hooked into a boom-and-crash event process.

Now, wouldn’t it be nice if a big business CEO or two came out and espoused population stabilisation and the achievement of a sustainable society.

Perhaps that’s the key to making some progress here.

But then, I suppose that’s about as likely as every feral pig in Australia suddenly sproutng wings, flying to Canberra and dumping and enormous pile of pig poo on parliament house!

Hwaaaw!!

ok correction..tarrif 33[not off peak]..
increased from

tarrif 33 [normal?]
13,673 to 20,416

THATS NEAR DOUBLE

next tarrif 31-[off peak]
9.284 cents..to 14.410

your hotwater bill 5 cent up
normal power
from 13 cents to 20 cent's

so i yet repeat
comeon..[switch the darn thing off]
boycot these mongral defacto govt revenue raising cash cows

reduce your consumption regardless
turn off ya hot water[it only takes 2 hours to heat up each day]
why heat the earth the rest of the day[put it on a timer..to come on two hours before you come home

then off till tomorrow[same time]

run 12 volt stuff..direct from a car battery
get a solar charger for your battery[or charge it up from mains]
heck if electic cars cost 33 cents recharge how much just one CAR battery

a lot of stuff runs off 12 volt's

its all cause state govts want growth
install luxury over capacity..in lue of getting the supply [12 bvolt]..we are using in so many cases[rightfully so]..a solar cell and two batteries[cost 250 bucks]..and im off the grid

but as power is only 50 bucks
its not worth the bother [till now]
plus carbon tax..[this has to be all alp

lnp..could gain greater creedance by halving the increase[instead of the lol promise to freeze it[next time?]..its the same money grabbing govt and the publick sir-vice

growth=more taxes..on the mugs paying tax
the clever money/asets is in family trusts[tax them]

damm another polie crying in parlement[as i type]
damm boat people..dying to get into our system
to bring down the average..standard[so they vote as their told]

Ludwig,

I agree entirely with your and Banjo's diagnosis of the problem, but what to do about it? On other threads, you have advocated not voting, but all this does is to give greater weight to the votes of other people who are being duped by political advertising and by the mainstream media, also controlled by Big Business.

The best strategy might be to adopt a policy of putting the sitting member last, unless he/she is someone like Kelvin Thomson, who really does understand the issues, is on the side of ordinary people and the environment, and deserves our support. Otherwise, put the other growthists as far down in your preferences as you can get them, with those who are most likely to win the closest to the bottom. Vote for the Stable Population Party or Stop Population Growth Now for the Senate, but always check their preference lists in case they get infiltrated. Because population acts as a multiplier of almost every other environmental or quality of life problem, it is worth focusing on the population issue first.

The votes of the major parties are quite close, so this might just get a politician thrown out of office, sending the message that Big Business can give them money, but not force ordinary people to vote for them, and tempting them to break party discipline in order to be re-elected. The new incumbent is probably just as bad, so rinse and repeat.

<< …you have advocated not voting… >>

Yes Divergence, as a matter of the principle that it is pretty damn hopeless, and strongly against the very purpose of voting, to vote for the slightly lesser of two evils, or to vote out the incumbent party, even though the alternative shows practically no signs of being any better!

But that’s no solution to the issue at hand….. unless a very large portion of the populace did it, and for the express reason of refusing to vote for non-sustainability-oriented parties.

I can’t see that there is a lot of point in putting the sitting member last. If lots of people did that, we’d just end up with the other one of the Liblabs power… with nothing gained!

And the despicable compulsory preferential voting system STEALS your vote for minor parties and independents and makes it count for whichever Liblab you put higher on the ballot paper, even when you specifically want to NOT vote for either major party!!

So we need to get rid of CPV first before we can get anywhere in the voting arena.

Meanwhile we just need to get the message out there as much as possible, Support Thomson, Carr, Dick Smith, Sustainable Population Australia, the Stable Population Party, support anyone else who comes out with sensible comments, denounce pro-expansionist antisustainabilityist rubbish wherever it appears, keep debating it on OLO and elsewhere, even when it means repeatpeatpeating yourself all the time…. and stuff like that!